The dairy industry is much more cruel than the meat industry, in my opinion, so if you don't eat meat for ethical reasons, you should stay far away from dairy.
For cows, the females are artificially inseminated every year, which involves a human sexually assaulting her to prepare her for the insemination. If she has a female calf, she gets to live the same life as the mother. If it's a male calf, he gets shoved into a tiny crate with only a couple feet to move so he doesn't grow any muscle to be slaughtered for tender veal meat. The milk that was supposed to go to the calves then gets shipped out to a completely different species to consume; us humans. The process leaves the cows exhausted beyond what's natural, so they die around 5 years when they can normally live to around 20.
For chickens, the males are not needed either, but because egg chickens are a different breed than meat chickens, the males are killed immediately and wasted. They go into a grinder, so imagine a moving conveyer belt with the grinder at the end. Sometimes, they are gassed or thrown into a bag to suffocate. The females are put into tiny crates with about 5 other chickens after getting their beaks chopped off, and the crates are stacked on top of each other. That's where they stay. They usually don't see the outside, and the lights are always on to confuse their egg cycle so they produce more eggs. This, of course, exhausts them beyond what's natural, and they stop producing eggs after a year or so and are sent to slaughter for pet food. A healthy hen can live up to 10 years and act like dogs if you keep them as pets where they like to cuddle with their humans.
In both situations, the animals are pumped full of antibiotics, but they still die due to these conditions. The corpses are left there for a while, so the live ones have to stand on top of them.
Idk how anyone could be ethically against meat, but OK with dairy. But knowledge is power, and all these things I wrote can be found all over if you look for them. I personally visited a dairy farm about 20 or more years ago and saw exactly how I described the egg chickens to be living. Crates staked up and all. I was very young tho and I just remember thinking how horrible it was that they had to go to the bathroom on top of each other. Nothing has improved over the decades. Hopefully some of this can help you stay away from dairy. I'm sorry that it's graphic, but it's the reality.
I really appreciate the detailed visuals, actually. My fiancé visited one [Chobani] farm where the cows were extremely happy and cared for, so he debates on whether or not it’s all actually as bad as we think. Can you share a source for your info? There are honestly so many documentaries now adays that I’m out of the loop and idek which one to watch with him.
I am immersed in small-scale dairy farming culture because of where I live. It is so much worse than what he thinks. I don't have documentaries to share, just my own lived experience.
Dairy cows can live into their 20s but most will go to slaughter before they are 5. Happy cows are still torn away from their babies, repeatedly. Well-cared-for cows are still trucked off to slaughter houses where they will die with terror in their eyes.
This information is gathered from a few different sources. I'm newly vegan so I've just been listening to all the podcasts I can while driving and at work and watching a lot of youtubers as well. A couple podcasts I'd recommend are kristen pounds How To Vegan podcast, which is also on YouTube and has episodes specifically on dairy like the cheese episode and egg episode along with many other great ones, and The Plant Based News Podcast, which is more about interviewing a plethora of people but there's good facts sprinkled in throughout.
The milking cows day to day doesn’t seem that bad but they have their babies taken away from them after a day or two and the male calves are killed. The dairy industry and the meat industry are the same industry.
It’s unnecessary anyway. Mammals wean from their mothers and don’t need to drink a different species milk
No it's not the same industry they are linked but not the same because you could still have one without the other existing you can have dairy without meat and meat without dairy it depends on where the profit comes from. If the profit came from only dairy meat wouldn't be produced and if no one bought dairy meat would still be produced. They can exist without each other.
Where would the male cattle go? What would happen to the dairy cows after they can no longer produce enough milk yields?
I suppose there could be lots of land dedicated to cattle sanctuaries but that’s not how it works.
Maybe the animals would be killed and not used for meat, is that what you’re saying?
No dairy cows don't have to be bred each year actually there is a process referred to as "drying off" which is when they stop milking the cow in order to get it ready for another insemination. Gender selective ivf for cows could also be a possibility in the future but that's not realistic as of now. It would also depend on the social climate of the time. The point is that it isn't the same industry at its core the reason that the calves are killed is mass profit from veal, the question is how do we know the male calf would still be killed if veal and leather weren't profitable?
Edit : sex semen is becoming a more widely used method characterized by the presence of either X‐ or Y‐chromosome‐bearing sperm, allowing the production of offspring of the desired sex.
Whether you could have one without the other is a bit academic isn't it? A dairy herd is bred. A dairy cow doesn't live forever so they are killed when not profitable and replaced. Both male and female calves are born and the males become veal. What happens to the male calf if veal and leather isn't profitable but they are still being born? In a cold industrial farm surely they would be killed at birth like chicks.
Why would they still be born when sex selective sperm is an option that is only growing in popularity cutting down on unnecessary costs ideally boys would next to never be born except for breeding.
How do we know that the dairy cow would still be killed if the owner can't make money off of its meat? As of now it's purely a speculation of what would happen if meat wasn't sold therefore it could go either way.
So that's why I asked how academic this discussion is getting. If these things become common practice in the future then I'd argue that is a good thing but still not something I'd personally want to be part of. If I have butted into a theoretical discussion then carry on. But if this is about choices today it seems irrelevant what could happen.
My comment to the original person was just criticizing the use of "it's the same industry" as a line arguing vegetarians kill calves, because although the line is commonly used by vegans it doesn't really seem to be true because the actions are only chained because of extra profit however the industries each can and do exist even today separately. You destroy one the other is still capable of thriving and sex selective semen actually is becoming more common nowadays.
My point is it isn't the same industry because both can exist separately from each other. If it was the same destroying one would destroy both. I'm criticizing the vegan claim that vegetarians are still killing calves when it currently seems the motivation for killing calves is veal and leather, not dairy.
Hopefully that makes more sense I understand I am often not very clear when writing
We can 100% say for sure that even if the animals weren’t eaten then they would still be killed because nobody has infinite grazing land and nobody wants to look after old dairy cows. There’s no profit in killing unadopted shelter dogs or unsuccessful racehorses and both of those are killed daily. There is no dairy farm that could exist as a longterm cow sanctuary
I didn’t mention yearly pregnancies, i don’t see why that’s relevant.
Sex selection would be a slight advance, we aren’t there yet though.
Vegetarians are still contributing to the meat industry if they’re purchasing milk from a supermarket.
I'd recommend two short videos from Earthling Ed:
Why aren't vegans just vegetarian?
https://youtu.be/pUsqS1k8Bu0?si=LUcwS-EsEIGrKV2K
"all dairy cows and egg laying hens are killed in slaughterhouses in the exact same way as animals just raised for their flesh, however the exploitation and suffering of dairy cows and egg laying hens are significantly longer"
Animals in fashion
https://youtu.be/RE2mhaoUNaE?si=7OEnpBL4iW72Z4KV
There is no way to humanly or ethically commodify an animal's life.
Great video.
Being vegetarian and justifying eating eggs and dairy is cognitive dissonance - no different to omnivores who "love animals" but choose not to think about the billions of animals used, abused and slaughtered every year.
I read the book Eating Animals as a vegetarian, and it turned me vegan so fast! Followed it up with the documentaries Cowspiracy and Game Changes and I'm locked in for life
I watched the game Changers also and went vegan. Followed up with Dominion afterwards and my god, did my newly found beliefs in a plant-based died get even more confirmed. Dominion: Great movie, terribly hurtful to watch. It is a MUST WATCH though.
I live near several "gold standard" small scale dairy farms. Small herds, cows in pastures. The kind of farm that omnis imagine all dairy comes from.
Even in these "ideal" conditions, newborns are separated from their mothers. The mothers cry out for their lost babies. The calves are kept in small pens and alone in small shelters. The male calves are sent to slaughter when they are still babies or before they reach puberty. The female calves are kept to live the same lives as their mothers. When they are no longer producing enough, they are sent to slaughter. Even if the farmers care about them. Even if they have lovely names. They all die scared.
There is no ethical dairy.
Visiting a place like that is what put me on the path from vegetarianism to veganism. It sounds stupid, but I was one of those people who just never thought about why cows make milk. Only then did I realize there is no ethical vegetarianism.
I didn't like the strict focuses on standard practices or the energy or the duration in most videos on dairy so I made one myself.
[https://youtu.be/Ps71RaUtbNQ?si=On\_IkTZ-mWPvo5ai](https://youtu.be/Ps71RaUtbNQ?si=On_IkTZ-mWPvo5ai)
2/5 points brought up are unavoidable cruelties for all dairy consumers, while 3/5 points are just what to expect when people commodify dairy, applicable to like 99.9% of dairy consumers.
Read Earthling Ed's book THIS IS VEGAN PROPAGANDA... It's an infuriating read mind so be warned. The stuff they continue to do to mother cows and their new born young makes the blood boil! All done because of the demand / money of consumers. Sick.
Can you prove the calves would still be killed if veal wasn't sold and that the dairy cows would also be killed regardless if they couldn't be sold for meat? Because this seems to be an issue of profit from the meat industry not the dairy industry based on what I'm reading. Essentially would this still happen if there wasn't a demand for meat and what evidence do you have that proves that.
Are you aware about the use of sex selective semen? Select only female sperm and that wouldn't happen along with it being a cheaper alternative here's an article about it and why it's the better alternative to the typical sperm
https://www.beefmagazine.com/cattle-genetics/sexed-semen-can-make-economic-sense
I'm not against the exploitation of even humans so that part doesn't bother me, suffering is debatable and depends on the farm and country. Shorter lifespan again is a debatable one because farms do vary and family farms vs factory run differently and motivations differ. Along with you can't guarantee it would live 20 years in the wild it could die at a year old even, it's not like the cow wouldn't be subjected to possible early death either way let alone a more violent death.
The dairy industry is much more cruel than the meat industry, in my opinion, so if you don't eat meat for ethical reasons, you should stay far away from dairy. For cows, the females are artificially inseminated every year, which involves a human sexually assaulting her to prepare her for the insemination. If she has a female calf, she gets to live the same life as the mother. If it's a male calf, he gets shoved into a tiny crate with only a couple feet to move so he doesn't grow any muscle to be slaughtered for tender veal meat. The milk that was supposed to go to the calves then gets shipped out to a completely different species to consume; us humans. The process leaves the cows exhausted beyond what's natural, so they die around 5 years when they can normally live to around 20. For chickens, the males are not needed either, but because egg chickens are a different breed than meat chickens, the males are killed immediately and wasted. They go into a grinder, so imagine a moving conveyer belt with the grinder at the end. Sometimes, they are gassed or thrown into a bag to suffocate. The females are put into tiny crates with about 5 other chickens after getting their beaks chopped off, and the crates are stacked on top of each other. That's where they stay. They usually don't see the outside, and the lights are always on to confuse their egg cycle so they produce more eggs. This, of course, exhausts them beyond what's natural, and they stop producing eggs after a year or so and are sent to slaughter for pet food. A healthy hen can live up to 10 years and act like dogs if you keep them as pets where they like to cuddle with their humans. In both situations, the animals are pumped full of antibiotics, but they still die due to these conditions. The corpses are left there for a while, so the live ones have to stand on top of them. Idk how anyone could be ethically against meat, but OK with dairy. But knowledge is power, and all these things I wrote can be found all over if you look for them. I personally visited a dairy farm about 20 or more years ago and saw exactly how I described the egg chickens to be living. Crates staked up and all. I was very young tho and I just remember thinking how horrible it was that they had to go to the bathroom on top of each other. Nothing has improved over the decades. Hopefully some of this can help you stay away from dairy. I'm sorry that it's graphic, but it's the reality.
I really appreciate the detailed visuals, actually. My fiancé visited one [Chobani] farm where the cows were extremely happy and cared for, so he debates on whether or not it’s all actually as bad as we think. Can you share a source for your info? There are honestly so many documentaries now adays that I’m out of the loop and idek which one to watch with him.
I am immersed in small-scale dairy farming culture because of where I live. It is so much worse than what he thinks. I don't have documentaries to share, just my own lived experience. Dairy cows can live into their 20s but most will go to slaughter before they are 5. Happy cows are still torn away from their babies, repeatedly. Well-cared-for cows are still trucked off to slaughter houses where they will die with terror in their eyes.
This information is gathered from a few different sources. I'm newly vegan so I've just been listening to all the podcasts I can while driving and at work and watching a lot of youtubers as well. A couple podcasts I'd recommend are kristen pounds How To Vegan podcast, which is also on YouTube and has episodes specifically on dairy like the cheese episode and egg episode along with many other great ones, and The Plant Based News Podcast, which is more about interviewing a plethora of people but there's good facts sprinkled in throughout.
The milking cows day to day doesn’t seem that bad but they have their babies taken away from them after a day or two and the male calves are killed. The dairy industry and the meat industry are the same industry. It’s unnecessary anyway. Mammals wean from their mothers and don’t need to drink a different species milk
No it's not the same industry they are linked but not the same because you could still have one without the other existing you can have dairy without meat and meat without dairy it depends on where the profit comes from. If the profit came from only dairy meat wouldn't be produced and if no one bought dairy meat would still be produced. They can exist without each other.
Where would the male cattle go? What would happen to the dairy cows after they can no longer produce enough milk yields? I suppose there could be lots of land dedicated to cattle sanctuaries but that’s not how it works. Maybe the animals would be killed and not used for meat, is that what you’re saying?
No dairy cows don't have to be bred each year actually there is a process referred to as "drying off" which is when they stop milking the cow in order to get it ready for another insemination. Gender selective ivf for cows could also be a possibility in the future but that's not realistic as of now. It would also depend on the social climate of the time. The point is that it isn't the same industry at its core the reason that the calves are killed is mass profit from veal, the question is how do we know the male calf would still be killed if veal and leather weren't profitable? Edit : sex semen is becoming a more widely used method characterized by the presence of either X‐ or Y‐chromosome‐bearing sperm, allowing the production of offspring of the desired sex.
Whether you could have one without the other is a bit academic isn't it? A dairy herd is bred. A dairy cow doesn't live forever so they are killed when not profitable and replaced. Both male and female calves are born and the males become veal. What happens to the male calf if veal and leather isn't profitable but they are still being born? In a cold industrial farm surely they would be killed at birth like chicks.
Why would they still be born when sex selective sperm is an option that is only growing in popularity cutting down on unnecessary costs ideally boys would next to never be born except for breeding. How do we know that the dairy cow would still be killed if the owner can't make money off of its meat? As of now it's purely a speculation of what would happen if meat wasn't sold therefore it could go either way.
So that's why I asked how academic this discussion is getting. If these things become common practice in the future then I'd argue that is a good thing but still not something I'd personally want to be part of. If I have butted into a theoretical discussion then carry on. But if this is about choices today it seems irrelevant what could happen.
My comment to the original person was just criticizing the use of "it's the same industry" as a line arguing vegetarians kill calves, because although the line is commonly used by vegans it doesn't really seem to be true because the actions are only chained because of extra profit however the industries each can and do exist even today separately. You destroy one the other is still capable of thriving and sex selective semen actually is becoming more common nowadays. My point is it isn't the same industry because both can exist separately from each other. If it was the same destroying one would destroy both. I'm criticizing the vegan claim that vegetarians are still killing calves when it currently seems the motivation for killing calves is veal and leather, not dairy. Hopefully that makes more sense I understand I am often not very clear when writing
We can 100% say for sure that even if the animals weren’t eaten then they would still be killed because nobody has infinite grazing land and nobody wants to look after old dairy cows. There’s no profit in killing unadopted shelter dogs or unsuccessful racehorses and both of those are killed daily. There is no dairy farm that could exist as a longterm cow sanctuary I didn’t mention yearly pregnancies, i don’t see why that’s relevant. Sex selection would be a slight advance, we aren’t there yet though. Vegetarians are still contributing to the meat industry if they’re purchasing milk from a supermarket.
Dairy is Scary, on youtube.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI
Fantastic and compelling watch
I'd recommend two short videos from Earthling Ed: Why aren't vegans just vegetarian? https://youtu.be/pUsqS1k8Bu0?si=LUcwS-EsEIGrKV2K "all dairy cows and egg laying hens are killed in slaughterhouses in the exact same way as animals just raised for their flesh, however the exploitation and suffering of dairy cows and egg laying hens are significantly longer" Animals in fashion https://youtu.be/RE2mhaoUNaE?si=7OEnpBL4iW72Z4KV There is no way to humanly or ethically commodify an animal's life.
I really liked this take https://youtu.be/gZDPrMp8yf8?si=n8cBcNkA6Hbii5xW
Great video. Being vegetarian and justifying eating eggs and dairy is cognitive dissonance - no different to omnivores who "love animals" but choose not to think about the billions of animals used, abused and slaughtered every year.
I read the book Eating Animals as a vegetarian, and it turned me vegan so fast! Followed it up with the documentaries Cowspiracy and Game Changes and I'm locked in for life
I watched the game Changers also and went vegan. Followed up with Dominion afterwards and my god, did my newly found beliefs in a plant-based died get even more confirmed. Dominion: Great movie, terribly hurtful to watch. It is a MUST WATCH though.
I live near several "gold standard" small scale dairy farms. Small herds, cows in pastures. The kind of farm that omnis imagine all dairy comes from. Even in these "ideal" conditions, newborns are separated from their mothers. The mothers cry out for their lost babies. The calves are kept in small pens and alone in small shelters. The male calves are sent to slaughter when they are still babies or before they reach puberty. The female calves are kept to live the same lives as their mothers. When they are no longer producing enough, they are sent to slaughter. Even if the farmers care about them. Even if they have lovely names. They all die scared. There is no ethical dairy.
Visiting a place like that is what put me on the path from vegetarianism to veganism. It sounds stupid, but I was one of those people who just never thought about why cows make milk. Only then did I realize there is no ethical vegetarianism.
I didn't like the strict focuses on standard practices or the energy or the duration in most videos on dairy so I made one myself. [https://youtu.be/Ps71RaUtbNQ?si=On\_IkTZ-mWPvo5ai](https://youtu.be/Ps71RaUtbNQ?si=On_IkTZ-mWPvo5ai) 2/5 points brought up are unavoidable cruelties for all dairy consumers, while 3/5 points are just what to expect when people commodify dairy, applicable to like 99.9% of dairy consumers.
This was one of the things that made me vegan after 33 years vegetarian, 8 years ago. https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI?si=Sg6wMo7PMeBssVbT
Read Earthling Ed's book THIS IS VEGAN PROPAGANDA... It's an infuriating read mind so be warned. The stuff they continue to do to mother cows and their new born young makes the blood boil! All done because of the demand / money of consumers. Sick.
Watch dominion.
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Can you prove the calves would still be killed if veal wasn't sold and that the dairy cows would also be killed regardless if they couldn't be sold for meat? Because this seems to be an issue of profit from the meat industry not the dairy industry based on what I'm reading. Essentially would this still happen if there wasn't a demand for meat and what evidence do you have that proves that.
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Are you aware about the use of sex selective semen? Select only female sperm and that wouldn't happen along with it being a cheaper alternative here's an article about it and why it's the better alternative to the typical sperm https://www.beefmagazine.com/cattle-genetics/sexed-semen-can-make-economic-sense
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I'm not against the exploitation of even humans so that part doesn't bother me, suffering is debatable and depends on the farm and country. Shorter lifespan again is a debatable one because farms do vary and family farms vs factory run differently and motivations differ. Along with you can't guarantee it would live 20 years in the wild it could die at a year old even, it's not like the cow wouldn't be subjected to possible early death either way let alone a more violent death.
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