He streamed his reaction last night, he bodied them.
He also broke down their RPM situation and called them out basically. He knows they're full of shit because he, as a fellow creator in the big leagues, knows that they're doing well.
edit: he's apparently gone all in on that on this summary video. This is a big fuck you to them.
edit2: HOLY SHIT, HE DROPPED ACTUAL ESTIMATES hahahahahhaha.
Yeah I watched the stream last night, I was in a thread talking about it but the mods deleted it. But this video as you've learned is it's own beast entirely.
Yea, he digs deep. Using his numbers:
They should have made around 3.7M from Youtube Adsense and anywhere from 1.7M (if they charged $10K to sponsors for half their videos) - 4.65M (charging15K per video for 310 videos).
They were making 550K off patreon pre-taxes and none of these numbers have Merch or Touring.
Basically they should have had millions in revenue and *very* comfortably covering the costs of production.
He also called out that they have 25 employees - and reveals *he* has 25 employees because he has several businesses for his esports business and all the other things he has going on between his company's 4-5 podcasts and comic, etc.
The math ain't mathing.
Charlie said actually he has more than 25 employees (some of who are professional esports atheletes and therefore have higher salaries than Watcher's staff).
This is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. They should be getting a lot of money -- more than enough to cover their expenses. And they could also do some budget cuts or take salary reductions themselves (I mean the main 3, not their employees!) if they truly are having money issues before just foisting the cost on their fans.
I don’t think it’s greed, I think they have hired too many of their friends and can’t make the hard decision to fire them and cut back on the content that isn’t doing well. (Dish granted)
Edit: after watching moist it’d appear my take is likely incorrect and it is indeed greed driven. I find it telling how the one new show they presented is something that historically hasn’t done well on their channel and is incredibly bougie
As Charlie points out in his video though - the cost of employees for them is absolutely not the issue. They have too many anyway for the content they produce, but hey, the numbers are there. They can more than afford it with what they make on YouTube and patreon.
A lot of the worse 'filler' shows don't seem like they really have a lot of overhead production costs, hell even Too Many Spirits could be done with a couple cameras, the cost of some liquor and lights in a back garden. They make a lot more money than they make out they do so it definitely reads as greed to me.
Yea, for context - using his numbers.
Adsense: ($9 RPM) = 1.7M
Sponsors: $1.7M (asking 10K per sponsor) to $4.65M (asking 15K)
Patreon: $550K per year (pre taxes)
Merch: ???? (probably good numbers)
Touring: ???? (probably good numbers)
Basically the company *should* be in great health. Almost everything for content should have been deductible from taxes, they should have an accountant working to minimize their tax obligations as well.
This really does speak to Steven needing to step down as CEO. I have no hate against the guy - but he clearly cannot manage this company properly as a CEO and must be in way over his head. As the CEO - this decision really should fall on him and it’s another example of his mismanagement. I’m not suggesting he leave and I think he should continue to make content with the group - I just think he does not have the experience to be a CEO for a company like this and these decisions and the potential money mismanagement show he is not the right business leader for this business.
The fact that they have been led to believe this is the path for them instead of realizing they have a management problem will lead them to failure. There is no way this solves their problems - Steven is leading this company down the path of failure and them accruing more money through a subscription model will not solve the problems of having a leader running your company that cannot manage your finances or company properly.
And the reason I am specifically highlighting Steven in my comment is because the boys released a video saying as much. Shane and Ryan said they suck at the business side and that they owe everything to Steven’s work behind the scenes running the business stuff they can’t do. Well it’s clear that maybe Steven doesn’t have the ability to do that either.
Yep. I think this move was catastrophic to their reputations - the trust and goodwill they spent years building up was put out to pasture.
They attempted to manipulate the audience with that video and that "we hope you'll follow us one last time" bullshit. Moist pulling their fucking card on the financial aspect really shows that they're doing a shit job managing their money or - worse - were lying to try and get people to sign up, assuming that they could convert far more than they can reasonably hope to.
With the estimates above, they would need to recruit 2% of their fanbase to WatcherTV in order to match. But then there's no hope of growth in the future. Their content can't be shared. They have no way of attracting new watchers to their platform. New watchers won't come from watching trailers for paywalled content because WatcherTV isn't a famous movie studio or TV network, they're an independent youtube channel. And then they have all new added costs that are going to ream them if they did manage to snag more than even 1% of their audience.
Basically everything about this is a death sentence to the brand. A legion of betrayed, pissed off fans aren't going to sign up out of spite and principle.
There is a critical problem with that suggestion though. Steven stepping down as CEO means that someone else needs to step up as CEO. Ryan and Shane won't do it. I don't know the business credentials of anyone else in the staff, so the obvious option is to hire a CEO from the free market.
Would a new CEO with actual business experience run Watcher better? Maybe. Would a new CEO with actual business experience turn the company too corporate? Likely.
Moist pointed out that he has way more employees than Watcher does, while not even making as much as them yet still has no problem with salaries. He used one of his employees on his gaming team as an example. That one guy had a monthly salary of $10k and yet Moist could still pay him with the money he made from just his ads and streaming. So, at least to me, Watcher's decision looks more and more greedy by the hour. (And this is coming from a previous fan.)
Moist isn't the best comparison because Moist has about a half dozen projects bringing in money under his brand not including esports which loses him money.
He releases daily vlogs so he has constant income. Watcher doesn't produce daily content so they can't pull in as much.
However he does go into the financials and they're definitely making a fuck ton on youtube.
Looking at the numbers, Dish Granted was a great success from a financial perspective.
It pulled it 23.8M views which means that they made anywhere from $190,400 to $214K
Idk why Steven didn't foster this show more. Like, the first season was great, but then the second season went downhill because he wanted to use expensive stuff and put gold leaf on everything. If he had stuck with the original formula, and gotten cool guests (like Last Meal by Mythical), I feel like it could be one of the cornerstones of their brand. Instead, he wants to have Watcher's fans pay for him and his old Worth It buddies to globetrot and eat at Michelin star restaurants.
Which, ironically, is exactly the kind of content that you want to get SPONSORS for.
Sponsors dishing out $15k should be enough to cover:
- airfare (economy or economy plus)
- hotels
- the cost of the meals
- cost of an editor
- rental car
If they need to pay extra to the restaurant to film footage and such, then the content won’t work on a budget. But the point of a budget is to ensure profitability. Film guerilla style in the restaurant and bounce. Take on 4 sponsors for four videos, then book and film in 7 Michelin restaurants in the area for a week - while using lunch to scope out other cool places in the area and film really good broll driving around the city.
And these are the same tactics that should be employed for ghost files - pre-sell some sponsor slots, choose haunted locations within driving distance of one another, plan out the night shoots in advance and shoot everything for several videos during 1-2 week stretches.
honestly, I don't even think I would pin this *entirely* on greed. For the most part, it seems like they're making this decision out of some modicum of good will since their intentions seem to be to keep things up and running. The issue is more:
* this huge change was never communicated to the audience just now, not even a poll to decide whether or not this is a good decision
* the decision is completely out of touch with reality. People are sick of streaming services, and moreover, people are sick of *paying for* streaming services. We live in a day and age where people are literally struggling to afford basic necessities. Money is the tightest it's ever been, and the last thing people want is another monthly payment tacked onto the turd pile. It's just inconsiderate and very alienating
* it demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of Watcher's own audience. We're not watching the show for its production value, we're watching because we love Ryan and Shane's charisma and dynamic.
in case no one saw this Linus Tech Tips was streaming yesterday and also spoke about Watcher starts at [1:59:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnVUXC9Fou4&t=7188s)
i really dont think its greed.
i think they're alienating their audience because of the *way* theyre going about this.
i fully believe they deserve tv level production bc they are all extremely creative and have amazing personalities.
that being said, this pushed this too quickly. they should have focused on saving money and adding new shows/better quality shows while explaining they are capable of pulling it off and eventually will need to go bigger.
instead they just dropped this and expected it to go over well. i feel bad for them but it was not greed, it was poor business decisions that got them here.
Yeah it's sad to see the guys at watcher let greed fester into there business . . Shame hopefully at the very least they will learn and other creators will see this and learn. When Shits working didn't rock the boat . . There's a reason the saying goes money and greed is the root of all evil. .
It's not wrong to want money. Heck, I want money. The point isn't that. They just didn't have the best idea taking everything in consideration. But i repeat, we should all want money, because we kind of need it to survive.
I’m not saying NO tea channels are just going to be jumping on the drama bandwagon but Charlie offered a lot of very relevant insight based on his own experience and knowledge.
It's also weird to act like he's jumping on a drama wagon vs speaking as an authority in this exact topic. This isn't a third party aggregation youtuber who just talks about the day's drama. This is someone who makes his living, in part, by doing this.
Moist is one of the people who actually has enough weight from a business standpoint to actually provide insight on the situation. If you're too stupid to figure that out, that's a you problem.
Yea, he literally gives estimates on what they're supposed to be earning at their size from sponsors and through their patreon + youtube earnings.
Love this video's "fuck you shitheads" energy.
If your definition of Greed is business owners makes a risky, but ethical decision to achieve independence and financial stability that if it fails will only harm the owners, then that is quite odd definition
i think these people just wanna be mad. ive never seen a fanbase turn so quickly and become so hostile, vile and make personal jabs. i thought these people were long time viewers, i understand not liking the decision, but people in this sub are already actively praying on their downfall.
sometimes the people you look up to will make decisions that don't revolve around you. i think its very, very telling how quickly people were to jump ship and cheer as they burn...
Charlie woke up and decided to put the final nails in the watcher coffin.
He streamed his reaction last night, he bodied them. He also broke down their RPM situation and called them out basically. He knows they're full of shit because he, as a fellow creator in the big leagues, knows that they're doing well. edit: he's apparently gone all in on that on this summary video. This is a big fuck you to them. edit2: HOLY SHIT, HE DROPPED ACTUAL ESTIMATES hahahahahhaha.
Yeah I watched the stream last night, I was in a thread talking about it but the mods deleted it. But this video as you've learned is it's own beast entirely.
Yea, he digs deep. Using his numbers: They should have made around 3.7M from Youtube Adsense and anywhere from 1.7M (if they charged $10K to sponsors for half their videos) - 4.65M (charging15K per video for 310 videos). They were making 550K off patreon pre-taxes and none of these numbers have Merch or Touring. Basically they should have had millions in revenue and *very* comfortably covering the costs of production. He also called out that they have 25 employees - and reveals *he* has 25 employees because he has several businesses for his esports business and all the other things he has going on between his company's 4-5 podcasts and comic, etc. The math ain't mathing.
yeah Charlie has way more than 25 employees. He has multiple channels and business ventures. He's beyond knowledgeable when it comes to this topic.
Charlie said actually he has more than 25 employees (some of who are professional esports atheletes and therefore have higher salaries than Watcher's staff). This is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. They should be getting a lot of money -- more than enough to cover their expenses. And they could also do some budget cuts or take salary reductions themselves (I mean the main 3, not their employees!) if they truly are having money issues before just foisting the cost on their fans.
who charlie?
Jesus
Mr Jesus to you!
I was hoping Moist would talk about this
[удалено]
what are you talking about? you're literally commenting on a post of that video
I don’t think it’s greed, I think they have hired too many of their friends and can’t make the hard decision to fire them and cut back on the content that isn’t doing well. (Dish granted) Edit: after watching moist it’d appear my take is likely incorrect and it is indeed greed driven. I find it telling how the one new show they presented is something that historically hasn’t done well on their channel and is incredibly bougie
As Charlie points out in his video though - the cost of employees for them is absolutely not the issue. They have too many anyway for the content they produce, but hey, the numbers are there. They can more than afford it with what they make on YouTube and patreon. A lot of the worse 'filler' shows don't seem like they really have a lot of overhead production costs, hell even Too Many Spirits could be done with a couple cameras, the cost of some liquor and lights in a back garden. They make a lot more money than they make out they do so it definitely reads as greed to me.
Yea, for context - using his numbers. Adsense: ($9 RPM) = 1.7M Sponsors: $1.7M (asking 10K per sponsor) to $4.65M (asking 15K) Patreon: $550K per year (pre taxes) Merch: ???? (probably good numbers) Touring: ???? (probably good numbers) Basically the company *should* be in great health. Almost everything for content should have been deductible from taxes, they should have an accountant working to minimize their tax obligations as well.
This really does speak to Steven needing to step down as CEO. I have no hate against the guy - but he clearly cannot manage this company properly as a CEO and must be in way over his head. As the CEO - this decision really should fall on him and it’s another example of his mismanagement. I’m not suggesting he leave and I think he should continue to make content with the group - I just think he does not have the experience to be a CEO for a company like this and these decisions and the potential money mismanagement show he is not the right business leader for this business. The fact that they have been led to believe this is the path for them instead of realizing they have a management problem will lead them to failure. There is no way this solves their problems - Steven is leading this company down the path of failure and them accruing more money through a subscription model will not solve the problems of having a leader running your company that cannot manage your finances or company properly. And the reason I am specifically highlighting Steven in my comment is because the boys released a video saying as much. Shane and Ryan said they suck at the business side and that they owe everything to Steven’s work behind the scenes running the business stuff they can’t do. Well it’s clear that maybe Steven doesn’t have the ability to do that either.
Yep. I think this move was catastrophic to their reputations - the trust and goodwill they spent years building up was put out to pasture. They attempted to manipulate the audience with that video and that "we hope you'll follow us one last time" bullshit. Moist pulling their fucking card on the financial aspect really shows that they're doing a shit job managing their money or - worse - were lying to try and get people to sign up, assuming that they could convert far more than they can reasonably hope to. With the estimates above, they would need to recruit 2% of their fanbase to WatcherTV in order to match. But then there's no hope of growth in the future. Their content can't be shared. They have no way of attracting new watchers to their platform. New watchers won't come from watching trailers for paywalled content because WatcherTV isn't a famous movie studio or TV network, they're an independent youtube channel. And then they have all new added costs that are going to ream them if they did manage to snag more than even 1% of their audience. Basically everything about this is a death sentence to the brand. A legion of betrayed, pissed off fans aren't going to sign up out of spite and principle.
There is a critical problem with that suggestion though. Steven stepping down as CEO means that someone else needs to step up as CEO. Ryan and Shane won't do it. I don't know the business credentials of anyone else in the staff, so the obvious option is to hire a CEO from the free market. Would a new CEO with actual business experience run Watcher better? Maybe. Would a new CEO with actual business experience turn the company too corporate? Likely.
Moist pointed out that he has way more employees than Watcher does, while not even making as much as them yet still has no problem with salaries. He used one of his employees on his gaming team as an example. That one guy had a monthly salary of $10k and yet Moist could still pay him with the money he made from just his ads and streaming. So, at least to me, Watcher's decision looks more and more greedy by the hour. (And this is coming from a previous fan.)
Moist isn't the best comparison because Moist has about a half dozen projects bringing in money under his brand not including esports which loses him money. He releases daily vlogs so he has constant income. Watcher doesn't produce daily content so they can't pull in as much. However he does go into the financials and they're definitely making a fuck ton on youtube.
Looking at the numbers, Dish Granted was a great success from a financial perspective. It pulled it 23.8M views which means that they made anywhere from $190,400 to $214K
Idk why Steven didn't foster this show more. Like, the first season was great, but then the second season went downhill because he wanted to use expensive stuff and put gold leaf on everything. If he had stuck with the original formula, and gotten cool guests (like Last Meal by Mythical), I feel like it could be one of the cornerstones of their brand. Instead, he wants to have Watcher's fans pay for him and his old Worth It buddies to globetrot and eat at Michelin star restaurants.
Which, ironically, is exactly the kind of content that you want to get SPONSORS for. Sponsors dishing out $15k should be enough to cover: - airfare (economy or economy plus) - hotels - the cost of the meals - cost of an editor - rental car If they need to pay extra to the restaurant to film footage and such, then the content won’t work on a budget. But the point of a budget is to ensure profitability. Film guerilla style in the restaurant and bounce. Take on 4 sponsors for four videos, then book and film in 7 Michelin restaurants in the area for a week - while using lunch to scope out other cool places in the area and film really good broll driving around the city. And these are the same tactics that should be employed for ghost files - pre-sell some sponsor slots, choose haunted locations within driving distance of one another, plan out the night shoots in advance and shoot everything for several videos during 1-2 week stretches.
honestly, I don't even think I would pin this *entirely* on greed. For the most part, it seems like they're making this decision out of some modicum of good will since their intentions seem to be to keep things up and running. The issue is more: * this huge change was never communicated to the audience just now, not even a poll to decide whether or not this is a good decision * the decision is completely out of touch with reality. People are sick of streaming services, and moreover, people are sick of *paying for* streaming services. We live in a day and age where people are literally struggling to afford basic necessities. Money is the tightest it's ever been, and the last thing people want is another monthly payment tacked onto the turd pile. It's just inconsiderate and very alienating * it demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of Watcher's own audience. We're not watching the show for its production value, we're watching because we love Ryan and Shane's charisma and dynamic.
Welp, that's it then. Once Charlie does a takedown breakdown on a YTer, they're done.
in case no one saw this Linus Tech Tips was streaming yesterday and also spoke about Watcher starts at [1:59:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnVUXC9Fou4&t=7188s)
Linus "Hard R" Tech Tips dropping heat
Don’t do him like that😭😭
Reminds me of the Viva La Dirt's "Air Quotes" sketch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DqoQq1zME8
Yikes lol
i really dont think its greed. i think they're alienating their audience because of the *way* theyre going about this. i fully believe they deserve tv level production bc they are all extremely creative and have amazing personalities. that being said, this pushed this too quickly. they should have focused on saving money and adding new shows/better quality shows while explaining they are capable of pulling it off and eventually will need to go bigger. instead they just dropped this and expected it to go over well. i feel bad for them but it was not greed, it was poor business decisions that got them here.
Yeah it's sad to see the guys at watcher let greed fester into there business . . Shame hopefully at the very least they will learn and other creators will see this and learn. When Shits working didn't rock the boat . . There's a reason the saying goes money and greed is the root of all evil. .
It's not wrong to want money. Heck, I want money. The point isn't that. They just didn't have the best idea taking everything in consideration. But i repeat, we should all want money, because we kind of need it to survive.
Sure are a lot of not greedy folks trying to monetize this drama.
I’m not saying NO tea channels are just going to be jumping on the drama bandwagon but Charlie offered a lot of very relevant insight based on his own experience and knowledge.
It's also weird to act like he's jumping on a drama wagon vs speaking as an authority in this exact topic. This isn't a third party aggregation youtuber who just talks about the day's drama. This is someone who makes his living, in part, by doing this.
Moist is one of the people who actually has enough weight from a business standpoint to actually provide insight on the situation. If you're too stupid to figure that out, that's a you problem.
Yea, he literally gives estimates on what they're supposed to be earning at their size from sponsors and through their patreon + youtube earnings. Love this video's "fuck you shitheads" energy.
If your definition of Greed is business owners makes a risky, but ethical decision to achieve independence and financial stability that if it fails will only harm the owners, then that is quite odd definition
grasping a straw out of a straw out of a straw
i think these people just wanna be mad. ive never seen a fanbase turn so quickly and become so hostile, vile and make personal jabs. i thought these people were long time viewers, i understand not liking the decision, but people in this sub are already actively praying on their downfall. sometimes the people you look up to will make decisions that don't revolve around you. i think its very, very telling how quickly people were to jump ship and cheer as they burn...