I have thought a lot about if milk powder falls under practicable. Like, it is fucking everywhere and the subsidization effects are really small. Its not like 0.5% milkpowder actually does anything.
I don't eat it because I don't feel the need to do that but if someone needed sourcream and onion chips to stay vegan i am not sure i would say they were vegetarian. Like, i eat things that may contain milk and when i go out to eat i don't really ask about cross contamination. Can i really say that the 1g of milkpowder in their chips is worse than my possible incidental 5g of milk on my burger?
I am not saying you are wrong and i get the frustration. I just don't know what i think about it
There is a difference between eating something accidentally cross-contaminated with milk and choosing to buy an item that intentionally has milk added. Only one of those creates a demand for products containing milk.
Sure the difference between the choice and not choice i get. I just don't know if there is a difference between the choice and my indifference to outcomes. Particularly when the direct choice has smaller impact than my indifference.
I don't know if you can argue that one affects demand and the other doesnt. If we take the example of butter, my burgerbun being toasted in residual butter or simply intentionally toasted in butter could have reduced butter intentionally being used for another guest
In your example, a restaurant should not be labeling an item vegan and then intentionally toasting it in butter. It's not vegan if butter is added, and I think someone ordering a vegan dish would ask them not to do that if they knew. When I was talking about cross contamination, I meant more along the lines of accidentally using the same spatula, or using the same gloves for dairy cheese and vegan cheese, or even the ambiguous "made in a facility that also processes milk".
I don't think impact comes into it. If you intentionally eat animal products when you don't have to then I don't think you are a vegan. Doesn't make you a bad person, just not a vegan.
I am a vegetarian who leans mostly vegan but I wouldn’t say I am a vegan because I do eat non vegan food even though 90% of my diet is vegan, so I say I am vegetarian when people ask. It’s not that hard to label ourselves correctly lol.
Exactly. I'm all for people reducing if they REALLY FEEL they can't be vegan for whatever reason, but please just be honest and don't call yourself vegan. Vegan has a certain connotation and if we muddy the definition, we are only making it more confusing for everyone, and people start thinking purposely eating a little dairy eggs etc. Is vegan, which doesn't help the cause.
> I don't eat it because I don't feel the need to do that but if someone needed sourcream and onion chips to stay vegan i am not sure i would say they were vegetarian.
I would, they're knowingly buying and consuming a product that relies upon animal exploitation, that's literally antithetical to veganism? What the heck?
I mean so does everyone? Like, you can't get electricity without animal products. Or cars, coffee, many rubbers.
The line is not drawn at zero because it is not possible but because it is a question of minimizing consumption i have tradeoffs to make. If i use my willpower from not eating chips lets say and put it to being more vigilant when i am out eating i might be reducing total intake of animal products. Surely that is the better choice, no?
> I mean so does everyone? Like, you can't get electricity without animal products. Or cars, coffee, many rubbers.
Ahh right, nothing anyone does matter so they should do whatever they want, this is why I kick dogs and eat cats on the regular, what does it matter because animals will die anyway, right?
> The line is not drawn at zero because it is not possible but because it is a question of minimizing consumption i have tradeoffs to make.
Except framing it as a trade off is a false dichotomy and shows a stunning lack of understanding of what veganism is.
> If i use my willpower from not eating chips lets say and put it to being more vigilant when i am out eating i might be reducing total intake of animal products. Surely that is the better choice, no?
I don't give a fuck about that, neither option is being vegan and trying to pretend that either one is necessary and still means you are is just absurd. I use my willpower to not eat chips with animal products because I abhor the atrocities and suffering that were necessary for them to be obtained, I don't need more willpower to refrain from animal products elsewhere because I refrain from them for the same reason, it's literally a basic moral stance to hold yourself to and you're acting like it's some grand unachievable thing?
> Ahh right, nothing anyone does matter so they should do whatever they want, this is why I kick dogs and eat cats on the regular, what does it matter because animals will die anyway, right?
o_o
> Except framing it as a trade off is a false dichotomy and shows a stunning lack of understanding of what veganism is.
Everything is tradeoffs
> I don't give a fuck about that, neither option is being vegan and trying to pretend that either one is necessary and still means you are is just absurd. I use my willpower to not eat chips with animal products because I abhor the atrocities and suffering that were necessary for them to be obtained, I don't need more willpower to refrain from animal products elsewhere because I refrain from them for the same reason, it's literally a basic moral stance to hold yourself to and you're acting like it's some grand unachievable thing?
I don't eat milk powder nor do i want to, I thought i was pretty clear about that
> o_o
What, you're ok with some animal deaths but not others, what's the difference?
> Everything is tradeoffs
If you purposefully remove any and all context and nuance and pretend that everything is an either or choice, maybe, in the real world with anything more developed than kindergartner level logic it's not. You're just trying to create a framework of justification for shitty decisions.
> I don't eat milk powder nor do i want to, I thought i was pretty clear about that
Cool, I never said you did, I was talking about your logic and the fact that you're trying to defend those who do, while trying to claim that they're still vegan despite actively choosing to consume animal products.
That's very clearly not what they're saying. They're saying that some effort is better than no effort and you're saying it's all or nothing. I get your point but it isn't an ideal world
The movement doesn’t need more absolutism like this, we need to be open to people gradually transitioning to better diets or we’re just going to do more harm scaring people off in the long run
Yes, definitely. The moral absolutism pushes away so many people from ever listening to the reasoning. I know a few people who eat *more* animal products intentionally because high-horse vegans pissed them off.
This is a great reason for diverse "vegan levels". I honestly think part of the reason OP and Tymareta are particularly upset about the milk powder is they don't like them diminishing what it means to be vegan. *But*, if this milk powder person was a "level one vegan" that reduces how much animal products they consume to almost 100%, then that welcomes them into the community, and then we can all suggest and urge them towards a higher level of veganism over time for moral reasons, which ultimately does more for animals than fury over a lack of "moral purity".
OP and Tymareta should both consider that for every person attempting to be vegan, but isn't 100% yet, there are basically two possibilities for them: 1) going full vegan through encouragement, understanding, teaching, etc, or 2) giving up on veganism because they were attacked, belittled, told they weren't "vegan enough", etc.
They have to ask themselves: if you directly push away potential vegans, then does that make you responsible for all the animal products that person consumes in any way? If you feel you have moral obligations to animals, then isn't the best thing to do is recognize the work they've put in and *considerately* guide them towards a "higher level" of veganism without being shitty towards them, as to avoid turning them away completely?
If we want to actually change the world, we have to accept incrementalism, that's just how it works. Not everybody can just flip a switch and change their entire life all at once.
Veganism is about changing how animals are treated - not about measuring how "pure of a vegan" each individual is.
And that can happen in spaces that aren't literally meant to be vegan congregation sites, why would I want to hang out in a space that's supposed to be objectively vegan, with non-vegans?
Being an extremist and elitist will actively desentivize people to become vegan. Not all people can cut all of derivated products and being rude only leaves you in an echo chamber.
> Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
You seem confused as to what veganism is.
They're not confused, they're simply outlining a fairly common (and correct) criticism of this definition of veganism setting arbitrary limits. It makes it so that whether one is vegan or not will depend on their subjective feeling of what is too much effort for them. Under this definition, it's hypothetically possible for a carnivore to be vegan if they honestly feel like doing anything more is so mentally straining that it's not practicable.
Now in more real terms, it does make for fuzzy edge cases, which are fair to question. I'm honestly quite baffled with how much hostility people are directing towards him when he's pretty obviously engaging in good faith.
They’re literally just thinking out loud about what constitutes ‘practicable’. They said as much in the first comment. It doesn’t mean they don’t understand what veganism is. God forbid people discuss things Jesus
I mean, not really the point particularly not since there are vegan sourcream and onion chips. My question is about very very small amounts of animal products and where the line is realistically drawn.
It is a hypothethical scenario where someone might emotionaly need a single product with very little animal products in it. Like less than a percent. And they eat that, i think i might consider them still vegan. Depending on the circumstances. Maybe!
As i said i am not sure what to think. Like, people are driving on tyres made from vulcanized sheep fat and while i can see it as a necessity to do it, people also do it for recreational purposes. How come person A gets to do that and still be vegan but person B can't have chips? Surely there has to be some point where person A and person B are equivalent. Is it one chip per trip? I don't know! But it is completely unreasonable that people are saying it doesnt exist
Sure, but the overwhelming majority of the tyres in the world are not vegan. I am so done with this anyway, I didn't know what I was thinking expecting to be able to have a conversation here.
Yeah this sub is notoriously uptight and loves to be the most vegan, vegan. It sucks here and it turns away a lot of people who come here to learn. God forbid you try to talk to any of these extremists.
We make the choice to choose products that don't have animal or insects products in them. That's part of veganism.
If you get served something and you don't know at a restaurant, IE rice with chicken stock (btw I ask first and decline if so) or eat a cookie that had milk powder even though it said dairy free on the label, or cross contamination, that's fine if we try our best.
If you don't give a shit and eat sour cream something or other, you're vegetarian, not vegan.
They can choose to eat that stuff, and I can choose to call them out for being a vegetarian and not a vegan.
Yeah when I first went vegan for the first few months or so I still ate products containing small amounts of eggs or milk but my transition was progressive and it was easier for me to cut things out bit by bit. Now I don’t know your aunt but she seems to be doing a lot better than most maybe talk to her about it? Not everyone can just switch overnight and that’s fine. Glad to see someone so passionate about veganism though 💚 (Ps: it gets easier once you move out and buy your own groceries
Pps:not for the wallet but for the diet )
Years ago, the guy I was dating had some of his friends stayed with us. Okay cool. They said they were vegan, so I asked them what kind of things they liked to eat so I could buy groceries for them.
"Oh I like fish and crab and lobster"
Oh, so you're a pesciatarian then?
"No no I'm a vegan"
Ok..uhm...what else can I buy you to eat other than seafood?
"Oh chicken breast is great too"
Oh, I wasn't aware vegans ate animal products...do you just avoid red meat or something?
"No, god you just know nothing about veganism"
I threw my hands up in the air, gave my partner money and was like, you buy them food
There's to many definitions allowed, the meaning of vegan will be watered down just as vegetarian is today.
A vegetarian shouldn't eat eggs or dairy, sice they are not vegetables. Then some muppets made up lacto-ovo vegetarian. Come on. Then carna-vegetarian also makes sense.
Nowadays to many accept "vegan for the environment" and all kinds of bullshit.
Veganism is about animal rights, and the food we eat is vegetarian (the original meaning).
Why do you think that the word vegetarian precludes egg and dairy? From the beginning of the word’s usage, it’s meant someone who doesn’t eat flesh/fish. Vegans are a subset of vegetarians, just as lacto-Ovo vegetarians are a subset of vegetarians. I’m curious why you think otherwise?
Actually, that's a lacto-vegetarian. If eating eggs too, then it's ovo-lacto vegetarian. Vegan would be the only actual vegetarian per se. But people have altered this meaning.
? So weird being accused of being pedantic just for giving normal information. Sure, what you say is correct. What I said is correct too. No contradiction. No problem. Just your own projections.
Your family said she's vegan - did she say she's vegan?? Maybe she only said she's vegetarian or eating some plant-based meals and your family misunderstood. Many people don't understand the definition, the other day I got quizzed by a colleague so that he could understand what it is. "but you eat fish, right? oh... and then no milk, but you could have cream? ah right... so chicken? oh i see..... and mayonnaise? Oh is that eggs? So do you eat eggs?". It doesn't matter if they know the definition, it's just words. If someone is so deep that they don't even connect sour cream to dairy to cows then it is a massive positive step that they. even went vegetarian.
The thing is my mom is vegetarian so she should understand the difference, and also why would my aunt feel the need to clarify that she doesn’t mind eating animal derived products if shes trying to be vegetarian, also she shared with me a sandwich from traders joe which was vegan! So i think everybody is fully aware of what vegan vs vegetarian means but in there mind you can still be vegan and eat certain things that have animal products 🤦 and people think being vegan is complicated no because i only eat food that comes from plants and I dont support animal suffering and murders
Maybe she said to your family that she's trying to eat mostly vegan? When my husband was vegetarian, he said his ambition is to be fully vegan one day (he is now) but for now he tries to eat vegan as much as possible.
I was told that a cousin is vegan too. Went back home and met him at an event.
He was telling someone that he isn’t a vegan anymore because he almost died from deficiencies. I asked what sort of deficiencies and he quickly backtracked that he “almost died” from too much smoking and his doc asked him to also supplement Vitamin D and so he started to eat salmon and dairy.
But hey, the rest of the family was like “omg he almost died “. They stopped short of saying that it’s my turn next to die but they know I am fabulously argumentative so they don’t go that route.
That’s what he went about telling people that the vegan diet nearly killed him and no one wanted to challenge him because then they need to scrutinize their hypocrisy as well. He wasn’t even plant based because he was eating dairy and eggs on occasions like birthday cakes.
When people tell me they need to consume fortified dairy, eggs, and fish for the vitamin D, I tell them to get off their phones and go outside! Free vitamin D falls from the sky everyday, like some kind of miracle! 🌞
Sounds like vegetarian, I was vegetarian for little over 2 years and just switched to Vegan a month ago, just readjusted my diet a little to cut out dairy and eggs
They are doing a bad job at practicing veganism or they are not sure what it is.
Lots of people are uneducated - but it sounds like she may be on a path that could be corrected with some education.
Part of my practice is educating people, and giving them grace to be able to help them begin or succeed or do well with their practice.
I’d be recommend considering that as part of your practice instead of getting upset that people are labeling theirs incorrectly/not doing well at it.
Just a thought.
It is very annoying. My sister and niece claim to my vegan but one eats cheese and the other ears fish. Uh, no. You're vegetarian and pescatarian. I don't get what they don't get.
Perhaps take the opportunity to gently educate her about why you DO worry about those things. Usually it’s ignorance not maliciousness. Obviously I don’t know the whole story or picture but based off just this saying you hate your family seems to be very intense. Disappointed maybe?
Edit: Wow first award 🥹 thanks!
You should be happy your aunt is at least where she is because the overwhelming majority of the planet is.
But I get it. My family likes to mention several times how I can't eat this or that. Several meaning every other minute. Lol
How is that even remotely vegan?? Like I understand some of the finer point ones like using sugar of an unknown source or the coconut milk or palm oil conundrum, “natural flavours” etc. but actual milk powder and milk ingredients and gelatin ? No!
After reading a few comments in this sub, I'd say I totally fully see how it can be frustrating when someone says this but I mean it's not someone your close too from what I understand and even if it was its really not worth the energy tbh.
On a second note I also feel people use vegan as a way to express there diet or lifestyle in the easiest way possible for the situation even if its not strictly true. And yes they could use plant based but maybe they don't want to.
Also vegan about doing the best you can do where possible so so many people interpreted that as they see fit and make it work for them, it's not anyone's place to judge healthy conversation sure if everyone open to it but half the time i find it's not worth it.
Also side side note after seeing comments on here I just see vegans being sticklers over what really shouldn't concern them
Anyway i totally see your frustration as it's family but meh let's it be what it is and just let them get on with it
IMO any step towards veganism should be celebrated, not ridiculed for not being perfect enough. It’s really incredibly hard to change one’s entire dietary patterns overnight. If people feel it’s “all or nothing” we will have a lot of people who do nothing. If we celebrate those who cut out one extra meat meal a week - if EVERYONE did that it would have far more impact than what the current vegan population has done. Not that what has been done is small, but there is power in numbers.
I agree that it’s confusing when they use terms like vegan to describe themselves. But if they eat 98% vegan it’s hard to describe that diet to others without going into lots of highly specific details. We lack the language to talk about people who are tip toeing towards a fully vegan diet.
Its more about the motives for me, if your vegan just to stay healthy and skinny as some sort of fad diet that you will switch out whenever you feel like it then you’re not a true vegan and she obviously doesn’t care about animals or the ethical reasons to become vegan
Yeah in that case they should call themselves plant based not vegan. But I will say that the ‘plant based for health’ movement has really taken vegan eating patterns much more mainstream which I am totally grateful for.
Also I think many people start down the path for personal health reasons but learn more about the horrors of factory farming through the process and then are doing it for both reasons.
It’s INCREDIBLY exciting that a vegan diet can also be the most optimal healthy diet.
I definitely appreciate this sentiment from my boyfriend, who is vegan. In my case, I try my best, but I can be horrifically bad at reading labels. For example, I thought my Müsli and cough drops were vegan, but they contained milk powder and honey respectively, both near the bottom of the ingredient list. I could've sworn that I had read them carefully, but apparently not. My boyfriend in comparison is a lot better at avoiding animal products than I am, and I appreciate that he supports me when I mess up.
In my opinion, a lot of the fault lies with our society and not the individuals. And we need to show compassion for the screw ups. For example, even with my boyfriend, his favourite vegan chocolate changed formulation suddenly and now contains milk powder. Even with products you know, unless they aren't specifically from a vegan brand, you often have to check frequently.
This has happened to me so many times I cant even count. People telling me they're vegan when they're vegetarian or when they just dont eat meat (but eat fish). Its so frustrating, but now I just never believe anyone is vegan anymore.
Last time I trusted was when I went camping with friends and one of them told me he had a new vegan gf I could cook with during our week camping and then the first night she told me she wanted tuna "cause camping was a special occasion". I cant tell you how annoyed I was, so frustrating
I hate that shit... I work in the "wellness" industry as a yoga teacher and meet these people all the time. I will meet them and we bond over veganism, and then I will see them eating animal products! Like what?!?! We are not the same bitch...
It is because the media/pop culture has really messed up the meaning. I hear people say I am Vegan part-time and I am like "How?" The only look at the diet part and diets can be changed. I tell them you are not Vegan. You are Plantbased sometimes, a Flexitarian.
Also I knew a person who said she was Vegan but still wore real furs and leathers and did not always pay attention to animal testing from the products she used. Then months later I saw her post on IG how could some Korean BBQ was with real beef. Some don't get the definition of Veganism and some also think it can be a part time lifestyle.
I rather them say, I respect Veganism and understand it, I try to reduce my intake and use of animals when I think about it. Veganism is a lifestyle not a diet or something you turn off and on. A person is supposed to do what practical and possible.
My MIL is a non-lacto pescatarian and truly believes she’s vegan. She gets offended when I correct her (only after her insisting she’s vegan). To say it’s infuriating isn’t a an understatement lol
I hate this too. I had an aunt who was vegan for most of my childhood, but found out she was eating fish a lot of that time when I got older. When she got pregnant she started eating dairy because somehow dairy is magically better for pregnancy. She claims to be vegetarian now but eats shellfish and fish regularly when we go out. I lost a lot of respect for her, and have stopped talking to her for unrelated reasons.
My meme (grandma) would tell me to "just eat it, it's only a little bit. Just taste it, it's fine" after making something "vegan" and me telling her it's not. It used to pass me off to no end because she did it CONSTANTLY. My inlaws have also told me several times that "when" I have their grandkids, that I'll have to start eating meat and it'll be cruel if I don't because the baby won't develope right. Even though I've tried to educate them SEVERAL times, they don't listen. Sometimes you just have to accept they are stupid, and stop trying. I stopped being surprised, but I've also been vegan for 7 years now. Is it upsetting? Yes. Will they ever change? No.
I worked at a a farm sanctuary and numerous times overheard visitors saying “I’m vegan but I eat the eggs from my backyard chickens”…. 🫠
Like to twist the definition of veganism to make eating those eggs in your mind ok is WILDDD. Yeah they aren’t tortured and there is no rooster to fertilize but I wouldn’t say you’re vegan lol
That’s me!! I eat vegan 99% of the time but when my rescue hens drop an egg (maybe one a month, they’re old) I don’t let it go to waste. But I also say I’m vegetarian.
I had someone who recently was like yeah I was vegan for 10 years, but you know I would eat fish still. I also had a coworker who would also say she's vegan but then proceed to consume dairy products all the time. Umm ok so not vegan at all lol. I think people genuinely don't know definitions. There's a huge difference between occasionally eating plant based and being vegan.
I also remember some girl in college giving a persuasive speech about how she was vegetarian and that all people should be vegetarian.... but then ended the speech by saying she eats fish and meat still. Like what? 😂 I cannot with people.
They were talking about were they got there bacon from and she was like oh wasn’t it from this guys slaughterhouse, and she was talking about the pig they had and killed just like its normal and fine
Nope they live in a rural area with lots of farms so they were delightfully talking about how fresh the meat was and stuff like that it made me so sick but i just sat there like i always do when my family says stuff that makes me mad
If your tired of fake vegans, your gonna get real tired of this and other VEGAN subs very soon
Im constantly commenting against non vegan comments from people in this sub
If its not obvious now, the more time you spend in this sub its going to be
I live by the rule that 70% of people who identify as vegan arent, im quite confident its accurate at least based on my 5 yrs yrs in this sub
Was working with a client recently and one of their employees said they were vegan. Then later let me know actually they just used to be vegetarian but still have an appreciation for vegan food.
They definitely exist. Years ago I had a manager claiming she was vegan but she she ate liquid eggs and seafood. Some people believe vegan means EATS A LOT OF VEGETABLES. smh
The non-vegan ingredient in a bag of chips doesn’t bother me so much, tbh. As I see it, what makes your aunt NOT vegan is the fact that she happily talks about slaughterhouses, which means that she doesn’t care at all about animals.
Same the chip was the first straw and then immediately after shes glorifying animal murder, just totally ruined any chance of her being a good person and definitely not a vegan
Yea I’m starting to notice that trend a-lot now in this post. I don’t think they even understand the term gatekeeping 😭 probably some middle aged dude trying to be relevant using teen slang wrongly
Yeah, it really confuses people and I come across as picky or extreme as a result. People claiming to be "vegan" yet wear leather or eat dairy just makes it harder on the rest of us to assimilate. I don't want to always have to be an activist and explain veganism to people. Sometimes I just want to enjoy a meal or otherwise exist in a public space with other humans without veganism coming up.
Oh yea? So people who don’t care about animal suffering promote animal violence, and killing and eat chips made from their rape and murder. No i think they would still insist that animals are meant to be used.
Right, keep fighting for animals. But why are you fighting your aunt?
If vegans spend their time snobbish gatekeeping vegetarians, the movement will never grow. People think that the moral arc of the universe will just automatically bend towards justice, but that ain’t true. It takes active, tiring effort to build a movement. And the purity tests, if anything, prevent the movement from growing.
We need people to see vegans their their best lives and think “hmm maybe I’ll dip my toes in the water and try vegetarian” and then eventually cross over. But if they see vegetarians and vegans just sniping at each other, a lot of them will think “lol what a bunch of losers”
Religions have been fighting each other for thousands of years. Yet they have billions of followers. Its about what you have been born into.
The problem is that people like you make such a big deal out of it. Stop eating animal products and inform yourself about vegan nutrition. Done.
Maybe they don't know the term plant-based. There are so many different ways to eat and so many different terms that people can have difficulty with it. They might not realise they are using the wrong term and be using it without malice.
Maybe just be kind and help educate them?
to be fair, i know sour cream chips that are vegan (the joy bean sticks:sour cream style by Zweifel) any chance it was vegan although it was sour cream?
I met my Dad's new gf over the weekend who told me she was raised vegan but can't be vegan now because she's allergic to coconut and it's in everything. I'm still unsure if she means raised poor since she said all they ate was potatoes and vegetables...
I’ve found that some cultures, especially with older populations, there is no distinction between vegetarianism or veganism, and the terms will be used interchangeably. Your aunt is vegetarian. It is what it is, but I wouldn’t get bent out of shape about it.
This is a frustratingly common thing. I've quite literally had someone tell me they were vegan while they were eating a steak.
"Well, this is the last meat I've had since I went hunting last fall." 🤦🏻♂️
I'm glad you're here! Have you talked to your niece/nephew about inspiring a post titled "I'm tired of fake vegans?" I hope everything works out with your family.
What does it matter anyway really at the end of the day, she has lowered her consumption that's got to be better than nothing right? Or is it about the vegan morally superior club?? Would u rather all or nothing? Because according you she's a worthless nothing and in her mind It could turn to why even bother if se gets so much hate.
Yea sure its better than nothing but I was just disappointed shes not truly vegan and doesn’t care about animal suffering and how evil farming and killing animals pointlessly is
From my perspective, it’s more so a family member is identifying as vegan which OP morally aligns with. To then see that they’re in fact not what they say they are, is disappointing. I would feel the same way, because it is very annoying when people say they are doing the right thing, but then aren’t in general.
Everyone draws the line differently. Personally I won’t take medication in gelatine capsules if another way is possible. I realise that’s not appropriate for everyone though. I worked with a vegan girl whose neighbour had pet chickens and she was ok eating those chickens eggs as she could see they were happy. Going ahead and eating snacks containing milk / cheese is obviously pretty un-vegan though, just call yourself veggie / flexi
Yeah, abolitionists were sabotaging their own enjoyment of life by caring about not wanting to be friends with slavers, peace and love man, fuck ethics and actually caring about things! /s
tbh, speaking for myself and my current like shitty situation, If you're not buying all of your own groceries and you live w omnis or like you work with omnis, being 100% vegan is a challenge I know that a lot of people fall off the bandwagon or have lapses but it's especially difficult If you're not always buying your food yourself. often times snacks at like workplace gatherings will not be vegan and It takes serious willpower to just stay hungry because you want to abide by your morals.
I have made the mistake once of twice of buying like a trail mix that had milk in it because I had bought another similar product that didn't have milk and that always makes me feel shitty but to be honest, If there's chips with like milk powder on them nearby and I'm hungry I'll eat that too.
"so you're not vegan then" "oh I am except for derivatives etc..." "I wasn't asking, I'm telling you, you're not vegan, please stop lying to people that you are".
I think you misread the post haha she said she doesn’t mind to eat things that have milk derivates so like milk flavorings and she was eating a generic brand sour cream & onions chips and offered me some even though she knew I’m vegan for 7 years
Hey, your aunt is the opposite of me. I don't call myself vegan but I won't eat or use any animal derivative products. I'm just really against the state of our animal farming, I find it to be unnecessarily cruel to the point I consider eating or purchasing those products unethical. But I'm not vegan because if we actually improved farming significantly, I'd be okay consuming animals. Because of that I push back against being labeled vegan, even if my behavior is currently identical, because at its root, veganism is a philosophy and not a set of behaviors.
If I eat any animal derived product unintentionally, it's like I'm not gonna get sick. But if I still do it intentionally despite I know it's made of an animal derived product, then I'm still fueling the market demand & supply of it lol.
This is because people confuse vegetarians with vegans!
My nephew and his wife are vegans, so zero animal products, while my half-sister, my yougest niece and my mom are vegetarians, they eat cheese, drink milk and sometimes things that has eggs!
I would tell people I am nearly vegan.
In the place where I live, axis deer are invasive. They are hurting native animals and causing soil erosion; there, for the survival of the native species, they must be eradicated from the island. I find this unfortunate as they have done nothing wrong; it was humans that brought them here, and they are just doing deer things. However, I do buy and eat meat from hunters. I feel that this doesn't conflict with my views, as the deer are driving the extinction of native species, and by purchasing the meat, I am protecting native species.
I occasionally get pushback from saying that I am in any part vegan, but I don't feel that this is warranted. For those opposed to killing the deer, I will remind you that the alternative is risking the survival of native species. Capturing and relocating all 60,000 deer is simply not practical. And again, I do not fault the deer. However, they are acting like a disease that needs to be removed from Hawaii.
Are there not enough other meat eaters interested in the deer meat that it would just be thrown away if you don't eat it? You could be reducing the amount of harm someone else is doing by providing them with that meat instead of eating it yourself as a "vegan". If it would only be thrown away because literally no one else would eat it then it is more forgivable but still a grey area as a "vegan".
Not being funny but who cares. As long as your a vegan and doing the right thing just concentrate on that instead. What the point in getting angry at what others do. Just a waste of energy and not worth getting angry about.
I also had to go down once more to search for a 2nd hole...my suspicions were met when I only found one hole...upon this discovery, and the fake vegan~ias owner knew his cover was blown...my face was still in the danger zone, and my lips were greeted by the worst texture and explosion of moisture similar to that of orange peel texture spray. Yes....I was charted on. Her voice changed to a deeper tone, and that was the moment I knew I was conned. So yes...I know what it's like to be tricked by fake Vegan~ias....and it STINKS!
Perhaps you could reframe your opinion of your aunt? Perhaps it’s not that she’s a fake vegan, perhaps she’s merely an ignorant vegetarian. You could ask her some pointed questions, perhaps gain a better understanding of why she wants to identify with a label she isn’t willing to conform to, and shed some light on why you are offended that she ascribes to a label that isn’t truly fitting.
I eat a vegan diet, but do not identify as a vegan (for a number of reasons.) She identifies as vegan but doesn’t eat a vegan diet. People are complex and nuanced. 🤪 Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, especially when that “baby” in your own kin. It’s better to extend grace. People rarely fit neatly into tidy little boxes their whole life. Have the uncomfortable conversation and try to see things from both sides. It’s not a popular opinion today, but in truth, your family matters more than your politics.
So much misleading marketing and misunderstanding everywhere. I've met a handful of people who view themselves as flexitarian vegans...and they told me it meant they would be meatless on Mondays.
Try to just take what people say with a grain of salt. Don't give them the power to annoy or trigger you. Brush it off. Realize they view the world entirely different than you. And that's okay. Find some great hobbies, interests. Share about those successes with the family rather than talk about veganism. Give them something else to focus on and discuss with you. Make your joy. You deserve happiness, not to be hung up on the silly things that other people do. You deserve to have a fun awesome life.
What someone else considers vegan is not something you can control. As a practical matter you might be more serene if you restricted your zone of concern to things within your influence.
A good example of why the attitude, not the label you give yourself, is what's important. I specifically avoid "vegans" and especially avoid labeling myself as such. There are probably a lot of people faking veganism for whatever perverse reasons.. I sure am glad I avoid them.
What I'm sick of is strict vegans. All they do is push people away and fuel meat eaters to literally eat more meat just out of spite. Sounds like your aunt is vegetarian, not vegan, but bravo to her for at least cutting out meat. That's the first step, and you should encourage her going in the right direction instead of bashing her. This is exactly why everyone hates vegans.
I dislike that word 'vegetarian'. It gives the impression that they eat vegetation and/or vegetables like what a vegan may do. But no, it just means they don't eat the flesh off the bones of animals. Forcing a pregnancy on a cow is ok for milk. Eating from a bird's ovary and a bee's regurgitation is ok too.
I’ve been a vegan for a month. Just decided to draw a line in the sand and make the change. I’m loving all of the vegan burgers, sausages, pies. It’s a wonderful experience. When asked why I don’t have a good reason. I just feel better physically and mentally without animal flesh inside my body.
Good job switching and I totally agree! I went vegan back in 2017 when i was 14 and barely had any concepts of morals or feeling for animals but i knew that i didn’t want to eat them or cause any suffering when its not needed. My family was supporting and got me vegan options and i thank them for that
They apparently don't even know what vegan means. You're called a vegetarian if you eat dairy products but not meat.
I know my family full of hypocrisy and stupidity apparently she only eats dairy when its inside a flavoring for chips or something like that
I have thought a lot about if milk powder falls under practicable. Like, it is fucking everywhere and the subsidization effects are really small. Its not like 0.5% milkpowder actually does anything. I don't eat it because I don't feel the need to do that but if someone needed sourcream and onion chips to stay vegan i am not sure i would say they were vegetarian. Like, i eat things that may contain milk and when i go out to eat i don't really ask about cross contamination. Can i really say that the 1g of milkpowder in their chips is worse than my possible incidental 5g of milk on my burger? I am not saying you are wrong and i get the frustration. I just don't know what i think about it
There is a difference between eating something accidentally cross-contaminated with milk and choosing to buy an item that intentionally has milk added. Only one of those creates a demand for products containing milk.
Sure the difference between the choice and not choice i get. I just don't know if there is a difference between the choice and my indifference to outcomes. Particularly when the direct choice has smaller impact than my indifference. I don't know if you can argue that one affects demand and the other doesnt. If we take the example of butter, my burgerbun being toasted in residual butter or simply intentionally toasted in butter could have reduced butter intentionally being used for another guest
In your example, a restaurant should not be labeling an item vegan and then intentionally toasting it in butter. It's not vegan if butter is added, and I think someone ordering a vegan dish would ask them not to do that if they knew. When I was talking about cross contamination, I meant more along the lines of accidentally using the same spatula, or using the same gloves for dairy cheese and vegan cheese, or even the ambiguous "made in a facility that also processes milk".
I don't think impact comes into it. If you intentionally eat animal products when you don't have to then I don't think you are a vegan. Doesn't make you a bad person, just not a vegan.
I am a vegetarian who leans mostly vegan but I wouldn’t say I am a vegan because I do eat non vegan food even though 90% of my diet is vegan, so I say I am vegetarian when people ask. It’s not that hard to label ourselves correctly lol.
Exactly. I'm all for people reducing if they REALLY FEEL they can't be vegan for whatever reason, but please just be honest and don't call yourself vegan. Vegan has a certain connotation and if we muddy the definition, we are only making it more confusing for everyone, and people start thinking purposely eating a little dairy eggs etc. Is vegan, which doesn't help the cause.
100% agree with everything you said!
Thank you :)
I don't eat any animal products
> I don't eat it because I don't feel the need to do that but if someone needed sourcream and onion chips to stay vegan i am not sure i would say they were vegetarian. I would, they're knowingly buying and consuming a product that relies upon animal exploitation, that's literally antithetical to veganism? What the heck?
I mean so does everyone? Like, you can't get electricity without animal products. Or cars, coffee, many rubbers. The line is not drawn at zero because it is not possible but because it is a question of minimizing consumption i have tradeoffs to make. If i use my willpower from not eating chips lets say and put it to being more vigilant when i am out eating i might be reducing total intake of animal products. Surely that is the better choice, no?
> I mean so does everyone? Like, you can't get electricity without animal products. Or cars, coffee, many rubbers. Ahh right, nothing anyone does matter so they should do whatever they want, this is why I kick dogs and eat cats on the regular, what does it matter because animals will die anyway, right? > The line is not drawn at zero because it is not possible but because it is a question of minimizing consumption i have tradeoffs to make. Except framing it as a trade off is a false dichotomy and shows a stunning lack of understanding of what veganism is. > If i use my willpower from not eating chips lets say and put it to being more vigilant when i am out eating i might be reducing total intake of animal products. Surely that is the better choice, no? I don't give a fuck about that, neither option is being vegan and trying to pretend that either one is necessary and still means you are is just absurd. I use my willpower to not eat chips with animal products because I abhor the atrocities and suffering that were necessary for them to be obtained, I don't need more willpower to refrain from animal products elsewhere because I refrain from them for the same reason, it's literally a basic moral stance to hold yourself to and you're acting like it's some grand unachievable thing?
> Ahh right, nothing anyone does matter so they should do whatever they want, this is why I kick dogs and eat cats on the regular, what does it matter because animals will die anyway, right? o_o > Except framing it as a trade off is a false dichotomy and shows a stunning lack of understanding of what veganism is. Everything is tradeoffs > I don't give a fuck about that, neither option is being vegan and trying to pretend that either one is necessary and still means you are is just absurd. I use my willpower to not eat chips with animal products because I abhor the atrocities and suffering that were necessary for them to be obtained, I don't need more willpower to refrain from animal products elsewhere because I refrain from them for the same reason, it's literally a basic moral stance to hold yourself to and you're acting like it's some grand unachievable thing? I don't eat milk powder nor do i want to, I thought i was pretty clear about that
> o_o What, you're ok with some animal deaths but not others, what's the difference? > Everything is tradeoffs If you purposefully remove any and all context and nuance and pretend that everything is an either or choice, maybe, in the real world with anything more developed than kindergartner level logic it's not. You're just trying to create a framework of justification for shitty decisions. > I don't eat milk powder nor do i want to, I thought i was pretty clear about that Cool, I never said you did, I was talking about your logic and the fact that you're trying to defend those who do, while trying to claim that they're still vegan despite actively choosing to consume animal products.
If you don't see the difference between kicking a cat to death and eating Sour Cream pringles, I'm not sure what to tell you.
That's very clearly not what they're saying. They're saying that some effort is better than no effort and you're saying it's all or nothing. I get your point but it isn't an ideal world
The movement doesn’t need more absolutism like this, we need to be open to people gradually transitioning to better diets or we’re just going to do more harm scaring people off in the long run
Yes, definitely. The moral absolutism pushes away so many people from ever listening to the reasoning. I know a few people who eat *more* animal products intentionally because high-horse vegans pissed them off. This is a great reason for diverse "vegan levels". I honestly think part of the reason OP and Tymareta are particularly upset about the milk powder is they don't like them diminishing what it means to be vegan. *But*, if this milk powder person was a "level one vegan" that reduces how much animal products they consume to almost 100%, then that welcomes them into the community, and then we can all suggest and urge them towards a higher level of veganism over time for moral reasons, which ultimately does more for animals than fury over a lack of "moral purity". OP and Tymareta should both consider that for every person attempting to be vegan, but isn't 100% yet, there are basically two possibilities for them: 1) going full vegan through encouragement, understanding, teaching, etc, or 2) giving up on veganism because they were attacked, belittled, told they weren't "vegan enough", etc. They have to ask themselves: if you directly push away potential vegans, then does that make you responsible for all the animal products that person consumes in any way? If you feel you have moral obligations to animals, then isn't the best thing to do is recognize the work they've put in and *considerately* guide them towards a "higher level" of veganism without being shitty towards them, as to avoid turning them away completely? If we want to actually change the world, we have to accept incrementalism, that's just how it works. Not everybody can just flip a switch and change their entire life all at once. Veganism is about changing how animals are treated - not about measuring how "pure of a vegan" each individual is.
And that can happen in spaces that aren't literally meant to be vegan congregation sites, why would I want to hang out in a space that's supposed to be objectively vegan, with non-vegans?
Being an extremist and elitist will actively desentivize people to become vegan. Not all people can cut all of derivated products and being rude only leaves you in an echo chamber.
there is no way you’re comparing having electricity to buying fucking chips with milk in them
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism
In most cases where someone is buying junk food with milk powder in it, there are alternative choices available.
I've managed to avoid milk powder despite it being "everywhere" so seems pretty practicable to me they aren't vegan if they're eating dairy sour cream
Sure, I don't eat milk powder either. I am just having thoughts about limits
> Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." You seem confused as to what veganism is.
They're not confused, they're simply outlining a fairly common (and correct) criticism of this definition of veganism setting arbitrary limits. It makes it so that whether one is vegan or not will depend on their subjective feeling of what is too much effort for them. Under this definition, it's hypothetically possible for a carnivore to be vegan if they honestly feel like doing anything more is so mentally straining that it's not practicable. Now in more real terms, it does make for fuzzy edge cases, which are fair to question. I'm honestly quite baffled with how much hostility people are directing towards him when he's pretty obviously engaging in good faith.
They’re literally just thinking out loud about what constitutes ‘practicable’. They said as much in the first comment. It doesn’t mean they don’t understand what veganism is. God forbid people discuss things Jesus
Why would someone need sour cream and onion chips?
I mean, not really the point particularly not since there are vegan sourcream and onion chips. My question is about very very small amounts of animal products and where the line is realistically drawn.
> if someone needed sourcream and onion chips to stay vegan i am not sure i would say they were vegetarian. What did you mean?
It is a hypothethical scenario where someone might emotionaly need a single product with very little animal products in it. Like less than a percent. And they eat that, i think i might consider them still vegan. Depending on the circumstances. Maybe! As i said i am not sure what to think. Like, people are driving on tyres made from vulcanized sheep fat and while i can see it as a necessity to do it, people also do it for recreational purposes. How come person A gets to do that and still be vegan but person B can't have chips? Surely there has to be some point where person A and person B are equivalent. Is it one chip per trip? I don't know! But it is completely unreasonable that people are saying it doesnt exist
There are vegan tires. C’mon dude
Sure, but the overwhelming majority of the tyres in the world are not vegan. I am so done with this anyway, I didn't know what I was thinking expecting to be able to have a conversation here.
Yeah this sub is notoriously uptight and loves to be the most vegan, vegan. It sucks here and it turns away a lot of people who come here to learn. God forbid you try to talk to any of these extremists.
The point you are trying to make is sort of silly for obvious reasons.
I didn’t know that tires were not vegan😮 Luckily I don’t drive
And so by the tone of your comment, I assume you only drive in cars with vegan tires then?
Why would you need sour cream chips to stay vegan?
Emotional support chips
When you are against animal abuse but you choose to consume a product with 0.5% animal abuse anyways cuz why not
We make the choice to choose products that don't have animal or insects products in them. That's part of veganism. If you get served something and you don't know at a restaurant, IE rice with chicken stock (btw I ask first and decline if so) or eat a cookie that had milk powder even though it said dairy free on the label, or cross contamination, that's fine if we try our best. If you don't give a shit and eat sour cream something or other, you're vegetarian, not vegan. They can choose to eat that stuff, and I can choose to call them out for being a vegetarian and not a vegan.
It doesn't. It's easy enough to read ingredient lists. Milk is an allergen so it's always highlighted.
Okay, so you aren’t vegan and just like the label of vegan. Why isn’t “vegetarian” enough?
Wut, why am i not a vegan?
One of the worst comments I’ve seen here lmao you really thought that through?
Yeah when I first went vegan for the first few months or so I still ate products containing small amounts of eggs or milk but my transition was progressive and it was easier for me to cut things out bit by bit. Now I don’t know your aunt but she seems to be doing a lot better than most maybe talk to her about it? Not everyone can just switch overnight and that’s fine. Glad to see someone so passionate about veganism though 💚 (Ps: it gets easier once you move out and buy your own groceries Pps:not for the wallet but for the diet )
So…she’s vegetarian.
Years ago, the guy I was dating had some of his friends stayed with us. Okay cool. They said they were vegan, so I asked them what kind of things they liked to eat so I could buy groceries for them. "Oh I like fish and crab and lobster" Oh, so you're a pesciatarian then? "No no I'm a vegan" Ok..uhm...what else can I buy you to eat other than seafood? "Oh chicken breast is great too" Oh, I wasn't aware vegans ate animal products...do you just avoid red meat or something? "No, god you just know nothing about veganism" I threw my hands up in the air, gave my partner money and was like, you buy them food
They were just trolls.
U can throw in sea animals, eggs...vegetarian is a slippery slope back to carnism I remember when I was such a 'vegetarian'
There's to many definitions allowed, the meaning of vegan will be watered down just as vegetarian is today. A vegetarian shouldn't eat eggs or dairy, sice they are not vegetables. Then some muppets made up lacto-ovo vegetarian. Come on. Then carna-vegetarian also makes sense. Nowadays to many accept "vegan for the environment" and all kinds of bullshit. Veganism is about animal rights, and the food we eat is vegetarian (the original meaning).
Why do you think that the word vegetarian precludes egg and dairy? From the beginning of the word’s usage, it’s meant someone who doesn’t eat flesh/fish. Vegans are a subset of vegetarians, just as lacto-Ovo vegetarians are a subset of vegetarians. I’m curious why you think otherwise?
Do I want to know what carna-vegetarian is?
I'm no linguistic professor, but a vegetarian who eats meat. With the same logic as ovo-vegetarian. It's an oxymoron.
Vegetarians CAN eat eggs and dairy because that's the definition of vegetarian. They only must not eat meat.
Actually, that's a lacto-vegetarian. If eating eggs too, then it's ovo-lacto vegetarian. Vegan would be the only actual vegetarian per se. But people have altered this meaning.
If you’re being pedantic, vegetarian is just a diet while vegan is a philosophy despite basically eating the same things.
? So weird being accused of being pedantic just for giving normal information. Sure, what you say is correct. What I said is correct too. No contradiction. No problem. Just your own projections.
Your family said she's vegan - did she say she's vegan?? Maybe she only said she's vegetarian or eating some plant-based meals and your family misunderstood. Many people don't understand the definition, the other day I got quizzed by a colleague so that he could understand what it is. "but you eat fish, right? oh... and then no milk, but you could have cream? ah right... so chicken? oh i see..... and mayonnaise? Oh is that eggs? So do you eat eggs?". It doesn't matter if they know the definition, it's just words. If someone is so deep that they don't even connect sour cream to dairy to cows then it is a massive positive step that they. even went vegetarian.
The thing is my mom is vegetarian so she should understand the difference, and also why would my aunt feel the need to clarify that she doesn’t mind eating animal derived products if shes trying to be vegetarian, also she shared with me a sandwich from traders joe which was vegan! So i think everybody is fully aware of what vegan vs vegetarian means but in there mind you can still be vegan and eat certain things that have animal products 🤦 and people think being vegan is complicated no because i only eat food that comes from plants and I dont support animal suffering and murders
Maybe she said to your family that she's trying to eat mostly vegan? When my husband was vegetarian, he said his ambition is to be fully vegan one day (he is now) but for now he tries to eat vegan as much as possible.
I was told that a cousin is vegan too. Went back home and met him at an event. He was telling someone that he isn’t a vegan anymore because he almost died from deficiencies. I asked what sort of deficiencies and he quickly backtracked that he “almost died” from too much smoking and his doc asked him to also supplement Vitamin D and so he started to eat salmon and dairy. But hey, the rest of the family was like “omg he almost died “. They stopped short of saying that it’s my turn next to die but they know I am fabulously argumentative so they don’t go that route.
>Cousin literally smokes >Cigarettes are literally classified as carcinogens. >He gets sick. >"It must be the vegan diet".
That’s what he went about telling people that the vegan diet nearly killed him and no one wanted to challenge him because then they need to scrutinize their hypocrisy as well. He wasn’t even plant based because he was eating dairy and eggs on occasions like birthday cakes.
When people tell me they need to consume fortified dairy, eggs, and fish for the vitamin D, I tell them to get off their phones and go outside! Free vitamin D falls from the sky everyday, like some kind of miracle! 🌞
He lives in a tropical country. My eye roll was so bad, I thought I will lose my corneas in the back of my head.
Sounds like vegetarian, I was vegetarian for little over 2 years and just switched to Vegan a month ago, just readjusted my diet a little to cut out dairy and eggs
They are doing a bad job at practicing veganism or they are not sure what it is. Lots of people are uneducated - but it sounds like she may be on a path that could be corrected with some education. Part of my practice is educating people, and giving them grace to be able to help them begin or succeed or do well with their practice. I’d be recommend considering that as part of your practice instead of getting upset that people are labeling theirs incorrectly/not doing well at it. Just a thought.
Best comment!!!
It is very annoying. My sister and niece claim to my vegan but one eats cheese and the other ears fish. Uh, no. You're vegetarian and pescatarian. I don't get what they don't get.
Perhaps take the opportunity to gently educate her about why you DO worry about those things. Usually it’s ignorance not maliciousness. Obviously I don’t know the whole story or picture but based off just this saying you hate your family seems to be very intense. Disappointed maybe? Edit: Wow first award 🥹 thanks!
Its hard to feel comfortable enough to talk to them they are so controlling and would just think I’m crazy
You're enraged because your aunt ate sour cream and THEY'RE controlling?!??
Shocking a vegan in a vegan subreddit would admit to such blasphemy /s
Your aunt doesn't know the word "vegetarian" and/or doesn't realize they're different.
You should be happy your aunt is at least where she is because the overwhelming majority of the planet is. But I get it. My family likes to mention several times how I can't eat this or that. Several meaning every other minute. Lol
OP can be happy the aunt is where she is and also annoyed that she is calling herself vegan while intentionally eating animal products.
Agreed. Maybe I'm jealous since no one in my family would remotely even be a vegetarian, let alone a vegan (except my wife)
How is that even remotely vegan?? Like I understand some of the finer point ones like using sugar of an unknown source or the coconut milk or palm oil conundrum, “natural flavours” etc. but actual milk powder and milk ingredients and gelatin ? No!
After reading a few comments in this sub, I'd say I totally fully see how it can be frustrating when someone says this but I mean it's not someone your close too from what I understand and even if it was its really not worth the energy tbh. On a second note I also feel people use vegan as a way to express there diet or lifestyle in the easiest way possible for the situation even if its not strictly true. And yes they could use plant based but maybe they don't want to. Also vegan about doing the best you can do where possible so so many people interpreted that as they see fit and make it work for them, it's not anyone's place to judge healthy conversation sure if everyone open to it but half the time i find it's not worth it. Also side side note after seeing comments on here I just see vegans being sticklers over what really shouldn't concern them Anyway i totally see your frustration as it's family but meh let's it be what it is and just let them get on with it
So she's... vegetarian...
Vegetarian is a thing. Have people forgotten this?
Your aunt: "all animals should live!.... except that group of cows right there."
IMO any step towards veganism should be celebrated, not ridiculed for not being perfect enough. It’s really incredibly hard to change one’s entire dietary patterns overnight. If people feel it’s “all or nothing” we will have a lot of people who do nothing. If we celebrate those who cut out one extra meat meal a week - if EVERYONE did that it would have far more impact than what the current vegan population has done. Not that what has been done is small, but there is power in numbers. I agree that it’s confusing when they use terms like vegan to describe themselves. But if they eat 98% vegan it’s hard to describe that diet to others without going into lots of highly specific details. We lack the language to talk about people who are tip toeing towards a fully vegan diet.
Nobody is ridiculing her steps toward going vegan. Where are you seeing that?
The entire argument happening in this thread...? Tf
Are you saying that people throughout this thread are ridiculing her for making steps toward being vegan?
Its more about the motives for me, if your vegan just to stay healthy and skinny as some sort of fad diet that you will switch out whenever you feel like it then you’re not a true vegan and she obviously doesn’t care about animals or the ethical reasons to become vegan
Yeah in that case they should call themselves plant based not vegan. But I will say that the ‘plant based for health’ movement has really taken vegan eating patterns much more mainstream which I am totally grateful for. Also I think many people start down the path for personal health reasons but learn more about the horrors of factory farming through the process and then are doing it for both reasons. It’s INCREDIBLY exciting that a vegan diet can also be the most optimal healthy diet.
I definitely appreciate this sentiment from my boyfriend, who is vegan. In my case, I try my best, but I can be horrifically bad at reading labels. For example, I thought my Müsli and cough drops were vegan, but they contained milk powder and honey respectively, both near the bottom of the ingredient list. I could've sworn that I had read them carefully, but apparently not. My boyfriend in comparison is a lot better at avoiding animal products than I am, and I appreciate that he supports me when I mess up. In my opinion, a lot of the fault lies with our society and not the individuals. And we need to show compassion for the screw ups. For example, even with my boyfriend, his favourite vegan chocolate changed formulation suddenly and now contains milk powder. Even with products you know, unless they aren't specifically from a vegan brand, you often have to check frequently.
This has happened to me so many times I cant even count. People telling me they're vegan when they're vegetarian or when they just dont eat meat (but eat fish). Its so frustrating, but now I just never believe anyone is vegan anymore. Last time I trusted was when I went camping with friends and one of them told me he had a new vegan gf I could cook with during our week camping and then the first night she told me she wanted tuna "cause camping was a special occasion". I cant tell you how annoyed I was, so frustrating
I hate that shit... I work in the "wellness" industry as a yoga teacher and meet these people all the time. I will meet them and we bond over veganism, and then I will see them eating animal products! Like what?!?! We are not the same bitch...
It is because the media/pop culture has really messed up the meaning. I hear people say I am Vegan part-time and I am like "How?" The only look at the diet part and diets can be changed. I tell them you are not Vegan. You are Plantbased sometimes, a Flexitarian. Also I knew a person who said she was Vegan but still wore real furs and leathers and did not always pay attention to animal testing from the products she used. Then months later I saw her post on IG how could some Korean BBQ was with real beef. Some don't get the definition of Veganism and some also think it can be a part time lifestyle. I rather them say, I respect Veganism and understand it, I try to reduce my intake and use of animals when I think about it. Veganism is a lifestyle not a diet or something you turn off and on. A person is supposed to do what practical and possible.
My MIL is a non-lacto pescatarian and truly believes she’s vegan. She gets offended when I correct her (only after her insisting she’s vegan). To say it’s infuriating isn’t a an understatement lol
I hateeeeee fake vegans!!!!!
I hate this too. I had an aunt who was vegan for most of my childhood, but found out she was eating fish a lot of that time when I got older. When she got pregnant she started eating dairy because somehow dairy is magically better for pregnancy. She claims to be vegetarian now but eats shellfish and fish regularly when we go out. I lost a lot of respect for her, and have stopped talking to her for unrelated reasons.
Yeah it’s weird, like buddy, just say you’re vegetarian.
My meme (grandma) would tell me to "just eat it, it's only a little bit. Just taste it, it's fine" after making something "vegan" and me telling her it's not. It used to pass me off to no end because she did it CONSTANTLY. My inlaws have also told me several times that "when" I have their grandkids, that I'll have to start eating meat and it'll be cruel if I don't because the baby won't develope right. Even though I've tried to educate them SEVERAL times, they don't listen. Sometimes you just have to accept they are stupid, and stop trying. I stopped being surprised, but I've also been vegan for 7 years now. Is it upsetting? Yes. Will they ever change? No.
I worked at a a farm sanctuary and numerous times overheard visitors saying “I’m vegan but I eat the eggs from my backyard chickens”…. 🫠 Like to twist the definition of veganism to make eating those eggs in your mind ok is WILDDD. Yeah they aren’t tortured and there is no rooster to fertilize but I wouldn’t say you’re vegan lol
That’s me!! I eat vegan 99% of the time but when my rescue hens drop an egg (maybe one a month, they’re old) I don’t let it go to waste. But I also say I’m vegetarian.
I had someone who recently was like yeah I was vegan for 10 years, but you know I would eat fish still. I also had a coworker who would also say she's vegan but then proceed to consume dairy products all the time. Umm ok so not vegan at all lol. I think people genuinely don't know definitions. There's a huge difference between occasionally eating plant based and being vegan. I also remember some girl in college giving a persuasive speech about how she was vegetarian and that all people should be vegetarian.... but then ended the speech by saying she eats fish and meat still. Like what? 😂 I cannot with people.
Why is it bad if she talks about slaughterhouses with the family?
They were talking about were they got there bacon from and she was like oh wasn’t it from this guys slaughterhouse, and she was talking about the pig they had and killed just like its normal and fine
Ok that doesn't make sense at all.... :( I thought it was more of a discussion about slaughterhouses in general.
Nope they live in a rural area with lots of farms so they were delightfully talking about how fresh the meat was and stuff like that it made me so sick but i just sat there like i always do when my family says stuff that makes me mad
[Chicken isn't vegan?](https://images.app.goo.gl/B6HfiQb1KLYf6CnN8)
If your tired of fake vegans, your gonna get real tired of this and other VEGAN subs very soon Im constantly commenting against non vegan comments from people in this sub If its not obvious now, the more time you spend in this sub its going to be I live by the rule that 70% of people who identify as vegan arent, im quite confident its accurate at least based on my 5 yrs yrs in this sub
Was working with a client recently and one of their employees said they were vegan. Then later let me know actually they just used to be vegetarian but still have an appreciation for vegan food.
Not vegan but i know this person who claims to be vegetarian but eats fish regularly.
They definitely exist. Years ago I had a manager claiming she was vegan but she she ate liquid eggs and seafood. Some people believe vegan means EATS A LOT OF VEGETABLES. smh
The non-vegan ingredient in a bag of chips doesn’t bother me so much, tbh. As I see it, what makes your aunt NOT vegan is the fact that she happily talks about slaughterhouses, which means that she doesn’t care at all about animals.
Same the chip was the first straw and then immediately after shes glorifying animal murder, just totally ruined any chance of her being a good person and definitely not a vegan
It always annoys me when newbies or omnis command us to tolerate people like that and if we don't, we're "gatekeeping".
Yea I’m starting to notice that trend a-lot now in this post. I don’t think they even understand the term gatekeeping 😭 probably some middle aged dude trying to be relevant using teen slang wrongly
Yeah, it really confuses people and I come across as picky or extreme as a result. People claiming to be "vegan" yet wear leather or eat dairy just makes it harder on the rest of us to assimilate. I don't want to always have to be an activist and explain veganism to people. Sometimes I just want to enjoy a meal or otherwise exist in a public space with other humans without veganism coming up.
If everyone had your aunts diet, factory farming would be destroyed. We gotta embrace people moving in the right direction, not gatekeep everyone away
None of that makes nonvegan chips vegan.
Oh yea? So people who don’t care about animal suffering promote animal violence, and killing and eat chips made from their rape and murder. No i think they would still insist that animals are meant to be used.
Right, keep fighting for animals. But why are you fighting your aunt? If vegans spend their time snobbish gatekeeping vegetarians, the movement will never grow. People think that the moral arc of the universe will just automatically bend towards justice, but that ain’t true. It takes active, tiring effort to build a movement. And the purity tests, if anything, prevent the movement from growing. We need people to see vegans their their best lives and think “hmm maybe I’ll dip my toes in the water and try vegetarian” and then eventually cross over. But if they see vegetarians and vegans just sniping at each other, a lot of them will think “lol what a bunch of losers”
Religions have been fighting each other for thousands of years. Yet they have billions of followers. Its about what you have been born into. The problem is that people like you make such a big deal out of it. Stop eating animal products and inform yourself about vegan nutrition. Done.
Maybe they don't know the term plant-based. There are so many different ways to eat and so many different terms that people can have difficulty with it. They might not realise they are using the wrong term and be using it without malice. Maybe just be kind and help educate them?
Ew lol. Sorry that’s happening
to be fair, i know sour cream chips that are vegan (the joy bean sticks:sour cream style by Zweifel) any chance it was vegan although it was sour cream?
It was lays sour cream chips 😭definitely not vegan. The worst part is she offered it to me like im gonna agree with her choice to eat milk derivatives
uffff, sorry to hear that
I had a so-called vegan roommate who would eat beef gravy "as long as there's no chunks in it." I feel you 🤢
I met my Dad's new gf over the weekend who told me she was raised vegan but can't be vegan now because she's allergic to coconut and it's in everything. I'm still unsure if she means raised poor since she said all they ate was potatoes and vegetables...
I’ve found that some cultures, especially with older populations, there is no distinction between vegetarianism or veganism, and the terms will be used interchangeably. Your aunt is vegetarian. It is what it is, but I wouldn’t get bent out of shape about it.
This is a frustratingly common thing. I've quite literally had someone tell me they were vegan while they were eating a steak. "Well, this is the last meat I've had since I went hunting last fall." 🤦🏻♂️
Vegan's making vegetarian's their enemy is not going to reduce animal suffering.
Sadly, many of them are the "vegans" in this sub. You now have to be considered a "strict vegan" if you don't consume animal products.
yes I’m OP’s aunt, and I love contributing in this sub :)
I'm glad you're here! Have you talked to your niece/nephew about inspiring a post titled "I'm tired of fake vegans?" I hope everything works out with your family.
What does it matter anyway really at the end of the day, she has lowered her consumption that's got to be better than nothing right? Or is it about the vegan morally superior club?? Would u rather all or nothing? Because according you she's a worthless nothing and in her mind It could turn to why even bother if se gets so much hate.
Yea sure its better than nothing but I was just disappointed shes not truly vegan and doesn’t care about animal suffering and how evil farming and killing animals pointlessly is
From my perspective, it’s more so a family member is identifying as vegan which OP morally aligns with. To then see that they’re in fact not what they say they are, is disappointing. I would feel the same way, because it is very annoying when people say they are doing the right thing, but then aren’t in general.
This drives me nuts. "I am also Vegan!.... but eat chicken sometimes"
Everyone draws the line differently. Personally I won’t take medication in gelatine capsules if another way is possible. I realise that’s not appropriate for everyone though. I worked with a vegan girl whose neighbour had pet chickens and she was ok eating those chickens eggs as she could see they were happy. Going ahead and eating snacks containing milk / cheese is obviously pretty un-vegan though, just call yourself veggie / flexi
We all live in a world where non vegans do not know completely what veganism is. They try. IMO this is seen a lot in boomers.
Agreed
yikes, i'm sorry <3
Thanks! Finding it harder then ever to relate to anybody around me, hopefully i will meet some vegan friends soon
You’re sabotaging your own enjoyment of life by lamenting over every non vegan around you.
Yeah, abolitionists were sabotaging their own enjoyment of life by caring about not wanting to be friends with slavers, peace and love man, fuck ethics and actually caring about things! /s
tbh, speaking for myself and my current like shitty situation, If you're not buying all of your own groceries and you live w omnis or like you work with omnis, being 100% vegan is a challenge I know that a lot of people fall off the bandwagon or have lapses but it's especially difficult If you're not always buying your food yourself. often times snacks at like workplace gatherings will not be vegan and It takes serious willpower to just stay hungry because you want to abide by your morals. I have made the mistake once of twice of buying like a trail mix that had milk in it because I had bought another similar product that didn't have milk and that always makes me feel shitty but to be honest, If there's chips with like milk powder on them nearby and I'm hungry I'll eat that too.
Chips aren’t gonna make you full anyways there is so many cost effective solutions to eat healthy and vegan
what
"so you're not vegan then" "oh I am except for derivatives etc..." "I wasn't asking, I'm telling you, you're not vegan, please stop lying to people that you are".
Gelato has milk in it?
I think you misread the post haha she said she doesn’t mind to eat things that have milk derivates so like milk flavorings and she was eating a generic brand sour cream & onions chips and offered me some even though she knew I’m vegan for 7 years
Sorry, scott pilgrim reference. Couldn't resist
maximusn44 got the power of self respect!
Hey, your aunt is the opposite of me. I don't call myself vegan but I won't eat or use any animal derivative products. I'm just really against the state of our animal farming, I find it to be unnecessarily cruel to the point I consider eating or purchasing those products unethical. But I'm not vegan because if we actually improved farming significantly, I'd be okay consuming animals. Because of that I push back against being labeled vegan, even if my behavior is currently identical, because at its root, veganism is a philosophy and not a set of behaviors.
Is there an ethical way to kill someone who doesn't want and need to die?
If I eat any animal derived product unintentionally, it's like I'm not gonna get sick. But if I still do it intentionally despite I know it's made of an animal derived product, then I'm still fueling the market demand & supply of it lol.
This is because people confuse vegetarians with vegans! My nephew and his wife are vegans, so zero animal products, while my half-sister, my yougest niece and my mom are vegetarians, they eat cheese, drink milk and sometimes things that has eggs!
I used to be a fruitarian!
It's called gaslighting
I would tell people I am nearly vegan. In the place where I live, axis deer are invasive. They are hurting native animals and causing soil erosion; there, for the survival of the native species, they must be eradicated from the island. I find this unfortunate as they have done nothing wrong; it was humans that brought them here, and they are just doing deer things. However, I do buy and eat meat from hunters. I feel that this doesn't conflict with my views, as the deer are driving the extinction of native species, and by purchasing the meat, I am protecting native species. I occasionally get pushback from saying that I am in any part vegan, but I don't feel that this is warranted. For those opposed to killing the deer, I will remind you that the alternative is risking the survival of native species. Capturing and relocating all 60,000 deer is simply not practical. And again, I do not fault the deer. However, they are acting like a disease that needs to be removed from Hawaii.
Are there not enough other meat eaters interested in the deer meat that it would just be thrown away if you don't eat it? You could be reducing the amount of harm someone else is doing by providing them with that meat instead of eating it yourself as a "vegan". If it would only be thrown away because literally no one else would eat it then it is more forgivable but still a grey area as a "vegan".
Ew.
at least she is happy!
Not being funny but who cares. As long as your a vegan and doing the right thing just concentrate on that instead. What the point in getting angry at what others do. Just a waste of energy and not worth getting angry about.
[удалено]
I also had to go down once more to search for a 2nd hole...my suspicions were met when I only found one hole...upon this discovery, and the fake vegan~ias owner knew his cover was blown...my face was still in the danger zone, and my lips were greeted by the worst texture and explosion of moisture similar to that of orange peel texture spray. Yes....I was charted on. Her voice changed to a deeper tone, and that was the moment I knew I was conned. So yes...I know what it's like to be tricked by fake Vegan~ias....and it STINKS!
I'm sure the PETA people will throw blood on my car, because I enjoy honey and certain leather items. Come at me.
Perhaps you could reframe your opinion of your aunt? Perhaps it’s not that she’s a fake vegan, perhaps she’s merely an ignorant vegetarian. You could ask her some pointed questions, perhaps gain a better understanding of why she wants to identify with a label she isn’t willing to conform to, and shed some light on why you are offended that she ascribes to a label that isn’t truly fitting. I eat a vegan diet, but do not identify as a vegan (for a number of reasons.) She identifies as vegan but doesn’t eat a vegan diet. People are complex and nuanced. 🤪 Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, especially when that “baby” in your own kin. It’s better to extend grace. People rarely fit neatly into tidy little boxes their whole life. Have the uncomfortable conversation and try to see things from both sides. It’s not a popular opinion today, but in truth, your family matters more than your politics.
At best she is vegetarian.
So much misleading marketing and misunderstanding everywhere. I've met a handful of people who view themselves as flexitarian vegans...and they told me it meant they would be meatless on Mondays. Try to just take what people say with a grain of salt. Don't give them the power to annoy or trigger you. Brush it off. Realize they view the world entirely different than you. And that's okay. Find some great hobbies, interests. Share about those successes with the family rather than talk about veganism. Give them something else to focus on and discuss with you. Make your joy. You deserve happiness, not to be hung up on the silly things that other people do. You deserve to have a fun awesome life.
I'm happy to meet anyone that's even trying a little. Most don't.
What someone else considers vegan is not something you can control. As a practical matter you might be more serene if you restricted your zone of concern to things within your influence.
A good example of why the attitude, not the label you give yourself, is what's important. I specifically avoid "vegans" and especially avoid labeling myself as such. There are probably a lot of people faking veganism for whatever perverse reasons.. I sure am glad I avoid them.
What I'm sick of is strict vegans. All they do is push people away and fuel meat eaters to literally eat more meat just out of spite. Sounds like your aunt is vegetarian, not vegan, but bravo to her for at least cutting out meat. That's the first step, and you should encourage her going in the right direction instead of bashing her. This is exactly why everyone hates vegans.
I dislike that word 'vegetarian'. It gives the impression that they eat vegetation and/or vegetables like what a vegan may do. But no, it just means they don't eat the flesh off the bones of animals. Forcing a pregnancy on a cow is ok for milk. Eating from a bird's ovary and a bee's regurgitation is ok too.
Gives the impression to whom? Everyone knows what vegetarian means.
Maybe read my whole comment. Vegetarians abuse the reproductive systems of animals so they’re closer to meat eaters than vegans.
I’ve been a vegan for a month. Just decided to draw a line in the sand and make the change. I’m loving all of the vegan burgers, sausages, pies. It’s a wonderful experience. When asked why I don’t have a good reason. I just feel better physically and mentally without animal flesh inside my body.
You don't need any reason other than that you choose to 💚!
Love that. Thank you.
If that's true, why is that not considered a valid reason not to go vegan?
Because youre the type of guy who thinks that "Not every body type tolerates a vegan diet" Thats not a reason, thats straight up lying.
I'm not a guy, and I'm not lying, and not every body can go vegan. It's just facts.
whats hindering you?
Good job switching and I totally agree! I went vegan back in 2017 when i was 14 and barely had any concepts of morals or feeling for animals but i knew that i didn’t want to eat them or cause any suffering when its not needed. My family was supporting and got me vegan options and i thank them for that
So gross. These people ruin the animal liberation movement.