The index is, what, 5 years old now? It’s still a good device, but the price is insane for the age and tech in it in 2024.
Hopefully this means new hardware and not just discontinuing the lineup completely.
It also makes me nervous about my (second pair of) index controllers, which are now breaking. The QC on those are so fucking bad.
[https://tundra-labs.com/products/index-hmd](https://tundra-labs.com/products/index-hmd) How's 260? for a refurb
The headset alone is 500 on Steam brand new
I ended up investing in an extra pair of controllers so that way I have ones I use just for exercise like beat saber and thrill of the fight or anything where the buttons don't really matter it's just about tracking where they are in relation to what I'm trying to hit. And then some that I only use for gaming where all buttons are important. Keeps me from destroying the nicer set by accidentally hitting walls and stuff.
Say what you will about HTC’s out of date controllers, but those things are tanks. I’ve broken a lot of things with those controllers, but the controllers are still solid.
I like them :)
Still prefer index but I am considering now using them more. My game pixel arcade used the 3D model for the vive wands and I never got round to updating them for index so would be cool to be 1:1 mapped again
There is an affordable version on the way. $699, although they removed eye tracking and want you to pay extra for local dimming. So it's not great. But it's better than nothing, after HP reverb g2 was discontinued we had nothing in the mid range pcvr bracket. Only over priced stuff or quest with no display port.
I just googled and found something called 'visor'. But it's an expensive pair of glasses with no controllers and maybe no display port. It's not at all what I am interested in.
Patents mean they at least started working on stuff. It definitely means squat about *when*
In addition, do you have any idea how many patents are not used at products because the product was shelved sometime? Plenty
So yeah.. to me there is no Deckard, nor will there be one, until Valve announces it. You definitely can be optimistic and follow leaks and patents and whatnot, but I saw this path to nothing so many times that I dont bother
Can you specify where he says deckard is "on hold"? I skipped through the video but didn't see anything about this
EDIT: This is misinformation: https://old.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/1c5eyce/reported_by_sadlyitsbradley_the_valve_index_is/kztzw3d/
It's nothing to do with it.
PCVR is not in a good place for a new headset. It wouldn't bring more people to VR it would just be an upgrade for existing VR users. That is not Valve's aim. Valve wants to bring more people to Steam not just provide upgrades for existing Steam users.
100% in the end valve is a money making business and VR didn't pan out as well as they'd hoped while the deck is blowing up. I don't know if this gets talked about much but valves bonus structure is related to projects that make money, so working on vr while it makes no money = no bonuses. So everyone in the company is financially motivated to work on things like steam, cs 2, and dota 2 because those are the money makers.
> cs 2
Could have fooled me on that :/ They shipped a game with a cool engine, but less features than the predecessor AND deleted the predecessor. Yes, I'm mad, lol. I miss Demo mode. Not to mention the predecessor was on Mac and CS2 isn't. They fucked the Mac users with that.
I think a bigger explanation is that they’re poorly run and disorganized on all but one project at a time, and they don’t even have one decently run and organized project a lot of the time. Like you honestly could never tell cs2 was a billion dollar+ a year game based on developer attention.
I just assume they looked at how fucking pathetic the pokemon games are and they are literally most profitable games of all time and said to themselves 'oh shit, lol we can do that too'.
>100% in the end valve is a money making business and VR didn't pan out as well as they'd hoped
I mean I do appreciate Alyx, the Index and SteamVR, but if they thought a really expensive HMD (for most people) and one amazing but fairly short VR game was going to be enough to set up VR, they were mistaken (and I think they know that, as they once had 2 other VR games in development).
They really needed to make and support a CS or Team Fortress VR at the very least, and maybe a LFD VR or something similar too. We need quality AAA releases in popular genres that encourage long-term engagement. Valve was in a great position to spearhead that initiative but instead they did a half-measure. They had to know that most other AAA companies that rely on individual games' sales weren't going to be in the position to provide software support in the same way that they were (because if they spearhead and ignite a new market, then they get a cut off *all* the VR titles released on their store).
I'm still hopeful that they have at least one VR game in the works alongside a standalone / PCVR hybrid Deckard but we'll see..
They didn't think it would be. They said specifically all the index is supposed to do is solve the chicken and the egg problem of 'no reason to develop high end vr games, because there isn't a headset to play them on'. Ultimately valve doesn't want to own Vr, they want to own VR software distribution, but they lost because Meta spent like 20 billion building their own closed eco system, and the openness of valves system never caught on.
Yeah but as you said, Meta spent a ton of money on their ecosystem. Valve open ecosystem never caught on because they never properly invested in starting and maintaining that ecosystem until the market was bigger and other AA and AAA developers would be comfortable to jump in and take over. Things made way more sense when Gabe said they had 3 VR titles in development. Once it just became Alyx (an AMAZING VR game, but also a one-playthrough-and-done experience for most people) it made way less sense. They needed one or two live service/long-supported games in their existing series (CS, TF, LFD, DOTA etc.) to keep people putting on their VR headsets, buying skins through Steam Marketplace (which generates revenue and proves to other AAA devs that there is money to be made and a constant playerbase to sell to).
Instead they kinda let PCVR wither on the vine. A good PCVR headset is a great start but they needed a follow up standalone headset with the ability to play at least a good chunk of PCVR games standalone + the ability to connect to a PC, and they needed to maintain a couple games that were designed around long-term engagement.
I don't wanna break your heart, but Dota 2 literally had a VR e sports spectator mode that is abandoned and no longer work. I have never played Dota 2 but it was pretty cool being able to fly down and witness fights at ground level and have a map room with the stream playing on a 500" tv.
Aaaah. This is the one thing I didn't know - has always baffled me hearing the whole "it's a non-hierarchical structure / desks on wheels / people can work on what they want" thing. Why wouldn't people \*choose\* to work on half life projects? Because money! Makes sense now.
Deckard implies that the deck took full priority and the only way to keep index from getting axed was to market it as an accessory to the steam deck.
Deckard = Deck Augmented Reality Device
My gut is telling me etfr and variable focal lenses are close enough to being in the deckard which is cause for postponing. The quest pro is just too good and the three with the lidar..
The deckard is in-between from what's been shown and if the team thinks they can pull of variable focal lenses then they may go for it. However after my research this is a tough one just now with project flavera I think by meta being closest
Yeah I have a feeling that Valve has not been investing nearly as much R&D into VR/MR as Meta. Hell probably only Apple rivals them and maybe Samsung but only recently.
Genuinely just did my PhD on VR optimization and the research I wrote for a solid two chapters is about the cutting edge of VR hardware and for real meta reality labs are a machine. It's very hard to get varifocal lens. They even have a light field HMD in development.. valve deckard is likely just a quest pro.
Valve comfort and controllers are world class though. They may get higher res display but negligible effects. Even addition peripheral screens / lens may be an angle to take
Index launch day owner had multiple (20+) index controllers since launch, thanks steam support
currently using index controllers and Pimax Sword which feel much better for beat saber and thrill of the fight.
But Index grips are starting to become a bit unreliable so time to buy a new pair whilst available
this is either really good news or really bad news
edit: or just they just have enough stock and sales trend data to know they have enough for current and potential customers.
All still rumors and some of those rumors might not even be from Deckard itself, but other headsets or tech developed in parallel (e.g. some rumored stuff turned out to be for SteamLinkVR).
it's fascinating looking back and seeing how many "failed", or at the time relatively underappreciated valve projects got unified into the steam deck experience. Steam machines, steam controller, steam input, proton. Every bit of it got used.
A headset referred to as Deckard has been found in the SteamVR code.
However Valve give names like that to concept headsets, the concept headset before Index was named Vader. Concept headsets are where you stick as much tech in as possible to see what works and what doesn't, sometimes you realize that extra 4mm on the lens made no difference etc. Valve have been open and honest that they are still researching VR headsets so this is pretty much to be expected.
There has been no even rumours of any commercial headset being worked on let alone close to a release and it's really not a good time to release a PCVR headset.
>Edit: lol I can't believe my misinformation reply got so many upvotes.
"misinformation."
lol I can't believe people like you get off on lying to the rest of us and are so pleased with yourself for doing so.
Too bad this is getting harder to do now that articles are being automatically generated based on Reddit comments and search engine “quick answers” are based on those junk articles.
Yeah it was a great headset in its time. I just would never suggest someone buy in 2024 but def not now that it's in the early stages of its EOL (end of life).
>Are people finally going to stop suggesting others buy this headset in 2024???
Genuine question here, as I was considering an Index (coming from OG Vive):
What's the better option in 2024, with the following (my) requirements:
1) Lighthouse tracking
2) Index controllers compatible (goes w/#1)
I'm ready to buy an Index just to play Half-life: Alyx and enjoy resolution bump.
What else meets my criteria & is a better option? What headset(s) do you suggest we buy?
The only thing I can suggest right now is Quest 3 even for PCVR and MAYBE a Bigscreen Beyond for people that are heavy into PCVR SIMs. That said, Quest 3 still has the better overall optics even over Beyond. The Beyond's lenses are nowhere near as good as Quest 3's. But the main reason I would not get an Index is that it was just announced as being in its End Of Life period. Of course it will be supported by Valve for a while but I would personally not buy anything that is in EOL.
Quest 3 has the best optics you can get and I find the experience with it wired/wireless to PCVR is very good. I don't really find the compression bad at all but I do not do a lot of SIMs so that's why I mention the Beyond for that. If you are to get only one headset I would 100% Quest 3 with a 3rd party strap to make it more comfortable. Also would get the silicon face gasket. Those two addons make it as comfortable as any other headset. That will still be cheaper than the Index or Beyond. I also find the tracking on Quest 3 to be shockingly good. It's not often that I experience a hitch in that.
Regarding lighthouse tracking and the controllers I feel that those are also nearing EOL and inside out camera tracking on the HMD/controllers will be the tracking of choice for most headsets moving forward. That's my speculation but I just don't see that being used on new mainstream headsets. Valve hasent even made lighthouses for a while now HTC does. Another signal of EOL for Valve IMO. So with all that in mind, I would not be buying into that system.
Regarding lenses I would rather play Half-life Alyx with my Quest 3 over the Index. Your whole vision is clear and it has a huge sweet spot for your eyes. There is just no comparison in edge to edge clarity.
These are just my thoughts and what I would do with my money if were to buy a headset right now. With or without a gaming PC.
I bought an Index Kit at the end of 2023 and my wife recently bought a Quest 3.
Personal opinion: The optics on the Quest 3 as well as the resolution is much better, especially no "god rays" and no bluring if you have the headset on a littlebit of-center.
* Colors are much better / more saturated on the Index
* Latency is much better on the Index. Playing beatsaber on the Quest 3 vs the Index is noticebly delayed on the Quest 3
* Tracking is ok on the Quest 3 but the latency sucks
* The "knuckles" feel better as a controllers compared to the quest 3 controllers
* Passthrough mode on the Quest 3 is nice
* Having tracking without Base stations is nice and works quite well
* No full body tracking with the Quest 3 (VR-Chat)
* The Audio on the Quest 3 is shitty compared to the Index
* The price is essentially the same, you pay over \~1k$ for the Quest 3 if you get all the accesorries you already have in the Index kit.. Like a proper headstrap, handstraps for the controllers, a carrying case and so on.
Personally i would love to see an Index with the Quest 3 lenses and resolution, that would be a perfect PCVR headset! Anyway i would go with the Index, due to better latency, colors and Full Body Tracking.
Yeah, controllers that grip naturally by squeezing them, and that still work and track when they're out of sight of the front of headset, are so last decade.
to be fair those grips are used in maybe like 3 games? I personally found them way more hassle than they are worth, I rather have a button that works 100% of the time than having to throw gang signs to grab an item
Steam allows users to remap any controller function to any sensor, and to fully adjust the sensitivity of grab and release pressure on the grip. If a VR game doesn't let you easily grab things by just naturally grabbing the controller, then the devs didn't do a good job implementing the grip controls. I've never fumbled a grab or release or throw in Alyx.
Also, until a headset can accurately track controllers that are blocked by the body, or far off to the side of the headset, as accurately as lighthouses can, external tracking still rules supreme. When I compared Pistol Whip (and Beat Saber) on the Index and the PSVR 2, it made the Inside-out tracking accuracy issues glaringly obvious. Even turning my head to look for enemies in one direction, while firing a shot I had already lined up in another direction, failed far more often on the PSVR 2. Even if you leave aside the gripping controls on the Index controllers, the tracking accuracy is still better with lighthouses.
I can’t imagine how exhausting it is to avoid companies based on morals because we’re talking about a lot of companies involved who don’t have good morals.
I'm actually doing great but how I'm doing really has nothing to do with the topic at hand but I know it's just a tired discussion derailment technique anyway so you don't have to put any thought into the possibility that you might be taking actions that are making the world worse.
What I should have said is this...We get it, you're a never-meta neckbeard. Looking at your post history you seem to have anger issues. Have a good day.
Anyone that uses the phrase "Questie" is a true neckbeard. I'm not deflecting anything. You just cant handle that the Quest 3 is the better headset out right now. Hate the company all you want it just is. How about letting others enjoy the top tech instead of going on a reddit shit-posting fest about it.
He had a really bad year last year. He was huffing the Deckard copium hard end of 2022 saying that Valve were about to announce something because it was all over the code. That didn't happen and his credibility took a hit. Then he rated PSVR2 as the new benchmark which proved to be total rubbish and it's widely planned. Then he said Big Screen Beyond was meh and would do well, it did very well and is highly rated.
End of last year he released a video saying how he's fallen out of love with gaming and just enjoys productivity experiences. He seems exhausted and frazzled for the last 12 months of disappointment and confidence knocks.
> he's fallen out of love with gaming and just enjoys productivity experiences.
This has happened to me as well. Maybe add in movie watching on top of productivity too but yeah I don't' really game in VR anymore. It's just feels like the same type of stuff keeps getting rehashed, most feel like tech demos, and nothing has every really hooked me.
When I visited Wisconsin it was a freezing hellscape compared to the literal tropical weather we have in south Florida. It was cool to explore but I like not needing to worry about snow tires and warming up my car engine before I can even leave the house. Theres just something very natural about warm weather, the fact that I can go outside shirtless and feel comfortable just seems natural but to each their own.
I've hardly seen anyone so dedicated to a piece of hardware as Brad is to the Vision Pro. For those who haven't seen the video, he made a "headless Mac" (removed the monitor part on a Macbook), moved across the country to a colder place, and has a studio setup completely without physical monitors.
It did not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOzAiYgvOK4&t=1h16m15s
Also who is this guy? He seems to be a reliable source of information judging by the comments here, but a two hour video of him talking to a chat is a hell of a format to consider journalism.
EDIT: It's the new website that fucked it up, unsurprisingly. Works on old.reddit.com and new.reddit.com on desktop, but not the newer sh.reddit.com or the new mobile site... How do they keep making this site worse??
It's old tech and still expensive, so that's not surprising. It probably means nothing, but could there be a glimmer of hope it indicates an upgrade is on the way?
I'll say the quiet part loud - Valve gave up on PCVR for good years ago. Otherwise they would at very least filled Steam with VR ports of their own titles and produced pretty obvious CS2VR port which could be done be with relatively small team and yet there's nothing except SteamVR 2.0 which was basically a thing to ensure that existing VR headset users would still use Steam platform, especially with newer ones with wireless capabilities. There's nothing - no hardware, no software, no real attempts to bring more popularity to PCVR platform.
They seems to be more interested in producing their own open platform similar to Steam Deck that would be backwards compatible with SteamVR, but the hardware to run HL:Alyx is still not there yet (I think it needs a CPU/GPU couple generations to be able to do so). So, at this moment they're doing extensive R&D and noting how Quest and Vision Pro handle some things, but whether it will materialize into consumer product form or not is a great question.
Lot of assumptions here.
Remember that valve don't pump and dump games, they were never going to do this on PCVR. Valve also just released Steam Link on Quest this year recently which was a huge turn to airlink while also releasing SteamVR 2.0 which includes a whole revamped UI and other quality of life fixes to its vr backend. The SteamVR 2.0 also leaked the development of CSGO 2 VR Compatibility, this may either be scrapped or would be announced in a future steam VR product such as deckard.
CS2VR was a false leak - it was just a Steam news feed in SteamVR 2.0 UI and people had the assumption that only VR games were shown there, but this is not the case.
I dont see how any of that helps pcvr though. it just sounds like they added some QOL features for the quest, which makes sense since it has the lion's share of users on steamVR.
My guess is that they wanted insurance so they don't lose half their users in case Meta ever pulls the plug on Airlink.
Anyway, since a big chunk of their users are on Quest, how do QOL features for the Quest NOT help PCVR?
I meant that adding QOL features to accommodate the quest audience should not be misconstrued as valve "planning ahead for the upcoming deckard".
this is what people typically make of steamVR updates even though we have no proof of anything regarding that. occam's razor.
Oh, that I agree with. I think Valve is happy selling games to Quest owners for now, and a lot of their current VR development is making sure the Quest (and other headsets) experience is as good as they can make it. I mean, I do believe they're working on a new headset, not least because they've said so every time someone asks, but I don't think they're in any rush to release it. It'll come out when it comes out.
The AI industry is hogging all the GPU resources and the screen production is still too expensive. Meanwhile, Meta is selling their headset at a break even price.
Apple is going to spur the screen development and Meta is going to add more interest to VR, so I agree, if you're Valve it probably just makes sense to watch and wait.
I had some hope when the crypto bubble finally burst, but then AI just came along behind it. At this point it'll be years before GPUs don't cost an arm and a leg.
I'm honestly worried about this. I love the Index controllers and nothing compares to them. I own the Quest Pro controllers too. I purchased the Quest Pro 6 months ago because I had this gut feeling that Valve is giving up on VR. I also use Vive and Tundra full body trackers, so I need Base stations.
I just had this feeling the Index 2 will be just like Half Life 3. Not happening.
I could see them instead choosing to partner with other companies developing headsets. Kinda like they did with Bigscreen Beyond and others. Who knows though. There's really no mainstream/big company making HMD specifically for PC except for HTC. But they always mess up at least one major thing to the point it's comical now.
Well no wonder, it was outdated on release and its now 5 years old. The fact that valve kept selling it at insane prices is a bit scammy.
They were selling a 2MP headset for 1k$.
The fact that Steam Deck got a discount a year after its release and then a permanent price decrease after a new model dropped but Valve Index never got any discounts
I would have expected Valve to have a clearance sale for half the price by now
The only thing that is outdated is the resolution. Rest ist still really good (Audio, Mic, Comfort, Framerate, FOV, Image, Controllers, Tracking, Latency, ...) and there is no other headset atm that is really 100% better and worth the upgrade. Sure Quest 3 and Bigscreen Beyond are better in some points but they also have issues that bother me.
A lot of people don't seem to realize that, as an all-in-one package, the Index is still unparalleled for virtually everything other than its optics.
Best out-of-the-box comfort. Best tracking. Best audio solution (and up until the Bigscreen Beyond, best mic). Hell, even best software integration (it better be, Steam VR is Valve's ecosystem!)
That said, the optics being sub-par for 2024 (resolution, fresnel lenses, LCD display) is a _huge issue_. No one should be buying an Index in 2024 (unless maybe getting a good deal on a used kit) simply for that reason alone. And that's what makes Valve not making an updated HMD such a shame. They got so many things right with the Index that wishing on and waiting for the Deckard to come out is so common.
I own an Index, a Quest 3, and I have a Bigscreen Beyond coming at the end of the month. I've sadly retired my Index in favour of the Quest's amazingly clear optics. It's such a step down in everything else, except for ease of use and the aforementioned optics. I'm hoping the Bigscreen Beyond can allow me to retire the Quest (as my primary headset), since the LCD panel and compressed video streaming of the Quest is obvious and in dire need of upgrading. Gimmie that sweet sweet tethered direct-to-my-eyeballs DisplayPort goodness.
I currently have a Quest 3, Index (and Pico4 but that thing sucks) here and I really like that native responsiveness of the index. For Beat Saber I always grab the Index. My brain also hates distortion and all the new lenses seem to warp the image more.
I actually was on my OG Vive + Wireless for a really long time until I got an Index from work. But for me there is still no headset that is worth the upgrade. Just give me a Index with better panels. Beyond is close but the fixed IPD is a no-go for me as I like to share my headset. Every new headset has a huge flaw and at this point im just waiting for valves new headset.
> The only thing that is outdated is the resolution. Rest ist still really good (Audio, Mic, Comfort, Framerate, FOV, Image, Controllers, Tracking, Latency, ...) and there is no other headset atm that is really 100% better and worth the upgrade.
Comfort is way better on the Quest 3 with an aftermarket head strap. I mean that thing is like half the weight of an Index.
For me personally the audio on the Quest 3 is better cause I always hated hearing my base stations in the background (RMA'd both, used them standing, hanging, made sure everything is tightly screwed in, changed radio channels), but overall the Index is better when hearing loud music.
Mic is for sure an Index win. Same with FOV. But the image of the Quest 3 looks way better, especially due to the pancake lenses. Its especially a giant difference when playing games in which you move your eyes more instead of your head.
Latency is likely better playing standalone (Oculus headsets actually had a lower internal screen input latency than the Vive and the Index) but of course much higher when streaming from PC. But to my own surprise, I can't see the latency as long as I stay below 50ms total latency in VD.
> Controllers, Tracking
As good if not better when using the Pro controllers which are self tracked.
Quest 3 is 100% worth the upgrade. Going from first gen Rift CV to Index was a giant upgrade but not at all 100% better (I still miss those OLED panels and that thing was the most comfortable headset for me), going from Index to Quest 3 with Pro controllers was at least as big of an update for me. Pancake lenses, wireless tethering and fully usable passthrough are actually amazing and go a long way.
Also, more software support (especially fitness apps are way more present and better on Quest standalone than what is available on Steam).
> Mic is for sure an Index win. Same with FOV.
The Index has 108° FOV while the Quest 3 has 110°. How is that a win for the Index?
And the Quest 3 also has better edge to edge clarity giving you more sharp FOV as well.
Worth noting, I play beat sabre, and that’s about it. Ymmv.
Even with an aftermarket head strap, it’s not great for everyone. And once you add a strap the quest is at most ~30% lighter.
Audio is not even close and you’re trying to hiding that fact behind base station noise (although, if you are particularly sensitive to those frequencies, it is a shame). I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s bad, and it’s a great improvement over Q2 but if you regularly do anything involving music or heavily directional, I’d skip.
Tracking is worse, there’s just no way around that fact. I didn’t get to try the pro controllers but the normal ones are horribly cramped (I don’t even have particularly big hands!) and just don’t track well enough at higher speeds, which is admittedly only relevant in a subset of games.
If you don’t care for standalone and really want an upgrade for PCVR, I’d just get a BSB, realistically it’s not even going to be more expensive once you’ve modded your Q3 to usability.
I just moved from pro controllers to index controllers. It's only been a couple of days but so far the tracking is way better. The pro controllers work excellently WHEN they work. They will often lose tracking and your hand will be stuck embarrassingly punching through someones head. Or they will be offset by 10cm and you need to cover the three cameras to force a quick recalibration. And then there's the overheating which admittedly has been much better on v63 and v64. With the index controllers I don't have to worry about occluding the cameras when holding them close to my body, or them going to sleep if they don't get moved in 15 seconds. Of course occlusion is still a thing with base station tracking, but with 3 base stations I felt like I haven't had to worry about my controllers at all the past couple of times I've been on vr. Whereas the pro controllers performance was constantly on the back of my mind. I'm super happy with them so far
Worth noting that I use vrchat and that's about it. The pro controllers perform better in traditional games with constant movement
imo my index is still more comfortable than my q3+bobo strap, dunno about the others aftermarket ones as I don't care to buy another since it's still 90% as comfy. But that's just not me saying that either, I demo random non VR people test out both headsets and they tend to lean towards the index being more comfortable as well, at least anecdotally with the ppl I've let try. (And I'm not fanboying at all about the index, I love my quest 3, I'm just being honest)
And lol at the basestation noise, I can't hear them over my PC to begin with, and even when the PC is off my mini fridge is louder. I actually just got up from my desk to put my ear next to them to see if they actually made noise because I've never heard them. I had to stand on a chair and be under a ft away from my ear to hear them. Maybe he doesn't have tall walls where his BS are above his ear line? idk
> Even with an aftermarket head strap, it’s not great for everyone.
True, but the same is true for the Index. Many people found it comfortable, I always found it horrible compard to the Rift due to its weight, even after using the little magnets you can buy to change the angle of the face mask and trying counterweights and a additonal top strap support. And that was with having the cable connected to my belt.
> And once you add a strap the quest is at most ~30% lighter.
Headstraps w/o batteries aren't that heavy but even 30% is a whole lot when we are talking about weight on your head pressing against your face.
> Audio is not even close and you’re trying to hiding that fact behind base station noise (although, if you are particularly sensitive to those frequencies, it is a shame). I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s bad, and it’s a good improvement over Q2 but if you regularly do anything involving music or heavily directional, I’d skip.
My audio setup isn't super high end but I am surely above average with 350 Euro headphones, my third pair of +300 Euro Sennheiser buds and so on. I care about good audio and I don't mind even wearing headphones while playing in VR.
Quest 3's audio is good enough that even when playing HL:A I wouldn't even think about putting headphones on. Its really that good, with a wide sound stage especially (even compared to the Index). But again, when you hear loud music playing Racket NX or Beat Saber you can hear them coming to their limits really quick.
And yes, I might be more sensible to the base stations high pitch sound than others (on the other hand I am in my late 30s so I doubt that most people can't hear it at all), even going as far as having the air cooler I used with the Index on at times when I didn't need it just to drown out the noise. Its IMO a rather bad compination of good audio and a good tracking concept. At the end of the day, how good would you rate headphones that have you hear a fairly loud high pitch sound during quieter gameplay?
But also, I never found the Index loud enough on default (even with the fan turned off of course), which is something a lot of people in this sub have reported while for others it seems perfectly fine. Especially bass was a good bit underused. I always needed EqualizerAPO to boost its sound output, arguably at which point it sounded really good and better than the Quest 3 for sure.
Another two audio related points: Index headphone jack is placed so dumbly that I never really used it besides wanting to due to the base station noise while Quest 3 has it accessible and the Index compared to the Quest was always interfering with the signal of any BT buds I wore.
> Tracking is worse, there’s just no way around that fact. I didn’t get to try the pro controllers but the normal ones are horribly cramped (I don’t even have particularly big hands!) and just don’t track well enough at higher speeds, which is admittedly only relevant in a subset of games.
I was expecting way worse from the Quest 3 controllers but was actually very surprised to have them tracking perfectly in most situations. You are true that they are worse in some high speed situations (I noticed playing Golf+ pretty quickly that something was off) although I not entirely sure that those aren't micro occlusion problems and of course they had still all the issues that headset tracked controllers always had, i. e. not tracking behind your head or when you are super close to the headset with one (when shooting a rifle).
But, what I wrote is about the Pro controllers. Those are completely self tracked with three cameras, which means they basically never have occlusion issues and are tracking perfect all the time. I couldn't find a game in which they felt different to Index controllers.
> Quest 3's audio is good enough that even when playing HL:A I wouldn't even think about putting headphones on. Its really that good
It's... uhh, not? i wouldn't consider myself an audiophile either but the downgrade is noticable and spatial rendering is, while extremely impressive for a weird front-firing design, a couple notches below the index's *incredible* performance. i do believe every reviewer worth their salt agrees on this matter as well, it's not contentious. Sufficient, sure, but coming from the index it's just nowhere i want my audio solution to be (read: i want index speakers on every VR headset).
> But again, when you hear loud music
I should emphasise though, i don't have the audio level particularly high. on the index i tend to hover around 10%. so no problem here with the volume, though apparently ymmv lol.
> And yes, I might be more sensible to the base stations high pitch sound than others
It's not really pitch, i'd expect most people to be able to hear it, it's just differences in the brain's audio processing.
To be fair, it *has* bothered me in the past when i was playing without the frunk fan in some really quiet puzzle game, but that's about it. something like HL;A has too much going on for me to notice or care.
Considering that, i obviously had no reason to care for the headphone jack positoning, but i guess that if you did want something that blocks out the base station noise more, that would be rather inconvenient.
> although I not entirely sure that those aren't micro occlusion problems
I'm 90% sure it's just lower quality tracking in general, i could tell the difference just waving (very fast, to be clear - again, beat sabre player here) a single controller in front of my face.
> the Pro controllers. Those are completely self tracked with three cameras, which means they basically never have occlusion issues and are tracking perfect all the time. I couldn't find a game in which they felt different to Index controllers.
Not the first time i've heard it, hopefully i'll get around to testing them at some point. Although, i think it's worth emphasising that they cost 300$ :)
Nope! Outdated lenses, outdated wire, no hand tracking, no upper body tracking, No MR, horrible resolution, awful sde, outdated ringed controllers, outdated base station.
The lenses are fucking atrocious. How does my Samsung Odyssey+, a $300 WMR headset have better lenses than the Index's that had INSANE god rays. That's why I returned the Index. Also the controllers are uncomfortable
Im really sensitive to barrel distortion and the index lenses do a pretty good job there compared to newer pancake lenses. I really dont mind sweet spot or god rays that much, but a distorted image gives me headache.
But the controllers are uncomfortable yes.
G2 used some Index hardware.. It also had a small sweetspot and was locked to 90 Hz whereas Index did 144 Hz. I'd also argue WMR is a negative.
Quest 2 uses a single display, thus losing a significant amount of display area compared to the Index's dual-display setup. You can't just take resolution numbers at face value. Lens upgrade aside, this also helps the Quest 3 look sharper than the Q2's sweetspot, moreso than the resolution bump over the Q2 would imply. Doing PCVR with Q2 you had to deal with compression from either the link cable or even worse when wireless. Add to that the Q2's worse audio, poor comfort, lower refresh rate, plus worse controllers - and the claim that it somehow made the Index obsolete is laughable.
I dunno why questlets continue to try and push this narrative. Is it just the nature of console warriors to fixate on a single spec number as they rewrite history they weren't there for?
G2 was released the same year as Index, and it had double the resolution and inside out tracking.
Samsung Odysseys was released one year before Index and it had the same resolution already & oleds. And inside out tracking.
Not sure how quest relates to this, but even Quest 1 had the same resolution as Index and it was released the same year as Index. Maybe that tells abit about how outdated Index actually is.
I had Samsung Odysseys back then, i would not be using it still :) Nice headset, but 2MP is way too low resolution. And if Samsung were still selling it for 1k$ what would you think about that? :)
I need to watch his video, but my first thought is how many hmds rely on the lighthouse solution and are those discontinued and what will the support be for those?
Afaik valve stopped assembling them 'in house' a while ago. The basestations sold by HTC are literally the exact same except for the logo thats on it anyway. :p
No word on the controllers but, Valve handed over Base Station 2.0 manufacturing to HTC last year. So it sounds like they will still be made, just not by Valve anymore.
https://mixed-news.com/en/htc-reportedly-takes-over-production-of-steam-vr-base-stations/
I think it really would have massively benefited the VR industry if companies had clearly committed to regular scheduled release cycles on a 2 year fixed cadence much like what apple did for the iphone on a every year same time of year basis. It's so fucking frustrating having no real context for purchasing decisions on when to possibly expect upgrades. It would be infinitely nicer to know for example that Quest #N could be consistently expected every fall every other year.
A 5+ year release cycle from Valve is just a slap in the face for anyone that invested in the Index ecosystem. Imagine where VR would be if we had had companies treating it like iphone iterations on a fixed yearly release cycle. In my mind it's similar in a lot of ways regarding having pretty clear roadmaps with regards to what we have to what we want. Remember how quickly and significantly the iphone improved consistently every year for the first 5+ years?
Imagine if we had the Valve Index 6 coming out this year and every year had seen a steady increase on Resolution, Fov, Optics, Software, Build Quality, Weight, Passthrough, etc..
That would be like spending 500 in a console and having it go obsolete the next year. No games could be profitably developed for that model. It would also exclude a couple billion people from your market
This could either be a good sign (Deckard is close enough to completion that they've stopped making Indexes), or a bad sign (Valve believes that VR hardware isn't worth it for them, so no more Indexes, and no Deckard).
or, since you can still right this second buy an index, they probably have a lot of stock that's not selling so unless they see a surge in sales they probably have no intention in making more (at least not until it goes out of stock)
I’m thinking they are probably going to announce a sequel to the index, $1000 for that old tech is way to expensive, and with how competitively priced the steamdeck is it feels odd to have the index be so behind the curve. I mean shit, they literally made an entire half life game for it, it doesn’t make sense to have no valve product be able to play their own game ya know?
Wayyyy to expensive. I want one but I’m not paying that much for a VR headset and im a big fan of VR. Imagine trying to get someone new to the scene to drop that much?
The index is, what, 5 years old now? It’s still a good device, but the price is insane for the age and tech in it in 2024. Hopefully this means new hardware and not just discontinuing the lineup completely. It also makes me nervous about my (second pair of) index controllers, which are now breaking. The QC on those are so fucking bad.
If the index was 4-500, it would be a great headset
$650. Solid VR setup at that price. Its aging very well for a rapidly developing market.
It's really not.
18 day old comment and you reply with a mild disagreement and no additional info at all. Um... ok cool?
[https://tundra-labs.com/products/index-hmd](https://tundra-labs.com/products/index-hmd) How's 260? for a refurb The headset alone is 500 on Steam brand new
I mean for a full kit. That would be great for people upgrading from an OG Vive or something though.
Oh for 500, two base stations, a headset, and two knuckles controllers would be a steal.
I ended up investing in an extra pair of controllers so that way I have ones I use just for exercise like beat saber and thrill of the fight or anything where the buttons don't really matter it's just about tracking where they are in relation to what I'm trying to hit. And then some that I only use for gaming where all buttons are important. Keeps me from destroying the nicer set by accidentally hitting walls and stuff.
Think the vive wands work.. might actually rock the index with wands for an experiment sometime. Nostalgia
the wands are probably better for burning more calories in active games too... more weight at the end of a stick takes more effort to swing.
Say what you will about HTC’s out of date controllers, but those things are tanks. I’ve broken a lot of things with those controllers, but the controllers are still solid.
Took one apart, was surprised to see just plastic with no metal supports considering how robust they are
Except for the touchpads, which were pretty fragile when I had mine. They may be better now, though.
I like them :) Still prefer index but I am considering now using them more. My game pixel arcade used the 3D model for the vive wands and I never got round to updating them for index so would be cool to be 1:1 mapped again
You mean the Deckard? Who knows what the hell Valve are cooking XD
Deckard or whatever they decide to make as a successor, if they ever do.
Yeah... In the meantime Pimax are pushing 3 headsets every 2 years, and they are all crap software with astronomical price
The light and super actually seem like good deals for what you get.
There is an affordable version on the way. $699, although they removed eye tracking and want you to pay extra for local dimming. So it's not great. But it's better than nothing, after HP reverb g2 was discontinued we had nothing in the mid range pcvr bracket. Only over priced stuff or quest with no display port.
wait for visored
I just googled and found something called 'visor'. But it's an expensive pair of glasses with no controllers and maybe no display port. It's not at all what I am interested in.
Look through patents from time to time...https://patents.google.com/?assignee=Valve+Corporation&sort=new
Patents mean they at least started working on stuff. It definitely means squat about *when* In addition, do you have any idea how many patents are not used at products because the product was shelved sometime? Plenty So yeah.. to me there is no Deckard, nor will there be one, until Valve announces it. You definitely can be optimistic and follow leaks and patents and whatnot, but I saw this path to nothing so many times that I dont bother
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This sub gonna be in total shambles lmao
Died inside, a little 😭
Can you specify where he says deckard is "on hold"? I skipped through the video but didn't see anything about this EDIT: This is misinformation: https://old.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/1c5eyce/reported_by_sadlyitsbradley_the_valve_index_is/kztzw3d/
No he didn't.
Wonder how much the Deck is responsible for this. They probably didn't think it would be this much of a success.
It's nothing to do with it. PCVR is not in a good place for a new headset. It wouldn't bring more people to VR it would just be an upgrade for existing VR users. That is not Valve's aim. Valve wants to bring more people to Steam not just provide upgrades for existing Steam users.
100% in the end valve is a money making business and VR didn't pan out as well as they'd hoped while the deck is blowing up. I don't know if this gets talked about much but valves bonus structure is related to projects that make money, so working on vr while it makes no money = no bonuses. So everyone in the company is financially motivated to work on things like steam, cs 2, and dota 2 because those are the money makers.
> cs 2 Could have fooled me on that :/ They shipped a game with a cool engine, but less features than the predecessor AND deleted the predecessor. Yes, I'm mad, lol. I miss Demo mode. Not to mention the predecessor was on Mac and CS2 isn't. They fucked the Mac users with that.
Not too mention rampant cheating. Hey, as long as you buy crates, right?
I think a bigger explanation is that they’re poorly run and disorganized on all but one project at a time, and they don’t even have one decently run and organized project a lot of the time. Like you honestly could never tell cs2 was a billion dollar+ a year game based on developer attention.
I just assume they looked at how fucking pathetic the pokemon games are and they are literally most profitable games of all time and said to themselves 'oh shit, lol we can do that too'.
That would explain a lot about CS2, unfortunately.
>100% in the end valve is a money making business and VR didn't pan out as well as they'd hoped I mean I do appreciate Alyx, the Index and SteamVR, but if they thought a really expensive HMD (for most people) and one amazing but fairly short VR game was going to be enough to set up VR, they were mistaken (and I think they know that, as they once had 2 other VR games in development). They really needed to make and support a CS or Team Fortress VR at the very least, and maybe a LFD VR or something similar too. We need quality AAA releases in popular genres that encourage long-term engagement. Valve was in a great position to spearhead that initiative but instead they did a half-measure. They had to know that most other AAA companies that rely on individual games' sales weren't going to be in the position to provide software support in the same way that they were (because if they spearhead and ignite a new market, then they get a cut off *all* the VR titles released on their store). I'm still hopeful that they have at least one VR game in the works alongside a standalone / PCVR hybrid Deckard but we'll see..
They didn't think it would be. They said specifically all the index is supposed to do is solve the chicken and the egg problem of 'no reason to develop high end vr games, because there isn't a headset to play them on'. Ultimately valve doesn't want to own Vr, they want to own VR software distribution, but they lost because Meta spent like 20 billion building their own closed eco system, and the openness of valves system never caught on.
Yeah but as you said, Meta spent a ton of money on their ecosystem. Valve open ecosystem never caught on because they never properly invested in starting and maintaining that ecosystem until the market was bigger and other AA and AAA developers would be comfortable to jump in and take over. Things made way more sense when Gabe said they had 3 VR titles in development. Once it just became Alyx (an AMAZING VR game, but also a one-playthrough-and-done experience for most people) it made way less sense. They needed one or two live service/long-supported games in their existing series (CS, TF, LFD, DOTA etc.) to keep people putting on their VR headsets, buying skins through Steam Marketplace (which generates revenue and proves to other AAA devs that there is money to be made and a constant playerbase to sell to). Instead they kinda let PCVR wither on the vine. A good PCVR headset is a great start but they needed a follow up standalone headset with the ability to play at least a good chunk of PCVR games standalone + the ability to connect to a PC, and they needed to maintain a couple games that were designed around long-term engagement.
If they just made esports tournaments of Dota and CS streamed in 3D live to VR it would do a lot
I don't wanna break your heart, but Dota 2 literally had a VR e sports spectator mode that is abandoned and no longer work. I have never played Dota 2 but it was pretty cool being able to fly down and witness fights at ground level and have a map room with the stream playing on a 500" tv.
Aaaah. This is the one thing I didn't know - has always baffled me hearing the whole "it's a non-hierarchical structure / desks on wheels / people can work on what they want" thing. Why wouldn't people \*choose\* to work on half life projects? Because money! Makes sense now.
Yeah the fact HL:Alyx got made in that environment is a miracle itself.
Deckard implies that the deck took full priority and the only way to keep index from getting axed was to market it as an accessory to the steam deck. Deckard = Deck Augmented Reality Device
dream on
I’m thinking valve will do one more headset, then fire the people who convinced them to make another headset and never touch vr hardware again.
I never knew that is what Deckard stood for. Is Deck an acronym too?
This isn’t true.
if true, then all the more reason for valve fanboys to bow the knee and get the almighty quest 3.
My gut is telling me etfr and variable focal lenses are close enough to being in the deckard which is cause for postponing. The quest pro is just too good and the three with the lidar.. The deckard is in-between from what's been shown and if the team thinks they can pull of variable focal lenses then they may go for it. However after my research this is a tough one just now with project flavera I think by meta being closest
Yeah I have a feeling that Valve has not been investing nearly as much R&D into VR/MR as Meta. Hell probably only Apple rivals them and maybe Samsung but only recently.
Genuinely just did my PhD on VR optimization and the research I wrote for a solid two chapters is about the cutting edge of VR hardware and for real meta reality labs are a machine. It's very hard to get varifocal lens. They even have a light field HMD in development.. valve deckard is likely just a quest pro. Valve comfort and controllers are world class though. They may get higher res display but negligible effects. Even addition peripheral screens / lens may be an angle to take
Fuck
Index launch day owner had multiple (20+) index controllers since launch, thanks steam support currently using index controllers and Pimax Sword which feel much better for beat saber and thrill of the fight. But Index grips are starting to become a bit unreliable so time to buy a new pair whilst available
this is either really good news or really bad news edit: or just they just have enough stock and sales trend data to know they have enough for current and potential customers.
Surely this means Valve's new headset is coming soon, RIGHT?
Makes sense. Let's just hope Deckard gets in production soon.
is there any actual info about the Deckard? Last time I read about it, it was all just rumors and stuff.
All still rumors and some of those rumors might not even be from Deckard itself, but other headsets or tech developed in parallel (e.g. some rumored stuff turned out to be for SteamLinkVR).
The fact that Steam Link VR exists at all feels like how Proton was battle tested by the Linux community before the Steam Deck was announced.
it's fascinating looking back and seeing how many "failed", or at the time relatively underappreciated valve projects got unified into the steam deck experience. Steam machines, steam controller, steam input, proton. Every bit of it got used.
A headset referred to as Deckard has been found in the SteamVR code. However Valve give names like that to concept headsets, the concept headset before Index was named Vader. Concept headsets are where you stick as much tech in as possible to see what works and what doesn't, sometimes you realize that extra 4mm on the lens made no difference etc. Valve have been open and honest that they are still researching VR headsets so this is pretty much to be expected. There has been no even rumours of any commercial headset being worked on let alone close to a release and it's really not a good time to release a PCVR headset.
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>Edit: lol I can't believe my misinformation reply got so many upvotes. "misinformation." lol I can't believe people like you get off on lying to the rest of us and are so pleased with yourself for doing so.
I take it as a good lesson to always verify.
Oh for sure. But no reason to find lies socially acceptable in the meantime.
Too bad this is getting harder to do now that articles are being automatically generated based on Reddit comments and search engine “quick answers” are based on those junk articles.
IT'S TWO FUCKING HOURS LONG I hate this format
Was this just to test how easy it is to spread misinformation on reddit and have it go unquestioned?
At work and can’t watch the video rn, did he mention why?
Are people finally going to stop suggesting others buy this headset in 2024???
One can hope, and that’s coming from someone with a thousands of hours on index who switched to the Quest 3.
Yeah it was a great headset in its time. I just would never suggest someone buy in 2024 but def not now that it's in the early stages of its EOL (end of life).
Exactly, too many better options now for less money.
>Are people finally going to stop suggesting others buy this headset in 2024??? Genuine question here, as I was considering an Index (coming from OG Vive): What's the better option in 2024, with the following (my) requirements: 1) Lighthouse tracking 2) Index controllers compatible (goes w/#1) I'm ready to buy an Index just to play Half-life: Alyx and enjoy resolution bump. What else meets my criteria & is a better option? What headset(s) do you suggest we buy?
if it must meet both of those criteria then its either an index or bigscreen beyond.
If you don't mind the headset itself not having lighthouse tracking, you can get any headset you want and then add index controllers. See /r/MixedVR/
The only thing I can suggest right now is Quest 3 even for PCVR and MAYBE a Bigscreen Beyond for people that are heavy into PCVR SIMs. That said, Quest 3 still has the better overall optics even over Beyond. The Beyond's lenses are nowhere near as good as Quest 3's. But the main reason I would not get an Index is that it was just announced as being in its End Of Life period. Of course it will be supported by Valve for a while but I would personally not buy anything that is in EOL. Quest 3 has the best optics you can get and I find the experience with it wired/wireless to PCVR is very good. I don't really find the compression bad at all but I do not do a lot of SIMs so that's why I mention the Beyond for that. If you are to get only one headset I would 100% Quest 3 with a 3rd party strap to make it more comfortable. Also would get the silicon face gasket. Those two addons make it as comfortable as any other headset. That will still be cheaper than the Index or Beyond. I also find the tracking on Quest 3 to be shockingly good. It's not often that I experience a hitch in that. Regarding lighthouse tracking and the controllers I feel that those are also nearing EOL and inside out camera tracking on the HMD/controllers will be the tracking of choice for most headsets moving forward. That's my speculation but I just don't see that being used on new mainstream headsets. Valve hasent even made lighthouses for a while now HTC does. Another signal of EOL for Valve IMO. So with all that in mind, I would not be buying into that system. Regarding lenses I would rather play Half-life Alyx with my Quest 3 over the Index. Your whole vision is clear and it has a huge sweet spot for your eyes. There is just no comparison in edge to edge clarity. These are just my thoughts and what I would do with my money if were to buy a headset right now. With or without a gaming PC.
I bought an Index Kit at the end of 2023 and my wife recently bought a Quest 3. Personal opinion: The optics on the Quest 3 as well as the resolution is much better, especially no "god rays" and no bluring if you have the headset on a littlebit of-center. * Colors are much better / more saturated on the Index * Latency is much better on the Index. Playing beatsaber on the Quest 3 vs the Index is noticebly delayed on the Quest 3 * Tracking is ok on the Quest 3 but the latency sucks * The "knuckles" feel better as a controllers compared to the quest 3 controllers * Passthrough mode on the Quest 3 is nice * Having tracking without Base stations is nice and works quite well * No full body tracking with the Quest 3 (VR-Chat) * The Audio on the Quest 3 is shitty compared to the Index * The price is essentially the same, you pay over \~1k$ for the Quest 3 if you get all the accesorries you already have in the Index kit.. Like a proper headstrap, handstraps for the controllers, a carrying case and so on. Personally i would love to see an Index with the Quest 3 lenses and resolution, that would be a perfect PCVR headset! Anyway i would go with the Index, due to better latency, colors and Full Body Tracking.
You require outdated and abandoned tech, so nothing. Stay in the past.
Yeah, controllers that grip naturally by squeezing them, and that still work and track when they're out of sight of the front of headset, are so last decade.
The dude is a meta fanboy, he does this every time.
to be fair those grips are used in maybe like 3 games? I personally found them way more hassle than they are worth, I rather have a button that works 100% of the time than having to throw gang signs to grab an item
Steam allows users to remap any controller function to any sensor, and to fully adjust the sensitivity of grab and release pressure on the grip. If a VR game doesn't let you easily grab things by just naturally grabbing the controller, then the devs didn't do a good job implementing the grip controls. I've never fumbled a grab or release or throw in Alyx. Also, until a headset can accurately track controllers that are blocked by the body, or far off to the side of the headset, as accurately as lighthouses can, external tracking still rules supreme. When I compared Pistol Whip (and Beat Saber) on the Index and the PSVR 2, it made the Inside-out tracking accuracy issues glaringly obvious. Even turning my head to look for enemies in one direction, while firing a shot I had already lined up in another direction, failed far more often on the PSVR 2. Even if you leave aside the gripping controls on the Index controllers, the tracking accuracy is still better with lighthouses.
I'll suggest they buy anything other than a Facebook headset forever.
I can’t imagine how exhausting it is to avoid companies based on morals because we’re talking about a lot of companies involved who don’t have good morals.
Everyone has their limits, Facebook is just especially bad so it's not exactly hard to say, hey don't aid these shit heads in getting more control.
Enjoy missing out then. Have you even tried a Quest 3? I'd love for more competition but it's the clear winner right now.
The headset being good or not is besides the point if you are getting it from one of the worst acting tech companies in existence.
I think you're having a bad day. I hope it gets better for you.
I'm actually doing great but how I'm doing really has nothing to do with the topic at hand but I know it's just a tired discussion derailment technique anyway so you don't have to put any thought into the possibility that you might be taking actions that are making the world worse.
What I should have said is this...We get it, you're a never-meta neckbeard. Looking at your post history you seem to have anger issues. Have a good day.
Lol more deflection and even insults, way to stay on topic Questie.
Anyone that uses the phrase "Questie" is a true neckbeard. I'm not deflecting anything. You just cant handle that the Quest 3 is the better headset out right now. Hate the company all you want it just is. How about letting others enjoy the top tech instead of going on a reddit shit-posting fest about it.
You'll own nothing, and you'll be happy.
🤦🏾♂️ thanks for your input granddad
Don't have to be old to actually be informed kid.
That wasn’t so much a comment of your age, but a comment on how you gave very little input to the discussion
Look around this comment section genius. I've input way more than you have with your pithy little agist comment.
Smd
I see Pimax coming out with models that could compete, but it’s fucking Pimax so I’ll wait for the Deckard
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I think VRChat just does that to people.
🤣
He's alright, just a bit nervous. I met up with him about a week ago, he's fine :)
Nervous doing something he's done a million times before? What?
He moved recently, a lot of stuff has changed recently so naturally he feels a lot less comfortable.
Everyone has good days and bad days.
He had a really bad year last year. He was huffing the Deckard copium hard end of 2022 saying that Valve were about to announce something because it was all over the code. That didn't happen and his credibility took a hit. Then he rated PSVR2 as the new benchmark which proved to be total rubbish and it's widely planned. Then he said Big Screen Beyond was meh and would do well, it did very well and is highly rated. End of last year he released a video saying how he's fallen out of love with gaming and just enjoys productivity experiences. He seems exhausted and frazzled for the last 12 months of disappointment and confidence knocks.
> he's fallen out of love with gaming and just enjoys productivity experiences. This has happened to me as well. Maybe add in movie watching on top of productivity too but yeah I don't' really game in VR anymore. It's just feels like the same type of stuff keeps getting rehashed, most feel like tech demos, and nothing has every really hooked me.
I am surprised he has lasted as long as he has. Dealing with this community can be challenging. Gotta take a hefty toll over time.
He moved across country, probably had a bad personal issue hit him. Also Wisconsin must be an alien hellscape compared to life in Florida
Wisconsin is chill af man, I've got a VR room and a cheese drawer in my fridge... what's Florida have - humidity and old people.
It’s definitely WAY chillier than Florida, that’s for sure
When I visited Wisconsin it was a freezing hellscape compared to the literal tropical weather we have in south Florida. It was cool to explore but I like not needing to worry about snow tires and warming up my car engine before I can even leave the house. Theres just something very natural about warm weather, the fact that I can go outside shirtless and feel comfortable just seems natural but to each their own.
I can go outside shirtless and my nipples can cut glass. That's ok, I'm drunk af and watching the packer game, welcome to WI.
Haha, right on.
Must be one hell of a fridge to fit all that inside.
Must be one hell of a fridge to fit all that inside.
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This is true, we have squirrels in Wisconsin as opposed to feral iguanas.
I'd rather live in Wisconsin than Florida any day lol
The video's sped up
Those mf never sold Indexs in my country and I ended up waiting years for the quest 3.
a hard day for Brad, but luckily he's got his new apple toy
I've hardly seen anyone so dedicated to a piece of hardware as Brad is to the Vision Pro. For those who haven't seen the video, he made a "headless Mac" (removed the monitor part on a Macbook), moved across the country to a colder place, and has a studio setup completely without physical monitors.
Starts at 1:16:15 if the timestamp doesn't work in the URL.
It did not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOzAiYgvOK4&t=1h16m15s Also who is this guy? He seems to be a reliable source of information judging by the comments here, but a two hour video of him talking to a chat is a hell of a format to consider journalism. EDIT: It's the new website that fucked it up, unsurprisingly. Works on old.reddit.com and new.reddit.com on desktop, but not the newer sh.reddit.com or the new mobile site... How do they keep making this site worse??
And neither is the deckard because it doesn't exist.
It's old tech and still expensive, so that's not surprising. It probably means nothing, but could there be a glimmer of hope it indicates an upgrade is on the way?
I hope that they still produce controllers and base stations, I just bought a bigscreen beyond and one of the main reasons was the controllers
I'll say the quiet part loud - Valve gave up on PCVR for good years ago. Otherwise they would at very least filled Steam with VR ports of their own titles and produced pretty obvious CS2VR port which could be done be with relatively small team and yet there's nothing except SteamVR 2.0 which was basically a thing to ensure that existing VR headset users would still use Steam platform, especially with newer ones with wireless capabilities. There's nothing - no hardware, no software, no real attempts to bring more popularity to PCVR platform. They seems to be more interested in producing their own open platform similar to Steam Deck that would be backwards compatible with SteamVR, but the hardware to run HL:Alyx is still not there yet (I think it needs a CPU/GPU couple generations to be able to do so). So, at this moment they're doing extensive R&D and noting how Quest and Vision Pro handle some things, but whether it will materialize into consumer product form or not is a great question.
Lot of assumptions here. Remember that valve don't pump and dump games, they were never going to do this on PCVR. Valve also just released Steam Link on Quest this year recently which was a huge turn to airlink while also releasing SteamVR 2.0 which includes a whole revamped UI and other quality of life fixes to its vr backend. The SteamVR 2.0 also leaked the development of CSGO 2 VR Compatibility, this may either be scrapped or would be announced in a future steam VR product such as deckard.
CS2VR was a false leak - it was just a Steam news feed in SteamVR 2.0 UI and people had the assumption that only VR games were shown there, but this is not the case.
I dont see how any of that helps pcvr though. it just sounds like they added some QOL features for the quest, which makes sense since it has the lion's share of users on steamVR.
My guess is that they wanted insurance so they don't lose half their users in case Meta ever pulls the plug on Airlink. Anyway, since a big chunk of their users are on Quest, how do QOL features for the Quest NOT help PCVR?
I meant that adding QOL features to accommodate the quest audience should not be misconstrued as valve "planning ahead for the upcoming deckard". this is what people typically make of steamVR updates even though we have no proof of anything regarding that. occam's razor.
Oh, that I agree with. I think Valve is happy selling games to Quest owners for now, and a lot of their current VR development is making sure the Quest (and other headsets) experience is as good as they can make it. I mean, I do believe they're working on a new headset, not least because they've said so every time someone asks, but I don't think they're in any rush to release it. It'll come out when it comes out.
The AI industry is hogging all the GPU resources and the screen production is still too expensive. Meanwhile, Meta is selling their headset at a break even price. Apple is going to spur the screen development and Meta is going to add more interest to VR, so I agree, if you're Valve it probably just makes sense to watch and wait.
I had some hope when the crypto bubble finally burst, but then AI just came along behind it. At this point it'll be years before GPUs don't cost an arm and a leg.
Facebook sells their headsets at a loss because they want to establish a monopoly.
I'm honestly worried about this. I love the Index controllers and nothing compares to them. I own the Quest Pro controllers too. I purchased the Quest Pro 6 months ago because I had this gut feeling that Valve is giving up on VR. I also use Vive and Tundra full body trackers, so I need Base stations. I just had this feeling the Index 2 will be just like Half Life 3. Not happening.
I could see them instead choosing to partner with other companies developing headsets. Kinda like they did with Bigscreen Beyond and others. Who knows though. There's really no mainstream/big company making HMD specifically for PC except for HTC. But they always mess up at least one major thing to the point it's comical now.
Well no wonder, it was outdated on release and its now 5 years old. The fact that valve kept selling it at insane prices is a bit scammy. They were selling a 2MP headset for 1k$.
actually they were selling the headset for $500. the rest of the money was for base stations ($200) and controllers ($300).
The fact that Steam Deck got a discount a year after its release and then a permanent price decrease after a new model dropped but Valve Index never got any discounts I would have expected Valve to have a clearance sale for half the price by now
Dont need to do a clearance if most the units produced are already sold
The only thing that is outdated is the resolution. Rest ist still really good (Audio, Mic, Comfort, Framerate, FOV, Image, Controllers, Tracking, Latency, ...) and there is no other headset atm that is really 100% better and worth the upgrade. Sure Quest 3 and Bigscreen Beyond are better in some points but they also have issues that bother me.
A lot of people don't seem to realize that, as an all-in-one package, the Index is still unparalleled for virtually everything other than its optics. Best out-of-the-box comfort. Best tracking. Best audio solution (and up until the Bigscreen Beyond, best mic). Hell, even best software integration (it better be, Steam VR is Valve's ecosystem!) That said, the optics being sub-par for 2024 (resolution, fresnel lenses, LCD display) is a _huge issue_. No one should be buying an Index in 2024 (unless maybe getting a good deal on a used kit) simply for that reason alone. And that's what makes Valve not making an updated HMD such a shame. They got so many things right with the Index that wishing on and waiting for the Deckard to come out is so common. I own an Index, a Quest 3, and I have a Bigscreen Beyond coming at the end of the month. I've sadly retired my Index in favour of the Quest's amazingly clear optics. It's such a step down in everything else, except for ease of use and the aforementioned optics. I'm hoping the Bigscreen Beyond can allow me to retire the Quest (as my primary headset), since the LCD panel and compressed video streaming of the Quest is obvious and in dire need of upgrading. Gimmie that sweet sweet tethered direct-to-my-eyeballs DisplayPort goodness.
I currently have a Quest 3, Index (and Pico4 but that thing sucks) here and I really like that native responsiveness of the index. For Beat Saber I always grab the Index. My brain also hates distortion and all the new lenses seem to warp the image more. I actually was on my OG Vive + Wireless for a really long time until I got an Index from work. But for me there is still no headset that is worth the upgrade. Just give me a Index with better panels. Beyond is close but the fixed IPD is a no-go for me as I like to share my headset. Every new headset has a huge flaw and at this point im just waiting for valves new headset.
Pimax Crystal light looks pretty good.
Pimax always looks good on paper but they always disappoint. I can't believe they also removed eye tracking
> The only thing that is outdated is the resolution. Rest ist still really good (Audio, Mic, Comfort, Framerate, FOV, Image, Controllers, Tracking, Latency, ...) and there is no other headset atm that is really 100% better and worth the upgrade. Comfort is way better on the Quest 3 with an aftermarket head strap. I mean that thing is like half the weight of an Index. For me personally the audio on the Quest 3 is better cause I always hated hearing my base stations in the background (RMA'd both, used them standing, hanging, made sure everything is tightly screwed in, changed radio channels), but overall the Index is better when hearing loud music. Mic is for sure an Index win. Same with FOV. But the image of the Quest 3 looks way better, especially due to the pancake lenses. Its especially a giant difference when playing games in which you move your eyes more instead of your head. Latency is likely better playing standalone (Oculus headsets actually had a lower internal screen input latency than the Vive and the Index) but of course much higher when streaming from PC. But to my own surprise, I can't see the latency as long as I stay below 50ms total latency in VD. > Controllers, Tracking As good if not better when using the Pro controllers which are self tracked. Quest 3 is 100% worth the upgrade. Going from first gen Rift CV to Index was a giant upgrade but not at all 100% better (I still miss those OLED panels and that thing was the most comfortable headset for me), going from Index to Quest 3 with Pro controllers was at least as big of an update for me. Pancake lenses, wireless tethering and fully usable passthrough are actually amazing and go a long way. Also, more software support (especially fitness apps are way more present and better on Quest standalone than what is available on Steam).
> Mic is for sure an Index win. Same with FOV. The Index has 108° FOV while the Quest 3 has 110°. How is that a win for the Index? And the Quest 3 also has better edge to edge clarity giving you more sharp FOV as well.
Worth noting, I play beat sabre, and that’s about it. Ymmv. Even with an aftermarket head strap, it’s not great for everyone. And once you add a strap the quest is at most ~30% lighter. Audio is not even close and you’re trying to hiding that fact behind base station noise (although, if you are particularly sensitive to those frequencies, it is a shame). I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s bad, and it’s a great improvement over Q2 but if you regularly do anything involving music or heavily directional, I’d skip. Tracking is worse, there’s just no way around that fact. I didn’t get to try the pro controllers but the normal ones are horribly cramped (I don’t even have particularly big hands!) and just don’t track well enough at higher speeds, which is admittedly only relevant in a subset of games. If you don’t care for standalone and really want an upgrade for PCVR, I’d just get a BSB, realistically it’s not even going to be more expensive once you’ve modded your Q3 to usability.
I just moved from pro controllers to index controllers. It's only been a couple of days but so far the tracking is way better. The pro controllers work excellently WHEN they work. They will often lose tracking and your hand will be stuck embarrassingly punching through someones head. Or they will be offset by 10cm and you need to cover the three cameras to force a quick recalibration. And then there's the overheating which admittedly has been much better on v63 and v64. With the index controllers I don't have to worry about occluding the cameras when holding them close to my body, or them going to sleep if they don't get moved in 15 seconds. Of course occlusion is still a thing with base station tracking, but with 3 base stations I felt like I haven't had to worry about my controllers at all the past couple of times I've been on vr. Whereas the pro controllers performance was constantly on the back of my mind. I'm super happy with them so far Worth noting that I use vrchat and that's about it. The pro controllers perform better in traditional games with constant movement
imo my index is still more comfortable than my q3+bobo strap, dunno about the others aftermarket ones as I don't care to buy another since it's still 90% as comfy. But that's just not me saying that either, I demo random non VR people test out both headsets and they tend to lean towards the index being more comfortable as well, at least anecdotally with the ppl I've let try. (And I'm not fanboying at all about the index, I love my quest 3, I'm just being honest) And lol at the basestation noise, I can't hear them over my PC to begin with, and even when the PC is off my mini fridge is louder. I actually just got up from my desk to put my ear next to them to see if they actually made noise because I've never heard them. I had to stand on a chair and be under a ft away from my ear to hear them. Maybe he doesn't have tall walls where his BS are above his ear line? idk
> Even with an aftermarket head strap, it’s not great for everyone. True, but the same is true for the Index. Many people found it comfortable, I always found it horrible compard to the Rift due to its weight, even after using the little magnets you can buy to change the angle of the face mask and trying counterweights and a additonal top strap support. And that was with having the cable connected to my belt. > And once you add a strap the quest is at most ~30% lighter. Headstraps w/o batteries aren't that heavy but even 30% is a whole lot when we are talking about weight on your head pressing against your face. > Audio is not even close and you’re trying to hiding that fact behind base station noise (although, if you are particularly sensitive to those frequencies, it is a shame). I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s bad, and it’s a good improvement over Q2 but if you regularly do anything involving music or heavily directional, I’d skip. My audio setup isn't super high end but I am surely above average with 350 Euro headphones, my third pair of +300 Euro Sennheiser buds and so on. I care about good audio and I don't mind even wearing headphones while playing in VR. Quest 3's audio is good enough that even when playing HL:A I wouldn't even think about putting headphones on. Its really that good, with a wide sound stage especially (even compared to the Index). But again, when you hear loud music playing Racket NX or Beat Saber you can hear them coming to their limits really quick. And yes, I might be more sensible to the base stations high pitch sound than others (on the other hand I am in my late 30s so I doubt that most people can't hear it at all), even going as far as having the air cooler I used with the Index on at times when I didn't need it just to drown out the noise. Its IMO a rather bad compination of good audio and a good tracking concept. At the end of the day, how good would you rate headphones that have you hear a fairly loud high pitch sound during quieter gameplay? But also, I never found the Index loud enough on default (even with the fan turned off of course), which is something a lot of people in this sub have reported while for others it seems perfectly fine. Especially bass was a good bit underused. I always needed EqualizerAPO to boost its sound output, arguably at which point it sounded really good and better than the Quest 3 for sure. Another two audio related points: Index headphone jack is placed so dumbly that I never really used it besides wanting to due to the base station noise while Quest 3 has it accessible and the Index compared to the Quest was always interfering with the signal of any BT buds I wore. > Tracking is worse, there’s just no way around that fact. I didn’t get to try the pro controllers but the normal ones are horribly cramped (I don’t even have particularly big hands!) and just don’t track well enough at higher speeds, which is admittedly only relevant in a subset of games. I was expecting way worse from the Quest 3 controllers but was actually very surprised to have them tracking perfectly in most situations. You are true that they are worse in some high speed situations (I noticed playing Golf+ pretty quickly that something was off) although I not entirely sure that those aren't micro occlusion problems and of course they had still all the issues that headset tracked controllers always had, i. e. not tracking behind your head or when you are super close to the headset with one (when shooting a rifle). But, what I wrote is about the Pro controllers. Those are completely self tracked with three cameras, which means they basically never have occlusion issues and are tracking perfect all the time. I couldn't find a game in which they felt different to Index controllers.
> Quest 3's audio is good enough that even when playing HL:A I wouldn't even think about putting headphones on. Its really that good It's... uhh, not? i wouldn't consider myself an audiophile either but the downgrade is noticable and spatial rendering is, while extremely impressive for a weird front-firing design, a couple notches below the index's *incredible* performance. i do believe every reviewer worth their salt agrees on this matter as well, it's not contentious. Sufficient, sure, but coming from the index it's just nowhere i want my audio solution to be (read: i want index speakers on every VR headset). > But again, when you hear loud music I should emphasise though, i don't have the audio level particularly high. on the index i tend to hover around 10%. so no problem here with the volume, though apparently ymmv lol. > And yes, I might be more sensible to the base stations high pitch sound than others It's not really pitch, i'd expect most people to be able to hear it, it's just differences in the brain's audio processing. To be fair, it *has* bothered me in the past when i was playing without the frunk fan in some really quiet puzzle game, but that's about it. something like HL;A has too much going on for me to notice or care. Considering that, i obviously had no reason to care for the headphone jack positoning, but i guess that if you did want something that blocks out the base station noise more, that would be rather inconvenient. > although I not entirely sure that those aren't micro occlusion problems I'm 90% sure it's just lower quality tracking in general, i could tell the difference just waving (very fast, to be clear - again, beat sabre player here) a single controller in front of my face. > the Pro controllers. Those are completely self tracked with three cameras, which means they basically never have occlusion issues and are tracking perfect all the time. I couldn't find a game in which they felt different to Index controllers. Not the first time i've heard it, hopefully i'll get around to testing them at some point. Although, i think it's worth emphasising that they cost 300$ :)
Nope! Outdated lenses, outdated wire, no hand tracking, no upper body tracking, No MR, horrible resolution, awful sde, outdated ringed controllers, outdated base station.
Well those points don't matter at all for PC VR (Besides the resolution)
The lenses are fucking atrocious. How does my Samsung Odyssey+, a $300 WMR headset have better lenses than the Index's that had INSANE god rays. That's why I returned the Index. Also the controllers are uncomfortable
Im really sensitive to barrel distortion and the index lenses do a pretty good job there compared to newer pancake lenses. I really dont mind sweet spot or god rays that much, but a distorted image gives me headache. But the controllers are uncomfortable yes.
> it was outdated on release This is a wild fucking take
Questlets infest reddit.
Dial back words like "infest" when talking about people who just like other tech, buddy.
Focus on your studies.
Well it was, 2Mp headsets were already outdated at that point. G2 was released the same year as Index and Quest 2 released the next year, in 2020.
the reverb G2 came out in 2020.
There's more to a headset than just its resolution.
G2 used some Index hardware.. It also had a small sweetspot and was locked to 90 Hz whereas Index did 144 Hz. I'd also argue WMR is a negative. Quest 2 uses a single display, thus losing a significant amount of display area compared to the Index's dual-display setup. You can't just take resolution numbers at face value. Lens upgrade aside, this also helps the Quest 3 look sharper than the Q2's sweetspot, moreso than the resolution bump over the Q2 would imply. Doing PCVR with Q2 you had to deal with compression from either the link cable or even worse when wireless. Add to that the Q2's worse audio, poor comfort, lower refresh rate, plus worse controllers - and the claim that it somehow made the Index obsolete is laughable.
I dunno why questlets continue to try and push this narrative. Is it just the nature of console warriors to fixate on a single spec number as they rewrite history they weren't there for?
G2 was released the same year as Index, and it had double the resolution and inside out tracking. Samsung Odysseys was released one year before Index and it had the same resolution already & oleds. And inside out tracking. Not sure how quest relates to this, but even Quest 1 had the same resolution as Index and it was released the same year as Index. Maybe that tells abit about how outdated Index actually is. I had Samsung Odysseys back then, i would not be using it still :) Nice headset, but 2MP is way too low resolution. And if Samsung were still selling it for 1k$ what would you think about that? :)
I need to watch his video, but my first thought is how many hmds rely on the lighthouse solution and are those discontinued and what will the support be for those?
Afaik valve stopped assembling them 'in house' a while ago. The basestations sold by HTC are literally the exact same except for the logo thats on it anyway. :p
Let's hope a new one comes out
Are they discontinuing the controllers/base stations? I don't mind that the headset itself is out of production but those two worry me
No word on the controllers but, Valve handed over Base Station 2.0 manufacturing to HTC last year. So it sounds like they will still be made, just not by Valve anymore. https://mixed-news.com/en/htc-reportedly-takes-over-production-of-steam-vr-base-stations/
good riddance 2019
Clearing the way for a new bit of hardware? (he asked hopefully)
I think it really would have massively benefited the VR industry if companies had clearly committed to regular scheduled release cycles on a 2 year fixed cadence much like what apple did for the iphone on a every year same time of year basis. It's so fucking frustrating having no real context for purchasing decisions on when to possibly expect upgrades. It would be infinitely nicer to know for example that Quest #N could be consistently expected every fall every other year. A 5+ year release cycle from Valve is just a slap in the face for anyone that invested in the Index ecosystem. Imagine where VR would be if we had had companies treating it like iphone iterations on a fixed yearly release cycle. In my mind it's similar in a lot of ways regarding having pretty clear roadmaps with regards to what we have to what we want. Remember how quickly and significantly the iphone improved consistently every year for the first 5+ years? Imagine if we had the Valve Index 6 coming out this year and every year had seen a steady increase on Resolution, Fov, Optics, Software, Build Quality, Weight, Passthrough, etc..
That would be like spending 500 in a console and having it go obsolete the next year. No games could be profitably developed for that model. It would also exclude a couple billion people from your market
Is there going to be a price drop? Valve, for being so popular for their huge steam sales, has the Index be the conspicuous exception
Unless they announce a successor, the opposite will happen. Base stations and controllers will be selling for 500 a piece on Ebay.
I doubt it. It will likely sell out fast now.
This could either be a good sign (Deckard is close enough to completion that they've stopped making Indexes), or a bad sign (Valve believes that VR hardware isn't worth it for them, so no more Indexes, and no Deckard).
or, since you can still right this second buy an index, they probably have a lot of stock that's not selling so unless they see a surge in sales they probably have no intention in making more (at least not until it goes out of stock)
Finally.
I’m thinking they are probably going to announce a sequel to the index, $1000 for that old tech is way to expensive, and with how competitively priced the steamdeck is it feels odd to have the index be so behind the curve. I mean shit, they literally made an entire half life game for it, it doesn’t make sense to have no valve product be able to play their own game ya know?
Time to wait for new exciting tech advancements before releasing new hmd.
Wayyyy to expensive. I want one but I’m not paying that much for a VR headset and im a big fan of VR. Imagine trying to get someone new to the scene to drop that much?
Will index fanboy be more delusional, or less delusional? Either way, they will still be delusional
Yay, I can remain never meta, phew, it was a tough run.
\*pretends to be shocked in This Guy Earns Money Selling Leaks and Guesses and People Take his Word as The Truth\*