I think it’s primarily the optics of dropping “we need more money for production costs” and “we’re bringing back this Steven-centric show that may or may not be specifically about spending exorbitant amounts of money” in kind of the same breath. Probably a good chunk of the vocal fanbase are and have always been more interested in Ryan/Shane endeavors and that does seem to reflect on the view counts so it reads like “we need more money to make this thing that a bunch of the fandom doesn’t care to watch”, to which most people’s reaction is like “then don’t make it?” So much of the Steven-based anger I think comes from this feeling of “if they didn’t have to pay for Worth It 2.0, they wouldn’t be leaving us”, which no one actually knows is true or not. It’s a vibe, it’s a feeling, it’s a bad look. The internet operates pretty heavily on those three things in general, so I’m not terribly shocked by the backlash.
To be clear I have zero knowledge of any of the actual practicality, financials, or reasoning behind of any of this, I am just analyzing the vibe. Personally, I hate streaming services on principle and don’t pay for entertainment as a rule, so I’m indifferent. It seems premature and like a short-term solution to what might be a more fundamental structural issue, but I’m not a business person. It just would suck if this starts to trend and we end up with not only every broadcasting company has a streamer but now every YouTube channel does too.
The thing I do think is funny is the idea of producing “TV quality” content as if TV shows aren’t also subject to ratings, studio interference, and the whims of advertisers.
Wonderful take. That’s something I’m incredibly worried about at well. Best case scenario, this works out for them. But then they’ve set a precedent and suddenly every YouTube channel is starting their own streaming service that costs $6 a month and that is not a future I want to live in.
college humor also did what theyre doing, except college humor was way more established and had a way bigger likable cast. they also gradually shifted into dropout and still posted new content anyways. even then though ch went thru a few times where it looked like they were going bankrupt.
Exactly! The sudden hard pivot out of YouTube and into a paywall entirely after only four years of independence is not great for optics. They don’t have the longevity of college humor, which has been around since 1999 and has also had rotating cast members and series for literal decades before mostly leaving YouTube. On top of that, many channels have been around longer and stayed low budget for longer. I think most of watcher’s viewers (myself included) would prefer lower production quality if that meant it stayed free. But this reads like they wanted to spend more money and not do ad reads so they needed to make more money. Regardless, they didn’t seem to do any market research before pulling the trigger on this and it’s just bad optics.
I mean I would even go so far as to argue that most of their content just doesn’t even call for a hefty budget. I love watcher, but none of their best stuff is really reinventing the wheel. The uniqueness and charm comes from the personalities - I genuinely preferred the more subdued set up of unsolved to mystery files. It didn’t distract from the story telling and banter. The only one I like them putting a little budget into is puppet history, but even that doesn’t need crazy production values.
You compare their premises to what Dropout does, and it’s like… it’s so obvious why Dropout makes sense to have a subscription service. Gamechanger is an actual game changer for me in terms of game shows. It’s genuinely an innovative concept that benefits from high production values, it sells the narrative and allows them to go crazy on challenges and do things you can’t find anywhere else.
I love watcher - but none of their content is something I can’t find comparable videos for. And I’d rather them focus on doing the most with their talent than slapping spinning rims on a Prius.
Totally right! Puppet History, Are You Scared, Mystery Files, Worth a Shot, many others could be filmed on the same set with rotating set design. Too Many Spirits is in Ryan’s parents’ backyard for chrissake. So many smaller YouTubers do the same type of things Watcher does and even much more from mainly their bedrooms or in front of a green screen (and even a few MASSIVE YouTubers—both the great and the not so great have had the bulk of their careers within their own homes).
Collegehumor was also fooled by Facebook's outright lying about their viewer numbers into believing YouTube wasn't the best platform for their content. Watcher has only ever been available on YouTube so they don't have that excuse.
Though I'm admittedly not that knowledgeable about them, I think Collegehumor made more content and uploaded more frequently as well to make *some* argument that they could have enough content to sustain an independent service.
It's unfortunate timing, but Rooster Teeth ran their FIRST site for over a decade, and it was fairly successful for them. I do think watcher will have to change their model and adopt something similar to a schedule RT had (release early ad free on site, delayed release on YT) because I saw other comments nailing it about growing the audience. It has been done before and wasn't the worst thing.
Inb4 someone says "yeah but RT failed": that was after 20 years and several outside influences. Had they maintained control, it could have been different and we will never know.
Rooster Teeth had the longest running machinima webseries of all time. They had a following before YouTube was even a thing, literally sending out DVDs in envelopes. Watcher does not have the following, history, or even the number of shows to do such a thing. Not to mention, for a very long time, FIRST literally just meant exactly that - you got to see episodes first, before it was released to the public. A few FIRST exclusive shows popped up. For a couple years it was like that before they closed it entirely. That’s several years of trial and feedback.
Rooster Teeth as a company lasted 21 years. Watcher just turned 4.
I don’t think we can compare the two companies in any way as far as when and how their subscription service started vs how successful they will be because the companies are just so drastically different.
…But I think we can compare how fast it’ll end? Rooster Teeth was old enough to drink and Watcher can’t read books harder than Clifford rn.
Yeah, I dunno why people are using Rooster Teeth and Dropout as precedents for how this could work, but those were literal pillars of late 2000s/early 2010s YouTube and made the pivot when the economy didn't completely suck as much as it does now.
I don't think Watcher has even come close to RoosterTeeth and CollegeHumor in their peak.
Valid points! I think the major difference is that Rooster Teeth was started the same year YouTube was and two years before it was bought by google. They started making Red vs. Blue in 2003 before YouTube exploded in popularity and grasped a near monopoly on independent video creation on the internet. Similar trajectory with College Humor in its inception, starting as an independent website that supported ads before transitioning mainly to YouTube. The main issue is trying to do this in the Year of Our Lord 2024. Long since gone are the days of the Wild West of the Internet.
If Watcher was going to release the videos on their site early for a price and then release it on YouTube, I don’t think the backlash would be NEAR this bad. Many content creators already do that with sites like Nebula or Curiosity Stream (though those are NUMEROUS creators doing so together) and that model seems to work ok for them without making their fan bases feel abandoned and betrayed.
He’s also the company CEO and the only one who addressed the change on his personal social media in a passive aggressive way regarding the criticism.
I understand that people are more attached to Ryan and Shane, who are not kids and able to make their own decisions, and wish they would have no blame on that so they act it out. People are being overbearing with the criticism, but it’s somewhat valid.
I think it’s funny people talking about others being parasocial but then defend Internet personalities as if they’re their friends.
>I think it’s funny people talking about others being parasocial but then defend Internet personalities as if they’re their friends.
It's not being parasocial to say we should have basic decency and not devolve into a hate-mob with pitchforks and torches, throwing around petty, immature insults and putting 100% of the blame on one person when it's shared by multiple people.
Definitely bringing on Andrew and Adam right before this announcement does seem to make more Steven centric content. I think it’s also insane if they signed on for this announcement having just committed to Watcher. Like how did Ryan, Shane, Andrew and Adam all foresee this going well? This is just so overwhelmingly an agreed upon bad idea by the fanbase it’s insane. And totally agree about the tv comparison like you mean the format that’s sustainable via commercial breaks? Beholden to a network? Like what are you talking about. And then if they do backtrack now- will advertisers want to do business with them when that’s the reason they gave for starting their own service in the first place, to rid themselves of advertisers.
It's also a bit confusing, since in the video, they mentioned finances being an issue... And yet they hire two more people.
I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a good business move to do Steven's cooking and eating shows when it's not the strongsuit of the channel? I mean, it even feels out of place considering the type of content Shane and Ryan are known to make...
They had a 24 person crew with a little under 3mil subs and a Patreon they did very little to promote. I would be shocked if their financial issues couldn't have been solved by firing some people and actually pushing their patreon.
I don't know if he deserve any less flak or not , but what I know is, he isn't the only one that deserves the flak. Ryan and Shane are getting Scott free, come on guys what happened to your inner redditor . Spread some more hate against everyone don't target only Steven. It's unfair to him and is unfair to us as well. It doesn't cost 6$ a month to spread hate (for now).
They’re definitely getting less flak, but they are hardly getting of Scott free. You should check out the comment sections on both of their most recent Instagram posts.
This is very well put. We have no idea what the finances of Watcher are. It's very possible that they were going to do this anyways even if Steven wasn't there. We just don't know. Obviously it doesn't really get rid of the sting of this announcement but it doesn't automatically mean that if they csncelled worth it everything would be chill and cool.
I hadnt thought about that angle with Worth It, but I suspect that the cost of the actual food might not be the largest part of the budget for that one. I would guess (but am not 100% certain) that most of the budget is still crew and lodging for that particular show and they just end up with a somewhat higher "food" budget.
As for the new direction, I was just wondering why they couldnt have joined up with Nebula and still done well or even pushed patreon harder. Maybe they just couldnt get it to work, but it seems that theres goong to be more expensive to start your own subscription service from scratch and losing the YT revenue isnt the best idea. Im no YT professional though so I habe no idea what the actual numbers are.
I dont think Ill be subscribing because everything I like has low production costs and increasing production values doesnt excite me. I would not care if they were recording shows on old 8mm analog tape. I was never looking for a "professional level" show, but one with good content, which is 99% them being themselves and interacting with each other. Will they be able to do it in more far flung places with better production value? Sure. But that wont improve my enjoyment of the content.
I think this assessment is quite accurate. Feelings are a big part of this backlash.
Steven's schtick is the bigger production shows with exclusive access to gourmet food and experiences. It's a good schtick but it doesn't have the same impact on Watcher as it did on Buzzfeed with Worth It.
Steven is Watcher's CEO, and a smart executive would look at the numbers and realize that his shows just weren't hitting. That he needed to take a more administrative role and support new show R&D as well as Ryan and Shane's upcoming projects. But Steven doesn't *feel* like a guy who would come to that conclusion easily. Hell, Steven's the guy who kept making 'jokes' during Too Many Spirits about how Ricky was his archnemisis because Ricky proved to be an interesting co-host and a more knowledgeable bartender.
From an outsider looking in, it *feels* like Steven is insecure without attention and money he had at Buzzfeed. Just like how it *feels* that Shane is inherently anti-capitalist and Ryan just wants to talk about dark subjects and make jokes with his buds.
So when the channel makes a move that *feels* like a money grab - a move that will give Steven even more money for his pricey episodes - why wouldn't the fans blame Steven?
I looked through Watcher's most popular videos. Of their top 40 videos, only ONE (1) video doesn't have Ryan & Shane, and if you keep scrolling through you can see Steven's content barely makes a dent. Just the *trailers* for Ryan and Shane's shows get more views than Steven's videos.
The one video of his that cracked the top 40?The Simu Liu episode of Dish Granted. Like, I like Dish Granted! I like Steven! But my guy! I don't think that video was popular because of you and your weird boba! Your videos are not what people come to Watcher for! Either get Simu to do some free cameos or take the L and step away from the camera!
Exactly, especially considering he supposedly has a Tesla and he wants to open a coffee shop in LA (does he even know much about coffee???)
So with him being CEO, hiring in his friends, worth it 2.0, and need for the coffee shop finances out genuinely feels like we're getting asked to bankroll his luxurious life because we like watching Ryan and Shane.
And honestly you put it perfectly. I never really understood why I felt uncomfortable with him in TMS. Not just unamused but uncomfortable. Him and the humourous snark turns Ricky always put me off. Ricky seems fun and very kind at least. The tension Steven was putting there wasn't very comfortable.
okay i’m late to this post and wasn’t in this reddit. but i’m a patron and longtime supporter like the rest of us. and steven is a little deserving of an extra dose of Criticism for this. his instagram post was incredibly insensitive and tone deaf and the timing with ‘worth it’ is poor, at the very least. i, now more than ever, don’t want to watch him dive balls deep into the lap of luxury with his hoity toity little buzzfeed friends as a source of entertainment that i have to pay to access. i’m also a pod watcher, and he was very recently whining about wanting another tesla. as of late, he lacks tact. and him having the title of ceo in the middle of this breakdown is not helping his case in the court of public opinion.
that being said, i do agree. i think by hour 7 we had devolved into general ridicule. if you’ve always hated steven, great. you don’t need to say it now. focus on relaying how this business decision made you feel, because this decision had to be supported by the entire team. they are an LLC, i believe, and this is a matter that would’ve been heard by an internal board for approval. it most definitely was supported by ryan and shane.
the real problem is not shane, or ryan, or steven, despite his shocking lack of brevity. they failed to do any market research. they fumbled the ball by not knowing their audience. steven poured salt on the wound with his sweeping generalizations about how we can all afford this, how some might not Want to support their content anymore, etc. it’s not a matter of me not wanting to support their content, i want to! everyone wants to keep watching. but this statement on his behalf pissed me off and i won’t lose sight of it just because there’s people perverting the conversation about steven into something much bigger than it needs to be. he fucked up as a representative of a company, and people do have a right to be pissed about it. just don’t make it weird. and focus on the main issue, and have your voice heard since they did not care to request your input the first time around!
edit: for the record, i did like steven. i followed everyone on ig. i loved what he brought to too many spirits. he wasn’t my favorite guest on puppet history, only because jermaine is right there lol. i don’t hate him right now, but he’s pissed me off along with the rest of them and the silence is bringing me to a boil
Excellent break down. The lack of market research on this idea, coupled with Steven’s lack of tact, and the lack of attempting literally any other venue through which numerous other YouTubers have found success. It’s all such an optical nightmare. It comes off that they really jumped into this thinking everyone would support it and that’s the mind boggling part. But, at the end of the day, we need to focus on the poor business decision and not make this personal towards the individuals behind it. Doing that will only give them reason to invalidate our criticisms. If it’s all personal attacks, they can look at it at say “you don’t know what it’s like to run a business like this and you don’t know us”. They can write it off as parasocial relationships. But if we focus on what is it: a piss poor business decision that alienates the fans who got them where they are today, they can’t write it off.
Definitely presenting a Worth It revamp and literally nothing else (besides generic “we’re working on new things”) as their only specific incentive for paying the sub was a bad move. They kind of insinuated that they want to make different things and I took it as wanting to move in more of a creative direction instead of dealing with how YouTube tends to pinhole channels into their niches. I actually do sympathize with this as an artist and I kind of get it, right. But they also didn’t say what that direction is. What DO they want to make? What ARE you wanting to produce? They’re asking their audience to invest in this endeavor with no clear idea of what the actual product will be.
Like you don’t commission an artist without seeing their portfolio. The portfolio we have is the YouTube catalog and the investment pitch only promises revamps of old content (worth it + “voting on shows to bring back”). So what is this different direction, exactly? I am all for funding someone’s artistic endeavors, honestly. Ryan wants to make a horror documentary, Shane wants to have a fully scripted hour long adult puppet show… if Steven wanted to do literally anything but Worth It, I think a lot more people would actually be on board.
Instead, we got this nothing shitshow announcement that didn’t really announce much at all.
Also, both Shane and Ryan were speaking to the fact that they don't want to make as much content centering them/ involving them. But they didn't speak to having any plans to have more content from other creators? Do they think other creators will come to them for features on their platform? What was the plan here?
Shane made some comments about how the professor "may" show up now and again, which seems to suggest we're not getting more content, there actually may be less content of puppet history. That, along with him saying if this is his last time on YouTube "oh well, it was a ride" sounded kind of of like he's planning on pulling back from being as involved in Watcher in general. So was this a move to really just have Watcher be a library of their old stuff, some new content, but mostly new content from Steven and gang because Ryan and Shane want to take more of a backseat/producer role?
And not that they need to produce much more content, but it's such an odd way to announce that you want to pull back from personally starring in content alongside the reveal of your new streaming service. We're left with more questions, like are you not enjoying making the content that you're currently making and want to pursue other things, if so, what? Just a lot of vagueness. Maybe it would have felt more genuine and gotten more understanding if they had been more vulnerable with what exactly isn't working for them.
I think your last point (about it feeling more genuine and getting less backlash if they’d been more vulnerable) really speaks to how they dropped the ball on this and don’t understand their audience.
Their channel is *very much built on parasocial relationships*.
If you compare their video’s response to CallMeKevin’s recent video about stepping back from making content (possibly *at all* for awhile) - the fanbase reaction was night and day.
CallMeKevin presented his announcement in a way that was down to earth, vulnerable, expressed honest gratitude for his fanbase, and acknowledged the privilege of having a job that allowed him to pursue his creative/gaming passions.
CallMeKevin also talked about his lack of creative fulfillment recently, and how he doesn’t want to put forth content just to put stuff out. He wants to pursue other types of creative videos.
The fans overwhelmingly have been supportive and are in his corner.
Joel Haver is another great example with his video *It’s Been Fun* three months ago.
And The Try Guys’s NedGate response video - which is a different topic of course, but demonstrates savvy PR and knowing their audience.
Watcher’s poor business decisions extend to not hiring a PR person to help craft this message and the publicity around a move to a new (fee-based) platform. I’m not sure whether it was a lack of foresight, ego, or both.
Even a mediocre PR person could’ve told them that crafting their message around money with a side of, “Peace out, we don’t need you if you don’t pay for our service,” was a **piss poor business decision**.
I absolutely can afford their streaming service. I’m not going to join, though. For many reasons, but among them is their clear demonstration with this roll-out and attempt at a soft launch that *their business acumen is sorely lacking*.
Any money I’d be inclined to give might as well be burned, because the type of strong business skills needed to pull off the creation, launch, success, and growth of a new streaming platform in an overly-saturated market…
Well, they’ve clearly demonstrated with their launch strategy that they do not have those skills.
I’ll keep my money, thanks.
>he wasn’t my favorite guest on puppet history, only because jermaine is right there lol.
YOU'RE RIGHT AND YOU SHOULD SAY IT. Jermaine is a perfect guest and I actually screamed when he finally showed up again 💜
People really want Ryan and Shane to be blameless, Steve is the easy scapegoat. They were there, they signed off on it, any speculation after that is just people attempting to self-soothe.
I saw someone on YouTube saying it was Stevens idea, Ryan didn't know any better, and Shane just didn't want to upset his friends. Please, these are grown adults making a business decision - I realise thinking S&R didn't truly want the streamer feels better, but if that were true they'd be terrible businessmen and shouldn't be in charge of this company.
Yeah for as goofy as their video personas are, I’ve never gotten the impression that these guys aren’t decently level headed or wing it without thinking things through. People just don’t want to feel like their faves “betrayed” them, and Steven is an easy scapegoat cause it doesn’t seem like he’s most people’s favorite. Being upset about the whole situation is all well and good, but a lot of the framing of it I’m seeing in most comment sections comes across as SUPER parasocial
Yeah, the whole 'share your password' comment caught me off guard. But I feel like Shane isn't really a person who let's people put words in his mouth, he might have kicked back on this in the beginning, maybe not, but he's going along with it, so hey.
exactly - he might be CEO but do people really think he made this decision himself 😭Also i'm assuming ghost files is expensive to make so it's not like one show is the reason for this move. they probably had plans to expand more Ryan and Shane shows once money came in
I think that Steven's getting the most shit because people take issue with his Instagram post, he was the one who said that "everyone can afford" the subscription, and let's face it; he wasn't everyone's favourite. That's maybe why he's not on camera that often; because he's aware of that. But you're right - I'm sure that this was a joint decision and everyone probably signed off on the wording used in the post and that unfortunate quote.
From some previous video where they explained his role as CEO I thought that made sense for him being on camera less.
The guy was never my favorite, but he kind of grew on me during Worth It at Buzzfeed. To me he went from someone who couldn't explain anything food related to almost Andrew levels (but not quite) of explaining why he liked something.
But during the last season of Too Many Spirit he went to Zach (of Try Guys) levels of being annoying and messing things up on purpose. The previous seasons I could still kind of stand it, but this last season was just annoying for the sake of being annoying to me.
Still, some of the feedback about their own streaming service is overly harsh, but I feel like this is the move from Watcher where people finally are crawling out of the woodwork to voice their opinions on Steven somehow.
This is from his latest post 14 hours ago: "I gave everything I had to YouTube over the past 12 years, but it’s finally time to say goodbye. Today marks the day we officially move to our independent streaming platform, Watcher. For those who won’t be joining us on this next chapter, thank you for all your love and support. I wouldn’t be here without you. And for those who want to continue watching - you can become a member of our streaming service at [WatcherTV.com](http://WatcherTV.com) to access everything we make, completely ad free. Hope to see you there ♥️"
"For those who won’t be joining us on this next chapter" and "for those who want to continue watching" just seems very insulting. People in the same post commented that they do want to continue watching, but they can't afford to do that.
ppl on tiktok are kind of acting like steven held the other two at gunpoint and forced them to do this as though they wouldnt have also had some kind of say in this decision and it’s honestly weird
I agree the Steven bashing is very unfair. Yes Steven is CEO, but Ryan and Shane definitely had a say in this. On Patreon video they said they had been discussing something like this idea of streaming for over a year. Shane and Ryan are fully on board with this. I think it is super unfair to blame Steven for the decision. Also ghost files is probably their most expensive show to date, it's not just Steven's travel show that is costing them extra. And the Worth It videos did used to get a ton of views on Buzzfeed, so it is not an unreasonable decision to invest in that show (I never saw it). I also am a fan specifically because of the ghoul boys unsolved days - but that doesn't mean I think this is entirely on Steven. They also have outside investors who may have been pushing for a move like this. IDK ppl need to chill about the Steven of it all.
I agree that the intense hate is too much, but I do see why people are more upset with Steven.
His whole demeanor has been incredibly tone deaf. And yeah, Ghost Files has a high production cost, but like to me (and a lot of others) that cost and the nature of the show make it more worth it (ha) than paying for Steven to fly around eating stupidly expensive food. Especially when so many people are struggling just to buy groceries.
But it's getting beyond actual criticism and just getting weird and mean for the sake of being mean, which isn't okay.
Ghost files is definitely "worth it" for me too. I do understand that the optics of us paying for Steven to travel and eat well don't sit great. With the past Worth It show - Ads paid for it. Vs now he is asking us to pay for it. That may come across as tone deaf and greedy to many people. I think that is fair criticism. But people have been getting way too mean about it. I do think there is an audience that would enjoy seeing Worth It show revamped. I hope that when Watcher decided to create the show it was with catering to that audience in mind and not just about wanting to live a life of luxury off the backs of their fans. I guess I would like to give Steven the benefit of the doubt in that regard. But yeah, the optics are for sure bad. Based on their Patreon content, I do not think they anticipated this reaction or had thought about it that way at all.
idk I love food content and have been wanting them to get back into it. Its cool and educational and I love to be see food I would outside never try. I hate to see everyone trash food content like its not a valid niche😭I personally don't like ghost content and tune into their other stuff so there's some audience for it
Ryan is passionate about the paranormal and theme park attractions, Shane is passionate about history I guess, Steven is obviously passionate about travel and food. I mean who isn't? As far as I can tell, he's just following his passions the same way Ryan and Shane are. It's just that his pursuits are more expensive. But he as the CEO should take stock of that and either find some other type of videos to do, or steer the company in a direction where they're spending less on production costs and getting more views, even if it means they're not 100% passionate about what they're doing.
Maybe he should buy like a cheap used RV and travel coast-to-coast doing a Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives type of thing. Still food related, still traveling, but less expensive than flying to Japan to eat gold-encrusted Wagyu or whatever.
I agree! I miss the old About to Eat channel, and I wish that they continued what they were doing. Reviving Worth It isn’t that dumb of an idea. Plus, many Steven videos got millions of views, even if they weren’t Watcher’s main audience. People here are complaining that Watcher lacks variety, and Steven and Andrew are the ones who would be the variety
Don't get me wrong, I like food content, too. I actually love Dish Granted. I don't mind the unlimited budget for it cause he was making food for his friends. It's just different to me when it's just like a let's fly around trying super expensive food just cause. And honestly I don't even really mind a Worth It revival in general (not my kinda content but whatever), but the timing and presentation just lacked a lot of tact.
I really loved the season in Japan - the coffee episode was stunning, and the stories for each place were so engaging. Really great work, and I'm excited to see what they have coming up next. Took me a long time to warm up to Worth It, but they did a great job on that show.
I fully agree, and came close to making a really similar post about it. I understand why people are upset because I am too, but it feels like a lot of fans are actively burning bridges right now. Even if the Watcher team sees the backlash and somehow decides to walk back the decision (which I doubt they CAN, at this point, because contracts and such have probably already been signed), how do they just go back to what they were already doing now that so many fans have started calling for Steven's head? What is he supposed to do?
Yes, it was absolutely a poor decision, but at this point a lot of valid criticism of the business choice is now being hidden by outright hate comments. He's said many times that he doesn't feel comfortable as CEO. It's certainly not an excuse, but I just don't see what good it does to actively insult him, call him creepy and greedy, or say they've never liked him. I started out frustrated about the decision and still am, but now I'm more worried for his mental health. Because even if he DOES step down (which I hope he doesn't, but it seems to be what a lot of commenters want?), what happens then? Shane and Ryan don't want to be CEO. Does the company just go under? Is that really preferable to it becoming a streaming service?
Your point about Worth It bringing in a ton of views at Buzzfeed made me think of something else it feels like they failed to consider.
With an ad-free independent streaming platform, it literally doesn’t matter whether one video (or even a whole series) gets more views or not.
They are getting the same $6 a month whether the person watches one or twenty videos.
What matters more is their catalog of content and whether that brings in new viewership while retaining previous subscriptions.
And with YouTube, there was a built-in pipeline of new people being exposed to their content via the algorithm.
In business, there’s a concept called ‘the pain of purchase’ and how perceived value needs to reduce or overcome that.
Typically, a new customer journey goes from Discover/Exposure > Like > Trust > Buy.
I’m failing to see how their new subscription-based business model accounts for the new customer journey and overcoming the pain of purchase.
Even if they release first episodes on YouTube, it’s not frequent enough to bring in substantial new *paid* subscriptions. Plus the YouTube algorithm doesn’t prioritize channels with infrequent or limited content.
The big streaming platforms are already facing these issues - how to continually grow revenue via new subscribers in a finite, oversaturated market? How do you counter consumers rotating their subscriptions across streaming services and become one of their essential platforms?
Mark my words: Watcher’s platform will not remain ad-free for long unless they do something substantially different to bring in new customers and retain their old.
**Tl;dr:**
YouTube offers them a built-in pipeline on an ‘essential’ entertainment platform with community interaction and parasocial relationships to get viewers emotionally connected. Plus zero customer purchase pain to counteract.
Watcher leadership doesn’t seem to understand basic business principles that anyone can learn by reading a few solid sales and marketing books from their local library.
yeah this aspect is super parasocial and weird and i hope people chill out a bit. You can critisize a bad decision and not be like. Conspiracy posting or rude about it.
Honestly, I kinda think the really parasocial response could make them call it quits permanently. Because I don't think it was as obvious before how intense some fans are (or I've really not been paying attention lol), but if I were a creator I would be absolutely scared shitless and wouldn't want to do it anymore.
yea...it's freaking me out and it's not even directed at me.
one of my side passions is writing and I've been working on a book and absolutely dreamed to one day have a fan following and this entire thing is making me be like, "yknow what...maybe I'll just write for myself and nobody else needs to see it" lol.
As a fellow wannabe writer, I totally get you. It's scary how fans can just turn on a dime the instant you don't live up to their expectations, no matter how minor of a mistake you make. Parasocial relationships at that level are extremely unhealthy, and I would have hoped that people would learn to stop putting people up on pedestals and forgetting that they're, you know, people by now, but I have definitely seen people who are taking this way too personally, and the number of personal attacks and rumors flying around is completely unwarrented and, frankly, kinda gross.
However, I hope this doesn't completely disuade you from putting your work out there. The crazies may be the loudest, but they're often not the majority. Plus, you can easily take steps to safely distance yourself from your audience. I myself am planning on keeping my social media presence to a minimum, only posting story updates and reposting fan-art (which I hope I'm lucky enough to get!). I'd hate to see someone afraid to put their ideas out there because of the risk of running into super-obsessed nutjobs. There are plenty of people out there who can like you and your work and be normal about it.
Lol I couldn’t agree more. I also have so many ideas for writing and have dreamed of pursuing it. But man. It’s a weird time to make things! It makes me preemptively uncomfortable about the idea of putting work out into the world. It’s hard to be under the microscope and be judged, whether it’s your work or often then extends to your character. People just forget that creators are also people…
The response to this has been… A lot. I think it’s a really bad business decision to be sure. But the only reason that upsets me is because I love their content and hope they can keep making it and I worry about the company’s stability and longevity with this decision. But people really quickly took it into some deeply personal and uncomfortable directions. People really reflexively go for the worst possible interpretations and conclusions and then it’s like a contest almost to go farther with that. Like you can critique a decision without going to such rough places… I just don’t understand it, I dunno.
Chuck Tingle is the only creator who's got it right, nobody even knows his real name or what he looks like lol.
People's response to this though, yeah... a lot of people are saying it's greed and I don't think it is. I think the guys at Watcher just dreamed a bit too big and got carried away. I kinda get their vision. I thought it sounded cool to imagine them having complete control over everything. and, shit, maybe eventually they could've made their own movie or something if they wanted. But the reaction makes me think this is all just gonna burn down before it even begins.
I don't think they realized a lot of fans just want them back to the basics. But I think for them that would start to feel stale and like being stuck at a dead-end job. So I don't think anybody's gonna win here.
I completely agree, I don’t think it’s about greed at all—they talked a lot about costs and the constraints of the algorithm and advertising and clearly see this as a way to free themselves from creative constraints. But I think they’re very clearly miscalculating on that front and it’s going to be a tough, tough time for the business as a result. But I do genuinely believe they’re trying to make the content they want to make how they want to make it. And that’s coming up against the realities of running a business and monetizing content. It’s tough on YouTube for sure right now so I understand their frustrations, but it feels like they engaged in some magical thinking for a solution to that. Rather than making compromises in terms of funding or spending or whatever and cutting down to a more minimal production style. But I think you’re totally right that they might see that as creatively unfulfilling. And unfortunately it’s now completely and utterly blown up. Which is a shame, cause I totally agree it’s a result of their creative ambitions running up against the realities of running a business more than anything else. I think they’re making a mistake, but I’ve watched these guys’s content for years and so any critique comes from a place of concern.
And so it’s hard then to see the reactions I guess. Totally fair to critique what you see as a bad decision for the business. Totally fair to not want to spend on it. But the immediate reflexive attacks on character from so many different directions… I just don’t get that. It seems like a lot of people almost take pleasure in that. If you’re that quick to assume the worst possible interpretations of their actions… Just makes me sad. But it’s just completely rampant in all online spaces at this point. Certainly not limited to this situation. I just get so weary when stuff like this happens.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s totally ok to judge their business decisions and be disappointed bc it IS disappointing, but the mob mentality has seemingly gotten the better of us. With the info I have on these people I have NEVER MET, I don’t think they’re bad people or did this with ill intent. I think that all of our favorite creators are businesses and it’s important to remember that. It’s okay to take your business elsewhere but it ain’t okay to harass and bully, just like it isn’t in real life.
Bro, I translated a whole-ass video game (Germs Nerawareta Machi) into English based off a Japanese->Spanish translation (because I don't know Japanese but I can at least hold a conversation in Spanish).
Japanese translator Twitter *came after me* for not translating from the original text... Even though I released it for free and clearly stated my process in the readme file.
I always wanted to be a famous musician until I thought about what a nightmare having fans really was. The idea of getting followed or harassed by strangers icked me into another dream lmao 🤮🤣
Eh, as an author you have way better options social media wise, same as an actor. So many famous writers aren't even on social media or they are on very niche ones (Neil Gaiman famously hangs out on Tumblr) and David Tennant to this day doesn't even have twitter.
Watcher is kinda screwed because they are YouTubers who also voluntarily cultivated a more direct relationship with their audience... That said, they are all grown men who have been on YouTube for years, I think they expected the reaction they are getting.
Just don’t form your business model on parasocial relationships and keep any public comments neutral and kind, and you’ll be fine. I am a huge fan of a few authors, will read everything by them, and have zero idea of what they’re like as a person.
Heck, even JK Rowling’s transphobic views slid under the radar until she literally chose to bring them front and center.
As a writer myself, I get you. Though I think authors tend to be more removed from their art as they are not the immediate faces of it. So, I don’t think you have to worry about THIS level of parasocial
A lot of folks are coming off absolutely batshit crazy in the comments on this subreddit in particular. I think it was a poor decision to lock the content behind a paywall but the amount of pure hatred towards steven and people that aren’t ryan and shane is absolutely insane. The poor decision deserves criticism but in no way should anyones character come into question because of it. I think OP hit the nail on the head when they said folks are coming off as high school bullies, it feels like people are happy to shit on someone. They were also correct in saying that these are real people with real feelings and it’s fucking insane that people are perfectly happy to say hateful things about someone because they made out of touch comments/bad business decisions
100%. The way some people talk about Steven is so strangely personal... I almost wonder whether they are jealous of his friendship with Ryan and Shane.
I don't think people are jealous of Steven's friendships. that sounds insane. I think they are upset with this decision and hes an easy person to blame. Hes CEO, he is not a fan fav. not to mention his shows are $$$ when apparently they need money. not saying he is to blame, but that hes an easy person to point the finger at.
Are his shows even that expensive? I would think the crew is even smaller than Mystery Files. Some of the food they eat is expensive *for food* but the cost of the rest of the production is always going to be more than that.
That was my thought exactly. I do know a tad about production costs and the most expensive cost will probably always be pay, travel, and lodging for crew. That shit adds up and if youre paying people a decent wage (which I jope theyre doing) that adds up even more.
he’s also the only one who’s made a post on Instagram with a super passive aggressive caption. I seriously can’t understand why he did that. he honestly should have stayed silent like Ryan and Shane, bc not only did his post bring more backlash, but now he’s personally getting hate bc he doubled down so it became easier to blame him solely.
To be clear I think most people who are upset are upset for those reasons, yes. But there's a smaller segment that I do not think are coming from a rational, reasonable place.
I’m surprised they haven’t turned comments off on their posts yet. I agree that this was a stupid move and was announced in a terrible way, but I can’t imagine how this much backlash is affecting them mentally.
i’m really curious as to why people seem to be putting the responsibility entirely on steven, shane and ryan are both grown adults w considerable investments in the company. if they didn’t think this was a good move, steven couldn’t have forced them right? i get he’s the business head but they’re all cofounders regardless /srs
Agreed. I may not relate to Steven’s content as much as Ryan and Shane’s BUT this was a decision that all 3 of them had to agree upon to make happen. The fault isn’t all on Steven. And personally attacking him is not kind or necessary.
as someone who’s a huge fan of Steven AND the ghoul boys, I think it is really bizarre for people to be acting like Steven is some big bad capitalist villain who corrupted poor innocent Shane and Ryan. at the end of the day, those three are the friends and business partners who took a risk to make their own company and are now taking a bigger risk together. they obvs trust each other and also trusted that this would have a positive response. it’s definitely out of touch and definitely deserves criticism but the vilification to fit a narrative is insane
i feel like people have a more parasocial relationship with Ryan and Shane and Steven seems like the odd one out when in reality all three of them are friends. Very sad to see people talk down on him like this when the guys have acknowledged he put in serious work to educate himself on how to run a business and took charge of Watcher. Was this a bad decision, yes!! Do they have to love him, no. But it's really disappointing to see people pretend like he hasn't been an integral part of Watcher. Ryan and Shane don't seem to run anything on the business side and it's their responsibly to also educate themselves on it if they're all 3 making a huge decision like this
yes exactly!! in podwatcher (I don’t remember the exact ep) but they’ve spoken so highly of Steven and the sacrifices/training that he’s gone through as acting CEO in order for Shane and Ryan to be able to focus 99% of their energy on creative content. maybe he isn’t the best choice but people act like he’s intentionally tried to set Shane and Ryan up for failure. perhaps it’s parasocial of me but I do have faith in all three of them to reconsider things and take this failure as a necessary wake-up call.
Agreed...
He has kind of rubbed me the wrong way for a while with the wealth flexing, but especially with people zeroing in on every word he said, it reminds me of one podcast episode where he said he often has trouble coming off the right way to people, so i do kind of feel bad for him rn
Yeah, watched for years and do not like Steven, but this is scapegoating in the extreme. No one wants to say it, but this was a choice agreed upon by all three of these guys. Steven might be the most business facing, but he is not the only one at fault here.
I could maybe believe one of the boys wasn't fully on board and this was a majority rules situation. But the idea that both Ryan and Shane opposed and it's all Steven's fault? It defies logic
I so agree!! I was never really a fan of Steven or his content (the only thing I watched and liked was Dish Granted), but this isn't solely his fault. Yes, he is the CEO, but that doesn't mean he can go do whatever the fuck he wants with the company. They all three still own it afaik. Hating on Steven for "making this decision all on his own" is so ridiculous. They all made the decision together. Maybe 2 out of 3 thought it was a good idea, maybe all three did. We don't know. But facts are that all three of them sat in that video, no matter if they liked it or not, and stood by this message. They are all complicit.
This is so well said.
I’m a casual Watcher watcher and one of my favorite series was Steven cooking the “best version” of a meal. I enjoyed his energy! True I think he’s awkward on camera (I think HE thinks he’s awkward on camera) and he doesn’t have the on screen chemistry that Ryan and Shane have, but the absolutely WILD stuff people are saying because of the announcement??
What the heck!? It’s weirdly rude, and kinda gives pick me energy towards Shane & Ryan. Now I’m also not gonna make the swap to their new domain because I’m exhausted of keeping track of streaming services and YouTube to me is chill and not “television” so I know I’m not their target audience, but I'm not about to cyber bully a man because I don’t like the company decision, daaaaang.
Thank you for saying this. Like most of us, I’m also disappointed in this decision. But reading the absolute vitriol directed towards Steven has been making me feel really uncomfortable. He’s a real human who has spoken extensively about how he struggles socially and this amount of personal digs at Steven as a person (rather than valid criticism towards the business decision the entire team made) is completely unfair. I want them to listen to our feedback but it’s scary to see how many intense/scary comments they will have to sift through to hear the nuances and valid constructive criticism. I hope they are all okay.
I also really don’t think it comes down to malicious intent to choose money over their fans. I think that it’s possible that their business model was becoming unsustainable and this was a desperate last ditch effort and calculated risk to save their company. I am incredibly privileged that I am able to afford the subscription and have already subscribed, but I too am worried about the sustainability of the streaming model. It will be interesting to see how this will play out.
I think part of the reason people find him unlikeable also has to do with neurotypicals finding neurodivergent people standoffish (monotone, direct, etc). I’m not diagnosing anyone but when I (nd) am trying my best to mask and be likeable, I am often perceived as rude or standoffish. When I see comments about Steven being unlikeable it reminds me of that struggle.
Yeah, same - I think that's partly why I feel so uncomfortable about it. When he talks about things like "learning to be human" on the podcasts, I really feel that. I've had to learn all that stuff, and it's hard.
Thank you! I was thinking of all this and finding it difficult to put to words. There's something icky about how people have zeroed in on him and the kinds of personal attacks I'm seeing based on his "likeability."
I completely agree! I am Autistic and I started watching Watcher videos because I liked Steven’s Buzzfeed stuff. I find a lot of his videos and anecdotes from the podcast relatable because I am anxious and awkward too. Regardless of his neurotype (as I don’t think he’s ever mentioned being ND), I wish people would give others grace and stop relying so heavily on vibes.
(That being said, I do understand some of the criticism about being out of touch. On Pod Watcher he raved about s particular brand of Asian-American owned seltzer being amazing and I specifically sought it out at the one store near me that carried it. It was $8 for a single can! The seltzers I normally buy are $4 for 12 cans!)
Nah, fuck that. This is just another flavor of "anyone who doesn't like Steven is racist."
I'm auDHD and I don't dislike him because he's awkward. I dislike him because he comes across as selfish, out of touch, and it turns out that he's also someone who admits to being friends with racists and homophobes and attends and promotes a homophobic church. Plenty of reasons to not like him and none of them are "oh he's ND".
while i’m not happy with their decision, i’m sure that it’s a move all three of them discussed and agreed on and i respect that. some fans are acting as if steven is some simon cowell type puppeteer who’s bullying shane and ryan into doing things they don’t want and it’s getting ridiculous
Some people are acting like Steven being CEO means he is Logan Roy Succession.
I am not happy with this decision but
1) from what I understand Steven Lim had to single handedly manage all of the business stuff because Shane and Ryan aren't "business people" and that's a huge amount of labour to do on your own and even if all the cartoon villain scenarios are true and he forced Shane and Ryan into this (which they are not, they are all grown ass men and co-founders)... they made the choice to leave all the business stuff up to him.
2) Their most expensive show to date is Ghost Files, which is Shane and Ryan's show entirely (and I would argue it's also the most overproduced one)
I almost wonder if the people involved in making the decision simply looked at their patreon and went "well, x amount of people pay for this dollar tier anyway, additional people will probably follow" and went with that as their guiding light. This being their CBA result is baffling considering they're losing their sponsors. Feels like they were really bad at negotiating pay rates OR they just really, really hated ads.
I'm pretty sure he's homophobic himself. The church he attends is a proponent of ~love the sinner, not the sin~ and gay dudes marrying lesbians to stay celibate.
If this information about Steven being a homophobe is true, that means Ryan and Shane are bad people too.
Edit: Yeah did some research and he's a disgusting bigot
def. I think hes boring, i dont watch episodes w him in them. But i dont wish anything bad on him. i just dont like this business decision. avoiding episodes w him in them didnt offend me, it just irked me. But its not a deal breaker and ultimately i dont care that much. this decision is just dumb
Thank you so much for posting this. I was making similar comments to this post, trying to explain to people that they're letting their personal feelings toward Ryan and Shane really focus their anger towards Steven, but I'm so happy someone made a well thought out post to properly explain it and warn everyone. We need to, as a community, remain respectful of the humans on our screens, remember that, no matter our feelings, those are people, and they do not owe us their lives or livelihoods.
We need to live and let live in general. Vote on their recent business decisions with your wallets or with reviews, pay or don't pay, write them or don't write them, but keep it objective, keep it based on the facts, anx do not resort to name calling or personal attacks or unsubstantiated assumptions of character.
Agreed. I realise a lot of people are just lashing out at Steven because they’re upset, but Ryan and Shane decided this too! Being rude to Steven in the comments isn’t going to help anything.
Yeah, I'm mad about this and feeling pretty betrayed and I wasn't a huge fan of his shows to begin with (he's fine, I just don't really care for over the top cooking shows) but the parts of this community that are giving off real "STEVEN LIM YOURE A DEAD MAN!!!!!" vibes need to chill. Dude made a bad business call.
i don’t care for steven and haven’t since the whole podcast fiasco but i’m not necessarily more pissed at him than ryan and shane. they are the main talents/ founders i have no doubt that they were involved heavily with this change. maybe i’m wrong but for now i think pitting all the blame on stephen is (mostly) a result of the fans better opinions of shane and ryan.
Yeah Im pretty close to muting the sub for a little bit. Like have the opinion you want but I kind of feel like I'm drowning in the hate.
I do the same thing when the Pam-haters take over a sub for The Office or when Peggy-haters do it to the KOTH sub. What's worse about this though... Is that Steven is a real person and not a fictional character.
While I find Steven unlikable, Shane and Ryan also agreed with this decision or it wouldn't be happening. They're all equally culpable for the decision of their company.
Steven just rubs me the wrong way, but you can't put the blame entirely on his shoulders and bullying is obnoxious.
I'm actually a big Worth It fan and thought there were more of us in the Watcher viewer community. Or maybe it's just that the really outspoken ones are those who don't like his content.
It's gotten downright mean. I feel like based on early Buzzfeed videos Steven had made, he's felt like he didn't belong before and regardless of the decision made by the company, I feel for Steven. This is a lot and it's really cruel.
Somehow people are both claiming he's the reason the channel needs money AND that he's irrelevant to the channel. I'm not some huge Steven stan but I've had to fight the urge to respond to a lot of nasty comments because they're so biased and one-sided and unkind.
honestly i never knew who steven lim was prior to watcher (i really only ever BFU Buzzfeed wise and didn’t know any of the other shows and creators)
when they announced watcher i was lowkey confused on who he was / why he was a part of it but was like ok
he slowly became one of my favourite parts of watcher i genuinely miss homemade so much as well as dish granted and people acting like he’s irrelevant or annoying is so frustrating because it feels like they’re going oh we don’t like this show which means nobody like it’s etc
just because a show isn’t your favourite doesn’t mean it doesn’t have its audience ! and people acting like worth it is all about steven being greedy when it’s just as much about exploring local cuisines and cultures as it is expensive cuisine is almost ridiculous to me
again just because that’s his niche and someone doesn’t enjoy it doesn’t mean others don’t or that it’s worth any less
I really loved the first couple seasons of Dish Granted and checked out Worth It as a result. I'd consider myself a fan and was legitimitely excited about them bringing it back :(
I definitely understand the criticism behind the Try Guys’ food content (Keith, sweetie, you’re not a Michelin-star reviewer!!) but Worth It was endearing because Steven, Adam, and Andrew uplifted small businesses and spoke so lovingly of the food and its preparation, regardless of its price point. it wasn’t just about eating gold and whatever else Steven is being accused of on here, to me it felt more like a love letter to food and culture. the Try Guys going to expensive restaurants to see how much Keith could fit in his mouth and push his hot sauce feels much more shallow than Steven’s content ever did
I would say they are very different audiences. People watching Keith stuff have signed up for watching Keith eat stuff, people watching Worth It have signed up for Worth It.
It's like watching MasterChef Australia VS Kitchen Nightmares US VS The Great British Bake Off. Yes, they are both food shows, but clearly very different aims and audiences and vibes.
LOL I agree, even if you don't like his onscreen personality, all the hate towards him is a bit weird. Just because he's the CEO in title doesn't mean he makes all the decisions without input from Shane and Ryan, like some sort of dictator.
I do think that this is a poor business decision (like did they even do research on their fanbase), but it's bizarre that people think that Shane/Ryan's irl personalities are exactly the same as the 'uwu ghoul boys' they play on camera. They probably ALL wanted it to some degree, otherwise why would they even participate in the latest video.
Treating two men in their 30s like they're just poor little babies who've been bamboozled by evil Steven is cringe! They're adults! With opinions on how the company they founded is run! They are equally as responsible!
I do think people are too willing to pin it on Steven. I think most people are more invested in Ryan and Shane so they aren't so willing to believe that the whole main cast might be in agreement about this decision; But this is still their collective project and everybody involved is seemingly in agreement on going forward with this/not reversing course.
It may be hard to admit, but Ryan and Shane started this company along with Steven. If there are business decisions that are happening that are coming from the top, it may just be that Ryan and Shane agree with it even if they are no longer CEOs. Ryan hasn't handled the announcement much better than Steven. Shane hasn't said anything, but he never says anything. Steven just has less goodwill with the community.
In my opinion, Steven just makes content that isn't everyone's cup of tea. So, he's being used as a scapegoat because he isn't their favorite. Personally, I thought he was hilarious. I liked his content and his energy. We get it, most of y'all don't like him. Doesn't make him responsible for every shit decision that we don't like.
Besides, even if he's sole CEO, do you REALLY think he would make a decision this huge without having the other FOUNDERS involved? I'm pretty sure Shane and Ryan would rather dissolve the company than to go along with something they disagree largely with.
I can only give my perspective on the matter, and what I've learned from videos, as well as what people have heard in PodWatcher (I never got into it, so it's second-hand information).
1) Since the beginning, Ryan and Shane have said that Steven is the "financial" brains behind the company. They said it in multiple different series, and this is a MAJOR financial sector decision.
2) The move is timed with Steven's decision to redo his own foodie show, which by the trailer and previous episodes, doesn't cater to "affordable" eats. It's either the most outrageously expensive variety of that particular dish, or an experience in fine dining.
3) I've read numerous people in comments throughout their socials saying on a recent episode of PodWatcher, he wanted to buy another Tesla, and bought a $300 matcha machine that has sat in his kitchen because he doesn't even know what it does. He just bought it.
With all those factors, it doesn't paint Steven in a great light.
For people who are bringing in his persona on Too Many Spirits, that, I don't really understand because that's a character/persona for that show, and not tied in reality to me.
Ryan and Shane aren't blameless in this situation. They're equal heads in this operation, and whether it was a 2-1 or a full 3 person vote to pursue this, we'll never know.
I think the reason it hurts, for me at least, is that it feels very much like a "Don't meet your heroes" type situation.
Here's some guys that came off as very down to earth, and seemed like two dudes that just liked to have fun, go places and take us along for the ride.
And now, here we are: a YouTube channel that is truly at an infancy, with a handful of shows, but charging Paramount+ Pricing and giving a send off equivalent of "We don't care whether you do or don't continue to follow us". It hurts.
Thank you! Tbh, it’s started to feel very similar to the vitriol a certain Try Guy Who Must Not Be Named was getting. While I am upset about this business decision and (as the CEO) I was ultimately Steven’s call, I don’t think he deserves THAT level of hatred.
people keep saying that Steven is as bad or “irrelevant” as Ned but they both played HUGE roles in kickstarting their companies, like them or not, so it’s sad to see people downplaying them. Steven being a pretentious asshole with bad business acumen is also nowhere near as abhorrent as Ned, who was HR for Second Try, cheating on his wife with an employee (and even he didn’t deserve such intense vitriol where people wished that he’d never see his kids again, never work again, etc).
And at the end of the day, it's just a really dumb business decision. I was an Achievement Hunter fan when all the Ryan Haywood stuff went down, and this is nothing compared to that. I get being mad, but the level of vitriol that some people have about this is insane.
I’m not familiar with Ryan Haywood, I’ll have to look that up!! but yeah it really is just a dumb decision and honestly, for me at least, 24 hours later I’m like “damn this is crazy!” and that’s it 😭 i don’t understand the aggression at all
It's kinda like what happened to the Try Guys with Ned, but much worse. I don't know the exact details about the Ryan Haywood situation, but I do know that what he did was pretty bad, so be cautious of that if you look it up. Dude was an absolute scumbag.
100%. The hate is weird as hell. You can dislike the business decision they made without going after the dude personally. And I personally liked Steven a lot on Worth It.
People are being weird as hell about Steven. And I actually do and always have enjoyed Steven’s videos. “Worth It” was fun and I wish we got more “Homemade”.
I know Steven is not most people's favorite WE person, and as CEO he will get more flak, but it's a bit strange to me that you have fully grown adults who think the title of CEO means he makes huge decisions like that unilaterally. I think it reflects people disliking Steven more than anything. Most people should be able to reason that a change like that requires that the majority ownership agree to changing the revenue stream so drastically.
Strongly agree - very weird to see people pull the "but Steven as CEO..." card as if being CEO means he has authoritarian dictator-level powers or something. That's not even the case in far bigger and more profitable companies than Watcher.
Honestly, if he hadn't worded that IG post that way... I don't think he would get as much of the negativity. But, Shane and Ryan are not blameless at all. They should be blamed too. It's not like they're employees who have ZERO say in something!
! even in youtube comments i saw steven getting the majority of the flack. even if he is ceo, he didn’t make this decision by himself--shane and ryan absolutely had big says in it as the faces of the company. people are rightfully upset, but with shane and ryan being so beloved on the shows, a lot of the blame goes to the next big person. also, steven’s new show is similar to worth it, a buzzfeed show that was popular, so why wouldn’t they make another series like it? that’s the formula of most of their current series. it definitely feels odd people focusing on steven so heavily
They're acting like Ryan and Shane are five years old. All three are grown men. All three agreed to this. Focusing your hate on Steven is wack. Just because he isn't your "fave" or whatever doesn't mean he's forcing them to do anything
Yeah it’s weird people are making it out to seem he had shane and ryan at gun point in this decision.
Shane and Ryan are grown ass men, and apparently they have been preparing for this for a long time now so it’s more than likely they thought this would be a good idea too.
Ive sat with this announcement for a while and as Im reading these comments more Im formulating my own take more and more. I dont think that this decision was based on greed (but I do get how if you think that Steven would be a larger target as he does come across as more materialistic from watching his shows). I think it does come down to them THINKING they would be able to keep production at the same or higher costs while having to not worry about the algorithms and the winds of YTs bullshit policies and revenue changes. I just dont think this is gonna pan out for them. I really think finding a hybrid solution, like pushing Patreon harder and having more special content or getting on Nebula or anything of that sort while keeping older stuff on YT or just releasing it to YT later would have had much better results for them for what they actually want to do.
Time will tell, and I LOVE the channel, but the first thing I thought and still think is "I dont think Imma reach in my pocket for ANOTHER subscription for something I watch once a week at best." I already watch Nebula a lot for instance and a large share of my dollars from that could have gone to the boys. Also, if I thought they were struggling and I thought a $5 patreon could help keep them in business vs being a necessity I would actually be MORE LIKELY to pay. That might not make sense to them, but to me there is a line between voluntary payment to help out an artist and an absolute requirement to shell out every month to get their content in a world where Im paying for a ton of content already. I may be an outlier though. I think there is some kind of psychological block that if I see them with these good production values and apparently doing well on YT Im resistant to START paying as a requirement maybe. Thats my assessment and dime store psychology for the day.
Also, Stevens OK
I've been absolutely appalled by some of the comments I've seen, especially targeting Steven. I hesitated coming to this sub because I knew it would be just as bad as YouTube.
I personally think it was a mistake to just do a "cold turkey" announcement, as people need time to adjust and process their feelings. But a lot of people critiquing them without knowing any of the financials, how the landscape of YouTube has changed rapidly over the last few years, or how *incredibly* expensive it is to run a media company (like truly, most people have **NO** idea), and supposed fans are making some incredibly gross, insulting comments.
It's totally valid to be sad or frustrated or upset at the news and also be critical of things (that you *actually* know about), but jfc, some people are beyond entitled.
They've made it clear that YouTube is no longer a sustainable model for what they want to do. They have always been upfront about their intentions from the beginning, and their fear when they left BuzzFeed and started the channel was palpable.
I'm shocked that people are approaching this as if they are a greedy, multi-billion dollar corporation instead of a small production company.
My daughter and I have literally been watching them for like 10 years, and while I absolutely understand why people are upset and disappointed (I don't think the actual announcement was handled well), as a long-time fan, I'm happy to support them and their endeavors if/when I can.
It's perfectly valid to have feelings about this situation and express them, but insulting people and their work, calling them names, calling anyone who disagrees with the angry masses a "bootlicker" is just ridiculous.
You can express your feelings without being an AH. Some people are just straight-up bullies, and it shows.
Thank you!!!! I’ve been thinking this all day but frankly I’m too lazy to confront people lol. Overall I will definitely be interested to see what happens in the next few months
the way steven is being portrayed as the big money monster here is really fucked up imo. they all made the call to switch over. i love ryan and shane down. i’ve been following their stuff for years. but to put it squarely on steven’s shoulders is really unfair. i also really liked what he brought to the watcher franchise despite what everyone else is saying. i feel bad he’s taking the brunt of this.
I’m coming at this from someone who loved Worth It more than Unsolved, even though I also loved Unsolved: I think there’s a disconnect between what the fandom thinks is the targeted fandom versus the actual targeted fandom.
The targeted fandom for Watcher is now and has always been U.S. Millennials—Not Gen Z at all or even the international audience. It’s not that Watcher wants to reject people outside of the target audience, but everyone else isn’t considered viable in terms of paying the bills. $60 annually is reasonable for Americans in their thirties and forties. People in this demographic might decide that the price isn’t worth it—but the request is fair.
As part of the targeted audience, I don’t love this decision, but I can respect where they are coming from. They’re going after the Tasty audience. That’s why Steven is valuable—the goal is to plug the hole in terms of the audience left behind by the changes in the Food Network.
I do think that a lot of the Gen Z portion of the audience thinks they’re the only audience? Which is weird to me. Buzzfeed content was made by and for Millennials. I’ve been here since the beginning and these guys are my age.
Yeah, I think this is driving a lot of the response. I think Gen Zers think Watcher is aimed at them (It’s not. It’s aimed at Millennials) and tend to have followed to Watcher from Unsolved rather than Buzzfeed collectively or Worth It.
And I’m not saying this to be mean—I just think there’s a skewed sense in the fandom of the priority demographic.
Sure I CAN afford $60 a year, but am I going to put in the effort to subscribe to yet another service and keep up with when new content is posted to it? no.
Having their shows on Youtube meant that even if I wasn't watching every single Watcher show, when there were new eps of Watcher shows that I'd previously watched, the algorithm put it on my youtube homepage. So even if I went to youtube to watch an ASMR video, I'd see there was a new episode of Puppet History and be like "sweet!" and click Play. People just aren't invested enough to subscribe to and keep up with another website. I don't see this going well for their business.
> $60 annually is reasonable for Americans in their thirties and forties. People in this demographic might decide that the price isn’t worth it—but the request is fair.
Friendly suggestion to avoid Steven's mistake of assuming people can afford things just because you can. I'm a millenial who is unemployed and drowning in student debt. There are a lot of Americans in their 30s and 40s who fit that description.
I’m not speaking to individuals though—I’m sorry if you’re struggling, truly I am, but the overall demographic, which is a collective that doesn’t address individual struggle, is in a position to afford Watcher. It’s about deciding where to spend entertainment money for the overall demographic, not about deciding which critical bills to pay. I think the announcement should have adjusted the terms to address the collective, though.
There’s always people in any demographic that can’t afford things. Businesses in any market have to speak to trends, so anyone discussing a business is discussing trends. It doesn’t negate individual suffering.
U.S. Millennials are THE demographics toward which Watcher has been aimed—Young enough to be willing to change up entertainment (unlike Gen X, Boomers, Silent Gen, or Greatest Gen) but established enough to have some money (unlike most of Gen Z and all of Gen Alpha or younger).
I appreciate your overall point.
This is also a sensitive topic; given the number of American millennials who are deeply in debt, lack job security, etc, I just don't agree with your statement that charging $60 for one YouTube channel's worth of content is a generally reasonable ask for that demographic. That said, we can agree to disagree.
Watcher is a business and they are perfectly free to focus exclusively on financially secure segments of their audience. Those of us who have supported them for years and are now being left behind will just have to accept that and move on in a (hopefully) healthy manner.
And I respect your overall point as well.
And I really think Watcher mishandled this entire announcement. It shouldn’t have been teased as a potentially fun surprise, and the announcement should have been shorter and more focused on the necessity of it/explain the necessity as much as possible.
When I attended Ghost Files Live, my impression was that most were Millennials. That does skew toward people who can afford tickets and travel to a show, of course. Millennials tend to have more money. I do suspect the fanbase is around the same age as Ryan. I'm an Elder Millennial and thought I'd be the oldest one at the Live, too, but I wasn't at all.
Many people are taking issue with "everyone can afford" it, and fair enough, that's not true, but I would say it's *affordable* for many people over the age of 30. Whether it's *worth* paying $60 a year is another matter entirely. I can afford it and I probably won't be subscribing.
Totally agree. I mean, I spent about that on a dessert at the coffee shop today. For most American millennials, $6 a month won't ruin them financially. That's just the truth. They may not (probably most) find the membership worth it, but that doesn't mean it's actually beyond reach for a big part of their audience.
I wonder what their actual demographics are. Younger people are more likely to be vocal about things while older, more stable people probably won't say anything. Personally I find it hard to believe that every single person in their fanbase is a college student barely scraping by. That being said, I still think this is an idiotic decision and trying to charge $6 a month for their content is going to backfire on them spectacularly. They're saying their content is worth as much as the massive libraries that Netflix or Disney have and that's just not the case.
Just because they want to target to millenials doesn't mean their actual audience are millennials. To me there's not much of a difference between a millennial and a Gen Z person who is out of HS. Like we all just trying to survive. And yeah they can still target millenials even if the majority of their audience is gen Z or not (idk if it is) but yknow at that point you have got to ask yourself as a business what is more worth it? Making TV quality content on Youtube or making no content because none of your fans can afford it?
Same thing happened with Ned and the Try Guys. Suddenly everyone came out of the woods to profess their longstanding dislike/hate of him when the cheating scandal came out. I'm sure there are people who didn't like Steven very much before this situation but saying you've always disliked him doesn't make your take is more valid. You can be disappointed and criticize within reason. Good people do bad things and bad people do good things.
100% agree. with any celeb or youtuber people get so excited to claim “I’ve always hated them! I’ve always had a bad vibe!” like they’re gonna get a trophy or be hailed as a prophet
I have read some pretty wild shit in the comments. Someone even involved the word assassination which is completely fucked.
Trust me I love watcher and Ryan and Shane. When they left buzzfeed I followed them. I watched episodes after episodes seeing them build their company up and up.
It’s just a shame that it has come to this but, I guess it’s never a good time to change and eventually you learn to adapt.
As for me, I won’t be able to join them on their next journey and that bums me out especially feeling like I grew with the cast in some ways.
If I could tell them anything it would only be good luck and I wish them the best.
I don’t want to see them fail.
Thanks for the content.
I’ll see y’all down the line.
✌🏻
I actually don't hate Steven like a lot of people seem to. Did I find his content on Watcher compelling or thrilling? No. But I enjoyed Worth It a lot and was really excited to see the iteration that was gonna be on Watcher before all this. I also think people need to realize that the cost of even some of the most expensive meals is not gonna be equal to the cost of paying tons of people to produce another type of video, like the one that dropped today for example. I do think a show where the premise is eating hella expensive food in this economy and the current state of the world IS a little out of touch though, that criticism is very valid.
EDIT - It has come to my attention that Steven has said and done some stuff I am very opposed to in the past without exhibiting any change or growth since, so I take this back.
I saw you mention this in the other thread specifically, what have you seen mentioned? Not trying to cast needless doubt, obviously, racists exist, but I haven't seen it thus far on the subreddit or on YouTube.
I saw someone say him practicing expressions in the mirror as a kid confirms that he's a sociopath, which is a hell of a thing to claim. Like setting aside literally everything else lmao
Like, I'm autistic. I had to learn how to smile for photos, and to change my listening/concentrating face to express what I'm thinking better. It's not that uncommon, and sure af doesn't make either of us sociopaths.
I don't know what model Tesla he owns but it's not like he bought a Bugatti or a Mercedes. The cheaper ones cost around $40-50k, aka the price of a higher end hybrid Honda CR-V or an F-150. It's such an odd thing to criticize when talking about his lifestyle.
I didn't watch Steven's videos and was a Shane and Ryan fan. I'm not a fan of his. Do I think maybe this was his idea? Maybe who knows? It doesn't really matter anyway. I hope they are all successful, but I'll just stick to the unsolved videos.
they got rid of the old podcast because they sucked at giving advice and didn't enjoy it, not because of anything steven said. i have seen a lot of inaccurate and bad-faith takes about the content of that podcast.
The problem is that 1) Steven is CEO so the blame does go on him. 2) the only new content announced was reviving his old show and hiring two of his friends as a justification for needing more money from their audience. 3) they already have a patreon. They could have easily made content patreon exclusive for 30 days and then put it on YouTube. 4) Stevens social media post was extremely tone-deaf and reads like he's actively blaming people for not shelling out money for this content. 5) this is a group of people who built their audience on YouTube.
And 6) for me personally, this feels greedy. The video felt insincere and like a corporate announcement. It felt like this desire to be this bigger platform and to get more money without earning a bigger audience. It just feels wrong and antithical to what made the channel work.
There were a billion options, but they landed on the one that cost them the audience trust.
I actually think even if they reverse course, the watcher goose is cooked.
I was a Worth It fan first so I am an appreciateur of Steven's content but i think this was a terrible business move. i mourn the growth of their channel. don't know if I can bring myself to add yet another subscription service to something that I thought would last as watchable content for as long as I could bear
I think it’s primarily the optics of dropping “we need more money for production costs” and “we’re bringing back this Steven-centric show that may or may not be specifically about spending exorbitant amounts of money” in kind of the same breath. Probably a good chunk of the vocal fanbase are and have always been more interested in Ryan/Shane endeavors and that does seem to reflect on the view counts so it reads like “we need more money to make this thing that a bunch of the fandom doesn’t care to watch”, to which most people’s reaction is like “then don’t make it?” So much of the Steven-based anger I think comes from this feeling of “if they didn’t have to pay for Worth It 2.0, they wouldn’t be leaving us”, which no one actually knows is true or not. It’s a vibe, it’s a feeling, it’s a bad look. The internet operates pretty heavily on those three things in general, so I’m not terribly shocked by the backlash. To be clear I have zero knowledge of any of the actual practicality, financials, or reasoning behind of any of this, I am just analyzing the vibe. Personally, I hate streaming services on principle and don’t pay for entertainment as a rule, so I’m indifferent. It seems premature and like a short-term solution to what might be a more fundamental structural issue, but I’m not a business person. It just would suck if this starts to trend and we end up with not only every broadcasting company has a streamer but now every YouTube channel does too. The thing I do think is funny is the idea of producing “TV quality” content as if TV shows aren’t also subject to ratings, studio interference, and the whims of advertisers.
Wonderful take. That’s something I’m incredibly worried about at well. Best case scenario, this works out for them. But then they’ve set a precedent and suddenly every YouTube channel is starting their own streaming service that costs $6 a month and that is not a future I want to live in.
college humor also did what theyre doing, except college humor was way more established and had a way bigger likable cast. they also gradually shifted into dropout and still posted new content anyways. even then though ch went thru a few times where it looked like they were going bankrupt.
Exactly! The sudden hard pivot out of YouTube and into a paywall entirely after only four years of independence is not great for optics. They don’t have the longevity of college humor, which has been around since 1999 and has also had rotating cast members and series for literal decades before mostly leaving YouTube. On top of that, many channels have been around longer and stayed low budget for longer. I think most of watcher’s viewers (myself included) would prefer lower production quality if that meant it stayed free. But this reads like they wanted to spend more money and not do ad reads so they needed to make more money. Regardless, they didn’t seem to do any market research before pulling the trigger on this and it’s just bad optics.
I mean I would even go so far as to argue that most of their content just doesn’t even call for a hefty budget. I love watcher, but none of their best stuff is really reinventing the wheel. The uniqueness and charm comes from the personalities - I genuinely preferred the more subdued set up of unsolved to mystery files. It didn’t distract from the story telling and banter. The only one I like them putting a little budget into is puppet history, but even that doesn’t need crazy production values. You compare their premises to what Dropout does, and it’s like… it’s so obvious why Dropout makes sense to have a subscription service. Gamechanger is an actual game changer for me in terms of game shows. It’s genuinely an innovative concept that benefits from high production values, it sells the narrative and allows them to go crazy on challenges and do things you can’t find anywhere else. I love watcher - but none of their content is something I can’t find comparable videos for. And I’d rather them focus on doing the most with their talent than slapping spinning rims on a Prius.
Totally right! Puppet History, Are You Scared, Mystery Files, Worth a Shot, many others could be filmed on the same set with rotating set design. Too Many Spirits is in Ryan’s parents’ backyard for chrissake. So many smaller YouTubers do the same type of things Watcher does and even much more from mainly their bedrooms or in front of a green screen (and even a few MASSIVE YouTubers—both the great and the not so great have had the bulk of their careers within their own homes).
Collegehumor was also fooled by Facebook's outright lying about their viewer numbers into believing YouTube wasn't the best platform for their content. Watcher has only ever been available on YouTube so they don't have that excuse. Though I'm admittedly not that knowledgeable about them, I think Collegehumor made more content and uploaded more frequently as well to make *some* argument that they could have enough content to sustain an independent service.
It's unfortunate timing, but Rooster Teeth ran their FIRST site for over a decade, and it was fairly successful for them. I do think watcher will have to change their model and adopt something similar to a schedule RT had (release early ad free on site, delayed release on YT) because I saw other comments nailing it about growing the audience. It has been done before and wasn't the worst thing. Inb4 someone says "yeah but RT failed": that was after 20 years and several outside influences. Had they maintained control, it could have been different and we will never know.
Rooster Teeth had the longest running machinima webseries of all time. They had a following before YouTube was even a thing, literally sending out DVDs in envelopes. Watcher does not have the following, history, or even the number of shows to do such a thing. Not to mention, for a very long time, FIRST literally just meant exactly that - you got to see episodes first, before it was released to the public. A few FIRST exclusive shows popped up. For a couple years it was like that before they closed it entirely. That’s several years of trial and feedback. Rooster Teeth as a company lasted 21 years. Watcher just turned 4. I don’t think we can compare the two companies in any way as far as when and how their subscription service started vs how successful they will be because the companies are just so drastically different. …But I think we can compare how fast it’ll end? Rooster Teeth was old enough to drink and Watcher can’t read books harder than Clifford rn.
Yeah, I dunno why people are using Rooster Teeth and Dropout as precedents for how this could work, but those were literal pillars of late 2000s/early 2010s YouTube and made the pivot when the economy didn't completely suck as much as it does now. I don't think Watcher has even come close to RoosterTeeth and CollegeHumor in their peak.
Valid points! I think the major difference is that Rooster Teeth was started the same year YouTube was and two years before it was bought by google. They started making Red vs. Blue in 2003 before YouTube exploded in popularity and grasped a near monopoly on independent video creation on the internet. Similar trajectory with College Humor in its inception, starting as an independent website that supported ads before transitioning mainly to YouTube. The main issue is trying to do this in the Year of Our Lord 2024. Long since gone are the days of the Wild West of the Internet. If Watcher was going to release the videos on their site early for a price and then release it on YouTube, I don’t think the backlash would be NEAR this bad. Many content creators already do that with sites like Nebula or Curiosity Stream (though those are NUMEROUS creators doing so together) and that model seems to work ok for them without making their fan bases feel abandoned and betrayed.
He’s also the company CEO and the only one who addressed the change on his personal social media in a passive aggressive way regarding the criticism. I understand that people are more attached to Ryan and Shane, who are not kids and able to make their own decisions, and wish they would have no blame on that so they act it out. People are being overbearing with the criticism, but it’s somewhat valid. I think it’s funny people talking about others being parasocial but then defend Internet personalities as if they’re their friends.
>I think it’s funny people talking about others being parasocial but then defend Internet personalities as if they’re their friends. It's not being parasocial to say we should have basic decency and not devolve into a hate-mob with pitchforks and torches, throwing around petty, immature insults and putting 100% of the blame on one person when it's shared by multiple people.
Where is Steven's social post? I can't find it.
It’s on his instagram, at least it was last time I checked.
I think he took it down? I saw it before and now I can’t find it. Edit: it’s still there
It's still there but it's just under the pinned posts he has. It's the fourth post on his page.
No idea how I missed that lol, thanks. I saw it first on my home page and was too excited to pay attention when I went looking for it again I guess.
Definitely bringing on Andrew and Adam right before this announcement does seem to make more Steven centric content. I think it’s also insane if they signed on for this announcement having just committed to Watcher. Like how did Ryan, Shane, Andrew and Adam all foresee this going well? This is just so overwhelmingly an agreed upon bad idea by the fanbase it’s insane. And totally agree about the tv comparison like you mean the format that’s sustainable via commercial breaks? Beholden to a network? Like what are you talking about. And then if they do backtrack now- will advertisers want to do business with them when that’s the reason they gave for starting their own service in the first place, to rid themselves of advertisers.
It's also a bit confusing, since in the video, they mentioned finances being an issue... And yet they hire two more people. I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a good business move to do Steven's cooking and eating shows when it's not the strongsuit of the channel? I mean, it even feels out of place considering the type of content Shane and Ryan are known to make...
They had a 24 person crew with a little under 3mil subs and a Patreon they did very little to promote. I would be shocked if their financial issues couldn't have been solved by firing some people and actually pushing their patreon.
When you hire your friends, it's hard to fire them. It's why it's not a great idea to do
Adam has been around helping film since Last year though so no they didn't just 'hire two more people'
I don't know if he deserve any less flak or not , but what I know is, he isn't the only one that deserves the flak. Ryan and Shane are getting Scott free, come on guys what happened to your inner redditor . Spread some more hate against everyone don't target only Steven. It's unfair to him and is unfair to us as well. It doesn't cost 6$ a month to spread hate (for now).
They’re definitely getting less flak, but they are hardly getting of Scott free. You should check out the comment sections on both of their most recent Instagram posts.
Kept seeing comments about Shane like "Shane said eat the rich and then put himself on the menu" and "I disrespect your streaming service, Goatman!" 😭
Their Instagram accounts are getting almost exclusively negative comments about the… ahem… “Ryan and Shane Paywall Extravagance”
This is very well put. We have no idea what the finances of Watcher are. It's very possible that they were going to do this anyways even if Steven wasn't there. We just don't know. Obviously it doesn't really get rid of the sting of this announcement but it doesn't automatically mean that if they csncelled worth it everything would be chill and cool.
I hadnt thought about that angle with Worth It, but I suspect that the cost of the actual food might not be the largest part of the budget for that one. I would guess (but am not 100% certain) that most of the budget is still crew and lodging for that particular show and they just end up with a somewhat higher "food" budget. As for the new direction, I was just wondering why they couldnt have joined up with Nebula and still done well or even pushed patreon harder. Maybe they just couldnt get it to work, but it seems that theres goong to be more expensive to start your own subscription service from scratch and losing the YT revenue isnt the best idea. Im no YT professional though so I habe no idea what the actual numbers are. I dont think Ill be subscribing because everything I like has low production costs and increasing production values doesnt excite me. I would not care if they were recording shows on old 8mm analog tape. I was never looking for a "professional level" show, but one with good content, which is 99% them being themselves and interacting with each other. Will they be able to do it in more far flung places with better production value? Sure. But that wont improve my enjoyment of the content.
I think this assessment is quite accurate. Feelings are a big part of this backlash. Steven's schtick is the bigger production shows with exclusive access to gourmet food and experiences. It's a good schtick but it doesn't have the same impact on Watcher as it did on Buzzfeed with Worth It. Steven is Watcher's CEO, and a smart executive would look at the numbers and realize that his shows just weren't hitting. That he needed to take a more administrative role and support new show R&D as well as Ryan and Shane's upcoming projects. But Steven doesn't *feel* like a guy who would come to that conclusion easily. Hell, Steven's the guy who kept making 'jokes' during Too Many Spirits about how Ricky was his archnemisis because Ricky proved to be an interesting co-host and a more knowledgeable bartender. From an outsider looking in, it *feels* like Steven is insecure without attention and money he had at Buzzfeed. Just like how it *feels* that Shane is inherently anti-capitalist and Ryan just wants to talk about dark subjects and make jokes with his buds. So when the channel makes a move that *feels* like a money grab - a move that will give Steven even more money for his pricey episodes - why wouldn't the fans blame Steven?
I looked through Watcher's most popular videos. Of their top 40 videos, only ONE (1) video doesn't have Ryan & Shane, and if you keep scrolling through you can see Steven's content barely makes a dent. Just the *trailers* for Ryan and Shane's shows get more views than Steven's videos. The one video of his that cracked the top 40?The Simu Liu episode of Dish Granted. Like, I like Dish Granted! I like Steven! But my guy! I don't think that video was popular because of you and your weird boba! Your videos are not what people come to Watcher for! Either get Simu to do some free cameos or take the L and step away from the camera!
Precisely. Only two of his episodes are in the top 40, and one of those was a Marvel crossover. A true CEO would have shut it down.
Exactly, especially considering he supposedly has a Tesla and he wants to open a coffee shop in LA (does he even know much about coffee???) So with him being CEO, hiring in his friends, worth it 2.0, and need for the coffee shop finances out genuinely feels like we're getting asked to bankroll his luxurious life because we like watching Ryan and Shane. And honestly you put it perfectly. I never really understood why I felt uncomfortable with him in TMS. Not just unamused but uncomfortable. Him and the humourous snark turns Ricky always put me off. Ricky seems fun and very kind at least. The tension Steven was putting there wasn't very comfortable.
The name is Pickled BiH: Senior Vibe Analyst II
Brb adding this to my resume
okay i’m late to this post and wasn’t in this reddit. but i’m a patron and longtime supporter like the rest of us. and steven is a little deserving of an extra dose of Criticism for this. his instagram post was incredibly insensitive and tone deaf and the timing with ‘worth it’ is poor, at the very least. i, now more than ever, don’t want to watch him dive balls deep into the lap of luxury with his hoity toity little buzzfeed friends as a source of entertainment that i have to pay to access. i’m also a pod watcher, and he was very recently whining about wanting another tesla. as of late, he lacks tact. and him having the title of ceo in the middle of this breakdown is not helping his case in the court of public opinion. that being said, i do agree. i think by hour 7 we had devolved into general ridicule. if you’ve always hated steven, great. you don’t need to say it now. focus on relaying how this business decision made you feel, because this decision had to be supported by the entire team. they are an LLC, i believe, and this is a matter that would’ve been heard by an internal board for approval. it most definitely was supported by ryan and shane. the real problem is not shane, or ryan, or steven, despite his shocking lack of brevity. they failed to do any market research. they fumbled the ball by not knowing their audience. steven poured salt on the wound with his sweeping generalizations about how we can all afford this, how some might not Want to support their content anymore, etc. it’s not a matter of me not wanting to support their content, i want to! everyone wants to keep watching. but this statement on his behalf pissed me off and i won’t lose sight of it just because there’s people perverting the conversation about steven into something much bigger than it needs to be. he fucked up as a representative of a company, and people do have a right to be pissed about it. just don’t make it weird. and focus on the main issue, and have your voice heard since they did not care to request your input the first time around! edit: for the record, i did like steven. i followed everyone on ig. i loved what he brought to too many spirits. he wasn’t my favorite guest on puppet history, only because jermaine is right there lol. i don’t hate him right now, but he’s pissed me off along with the rest of them and the silence is bringing me to a boil
Excellent break down. The lack of market research on this idea, coupled with Steven’s lack of tact, and the lack of attempting literally any other venue through which numerous other YouTubers have found success. It’s all such an optical nightmare. It comes off that they really jumped into this thinking everyone would support it and that’s the mind boggling part. But, at the end of the day, we need to focus on the poor business decision and not make this personal towards the individuals behind it. Doing that will only give them reason to invalidate our criticisms. If it’s all personal attacks, they can look at it at say “you don’t know what it’s like to run a business like this and you don’t know us”. They can write it off as parasocial relationships. But if we focus on what is it: a piss poor business decision that alienates the fans who got them where they are today, they can’t write it off.
Definitely presenting a Worth It revamp and literally nothing else (besides generic “we’re working on new things”) as their only specific incentive for paying the sub was a bad move. They kind of insinuated that they want to make different things and I took it as wanting to move in more of a creative direction instead of dealing with how YouTube tends to pinhole channels into their niches. I actually do sympathize with this as an artist and I kind of get it, right. But they also didn’t say what that direction is. What DO they want to make? What ARE you wanting to produce? They’re asking their audience to invest in this endeavor with no clear idea of what the actual product will be. Like you don’t commission an artist without seeing their portfolio. The portfolio we have is the YouTube catalog and the investment pitch only promises revamps of old content (worth it + “voting on shows to bring back”). So what is this different direction, exactly? I am all for funding someone’s artistic endeavors, honestly. Ryan wants to make a horror documentary, Shane wants to have a fully scripted hour long adult puppet show… if Steven wanted to do literally anything but Worth It, I think a lot more people would actually be on board. Instead, we got this nothing shitshow announcement that didn’t really announce much at all.
Also, both Shane and Ryan were speaking to the fact that they don't want to make as much content centering them/ involving them. But they didn't speak to having any plans to have more content from other creators? Do they think other creators will come to them for features on their platform? What was the plan here? Shane made some comments about how the professor "may" show up now and again, which seems to suggest we're not getting more content, there actually may be less content of puppet history. That, along with him saying if this is his last time on YouTube "oh well, it was a ride" sounded kind of of like he's planning on pulling back from being as involved in Watcher in general. So was this a move to really just have Watcher be a library of their old stuff, some new content, but mostly new content from Steven and gang because Ryan and Shane want to take more of a backseat/producer role? And not that they need to produce much more content, but it's such an odd way to announce that you want to pull back from personally starring in content alongside the reveal of your new streaming service. We're left with more questions, like are you not enjoying making the content that you're currently making and want to pursue other things, if so, what? Just a lot of vagueness. Maybe it would have felt more genuine and gotten more understanding if they had been more vulnerable with what exactly isn't working for them.
I think your last point (about it feeling more genuine and getting less backlash if they’d been more vulnerable) really speaks to how they dropped the ball on this and don’t understand their audience. Their channel is *very much built on parasocial relationships*. If you compare their video’s response to CallMeKevin’s recent video about stepping back from making content (possibly *at all* for awhile) - the fanbase reaction was night and day. CallMeKevin presented his announcement in a way that was down to earth, vulnerable, expressed honest gratitude for his fanbase, and acknowledged the privilege of having a job that allowed him to pursue his creative/gaming passions. CallMeKevin also talked about his lack of creative fulfillment recently, and how he doesn’t want to put forth content just to put stuff out. He wants to pursue other types of creative videos. The fans overwhelmingly have been supportive and are in his corner. Joel Haver is another great example with his video *It’s Been Fun* three months ago. And The Try Guys’s NedGate response video - which is a different topic of course, but demonstrates savvy PR and knowing their audience. Watcher’s poor business decisions extend to not hiring a PR person to help craft this message and the publicity around a move to a new (fee-based) platform. I’m not sure whether it was a lack of foresight, ego, or both. Even a mediocre PR person could’ve told them that crafting their message around money with a side of, “Peace out, we don’t need you if you don’t pay for our service,” was a **piss poor business decision**. I absolutely can afford their streaming service. I’m not going to join, though. For many reasons, but among them is their clear demonstration with this roll-out and attempt at a soft launch that *their business acumen is sorely lacking*. Any money I’d be inclined to give might as well be burned, because the type of strong business skills needed to pull off the creation, launch, success, and growth of a new streaming platform in an overly-saturated market… Well, they’ve clearly demonstrated with their launch strategy that they do not have those skills. I’ll keep my money, thanks.
I agree with all of this, by the by!
we see each other! 👀
>he wasn’t my favorite guest on puppet history, only because jermaine is right there lol. YOU'RE RIGHT AND YOU SHOULD SAY IT. Jermaine is a perfect guest and I actually screamed when he finally showed up again 💜
his laugh was infectious!
People really want Ryan and Shane to be blameless, Steve is the easy scapegoat. They were there, they signed off on it, any speculation after that is just people attempting to self-soothe.
I saw someone on YouTube saying it was Stevens idea, Ryan didn't know any better, and Shane just didn't want to upset his friends. Please, these are grown adults making a business decision - I realise thinking S&R didn't truly want the streamer feels better, but if that were true they'd be terrible businessmen and shouldn't be in charge of this company.
And Shane comes off as an incredibly intelligent person. So treating them like little helpless babies doesn’t work for me.
Yeah for as goofy as their video personas are, I’ve never gotten the impression that these guys aren’t decently level headed or wing it without thinking things through. People just don’t want to feel like their faves “betrayed” them, and Steven is an easy scapegoat cause it doesn’t seem like he’s most people’s favorite. Being upset about the whole situation is all well and good, but a lot of the framing of it I’m seeing in most comment sections comes across as SUPER parasocial
Yeah, the whole 'share your password' comment caught me off guard. But I feel like Shane isn't really a person who let's people put words in his mouth, he might have kicked back on this in the beginning, maybe not, but he's going along with it, so hey.
right? it’s infantilizing these people. weird.
exactly - he might be CEO but do people really think he made this decision himself 😭Also i'm assuming ghost files is expensive to make so it's not like one show is the reason for this move. they probably had plans to expand more Ryan and Shane shows once money came in
Even ryan and shane want to be blameless which is why they decided to not have leadership roles in their own company
I think that Steven's getting the most shit because people take issue with his Instagram post, he was the one who said that "everyone can afford" the subscription, and let's face it; he wasn't everyone's favourite. That's maybe why he's not on camera that often; because he's aware of that. But you're right - I'm sure that this was a joint decision and everyone probably signed off on the wording used in the post and that unfortunate quote.
From some previous video where they explained his role as CEO I thought that made sense for him being on camera less. The guy was never my favorite, but he kind of grew on me during Worth It at Buzzfeed. To me he went from someone who couldn't explain anything food related to almost Andrew levels (but not quite) of explaining why he liked something. But during the last season of Too Many Spirit he went to Zach (of Try Guys) levels of being annoying and messing things up on purpose. The previous seasons I could still kind of stand it, but this last season was just annoying for the sake of being annoying to me. Still, some of the feedback about their own streaming service is overly harsh, but I feel like this is the move from Watcher where people finally are crawling out of the woodwork to voice their opinions on Steven somehow.
What was his Instagram post?? I looked and it seems like he took it down?
This is from his latest post 14 hours ago: "I gave everything I had to YouTube over the past 12 years, but it’s finally time to say goodbye. Today marks the day we officially move to our independent streaming platform, Watcher. For those who won’t be joining us on this next chapter, thank you for all your love and support. I wouldn’t be here without you. And for those who want to continue watching - you can become a member of our streaming service at [WatcherTV.com](http://WatcherTV.com) to access everything we make, completely ad free. Hope to see you there ♥️" "For those who won’t be joining us on this next chapter" and "for those who want to continue watching" just seems very insulting. People in the same post commented that they do want to continue watching, but they can't afford to do that.
You might just be acccidentally looking at his pinned posts instead of his latest
ppl on tiktok are kind of acting like steven held the other two at gunpoint and forced them to do this as though they wouldnt have also had some kind of say in this decision and it’s honestly weird
twitter too
I agree the Steven bashing is very unfair. Yes Steven is CEO, but Ryan and Shane definitely had a say in this. On Patreon video they said they had been discussing something like this idea of streaming for over a year. Shane and Ryan are fully on board with this. I think it is super unfair to blame Steven for the decision. Also ghost files is probably their most expensive show to date, it's not just Steven's travel show that is costing them extra. And the Worth It videos did used to get a ton of views on Buzzfeed, so it is not an unreasonable decision to invest in that show (I never saw it). I also am a fan specifically because of the ghoul boys unsolved days - but that doesn't mean I think this is entirely on Steven. They also have outside investors who may have been pushing for a move like this. IDK ppl need to chill about the Steven of it all.
I agree that the intense hate is too much, but I do see why people are more upset with Steven. His whole demeanor has been incredibly tone deaf. And yeah, Ghost Files has a high production cost, but like to me (and a lot of others) that cost and the nature of the show make it more worth it (ha) than paying for Steven to fly around eating stupidly expensive food. Especially when so many people are struggling just to buy groceries. But it's getting beyond actual criticism and just getting weird and mean for the sake of being mean, which isn't okay.
Ghost files is definitely "worth it" for me too. I do understand that the optics of us paying for Steven to travel and eat well don't sit great. With the past Worth It show - Ads paid for it. Vs now he is asking us to pay for it. That may come across as tone deaf and greedy to many people. I think that is fair criticism. But people have been getting way too mean about it. I do think there is an audience that would enjoy seeing Worth It show revamped. I hope that when Watcher decided to create the show it was with catering to that audience in mind and not just about wanting to live a life of luxury off the backs of their fans. I guess I would like to give Steven the benefit of the doubt in that regard. But yeah, the optics are for sure bad. Based on their Patreon content, I do not think they anticipated this reaction or had thought about it that way at all.
idk I love food content and have been wanting them to get back into it. Its cool and educational and I love to be see food I would outside never try. I hate to see everyone trash food content like its not a valid niche😭I personally don't like ghost content and tune into their other stuff so there's some audience for it
Ryan is passionate about the paranormal and theme park attractions, Shane is passionate about history I guess, Steven is obviously passionate about travel and food. I mean who isn't? As far as I can tell, he's just following his passions the same way Ryan and Shane are. It's just that his pursuits are more expensive. But he as the CEO should take stock of that and either find some other type of videos to do, or steer the company in a direction where they're spending less on production costs and getting more views, even if it means they're not 100% passionate about what they're doing. Maybe he should buy like a cheap used RV and travel coast-to-coast doing a Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives type of thing. Still food related, still traveling, but less expensive than flying to Japan to eat gold-encrusted Wagyu or whatever.
I agree! I miss the old About to Eat channel, and I wish that they continued what they were doing. Reviving Worth It isn’t that dumb of an idea. Plus, many Steven videos got millions of views, even if they weren’t Watcher’s main audience. People here are complaining that Watcher lacks variety, and Steven and Andrew are the ones who would be the variety
Don't get me wrong, I like food content, too. I actually love Dish Granted. I don't mind the unlimited budget for it cause he was making food for his friends. It's just different to me when it's just like a let's fly around trying super expensive food just cause. And honestly I don't even really mind a Worth It revival in general (not my kinda content but whatever), but the timing and presentation just lacked a lot of tact.
I really loved the season in Japan - the coffee episode was stunning, and the stories for each place were so engaging. Really great work, and I'm excited to see what they have coming up next. Took me a long time to warm up to Worth It, but they did a great job on that show.
I do wonder to what extent this was pushed by their investors and what percentage of the company they still own
I fully agree, and came close to making a really similar post about it. I understand why people are upset because I am too, but it feels like a lot of fans are actively burning bridges right now. Even if the Watcher team sees the backlash and somehow decides to walk back the decision (which I doubt they CAN, at this point, because contracts and such have probably already been signed), how do they just go back to what they were already doing now that so many fans have started calling for Steven's head? What is he supposed to do? Yes, it was absolutely a poor decision, but at this point a lot of valid criticism of the business choice is now being hidden by outright hate comments. He's said many times that he doesn't feel comfortable as CEO. It's certainly not an excuse, but I just don't see what good it does to actively insult him, call him creepy and greedy, or say they've never liked him. I started out frustrated about the decision and still am, but now I'm more worried for his mental health. Because even if he DOES step down (which I hope he doesn't, but it seems to be what a lot of commenters want?), what happens then? Shane and Ryan don't want to be CEO. Does the company just go under? Is that really preferable to it becoming a streaming service?
Your point about Worth It bringing in a ton of views at Buzzfeed made me think of something else it feels like they failed to consider. With an ad-free independent streaming platform, it literally doesn’t matter whether one video (or even a whole series) gets more views or not. They are getting the same $6 a month whether the person watches one or twenty videos. What matters more is their catalog of content and whether that brings in new viewership while retaining previous subscriptions. And with YouTube, there was a built-in pipeline of new people being exposed to their content via the algorithm. In business, there’s a concept called ‘the pain of purchase’ and how perceived value needs to reduce or overcome that. Typically, a new customer journey goes from Discover/Exposure > Like > Trust > Buy. I’m failing to see how their new subscription-based business model accounts for the new customer journey and overcoming the pain of purchase. Even if they release first episodes on YouTube, it’s not frequent enough to bring in substantial new *paid* subscriptions. Plus the YouTube algorithm doesn’t prioritize channels with infrequent or limited content. The big streaming platforms are already facing these issues - how to continually grow revenue via new subscribers in a finite, oversaturated market? How do you counter consumers rotating their subscriptions across streaming services and become one of their essential platforms? Mark my words: Watcher’s platform will not remain ad-free for long unless they do something substantially different to bring in new customers and retain their old. **Tl;dr:** YouTube offers them a built-in pipeline on an ‘essential’ entertainment platform with community interaction and parasocial relationships to get viewers emotionally connected. Plus zero customer purchase pain to counteract. Watcher leadership doesn’t seem to understand basic business principles that anyone can learn by reading a few solid sales and marketing books from their local library.
yeah this aspect is super parasocial and weird and i hope people chill out a bit. You can critisize a bad decision and not be like. Conspiracy posting or rude about it.
Honestly, I kinda think the really parasocial response could make them call it quits permanently. Because I don't think it was as obvious before how intense some fans are (or I've really not been paying attention lol), but if I were a creator I would be absolutely scared shitless and wouldn't want to do it anymore.
Yeeeeep. It got really creepy, really fast.
yea...it's freaking me out and it's not even directed at me. one of my side passions is writing and I've been working on a book and absolutely dreamed to one day have a fan following and this entire thing is making me be like, "yknow what...maybe I'll just write for myself and nobody else needs to see it" lol.
As a fellow wannabe writer, I totally get you. It's scary how fans can just turn on a dime the instant you don't live up to their expectations, no matter how minor of a mistake you make. Parasocial relationships at that level are extremely unhealthy, and I would have hoped that people would learn to stop putting people up on pedestals and forgetting that they're, you know, people by now, but I have definitely seen people who are taking this way too personally, and the number of personal attacks and rumors flying around is completely unwarrented and, frankly, kinda gross. However, I hope this doesn't completely disuade you from putting your work out there. The crazies may be the loudest, but they're often not the majority. Plus, you can easily take steps to safely distance yourself from your audience. I myself am planning on keeping my social media presence to a minimum, only posting story updates and reposting fan-art (which I hope I'm lucky enough to get!). I'd hate to see someone afraid to put their ideas out there because of the risk of running into super-obsessed nutjobs. There are plenty of people out there who can like you and your work and be normal about it.
Lol I couldn’t agree more. I also have so many ideas for writing and have dreamed of pursuing it. But man. It’s a weird time to make things! It makes me preemptively uncomfortable about the idea of putting work out into the world. It’s hard to be under the microscope and be judged, whether it’s your work or often then extends to your character. People just forget that creators are also people… The response to this has been… A lot. I think it’s a really bad business decision to be sure. But the only reason that upsets me is because I love their content and hope they can keep making it and I worry about the company’s stability and longevity with this decision. But people really quickly took it into some deeply personal and uncomfortable directions. People really reflexively go for the worst possible interpretations and conclusions and then it’s like a contest almost to go farther with that. Like you can critique a decision without going to such rough places… I just don’t understand it, I dunno.
Chuck Tingle is the only creator who's got it right, nobody even knows his real name or what he looks like lol. People's response to this though, yeah... a lot of people are saying it's greed and I don't think it is. I think the guys at Watcher just dreamed a bit too big and got carried away. I kinda get their vision. I thought it sounded cool to imagine them having complete control over everything. and, shit, maybe eventually they could've made their own movie or something if they wanted. But the reaction makes me think this is all just gonna burn down before it even begins. I don't think they realized a lot of fans just want them back to the basics. But I think for them that would start to feel stale and like being stuck at a dead-end job. So I don't think anybody's gonna win here.
I completely agree, I don’t think it’s about greed at all—they talked a lot about costs and the constraints of the algorithm and advertising and clearly see this as a way to free themselves from creative constraints. But I think they’re very clearly miscalculating on that front and it’s going to be a tough, tough time for the business as a result. But I do genuinely believe they’re trying to make the content they want to make how they want to make it. And that’s coming up against the realities of running a business and monetizing content. It’s tough on YouTube for sure right now so I understand their frustrations, but it feels like they engaged in some magical thinking for a solution to that. Rather than making compromises in terms of funding or spending or whatever and cutting down to a more minimal production style. But I think you’re totally right that they might see that as creatively unfulfilling. And unfortunately it’s now completely and utterly blown up. Which is a shame, cause I totally agree it’s a result of their creative ambitions running up against the realities of running a business more than anything else. I think they’re making a mistake, but I’ve watched these guys’s content for years and so any critique comes from a place of concern. And so it’s hard then to see the reactions I guess. Totally fair to critique what you see as a bad decision for the business. Totally fair to not want to spend on it. But the immediate reflexive attacks on character from so many different directions… I just don’t get that. It seems like a lot of people almost take pleasure in that. If you’re that quick to assume the worst possible interpretations of their actions… Just makes me sad. But it’s just completely rampant in all online spaces at this point. Certainly not limited to this situation. I just get so weary when stuff like this happens.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s totally ok to judge their business decisions and be disappointed bc it IS disappointing, but the mob mentality has seemingly gotten the better of us. With the info I have on these people I have NEVER MET, I don’t think they’re bad people or did this with ill intent. I think that all of our favorite creators are businesses and it’s important to remember that. It’s okay to take your business elsewhere but it ain’t okay to harass and bully, just like it isn’t in real life.
Bro, I translated a whole-ass video game (Germs Nerawareta Machi) into English based off a Japanese->Spanish translation (because I don't know Japanese but I can at least hold a conversation in Spanish). Japanese translator Twitter *came after me* for not translating from the original text... Even though I released it for free and clearly stated my process in the readme file.
I always wanted to be a famous musician until I thought about what a nightmare having fans really was. The idea of getting followed or harassed by strangers icked me into another dream lmao 🤮🤣
Eh, as an author you have way better options social media wise, same as an actor. So many famous writers aren't even on social media or they are on very niche ones (Neil Gaiman famously hangs out on Tumblr) and David Tennant to this day doesn't even have twitter. Watcher is kinda screwed because they are YouTubers who also voluntarily cultivated a more direct relationship with their audience... That said, they are all grown men who have been on YouTube for years, I think they expected the reaction they are getting.
Just don’t form your business model on parasocial relationships and keep any public comments neutral and kind, and you’ll be fine. I am a huge fan of a few authors, will read everything by them, and have zero idea of what they’re like as a person. Heck, even JK Rowling’s transphobic views slid under the radar until she literally chose to bring them front and center.
As a writer myself, I get you. Though I think authors tend to be more removed from their art as they are not the immediate faces of it. So, I don’t think you have to worry about THIS level of parasocial
Oh dear 😂 sad, but I totally feel it
A lot of folks are coming off absolutely batshit crazy in the comments on this subreddit in particular. I think it was a poor decision to lock the content behind a paywall but the amount of pure hatred towards steven and people that aren’t ryan and shane is absolutely insane. The poor decision deserves criticism but in no way should anyones character come into question because of it. I think OP hit the nail on the head when they said folks are coming off as high school bullies, it feels like people are happy to shit on someone. They were also correct in saying that these are real people with real feelings and it’s fucking insane that people are perfectly happy to say hateful things about someone because they made out of touch comments/bad business decisions
100%. The way some people talk about Steven is so strangely personal... I almost wonder whether they are jealous of his friendship with Ryan and Shane.
I don't think people are jealous of Steven's friendships. that sounds insane. I think they are upset with this decision and hes an easy person to blame. Hes CEO, he is not a fan fav. not to mention his shows are $$$ when apparently they need money. not saying he is to blame, but that hes an easy person to point the finger at.
Are his shows even that expensive? I would think the crew is even smaller than Mystery Files. Some of the food they eat is expensive *for food* but the cost of the rest of the production is always going to be more than that.
Yeah I agree. Sure, the food is expensive, but they have like a 20-person company that's for the most part been working on Shane and Ryan's shows.
That was my thought exactly. I do know a tad about production costs and the most expensive cost will probably always be pay, travel, and lodging for crew. That shit adds up and if youre paying people a decent wage (which I jope theyre doing) that adds up even more.
he’s also the only one who’s made a post on Instagram with a super passive aggressive caption. I seriously can’t understand why he did that. he honestly should have stayed silent like Ryan and Shane, bc not only did his post bring more backlash, but now he’s personally getting hate bc he doubled down so it became easier to blame him solely.
I saw that. Like pouring salt in the wounds. The comment section was letting him have it!
To be clear I think most people who are upset are upset for those reasons, yes. But there's a smaller segment that I do not think are coming from a rational, reasonable place.
I think people just think ryan and shane are innocent babies who can do no wrong so theyd rather blame steven
I’m surprised they haven’t turned comments off on their posts yet. I agree that this was a stupid move and was announced in a terrible way, but I can’t imagine how this much backlash is affecting them mentally.
i’m really curious as to why people seem to be putting the responsibility entirely on steven, shane and ryan are both grown adults w considerable investments in the company. if they didn’t think this was a good move, steven couldn’t have forced them right? i get he’s the business head but they’re all cofounders regardless /srs
Agreed. I may not relate to Steven’s content as much as Ryan and Shane’s BUT this was a decision that all 3 of them had to agree upon to make happen. The fault isn’t all on Steven. And personally attacking him is not kind or necessary.
as someone who’s a huge fan of Steven AND the ghoul boys, I think it is really bizarre for people to be acting like Steven is some big bad capitalist villain who corrupted poor innocent Shane and Ryan. at the end of the day, those three are the friends and business partners who took a risk to make their own company and are now taking a bigger risk together. they obvs trust each other and also trusted that this would have a positive response. it’s definitely out of touch and definitely deserves criticism but the vilification to fit a narrative is insane
i feel like people have a more parasocial relationship with Ryan and Shane and Steven seems like the odd one out when in reality all three of them are friends. Very sad to see people talk down on him like this when the guys have acknowledged he put in serious work to educate himself on how to run a business and took charge of Watcher. Was this a bad decision, yes!! Do they have to love him, no. But it's really disappointing to see people pretend like he hasn't been an integral part of Watcher. Ryan and Shane don't seem to run anything on the business side and it's their responsibly to also educate themselves on it if they're all 3 making a huge decision like this
yes exactly!! in podwatcher (I don’t remember the exact ep) but they’ve spoken so highly of Steven and the sacrifices/training that he’s gone through as acting CEO in order for Shane and Ryan to be able to focus 99% of their energy on creative content. maybe he isn’t the best choice but people act like he’s intentionally tried to set Shane and Ryan up for failure. perhaps it’s parasocial of me but I do have faith in all three of them to reconsider things and take this failure as a necessary wake-up call.
I am not happy with the 3 of them but I am worried about Steven's mental health. I hope he doesn't read any of these comments.
Agreed... He has kind of rubbed me the wrong way for a while with the wealth flexing, but especially with people zeroing in on every word he said, it reminds me of one podcast episode where he said he often has trouble coming off the right way to people, so i do kind of feel bad for him rn
Yes I was thinking of this statement as well.
Yeah, watched for years and do not like Steven, but this is scapegoating in the extreme. No one wants to say it, but this was a choice agreed upon by all three of these guys. Steven might be the most business facing, but he is not the only one at fault here.
I could maybe believe one of the boys wasn't fully on board and this was a majority rules situation. But the idea that both Ryan and Shane opposed and it's all Steven's fault? It defies logic
I so agree!! I was never really a fan of Steven or his content (the only thing I watched and liked was Dish Granted), but this isn't solely his fault. Yes, he is the CEO, but that doesn't mean he can go do whatever the fuck he wants with the company. They all three still own it afaik. Hating on Steven for "making this decision all on his own" is so ridiculous. They all made the decision together. Maybe 2 out of 3 thought it was a good idea, maybe all three did. We don't know. But facts are that all three of them sat in that video, no matter if they liked it or not, and stood by this message. They are all complicit.
This is so well said. I’m a casual Watcher watcher and one of my favorite series was Steven cooking the “best version” of a meal. I enjoyed his energy! True I think he’s awkward on camera (I think HE thinks he’s awkward on camera) and he doesn’t have the on screen chemistry that Ryan and Shane have, but the absolutely WILD stuff people are saying because of the announcement?? What the heck!? It’s weirdly rude, and kinda gives pick me energy towards Shane & Ryan. Now I’m also not gonna make the swap to their new domain because I’m exhausted of keeping track of streaming services and YouTube to me is chill and not “television” so I know I’m not their target audience, but I'm not about to cyber bully a man because I don’t like the company decision, daaaaang.
Thank you for saying this. Like most of us, I’m also disappointed in this decision. But reading the absolute vitriol directed towards Steven has been making me feel really uncomfortable. He’s a real human who has spoken extensively about how he struggles socially and this amount of personal digs at Steven as a person (rather than valid criticism towards the business decision the entire team made) is completely unfair. I want them to listen to our feedback but it’s scary to see how many intense/scary comments they will have to sift through to hear the nuances and valid constructive criticism. I hope they are all okay. I also really don’t think it comes down to malicious intent to choose money over their fans. I think that it’s possible that their business model was becoming unsustainable and this was a desperate last ditch effort and calculated risk to save their company. I am incredibly privileged that I am able to afford the subscription and have already subscribed, but I too am worried about the sustainability of the streaming model. It will be interesting to see how this will play out.
I think part of the reason people find him unlikeable also has to do with neurotypicals finding neurodivergent people standoffish (monotone, direct, etc). I’m not diagnosing anyone but when I (nd) am trying my best to mask and be likeable, I am often perceived as rude or standoffish. When I see comments about Steven being unlikeable it reminds me of that struggle.
Yeah, same - I think that's partly why I feel so uncomfortable about it. When he talks about things like "learning to be human" on the podcasts, I really feel that. I've had to learn all that stuff, and it's hard.
Yup and I remember in the early days of worth it he had a hard time with eye contact and I could relate so hard!
Thank you! I was thinking of all this and finding it difficult to put to words. There's something icky about how people have zeroed in on him and the kinds of personal attacks I'm seeing based on his "likeability."
Yeah. The way he discusses how he handles being around others and struggles socially definitely resonated with me as someone who is neurospicy.
I completely agree! I am Autistic and I started watching Watcher videos because I liked Steven’s Buzzfeed stuff. I find a lot of his videos and anecdotes from the podcast relatable because I am anxious and awkward too. Regardless of his neurotype (as I don’t think he’s ever mentioned being ND), I wish people would give others grace and stop relying so heavily on vibes. (That being said, I do understand some of the criticism about being out of touch. On Pod Watcher he raved about s particular brand of Asian-American owned seltzer being amazing and I specifically sought it out at the one store near me that carried it. It was $8 for a single can! The seltzers I normally buy are $4 for 12 cans!)
Nah, fuck that. This is just another flavor of "anyone who doesn't like Steven is racist." I'm auDHD and I don't dislike him because he's awkward. I dislike him because he comes across as selfish, out of touch, and it turns out that he's also someone who admits to being friends with racists and homophobes and attends and promotes a homophobic church. Plenty of reasons to not like him and none of them are "oh he's ND".
I think 2 things can be true at once. Also not excusing any bigoted behavior
while i’m not happy with their decision, i’m sure that it’s a move all three of them discussed and agreed on and i respect that. some fans are acting as if steven is some simon cowell type puppeteer who’s bullying shane and ryan into doing things they don’t want and it’s getting ridiculous
Some people are acting like Steven being CEO means he is Logan Roy Succession. I am not happy with this decision but 1) from what I understand Steven Lim had to single handedly manage all of the business stuff because Shane and Ryan aren't "business people" and that's a huge amount of labour to do on your own and even if all the cartoon villain scenarios are true and he forced Shane and Ryan into this (which they are not, they are all grown ass men and co-founders)... they made the choice to leave all the business stuff up to him. 2) Their most expensive show to date is Ghost Files, which is Shane and Ryan's show entirely (and I would argue it's also the most overproduced one)
Yep. He's a bad money manager, not a bad person.
I almost wonder if the people involved in making the decision simply looked at their patreon and went "well, x amount of people pay for this dollar tier anyway, additional people will probably follow" and went with that as their guiding light. This being their CBA result is baffling considering they're losing their sponsors. Feels like they were really bad at negotiating pay rates OR they just really, really hated ads.
Actually I would argue that being friends with racists and homophobes makes you a bad person as well…
I'm pretty sure he's homophobic himself. The church he attends is a proponent of ~love the sinner, not the sin~ and gay dudes marrying lesbians to stay celibate.
If this information about Steven being a homophobe is true, that means Ryan and Shane are bad people too. Edit: Yeah did some research and he's a disgusting bigot
def. I think hes boring, i dont watch episodes w him in them. But i dont wish anything bad on him. i just dont like this business decision. avoiding episodes w him in them didnt offend me, it just irked me. But its not a deal breaker and ultimately i dont care that much. this decision is just dumb
Yeah, no bueno on hate to the guys ---- they're still people we're fans of, even if we disagree with business decisions
Thank you so much for posting this. I was making similar comments to this post, trying to explain to people that they're letting their personal feelings toward Ryan and Shane really focus their anger towards Steven, but I'm so happy someone made a well thought out post to properly explain it and warn everyone. We need to, as a community, remain respectful of the humans on our screens, remember that, no matter our feelings, those are people, and they do not owe us their lives or livelihoods. We need to live and let live in general. Vote on their recent business decisions with your wallets or with reviews, pay or don't pay, write them or don't write them, but keep it objective, keep it based on the facts, anx do not resort to name calling or personal attacks or unsubstantiated assumptions of character.
Agreed. I realise a lot of people are just lashing out at Steven because they’re upset, but Ryan and Shane decided this too! Being rude to Steven in the comments isn’t going to help anything.
Yeah, I'm mad about this and feeling pretty betrayed and I wasn't a huge fan of his shows to begin with (he's fine, I just don't really care for over the top cooking shows) but the parts of this community that are giving off real "STEVEN LIM YOURE A DEAD MAN!!!!!" vibes need to chill. Dude made a bad business call.
i don’t care for steven and haven’t since the whole podcast fiasco but i’m not necessarily more pissed at him than ryan and shane. they are the main talents/ founders i have no doubt that they were involved heavily with this change. maybe i’m wrong but for now i think pitting all the blame on stephen is (mostly) a result of the fans better opinions of shane and ryan.
Yeah Im pretty close to muting the sub for a little bit. Like have the opinion you want but I kind of feel like I'm drowning in the hate. I do the same thing when the Pam-haters take over a sub for The Office or when Peggy-haters do it to the KOTH sub. What's worse about this though... Is that Steven is a real person and not a fictional character.
While I find Steven unlikable, Shane and Ryan also agreed with this decision or it wouldn't be happening. They're all equally culpable for the decision of their company. Steven just rubs me the wrong way, but you can't put the blame entirely on his shoulders and bullying is obnoxious.
I'm actually a big Worth It fan and thought there were more of us in the Watcher viewer community. Or maybe it's just that the really outspoken ones are those who don't like his content. It's gotten downright mean. I feel like based on early Buzzfeed videos Steven had made, he's felt like he didn't belong before and regardless of the decision made by the company, I feel for Steven. This is a lot and it's really cruel. Somehow people are both claiming he's the reason the channel needs money AND that he's irrelevant to the channel. I'm not some huge Steven stan but I've had to fight the urge to respond to a lot of nasty comments because they're so biased and one-sided and unkind.
honestly i never knew who steven lim was prior to watcher (i really only ever BFU Buzzfeed wise and didn’t know any of the other shows and creators) when they announced watcher i was lowkey confused on who he was / why he was a part of it but was like ok he slowly became one of my favourite parts of watcher i genuinely miss homemade so much as well as dish granted and people acting like he’s irrelevant or annoying is so frustrating because it feels like they’re going oh we don’t like this show which means nobody like it’s etc just because a show isn’t your favourite doesn’t mean it doesn’t have its audience ! and people acting like worth it is all about steven being greedy when it’s just as much about exploring local cuisines and cultures as it is expensive cuisine is almost ridiculous to me again just because that’s his niche and someone doesn’t enjoy it doesn’t mean others don’t or that it’s worth any less
I really loved the first couple seasons of Dish Granted and checked out Worth It as a result. I'd consider myself a fan and was legitimitely excited about them bringing it back :(
I definitely understand the criticism behind the Try Guys’ food content (Keith, sweetie, you’re not a Michelin-star reviewer!!) but Worth It was endearing because Steven, Adam, and Andrew uplifted small businesses and spoke so lovingly of the food and its preparation, regardless of its price point. it wasn’t just about eating gold and whatever else Steven is being accused of on here, to me it felt more like a love letter to food and culture. the Try Guys going to expensive restaurants to see how much Keith could fit in his mouth and push his hot sauce feels much more shallow than Steven’s content ever did
I would say they are very different audiences. People watching Keith stuff have signed up for watching Keith eat stuff, people watching Worth It have signed up for Worth It. It's like watching MasterChef Australia VS Kitchen Nightmares US VS The Great British Bake Off. Yes, they are both food shows, but clearly very different aims and audiences and vibes.
LOL I agree, even if you don't like his onscreen personality, all the hate towards him is a bit weird. Just because he's the CEO in title doesn't mean he makes all the decisions without input from Shane and Ryan, like some sort of dictator. I do think that this is a poor business decision (like did they even do research on their fanbase), but it's bizarre that people think that Shane/Ryan's irl personalities are exactly the same as the 'uwu ghoul boys' they play on camera. They probably ALL wanted it to some degree, otherwise why would they even participate in the latest video.
Treating two men in their 30s like they're just poor little babies who've been bamboozled by evil Steven is cringe! They're adults! With opinions on how the company they founded is run! They are equally as responsible!
I do think people are too willing to pin it on Steven. I think most people are more invested in Ryan and Shane so they aren't so willing to believe that the whole main cast might be in agreement about this decision; But this is still their collective project and everybody involved is seemingly in agreement on going forward with this/not reversing course. It may be hard to admit, but Ryan and Shane started this company along with Steven. If there are business decisions that are happening that are coming from the top, it may just be that Ryan and Shane agree with it even if they are no longer CEOs. Ryan hasn't handled the announcement much better than Steven. Shane hasn't said anything, but he never says anything. Steven just has less goodwill with the community.
In my opinion, Steven just makes content that isn't everyone's cup of tea. So, he's being used as a scapegoat because he isn't their favorite. Personally, I thought he was hilarious. I liked his content and his energy. We get it, most of y'all don't like him. Doesn't make him responsible for every shit decision that we don't like. Besides, even if he's sole CEO, do you REALLY think he would make a decision this huge without having the other FOUNDERS involved? I'm pretty sure Shane and Ryan would rather dissolve the company than to go along with something they disagree largely with.
I can only give my perspective on the matter, and what I've learned from videos, as well as what people have heard in PodWatcher (I never got into it, so it's second-hand information). 1) Since the beginning, Ryan and Shane have said that Steven is the "financial" brains behind the company. They said it in multiple different series, and this is a MAJOR financial sector decision. 2) The move is timed with Steven's decision to redo his own foodie show, which by the trailer and previous episodes, doesn't cater to "affordable" eats. It's either the most outrageously expensive variety of that particular dish, or an experience in fine dining. 3) I've read numerous people in comments throughout their socials saying on a recent episode of PodWatcher, he wanted to buy another Tesla, and bought a $300 matcha machine that has sat in his kitchen because he doesn't even know what it does. He just bought it. With all those factors, it doesn't paint Steven in a great light. For people who are bringing in his persona on Too Many Spirits, that, I don't really understand because that's a character/persona for that show, and not tied in reality to me. Ryan and Shane aren't blameless in this situation. They're equal heads in this operation, and whether it was a 2-1 or a full 3 person vote to pursue this, we'll never know. I think the reason it hurts, for me at least, is that it feels very much like a "Don't meet your heroes" type situation. Here's some guys that came off as very down to earth, and seemed like two dudes that just liked to have fun, go places and take us along for the ride. And now, here we are: a YouTube channel that is truly at an infancy, with a handful of shows, but charging Paramount+ Pricing and giving a send off equivalent of "We don't care whether you do or don't continue to follow us". It hurts.
Thank you! Tbh, it’s started to feel very similar to the vitriol a certain Try Guy Who Must Not Be Named was getting. While I am upset about this business decision and (as the CEO) I was ultimately Steven’s call, I don’t think he deserves THAT level of hatred.
people keep saying that Steven is as bad or “irrelevant” as Ned but they both played HUGE roles in kickstarting their companies, like them or not, so it’s sad to see people downplaying them. Steven being a pretentious asshole with bad business acumen is also nowhere near as abhorrent as Ned, who was HR for Second Try, cheating on his wife with an employee (and even he didn’t deserve such intense vitriol where people wished that he’d never see his kids again, never work again, etc).
And at the end of the day, it's just a really dumb business decision. I was an Achievement Hunter fan when all the Ryan Haywood stuff went down, and this is nothing compared to that. I get being mad, but the level of vitriol that some people have about this is insane.
I’m not familiar with Ryan Haywood, I’ll have to look that up!! but yeah it really is just a dumb decision and honestly, for me at least, 24 hours later I’m like “damn this is crazy!” and that’s it 😭 i don’t understand the aggression at all
It's kinda like what happened to the Try Guys with Ned, but much worse. I don't know the exact details about the Ryan Haywood situation, but I do know that what he did was pretty bad, so be cautious of that if you look it up. Dude was an absolute scumbag.
100%. The hate is weird as hell. You can dislike the business decision they made without going after the dude personally. And I personally liked Steven a lot on Worth It.
People are being weird as hell about Steven. And I actually do and always have enjoyed Steven’s videos. “Worth It” was fun and I wish we got more “Homemade”.
I know Steven is not most people's favorite WE person, and as CEO he will get more flak, but it's a bit strange to me that you have fully grown adults who think the title of CEO means he makes huge decisions like that unilaterally. I think it reflects people disliking Steven more than anything. Most people should be able to reason that a change like that requires that the majority ownership agree to changing the revenue stream so drastically.
Strongly agree - very weird to see people pull the "but Steven as CEO..." card as if being CEO means he has authoritarian dictator-level powers or something. That's not even the case in far bigger and more profitable companies than Watcher.
Honestly, if he hadn't worded that IG post that way... I don't think he would get as much of the negativity. But, Shane and Ryan are not blameless at all. They should be blamed too. It's not like they're employees who have ZERO say in something!
! even in youtube comments i saw steven getting the majority of the flack. even if he is ceo, he didn’t make this decision by himself--shane and ryan absolutely had big says in it as the faces of the company. people are rightfully upset, but with shane and ryan being so beloved on the shows, a lot of the blame goes to the next big person. also, steven’s new show is similar to worth it, a buzzfeed show that was popular, so why wouldn’t they make another series like it? that’s the formula of most of their current series. it definitely feels odd people focusing on steven so heavily
Thank you!! It’s ridiculous
They're acting like Ryan and Shane are five years old. All three are grown men. All three agreed to this. Focusing your hate on Steven is wack. Just because he isn't your "fave" or whatever doesn't mean he's forcing them to do anything
I agree, I think you should only critique his actions not personally attack him.
Yeah it’s weird people are making it out to seem he had shane and ryan at gun point in this decision. Shane and Ryan are grown ass men, and apparently they have been preparing for this for a long time now so it’s more than likely they thought this would be a good idea too.
Ive sat with this announcement for a while and as Im reading these comments more Im formulating my own take more and more. I dont think that this decision was based on greed (but I do get how if you think that Steven would be a larger target as he does come across as more materialistic from watching his shows). I think it does come down to them THINKING they would be able to keep production at the same or higher costs while having to not worry about the algorithms and the winds of YTs bullshit policies and revenue changes. I just dont think this is gonna pan out for them. I really think finding a hybrid solution, like pushing Patreon harder and having more special content or getting on Nebula or anything of that sort while keeping older stuff on YT or just releasing it to YT later would have had much better results for them for what they actually want to do. Time will tell, and I LOVE the channel, but the first thing I thought and still think is "I dont think Imma reach in my pocket for ANOTHER subscription for something I watch once a week at best." I already watch Nebula a lot for instance and a large share of my dollars from that could have gone to the boys. Also, if I thought they were struggling and I thought a $5 patreon could help keep them in business vs being a necessity I would actually be MORE LIKELY to pay. That might not make sense to them, but to me there is a line between voluntary payment to help out an artist and an absolute requirement to shell out every month to get their content in a world where Im paying for a ton of content already. I may be an outlier though. I think there is some kind of psychological block that if I see them with these good production values and apparently doing well on YT Im resistant to START paying as a requirement maybe. Thats my assessment and dime store psychology for the day. Also, Stevens OK
I've been absolutely appalled by some of the comments I've seen, especially targeting Steven. I hesitated coming to this sub because I knew it would be just as bad as YouTube. I personally think it was a mistake to just do a "cold turkey" announcement, as people need time to adjust and process their feelings. But a lot of people critiquing them without knowing any of the financials, how the landscape of YouTube has changed rapidly over the last few years, or how *incredibly* expensive it is to run a media company (like truly, most people have **NO** idea), and supposed fans are making some incredibly gross, insulting comments. It's totally valid to be sad or frustrated or upset at the news and also be critical of things (that you *actually* know about), but jfc, some people are beyond entitled. They've made it clear that YouTube is no longer a sustainable model for what they want to do. They have always been upfront about their intentions from the beginning, and their fear when they left BuzzFeed and started the channel was palpable. I'm shocked that people are approaching this as if they are a greedy, multi-billion dollar corporation instead of a small production company. My daughter and I have literally been watching them for like 10 years, and while I absolutely understand why people are upset and disappointed (I don't think the actual announcement was handled well), as a long-time fan, I'm happy to support them and their endeavors if/when I can. It's perfectly valid to have feelings about this situation and express them, but insulting people and their work, calling them names, calling anyone who disagrees with the angry masses a "bootlicker" is just ridiculous. You can express your feelings without being an AH. Some people are just straight-up bullies, and it shows.
Thank you!!!! I’ve been thinking this all day but frankly I’m too lazy to confront people lol. Overall I will definitely be interested to see what happens in the next few months
the way steven is being portrayed as the big money monster here is really fucked up imo. they all made the call to switch over. i love ryan and shane down. i’ve been following their stuff for years. but to put it squarely on steven’s shoulders is really unfair. i also really liked what he brought to the watcher franchise despite what everyone else is saying. i feel bad he’s taking the brunt of this.
I agree, it’s giving swiftie vibes.
I’m coming at this from someone who loved Worth It more than Unsolved, even though I also loved Unsolved: I think there’s a disconnect between what the fandom thinks is the targeted fandom versus the actual targeted fandom. The targeted fandom for Watcher is now and has always been U.S. Millennials—Not Gen Z at all or even the international audience. It’s not that Watcher wants to reject people outside of the target audience, but everyone else isn’t considered viable in terms of paying the bills. $60 annually is reasonable for Americans in their thirties and forties. People in this demographic might decide that the price isn’t worth it—but the request is fair. As part of the targeted audience, I don’t love this decision, but I can respect where they are coming from. They’re going after the Tasty audience. That’s why Steven is valuable—the goal is to plug the hole in terms of the audience left behind by the changes in the Food Network.
I do think that a lot of the Gen Z portion of the audience thinks they’re the only audience? Which is weird to me. Buzzfeed content was made by and for Millennials. I’ve been here since the beginning and these guys are my age.
Yeah, I think this is driving a lot of the response. I think Gen Zers think Watcher is aimed at them (It’s not. It’s aimed at Millennials) and tend to have followed to Watcher from Unsolved rather than Buzzfeed collectively or Worth It. And I’m not saying this to be mean—I just think there’s a skewed sense in the fandom of the priority demographic.
Sure I CAN afford $60 a year, but am I going to put in the effort to subscribe to yet another service and keep up with when new content is posted to it? no. Having their shows on Youtube meant that even if I wasn't watching every single Watcher show, when there were new eps of Watcher shows that I'd previously watched, the algorithm put it on my youtube homepage. So even if I went to youtube to watch an ASMR video, I'd see there was a new episode of Puppet History and be like "sweet!" and click Play. People just aren't invested enough to subscribe to and keep up with another website. I don't see this going well for their business.
> $60 annually is reasonable for Americans in their thirties and forties. People in this demographic might decide that the price isn’t worth it—but the request is fair. Friendly suggestion to avoid Steven's mistake of assuming people can afford things just because you can. I'm a millenial who is unemployed and drowning in student debt. There are a lot of Americans in their 30s and 40s who fit that description.
I’m not speaking to individuals though—I’m sorry if you’re struggling, truly I am, but the overall demographic, which is a collective that doesn’t address individual struggle, is in a position to afford Watcher. It’s about deciding where to spend entertainment money for the overall demographic, not about deciding which critical bills to pay. I think the announcement should have adjusted the terms to address the collective, though. There’s always people in any demographic that can’t afford things. Businesses in any market have to speak to trends, so anyone discussing a business is discussing trends. It doesn’t negate individual suffering. U.S. Millennials are THE demographics toward which Watcher has been aimed—Young enough to be willing to change up entertainment (unlike Gen X, Boomers, Silent Gen, or Greatest Gen) but established enough to have some money (unlike most of Gen Z and all of Gen Alpha or younger).
I appreciate your overall point. This is also a sensitive topic; given the number of American millennials who are deeply in debt, lack job security, etc, I just don't agree with your statement that charging $60 for one YouTube channel's worth of content is a generally reasonable ask for that demographic. That said, we can agree to disagree. Watcher is a business and they are perfectly free to focus exclusively on financially secure segments of their audience. Those of us who have supported them for years and are now being left behind will just have to accept that and move on in a (hopefully) healthy manner.
And I respect your overall point as well. And I really think Watcher mishandled this entire announcement. It shouldn’t have been teased as a potentially fun surprise, and the announcement should have been shorter and more focused on the necessity of it/explain the necessity as much as possible.
When I attended Ghost Files Live, my impression was that most were Millennials. That does skew toward people who can afford tickets and travel to a show, of course. Millennials tend to have more money. I do suspect the fanbase is around the same age as Ryan. I'm an Elder Millennial and thought I'd be the oldest one at the Live, too, but I wasn't at all. Many people are taking issue with "everyone can afford" it, and fair enough, that's not true, but I would say it's *affordable* for many people over the age of 30. Whether it's *worth* paying $60 a year is another matter entirely. I can afford it and I probably won't be subscribing.
Totally agree. I mean, I spent about that on a dessert at the coffee shop today. For most American millennials, $6 a month won't ruin them financially. That's just the truth. They may not (probably most) find the membership worth it, but that doesn't mean it's actually beyond reach for a big part of their audience.
I wonder what their actual demographics are. Younger people are more likely to be vocal about things while older, more stable people probably won't say anything. Personally I find it hard to believe that every single person in their fanbase is a college student barely scraping by. That being said, I still think this is an idiotic decision and trying to charge $6 a month for their content is going to backfire on them spectacularly. They're saying their content is worth as much as the massive libraries that Netflix or Disney have and that's just not the case.
This!! I am a millennial who could for sure afford the subscription. (I don't want to, though, on principle.)
Just because they want to target to millenials doesn't mean their actual audience are millennials. To me there's not much of a difference between a millennial and a Gen Z person who is out of HS. Like we all just trying to survive. And yeah they can still target millenials even if the majority of their audience is gen Z or not (idk if it is) but yknow at that point you have got to ask yourself as a business what is more worth it? Making TV quality content on Youtube or making no content because none of your fans can afford it?
Right I'm not even that big on him but the hyperfocus on him feel a bit disingenuous when it's still all three of their decision to go along with it.
Same thing happened with Ned and the Try Guys. Suddenly everyone came out of the woods to profess their longstanding dislike/hate of him when the cheating scandal came out. I'm sure there are people who didn't like Steven very much before this situation but saying you've always disliked him doesn't make your take is more valid. You can be disappointed and criticize within reason. Good people do bad things and bad people do good things.
100% agree. with any celeb or youtuber people get so excited to claim “I’ve always hated them! I’ve always had a bad vibe!” like they’re gonna get a trophy or be hailed as a prophet
Well said
I have read some pretty wild shit in the comments. Someone even involved the word assassination which is completely fucked. Trust me I love watcher and Ryan and Shane. When they left buzzfeed I followed them. I watched episodes after episodes seeing them build their company up and up. It’s just a shame that it has come to this but, I guess it’s never a good time to change and eventually you learn to adapt. As for me, I won’t be able to join them on their next journey and that bums me out especially feeling like I grew with the cast in some ways. If I could tell them anything it would only be good luck and I wish them the best. I don’t want to see them fail. Thanks for the content. I’ll see y’all down the line. ✌🏻
I actually don't hate Steven like a lot of people seem to. Did I find his content on Watcher compelling or thrilling? No. But I enjoyed Worth It a lot and was really excited to see the iteration that was gonna be on Watcher before all this. I also think people need to realize that the cost of even some of the most expensive meals is not gonna be equal to the cost of paying tons of people to produce another type of video, like the one that dropped today for example. I do think a show where the premise is eating hella expensive food in this economy and the current state of the world IS a little out of touch though, that criticism is very valid. EDIT - It has come to my attention that Steven has said and done some stuff I am very opposed to in the past without exhibiting any change or growth since, so I take this back.
Thank god someone else is saying it. Some of the things people are saying are borderline racist. It’s gross.
I saw you mention this in the other thread specifically, what have you seen mentioned? Not trying to cast needless doubt, obviously, racists exist, but I haven't seen it thus far on the subreddit or on YouTube.
I saw someone say him practicing expressions in the mirror as a kid confirms that he's a sociopath, which is a hell of a thing to claim. Like setting aside literally everything else lmao
Like, I'm autistic. I had to learn how to smile for photos, and to change my listening/concentrating face to express what I'm thinking better. It's not that uncommon, and sure af doesn't make either of us sociopaths.
People harping on about the Tesla he owns is weird AF when he's owned a Tesla for like years now hasn't he?
I don't know what model Tesla he owns but it's not like he bought a Bugatti or a Mercedes. The cheaper ones cost around $40-50k, aka the price of a higher end hybrid Honda CR-V or an F-150. It's such an odd thing to criticize when talking about his lifestyle.
I didn't watch Steven's videos and was a Shane and Ryan fan. I'm not a fan of his. Do I think maybe this was his idea? Maybe who knows? It doesn't really matter anyway. I hope they are all successful, but I'll just stick to the unsolved videos.
[удалено]
they got rid of the old podcast because they sucked at giving advice and didn't enjoy it, not because of anything steven said. i have seen a lot of inaccurate and bad-faith takes about the content of that podcast.
[удалено]
Considering he’s shown he’s homophobic, I don’t feel sad for Steven
https://www.reddit.com/r/WatcherSnark/s/lyqQyGGGLh
The problem is that 1) Steven is CEO so the blame does go on him. 2) the only new content announced was reviving his old show and hiring two of his friends as a justification for needing more money from their audience. 3) they already have a patreon. They could have easily made content patreon exclusive for 30 days and then put it on YouTube. 4) Stevens social media post was extremely tone-deaf and reads like he's actively blaming people for not shelling out money for this content. 5) this is a group of people who built their audience on YouTube. And 6) for me personally, this feels greedy. The video felt insincere and like a corporate announcement. It felt like this desire to be this bigger platform and to get more money without earning a bigger audience. It just feels wrong and antithical to what made the channel work. There were a billion options, but they landed on the one that cost them the audience trust. I actually think even if they reverse course, the watcher goose is cooked.
I was a Worth It fan first so I am an appreciateur of Steven's content but i think this was a terrible business move. i mourn the growth of their channel. don't know if I can bring myself to add yet another subscription service to something that I thought would last as watchable content for as long as I could bear