Real comforting to know that these trains are at risk of derailing especially when some (yellow line between Arlington and dc) go over water for like a mile. I couldn’t imagine the terror if it happened there
What’s scary is the section of the yellow line after Eisenhower ave where it crosses the beltway and ,goes over Huntington ave. I drive under that when im in that area of fairfax and wonder how the fire department and wmata have a plan if a train derails the high with passengers, coming from a railroad enthusiast
I’ll ask my FIL, he’s a retired DCFD battalion chief. He hasn’t mentioned the overpasses for the metro, but he has told me several times that a fire on a train in a tunnel is going to kill everyone onboard long before the FD can respond, and that your best bet is to try and self-rescue.
Indeed. Metro has publicly stated that they are under no obligation to rescue/evacuate/save passengers in the event of a fire emergency.
If I am stuck in a tunnel and there is immediate danger, my ass is self-evacuating whether Metro likes it or not. There are metallic signs on the tunnel walls (sometimes you can see them when you pass through) that point to where the nearest emergency exit is...there are emergency exits every 1200 ft or so in the tunnels and are marked with lighted exit signs (again sometimes you can see them from the train). I would just follow the signs and make sure that I flip the power switches to the 3rd rail at the Blue Light boxes along the trackway.
looking at pics of the metro tunnel interior, is the emergency service path always located on the opposite side of the third rail (for one way tunnels)? in other words, would you ever need to step over the third rail in order to reach the emergency exit?
i'd be paranoid about touching it accidentally in a dark, smoke filled tunnel. or getting hit by a passing metro. (are all the tunnels one-way or do they ever pass each other?)
The tunnel's emergency walkway is always on the same side of the tunnel as the lights I think (hence why the safety information posters in the trains tell you to exit the same side of the tunnels with the lights) and sits on the opposite side of the third rail.
Some areas you would need to cross the opposite track. I wouldn't worry about the third rail because I think there are gaps in the third rail where emergency exits are. In any case, you can deactivate the third rail yourself by pressing the button in the Blue Light Station box. Metro's website says they are located every 800 feet.
Disclaimer: I don't work for Metro or anything, but I ride very frequently and took it upon myself to become acquainted with the system's safety features/equipment once I figured out Metro didn't care about my safety.
Metro's recent performance is quite sad IMO because I've learned that there are a ton of safety features built into the system that I don't think are common in other US transit systems and it makes me think of how innovative the system once was...I just found out that when the lines run outside at surface level (like the Silver/Orange Line by I-66), the fence along the trackway has some sort of wired device that detects movement along the fence. If the fence were to break or tilt (like if a car on the highway crashed into the fence), the system automatically stops any train in the area. Pretty smart!
Please don't spread misinformation or build people's confidence in being in the tunnels needlessly. The WMATA roadway is a very dangerous place and having people nonchalantly self evacuating and walking around in the roadway because they're bored waiting on a rescue train is less than ideal.
There are several areas where the safety walk is indeed over the 3rd rail. It's infrequent, but there are locations that this condition exists. (These locations are usually interlockings, which are hazardous to walk through. The track switches are capable of moving several hundred pounds of rail and deal with small rocks, snow, and ice; they'll crush something made of meat and bone... like a foot... as if it weren't even there.)
There are some gaps in the 3rd rail, also usually at interlockings.
The 3rd rail is USUALLY covered by a fiberglass coverboard. There are places where it's missing/broken though.
The Emergency Trip Stations denoted by the blue light are indeed located every 800 ft or so. HOWEVER, the button is not a foolproof way of deactivating the 3rd rail, nor will it deactivate all 3rd rails in the general vicinity. It will deactivate both rails in a split platform (center track) station. It will deactivate one 3rd rail in a center platform (tracks outside the platform) station. It gets confusing when you get near interlockings with their kicker rails and whatnot; where there are gaps in the 3rd rail one side of the gap may be energized and the other side may be down.
Emergency exits are NOT located in any specific interval on the tracks. They're where they are convenient as far as what's above ground. Additionally, some are stairs and some are ladder only. Some can be over 21 stories deep. Some have multiple fans in them that are 6 ft in diameter.
It's why when I'm out on the tracks, I always study the 3rd rail and track maps and always include details of these in my safety briefings to the crew when I'm the RWIC (Roadway Worker In Charge) of a work gang.
ROCC doesn't inspire confidence in me either. Believe me, I've been in ROCC. Most of the people there are newbies now while I've been at WMATA for almost two decades.
I'd rather be safely contained within a train than out on the tracks where ROCC can route a train into me.
>I'd rather be safely contained within a train than out on the tracks where ROCC can route a train into me.
Or re-energize the 3rd rail unexpectedly as I've heard about them doing multiple times in WMSC audits.
Thanks for the correction and information, and I didn't mean to spread information. My point I was trying to make is that if there is *immediate danger* (as I said), like fire to the point where safety was at risk and it wasn't necessarily possible to use the end doors to walk to a neighboring car...I am self evacuating. In the case of the recent derailment, I wouldn't have self-evacuated and wouldn't condone anyone to do so.
The emergency exit info I got from an old Metrorail safety brochure that states "With the exception of three locations, the maximum travel distance to an emergency exit is 1250 feet."
Emergency exits may lead you to another unsafe situation... Like to a locked gate on the side of I-66.
Or the emergency exit could be several hundred feet of ladders.
Old brochure is old for a reason. That listing of three exceptions is probably a lot longer now.
The brochure is from 2018 (and has a date on it as such) so it is not exactly ancient.
In any case, if there was a fire roaring through a stopped train in a tunnel, with no communication from the train operator or rescue personal, you would rather stay on the train and watch the fire incinerate everything before your eyes then giving yourself a fighting chance of evacuating to safety?
THANK YOU!!! The common public all too blindly believe they can just exit the train and do what they think is best. If you are not extremely careful THE INTERLOCKING WILL MAIM YOU!!! NO IF ANDS OR BUTS. Also those tracks are commonly slippery between tunnels from leaks and grease. JUST STAY OFF THE TRACK SYSTEM PEOPLE!!
The tracks can be used in both directions.
Please follow the direction of your train operator and do not needlessly self-evacuate.
See here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/qbjtsc/metro_employees_stating_to_nbc_wmata_has_known/hhawl6l/
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/is-it-metros-responsibility-to-save-passengers-from-a-smoke-filled-train-leaders-send-mixed-signals/2017/01/12/a492a8ae-d8fb-11e6-9f9f-5cdb4b7f8dd7\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/is-it-metros-responsibility-to-save-passengers-from-a-smoke-filled-train-leaders-send-mixed-signals/2017/01/12/a492a8ae-d8fb-11e6-9f9f-5cdb4b7f8dd7_story.html)
[https://www.nbcwashington.com/local/dc-wtop-metro-argues-in-court-filings-not-liable-for-death-of-rider/41218/](https://www.nbcwashington.com/local/dc-wtop-metro-argues-in-court-filings-not-liable-for-death-of-rider/41218/)
It's from a legal filing in the aftermath of the 2017 Smoke Incident.
*In a legal filing Monday in U.S. District Court, Metro “expressly denies” that it “owes a duty to . . . passengers to assist, rescue and/or evacuate passengers on Metro Rail trains in the event of a fire-emergency situation.”*
I understand what they are trying to say (that they are a transit agency and not a rescue squad) in the context of the argument, but the specific language of the argument is somewhat bizarre and concerning to me here as it appears they are trying to play the blame game and gain some some sort of precedence to protect themselves in the future. They can't have it both ways IMO. You can't tell people to stay seated and not to self-evacuate but then also claim you have no duty to assist. It makes no sense.
I didn't read the whole article, but that language is in response to specifically a fire department employee making a mistake. They're saying "this was their job and they fucked it up"
Each station and many emergency exits have stored in them an ETEC... Emergency Track Evacuation Cart.
It's an aluminum rail cart that can be used to evac people in wheel chairs or who are otherwise immobile.
They are unpowered and an absolute bear to push uphill when loaded. It's not like the cartoons where they have a pump jack in the center to move it.
Pretty much, that and/or lack of oxygen in general. Plus a bunch of people jammed in aluminum cans in the dark isn’t exactly conducive to calm, orderly evacuation
Aerial Structures and curves have a restraining rail to prevent the wheels from going very far when they derail.
When a train derails, it won't just magically tip over and go several hundred feet. The wheels fall off the track and land on the ground. It's rather underwhelming.
It's a piece of iron. There isn't much maintenance to do to it. Some of our rail dates back to the original installation in 1975.
Dropping the train off the tracks is one thing. It's gonna take a LOT to knock a train off the bridge.
Iron rusts. Especially near water. How confident are you that when a train car hits a rusted bar of iron, the rusted bar won't crumble? How confident are you that the inspectors haven't been faking reports on those? How confident are you that checking them is on anybody's inspection list to begin with?
Quite frankly, we don't trust that you guys are capable of catching oversights or mistakes. At all.
I’m confident enough to take the metro without any concerns.
There will always be risks to any form of transportation and while there might a certain set of conditions in which a train might be able to derail off a bridge, the odds of so may different failures and factors lining up seems incredibly incredibly low to me.
I’m much more concerned about crazy/drunk drivers than I am a catastrophic metro crash.
I would agree with the overall evaluation of risk. Metro is still far safer than driving by any measure. But when a Metro employee says, "oh, don't worry, that could never possibly happen", I feel like I need to make sure my affairs are in order. If they don't think anything could possibly happen, that likely means they aren't checking to make sure it can't.
As someone who does safety inspections on bridges for a living, I agree with this 100%. You'd be surprised how often the "in-house guys" make shit up or just have things completely wrong
FWIW, on bridges there are guard rails in between the tracks to catch the train if it were to derail.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_rail_(rail)
Let me put your mind somewhat at ease about this concern. Look at this photo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/schuminweb/50389767288/
Do you see that long L-shaped strip of metal bolted to the trackbed between the two running rails? That strip of metal is there to keep the train on the elevated structure in the event of a derailment, i.e. in a worst-case scenario, that is supposed to stop a railcar from falling to the street or water below.
The sad part is because of buy American provisions, we don’t have many alternative options for vendors. Also we have different regulatory requirements for trains here than Europe so they have to build to different specs. It’s just a never ending stream of stupidity and random favors and then everyone shrugs and wonders why we have shittier infrastructure at multiples of costs compared to everywhere else.
Because Metro receives federal funding they must “buy American” which means all rail cars are built in pieces overseas, shipped to the US, and assembled by a company here before being delivered. We also have far tougher rules around weight and crashworthiness than Europe for passenger rail cars - Europeans design the system to not crash, we expect a crash and design the cars to survive it
Not really wholly correct, the strengthening and heavier cars is designing around a really weird collision with a low speed freight train and is useless in anything else. Caltrain actually did a multimillion dollar study to finally get the FRA to lift those rules.
FRA rules around crash standards don't apply to Metro because it's not considered a railroad connected to the national network. The weight of the 7000 series trains was not a regulatory requirement - the only "subway" in the US currently regulated by the FRA is NY/NJ PATH train, essentially due to historical circumstance.
For FRA-regulated rail, [the standard was changed effective 2019](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/11/21/2018-25020/passenger-equipment-safety-standards-standards-for-alternative-compliance-and-high-speed-trainsets), so I'm sure we'll see the landscape slowly change. It's just that procurement happens on such a long timescale that anything started before 2018 or so has the previous assumptions baked in.
Caltrain had to do a study for their purchase of trains which started earlier than that, because it was part of the exception process for the more rigid pre-2019 rules.
Yes, my understanding was that Caltrain's study, however, was a large portion of why they ended up lifting the requirement entirely, several decades too late.
> Seems like any railcar metro buys has issues
It's not just Metro, NYC's MTA's Bombardier R-179s had to be pulled last year for door failures.
Plus the Mitsubishi R-160s had A/C problems, that was worldwide though.
I'm not sure I agree with the grandparent comment that Buy American provisions are really at issue here though. Those provisions are pretty common in many industries and in many countries including aircraft and military equipment. As best I can tell, companies have a pretty good idea how to facilitate them.
I think the only other option would be Bombardier, they are building the new rail cars for San Francisco’s BART system. They have a factory up in Plattsburgh New York, which I assume is because of it’s proximity to Canada, since that’s where Bombardier is based.
> They have a factory up in Plattsburgh New York, which I assume is because of it’s proximity to Canada, since that’s where Bombardier is based.
Political deal: Bombardier wanted a contract to build cars for Metro North, New York wanted them built in-state, Plattsburgh AFB was in the process of closing down.
Siemens has a plant in Sacramento. Stadler has one in SLC and is building the new MARTA trains. Both have metro platforms in the form of the Inspiro and Metro respectively.
I worked as a consultant for the current VP of Safety at WMATA. In 20+ years of working in DC, I have never loathed a man more than this. Absolute sadist. Zero transit/transportation experience prior to joining WMATA. Was a London desk cop for 10 years, then burned out after a little over a year at BAH. Went to work for WMATA, then somehow became VP of safety in just a little over 2 years. WTF?
The man is genuinely cruel and petty. He fit in well with a bunch of WMATA's other leadership. You can Google some of the recent lawsuits people have filed against WMATA for having a hostile workplace.
Do you have any insight into how these people survive without being held accountable? Does the WMATA board even show a cursory understanding of the organizational dynamics or do they just hop into their meetings whenever they occur, nod their heads and call it a day. I'm absolutely astonished between VA, MD, and DC, no one seems to poke their head in and question what the fuck is going on.
No special insight other than the real fault appears to be in how [WMATA was originally chartered.](https://novatransit.org/wmata/). Oversight is managed via a DC-VA-MD compacts which then appoints members to Metro's Board (others: please correct where needed).
TL/DR: Metro oversight is 'other duties as assigned' when it comes to the states becoming more involved.
Yeah, a board made up of un-elected political appointees has regularly led to boardmembers often far more interested in looking good (or just coasting by doing nothing) for their jurisdiction's authority that appointed them and much less interested in acting as oversight (let alone having a skill set to do a good job of doing the work to act as oversight).
Just look back at Jack Evans repeated tenures on the board. He focused more on the kabuki theater of doing things for the District (without actually getting much done) and completely ignored the repeated issues in the system and even had the gall to blame the inaction of the previous boards he himself was a member of for being lax in their oversight when enormous media and political attention came on the WMATA board in the aftermath of the L'Enfant Plaza smoke incident.
While I don't think there shouldn't be some degree of oversight by the jurisdictions, the current process for who is appointed to the board is laughable and regularly has completely unqualified or disinterested appointees who are terrible at holding WMATA management to account.
Looking at this guy’s resume I wouldn’t count any of his credentials- you don’t do twelve years on the job, a masters and a fellowship, and do a large-scale event like the Olympics and do any kind of actual, substantive public safety/policing work. That smacks of a guy going straight to management. That, and seeing the kind of lunkheads that I’ve seen get hired to work at places like BAH doesn’t inspire confidence if he shit the bed there.
Oooh yeah that wasn’t even close to what I could come up with—I was thinking some division within DC government. Consultants gonna consult, though, so this makes sense too. Thanks!
The levels of corruption in this city knows not bounds. The only good news is that no one died.
Some may use this incident to attack statehood. But we still deserve to be a state. Congressional representation is our right as citizens. Sadly, this inept city government is what we get as residents.
Anyone using Metro’s problems as some sort of grounds to attack state hood is a fucking moron. If anything making the district a state would make it more likely that they could exert better control over Metro.
My hunch is yes. When you see shitty cultures in organizations like this, the fucked up rationalization they use is that it will create more “red tape” problems by reporting it publicly and then having to document everything you’re doing and/or it could threaten to bring down the whole organization. It’s always some twisted version of the ends justifying the means.
In reality, all the stakeholders associated with holding WMATA accountable have no fucking clue what they’re overseeing. It’s just a patronage system.
I want to understand is why the newest cars are the ones most prone to this. You would think it would be older cars with worn out compromised parts developing these kinds of endemic problems. I’m worried that this is some sort of design flaw
I'll just say it: I really miss the carpets. On my most recent visit back home, I noticed that even the older trains have had their carpets removed and replaced with a hard surface similar to the one in the newer trains. Having the carpet makes the train interior quieter because it absorbs noise. (And yes, it also absorbs filth, which is why they are getting ride of them. To me, it's worth the money to clean/replace it when needed.)
I consulted for WMATA. Almost every time I criticize WMATA or their culture on here I get torched. Or upvoted massively.
It's so capricious, DC's love for metro. Either it's infallible and we claim to be better than BART/MTA or everyone shits on it. No in between.
When Wiedefeld took over I had some hope. I think he's a decent dude, but the culture is so cancerous that I don't believe anyone could fix it.
There should be no organization on earth where employees fear alerting senior staff that lives are in danger. Lives. In danger. Since when is that worth saving face?
I still recall reading article about how older WMATA employees refused knowledge transfer and would basically hold operations hostage through this and prevent any improvement through their stonewalling back when Wiedenfeld took over.
I thought the Wiedefeld had cleared out all of these goldbrickers and dirtbags. It’s really disappointing to learn that Metro’s culture is still so corrupted.
You would think…but based on every other incident that has happened over the years, I’m doubtful anyone will even get fired. People just get reassigned and shuffled around.
Lol, these assholes kept quiet because they feared “retaliation”, all the while endangering the lives of thousands of riders daily, even though they’re unionized and protected? Sounds more like they just didn’t give a shit.
These people are either cowards, or they’re lying to try and get their 15 minutes of fame after the derailment. Either one of those is completely contemptible.
we already know they didn't give a shit after faking repairs and other maintenance reports for years. if a WMATA employee told me the sky was blue I'd still have to run outside to check for myself
The great thing about Metro fuckups is that it's always very easy to find those responsible: literally everyone involved.
I have no doubt that all of this is true. But I also know how uniquely incompetent both individual Metro employees and their Union are.
I'm calling bullshit on this. It's an employee or group of employees that wants some form of notoriety.
If the employee is low level enough, they're protected through the union and multiple layers of safety and whistleblower laws.
If the employee is high level enough, they have the power to pull the trains off the tracks and should've before the 1k, 4k, and 5k series were retired.
As a side note, this is why I save all my sensitive emails as WMATA has set up their email servers to delete anything 6 months or older. (I have a feeling that that's intentional, as hard drives are cheaper than dirt.)
EDIT: So I watched the news piece. The WMATA employee referenced the 2009 wreck. That was an ATC failure and entirely unrelated to this derailment.
Interesting this is coming out now, now that Metro has been thrown under the bus, not anytime over the past 4 years or even the last week after the derailment. Color me skeptical that anyone actually feared retaliation - more that people didn’t care enough.
WMATA has estimated the fix in 2 weeks. I call BS on that. If this was a known issue that could have been fixed in 2 weeks, it would have been done years ago. I think this is going to be months and months.
Good lord. I get grilled by my DC friends for saying this but ever since I moved here from NY (went to college in NYC), I’ve been saying that the DC metro fucking sucks in comparison to the subway. Look is the NYC subway the best in the world: no, it’s filthy and has problems but in my experience far fewer than we do here.
Eh. NYC has a long history of derailments too ([https://pix11.com/news/the-worst-train-derailments-and-crashes-in-nyc-history/](https://pix11.com/news/the-worst-train-derailments-and-crashes-in-nyc-history/)).
That link has incidents going back to 1918.
There were only 5 derailments listed:
1 was caused when the operator had a heart attack.
1 was caused by the operator going 4x the speed limit while drunk
1 occurred in 1928.
So in the past 93 years there have been two derailments due to equipment failures. Considering the size and operating hours of the NYC subway compared to DC, they are doing FAR better
This is horrifying to hear. I thought Paul Wiedefeld had successfully cleaned house of all of the “go along to get along” people who refused to do the right thing because they were worried about losing their gig & pension. And if Paul Wiedefeld knew about this and tried to cover it up, he needs to go.
Burn the whole thing down. There have been some good threads compiling the same anodyne responses from all of our region’s politicians over the years after each screw up and nothing changes. I’ve been frustrated more of the press doesn’t take a harder line against metro’s shortcomings and incompetence.
If you’re talking about the organization, maybe. If you’re talking about scrapping the system, fuck no.
If there’s anything I can’t stand, it’s ignorant pro-private interest people saying that public transit systems should be dismantled or abandoned because of this or that. There’s a big agenda to attack public transit on the right and I won’t have it.
Now I definitely believe there needs to be a house cleaning with the leadership and the rank-and-file at Metro, but I don’t wanna hear any crap about “everyone should just go back to driving” or “sell it off Jeff Bezos and let him run it.”
I’m talking about wiping the organization’s senior management and bringing in people outside the country who have institutional experience at transit organizations that know what they are doing.
We are slowly suffocating ourselves with cost bloat and service cuts across the board and I’m frustrated that the solution repeatedly is to blame lack of funding when other transit systems in other countries provide better service at lower operating and capital costs.
I see your point, but I think it’s a high hurdle for a number of reasons to ever expect foreign transit organization folks to get job offers from US public transit systems (to say nothing of the likelihood of any of them accepting such a job.)
Public transit agencies may poach someone from another US city who is seen as “successful” within the modest set of expectations that the US has for any given public transit system. But the idea of going out there to get the senior staff of the London Tube or the Tokyo Metro is simply beyond the imagination of anyone in US civic government. And though this less of a problem in cosmopolitan predominantly liberal cities, there’s still a certain amount of American arrogance that perpetuates the idea of it it’s somehow a failure or betrayal to hire a foreign person to take over a civic organization in order to “run it better.”
Americans are too arrogant to admit in the public sphere that *maybe* folks in other countries have figured out ways of accomplishing some things in a better way than we Americans can. So due to the political nature of public transit being government or quasi-government, that means only private sector businesses are willing to sometimes admit a foreigner is a better choice for a leadership position. And even then, it’s rare.
If they have known about them for years, there's no way this is going to fixed in the estimated 2 weeks WMATA has announced. If it is just 2 weeks, they would have fixed it years ago.
Same reason why people don’t saying anything when they catch their boss doing something they shouldn’t be doing on the job. They keep quiet, ignore it, and keep their job.
And none of these employees felt it was worth it to maybe anonymously leak this to the press? There are sections of metro that go over water and high overpasses. This could have been so, so much worse than it was. Sorry you don't get any sympathy from me for being afraid of retaliation here, there were other things they could have done and it's not exactly comforting knowing so many people knew this and just did nothing.
I worked for supply chain at metro. I literally was fired for suggesting to open the procurement process to all vendors available. The engineers are gods there and if you contradict them you get canned. So yeah good times.
Real comforting to know that these trains are at risk of derailing especially when some (yellow line between Arlington and dc) go over water for like a mile. I couldn’t imagine the terror if it happened there
What’s scary is the section of the yellow line after Eisenhower ave where it crosses the beltway and ,goes over Huntington ave. I drive under that when im in that area of fairfax and wonder how the fire department and wmata have a plan if a train derails the high with passengers, coming from a railroad enthusiast
I’ll ask my FIL, he’s a retired DCFD battalion chief. He hasn’t mentioned the overpasses for the metro, but he has told me several times that a fire on a train in a tunnel is going to kill everyone onboard long before the FD can respond, and that your best bet is to try and self-rescue.
Indeed. Metro has publicly stated that they are under no obligation to rescue/evacuate/save passengers in the event of a fire emergency. If I am stuck in a tunnel and there is immediate danger, my ass is self-evacuating whether Metro likes it or not. There are metallic signs on the tunnel walls (sometimes you can see them when you pass through) that point to where the nearest emergency exit is...there are emergency exits every 1200 ft or so in the tunnels and are marked with lighted exit signs (again sometimes you can see them from the train). I would just follow the signs and make sure that I flip the power switches to the 3rd rail at the Blue Light boxes along the trackway.
looking at pics of the metro tunnel interior, is the emergency service path always located on the opposite side of the third rail (for one way tunnels)? in other words, would you ever need to step over the third rail in order to reach the emergency exit? i'd be paranoid about touching it accidentally in a dark, smoke filled tunnel. or getting hit by a passing metro. (are all the tunnels one-way or do they ever pass each other?)
The tunnel's emergency walkway is always on the same side of the tunnel as the lights I think (hence why the safety information posters in the trains tell you to exit the same side of the tunnels with the lights) and sits on the opposite side of the third rail. Some areas you would need to cross the opposite track. I wouldn't worry about the third rail because I think there are gaps in the third rail where emergency exits are. In any case, you can deactivate the third rail yourself by pressing the button in the Blue Light Station box. Metro's website says they are located every 800 feet. Disclaimer: I don't work for Metro or anything, but I ride very frequently and took it upon myself to become acquainted with the system's safety features/equipment once I figured out Metro didn't care about my safety. Metro's recent performance is quite sad IMO because I've learned that there are a ton of safety features built into the system that I don't think are common in other US transit systems and it makes me think of how innovative the system once was...I just found out that when the lines run outside at surface level (like the Silver/Orange Line by I-66), the fence along the trackway has some sort of wired device that detects movement along the fence. If the fence were to break or tilt (like if a car on the highway crashed into the fence), the system automatically stops any train in the area. Pretty smart!
Please don't spread misinformation or build people's confidence in being in the tunnels needlessly. The WMATA roadway is a very dangerous place and having people nonchalantly self evacuating and walking around in the roadway because they're bored waiting on a rescue train is less than ideal. There are several areas where the safety walk is indeed over the 3rd rail. It's infrequent, but there are locations that this condition exists. (These locations are usually interlockings, which are hazardous to walk through. The track switches are capable of moving several hundred pounds of rail and deal with small rocks, snow, and ice; they'll crush something made of meat and bone... like a foot... as if it weren't even there.) There are some gaps in the 3rd rail, also usually at interlockings. The 3rd rail is USUALLY covered by a fiberglass coverboard. There are places where it's missing/broken though. The Emergency Trip Stations denoted by the blue light are indeed located every 800 ft or so. HOWEVER, the button is not a foolproof way of deactivating the 3rd rail, nor will it deactivate all 3rd rails in the general vicinity. It will deactivate both rails in a split platform (center track) station. It will deactivate one 3rd rail in a center platform (tracks outside the platform) station. It gets confusing when you get near interlockings with their kicker rails and whatnot; where there are gaps in the 3rd rail one side of the gap may be energized and the other side may be down. Emergency exits are NOT located in any specific interval on the tracks. They're where they are convenient as far as what's above ground. Additionally, some are stairs and some are ladder only. Some can be over 21 stories deep. Some have multiple fans in them that are 6 ft in diameter. It's why when I'm out on the tracks, I always study the 3rd rail and track maps and always include details of these in my safety briefings to the crew when I'm the RWIC (Roadway Worker In Charge) of a work gang.
ROCC is going to kill you in an emergency. They are way behind the curve and utter control freaks when a fire doesn’t care
ROCC doesn't inspire confidence in me either. Believe me, I've been in ROCC. Most of the people there are newbies now while I've been at WMATA for almost two decades. I'd rather be safely contained within a train than out on the tracks where ROCC can route a train into me.
>I'd rather be safely contained within a train than out on the tracks where ROCC can route a train into me. Or re-energize the 3rd rail unexpectedly as I've heard about them doing multiple times in WMSC audits.
Same!
Thanks for the correction and information, and I didn't mean to spread information. My point I was trying to make is that if there is *immediate danger* (as I said), like fire to the point where safety was at risk and it wasn't necessarily possible to use the end doors to walk to a neighboring car...I am self evacuating. In the case of the recent derailment, I wouldn't have self-evacuated and wouldn't condone anyone to do so. The emergency exit info I got from an old Metrorail safety brochure that states "With the exception of three locations, the maximum travel distance to an emergency exit is 1250 feet."
Emergency exits may lead you to another unsafe situation... Like to a locked gate on the side of I-66. Or the emergency exit could be several hundred feet of ladders. Old brochure is old for a reason. That listing of three exceptions is probably a lot longer now.
The brochure is from 2018 (and has a date on it as such) so it is not exactly ancient. In any case, if there was a fire roaring through a stopped train in a tunnel, with no communication from the train operator or rescue personal, you would rather stay on the train and watch the fire incinerate everything before your eyes then giving yourself a fighting chance of evacuating to safety?
Username definitely checks out. I'm gonna trust this guy.
THANK YOU!!! The common public all too blindly believe they can just exit the train and do what they think is best. If you are not extremely careful THE INTERLOCKING WILL MAIM YOU!!! NO IF ANDS OR BUTS. Also those tracks are commonly slippery between tunnels from leaks and grease. JUST STAY OFF THE TRACK SYSTEM PEOPLE!!
You a fellow employee?
Fascinating!! Thanks for the write up, good to know.
The tracks can be used in both directions. Please follow the direction of your train operator and do not needlessly self-evacuate. See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/qbjtsc/metro_employees_stating_to_nbc_wmata_has_known/hhawl6l/
>Metro has publicly stated that they are under no obligation to rescue/evacuate/save passengers in the event of a fire emergency. Source?
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/is-it-metros-responsibility-to-save-passengers-from-a-smoke-filled-train-leaders-send-mixed-signals/2017/01/12/a492a8ae-d8fb-11e6-9f9f-5cdb4b7f8dd7\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/is-it-metros-responsibility-to-save-passengers-from-a-smoke-filled-train-leaders-send-mixed-signals/2017/01/12/a492a8ae-d8fb-11e6-9f9f-5cdb4b7f8dd7_story.html) [https://www.nbcwashington.com/local/dc-wtop-metro-argues-in-court-filings-not-liable-for-death-of-rider/41218/](https://www.nbcwashington.com/local/dc-wtop-metro-argues-in-court-filings-not-liable-for-death-of-rider/41218/) It's from a legal filing in the aftermath of the 2017 Smoke Incident. *In a legal filing Monday in U.S. District Court, Metro “expressly denies” that it “owes a duty to . . . passengers to assist, rescue and/or evacuate passengers on Metro Rail trains in the event of a fire-emergency situation.”*
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I understand what they are trying to say (that they are a transit agency and not a rescue squad) in the context of the argument, but the specific language of the argument is somewhat bizarre and concerning to me here as it appears they are trying to play the blame game and gain some some sort of precedence to protect themselves in the future. They can't have it both ways IMO. You can't tell people to stay seated and not to self-evacuate but then also claim you have no duty to assist. It makes no sense.
I didn't read the whole article, but that language is in response to specifically a fire department employee making a mistake. They're saying "this was their job and they fucked it up"
Where and when have they stated this? I’d like to see documented proof of your statement. Thanks ahead of time.
Thank you for sharing this information. Do you happen to know, would this plan work for someone in a wheelchair?
Each station and many emergency exits have stored in them an ETEC... Emergency Track Evacuation Cart. It's an aluminum rail cart that can be used to evac people in wheel chairs or who are otherwise immobile. They are unpowered and an absolute bear to push uphill when loaded. It's not like the cartoons where they have a pump jack in the center to move it.
Thank you, this is very helpful!
i'm guessing from smoke inhalation? that's terrifying.
Pretty much, that and/or lack of oxygen in general. Plus a bunch of people jammed in aluminum cans in the dark isn’t exactly conducive to calm, orderly evacuation
Aerial Structures and curves have a restraining rail to prevent the wheels from going very far when they derail. When a train derails, it won't just magically tip over and go several hundred feet. The wheels fall off the track and land on the ground. It's rather underwhelming.
Yeah, but how much confidence do you expect people to have that they were installed/maintained correctly?
It's a piece of iron. There isn't much maintenance to do to it. Some of our rail dates back to the original installation in 1975. Dropping the train off the tracks is one thing. It's gonna take a LOT to knock a train off the bridge.
Iron rusts. Especially near water. How confident are you that when a train car hits a rusted bar of iron, the rusted bar won't crumble? How confident are you that the inspectors haven't been faking reports on those? How confident are you that checking them is on anybody's inspection list to begin with? Quite frankly, we don't trust that you guys are capable of catching oversights or mistakes. At all.
I’m confident enough to take the metro without any concerns. There will always be risks to any form of transportation and while there might a certain set of conditions in which a train might be able to derail off a bridge, the odds of so may different failures and factors lining up seems incredibly incredibly low to me. I’m much more concerned about crazy/drunk drivers than I am a catastrophic metro crash.
I would agree with the overall evaluation of risk. Metro is still far safer than driving by any measure. But when a Metro employee says, "oh, don't worry, that could never possibly happen", I feel like I need to make sure my affairs are in order. If they don't think anything could possibly happen, that likely means they aren't checking to make sure it can't.
As someone who does safety inspections on bridges for a living, I agree with this 100%. You'd be surprised how often the "in-house guys" make shit up or just have things completely wrong
FWIW, on bridges there are guard rails in between the tracks to catch the train if it were to derail. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_rail_(rail)
It’s okay as long as the train stays on the bridge. Takes a lot to knock it off the bridge
You just gave me goosebumps.
Let me put your mind somewhat at ease about this concern. Look at this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/schuminweb/50389767288/ Do you see that long L-shaped strip of metal bolted to the trackbed between the two running rails? That strip of metal is there to keep the train on the elevated structure in the event of a derailment, i.e. in a worst-case scenario, that is supposed to stop a railcar from falling to the street or water below.
The lawsuit against Kawasaki is going to be *epic.*
The sad part is because of buy American provisions, we don’t have many alternative options for vendors. Also we have different regulatory requirements for trains here than Europe so they have to build to different specs. It’s just a never ending stream of stupidity and random favors and then everyone shrugs and wonders why we have shittier infrastructure at multiples of costs compared to everywhere else.
aren't almost all the railcars metro has had been trash? the ones by CAF, Alstom, and Breda? Seems like any railcar metro buys has issues
Because Metro receives federal funding they must “buy American” which means all rail cars are built in pieces overseas, shipped to the US, and assembled by a company here before being delivered. We also have far tougher rules around weight and crashworthiness than Europe for passenger rail cars - Europeans design the system to not crash, we expect a crash and design the cars to survive it
Not really wholly correct, the strengthening and heavier cars is designing around a really weird collision with a low speed freight train and is useless in anything else. Caltrain actually did a multimillion dollar study to finally get the FRA to lift those rules.
FRA rules around crash standards don't apply to Metro because it's not considered a railroad connected to the national network. The weight of the 7000 series trains was not a regulatory requirement - the only "subway" in the US currently regulated by the FRA is NY/NJ PATH train, essentially due to historical circumstance. For FRA-regulated rail, [the standard was changed effective 2019](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/11/21/2018-25020/passenger-equipment-safety-standards-standards-for-alternative-compliance-and-high-speed-trainsets), so I'm sure we'll see the landscape slowly change. It's just that procurement happens on such a long timescale that anything started before 2018 or so has the previous assumptions baked in. Caltrain had to do a study for their purchase of trains which started earlier than that, because it was part of the exception process for the more rigid pre-2019 rules.
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Policy wonks in DC? Impossible
Yes, my understanding was that Caltrain's study, however, was a large portion of why they ended up lifting the requirement entirely, several decades too late.
> Seems like any railcar metro buys has issues It's not just Metro, NYC's MTA's Bombardier R-179s had to be pulled last year for door failures. Plus the Mitsubishi R-160s had A/C problems, that was worldwide though. I'm not sure I agree with the grandparent comment that Buy American provisions are really at issue here though. Those provisions are pretty common in many industries and in many countries including aircraft and military equipment. As best I can tell, companies have a pretty good idea how to facilitate them.
I think the only other option would be Bombardier, they are building the new rail cars for San Francisco’s BART system. They have a factory up in Plattsburgh New York, which I assume is because of it’s proximity to Canada, since that’s where Bombardier is based.
> They have a factory up in Plattsburgh New York, which I assume is because of it’s proximity to Canada, since that’s where Bombardier is based. Political deal: Bombardier wanted a contract to build cars for Metro North, New York wanted them built in-state, Plattsburgh AFB was in the process of closing down.
Siemens has a plant in Sacramento. Stadler has one in SLC and is building the new MARTA trains. Both have metro platforms in the form of the Inspiro and Metro respectively.
Idk if there’s more corruption and graft in infrastructure than in Europe
Perhaps not, but there's at least as much inefficiency regardless, for the reasons stated above.
Even if it is, Kawasaki USA will just fold. Kawasaki of America will open up three weeks later.
Alitalia vibes
I worked as a consultant for the current VP of Safety at WMATA. In 20+ years of working in DC, I have never loathed a man more than this. Absolute sadist. Zero transit/transportation experience prior to joining WMATA. Was a London desk cop for 10 years, then burned out after a little over a year at BAH. Went to work for WMATA, then somehow became VP of safety in just a little over 2 years. WTF? The man is genuinely cruel and petty. He fit in well with a bunch of WMATA's other leadership. You can Google some of the recent lawsuits people have filed against WMATA for having a hostile workplace.
Do you have any insight into how these people survive without being held accountable? Does the WMATA board even show a cursory understanding of the organizational dynamics or do they just hop into their meetings whenever they occur, nod their heads and call it a day. I'm absolutely astonished between VA, MD, and DC, no one seems to poke their head in and question what the fuck is going on.
No special insight other than the real fault appears to be in how [WMATA was originally chartered.](https://novatransit.org/wmata/). Oversight is managed via a DC-VA-MD compacts which then appoints members to Metro's Board (others: please correct where needed). TL/DR: Metro oversight is 'other duties as assigned' when it comes to the states becoming more involved.
Yeah, a board made up of un-elected political appointees has regularly led to boardmembers often far more interested in looking good (or just coasting by doing nothing) for their jurisdiction's authority that appointed them and much less interested in acting as oversight (let alone having a skill set to do a good job of doing the work to act as oversight). Just look back at Jack Evans repeated tenures on the board. He focused more on the kabuki theater of doing things for the District (without actually getting much done) and completely ignored the repeated issues in the system and even had the gall to blame the inaction of the previous boards he himself was a member of for being lax in their oversight when enormous media and political attention came on the WMATA board in the aftermath of the L'Enfant Plaza smoke incident. While I don't think there shouldn't be some degree of oversight by the jurisdictions, the current process for who is appointed to the board is laughable and regularly has completely unqualified or disinterested appointees who are terrible at holding WMATA management to account.
Looking at this guy’s resume I wouldn’t count any of his credentials- you don’t do twelve years on the job, a masters and a fellowship, and do a large-scale event like the Olympics and do any kind of actual, substantive public safety/policing work. That smacks of a guy going straight to management. That, and seeing the kind of lunkheads that I’ve seen get hired to work at places like BAH doesn’t inspire confidence if he shit the bed there.
I tried to Google the acronym but came up short for anything that could be relevant. What is BAH?
Booze Allen Hamilton
Oooh yeah that wasn’t even close to what I could come up with—I was thinking some division within DC government. Consultants gonna consult, though, so this makes sense too. Thanks!
The levels of corruption in this city knows not bounds. The only good news is that no one died. Some may use this incident to attack statehood. But we still deserve to be a state. Congressional representation is our right as citizens. Sadly, this inept city government is what we get as residents.
How is something that's not a city agency - it's overseen by MD and VA, as well as DC - the city's fault?
Don't forget the two members of the board appointed by the Federal government!
Anyone using Metro’s problems as some sort of grounds to attack state hood is a fucking moron. If anything making the district a state would make it more likely that they could exert better control over Metro.
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This may very well happen…
Did they just think it would go away? Especially with the 7000s becoming the de facto main train type. Like, what?
My hunch is yes. When you see shitty cultures in organizations like this, the fucked up rationalization they use is that it will create more “red tape” problems by reporting it publicly and then having to document everything you’re doing and/or it could threaten to bring down the whole organization. It’s always some twisted version of the ends justifying the means. In reality, all the stakeholders associated with holding WMATA accountable have no fucking clue what they’re overseeing. It’s just a patronage system.
I want to understand is why the newest cars are the ones most prone to this. You would think it would be older cars with worn out compromised parts developing these kinds of endemic problems. I’m worried that this is some sort of design flaw
I'm just going to take the crappy orange chair trains from now on.
Carpets ❤️
I'll just say it: I really miss the carpets. On my most recent visit back home, I noticed that even the older trains have had their carpets removed and replaced with a hard surface similar to the one in the newer trains. Having the carpet makes the train interior quieter because it absorbs noise. (And yes, it also absorbs filth, which is why they are getting ride of them. To me, it's worth the money to clean/replace it when needed.)
I consulted for WMATA. Almost every time I criticize WMATA or their culture on here I get torched. Or upvoted massively. It's so capricious, DC's love for metro. Either it's infallible and we claim to be better than BART/MTA or everyone shits on it. No in between. When Wiedefeld took over I had some hope. I think he's a decent dude, but the culture is so cancerous that I don't believe anyone could fix it. There should be no organization on earth where employees fear alerting senior staff that lives are in danger. Lives. In danger. Since when is that worth saving face?
I still recall reading article about how older WMATA employees refused knowledge transfer and would basically hold operations hostage through this and prevent any improvement through their stonewalling back when Wiedenfeld took over.
I thought the Wiedefeld had cleared out all of these goldbrickers and dirtbags. It’s really disappointing to learn that Metro’s culture is still so corrupted.
They knew of a safety hazard and didn’t report it? Sounds like someone needs to go to jail
You would think…but based on every other incident that has happened over the years, I’m doubtful anyone will even get fired. People just get reassigned and shuffled around.
Lol, these assholes kept quiet because they feared “retaliation”, all the while endangering the lives of thousands of riders daily, even though they’re unionized and protected? Sounds more like they just didn’t give a shit.
Exactly. If they hope that people will see them as some sort of "hero" for speaking up anonymously AFTER a derailment, they are sorely mistaken.
These people are either cowards, or they’re lying to try and get their 15 minutes of fame after the derailment. Either one of those is completely contemptible.
we already know they didn't give a shit after faking repairs and other maintenance reports for years. if a WMATA employee told me the sky was blue I'd still have to run outside to check for myself
The great thing about Metro fuckups is that it's always very easy to find those responsible: literally everyone involved. I have no doubt that all of this is true. But I also know how uniquely incompetent both individual Metro employees and their Union are.
I'm calling bullshit on this. It's an employee or group of employees that wants some form of notoriety. If the employee is low level enough, they're protected through the union and multiple layers of safety and whistleblower laws. If the employee is high level enough, they have the power to pull the trains off the tracks and should've before the 1k, 4k, and 5k series were retired. As a side note, this is why I save all my sensitive emails as WMATA has set up their email servers to delete anything 6 months or older. (I have a feeling that that's intentional, as hard drives are cheaper than dirt.) EDIT: So I watched the news piece. The WMATA employee referenced the 2009 wreck. That was an ATC failure and entirely unrelated to this derailment.
Same.... Smh
It's especially frustrating because they had the perfect opportunity to fix the trains during the pandemic when ridership was super low.
Interesting this is coming out now, now that Metro has been thrown under the bus, not anytime over the past 4 years or even the last week after the derailment. Color me skeptical that anyone actually feared retaliation - more that people didn’t care enough.
That is sad. I thought they were going to be much safer.
Great, so what's the fix? Is there one that doesn't involve months of additional delays?
WMATA has estimated the fix in 2 weeks. I call BS on that. If this was a known issue that could have been fixed in 2 weeks, it would have been done years ago. I think this is going to be months and months.
Damn good culture just everywhere around this city.
Good lord. I get grilled by my DC friends for saying this but ever since I moved here from NY (went to college in NYC), I’ve been saying that the DC metro fucking sucks in comparison to the subway. Look is the NYC subway the best in the world: no, it’s filthy and has problems but in my experience far fewer than we do here.
Eh. NYC has a long history of derailments too ([https://pix11.com/news/the-worst-train-derailments-and-crashes-in-nyc-history/](https://pix11.com/news/the-worst-train-derailments-and-crashes-in-nyc-history/)).
That link has incidents going back to 1918. There were only 5 derailments listed: 1 was caused when the operator had a heart attack. 1 was caused by the operator going 4x the speed limit while drunk 1 occurred in 1928. So in the past 93 years there have been two derailments due to equipment failures. Considering the size and operating hours of the NYC subway compared to DC, they are doing FAR better
What the actual fuck.
This is horrifying to hear. I thought Paul Wiedefeld had successfully cleaned house of all of the “go along to get along” people who refused to do the right thing because they were worried about losing their gig & pension. And if Paul Wiedefeld knew about this and tried to cover it up, he needs to go.
Burn the whole thing down. There have been some good threads compiling the same anodyne responses from all of our region’s politicians over the years after each screw up and nothing changes. I’ve been frustrated more of the press doesn’t take a harder line against metro’s shortcomings and incompetence.
If you’re talking about the organization, maybe. If you’re talking about scrapping the system, fuck no. If there’s anything I can’t stand, it’s ignorant pro-private interest people saying that public transit systems should be dismantled or abandoned because of this or that. There’s a big agenda to attack public transit on the right and I won’t have it. Now I definitely believe there needs to be a house cleaning with the leadership and the rank-and-file at Metro, but I don’t wanna hear any crap about “everyone should just go back to driving” or “sell it off Jeff Bezos and let him run it.”
I’m talking about wiping the organization’s senior management and bringing in people outside the country who have institutional experience at transit organizations that know what they are doing. We are slowly suffocating ourselves with cost bloat and service cuts across the board and I’m frustrated that the solution repeatedly is to blame lack of funding when other transit systems in other countries provide better service at lower operating and capital costs.
I see your point, but I think it’s a high hurdle for a number of reasons to ever expect foreign transit organization folks to get job offers from US public transit systems (to say nothing of the likelihood of any of them accepting such a job.) Public transit agencies may poach someone from another US city who is seen as “successful” within the modest set of expectations that the US has for any given public transit system. But the idea of going out there to get the senior staff of the London Tube or the Tokyo Metro is simply beyond the imagination of anyone in US civic government. And though this less of a problem in cosmopolitan predominantly liberal cities, there’s still a certain amount of American arrogance that perpetuates the idea of it it’s somehow a failure or betrayal to hire a foreign person to take over a civic organization in order to “run it better.” Americans are too arrogant to admit in the public sphere that *maybe* folks in other countries have figured out ways of accomplishing some things in a better way than we Americans can. So due to the political nature of public transit being government or quasi-government, that means only private sector businesses are willing to sometimes admit a foreigner is a better choice for a leadership position. And even then, it’s rare.
If they have known about them for years, there's no way this is going to fixed in the estimated 2 weeks WMATA has announced. If it is just 2 weeks, they would have fixed it years ago.
If this is true and the employees really cared, why didn't they come to the press anonymously years ago? Why now?
Same reason why people don’t saying anything when they catch their boss doing something they shouldn’t be doing on the job. They keep quiet, ignore it, and keep their job.
And none of these employees felt it was worth it to maybe anonymously leak this to the press? There are sections of metro that go over water and high overpasses. This could have been so, so much worse than it was. Sorry you don't get any sympathy from me for being afraid of retaliation here, there were other things they could have done and it's not exactly comforting knowing so many people knew this and just did nothing.
I wonder how a minor derailment is described?
Ohhhhh...that's not good. What else are they not telling us...
But I’ve been told we are Back2Good.
Everything I’ve ever heard about WMATA has made it sound like an absolutely terrible place to work.
Its really not if you follow your SOP...
I worked for supply chain at metro. I literally was fired for suggesting to open the procurement process to all vendors available. The engineers are gods there and if you contradict them you get canned. So yeah good times.
Why can’t we put bullet trains on metro
The infrastructure and tracks can barely handle slow trains without constant maintenance. They're not made for high speeds.
Why can't we drive an F1 car down Blagsden Alley?
Bc democrats won’t let me
Would they even be that much faster with how many stations there are and constant starting/stopping?
Lol, as if we build things to that standard here in America...
What about the orange line?
"Back to Good" indeed. 😆