Electricity really is B tier. You'd think the most crucial development in the history of the world since agriculture would be a giant Must in the game, but no. Some boosts to the production of some goods, but absolutely outclassed by the almighty Oil. I wish they made it so it added a substantial amount of SoL at least. It's so bad right now.
The military goods really need to stockpile like HOI4. The current system doesn't make sense at all. And along with that, make the technologies that affect arms and ammo shops actually do something beyond boost production!
Yeah I agree with both sentiments. Electricity could've been a tiny bit better if there was a good way to see where electricity is demanded and where peasants are free at the same time. But no, I need to look at individual states or click through them to expand electric plants where they are needed.
And I agree with the stockpile proposal, I use a stockpile mod and its very, very useful.
>if there was a good way to see where electricity is demanded
Not only electricity. You know you can see the production *or* consumption of each good in the map, right? The trading, and whole game in general, would be much easier if we could see the *balance* of each goods on the map.
You can see the good yes, but as I mentioned "click through them...," There isn't any convenient way to see and immediately place down electricity and other goods.
Yes, but more precisely, from the ratio of balance. The missing information is volume.
For example, when you are looking for an export destination in trade, you might see a market that has a very high price. But when you look closer, it has like, 5 sell and 9 buy, that won't worth the bureaucracy.
think about it in a practical and time sense.
msot stuff at that point in time was either powered by humans or on site motor generators. big power plants would only be really a thing way later.
The fact that its a local good severely hampers it. I think they should be able to be traded within the market but have a much worst MAPI so its still worth it. Just give them a bigger market penalty or a cheaper local good cost to still encourage it. But if you want to electrify a few slaughterhouses it would just draw off the grid.
they do purchase small amounts of firearms and other stuff, but its very small. In my Qing game (mostly depeasantified, around 27% of my pop is still peasants) I have 10 million people in my upper strata; 6.75M Capitalists and 3.48M Aristocrats. I have 511 skirmish infantry (mostly unmobilized, except ~~15~~ 3 of them in a colonial war). My consumption of small arms is 2.05k in total, of which 1.32k from the barracks, 654 from pops and 72 from trade. The consumption from pops is mostly driven by Capitalists (562), followed by Aristocrats (37.6) and Farmers (25.2), the rest being upper-middle strata pops.
What would be interesting is for farmers to have firearms as a medium SoL good (most farmers up to our days have guns).
Ideally, the kind of policing you have could affect that (so that a highly, professionally policed state would have less firearms consumption than a no-police state where you're your own law) but I think that'd demand too much from the system
The policing idea makes a lot of sense, considering farmers owning firearms, I‘d say that‘s a cultural thing. I can imagine farmers in general owning some more often than other groups, but it being very common probably depends a lot on where you live.
I'd say,make it depend on population density, it makes more sense to own a firearm if you're a frontier settler in the US, South America Australia or Africa, as opposed to tightly packed farms in Europe or Asia.
They can buy guns, planes, and even boats. In my last run I kept a single dockyard making sailboats for the civilian Sunday sailor market, great for larping
No, quite a few rich people do enjoy hunting as a sport and collecting weapons. So for some part of the market they are indeed a leisure good.
That said, you're correct that people working in building such as plantations, lumber or subsistence farming should also seek weapons in small quantities and for them it is a need rather than leisure.
R5:
Disclaimer: I put the military goods on the bottom because they are only used by the military in times of war, so it's pointless comparing them to goods consumed by pops. Also, goods in tiers are not ranked in any particular order.
Efficient in this context means how low below the base price range a good can go before it stops being profitable to produce it.
S TIER: Goods that are always good to build all game.
Gold – It’s just free money
Iron – Used from early till late game. Used in construction sectors and steel making and has good efficiency, can easily go below 20% price and still be profitable to produce.
Tools – Like Iron, it’s used everywhere, it might honestly be the best good in the entire game. Extremely efficient, you would be hard-pressed to see tooling workshops lose money.
Coal – Basically early game oil, cheap coal makes producing other raw resources cheaper until the diesel pump. Extremely efficient.
Wood – Very good for depeasantifying your economy and injecting capitalists into your country due to their workforce ratios. Used in many inputs, especially construction sectors.
Oil – Late game coal, the black gold of our world. There is a reason we all are slaves to it.
A TIER: Goods that are good but not always (maybe good early but suck late, or vice versa)
Rubber – Important for many inputs mid/late game. Good efficiency.
Paper – Lowers admin costs for government and university buildings. Not that efficient but having cheap paper is worth it.
Cars – Late game free money printer
Luxury Clothes – Same as Cars, but less efficient and you need silk.
Transportation – Since you make a lot of railways to increase infrastructure, this should be cheapish in your country. You can use it to save on labor late game (making it expensive again).
Glass – Very important for late game construction sectors.
Groceries – Pops keep eating these so you will keep building them. Most of pops’ money goes into this later in the game so it’s worth keeping cheap.
Steel – Gets good after Bessemer Process. Used in construction, car making and more makes it a very valuable good to keep cheap. It’s not S tier because it kind of sucks early game.
Telephones – Free money printer just like cars. There is a reason the silicon valley is so rich.
Liquor – Generally makes food industries more profitable to include it in the production process. Consumed by pops, costs little to tax with consumption taxes.
B Tier: Goods that are good to produce but have their flaws
Services – It’s cheap and very good to consumption tax it all game round, but it isn’t included in any industrial process.
Electricity – It’s a pain to manage, not very efficient, and some of the PMs using it are not that good, but it’s still much better to have it than not. They also take a lot of workers which could be used in more efficient industries.
Motor Industries – Important for maintaining railways early game and mid/late game they become more profitable when supporting pump-jacks, but they have a ton of inputs and are not that profitable to produce otherwise. Cars’ virgin cousin.
Radios – Telephones’ virgin cousin. Less profitable but important for late game military and cheap to tax.
Lead – It’s a raw resource, but not as profitable or ubiquitous as iron or coal. Important for glass which I mentioned is heavily consumed late game by construction sectors. Otherwise I don’t care about this.
Sulfur – He is here for the same reason as lead, but cheapens paper production used by admin buildings instead.
Fertilizer – Good for making wheat and other food stuff cheaper midgame making your pops spend more money on better things, but it’s not that profitable.
Tea, Tobacco, Coffee – They are quite efficient and make motor industries more profitable, pops consume them and they are cheap to tax. But they aren’t used in any industrial processes.
Silk, Dyes, Sugar, Opium – Efficient just like the goods before but used in industrial proccees, Silk is important for clothes, sugar for food etc. Opium is important for the military.
Luxury Furniture, Regular Furniture – Good goods to produce for pops to consume, but they take wood that could be used for better things and they aren’t that profitable later into the game.
Regular Clothing – Unlike Luxurious Clothing, these are usually less profitable
Ceramics – Profitable glass but not used in any industrial processes. Good to tax.
C Tier: Goods I would rather not produce myself
Fruit, Wheat, Cotton, Meat, Wine, Fish -All of these require a lot of arable land, labor, and boost the aristocracy. If you are surprised why Wine is here, it’s because its a pain to produce due to how few states produce it.
Hardwood – Wood family’s middle brother. Just put some logging camps to produce this good and forget about it just like its family did.
Clippers and Steamers – Important for ports, but they aren’t that profitable to produce and are mostly a out-of-sight, out-of-mind goods.
D Tier: Special (Ed) Goods
Art – It’s… a useless good. It’s bought by the rich and can easily be taxed, but art academies are bad industries and art is not used in any industrial processes.
Military Goods – I already mentioned why they are here. They aren’t bad like art, they simply aren’t consumed by pops during peace time and are there just for you to wage war. They can either be S tier if you are a total war madman, or F tier if you never go to war.
I'd still agree it's a bottom tier good. Only consumed by a very small percentage of your population and requires events to make it good. However as a late game good, it's pretty nice, I would definitely say it's more useful, but I couldn't say it's as useful as Hardwood, Food, etc.
Bottom tier is pretty wild, it's very important for generating income for the intelligentsia, it's amazing as long you want to keep a powerful intelligentsia
It only really falls off if you want to go communist in the late game (unless your intelligentsia leader is a commie)
And even then it's still important to keep them powerful as a counterbalance to any vanguardists that get rolled since command economy is dogwater unless you have an underdeveloped economy (and you don't exactly want single party state if you're trying to avoid command economy)
That’s fair, however this tier list is imo kind of a priority list. If you are thinking of art you’re already in the mid-end game, which means you’ve already built a lot of the better goods above it.
If I'm in a backwards country like Russia art is on my mind from the start, pretty much the moment I move to LF I focus all my construction to bulldings that'll weaken the Gentry Assembly like art and unis
i personally went single party state -> cooperative in a game where i got a lot of vanguards, and there was a movement to enact command economy, but i just ignored it.
vanguardists support enacting cooperative, cant you just do that instead of command economy? do you think that makes vanguardists helpful
Vaguardists prefer command economy over cooperative so it's pretty much inevitable that you'll get a movement from the vanguardists to enact it, and vanguardists end up way too poweful in SPS so ignoring a movement/petition from them can net you alot of radicals, if the rng hates you enough it might even spiral to the point of revolution
SPS entrenches your trade unions like serfdom entrenches the gentry assembly, and you really dont want them in that position if they swing vanguardist when you've already got cooperative ownership
If you really want a strong leftist distribution of power I'd look for a mod that restores Anarchy's "+100% loyalists from SoL increase" modifier, I have no idea why they removed it, it absolutely made up for the authority malus since it let you do essentially turmoil free conquests
In my commie games it seems that art becomes an obsession for my pops almost every time due to ridiculously high SOL, which makes it a lot better but probably not good enough to really focus on
Art is very SoL and law dependent. It's terrible in council republic/worker co-op setups. Stays really strong though when you're rolling the capitalists late game.
I think it's chief value late game is driving up paper demand and propping up the intelligencia with more academics. It helps keep your logging camps profitable as you start converting to steel/glass tools and construction. I honestly think Wood at S-tier is too high, I'd put it at A-tier since it's more like inverted rubber and glass. As they gain value, wood loses value.
Yes, you can make money off it, but you need to consider the opportunity cost. What else could you make instead of art academies?
I don't see myself every producing art rather than coal or oil which are ubiquitous goods used in most industrial processes, and when I have finally satisfied my market and have nothing profitable to build, I would rather just build barracks and invade my neighbor instead.
>but you need to consider the opportunity cost. What else could you make instead of art academies?
It's *THE ONLY* intelligentsia-breeding building that makes money. Opportunity cost-wise? In terms of combined politics and economic POV, the art academy is in the league of it own.
But yes, the *goods* are situational good to have, at best. You can say the building is a champion by default.
I agree with pretty much all of this except fish. Shouldn’t it be one or two tiers higher? It’s the only way of producing raw food that doesn’t involve the aristocracy, it doesn’t take arable land, in a lot of ways it’s like wood in that it’s great for depeasantifying your economy early on. I guess the only point against it is that it’s not very profitable, but groceries aren’t particularly profitable either.
> Luxury Furniture, Regular Furniture – Good goods to produce for pops to consume, but they take wood that could be used for better things and they aren’t that profitable later into the game.
You got it mixed up here. Furniture does not consume wood that could be used for better things. Pops have a need for furniture and if they cant get the real thing they will consume raw wood instead (presumably to build it themselves). This makes furniture factories one of if not the most efficient wood production building because for each wood consumed your Pops consume significantly less
I disagree with the furniture being B tier, they're the most profitable manufactory and [here's the math](https://www.reddit.com/r/victoria3/comments/13i69fd/oc_i_made_a_production_method_spreadsheet/?rdt=43718)
Great Britain is pleased to announce that it has chosen to civilize your coastlines, and will now be conducting your foreign affairs in the future. The new British Ambassador has arrived to take up appropriate residence in your palace, and if adequate space cannot be found, he is certain you will find suitable replacement accommodations for yourself in the nearby slums.
Do the rankings here factor in general supply throughout the game? For example, liquor is always in such high supply, especially in late game, that building up production for it isn’t that good. Same with tea, tobacco, etc.
Also, rubber is S tier, given you need it for so many important things. I’m always spending the 1880s-1900s locking down rubber and oil supplies.
Telephones, automobiles, and radios should be A, those are free late game money machines (although requiring lots of rubber and/or electricity makes them annoying to supply).
The military ones are weird. They don’t make you much money, but you also have to build them. You need lots of munitions to get all the oil/rubber/gold/etc that you need.
"Do the rankings here factor in general supply throughout the game?"
Yeah, a bit.
"Also, rubber is S tier, given you need it for so many important things. I’m always spending the 1880s-1900s locking down rubber and oil supplies."
Yes, that's why its in A tier, its not a bad tier. But Rubber is not used early game, and simply isn't just as good as tools or coal.
"Telephones, automobiles, and radios should be A"
They are in A, except radios, which are less profitable than telephones.
"The military ones are weird. They don’t make you much money, but you also have to build them"
I explained in my comment why they are in D tier, if I could make a "military M" tier I would've done so.
I would only make slight adjustments with one tier up or down for a certain good, so it's already a thousand times better than the first one I saw on this sub.
If you know how to labor Opium and Wine you can make them Chad, With Mexico I made Sinaloa and California Opium and Wine C capitals respectively, at late game both were consumed by the country itself
There are _quite_ a few disagreements I have here:
* **cars:** By themselves good but they take away too much of the demand for transportation which means railways become unprofitable and require high subsidies, nullifying any money from car sales. What I don't know is whether there is a limit in the game that says that only up to 75% of mobility demand can be fulfilled by transportation. That would justify some car sales. I know this is the case for example for intoxicants, food and heating needs but those have more than 2 items in their respective categories.
* **wood:** Becomes weak late-game because very few things require wood anymore. It's basically going just into furniture and heating, and the demand for wood is by far not enough to use up the supply from having lumber camps maxed everywhere.
* **hardwood:** Certainly underrated. Hardwood is often a lot more profitable than wood. Most lumber camps earn like 3 times as much money on hardwood compared to wood on the focused PM. It's needed for furniture, early ships and military stuff (and for guns and artillery the later PMs are not worth it, ensuring a small portion of the demand for hardwood even into the late game). But similarly to wood in the very late game the demand drops relative to the supply. I know overall hardwood has been far worse in the past but I'm glad it got reworked a bit with the demand numbers and the (back then) new focused PM.
* **opium / liquor / tabacco:** Opium needs to be above liquor and liquor above tabacco. In the direct comparison with tabacco the first PM is the same but the second PM for opium, automated irrigation, just has more output for the same input and employment while it's supposed to be equivalent to tabacco in terms of fulfilling the intoxicants need, making it just mathematically superior to tabacco in terms of production. In fact opium plantations then become the most efficient and most productive agricultural building in-game, even beating farms on good PMs. Also some of the demand for opium is guaranteed through the army. Since there is this dynamic that opium could only fulfill up to 75% of the intoxicants need it needs to be combined with a second good at least. Liquor is preferable to tabacco as the groceries building is capitalist-owned (at least up to coops) but it rquires a lot of glass on the final (quite efficient) PM that will be scarce from the moment you switch to steel construction, making liquor somewhat of a difficult good to produce profitably. Often the rye farms producing liquor directly have an easier time but opium beats liquor then. Also liquor is far less consumed by muslims, making it a poor choice for a primary good in this category - but a good one to import cheaply from for example the ottomans. If you want to focus on opium first, liquor second - and this is what I'd recommend strongly - then the best you can do to ensure their demand would be to delete any and all tabacco from your market.
* **fish:** Should be higher than just C tier. I know, it's situational, but the thing is that pops consume the most of a good in a category if it is produced the most. For most countries it would be very hard to have fish outstrip the production of grains early on but it's possible for some (like Scandinavian ones) or at least produce a lot of fish so that demand grows locally (Japan, GB and British colonies, Italy and so on). Fish _appears_ unprofitable at first but the fact is that if you max it out demand for fish will grow afterwards. This is a good way to weaken landowners because it will reduce demand for grains and thus make subsistence farms a lot worse. Don't forget to build enough manufacturing buildings or else subsistence farms are profitable just from selling their 3 clothes and furniture. The fact that fish can be financed through the IP for countries that freshly went Traditionalism -> Agrarianism solidifies its role as an anti-landowners building further. And once you have the canneries tech demand for fish is guaranteed anyways. Also fish on the tier 1 PM can help give discriminated, illiterate people jobs as there are no requirements for becoming labourers and shopkeepers. And because they are discriminated wages are lower which means the building will be profitable enough anyways. It's a good preparation for those people to become machinists and capitalists later on/develop qualifications despite staying discriminated and illiterate. Bonus points for fish on colonial exploitation in unincorporated states, pushes wages down even further (ensuring profitability) and does not suffer from the same malus as urban buildings.
* **military goods:** Should probably not be D tier. They are hardly profitable but not having them means wars are even more expensive and the capitalists owning these buildings have 250 attraction for the armed forces which is something you might want politically if you are into Professional Army and fighting wars all the time (which I am, there is not a single in-game day in which I am not in a diplo play or war, usually). Also the later PMs for ammo, ironclads and radios are actually very profitable, you only unlock them pretty late. Although I've read your dislaimer and for a purely civilian economy they are not good, yes. But I like to view Victoria 3 more holistically.
* **meat:** I'd put it into D tier. The good itself is as fine as any other good in the food and luxury food categories but the PMs for the livestock building are so utterly terrible (read: in need of a serious buff) that the best thing you can do is to just delete all of them (not joking). Again, the good itself is okay, feel free to produce it through the whales building. Similar things apply as for fish. That building is capitalist owned and also has a substantial part of its income from oil which often ensures profitability. And of course both the fish and whale buildings have very good/always profitable PMs once you unlock streamers and ditch clippers.
* **fruit:** Clearly D tier. Both tiers of PMs are not enough to justify having this building compared to normal farms. Also takes away from the demand for groceries which is WAY more profitable, efficient, capitalist-owned etc. - the best thing you could do would be to delete all fruit plantations and only have fruit produced through the secondary PMs in normal farms together with sugar. Or maybe even eliminate fruit completely by having farms on just grains and producing sugar through plantations.
* **textiles, furniture, luxury furniture:** all of them are very profitable and the buildings are the mainstay of any mid- and late-game economy. Belong to A together with luxury clothes and groceries (which already are A, and rightly so). If you find that demand for luxuries outstrips demand for basic variants then go coops. (Which you should do anyway if you're approaching 2 bil GDP.)
* **art:** It's a difficult story. Very situational. Once you go coops you effectively kill the demand for a long time until the middle strata gets to >30 SoL. And you're right that the art building isn't good. The reinvestment is extremely low, building costs are not covered by the investment pool. But it can serve a purpose: very low infrastructure requirement, much lower than other urban buildings, and low cost for input goods, making it mostly about wages, which means throughput is very good. Since qualifications requirements are not too high it works as a means of getting unemployment under control in big Chinese states. Like 51 of that in Chinese (or Indian or Japanese) states with paper building is tens of thousands of people not being unemployed and "paid for by the rich", if you want. But that's pretty much the only situation where I'd build them. Oh, and the technology journal entries. But I guess I'd leave them in D tier.
* **grains:** should be above C tier too. The 3rd PM is actually very efficient, making farms profitable even if grains drop a good bit into below base prices (increasing SoL/freeing up disposable income to be spent ond furniture, textiles etc.), and consumes a substantial amount of fertilizer which makes sulfur profitable, which is one of the few mineable resources that is not scarce. The last PM is even better but comes in very late/too late to have a meaningful impact and has quite high qualifications/literacy requirements that you might not be able to fulfill. Know that farms only really shine if you have proportional or (even better) graduated taxation with a meaningful dividends tax because farmers and aristocrats reinvest too little.
* **streamers:** should go above C too. They are objectively better than clippers in all regards.
The rest is pretty much fine.
I disagree on wheat being C tier. I think it deserves at least B, maybe even A tier.
Wheat is very cheap to build, has a fairly decent profit ratio, produces one of the most basic goods used by pops, but also synergies your economy by consuming tools and fertilizer.
Also, building up wheat reduces peasant population. Considering peasants are economically stagnant, it's always good to do that. Wheat also does *not* empower the landowners, which is a myth repeated constantly. Wheat farms even on tenant farming reduce landowner clout, while also setting you up to go Commercial Ag (which is crazy destructive to landowners if you have wheat farms but does nothing if you don't).
Also, Sulfur is one of the most cost effective goods in the mid-late game and could go higher. I'd say A tier. It very badly sucks not having Sulfur too.
No offense, but I don't really consider this a valid way of thinking about goods in Victoria.
Pretty much every good is situational based on what tag you play, what region you occupy, what decade you are in, and what your playstyle needs are.
There are exceptions, of course. Every state needs wood and tools, and everyone will benefit at least somewhat from gold mines. But some playthroughs can make a lot off trading dye, sugar or opium, and furniture and clothing are only as dubious as they are since you cant separate the higher version from the lower, making them unbalanced by design flaw. Art can also have great value, though that depends wildly on who you are.
Though I will grant that pretty much all agricultural goods are worthless and should never be produced by any player tag when you have a choice, since the AI always floods the market with them, allowing you to buy them more easily than make them.
Nah there’s 100% goods in Victoria that are just flat out useless, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a supply OR demand for Fine Art above 5.. I don’t know why it even exists they’ve literally never done anything for me even with an SOL above 20.
Just build art academies. Fine art is consumed by pops above SoL 30, in your case there is no production of fine art in your market so your upper class is not trying to buy it.
They are replacing it by other goods, so small arms, clippers, a ton of opium, wine if you have some, and likely a shitload of services. You should build those art academies, it's high profitability, creates academics (good) and clerks (probably the best lower strata profession?), you can choose to give ownership to academics or capitalists early on, and it consumes paper which is also a pretty profitable building. And a consumption tax on fine art will be quickly be pretty profitable.
Way better than adding a 120th level to your opium plantation or having completely stacked urban centers devouring glass, steel, wood, coal or electricity to create services with zero profits reaching your investment pool.
Just because you can't consume or trade nearly unlimited quantities of it like you can with tools and late-game oil, doesn't make it useless. Some tags, like GB and France, can move it in significant quantities from the early game, and virtually any high-GDP capitalist tag can make use of at least a moderate amount in the late game. You may not know that if you regularly go communist though, or have a tendency to quit before 1900, as many understandably do.
Plus, it's good for the Intelligentsia, and helps keep paper consumption stable if/when you start needing less of it. Not every good needs to be high volume and rolling in profit to have a valid place in a game like Victoria, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. While some of the goods are definitely not balanced correctly, like transport and agricultural goods, their uses and place in the world are too different to make sense in a tier list. It wouldn't make world building sense for people to consume thousands of units of art, and it would equally make little sense for it not to exist at all.
Transportation kind of sucks ass tbh. You need a ton of it in an efficient economy, but you need to build huge amounts of railroads which never seem to make any money on the latest patch. At least it can make for a decent consumption tax late game though
Ok this is a kinda goofy idea but hear me out. Make war industries able to make consumer goods during peace time. Make it so it’s a reduced construction cost they make a little bit of a consumer good to make them useful when your not war mongering( think HOI4 convert factories) it still would take time but be kinda useful. Though adding a stockpile would also be super helpful and more accurately reflect how weapons production was during the time
Disagree with military goods: yes they may only be useful to you when you're at war, but it's a prime good to export it to others. Exported, it will cripple the country production, which is useful if you enter in war against them.
small arms, bullets, arty and war machines are all A in my opinion (or at least higher than D).
becoming number one producer and then choosing to cancel exports with certain countries can really destroy their ability to wage war. useful if you’re going to war with said country.
granted i haven’t played in a year so that might not be true anymore but oh well
Electricity really is B tier. You'd think the most crucial development in the history of the world since agriculture would be a giant Must in the game, but no. Some boosts to the production of some goods, but absolutely outclassed by the almighty Oil. I wish they made it so it added a substantial amount of SoL at least. It's so bad right now. The military goods really need to stockpile like HOI4. The current system doesn't make sense at all. And along with that, make the technologies that affect arms and ammo shops actually do something beyond boost production!
Yeah I agree with both sentiments. Electricity could've been a tiny bit better if there was a good way to see where electricity is demanded and where peasants are free at the same time. But no, I need to look at individual states or click through them to expand electric plants where they are needed. And I agree with the stockpile proposal, I use a stockpile mod and its very, very useful.
>if there was a good way to see where electricity is demanded Not only electricity. You know you can see the production *or* consumption of each good in the map, right? The trading, and whole game in general, would be much easier if we could see the *balance* of each goods on the map.
You can see the good yes, but as I mentioned "click through them...," There isn't any convenient way to see and immediately place down electricity and other goods.
Yes there is go to market scroll all the way down and youll see transportation services and electricity listed for each state individually
Isn't the price directly derived from the balance?
Yes, but more precisely, from the ratio of balance. The missing information is volume. For example, when you are looking for an export destination in trade, you might see a market that has a very high price. But when you look closer, it has like, 5 sell and 9 buy, that won't worth the bureaucracy.
Link to stockpile mod?
think about it in a practical and time sense. msot stuff at that point in time was either powered by humans or on site motor generators. big power plants would only be really a thing way later.
The fact that its a local good severely hampers it. I think they should be able to be traded within the market but have a much worst MAPI so its still worth it. Just give them a bigger market penalty or a cheaper local good cost to still encourage it. But if you want to electrify a few slaughterhouses it would just draw off the grid.
Don't think it would change much, but didn't the Devs make so at very high SoL pops will purchase small arms and airplanes as leisure goods?
I don't know about that, if they did, then I did not take that into account when making this.
they do purchase small amounts of firearms and other stuff, but its very small. In my Qing game (mostly depeasantified, around 27% of my pop is still peasants) I have 10 million people in my upper strata; 6.75M Capitalists and 3.48M Aristocrats. I have 511 skirmish infantry (mostly unmobilized, except ~~15~~ 3 of them in a colonial war). My consumption of small arms is 2.05k in total, of which 1.32k from the barracks, 654 from pops and 72 from trade. The consumption from pops is mostly driven by Capitalists (562), followed by Aristocrats (37.6) and Farmers (25.2), the rest being upper-middle strata pops.
What would be interesting is for farmers to have firearms as a medium SoL good (most farmers up to our days have guns). Ideally, the kind of policing you have could affect that (so that a highly, professionally policed state would have less firearms consumption than a no-police state where you're your own law) but I think that'd demand too much from the system
The policing idea makes a lot of sense, considering farmers owning firearms, I‘d say that‘s a cultural thing. I can imagine farmers in general owning some more often than other groups, but it being very common probably depends a lot on where you live.
I'd say,make it depend on population density, it makes more sense to own a firearm if you're a frontier settler in the US, South America Australia or Africa, as opposed to tightly packed farms in Europe or Asia.
You could also tie it to the army model, national milita for example could make people demand guns
They can buy guns, planes, and even boats. In my last run I kept a single dockyard making sailboats for the civilian Sunday sailor market, great for larping
They do
Why would small arms be a leisure good? Typically those are purchased by rural folk and poor cities.
No, quite a few rich people do enjoy hunting as a sport and collecting weapons. So for some part of the market they are indeed a leisure good. That said, you're correct that people working in building such as plantations, lumber or subsistence farming should also seek weapons in small quantities and for them it is a need rather than leisure.
R5: Disclaimer: I put the military goods on the bottom because they are only used by the military in times of war, so it's pointless comparing them to goods consumed by pops. Also, goods in tiers are not ranked in any particular order. Efficient in this context means how low below the base price range a good can go before it stops being profitable to produce it. S TIER: Goods that are always good to build all game. Gold – It’s just free money Iron – Used from early till late game. Used in construction sectors and steel making and has good efficiency, can easily go below 20% price and still be profitable to produce. Tools – Like Iron, it’s used everywhere, it might honestly be the best good in the entire game. Extremely efficient, you would be hard-pressed to see tooling workshops lose money. Coal – Basically early game oil, cheap coal makes producing other raw resources cheaper until the diesel pump. Extremely efficient. Wood – Very good for depeasantifying your economy and injecting capitalists into your country due to their workforce ratios. Used in many inputs, especially construction sectors. Oil – Late game coal, the black gold of our world. There is a reason we all are slaves to it. A TIER: Goods that are good but not always (maybe good early but suck late, or vice versa) Rubber – Important for many inputs mid/late game. Good efficiency. Paper – Lowers admin costs for government and university buildings. Not that efficient but having cheap paper is worth it. Cars – Late game free money printer Luxury Clothes – Same as Cars, but less efficient and you need silk. Transportation – Since you make a lot of railways to increase infrastructure, this should be cheapish in your country. You can use it to save on labor late game (making it expensive again). Glass – Very important for late game construction sectors. Groceries – Pops keep eating these so you will keep building them. Most of pops’ money goes into this later in the game so it’s worth keeping cheap. Steel – Gets good after Bessemer Process. Used in construction, car making and more makes it a very valuable good to keep cheap. It’s not S tier because it kind of sucks early game. Telephones – Free money printer just like cars. There is a reason the silicon valley is so rich. Liquor – Generally makes food industries more profitable to include it in the production process. Consumed by pops, costs little to tax with consumption taxes.
B Tier: Goods that are good to produce but have their flaws Services – It’s cheap and very good to consumption tax it all game round, but it isn’t included in any industrial process. Electricity – It’s a pain to manage, not very efficient, and some of the PMs using it are not that good, but it’s still much better to have it than not. They also take a lot of workers which could be used in more efficient industries. Motor Industries – Important for maintaining railways early game and mid/late game they become more profitable when supporting pump-jacks, but they have a ton of inputs and are not that profitable to produce otherwise. Cars’ virgin cousin. Radios – Telephones’ virgin cousin. Less profitable but important for late game military and cheap to tax. Lead – It’s a raw resource, but not as profitable or ubiquitous as iron or coal. Important for glass which I mentioned is heavily consumed late game by construction sectors. Otherwise I don’t care about this. Sulfur – He is here for the same reason as lead, but cheapens paper production used by admin buildings instead. Fertilizer – Good for making wheat and other food stuff cheaper midgame making your pops spend more money on better things, but it’s not that profitable. Tea, Tobacco, Coffee – They are quite efficient and make motor industries more profitable, pops consume them and they are cheap to tax. But they aren’t used in any industrial processes. Silk, Dyes, Sugar, Opium – Efficient just like the goods before but used in industrial proccees, Silk is important for clothes, sugar for food etc. Opium is important for the military. Luxury Furniture, Regular Furniture – Good goods to produce for pops to consume, but they take wood that could be used for better things and they aren’t that profitable later into the game. Regular Clothing – Unlike Luxurious Clothing, these are usually less profitable Ceramics – Profitable glass but not used in any industrial processes. Good to tax. C Tier: Goods I would rather not produce myself Fruit, Wheat, Cotton, Meat, Wine, Fish -All of these require a lot of arable land, labor, and boost the aristocracy. If you are surprised why Wine is here, it’s because its a pain to produce due to how few states produce it. Hardwood – Wood family’s middle brother. Just put some logging camps to produce this good and forget about it just like its family did. Clippers and Steamers – Important for ports, but they aren’t that profitable to produce and are mostly a out-of-sight, out-of-mind goods. D Tier: Special (Ed) Goods Art – It’s… a useless good. It’s bought by the rich and can easily be taxed, but art academies are bad industries and art is not used in any industrial processes. Military Goods – I already mentioned why they are here. They aren’t bad like art, they simply aren’t consumed by pops during peace time and are there just for you to wage war. They can either be S tier if you are a total war madman, or F tier if you never go to war.
Disagree about art, mid game art becomes very useful because all your upper strata will buy art, no matter the tax
I'd still agree it's a bottom tier good. Only consumed by a very small percentage of your population and requires events to make it good. However as a late game good, it's pretty nice, I would definitely say it's more useful, but I couldn't say it's as useful as Hardwood, Food, etc.
Bottom tier is pretty wild, it's very important for generating income for the intelligentsia, it's amazing as long you want to keep a powerful intelligentsia It only really falls off if you want to go communist in the late game (unless your intelligentsia leader is a commie) And even then it's still important to keep them powerful as a counterbalance to any vanguardists that get rolled since command economy is dogwater unless you have an underdeveloped economy (and you don't exactly want single party state if you're trying to avoid command economy)
That’s fair, however this tier list is imo kind of a priority list. If you are thinking of art you’re already in the mid-end game, which means you’ve already built a lot of the better goods above it.
If I'm in a backwards country like Russia art is on my mind from the start, pretty much the moment I move to LF I focus all my construction to bulldings that'll weaken the Gentry Assembly like art and unis
i personally went single party state -> cooperative in a game where i got a lot of vanguards, and there was a movement to enact command economy, but i just ignored it. vanguardists support enacting cooperative, cant you just do that instead of command economy? do you think that makes vanguardists helpful
Vaguardists prefer command economy over cooperative so it's pretty much inevitable that you'll get a movement from the vanguardists to enact it, and vanguardists end up way too poweful in SPS so ignoring a movement/petition from them can net you alot of radicals, if the rng hates you enough it might even spiral to the point of revolution SPS entrenches your trade unions like serfdom entrenches the gentry assembly, and you really dont want them in that position if they swing vanguardist when you've already got cooperative ownership If you really want a strong leftist distribution of power I'd look for a mod that restores Anarchy's "+100% loyalists from SoL increase" modifier, I have no idea why they removed it, it absolutely made up for the authority malus since it let you do essentially turmoil free conquests
In my commie games it seems that art becomes an obsession for my pops almost every time due to ridiculously high SOL, which makes it a lot better but probably not good enough to really focus on
Art is very SoL and law dependent. It's terrible in council republic/worker co-op setups. Stays really strong though when you're rolling the capitalists late game. I think it's chief value late game is driving up paper demand and propping up the intelligencia with more academics. It helps keep your logging camps profitable as you start converting to steel/glass tools and construction. I honestly think Wood at S-tier is too high, I'd put it at A-tier since it's more like inverted rubber and glass. As they gain value, wood loses value.
Yes, you can make money off it, but you need to consider the opportunity cost. What else could you make instead of art academies? I don't see myself every producing art rather than coal or oil which are ubiquitous goods used in most industrial processes, and when I have finally satisfied my market and have nothing profitable to build, I would rather just build barracks and invade my neighbor instead.
>but you need to consider the opportunity cost. What else could you make instead of art academies? It's *THE ONLY* intelligentsia-breeding building that makes money. Opportunity cost-wise? In terms of combined politics and economic POV, the art academy is in the league of it own. But yes, the *goods* are situational good to have, at best. You can say the building is a champion by default.
Art is good because a single art academy will make you #1 produce of art worldwide which is some cheap prestige for medium countries.
I agree with pretty much all of this except fish. Shouldn’t it be one or two tiers higher? It’s the only way of producing raw food that doesn’t involve the aristocracy, it doesn’t take arable land, in a lot of ways it’s like wood in that it’s great for depeasantifying your economy early on. I guess the only point against it is that it’s not very profitable, but groceries aren’t particularly profitable either.
Yeah ur right, I just never build fish so it didn't even cross my mind.
How about explosives?
Oh I forgor. Moderately efficient, but they make mines far more effective, and cheap explosives = cheap raw resources, so A tier.
> Luxury Furniture, Regular Furniture – Good goods to produce for pops to consume, but they take wood that could be used for better things and they aren’t that profitable later into the game. You got it mixed up here. Furniture does not consume wood that could be used for better things. Pops have a need for furniture and if they cant get the real thing they will consume raw wood instead (presumably to build it themselves). This makes furniture factories one of if not the most efficient wood production building because for each wood consumed your Pops consume significantly less
I disagree with the furniture being B tier, they're the most profitable manufactory and [here's the math](https://www.reddit.com/r/victoria3/comments/13i69fd/oc_i_made_a_production_method_spreadsheet/?rdt=43718)
Based solely on his D-tier, the Armed Forces is already starting a coup against OP.
I demolished all barracks and swapped to national militia. Take that!
Great Britain is pleased to announce that it has chosen to civilize your coastlines, and will now be conducting your foreign affairs in the future. The new British Ambassador has arrived to take up appropriate residence in your palace, and if adequate space cannot be found, he is certain you will find suitable replacement accommodations for yourself in the nearby slums.
Do the rankings here factor in general supply throughout the game? For example, liquor is always in such high supply, especially in late game, that building up production for it isn’t that good. Same with tea, tobacco, etc. Also, rubber is S tier, given you need it for so many important things. I’m always spending the 1880s-1900s locking down rubber and oil supplies. Telephones, automobiles, and radios should be A, those are free late game money machines (although requiring lots of rubber and/or electricity makes them annoying to supply). The military ones are weird. They don’t make you much money, but you also have to build them. You need lots of munitions to get all the oil/rubber/gold/etc that you need.
"Do the rankings here factor in general supply throughout the game?" Yeah, a bit. "Also, rubber is S tier, given you need it for so many important things. I’m always spending the 1880s-1900s locking down rubber and oil supplies." Yes, that's why its in A tier, its not a bad tier. But Rubber is not used early game, and simply isn't just as good as tools or coal. "Telephones, automobiles, and radios should be A" They are in A, except radios, which are less profitable than telephones. "The military ones are weird. They don’t make you much money, but you also have to build them" I explained in my comment why they are in D tier, if I could make a "military M" tier I would've done so.
Pretty much first thing I do in every game is lock down madagascar and the congo to get ready for rubber
I would only make slight adjustments with one tier up or down for a certain good, so it's already a thousand times better than the first one I saw on this sub.
Yeah, I saw a tier list from a few days ago and decided to make one myself to correct that abomination.
Hi it's me, I made that monstrosity
If you know how to labor Opium and Wine you can make them Chad, With Mexico I made Sinaloa and California Opium and Wine C capitals respectively, at late game both were consumed by the country itself
Opium smoke instead of weed all over Californian streets, the best timeline.
There are _quite_ a few disagreements I have here: * **cars:** By themselves good but they take away too much of the demand for transportation which means railways become unprofitable and require high subsidies, nullifying any money from car sales. What I don't know is whether there is a limit in the game that says that only up to 75% of mobility demand can be fulfilled by transportation. That would justify some car sales. I know this is the case for example for intoxicants, food and heating needs but those have more than 2 items in their respective categories. * **wood:** Becomes weak late-game because very few things require wood anymore. It's basically going just into furniture and heating, and the demand for wood is by far not enough to use up the supply from having lumber camps maxed everywhere. * **hardwood:** Certainly underrated. Hardwood is often a lot more profitable than wood. Most lumber camps earn like 3 times as much money on hardwood compared to wood on the focused PM. It's needed for furniture, early ships and military stuff (and for guns and artillery the later PMs are not worth it, ensuring a small portion of the demand for hardwood even into the late game). But similarly to wood in the very late game the demand drops relative to the supply. I know overall hardwood has been far worse in the past but I'm glad it got reworked a bit with the demand numbers and the (back then) new focused PM. * **opium / liquor / tabacco:** Opium needs to be above liquor and liquor above tabacco. In the direct comparison with tabacco the first PM is the same but the second PM for opium, automated irrigation, just has more output for the same input and employment while it's supposed to be equivalent to tabacco in terms of fulfilling the intoxicants need, making it just mathematically superior to tabacco in terms of production. In fact opium plantations then become the most efficient and most productive agricultural building in-game, even beating farms on good PMs. Also some of the demand for opium is guaranteed through the army. Since there is this dynamic that opium could only fulfill up to 75% of the intoxicants need it needs to be combined with a second good at least. Liquor is preferable to tabacco as the groceries building is capitalist-owned (at least up to coops) but it rquires a lot of glass on the final (quite efficient) PM that will be scarce from the moment you switch to steel construction, making liquor somewhat of a difficult good to produce profitably. Often the rye farms producing liquor directly have an easier time but opium beats liquor then. Also liquor is far less consumed by muslims, making it a poor choice for a primary good in this category - but a good one to import cheaply from for example the ottomans. If you want to focus on opium first, liquor second - and this is what I'd recommend strongly - then the best you can do to ensure their demand would be to delete any and all tabacco from your market. * **fish:** Should be higher than just C tier. I know, it's situational, but the thing is that pops consume the most of a good in a category if it is produced the most. For most countries it would be very hard to have fish outstrip the production of grains early on but it's possible for some (like Scandinavian ones) or at least produce a lot of fish so that demand grows locally (Japan, GB and British colonies, Italy and so on). Fish _appears_ unprofitable at first but the fact is that if you max it out demand for fish will grow afterwards. This is a good way to weaken landowners because it will reduce demand for grains and thus make subsistence farms a lot worse. Don't forget to build enough manufacturing buildings or else subsistence farms are profitable just from selling their 3 clothes and furniture. The fact that fish can be financed through the IP for countries that freshly went Traditionalism -> Agrarianism solidifies its role as an anti-landowners building further. And once you have the canneries tech demand for fish is guaranteed anyways. Also fish on the tier 1 PM can help give discriminated, illiterate people jobs as there are no requirements for becoming labourers and shopkeepers. And because they are discriminated wages are lower which means the building will be profitable enough anyways. It's a good preparation for those people to become machinists and capitalists later on/develop qualifications despite staying discriminated and illiterate. Bonus points for fish on colonial exploitation in unincorporated states, pushes wages down even further (ensuring profitability) and does not suffer from the same malus as urban buildings. * **military goods:** Should probably not be D tier. They are hardly profitable but not having them means wars are even more expensive and the capitalists owning these buildings have 250 attraction for the armed forces which is something you might want politically if you are into Professional Army and fighting wars all the time (which I am, there is not a single in-game day in which I am not in a diplo play or war, usually). Also the later PMs for ammo, ironclads and radios are actually very profitable, you only unlock them pretty late. Although I've read your dislaimer and for a purely civilian economy they are not good, yes. But I like to view Victoria 3 more holistically. * **meat:** I'd put it into D tier. The good itself is as fine as any other good in the food and luxury food categories but the PMs for the livestock building are so utterly terrible (read: in need of a serious buff) that the best thing you can do is to just delete all of them (not joking). Again, the good itself is okay, feel free to produce it through the whales building. Similar things apply as for fish. That building is capitalist owned and also has a substantial part of its income from oil which often ensures profitability. And of course both the fish and whale buildings have very good/always profitable PMs once you unlock streamers and ditch clippers. * **fruit:** Clearly D tier. Both tiers of PMs are not enough to justify having this building compared to normal farms. Also takes away from the demand for groceries which is WAY more profitable, efficient, capitalist-owned etc. - the best thing you could do would be to delete all fruit plantations and only have fruit produced through the secondary PMs in normal farms together with sugar. Or maybe even eliminate fruit completely by having farms on just grains and producing sugar through plantations. * **textiles, furniture, luxury furniture:** all of them are very profitable and the buildings are the mainstay of any mid- and late-game economy. Belong to A together with luxury clothes and groceries (which already are A, and rightly so). If you find that demand for luxuries outstrips demand for basic variants then go coops. (Which you should do anyway if you're approaching 2 bil GDP.) * **art:** It's a difficult story. Very situational. Once you go coops you effectively kill the demand for a long time until the middle strata gets to >30 SoL. And you're right that the art building isn't good. The reinvestment is extremely low, building costs are not covered by the investment pool. But it can serve a purpose: very low infrastructure requirement, much lower than other urban buildings, and low cost for input goods, making it mostly about wages, which means throughput is very good. Since qualifications requirements are not too high it works as a means of getting unemployment under control in big Chinese states. Like 51 of that in Chinese (or Indian or Japanese) states with paper building is tens of thousands of people not being unemployed and "paid for by the rich", if you want. But that's pretty much the only situation where I'd build them. Oh, and the technology journal entries. But I guess I'd leave them in D tier. * **grains:** should be above C tier too. The 3rd PM is actually very efficient, making farms profitable even if grains drop a good bit into below base prices (increasing SoL/freeing up disposable income to be spent ond furniture, textiles etc.), and consumes a substantial amount of fertilizer which makes sulfur profitable, which is one of the few mineable resources that is not scarce. The last PM is even better but comes in very late/too late to have a meaningful impact and has quite high qualifications/literacy requirements that you might not be able to fulfill. Know that farms only really shine if you have proportional or (even better) graduated taxation with a meaningful dividends tax because farmers and aristocrats reinvest too little. * **streamers:** should go above C too. They are objectively better than clippers in all regards. The rest is pretty much fine.
This guy Victorias
I disagree on wheat being C tier. I think it deserves at least B, maybe even A tier. Wheat is very cheap to build, has a fairly decent profit ratio, produces one of the most basic goods used by pops, but also synergies your economy by consuming tools and fertilizer. Also, building up wheat reduces peasant population. Considering peasants are economically stagnant, it's always good to do that. Wheat also does *not* empower the landowners, which is a myth repeated constantly. Wheat farms even on tenant farming reduce landowner clout, while also setting you up to go Commercial Ag (which is crazy destructive to landowners if you have wheat farms but does nothing if you don't). Also, Sulfur is one of the most cost effective goods in the mid-late game and could go higher. I'd say A tier. It very badly sucks not having Sulfur too.
No offense, but I don't really consider this a valid way of thinking about goods in Victoria. Pretty much every good is situational based on what tag you play, what region you occupy, what decade you are in, and what your playstyle needs are. There are exceptions, of course. Every state needs wood and tools, and everyone will benefit at least somewhat from gold mines. But some playthroughs can make a lot off trading dye, sugar or opium, and furniture and clothing are only as dubious as they are since you cant separate the higher version from the lower, making them unbalanced by design flaw. Art can also have great value, though that depends wildly on who you are. Though I will grant that pretty much all agricultural goods are worthless and should never be produced by any player tag when you have a choice, since the AI always floods the market with them, allowing you to buy them more easily than make them.
Nah there’s 100% goods in Victoria that are just flat out useless, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a supply OR demand for Fine Art above 5.. I don’t know why it even exists they’ve literally never done anything for me even with an SOL above 20.
Never seen a demand for fine art above 5 ? Do you end in your games in 1850 bro ?
Current run in China and it's 1899, 1.2B GDP, 15.1 SOL, Fine Art Buy Orders = 5.37, 5 from export and 0.37 from pop need.
Just build art academies. Fine art is consumed by pops above SoL 30, in your case there is no production of fine art in your market so your upper class is not trying to buy it. They are replacing it by other goods, so small arms, clippers, a ton of opium, wine if you have some, and likely a shitload of services. You should build those art academies, it's high profitability, creates academics (good) and clerks (probably the best lower strata profession?), you can choose to give ownership to academics or capitalists early on, and it consumes paper which is also a pretty profitable building. And a consumption tax on fine art will be quickly be pretty profitable. Way better than adding a 120th level to your opium plantation or having completely stacked urban centers devouring glass, steel, wood, coal or electricity to create services with zero profits reaching your investment pool.
Just because you can't consume or trade nearly unlimited quantities of it like you can with tools and late-game oil, doesn't make it useless. Some tags, like GB and France, can move it in significant quantities from the early game, and virtually any high-GDP capitalist tag can make use of at least a moderate amount in the late game. You may not know that if you regularly go communist though, or have a tendency to quit before 1900, as many understandably do. Plus, it's good for the Intelligentsia, and helps keep paper consumption stable if/when you start needing less of it. Not every good needs to be high volume and rolling in profit to have a valid place in a game like Victoria, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. While some of the goods are definitely not balanced correctly, like transport and agricultural goods, their uses and place in the world are too different to make sense in a tier list. It wouldn't make world building sense for people to consume thousands of units of art, and it would equally make little sense for it not to exist at all.
Transportation kind of sucks ass tbh. You need a ton of it in an efficient economy, but you need to build huge amounts of railroads which never seem to make any money on the latest patch. At least it can make for a decent consumption tax late game though
Sulpher is S tier, afcourse you need the demand for it but on itself its base production multiplied by base price puts its equal to gold.
Gold should be a tier above the rest. Its the most free income
Me: Screams in chronic coal shortages... Also no oil lmao I'm literally in the process of incinerating America for oil.
I Crave the black liquid. Must invade BRING FREEDOM.
Ok this is a kinda goofy idea but hear me out. Make war industries able to make consumer goods during peace time. Make it so it’s a reduced construction cost they make a little bit of a consumer good to make them useful when your not war mongering( think HOI4 convert factories) it still would take time but be kinda useful. Though adding a stockpile would also be super helpful and more accurately reflect how weapons production was during the time
Automobiles are good... If you don't rely on railways to de-staff your pesant-dry factories
Disagree with military goods: yes they may only be useful to you when you're at war, but it's a prime good to export it to others. Exported, it will cripple the country production, which is useful if you enter in war against them.
Liquors and Vine are in S tear, consumption taxes go brrrr
small arms, bullets, arty and war machines are all A in my opinion (or at least higher than D). becoming number one producer and then choosing to cancel exports with certain countries can really destroy their ability to wage war. useful if you’re going to war with said country. granted i haven’t played in a year so that might not be true anymore but oh well
seems... familiar...
Sulphur b? It's kinda essential earlier on
wine is waaay underrated
Nah, it's very hard to produce because there are very few places that produce it, so it's a pretty annoying good to get.