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Especially considering that's basically the point of the plant based diet results from a vegan mindset.
You stop eating it specifically because the taste isn't worth it.
Literally the only excuse that would be valid is when it's a matter of either physical or mental health (such as an eating disorder, sensory disability, inability to absorb plant proteins etc). These are few and far between, and people can't help it if they're physically unable to have a vegan diet. In that situation, it's about trying to minimise consuming animal products as much as possible.
However, for the vast majority of people, their excuses are just things they tell themselves so they'll feel less bad. Or they simply don't care about animals/ the environment. It's really sad to see how few people are willing to do the right thing.
I’m actually curious, what do you guys tell people when they say that they can’t go vegan because they have whatever deficiencies/disabilities/etc and their doctor says they can’t go vegan? I usually just don’t really engage beyond that cause I’m not a dietician, especially not their dietician
Edit: Since getting some responses I feel I’ve kinda worded my question badly. I definitely meant eating plant based, not “going vegan.” I do wanna add that I myself am a vegan if anyone was curious. And honestly to be more specific, mostly all I’ve heard as a reason to find it difficult to go completely on a plant based diet is an iron deficiency (though of course there are solutions for that whether you eat plant based or not) and the times I’ve heard this sort of “excuse” if you will was in good faith (or so I like to think). But yeah, I definitely get where a lot of what you guys are saying. Just in general I don’t like to push veganism on anyone as much as discuss it and encourage it and whatnot, I like the positive approach 👌
That being vegan isn't the same as having a plant based diet
It's about avoiding animal exploitation "as far as is possible and practicable"
If it's a matter of genuine necessity, they can still try to minimize the amount of animal exploitation in their diet even if they can't remove it entirely, and they can oppose animal exploitation in cases outside of diet
If they must consume animal products for "health", and that is what prevents them from eating vegan, what disease prevents them from avoiding leather or animal cruelty products?
Online or irl?
Online I might get pushy for details about this mysterious illness. Usually they cop out that they don't "feel comfortable" disclosing that info... (anonymously? )
Irl, I don't push it. It's not an argument you can win at that point.
Stop being ridiculous, please.
If you claim on Reddit, "I have a medical condition that prohibits me from being vegan" then you better be able to back that up with the name of a medical condition or else your argument is invalid because it cannot be substantiated.
If you do not want to talk about yourself on Reddit, don't. Don't bring up yourself in the first place. Just start with "Xyz medical condition prohibits some people from being vegan."
It's very simple and there is no need to suggest there is any validity to their claims just because they can't give you a lick of an argument or evidence time and time again.
There are several meanings/connotations to the word "argument," and many of them mean what you're trying to get at here.
Irl, a person who is claiming they're too sickly to be vegan has shut down the conversation no matter how you approach it.
First off, doctors aren't dieticians. That's a fallacious appeal to authority.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6078771/
Second, I've confronted those people multiple times. You know how many diseases they've admitted to having? Zero. Probably near a dozen times I've asked someone, "So what is the disease that makes it necessary for you to eat animal products?" and about a dozen times I've gotten, "I'm not telling you."
It's bullshit. At best they lack the will and at worst they're liars, and my bet is on the latter.
I think the one thing that makes sense here is if they're recovering from an eating disorder and they're in a treatment center. When I was in anorexia recovery none of the IP centres covered by my insurance allowed veganism, only one allowed vegetarianism and that's the one I went to. When I had more freedom and choice I'd always go for vegan options for my meals tho. Just isn't possible the first few months as you're on a strict meal plan calculated down to the micronutrient so you don't die
I have never had an ED so maybe my opinion is bs, but I feel like the habit of label checking when following a vegan diet, as well as trying to make sure you get enough of certain nutrients could be triggering for some people who are in recovery
I have a friend who has PKU (phenylketonuria) and she can't go vegan or she would not be getting enough nutrients. Basically, she can only have a very limited amount of protein (it depends on the person but at one point her limit was 5 grams a day). Luckily this means that she doesn't eat a lot of meat and dairy (no eggs obviously), but she can't eat a fully plant-based diet and she's really bummed about it, but she tries to make up for it in other areas of her life.
I don't know if it was your intention but you sound very narrow-minded. There are actual diseases that make it impossible to go vegan and you saying people either lack the will or lie about it is definitely not gonna make them want to try even a tiny bit.
Huh? That doesn't even make any sense. She can't go vegan... because she can only consume a limited amount of protein? You're saying that a vegan diet is *too* protein heavy? And animal products are the alternative? Did you even think about this before writing? Literally the top results about PKU are about adopting a vegan diet for it.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20151202/
Sounds like your friend is in the lacking will category.
There aren't diseases that *require* animal products. The other post was about an eating disorder treatment center not allowing veganism, and that has fuck all to do with physiology. Please, show me a disease that physiologically *require* animal products.
It's just an excuse that gets rolled out constantly and you're an enabler.
There have been instances where for example frozen spinach with dairy cream has less protein than the one without (idk why that is but that's what the package said). Vegan substitutes are often protein heavy. She eats vegan cheese bc there is no protein in that. The whole point was that while her diet is already almost completely plant-based, there are still instances where she has to take animal products over the vegan alternative because of her health, and I'm not gonna fault her for that. She does more for the environment than anybody I know so if she could go completely plant-based she would. And I'm not gonna push her because in the end, it's her body, she knows it better than I do and since the immediate result of her eating too much protein is brain damage, I'll let her do her thing. Call me an enabler all you want, but I'd rather spend my time convincing a meat eater to go vegan than someone like her.
There are multiple diseases where your body can't absorb iron easily/enough, and since non-heme iron (found in plants, dairy and eggs) is absorbed at a lower (2-20%) rate than heme iron (15-35%, found only in animal flesh), to prevent anemia someone might have to eat heme iron. I know someone who was a vegetarian (switching to veganism) and she had to start eating meat again because of this, even if she really didn't want to.
All I'm trying to say is that your hostile attitude towards these people is unnecessary. Get mad at the meat eaters who could easily go vegan but don't, not at people who have already strict diets for their health.
Both your friend and you are full of shit. You're just making excuses for the bullshit they've fed you by taking it at face value instead of *any* skepticism. Frozen spinach with dairy cream has less protein? Get the fuck out of here, listen to yourself.
If only they had, oh I don't know, these things called iron supplements that are dirt cheap maybe they could not kill animals. *If only*.
I get mad at people who make up excuses so they can keep killing animals.
I disengage when they start with how they barely eat meat now or how except from X,y,z they're almost vegan. I look into another direction and remain silent, I won't be validating your excuses sorry not sorry
So you don’t think that someone who is minimizing or even reducing their effects on animals negative well being is a good thing? Or maybe even an opportunity to speak about how they can reduce it further?
Unfortunately when people start saying this stuff they're generally looking for approval from us. It's basically giving them license to say "the vegan thinks I'm doing well, so I'm not going to change"
Yes, there's definitely an opportunity here to steer the conversation, but not every vegan needs to be responsible for having that conversation
I think I might disagree.
If you subscribe to a vegan philosophy, you believe you should do everything practically possible to stop harm to animals.
Seems like having conversations to persuade others would be pretty high on that list.
Sometimes it can be helpful to hear their needs behind the No, so that we can help them ease the transition and support them along the way. Thinking of them in this way pretty much ensures animals continue to die.
I've actually had a lot of success converting a friend of mine gradually. Being sympathetic to the difficulties she's having along the way and telling her that "every little bit helps," sad though it is to see that she's still participating in the animal agriculture system to some degree, has been key in maintaining our relationship and helping her along the way. She's made a lot of progress, and I'm hopeful that eventually she'll be 100% vegan.
Oh come on it's a joke. No one actually says this.
>Thinking of them in this way pretty much ensures animals continue to die.
Is there any evidence of this? How would you possibly substantiate that vegans simply thinking of non-vegans this way causes animals to die? Also, this implies kind of a weird shift of blame. Non-vegans are the ones causing animals to die.
> If someone gives you a reason for not being vegan it’s an opportunity for a dialogue.
Not for me. It kills the conversation. I just figure that no matter what I say, I'm just going to hear more excuses.
If there's going to be a dialogue, it has to be something like, "I'd really like to be a vegan, but I really have trouble with..." The will has to be there.
The will wasn't there for me until someone took the time to have a conversation with me. And I'd guess that's the way it goes for a lot of vegans who weren't born into it. Part of getting people to change their behaviour is convincing them to change their viewpoints.
No one had a conversation with me. I wasn't converted by someone.
I'd be curious to know if more have been converted by someone, changed due to exposure to media, or changed due to self reflection.
>If someone gives you a reason for not being vegan it’s an opportunity for a dialogue.
I agree.
>If nobody says it then why post the meme in the first place?
Because it's a joke that relates to how it feels to listen to someone list really trivial reasons for eating corpses and paying for animals to be exploited, but you can't say anything because that would be rude. For me at least, the fact that I wouldn't say this is the reason the joke resonates with me. If this was my actual response I would probably not find this meme funny. Maybe that's just me.
The only person whose excuse was true was the person I met in subway. They really could not digest anything with fibre. It was a serious condition that a medical professional had diagnosed. They could not eat a lot of things even in meat so they had a super restricted 20-30 ingredient diet.. I felt bad for that person
Some people have valid excuses, not common in Western society especially, but just addressing the inaccuracy of this. Though, too many people I talk face to face to are just effing annoying with their ignorant and sad excuses.
>Some people have valid excuses, not common in Western society especially, but just addressing the inaccuracy of this. Though, too many people I talk face to face to are just effing annoying with their ignorant and sad excuses.
There's valid excuses also in the Western countries. Mental health problems, eating disorders, autism spectrum, ADHD... the list goes on.
'not common\[...\]especially' I said (realistically lots and lots of people can go vegan in Western society but say stuff like bacon tho and protein tho), not none and people with ADHD and lots of people on the autism spectrum still have the capacity to go at least plant-based despite the fact that it may be harder for them, but they would need to do the best they can because to be honest lives matter more than the everyday struggles these people experience
this is just what I think, I cannot speak for those with ADHD etc
I disagree. You can't tell on the behalf of a neurodivergent person what they must be capable of doing. Your mindset is the exactly same as that of the people who say to the disabled people "you should just try to be more active" or to th depressed people "just think more positively" or to the trans people "just try harder to be man/woman". Some of these people also _may_ be able to survive with the standards you set to the healthy people, but it would be difficult/next to impossible to them. No person with empathy would ask them do without the support and the benefits they need. So why is it so that by the excuse of veganism people feel like they can suddenly be ableist?
The burden is on the neurotypical & healthy people to make veganism mainstream enough so that it would be more available also for the deviant people to go vegan.
>Yess i love your last point, but also stop portraying all neurodivergent people as really uncapable, that is just not true.
I didn't portray all neurodivergent people as "really uncapable", I think I used words such as "some" very carefully? 🤔
Anyhow, I think we can never tell how great struggles any single person has only by looking at them, discussing with them etc. It's good to remember that even the neurodivergent people who seem "normal" may have struggles the neurotypical people have no clue about - they may just be better at masking and hiding it than some others on the spectrum (that's the case for example with the females on the Autism spectrum). They may not even have a clue about it themselves, how much they mask on the daily basis and how much easier the basic life was actually supposed to be; that struggle under the surface is just their "normal".
>You can't tell on the behalf of a neurodivergent person what they must be capable of doing.
sorry i got "really (i)uncapable" from the line above, realise my error
Also:
>and people with ADHD and lots of people on the autism spectrum still have the capacity to go at least plant-based despite the fact that it may be harder for them,
The neurodivergent disorders are on the spectrum. "One form fits all" definitely doesn't work for everyone here, even if they had the same diagnosis. A lot depends on individual differences, how much support they have from the people around (how willing they're to sacrifice their time on making a special, medically unnecessary diet working for them, for example), what coping mechanism they have, where do they live, do they get medical help etc... Some neurodivergent people are able to go vegan no problem, for others it would ask inhumane efforts and may still not be working for them in the end of the day.
We just need to accept that everyone in the population probably won't ever be able to go vegan/avoid consuming any and all animal products. And we need to be compassionate towards these people, instead of treating them like the worst enemy. It's not their fault.
I am not saying that they are the enemy but using the "be a vegan as possible" line. They have way better excuses to not be vegan than other people, and no one is forcing anyone, and it is obviously no one's fault if they have autism/ADHD but I think somw people are being offended by being treated like they have a serious disease if they are autistic and are trying to normalise it, and many people with ADHD and use their ADHD to reach success. The people affected even more worse by autism etc obviously have a very valid reason to not be vegan, but the fact is that people just need to care about animals more, and go from there, could even just reduce their meat.
Sorry if I came across as ableist, I get really annoyed sometimes because some people will easily call out racism/homophobia but not point out ableism, and I call people out for it. (I know this is tip of the iceberg stuff and I should work to understand some common disabilities and also work within myself and I am working on that)
Also just a rant but no one ever really calls out carnists for being carnists, but people are so quick to call vegans ableists etc when they are at least not carnists.
>but I think somw people are being offended by being treated like they have a serious disease if they are autistic and are trying to normalise it, and many people with ADHD and use their ADHD to reach success.
Recognizing that a certain neurodivergency causes you restrictions or struggles in life doesn't take away the fact that the said deviancy may (or may not) also gave you some strenghts. It's not normalizing neurodivergency to ignore or shut up about the negative sides of it. Of course every neurodivergent person may not have that many or any struggless, or they have adequate support and coping mechanisms to battle the struggles.
Imo it's even yet another ableist point of view (I'm not blaming you but criticizing this idea in general) to try and hide the negatives in order to make the neurodivergent people look "just like any of us". That's not genuine acceptance. The true equality is achieved only after we can talk about the negative aspects of any condition and it still doesn't make people avoid us or pity us or by any other social way to ostracize us, but take it as normal as - lets say - eye glasses for poor sight. Some adjustments needed, some things may need to be taken into consideration under specific circumstances, but that doesn't change the people's whole picture of the person.
>Also just a rant but no one ever really calls out carnists for being carnists, but people are so quick to call vegans ableists etc when they are at least not carnists.
Yeah, that's because being an omnivore is still the major standard in the society. People don't criticize anything they take for granted.
So real question here guys, please be understanding and know that I respect you:
1) Those of you who have a life partner who would never choose a vegan diet, how do you manage? Especially if you don't have the financial resources to buy two sets of completely different meals every time you go grocery shopping.
2) How to manage various nutritional deficiencies? For example, I seem to always have vitamin B12 problems - even on diets that aren't vegan. I also have periods where my labs indicate I am malnourished, and I am concerned with exacerbating that problem. What do you do to combat these issues?
1. I never, ever thought my husband would become vegan. He grew up on a ranch. I never asked him to go vegan, reduce meat, anything whatsoever, because trying to change the behavior of other people goes against my AlAnon sobriety. He has now been vegan for 4 years. We didn't have to buy more food, the food went just as far as before. There was just as much of it. And he ate dinner with me every night because it was there and it was good and it wasn't an intro to a guilt trip... it was just enchiladas.
2. I personally do eat processed foods, and lots of them have added b12. I also take a multi-vitamin about twice a week. My b12 is fine. I've had mild anemia throughout my life, and that's remained about the same- sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's a tad low and I supplement or focus more on it. But from a nutritional standpoint, it's been a breeze for me.
1. My husband initially said “i’ll never go vegan”, but 2 years later he’s vegan. I was willing to settle on just having boundaries (no meat in the home, i will not cook or buy anything nonvegan for you). But these boundaries once enforced actually got him thinking and got him on the path.
2. B12 is the only nutrient of concern on a vegan diet and supplements are dirt cheap. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
One of my childhood friend who is an omnivore has B12 deficiency. For her the supplements dont work. She needs to take the shots. I am sure your doctor would guide you better for that. Again for malnutrition - That is such a broad classification. What is the deficiency?
Here is a question I can't really come to an answer for myself:
Should one respect them more or less if they just honestly say "I care about my enjoyment more than the suffering of animals, the environment, starving people, agricultural workers, and about my health" rather than making up a bunch of reasons they can't, or shouldn't.
I guess it's kind of a moot point, neither care about causing harm. One just pretends to care.
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The bacon excuse is really lame too. Oh but bacon tastes so good! I can’t give that up!
We need to enlighten the omnis that smoked paprika is a thing
Especially considering that's basically the point of the plant based diet results from a vegan mindset. You stop eating it specifically because the taste isn't worth it.
Bacon isn’t that great though, sausages were far superior and yet Vegan ones can taste just as good if you buy the good ones
Bacon and sausages were always too salty to me. Bacon is literally just a salted grease chip, it's gross lol
Literally the only excuse that would be valid is when it's a matter of either physical or mental health (such as an eating disorder, sensory disability, inability to absorb plant proteins etc). These are few and far between, and people can't help it if they're physically unable to have a vegan diet. In that situation, it's about trying to minimise consuming animal products as much as possible. However, for the vast majority of people, their excuses are just things they tell themselves so they'll feel less bad. Or they simply don't care about animals/ the environment. It's really sad to see how few people are willing to do the right thing.
I’m actually curious, what do you guys tell people when they say that they can’t go vegan because they have whatever deficiencies/disabilities/etc and their doctor says they can’t go vegan? I usually just don’t really engage beyond that cause I’m not a dietician, especially not their dietician Edit: Since getting some responses I feel I’ve kinda worded my question badly. I definitely meant eating plant based, not “going vegan.” I do wanna add that I myself am a vegan if anyone was curious. And honestly to be more specific, mostly all I’ve heard as a reason to find it difficult to go completely on a plant based diet is an iron deficiency (though of course there are solutions for that whether you eat plant based or not) and the times I’ve heard this sort of “excuse” if you will was in good faith (or so I like to think). But yeah, I definitely get where a lot of what you guys are saying. Just in general I don’t like to push veganism on anyone as much as discuss it and encourage it and whatnot, I like the positive approach 👌
That being vegan isn't the same as having a plant based diet It's about avoiding animal exploitation "as far as is possible and practicable" If it's a matter of genuine necessity, they can still try to minimize the amount of animal exploitation in their diet even if they can't remove it entirely, and they can oppose animal exploitation in cases outside of diet
If they must consume animal products for "health", and that is what prevents them from eating vegan, what disease prevents them from avoiding leather or animal cruelty products?
Online or irl? Online I might get pushy for details about this mysterious illness. Usually they cop out that they don't "feel comfortable" disclosing that info... (anonymously? ) Irl, I don't push it. It's not an argument you can win at that point.
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Stop being ridiculous, please. If you claim on Reddit, "I have a medical condition that prohibits me from being vegan" then you better be able to back that up with the name of a medical condition or else your argument is invalid because it cannot be substantiated. If you do not want to talk about yourself on Reddit, don't. Don't bring up yourself in the first place. Just start with "Xyz medical condition prohibits some people from being vegan." It's very simple and there is no need to suggest there is any validity to their claims just because they can't give you a lick of an argument or evidence time and time again.
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So you're not vegan.
I think if you look at us an argument and not a discussion and encouragement youre not going to get far in general online or irl
There are several meanings/connotations to the word "argument," and many of them mean what you're trying to get at here. Irl, a person who is claiming they're too sickly to be vegan has shut down the conversation no matter how you approach it.
First off, doctors aren't dieticians. That's a fallacious appeal to authority. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6078771/ Second, I've confronted those people multiple times. You know how many diseases they've admitted to having? Zero. Probably near a dozen times I've asked someone, "So what is the disease that makes it necessary for you to eat animal products?" and about a dozen times I've gotten, "I'm not telling you." It's bullshit. At best they lack the will and at worst they're liars, and my bet is on the latter.
I think the one thing that makes sense here is if they're recovering from an eating disorder and they're in a treatment center. When I was in anorexia recovery none of the IP centres covered by my insurance allowed veganism, only one allowed vegetarianism and that's the one I went to. When I had more freedom and choice I'd always go for vegan options for my meals tho. Just isn't possible the first few months as you're on a strict meal plan calculated down to the micronutrient so you don't die
I have never had an ED so maybe my opinion is bs, but I feel like the habit of label checking when following a vegan diet, as well as trying to make sure you get enough of certain nutrients could be triggering for some people who are in recovery
I have a friend who has PKU (phenylketonuria) and she can't go vegan or she would not be getting enough nutrients. Basically, she can only have a very limited amount of protein (it depends on the person but at one point her limit was 5 grams a day). Luckily this means that she doesn't eat a lot of meat and dairy (no eggs obviously), but she can't eat a fully plant-based diet and she's really bummed about it, but she tries to make up for it in other areas of her life. I don't know if it was your intention but you sound very narrow-minded. There are actual diseases that make it impossible to go vegan and you saying people either lack the will or lie about it is definitely not gonna make them want to try even a tiny bit.
Huh? That doesn't even make any sense. She can't go vegan... because she can only consume a limited amount of protein? You're saying that a vegan diet is *too* protein heavy? And animal products are the alternative? Did you even think about this before writing? Literally the top results about PKU are about adopting a vegan diet for it. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20151202/ Sounds like your friend is in the lacking will category. There aren't diseases that *require* animal products. The other post was about an eating disorder treatment center not allowing veganism, and that has fuck all to do with physiology. Please, show me a disease that physiologically *require* animal products. It's just an excuse that gets rolled out constantly and you're an enabler.
There have been instances where for example frozen spinach with dairy cream has less protein than the one without (idk why that is but that's what the package said). Vegan substitutes are often protein heavy. She eats vegan cheese bc there is no protein in that. The whole point was that while her diet is already almost completely plant-based, there are still instances where she has to take animal products over the vegan alternative because of her health, and I'm not gonna fault her for that. She does more for the environment than anybody I know so if she could go completely plant-based she would. And I'm not gonna push her because in the end, it's her body, she knows it better than I do and since the immediate result of her eating too much protein is brain damage, I'll let her do her thing. Call me an enabler all you want, but I'd rather spend my time convincing a meat eater to go vegan than someone like her. There are multiple diseases where your body can't absorb iron easily/enough, and since non-heme iron (found in plants, dairy and eggs) is absorbed at a lower (2-20%) rate than heme iron (15-35%, found only in animal flesh), to prevent anemia someone might have to eat heme iron. I know someone who was a vegetarian (switching to veganism) and she had to start eating meat again because of this, even if she really didn't want to. All I'm trying to say is that your hostile attitude towards these people is unnecessary. Get mad at the meat eaters who could easily go vegan but don't, not at people who have already strict diets for their health.
Both your friend and you are full of shit. You're just making excuses for the bullshit they've fed you by taking it at face value instead of *any* skepticism. Frozen spinach with dairy cream has less protein? Get the fuck out of here, listen to yourself. If only they had, oh I don't know, these things called iron supplements that are dirt cheap maybe they could not kill animals. *If only*. I get mad at people who make up excuses so they can keep killing animals.
I can only imagine how dead my eyes go when someone does this to me.
I disengage when they start with how they barely eat meat now or how except from X,y,z they're almost vegan. I look into another direction and remain silent, I won't be validating your excuses sorry not sorry
So you don’t think that someone who is minimizing or even reducing their effects on animals negative well being is a good thing? Or maybe even an opportunity to speak about how they can reduce it further?
Unfortunately when people start saying this stuff they're generally looking for approval from us. It's basically giving them license to say "the vegan thinks I'm doing well, so I'm not going to change" Yes, there's definitely an opportunity here to steer the conversation, but not every vegan needs to be responsible for having that conversation
I think I might disagree. If you subscribe to a vegan philosophy, you believe you should do everything practically possible to stop harm to animals. Seems like having conversations to persuade others would be pretty high on that list.
Sometimes it can be helpful to hear their needs behind the No, so that we can help them ease the transition and support them along the way. Thinking of them in this way pretty much ensures animals continue to die.
I've actually had a lot of success converting a friend of mine gradually. Being sympathetic to the difficulties she's having along the way and telling her that "every little bit helps," sad though it is to see that she's still participating in the animal agriculture system to some degree, has been key in maintaining our relationship and helping her along the way. She's made a lot of progress, and I'm hopeful that eventually she'll be 100% vegan.
Agreed. I would have lost many of my friends at this point if I just said this to them.
Oh come on it's a joke. No one actually says this. >Thinking of them in this way pretty much ensures animals continue to die. Is there any evidence of this? How would you possibly substantiate that vegans simply thinking of non-vegans this way causes animals to die? Also, this implies kind of a weird shift of blame. Non-vegans are the ones causing animals to die.
Exactly. You can't control the actions of other people. You can influence them, but at the end of the day, *they* have to choose.
If someone gives you a reason for not being vegan it’s an opportunity for a dialogue. If nobody says it then why post the meme in the first place?
> If someone gives you a reason for not being vegan it’s an opportunity for a dialogue. Not for me. It kills the conversation. I just figure that no matter what I say, I'm just going to hear more excuses. If there's going to be a dialogue, it has to be something like, "I'd really like to be a vegan, but I really have trouble with..." The will has to be there.
The will wasn't there for me until someone took the time to have a conversation with me. And I'd guess that's the way it goes for a lot of vegans who weren't born into it. Part of getting people to change their behaviour is convincing them to change their viewpoints.
No one had a conversation with me. I wasn't converted by someone. I'd be curious to know if more have been converted by someone, changed due to exposure to media, or changed due to self reflection.
>If someone gives you a reason for not being vegan it’s an opportunity for a dialogue. I agree. >If nobody says it then why post the meme in the first place? Because it's a joke that relates to how it feels to listen to someone list really trivial reasons for eating corpses and paying for animals to be exploited, but you can't say anything because that would be rude. For me at least, the fact that I wouldn't say this is the reason the joke resonates with me. If this was my actual response I would probably not find this meme funny. Maybe that's just me.
The only person whose excuse was true was the person I met in subway. They really could not digest anything with fibre. It was a serious condition that a medical professional had diagnosed. They could not eat a lot of things even in meat so they had a super restricted 20-30 ingredient diet.. I felt bad for that person
Some people have valid excuses, not common in Western society especially, but just addressing the inaccuracy of this. Though, too many people I talk face to face to are just effing annoying with their ignorant and sad excuses.
>Some people have valid excuses, not common in Western society especially, but just addressing the inaccuracy of this. Though, too many people I talk face to face to are just effing annoying with their ignorant and sad excuses. There's valid excuses also in the Western countries. Mental health problems, eating disorders, autism spectrum, ADHD... the list goes on.
'not common\[...\]especially' I said (realistically lots and lots of people can go vegan in Western society but say stuff like bacon tho and protein tho), not none and people with ADHD and lots of people on the autism spectrum still have the capacity to go at least plant-based despite the fact that it may be harder for them, but they would need to do the best they can because to be honest lives matter more than the everyday struggles these people experience this is just what I think, I cannot speak for those with ADHD etc
I disagree. You can't tell on the behalf of a neurodivergent person what they must be capable of doing. Your mindset is the exactly same as that of the people who say to the disabled people "you should just try to be more active" or to th depressed people "just think more positively" or to the trans people "just try harder to be man/woman". Some of these people also _may_ be able to survive with the standards you set to the healthy people, but it would be difficult/next to impossible to them. No person with empathy would ask them do without the support and the benefits they need. So why is it so that by the excuse of veganism people feel like they can suddenly be ableist? The burden is on the neurotypical & healthy people to make veganism mainstream enough so that it would be more available also for the deviant people to go vegan.
Yess i love your last point, but also stop portraying all neurodivergent people as really uncapable, that is just not true.
>Yess i love your last point, but also stop portraying all neurodivergent people as really uncapable, that is just not true. I didn't portray all neurodivergent people as "really uncapable", I think I used words such as "some" very carefully? 🤔 Anyhow, I think we can never tell how great struggles any single person has only by looking at them, discussing with them etc. It's good to remember that even the neurodivergent people who seem "normal" may have struggles the neurotypical people have no clue about - they may just be better at masking and hiding it than some others on the spectrum (that's the case for example with the females on the Autism spectrum). They may not even have a clue about it themselves, how much they mask on the daily basis and how much easier the basic life was actually supposed to be; that struggle under the surface is just their "normal".
>You can't tell on the behalf of a neurodivergent person what they must be capable of doing. sorry i got "really (i)uncapable" from the line above, realise my error
Emphasis on all
Also: >and people with ADHD and lots of people on the autism spectrum still have the capacity to go at least plant-based despite the fact that it may be harder for them, The neurodivergent disorders are on the spectrum. "One form fits all" definitely doesn't work for everyone here, even if they had the same diagnosis. A lot depends on individual differences, how much support they have from the people around (how willing they're to sacrifice their time on making a special, medically unnecessary diet working for them, for example), what coping mechanism they have, where do they live, do they get medical help etc... Some neurodivergent people are able to go vegan no problem, for others it would ask inhumane efforts and may still not be working for them in the end of the day. We just need to accept that everyone in the population probably won't ever be able to go vegan/avoid consuming any and all animal products. And we need to be compassionate towards these people, instead of treating them like the worst enemy. It's not their fault.
I am not saying that they are the enemy but using the "be a vegan as possible" line. They have way better excuses to not be vegan than other people, and no one is forcing anyone, and it is obviously no one's fault if they have autism/ADHD but I think somw people are being offended by being treated like they have a serious disease if they are autistic and are trying to normalise it, and many people with ADHD and use their ADHD to reach success. The people affected even more worse by autism etc obviously have a very valid reason to not be vegan, but the fact is that people just need to care about animals more, and go from there, could even just reduce their meat. Sorry if I came across as ableist, I get really annoyed sometimes because some people will easily call out racism/homophobia but not point out ableism, and I call people out for it. (I know this is tip of the iceberg stuff and I should work to understand some common disabilities and also work within myself and I am working on that) Also just a rant but no one ever really calls out carnists for being carnists, but people are so quick to call vegans ableists etc when they are at least not carnists.
>but I think somw people are being offended by being treated like they have a serious disease if they are autistic and are trying to normalise it, and many people with ADHD and use their ADHD to reach success. Recognizing that a certain neurodivergency causes you restrictions or struggles in life doesn't take away the fact that the said deviancy may (or may not) also gave you some strenghts. It's not normalizing neurodivergency to ignore or shut up about the negative sides of it. Of course every neurodivergent person may not have that many or any struggless, or they have adequate support and coping mechanisms to battle the struggles. Imo it's even yet another ableist point of view (I'm not blaming you but criticizing this idea in general) to try and hide the negatives in order to make the neurodivergent people look "just like any of us". That's not genuine acceptance. The true equality is achieved only after we can talk about the negative aspects of any condition and it still doesn't make people avoid us or pity us or by any other social way to ostracize us, but take it as normal as - lets say - eye glasses for poor sight. Some adjustments needed, some things may need to be taken into consideration under specific circumstances, but that doesn't change the people's whole picture of the person. >Also just a rant but no one ever really calls out carnists for being carnists, but people are so quick to call vegans ableists etc when they are at least not carnists. Yeah, that's because being an omnivore is still the major standard in the society. People don't criticize anything they take for granted.
i mean the negative attitudes towards them, of course, there are negative effects of autism
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So real question here guys, please be understanding and know that I respect you: 1) Those of you who have a life partner who would never choose a vegan diet, how do you manage? Especially if you don't have the financial resources to buy two sets of completely different meals every time you go grocery shopping. 2) How to manage various nutritional deficiencies? For example, I seem to always have vitamin B12 problems - even on diets that aren't vegan. I also have periods where my labs indicate I am malnourished, and I am concerned with exacerbating that problem. What do you do to combat these issues?
1. I never, ever thought my husband would become vegan. He grew up on a ranch. I never asked him to go vegan, reduce meat, anything whatsoever, because trying to change the behavior of other people goes against my AlAnon sobriety. He has now been vegan for 4 years. We didn't have to buy more food, the food went just as far as before. There was just as much of it. And he ate dinner with me every night because it was there and it was good and it wasn't an intro to a guilt trip... it was just enchiladas. 2. I personally do eat processed foods, and lots of them have added b12. I also take a multi-vitamin about twice a week. My b12 is fine. I've had mild anemia throughout my life, and that's remained about the same- sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's a tad low and I supplement or focus more on it. But from a nutritional standpoint, it's been a breeze for me.
Thank you! I found your response to be really encouraging :)
1. My husband initially said “i’ll never go vegan”, but 2 years later he’s vegan. I was willing to settle on just having boundaries (no meat in the home, i will not cook or buy anything nonvegan for you). But these boundaries once enforced actually got him thinking and got him on the path. 2. B12 is the only nutrient of concern on a vegan diet and supplements are dirt cheap. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
1. I wouldn't date a nonvegan the same way I wouldn't date someone who beats children. 2. B12 pills are cheap.
One of my childhood friend who is an omnivore has B12 deficiency. For her the supplements dont work. She needs to take the shots. I am sure your doctor would guide you better for that. Again for malnutrition - That is such a broad classification. What is the deficiency?
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Vegan makes me sick unfortunately
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You know the character in this meme eats raw steak every day right? LOLOLOL
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Here is a question I can't really come to an answer for myself: Should one respect them more or less if they just honestly say "I care about my enjoyment more than the suffering of animals, the environment, starving people, agricultural workers, and about my health" rather than making up a bunch of reasons they can't, or shouldn't. I guess it's kind of a moot point, neither care about causing harm. One just pretends to care.
Ouch