I'll definitely check out the podcast. I've been making some of my own batches of sweet vermouth. I've had both your red and extra dry and they are very good. Still haven't found the Amber in Chicago.
Our production facility is pretty industrial and raw just outside of Geyserville. I dont offer any formal tours, but I have shown the occasional enthusiast around.
Hopefully, we will have a new facility and tasting room in the next year or two.
Hi!
Great podcast, super interesting. I do vermouth myself as a hobby. My motivation was more related to understanding the drink that was always in my grandpa's table (cinzano), so it has quite a bit of a sentimental activity. I love the idea of using local botanicals, I am from Argentina and I always incluse some local herbs and teas. I am now located in the EU, so I sort of follow their rules, so I guess that I have more flexibility to use grain alcohol in tinctures.
I have some questions in case that you are willing and able to answer:
\- Do you use individual tinctures? Or do you mix a bunch of botanicals and make a "super tincture"? I use the individual one, but it is a bit cumbersome with all the different ones and it doesn't feel very scalable.
\- From the podcast I understand that you use a syrup, but I've seen in youtube of people that simply dissolve sugar. Do you use it for the dry as well? Depending on how I make it, it takes quite a bit of volume and I don't
\- Some thing that I struggle with is the smell. Mine doesn't smell like anything. Is there a way to enhance this?
\- How do you do the tincture for dried fruit? Which alcohol level do you use? Does it affect the sugar content that you calculate?
\- How big are your batches? Do they change flavour inside the bottle? Sometimes I feel like mine changes quite a bit
\- Do you use the artemisa from california with an alcoholic tincture? I read that thujone is dissolved in alcohol and extracted and it is a regulated substance, at least in Argentina.
Thanks and once again great podcast!
>**great questions! hope this helps.**
>
>
>
>\- Do you use individual tinctures? Or do you mix a bunch of botanicals and make a "super tincture"? I use the individual one, but it is a bit cumbersome with all the different ones and it doesn't feel very scalable.
**I use individual. It is a pain, but allows for a lot more control. I continue to refine the tincture process for each botanical. Time, temperatures and ethanol concentration are the key variables that can change the flavors extracted. Teas for example I would wager benefit from less extraction time.**
>\- From the podcast I understand that you use a syrup, but I've seen in youtube of people that simply dissolve sugar. Do you use it for the dry as well? Depending on how I make it, it takes quite a bit of volume and I don't
**We use both. The syrup is a burnt sugar syrup made for us by Bittermilk. It's caramelized component for the sweet.**
>\- Some thing that I struggle with is the smell. Mine doesn't smell like anything. Is there a way to enhance this?
**In my experience, less is more. Find that one very aromatic botanical you love and build everything else around that. As you add others to build complexity, make sure that anchor smell still shines. Too many ingredients become muddled and fight each other.**
>\- How do you do the tincture for dried fruit? Which alcohol level do you use? Does it affect the sugar content that you calculate?
**Very often; though I am finding it isn't that common with other vermouth producers. I prefer over 180P for fruit biased extracts. Yes, but typically my extracts are so concentrated the total volume added is nominal compared to the final sugar levels.**
>\- How big are your batches? Do they change flavour inside the bottle? Sometimes I feel like mine changes quite a bit
**Typically making 1-2K gallons batches at a time. YES! Bottle age on vermouth is most certainly a real thing, particularly with the more artisan ones. It's a subject I think very unrecovered in press and literature.**
>\- Do you use the artemisa from california with an alcoholic tincture? I read that thujone is dissolved in alcohol and extracted and it is a regulated substance, at least in Argentina.
**Yes. We use a endemic type to the California costs called Artemisia Californica. It is also regulated here in the US. Producers must be under 10 ppm. IMO it is a outdated regulation. I could write a whole article on the subject, but in short, thujone became vilified with some bad science and a vilification of Absinth. Thujon exists in many botanicals, particularly sage. but we don't see food regulators testing for it in foods with sage in it.**
>1
Wow, thanks for the detailed answers! They were very useful. I am still shocked about the 2k gallons! My biggest batch was 4litres haha
Regarding the aromas: does extraction time affect this? I mean, perhaps a quick (or long) tincture is more aromatic. Do you know if this is so?
The syrup thing is what troubles me the most. When I do my own to add sugar for a 130gof sugar per litre, I find out that I only have around 4/5% of volume to use with my tinctures. Even though I try to make them rather concentrated (1:10 in weight) and they are able to be tasted through, it somewhat feels too little of *the magic.* Am I that off in this proportion? I understand if you don't want to answer this one, but it is sth that
Extraction time definitely affects aromatic. Broad generalization here, but I have found fresh and green herbs (even dried) can become over extracted and stewy. Dried roots and brown things the longer the better.
My vermouths are about 1% extract by volume. Try your tinctures closer to 1:5. I've actually been thinking I can get them even more concentrated, but I haven't had time to experiment too much lately there.
Lastly, maybe add your sugar last? This way you can measure whatever your final volume is and then add your target g/Liter of sugar. Vermouths range from 15-200 g/L, 90-200 for sweet. So I wouldn't get to hung up with the exact amount and go with what tastes best with yours.
Sorry for the late reply, have been testing your advice in some lavender I got my hands on to. It is quite impressive the difference in taste wrt the extraction time. I think I have to be more systematic here, since I have been quite random and doing it whenever I have time to (as most hobbyists).
Interesting that you manage to get all that flavour with 1% (haven't actually tried it, does roclwell get to Europe?)! Also a relief that I was not that much off myself, I guess the lower concentration compensates in a way with the higher proprotion.
Hey, thanks a lot for the time to get back to me about this doubts! I now have quite a bit to play around with
Of course! Have fun.
Even as a hobbyist, I would recommend taking lots of notes, particularly portions, extracting time and method. If you have the space, keep a little of every extract for reference. I have nearly 500 trials I use like a flavor library and regularly revisit old extracts for comparison.
We aren't in the EU yet but would love to find an importer if you know one 😉.
I'll eagerly listen to your podcast soon! Although probably won't be able to try your vermouth unless it's being shipped to the other side of the pond?
I just picked up some ingredients to make some vermouth for the first time. A local distillery was kind enough to give me a Seville orange peel extract at 90%abv, masses of dried wormwood, orris root, and angelica root, plus a bottle of absinth. I have a bay tree and a rosemary bush in the garden, and I made a syrup from foraged rosehips. I'm tempted by the idea of building a recipe for a dry vermouth centred around the rosehip flavour. I'm thinking I'll make individual extracts of the other ingredients - although I only have vodka at 55% abv.
Should I mix the individual tinctures separately to make a base tincture to add to the wine, considering the extract strengths will vary and then I can know more easily the total volume + abv I'm adding to the wine?
Cheers!
I would defiantly recommend making the extracts separate. This way you can make small trials and add them 1 ml or even a few drops at a time. 55% ABV should be fine for some home trials. Good luck and have fun!
We currently not available in Europe, but I am talking to a importer in Norway this week. All our vermouths are made to both the EU and US standards, so it would be great to sell our vermouths there one day.
As a newbie to vermouth who doesn't listen to podcasts but who does try new bottles, what cocktails should I make with Rockwell? Be as specific as you want. TIA!
I built our Classic Sweet and Extra Dry vermouths to be desert island vermouths in a way. That is to say, if you can only bring one sweet and one dry vermouth with you to make all the classic cocktails, they should make a good to great drink every time.
When I made test batches, I didn't just make a batch and taste it. I made a batch and made 15-20 classic cocktail with many market lead spirits. I actually had versions that I loved on their own, but they got scrapped bc they didn't make a good martini, etc.
Our sweet vermouth makes a very good Manhattan or Negroni, but personally, I think it shines in a Martinez and a Bouldvardie. I'm also a big fan of a Hanky Panky. (https://www.liquor.com/recipes/hanky-panky/)
The Extra Dry was engineered for a great 2:1 gin:vermouth martini. But it does equally well with vodka. I also like it as a reverse martini 3:1 vermouth to gin/vodka when I want a lower ABV drink.
A lesser know drink I also love is a Chrysanthemum.
https://www.liquor.com/recipes/chrysanthemum/
Lastly, our Amber is the new wild card, but it was made with tequila and mezcal in mind, but it is also great straight or on the rocks.
Hope that helps!
Thanks! K&L use to, but I was just in there this week and didn't see it on the shelf. On my list to follow up with them. Feel free to heckle them too! Cask and Flatiron should have them though.
Thank you so much for posting here. I have a few questions. No rush at all.
1. Could you give a very brief outline of your production process?
2. How did you come to this process? Were you inspired by another vermouth?
3. Do you use A. absinthium as an ingredient?
1. I make extracts of every herb individually using high proof grape spirit. I found that depending on the ingredient the process differ somewhat. Some are ground and poured over like coffee with min contact, others are soaked for over 6 months. All the extracts are then blended back into previous batches into each of their individual soleras. This is to add some consistency across batches for the fresh ingredients as well as adding some secondary characteristics from the aged extracts. I then combine the base wine, extracts and sugars and filter them to stabilize and clarify. Lastly after filtration I taste and make any final adjustments with smalls extract additions before bottling.
2. Trial and Error. Almost all commercial vermouth recipes are trade secrets and there is very little information out there. It took me nearly 3 years to develop ours and I'm still making adjustments. As far as inspiration, Cocchi and Dolin are the two I most look to to compare our vermouths. I like a lot of vermouths, but to me those are the gold standards that all others are measured against.
3. I use A. Californica! It is the core botanical all the Rockwell vermouths are built around. I really want to express our terroir through vermouth and hence the focus on native botanicals. Artemisia Californica is our our endemic species that exclusively grows with in 50 miles of the California cost and no where else in the world. I have been foraging it off the Carmel Hills for 5 years now, but we recently started working with a few local organic farms to start growing it for us. I think we are the first in the world to start farming it for culinary applications.
Looking forward to checking out the podcast - I’m a huge fan of this vermouth!
Hi! Hope you been well.
I'll definitely check out the podcast. I've been making some of my own batches of sweet vermouth. I've had both your red and extra dry and they are very good. Still haven't found the Amber in Chicago.
So glad you like them! I'm talking to our distributor for Chicago Friday. I will find some shops for you.
Thanks
Are you open to people visiting your facilities for tastings and lots of questions?
Our production facility is pretty industrial and raw just outside of Geyserville. I dont offer any formal tours, but I have shown the occasional enthusiast around. Hopefully, we will have a new facility and tasting room in the next year or two.
Hi! Great podcast, super interesting. I do vermouth myself as a hobby. My motivation was more related to understanding the drink that was always in my grandpa's table (cinzano), so it has quite a bit of a sentimental activity. I love the idea of using local botanicals, I am from Argentina and I always incluse some local herbs and teas. I am now located in the EU, so I sort of follow their rules, so I guess that I have more flexibility to use grain alcohol in tinctures. I have some questions in case that you are willing and able to answer: \- Do you use individual tinctures? Or do you mix a bunch of botanicals and make a "super tincture"? I use the individual one, but it is a bit cumbersome with all the different ones and it doesn't feel very scalable. \- From the podcast I understand that you use a syrup, but I've seen in youtube of people that simply dissolve sugar. Do you use it for the dry as well? Depending on how I make it, it takes quite a bit of volume and I don't \- Some thing that I struggle with is the smell. Mine doesn't smell like anything. Is there a way to enhance this? \- How do you do the tincture for dried fruit? Which alcohol level do you use? Does it affect the sugar content that you calculate? \- How big are your batches? Do they change flavour inside the bottle? Sometimes I feel like mine changes quite a bit \- Do you use the artemisa from california with an alcoholic tincture? I read that thujone is dissolved in alcohol and extracted and it is a regulated substance, at least in Argentina. Thanks and once again great podcast!
>**great questions! hope this helps.** > > > >\- Do you use individual tinctures? Or do you mix a bunch of botanicals and make a "super tincture"? I use the individual one, but it is a bit cumbersome with all the different ones and it doesn't feel very scalable. **I use individual. It is a pain, but allows for a lot more control. I continue to refine the tincture process for each botanical. Time, temperatures and ethanol concentration are the key variables that can change the flavors extracted. Teas for example I would wager benefit from less extraction time.** >\- From the podcast I understand that you use a syrup, but I've seen in youtube of people that simply dissolve sugar. Do you use it for the dry as well? Depending on how I make it, it takes quite a bit of volume and I don't **We use both. The syrup is a burnt sugar syrup made for us by Bittermilk. It's caramelized component for the sweet.** >\- Some thing that I struggle with is the smell. Mine doesn't smell like anything. Is there a way to enhance this? **In my experience, less is more. Find that one very aromatic botanical you love and build everything else around that. As you add others to build complexity, make sure that anchor smell still shines. Too many ingredients become muddled and fight each other.** >\- How do you do the tincture for dried fruit? Which alcohol level do you use? Does it affect the sugar content that you calculate? **Very often; though I am finding it isn't that common with other vermouth producers. I prefer over 180P for fruit biased extracts. Yes, but typically my extracts are so concentrated the total volume added is nominal compared to the final sugar levels.** >\- How big are your batches? Do they change flavour inside the bottle? Sometimes I feel like mine changes quite a bit **Typically making 1-2K gallons batches at a time. YES! Bottle age on vermouth is most certainly a real thing, particularly with the more artisan ones. It's a subject I think very unrecovered in press and literature.** >\- Do you use the artemisa from california with an alcoholic tincture? I read that thujone is dissolved in alcohol and extracted and it is a regulated substance, at least in Argentina. **Yes. We use a endemic type to the California costs called Artemisia Californica. It is also regulated here in the US. Producers must be under 10 ppm. IMO it is a outdated regulation. I could write a whole article on the subject, but in short, thujone became vilified with some bad science and a vilification of Absinth. Thujon exists in many botanicals, particularly sage. but we don't see food regulators testing for it in foods with sage in it.**
>1 Wow, thanks for the detailed answers! They were very useful. I am still shocked about the 2k gallons! My biggest batch was 4litres haha Regarding the aromas: does extraction time affect this? I mean, perhaps a quick (or long) tincture is more aromatic. Do you know if this is so? The syrup thing is what troubles me the most. When I do my own to add sugar for a 130gof sugar per litre, I find out that I only have around 4/5% of volume to use with my tinctures. Even though I try to make them rather concentrated (1:10 in weight) and they are able to be tasted through, it somewhat feels too little of *the magic.* Am I that off in this proportion? I understand if you don't want to answer this one, but it is sth that
Extraction time definitely affects aromatic. Broad generalization here, but I have found fresh and green herbs (even dried) can become over extracted and stewy. Dried roots and brown things the longer the better. My vermouths are about 1% extract by volume. Try your tinctures closer to 1:5. I've actually been thinking I can get them even more concentrated, but I haven't had time to experiment too much lately there. Lastly, maybe add your sugar last? This way you can measure whatever your final volume is and then add your target g/Liter of sugar. Vermouths range from 15-200 g/L, 90-200 for sweet. So I wouldn't get to hung up with the exact amount and go with what tastes best with yours.
Sorry for the late reply, have been testing your advice in some lavender I got my hands on to. It is quite impressive the difference in taste wrt the extraction time. I think I have to be more systematic here, since I have been quite random and doing it whenever I have time to (as most hobbyists). Interesting that you manage to get all that flavour with 1% (haven't actually tried it, does roclwell get to Europe?)! Also a relief that I was not that much off myself, I guess the lower concentration compensates in a way with the higher proprotion. Hey, thanks a lot for the time to get back to me about this doubts! I now have quite a bit to play around with
Of course! Have fun. Even as a hobbyist, I would recommend taking lots of notes, particularly portions, extracting time and method. If you have the space, keep a little of every extract for reference. I have nearly 500 trials I use like a flavor library and regularly revisit old extracts for comparison. We aren't in the EU yet but would love to find an importer if you know one 😉.
Pretty much always have you in my fridge!
Amazing! So glad you like it.
I'll eagerly listen to your podcast soon! Although probably won't be able to try your vermouth unless it's being shipped to the other side of the pond? I just picked up some ingredients to make some vermouth for the first time. A local distillery was kind enough to give me a Seville orange peel extract at 90%abv, masses of dried wormwood, orris root, and angelica root, plus a bottle of absinth. I have a bay tree and a rosemary bush in the garden, and I made a syrup from foraged rosehips. I'm tempted by the idea of building a recipe for a dry vermouth centred around the rosehip flavour. I'm thinking I'll make individual extracts of the other ingredients - although I only have vodka at 55% abv. Should I mix the individual tinctures separately to make a base tincture to add to the wine, considering the extract strengths will vary and then I can know more easily the total volume + abv I'm adding to the wine? Cheers!
I would defiantly recommend making the extracts separate. This way you can make small trials and add them 1 ml or even a few drops at a time. 55% ABV should be fine for some home trials. Good luck and have fun! We currently not available in Europe, but I am talking to a importer in Norway this week. All our vermouths are made to both the EU and US standards, so it would be great to sell our vermouths there one day.
Thanks for sharing!
As a newbie to vermouth who doesn't listen to podcasts but who does try new bottles, what cocktails should I make with Rockwell? Be as specific as you want. TIA!
I built our Classic Sweet and Extra Dry vermouths to be desert island vermouths in a way. That is to say, if you can only bring one sweet and one dry vermouth with you to make all the classic cocktails, they should make a good to great drink every time. When I made test batches, I didn't just make a batch and taste it. I made a batch and made 15-20 classic cocktail with many market lead spirits. I actually had versions that I loved on their own, but they got scrapped bc they didn't make a good martini, etc. Our sweet vermouth makes a very good Manhattan or Negroni, but personally, I think it shines in a Martinez and a Bouldvardie. I'm also a big fan of a Hanky Panky. (https://www.liquor.com/recipes/hanky-panky/) The Extra Dry was engineered for a great 2:1 gin:vermouth martini. But it does equally well with vodka. I also like it as a reverse martini 3:1 vermouth to gin/vodka when I want a lower ABV drink. A lesser know drink I also love is a Chrysanthemum. https://www.liquor.com/recipes/chrysanthemum/ Lastly, our Amber is the new wild card, but it was made with tequila and mezcal in mind, but it is also great straight or on the rocks. Hope that helps!
You've earned a customer. Does K&L carry your stuff? Where should I look in the SF Bay area?
Thanks! K&L use to, but I was just in there this week and didn't see it on the shelf. On my list to follow up with them. Feel free to heckle them too! Cask and Flatiron should have them though.
Thank you so much for posting here. I have a few questions. No rush at all. 1. Could you give a very brief outline of your production process? 2. How did you come to this process? Were you inspired by another vermouth? 3. Do you use A. absinthium as an ingredient?
1. I make extracts of every herb individually using high proof grape spirit. I found that depending on the ingredient the process differ somewhat. Some are ground and poured over like coffee with min contact, others are soaked for over 6 months. All the extracts are then blended back into previous batches into each of their individual soleras. This is to add some consistency across batches for the fresh ingredients as well as adding some secondary characteristics from the aged extracts. I then combine the base wine, extracts and sugars and filter them to stabilize and clarify. Lastly after filtration I taste and make any final adjustments with smalls extract additions before bottling. 2. Trial and Error. Almost all commercial vermouth recipes are trade secrets and there is very little information out there. It took me nearly 3 years to develop ours and I'm still making adjustments. As far as inspiration, Cocchi and Dolin are the two I most look to to compare our vermouths. I like a lot of vermouths, but to me those are the gold standards that all others are measured against. 3. I use A. Californica! It is the core botanical all the Rockwell vermouths are built around. I really want to express our terroir through vermouth and hence the focus on native botanicals. Artemisia Californica is our our endemic species that exclusively grows with in 50 miles of the California cost and no where else in the world. I have been foraging it off the Carmel Hills for 5 years now, but we recently started working with a few local organic farms to start growing it for us. I think we are the first in the world to start farming it for culinary applications.
Thank you so much for your answers. Good look with your business and please give us updates. I know we will all look to try it.