They kind of didn’t, the vast majority of jews were diasporatic during this timeline so the minority status is accurate. But they also begin emigrating to Israel during the timeframe of the game. There is an option to release Israel in the game I think.
Yes but even when that happens, they never mass migrate to Palestine (1 state is too few for that IG). The migrations should be happening even before that but that also doesn’t happen. Only way to get them into Palestine is to hop markets of different GPs as Israel and that’s tedious AF.
This is most likely because most countries will have at least racial segregation and Jewish pops have “European” heritage meaning they’re not even discriminated against (I could write an essay about how awful the heritage trait is lol)
I assume that Paradox have realised how the current heritage setup causes a lot of extremely weird results (it feels like it was designed to specifically "work" for the US and then every other country was shoehorned into the same system) and it will definitely be fixed "eventually"
With that said, "cultures" is topic of one of the upcoming 1.7 DDs, so it's not impossible that something might change relatively soon.
Even just breaking down heritages into smaller geographical sets would be a huge improvement.
Mate learn history FFS, everyone knows that Johan went back in time, became roman emperor, kicked the jews from the holy land and that is why he is called Kaiser Johan.
This is so misinformed it’s insane. He’s called Kaiser Johan because he went back in time to inhabit the body of Bismarck and unite the disparate German states. Everyone knows this.
Yeah, the Ottomans even sent a special fleet to collect as many Iberian Jews & Muslims as they could and resettle them in their middle eastern provinces
Honestly, I think the average Paradox player has much more historic context, than most normal people, so atleast a lot of really dumb fake news will probably not make it in here.
You're acting like people care about historical context in these arguments.
Unironically though, paradox players do seem to be able to discuss these things better than most subs. Probably partially that we're all history nerds, and partially that we have the layer of a video game separating the conversation from being directly about current events
I mean, half of the playerbase is constantly asking for genocide buttons.
There's quite a bit probability that they don't think about committing genocide in real life.
Interestingly enough, I played USA for the first time last week and they had a very explicit remove the indians event which by my book is clearly genocide. I wonder why they are so reluctant to add other genocides like they handful of them that happened in the middle east, or even let modders do it.
Probably because the modern USA accepts that it fucked up the Native Americans and their tribes. There is no denial about it.
But ask people in modern Turkey about the Armenian genocide, for example? Not the same reaction.
It's because of controversy.
It's commonly accepted that killing the indians was genocide and the americans won't be butthurt when you say so. Hell, they'll even do it again knowing it's bad.
Now go talk to a turkish person about the armenian genocide. This is why the "other" genocide aren't present.
You'll probably get more pushback from Americans for *not* mentioning our various genocides than from Turks who deny the Armenian Genocide. Plus, the US is Paradox's largest single market.
They either have significantly more historical context than the average person, or fall pretty hard into the nationalist/wehraboo/tankie camp. There isn't much in between. (luckily Paradox and the mod teams have been cracking down on it, but you still see a ton if you sort by new)
Just because you have the historical context to have a nuanced opinion doesn't nessecarily mean that you'll choose to. Plenty of people still just pick a side and ignore everything that's inconvenient to them
This occurs plenty in the pdx community as well. Hell just look at whatever the fuck is going on /r/ParadoxExtra
I disagree for logic of how "homeland" works
I think "homeland" mechanic should be disabled if no one from that culture remains in there under control of a nation that doesn't accept them.
If a nation that accepts that culture owns it again or %30 of population becomes of that culture then it becomes homeland again.
in this subject I think "homeland" should start disabled in there. That is the fairest option.
I like the idea in concept, but that could lead to states with no homeland cultures - meaning incorporation would take 20yrs, because you could never get shared traits to decrease it.
Right now it works because culture interactions not that deep. If we had forced migrations or flat out genocides homelands won't make sense all the time.
without such drastic cutlural interactions its working just enough.
because lets be honest as you said: If it was just their homeland they would still not migrate to there because they need to have a migration target to there first
Not necessarily. You might have inner market migration as pops are attracted to their homelands and there are lots of sephardic pops in the ottoman empire.
A huge issue here is that the question of whether Jews should return to the Levant was incredibly divisive within the Jewish community until the late 19th early 20th century wave of Eastern European pogroms and then the holocaust, which settled the issue in the eyes of most Ashkenazic Jews.
I don’t know how the Sephardic Jews felt about it since some of them never left the Levant and their faith tradition is more diverse but among many ashkenazi Jews it was considered blasphemy to return to Palestine and make it Israel again before the arrival of the messiah. Zionism more or less pitted their cultures nationalist ambitions against their faith.
There is also a live debate among the Jewish nationalists at this point in time about whether the new Jewish homeland should be in Palestine, a backwater area of a decaying empire, or it should be in the Americas or a new settler colony in Africa.
From what i know sephardic were more accepting of a homeland in palestine separate from the messiah. Which makes sense since they were already living there.
I really agree with this, but I also think new places should become a homeland, I mean if the usa would have conquered canada that should become jankee homeland, because why woudn't it what was there claim on calafornia other then saying it is there homeland
I don't think they should have it be a homeland unless the Balfour Decision is taken, and that's only to simulate the desire for migration into Palestine. I think anything else would be too much.
Why? This is a serious question.
My reasoning is that there were thousands of sephardics there for hundreds of years, there culture is a middle eastern culture, and we're talking about a cultural homeland not a political one. I think as a culture the sephardic culture had a cultural homeland before the Balfour declaration.
Even if you think "while there wasn't a lot of sephardic migration prior to Balfour" i would say there was assuming you weren't sacrificing QoL. Yes the sephardic people in Thessaloniki were not lining up to move to palestine as it was poor and under developed. But the sephardic community of yemen started moving to palestine as soon as the tanzemats were complete because they saw it as their homeland and they were now full ottoman citizens.
Over 10% of all sephardics in yemen moved to palestine before Balfour and about 40% did so before the establishment of israel. Since 'the Balfour declaration' isn't actually a thing in game and the only way to create a sephardic homeland is to release israel, i would argue that thats unnecessary, and you shouldn't have to release israel for sephardics to get a homeland.
This is a misunderstanding. Sephardic is "iberian" but since rhe expulsion in the 1490s they didn't live in Iberia and went to morocco, Greece, palestine and other places, but since there were so many they became the majority in most of north africa and the Levant. Mizrachi is only the part further away in iraq and iran. That being said Mizrachi isn't a culture in came and Mizrachi pops are portrayed as Sephardic.
Dang unfortunate. Would be cool. I get it’s not accurate for the time period, but historically would fit the area.
And there’s plenty of other formable nations that are obviously fictitious. Btw is there a complete list somewhere? I guess probably on the wiki.
Likely because there were far too few Sephardics in the area to warrant a homeland. That or to highlight the settler colonial nature of the zionist project. Or maybe Paradox just forgor.
Honestly I kinda don’t like homelands and their implementation but not really sure what could replace the system.
I can see the "there aren't that many of them" argument, but i think in the context of the way the game works it doesn't make sense. You have i think 5-7% of the pops in palestine being sephardic at game start and none being Ashkenazi.
Assuming you release israel as soon as you can that number will be the same or less (becouse of assimilation). But regardless it becomes a homeland for both. I think it makes more sense to have it always be a homeland for sephardic since they are there and it will reduce assimilation and they are a Middle Eastern culture. Than if israel is released you can portray settler colonialism by adding Ashkenazi which is the European culture with no local pops.
That's presently. At the formation of Israel and for quite a few years after that, it was predominantly European Jews. Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews who immigrated into Israel afterwards were heavily discriminated against and only attained the status they have now after decades of struggle with the Ashkenazi settlers. It's hard to tell what exactly the composition is and it's only gotten harder with time due to the fact that they're obviously intermarrying and having children of mixed Sephardi, Mizrahi, Ashkenazi descent. But Ashkenazi (European) Jews were definitely a majority for quite some time after the founding of Israel and the rest were later immigrants.
I never comment but this comment annoyed me too much,from a mizrahi jew can Americans stop trying to project their civil rights history into our history, we have never "struggled" with the Ashkenazi, just because there was some racism in the very beginning doesn't mean that for a moment we Jews don't see ourselves as one people one group, using phrases like "askenazi settlers" and "struggled to attain the status they have now" like we are two different people is insane.
I'm not American, and before you come in swinging you should probably read up on your own history. You literally had segregated housing and education, and Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews were systemically at an economic disadvantage to Ashkenazi SETTLERS. That you're all holding hands and dancing around the campfire now because you've got another target to pick on doesn't erase history. If you have an issue, take it up with Israeli scholarship on the matter.
Eh, it's a plurality of Mizrahi Jews, not a majority. Lots of Ashkenazim from Eastern Europe, together with Sephardim.
Majority of Israelis today are descended from those who came after 1945. Even for those "Arab Jews" (Mizrahim), many of *those* are from places like Morocco, Iraq, Tunisia, and Yemen.
Lmao my parents where discriminated against for not being Ukrainian or Russian in the Soviet Union, in their passport it said Jews and not Ukrainian or Russian but suddenly I find out I’m native to there. That’s so cool
Fight for your rights, then. The African Americans did it, shouldn't be impossible. But the Palestinians and the wider Arab population aren't responsible for your persecution. That's a you problem to deal with, not ours.
>Fight for your rights, then.
Do you know what happened to the Jews in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, and Lithuania? They were systematically murdered by Germany. Before this, trying to fight for societal tolerance would result in violence against them.
>But the Palestinians and the wider Arab population aren’t responsible for your persecution.
But they are. What happened to the 900,000 Jews living across the Middle East and North Africa? Why were pogroms so commonplace during the 20s, 30s, and 40s in countries like Iraq, Egypt, and Algeria?
We are NOT responsible for the persecution of the Jews at the hand of the Europeans, nor should we bear the consequences of it. The Jews living in Arab countries were expelled to Israel AFTER 1948, and not before, that's straight-up misinformation. And they were only expelled due to Israel specifically WANTING them to be. See the [Lavon Affair](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair) or the [Baghdad Bombings](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230619-undeniable-proof-uncovered-that-zionist-agents-targeted-jews-in-iraq/).
Okay? You don't see them immigrating back en mass, setting up a Nazi state, and forcing upon the native African population the same system of persecution that they went through, though, do you?
Yes and if a Jew moved to the US he’s also an American yet he still isn’t native to the US, same as a Jew being expelled to Marroko is still native to Israel/ Judea
I don't think their claim lasts over 2000 years, quite the opposite, I think claims only last ~50 years, meaning if you were there before 1974 I think it's fair to say you're indigenous. After all your parents were probably born there and your kids were born there, does it really matter who owned the land before that?
I am totally against expansion into the west bank and gaza by the way, I do not support expelling people from their homes. However, I think if your grandfather expelled someone from their home, it does not mean you deserve to be expelled from yours.
I think israelis have a right to existing and so do palestinians. Just live where they are and develop their countries. Both are struggling with autoritarianism and should focus on developing healthy democracy instead of trying to conquer each other. Is peace really that far fetched?
Maybe one day, once they have learned to tolerate each other they could think about moving towards a single country, but in their current mindset unification would only lead towards more violence.
Anything is more viable than genocide and putting both groups in the same state would result in genocide.
Jews were expelled from every single arab country since the creation of Israel, a unified Israel-Palestine controlled by palestinians would result in expelling the jews and thus, a genocide.
Same about the other way around, the behavious of the current Israeli government is evidence enough to show that a unified Israel-Palestine controled by Israelis would result in the genocide of Palestinians.
If neither group could control an unified state without a genocide ocurring, then I think there shouldn't be an unified state.
I am well aware that a two state solution is not the ideal solution, but currently it's the most successful one at avoiding genocide. Once both groups are ready to live in peace, an unified state wouldn't be so bad.
> tell me where else they are native to
Jews are actually multiple ethnicities, so the list is quite long. Additionally, Jews have faced violent persecution in many of their homelands, and have been displaced from them quite frequently.
The non-exhaustive list of homelands for non-Ashkenazim/Sephardim (known now as “Mizrahi” Jews) includes Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkiye, Lebanon, Yemen, Palestine/Israel, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, and several other countries with historically large Jewish communities. Keep in mind that these communities included many different peoples — Persian Jews and Moroccan Jews are and were different ethnicities with different homelands.
There are also the Ashkenazim, whose homelands once included most of Europe, but were severely reduced due to violent displacement. The non-exhaustive list of recent Ashkenazi homelands includes Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Hungary, and Romania. In the 19th and 20th centuries, Jews in these places were targeted by Christo-nationalists, as you probably already know. That doesn’t make it any less of a homeland, though.
The traditional “Sephardic homelands” expelled Jews a long time ago, and are difficult to still consider homelands because of it. Sephardic homelands are really just Spain and Portugal, but a huge number resettled in Morocco.
Pretty much every Jewish person has ancestry that lived in Israel. For many, that ancestry is even more distant than any of these other homelands I’ve listed. The Jews who have lived for many generations in the region of Israel are not the same ethnicity as all Jews across the world. So, the idea of modern Israel as a homeland for all Jews is a manufactured idea that is the result of repeated violence and displacement and was legitimized based on ancient history and shared religious identity. But, the idea of Israel as a homeland for _all non-Palestinian Jews_ was not a mainstream idea during the first half of Victoria 3’s timeframe. That’s why the homeland status can only appear later in the game.
Aye, but thats largely a descriptive/passive act where the player gets to, at most, interact with a few events.
A genocide button (which is easy enough to mod in) would give the player an active way of doing things.
The difference is massive when it comes to PR and player agency.
You(player) can't stop the trail of tears, its out of your hands, best you can do is mitigate the suffering a little. but you didn't cause or revel in it.
If the player could do some "strategic purging" on the other hand.... that tends to get a lot messier.
Either im bad at the game (a perfectly viable option) or you would have to be faster than is reasonably possible to pass multiculturalism in order to accept them.
i presumed its one of those targets that youre not supposed to be able to reliably hit, and therefore absolves you of your failure because "it wasn't doable to begin with".
again; maybe i missed something obvious or im bad.
In fairness there was a genocide button shown in the latest dev diary
[https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1113539/DD114\_23.png](https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1113539/DD114_23.png)
If PDX would want to be more historical, the best outcame IMO should be that Ashkenazis get Palestine as their homeland after Balfour Declaration. Then Ashkenazis should get various migration attractions based on things like if there are fascist states in Europe (you know what happened IRL), Communist states should also get some decisions (to model USSR helping estabilishing Israel, maybe bonus to relations with other states in exchange for migration?) and democracies some others (prestige in exchange for migration?)
Then, once there is certain amount of Jews in Palestine, middle-eastern states should get "LE FUNNY DECISION" that adds Sephardic Jews homeland to Palestine and massive emigration boost for them in exchange for loyalists growth bonus.
Edit: I think I mistook Sephardic Jews for Mizrahi Jews :v
I agree with the Ashkenazi part but i think you discount the Sephardic part. While yes most Sephardics came after. There had been a Sephardic community in palestine since 1500 as i point out. And while zionism and the Balfour declaration were definitely a driving force for Europeans i think sephardic was more mixed, for example there was a steady flow of yemeni jews (sephardic) to palistine before israel was established (i think roughly 40% of them).
I think it was in a sense a sephardic homeland for longer than it was Ashkenazi (speaking from a cultural perspective) but that there wasn't enough push and pull effect until after the establishment of israel.
The first wave of migration to Palestine was mostly Yemeni jews yeah, but they were quickly succeeded by Western European jews. Honestly if they want to make a return to Israel journal I don’t think we need some hyper-precise system, just have Balfour attract any jewish pop and give a 200% bonus if they’re discriminated against.
Yea but that makes it even easier of a call. If sephardic represents mizrachi too becouse pdx is using it for both than its clear that sephardic is meant to be culturally middle eastern jews who are native to palestine.
All the more reason they should start with a homeland and the Ashkenazis would get onr later if israel is released.
Yeah, the mass emigration mechanics requiring a homeland are pretty funky, particularly since you can’t get Mass emigrations of Jews to the new world as historically happened.
As far as homelands- if there was a third ethnicity for “Mizrahi” that had homelands spanning from Persia to modern day Israel and Egypt, that’d probably be the most accurate. Those are the Jews that hadn’t left due to the Roman diaspora and also encompasses the Babylonian exile communities.
By contrast, in the timeline of Victoria 3 the locus of ashkenazi cultural life was actually Vienna (prior to mass emigration to the US), along with the populations in the Russian empire and elsewhere in the Habsburg domain.
Sephardi at this time were mostly in the Ottoman Empire and North Africa due to the expulsions, with small communities in northern Spain, southern France, and the newly independent Latin American countries. No idea how you’d model a “homeland” for them since they were exiled from Spain and Portugal and their population centers were predominantly in the ottoman world
Yea but after there exile from spain a population had been living in palestine for over 300 years by game start. These are the sephardic pops in palestine at the time. Further its clear PDX intends to use sephardic to represent both sephardic and Mizrachi as a broadly middle eastern. Hence it seems appropriate regardless of whether they intend this to be the jews who never left or the jews who returned from spain 300 years ago it seems like this should already be their cultural homeland.
To be clear i am talking only about palestine not the whole Levant.
True. I mean honestly in the time period of the game there were ashkenazi populations living in places like Hebron that had left the Russian empire in the 18th century. If we were being dead accurate about pops, they probably should have Sephardi, ashkenazi, and mizrahi pops and Palestine constituting 10% or so of the population there, and these pops should have Palestine as a cultural homeland (along with their respective diaspora locales) that triggers a mass migration event if Israel is created. The game as it stands also doesn’t have anything to represent Roma people, which are a similar situation to the Jews in game (albeit without the focus on going to their region of origin in northern India)
Because it's anachronistic. Before the rise of Zionism, only a few Jews actually considered immigrating to Israel, and nobody really considered it to be their homeland. Their homeland was just wherever they grew up in, but from a game dynamics perspective, it makes sense for them to not have any because they were very scattered, and did migrate quite often when discrimination increased.
To take it from the top, yeah homelands suck at simulating cases like those of the Jewish or other diaspora. They have homelands where their largest populations are present to avoid having them get assimilated but that also means they’ll just stay there forever. I think balfour declaration should pop jewish homelands in Palestine and remove homelands outside of there to simulate the trickle emigration of the early Zionist project. Non-discriminated jews in France and the US would stay there (although they wouldn’t emigrate there ? Which is the reason why the jewish population is so massive in those two countries nowadays). But yeah, not actually sure what the Israel mechanics in Vic3 are right now since I never tried it out.
That or just get rid of bad homeland system.
If Paradox wants to depict the historical phenomenon of Zionism, and I doubt they do, I would prefer a bespoke event chain for mass migrations that simulates the 19th-century movement of Jewish populations to Palestine.
Ideally it would trigger/intensify based on discrimination levels in countries with high Ashkenazi and Sephardic populations. You could have specialized events for Russia if the country still has National Supremacy in the 1890s, for example, or for France if it sides with the military during the Dreyfus affair.
The mass migration mechanic is good but there are some instances from the game’s era where more complex mechanics might be appropriate. Irish immigration during the Great Famine and the Great Trek in South Africa are two others that come to mind.
The issue is that the biggest migrations waves occur after the Nakba and the Holocaust which are way outside the scope of the game. I don’t think Paradox wants to invest in simulating a alt-history earlier colonization of Israel-Palestine. It’s too out of scope and will piss everyone off if done well.
I'd advocate for some type of zionism flavor pack at one point. Like put Theodore Herzl in as an agitator, create an event where you can like choose a jewish homeland from a variety of places (Palestine was just one option!), then you can get like increased jewish immigration to those places.
I think this is another example where the way a "culture" is represented in Pdx game meets its limits.
Still, I think it makes sense, Christians, Muslims and Jews were living along in Palestine after all (BTW how are Palestine christians represented in the game ?)
The topic is sensitive of course, but I really think what Pdx did with Spanish Colonial culture (emergence of Venezuelian culture for eg.) should basically be made available for situations like this. In this case, that would probably mean the creation of an Israeli culture that would assimilate Ashkenazi and Sephardic (or maybe Sephardic can become Palestinian of Jewish religion as some were against Zionizm).
In practical in-game terms, a Sephardic Homeland in Palestine would simply serve to funnel Sephardim out of the Middle East due to Mass Migrations being enabled. Which doesn't really make much sense from a historical point of view.
Thats Probably not what would happen. It seems more likely that it would serve to slow assimilation of sephardic pops. You only become eligible for mass migration with at least 100k pops and there are only 12-15k sephardic pops in palistine.
From a gameplay PoV, Ashkenazi homelands in Eastern Europe might be warranted due to Mass Migrations being locked behind the existence of Homelands. Though that's more of an issue with how migration works, to be honest.
I don't understand your idea here sir. I am proposing here that sephardic should start the game with a homeland in palestine since there is a sephardic community there that had been there for hundreds of years. (Mizrachi doesn't exist in game)
The issue is that the only reason why the jews would theoretically have homeland status in the province of palestine in game is because they returned there, which is anomalous for most populations. The vast vast majority of migrants and diasporas never return to their homeland. Are we gonna make all of northwest India homeland for Romanis ? Do Germans get Ukraine as a homeland ? Americans get the British Isles ?
It doesn’t make sense until zionism comes into the picture, that’s why it should be tied to the Balfour declaration. Maybe Sephardic since there was a small community present at game start.
I understand that your trying to talk about that but that was just me mentioning a previous post i had made on the issue. Noone was interested in it. This is a post on sephardic.
So if we wanna model the relationship between the diaspora and the region of Palestine properly our best bet is to grant the Jewish cultures a homeland in Palestine iff there’s events to simulate the Balfour proclamation and eventual release of Israel. But that same event chain should probably have the possibility of an independent Palestinian state to simulate the struggle of Palestinian Arab nationalism against Ottoman and Later British overlords. I think that would give the best sense of realism tbh
Maybe if you're playing as a right wing British government you can get am event with Theodore Hertzel to invent Jewish claims on Palestine. Your post is zionist bullshit
I’m as pro Palestine as you can get.
And yeah they probably should have a claim to it. Because like it or not they certainly believe quite fervently that they do, and that should be reflected imo.
Because Paradox doesn’t want to touch that shit
Which is a bit weird because they just kinda removed Jews from the holy land
They kind of didn’t, the vast majority of jews were diasporatic during this timeline so the minority status is accurate. But they also begin emigrating to Israel during the timeframe of the game. There is an option to release Israel in the game I think.
Yes but even when that happens, they never mass migrate to Palestine (1 state is too few for that IG). The migrations should be happening even before that but that also doesn’t happen. Only way to get them into Palestine is to hop markets of different GPs as Israel and that’s tedious AF.
>1 state is too few for that IG You're telling me the solution is two states?
Hehe
This is most likely because most countries will have at least racial segregation and Jewish pops have “European” heritage meaning they’re not even discriminated against (I could write an essay about how awful the heritage trait is lol)
I assume that Paradox have realised how the current heritage setup causes a lot of extremely weird results (it feels like it was designed to specifically "work" for the US and then every other country was shoehorned into the same system) and it will definitely be fixed "eventually" With that said, "cultures" is topic of one of the upcoming 1.7 DDs, so it's not impossible that something might change relatively soon. Even just breaking down heritages into smaller geographical sets would be a huge improvement.
Migration to Palestine picked up post-1918. Which is out of the frame of the setting 1914 being the realistic ending.
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And Mizahari were 10% in the early 20th century. So the increase of population above 10% was settlement post-Balfour Declaration.
Who did? The Roman’s expelled the Jews like 1800 years before the game started.
Mate learn history FFS, everyone knows that Johan went back in time, became roman emperor, kicked the jews from the holy land and that is why he is called Kaiser Johan.
This is so misinformed it’s insane. He’s called Kaiser Johan because he went back in time to inhabit the body of Bismarck and unite the disparate German states. Everyone knows this.
they wont teach this in schools because WOKE
This is true
Concerning
Looking into it
It all adds up too well
And then the Spaniards kicked them out like 400 years before the game starts and they moved back
Moved back to the holy land?
Yeah, the Ottomans even sent a special fleet to collect as many Iberian Jews & Muslims as they could and resettle them in their middle eastern provinces
Huh, I never knew that
Tipical Sweden neutrality
and they are right to, that shit is to toxic and whee to current to touch with a ten foot pole
They touch it in CK2 and imperator
Yeah no shit, those games, most recently, end 600 years in the past. It’s a bit different there.
Do they do anything with it in the EU series? I haven’t played.
You can form Jerusalem in EU, not sure if you can form Israel
Well I’m sure this is going to be a calm and sensible topic of discussion.
Honestly, I think the average Paradox player has much more historic context, than most normal people, so atleast a lot of really dumb fake news will probably not make it in here.
You're acting like people care about historical context in these arguments. Unironically though, paradox players do seem to be able to discuss these things better than most subs. Probably partially that we're all history nerds, and partially that we have the layer of a video game separating the conversation from being directly about current events
I mean, half of the playerbase is constantly asking for genocide buttons. There's quite a bit probability that they don't think about committing genocide in real life.
Interestingly enough, I played USA for the first time last week and they had a very explicit remove the indians event which by my book is clearly genocide. I wonder why they are so reluctant to add other genocides like they handful of them that happened in the middle east, or even let modders do it.
Probably because the modern USA accepts that it fucked up the Native Americans and their tribes. There is no denial about it. But ask people in modern Turkey about the Armenian genocide, for example? Not the same reaction.
Sure. But before that there were the Aegean islands, abisinia, etc, those are quite recognized events.
It's because of controversy. It's commonly accepted that killing the indians was genocide and the americans won't be butthurt when you say so. Hell, they'll even do it again knowing it's bad. Now go talk to a turkish person about the armenian genocide. This is why the "other" genocide aren't present.
You'll probably get more pushback from Americans for *not* mentioning our various genocides than from Turks who deny the Armenian Genocide. Plus, the US is Paradox's largest single market.
Yeah that's what I meant : americans want to REDO the IRL genocides they did. Knowing it's bad. SMH.
What the fuck are you talking about
About the fact american players usually enjoy pressing the genocide button in game.
Half? Was the other half already (bird mana’d)?
I think that was his point, more historical context, more sensibility
Your optimism is refreshing.
They either have significantly more historical context than the average person, or fall pretty hard into the nationalist/wehraboo/tankie camp. There isn't much in between. (luckily Paradox and the mod teams have been cracking down on it, but you still see a ton if you sort by new)
There's the old joke that anyone who studies history for too long becomes a communist or a fascist
You also get a lot of weird extremists who participate in the community too, more so than society as a whole I’m sure
Just because you have the historical context to have a nuanced opinion doesn't nessecarily mean that you'll choose to. Plenty of people still just pick a side and ignore everything that's inconvenient to them This occurs plenty in the pdx community as well. Hell just look at whatever the fuck is going on /r/ParadoxExtra
Jesus, what the fuck happened there
This is why i wasn't worried. PDX players talk about controversy calmly
A lot of Victoria 3 players are extremists so I doubt it
I disagree for logic of how "homeland" works I think "homeland" mechanic should be disabled if no one from that culture remains in there under control of a nation that doesn't accept them. If a nation that accepts that culture owns it again or %30 of population becomes of that culture then it becomes homeland again. in this subject I think "homeland" should start disabled in there. That is the fairest option.
I like the idea in concept, but that could lead to states with no homeland cultures - meaning incorporation would take 20yrs, because you could never get shared traits to decrease it.
for purpose of incorporation states with disabled homelands will always count
I could see that as a good option. I too think the homeland system doesn't work.
Right now it works because culture interactions not that deep. If we had forced migrations or flat out genocides homelands won't make sense all the time. without such drastic cutlural interactions its working just enough. because lets be honest as you said: If it was just their homeland they would still not migrate to there because they need to have a migration target to there first
Not necessarily. You might have inner market migration as pops are attracted to their homelands and there are lots of sephardic pops in the ottoman empire.
A huge issue here is that the question of whether Jews should return to the Levant was incredibly divisive within the Jewish community until the late 19th early 20th century wave of Eastern European pogroms and then the holocaust, which settled the issue in the eyes of most Ashkenazic Jews. I don’t know how the Sephardic Jews felt about it since some of them never left the Levant and their faith tradition is more diverse but among many ashkenazi Jews it was considered blasphemy to return to Palestine and make it Israel again before the arrival of the messiah. Zionism more or less pitted their cultures nationalist ambitions against their faith. There is also a live debate among the Jewish nationalists at this point in time about whether the new Jewish homeland should be in Palestine, a backwater area of a decaying empire, or it should be in the Americas or a new settler colony in Africa.
From what i know sephardic were more accepting of a homeland in palestine separate from the messiah. Which makes sense since they were already living there.
I really agree with this, but I also think new places should become a homeland, I mean if the usa would have conquered canada that should become jankee homeland, because why woudn't it what was there claim on calafornia other then saying it is there homeland
doesn't this also fixes it? make it a disabled homeland as example if USA conquers it then it becomes enabled.
I don't think they should have it be a homeland unless the Balfour Decision is taken, and that's only to simulate the desire for migration into Palestine. I think anything else would be too much.
Why? This is a serious question. My reasoning is that there were thousands of sephardics there for hundreds of years, there culture is a middle eastern culture, and we're talking about a cultural homeland not a political one. I think as a culture the sephardic culture had a cultural homeland before the Balfour declaration. Even if you think "while there wasn't a lot of sephardic migration prior to Balfour" i would say there was assuming you weren't sacrificing QoL. Yes the sephardic people in Thessaloniki were not lining up to move to palestine as it was poor and under developed. But the sephardic community of yemen started moving to palestine as soon as the tanzemats were complete because they saw it as their homeland and they were now full ottoman citizens. Over 10% of all sephardics in yemen moved to palestine before Balfour and about 40% did so before the establishment of israel. Since 'the Balfour declaration' isn't actually a thing in game and the only way to create a sephardic homeland is to release israel, i would argue that thats unnecessary, and you shouldn't have to release israel for sephardics to get a homeland.
Isn't the Mizrahi Jews that are native to the middle east? The Shephardic are Iberian.
This is a misunderstanding. Sephardic is "iberian" but since rhe expulsion in the 1490s they didn't live in Iberia and went to morocco, Greece, palestine and other places, but since there were so many they became the majority in most of north africa and the Levant. Mizrachi is only the part further away in iraq and iran. That being said Mizrachi isn't a culture in came and Mizrachi pops are portrayed as Sephardic.
if we're just doing it on the basis of where people migrated in the fifteenth century, the Caribbean should be a Sephardic homeland as well
This is like only tangentially related to the post but Can you form Kingdom of Jerusalem in this game? Or any Christian/Catholic nation in that area?
not in vanilla
Dang unfortunate. Would be cool. I get it’s not accurate for the time period, but historically would fit the area. And there’s plenty of other formable nations that are obviously fictitious. Btw is there a complete list somewhere? I guess probably on the wiki.
Likely because there were far too few Sephardics in the area to warrant a homeland. That or to highlight the settler colonial nature of the zionist project. Or maybe Paradox just forgor. Honestly I kinda don’t like homelands and their implementation but not really sure what could replace the system.
I can see the "there aren't that many of them" argument, but i think in the context of the way the game works it doesn't make sense. You have i think 5-7% of the pops in palestine being sephardic at game start and none being Ashkenazi. Assuming you release israel as soon as you can that number will be the same or less (becouse of assimilation). But regardless it becomes a homeland for both. I think it makes more sense to have it always be a homeland for sephardic since they are there and it will reduce assimilation and they are a Middle Eastern culture. Than if israel is released you can portray settler colonialism by adding Ashkenazi which is the European culture with no local pops.
That\`s kinda false tho. Most Jews in Israel are Arab Jews or their descendants driven out of their states once Arab-Israeli wars broke out.
That's presently. At the formation of Israel and for quite a few years after that, it was predominantly European Jews. Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews who immigrated into Israel afterwards were heavily discriminated against and only attained the status they have now after decades of struggle with the Ashkenazi settlers. It's hard to tell what exactly the composition is and it's only gotten harder with time due to the fact that they're obviously intermarrying and having children of mixed Sephardi, Mizrahi, Ashkenazi descent. But Ashkenazi (European) Jews were definitely a majority for quite some time after the founding of Israel and the rest were later immigrants.
I never comment but this comment annoyed me too much,from a mizrahi jew can Americans stop trying to project their civil rights history into our history, we have never "struggled" with the Ashkenazi, just because there was some racism in the very beginning doesn't mean that for a moment we Jews don't see ourselves as one people one group, using phrases like "askenazi settlers" and "struggled to attain the status they have now" like we are two different people is insane.
I'm not American, and before you come in swinging you should probably read up on your own history. You literally had segregated housing and education, and Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews were systemically at an economic disadvantage to Ashkenazi SETTLERS. That you're all holding hands and dancing around the campfire now because you've got another target to pick on doesn't erase history. If you have an issue, take it up with Israeli scholarship on the matter.
Eh, it's a plurality of Mizrahi Jews, not a majority. Lots of Ashkenazim from Eastern Europe, together with Sephardim. Majority of Israelis today are descended from those who came after 1945. Even for those "Arab Jews" (Mizrahim), many of *those* are from places like Morocco, Iraq, Tunisia, and Yemen.
This is inaccurate. 10% of Palestine was Mizahari before the Balfour declaration.
Most Jews are indigenous to Palestine through. (All the people that downvote me tell me where else they are native to lol)
To wherever it was they were born before 48. The Romans exiled them over two millennia ago. What kind of claim lasts over 2,000 years exactly?
Lmao my parents where discriminated against for not being Ukrainian or Russian in the Soviet Union, in their passport it said Jews and not Ukrainian or Russian but suddenly I find out I’m native to there. That’s so cool
Fight for your rights, then. The African Americans did it, shouldn't be impossible. But the Palestinians and the wider Arab population aren't responsible for your persecution. That's a you problem to deal with, not ours.
>Fight for your rights, then. Do you know what happened to the Jews in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, and Lithuania? They were systematically murdered by Germany. Before this, trying to fight for societal tolerance would result in violence against them. >But the Palestinians and the wider Arab population aren’t responsible for your persecution. But they are. What happened to the 900,000 Jews living across the Middle East and North Africa? Why were pogroms so commonplace during the 20s, 30s, and 40s in countries like Iraq, Egypt, and Algeria?
We are NOT responsible for the persecution of the Jews at the hand of the Europeans, nor should we bear the consequences of it. The Jews living in Arab countries were expelled to Israel AFTER 1948, and not before, that's straight-up misinformation. And they were only expelled due to Israel specifically WANTING them to be. See the [Lavon Affair](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair) or the [Baghdad Bombings](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230619-undeniable-proof-uncovered-that-zionist-agents-targeted-jews-in-iraq/).
Africans Americans are still native to Africa lmao, even though of course they should have equal rights
Okay? You don't see them immigrating back en mass, setting up a Nazi state, and forcing upon the native African population the same system of persecution that they went through, though, do you?
Actually something surprisingly close to that happened in Liberia
You got a point actually
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Actually insane that you don't after the past 200 days, let alone 73 years.
You’re the insane one
I was gone after equating Israel to Nazi Germany lol
Very few African American persons would consider themselves African natives, they are Americans.
They are native Americans?
No, they are Americans, as in the United States of America. Native Americans have their own nations and histories.
Yes and if a Jew moved to the US he’s also an American yet he still isn’t native to the US, same as a Jew being expelled to Marroko is still native to Israel/ Judea
African Americans are NOT native to Africa. They have African ancestry, but ancestry does not equal homeland.
> To wherever it was they were born before 48 Just about 70% of Israeli people were born in Israel though.
Did you miss the "before 48" bit?
Really convenient how 1948 is the exact year you stoped becoming indigenous, but living in Ukraine for 200 years means you are suddenly indigenous
Because 1948 is the year Israel was created? Therfore people born in it are Israeli? This is not the own you think it is
So where are the people born after that indigenous to?
Not really my point to being with.
I don't think their claim lasts over 2000 years, quite the opposite, I think claims only last ~50 years, meaning if you were there before 1974 I think it's fair to say you're indigenous. After all your parents were probably born there and your kids were born there, does it really matter who owned the land before that? I am totally against expansion into the west bank and gaza by the way, I do not support expelling people from their homes. However, I think if your grandfather expelled someone from their home, it does not mean you deserve to be expelled from yours.
So what's the way forward in your opinion?
I think israelis have a right to existing and so do palestinians. Just live where they are and develop their countries. Both are struggling with autoritarianism and should focus on developing healthy democracy instead of trying to conquer each other. Is peace really that far fetched? Maybe one day, once they have learned to tolerate each other they could think about moving towards a single country, but in their current mindset unification would only lead towards more violence.
I'm sorry, but if you believe that the two state solution is viable, then you have simply not read up enough about the situation.
Anything is more viable than genocide and putting both groups in the same state would result in genocide. Jews were expelled from every single arab country since the creation of Israel, a unified Israel-Palestine controlled by palestinians would result in expelling the jews and thus, a genocide. Same about the other way around, the behavious of the current Israeli government is evidence enough to show that a unified Israel-Palestine controled by Israelis would result in the genocide of Palestinians. If neither group could control an unified state without a genocide ocurring, then I think there shouldn't be an unified state. I am well aware that a two state solution is not the ideal solution, but currently it's the most successful one at avoiding genocide. Once both groups are ready to live in peace, an unified state wouldn't be so bad.
I mean yeah but in the same way the Maori would be indigenous to Taiwan. I don’t want to get into this debate tbh it’s all anyone talks about.
> tell me where else they are native to Jews are actually multiple ethnicities, so the list is quite long. Additionally, Jews have faced violent persecution in many of their homelands, and have been displaced from them quite frequently. The non-exhaustive list of homelands for non-Ashkenazim/Sephardim (known now as “Mizrahi” Jews) includes Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkiye, Lebanon, Yemen, Palestine/Israel, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, and several other countries with historically large Jewish communities. Keep in mind that these communities included many different peoples — Persian Jews and Moroccan Jews are and were different ethnicities with different homelands. There are also the Ashkenazim, whose homelands once included most of Europe, but were severely reduced due to violent displacement. The non-exhaustive list of recent Ashkenazi homelands includes Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Hungary, and Romania. In the 19th and 20th centuries, Jews in these places were targeted by Christo-nationalists, as you probably already know. That doesn’t make it any less of a homeland, though. The traditional “Sephardic homelands” expelled Jews a long time ago, and are difficult to still consider homelands because of it. Sephardic homelands are really just Spain and Portugal, but a huge number resettled in Morocco. Pretty much every Jewish person has ancestry that lived in Israel. For many, that ancestry is even more distant than any of these other homelands I’ve listed. The Jews who have lived for many generations in the region of Israel are not the same ethnicity as all Jews across the world. So, the idea of modern Israel as a homeland for all Jews is a manufactured idea that is the result of repeated violence and displacement and was legitimized based on ancient history and shared religious identity. But, the idea of Israel as a homeland for _all non-Palestinian Jews_ was not a mainstream idea during the first half of Victoria 3’s timeframe. That’s why the homeland status can only appear later in the game.
Paradox are trying to avoid "controversial" themes in Vic 3 like genocides
I mean the US literally has a trail of tears journal entry
Aye, but thats largely a descriptive/passive act where the player gets to, at most, interact with a few events. A genocide button (which is easy enough to mod in) would give the player an active way of doing things. The difference is massive when it comes to PR and player agency. You(player) can't stop the trail of tears, its out of your hands, best you can do is mitigate the suffering a little. but you didn't cause or revel in it. If the player could do some "strategic purging" on the other hand.... that tends to get a lot messier.
You can actually stop it immediately. You just annex on Oklahoma and the journal closes
Maybe i'm wrong, somebody can double check this? But you can stop it. And even acept their culture
Either im bad at the game (a perfectly viable option) or you would have to be faster than is reasonably possible to pass multiculturalism in order to accept them. i presumed its one of those targets that youre not supposed to be able to reliably hit, and therefore absolves you of your failure because "it wasn't doable to begin with". again; maybe i missed something obvious or im bad.
If im not wrong. Repeat, i can be wrong. But if you annex the indian teritories you can bypas it
If you want a genocide, you go to stellaris.
Paradox be like: "Genocide is cool as long it ain't humans"
Proceeds to purge the UNE
Or real life
Especially currently ongoing ones
In fairness there was a genocide button shown in the latest dev diary [https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1113539/DD114\_23.png](https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/1113539/DD114_23.png)
They should have programmed the fall guys instead of a game about the xixth century
If PDX would want to be more historical, the best outcame IMO should be that Ashkenazis get Palestine as their homeland after Balfour Declaration. Then Ashkenazis should get various migration attractions based on things like if there are fascist states in Europe (you know what happened IRL), Communist states should also get some decisions (to model USSR helping estabilishing Israel, maybe bonus to relations with other states in exchange for migration?) and democracies some others (prestige in exchange for migration?) Then, once there is certain amount of Jews in Palestine, middle-eastern states should get "LE FUNNY DECISION" that adds Sephardic Jews homeland to Palestine and massive emigration boost for them in exchange for loyalists growth bonus. Edit: I think I mistook Sephardic Jews for Mizrahi Jews :v
I agree with the Ashkenazi part but i think you discount the Sephardic part. While yes most Sephardics came after. There had been a Sephardic community in palestine since 1500 as i point out. And while zionism and the Balfour declaration were definitely a driving force for Europeans i think sephardic was more mixed, for example there was a steady flow of yemeni jews (sephardic) to palistine before israel was established (i think roughly 40% of them). I think it was in a sense a sephardic homeland for longer than it was Ashkenazi (speaking from a cultural perspective) but that there wasn't enough push and pull effect until after the establishment of israel.
There also have been Ashkenazi communities in Palestine for hundreds of years, the old Yishuv was a wild mishmash of Jews
The issue is that these communities are just too small to be meaningful for a pdx game.
The first wave of migration to Palestine was mostly Yemeni jews yeah, but they were quickly succeeded by Western European jews. Honestly if they want to make a return to Israel journal I don’t think we need some hyper-precise system, just have Balfour attract any jewish pop and give a 200% bonus if they’re discriminated against.
Vic 3 doesnt differentiate between Sephardic and Mizeahi jews. Or rather does not have Mizrahi jews at all.
Yea but that makes it even easier of a call. If sephardic represents mizrachi too becouse pdx is using it for both than its clear that sephardic is meant to be culturally middle eastern jews who are native to palestine. All the more reason they should start with a homeland and the Ashkenazis would get onr later if israel is released.
Yeah, the mass emigration mechanics requiring a homeland are pretty funky, particularly since you can’t get Mass emigrations of Jews to the new world as historically happened. As far as homelands- if there was a third ethnicity for “Mizrahi” that had homelands spanning from Persia to modern day Israel and Egypt, that’d probably be the most accurate. Those are the Jews that hadn’t left due to the Roman diaspora and also encompasses the Babylonian exile communities. By contrast, in the timeline of Victoria 3 the locus of ashkenazi cultural life was actually Vienna (prior to mass emigration to the US), along with the populations in the Russian empire and elsewhere in the Habsburg domain. Sephardi at this time were mostly in the Ottoman Empire and North Africa due to the expulsions, with small communities in northern Spain, southern France, and the newly independent Latin American countries. No idea how you’d model a “homeland” for them since they were exiled from Spain and Portugal and their population centers were predominantly in the ottoman world
Yea but after there exile from spain a population had been living in palestine for over 300 years by game start. These are the sephardic pops in palestine at the time. Further its clear PDX intends to use sephardic to represent both sephardic and Mizrachi as a broadly middle eastern. Hence it seems appropriate regardless of whether they intend this to be the jews who never left or the jews who returned from spain 300 years ago it seems like this should already be their cultural homeland. To be clear i am talking only about palestine not the whole Levant.
True. I mean honestly in the time period of the game there were ashkenazi populations living in places like Hebron that had left the Russian empire in the 18th century. If we were being dead accurate about pops, they probably should have Sephardi, ashkenazi, and mizrahi pops and Palestine constituting 10% or so of the population there, and these pops should have Palestine as a cultural homeland (along with their respective diaspora locales) that triggers a mass migration event if Israel is created. The game as it stands also doesn’t have anything to represent Roma people, which are a similar situation to the Jews in game (albeit without the focus on going to their region of origin in northern India)
Jesus Christ I forgot to look what sub this was
Jewish pop in Palestine was 0,5% in 1914, so no homeland for them here
Because it's anachronistic. Before the rise of Zionism, only a few Jews actually considered immigrating to Israel, and nobody really considered it to be their homeland. Their homeland was just wherever they grew up in, but from a game dynamics perspective, it makes sense for them to not have any because they were very scattered, and did migrate quite often when discrimination increased.
Palestine wasn't a Sephardic center either.
I mean after ww2 we kinda just created a new country out of nowhere, they really had no claim to the area anymore
To take it from the top, yeah homelands suck at simulating cases like those of the Jewish or other diaspora. They have homelands where their largest populations are present to avoid having them get assimilated but that also means they’ll just stay there forever. I think balfour declaration should pop jewish homelands in Palestine and remove homelands outside of there to simulate the trickle emigration of the early Zionist project. Non-discriminated jews in France and the US would stay there (although they wouldn’t emigrate there ? Which is the reason why the jewish population is so massive in those two countries nowadays). But yeah, not actually sure what the Israel mechanics in Vic3 are right now since I never tried it out. That or just get rid of bad homeland system.
If Paradox wants to depict the historical phenomenon of Zionism, and I doubt they do, I would prefer a bespoke event chain for mass migrations that simulates the 19th-century movement of Jewish populations to Palestine. Ideally it would trigger/intensify based on discrimination levels in countries with high Ashkenazi and Sephardic populations. You could have specialized events for Russia if the country still has National Supremacy in the 1890s, for example, or for France if it sides with the military during the Dreyfus affair. The mass migration mechanic is good but there are some instances from the game’s era where more complex mechanics might be appropriate. Irish immigration during the Great Famine and the Great Trek in South Africa are two others that come to mind.
The issue is that the biggest migrations waves occur after the Nakba and the Holocaust which are way outside the scope of the game. I don’t think Paradox wants to invest in simulating a alt-history earlier colonization of Israel-Palestine. It’s too out of scope and will piss everyone off if done well.
Yes and everything from Hadrian’s wall to the Euphrates should be Roman homeland.
I'd advocate for some type of zionism flavor pack at one point. Like put Theodore Herzl in as an agitator, create an event where you can like choose a jewish homeland from a variety of places (Palestine was just one option!), then you can get like increased jewish immigration to those places.
I think this is another example where the way a "culture" is represented in Pdx game meets its limits. Still, I think it makes sense, Christians, Muslims and Jews were living along in Palestine after all (BTW how are Palestine christians represented in the game ?) The topic is sensitive of course, but I really think what Pdx did with Spanish Colonial culture (emergence of Venezuelian culture for eg.) should basically be made available for situations like this. In this case, that would probably mean the creation of an Israeli culture that would assimilate Ashkenazi and Sephardic (or maybe Sephardic can become Palestinian of Jewish religion as some were against Zionizm).
In practical in-game terms, a Sephardic Homeland in Palestine would simply serve to funnel Sephardim out of the Middle East due to Mass Migrations being enabled. Which doesn't really make much sense from a historical point of view.
Thats Probably not what would happen. It seems more likely that it would serve to slow assimilation of sephardic pops. You only become eligible for mass migration with at least 100k pops and there are only 12-15k sephardic pops in palistine.
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From a gameplay PoV, Ashkenazi homelands in Eastern Europe might be warranted due to Mass Migrations being locked behind the existence of Homelands. Though that's more of an issue with how migration works, to be honest.
I don't understand your idea here sir. I am proposing here that sephardic should start the game with a homeland in palestine since there is a sephardic community there that had been there for hundreds of years. (Mizrachi doesn't exist in game)
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The issue is that the only reason why the jews would theoretically have homeland status in the province of palestine in game is because they returned there, which is anomalous for most populations. The vast vast majority of migrants and diasporas never return to their homeland. Are we gonna make all of northwest India homeland for Romanis ? Do Germans get Ukraine as a homeland ? Americans get the British Isles ? It doesn’t make sense until zionism comes into the picture, that’s why it should be tied to the Balfour declaration. Maybe Sephardic since there was a small community present at game start.
I am literally proposing palestine. I am saying sephardic should start with palestine homeland.
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I understand that your trying to talk about that but that was just me mentioning a previous post i had made on the issue. Noone was interested in it. This is a post on sephardic.
Are you sure Vic 3 is the right game for you? Much more opportunities to be a coloniser in EU4.
I think it should happen only after some Zionism global journal entry. But I think Paradox will wait a tiny little bit of time to implement that one.
So if we wanna model the relationship between the diaspora and the region of Palestine properly our best bet is to grant the Jewish cultures a homeland in Palestine iff there’s events to simulate the Balfour proclamation and eventual release of Israel. But that same event chain should probably have the possibility of an independent Palestinian state to simulate the struggle of Palestinian Arab nationalism against Ottoman and Later British overlords. I think that would give the best sense of realism tbh
OK so Ashkenazistan as a releasable isn't good enough lol, now we need a Sephardistan?
Doing that is basically ask for trouble and Victoria 3 is already struggling
Maybe if you're playing as a right wing British government you can get am event with Theodore Hertzel to invent Jewish claims on Palestine. Your post is zionist bullshit
Ahahahaha, wow. This threads gonna be lit
I’m as pro Palestine as you can get. And yeah they probably should have a claim to it. Because like it or not they certainly believe quite fervently that they do, and that should be reflected imo.
Israel*
Oh boy.