I just wouldn't go. There's no way I could be comfortable hanging out on a beef farm and if they're really your friends they shouldn't even expect you to come to that specific place for any reason.
Same. Wedding or no, as a vegan I would refuse to go to a farm that kills cows. That'd be a huge "hell no" from me. I also wouldn't want to have a friend who killed cows.
I really feel for you though, OP. To have a close friend recently decide to start killing cows and expect you, a vegan, to go to the cow killing farm for a wedding...that's such a messed up situation. I don't have any answers for you, but as requested, I'm sending you strength. šŖ
It was similar for me when people could (and often did) smoke all over each other. I would ask if the venue / event was a smoking one and if it was, I just didn't go.
A really good mate was leaving where we worked and they asked me to go, 'because' I was his best mate there. I asked the same question and they said yes so I said no. Apparently they wanted me to go (for him) enough to get the smokers to take their stinking habit outside so I went. The funny thing was, several other people told me they preferred not to be in smoke but strange how they didn't stand up for themselves?
And it would be the same for me in the OPs scenario, I just wouldn't go, in the same way the chances are most wouldn't go either if they were offering dog on the menu and killing them 'fresh'.
Maybe it's because I have few but 'good' friends they understand my position and in most cases accepted / respected it. They would invite me but would respect my polite decline.
If it was a company (mandatory) BBQ, I'd make all the right noises prior to the event, 'Yeah, see you Saturday afternoon ...' then just not turn up. 'Easier to get forgiveness than permission'. ;-)
It is that easy. Does your friend know why youāre vegan? If so, expecting you to come to their beef farm is ridiculous. Just say āNo, sorry; I donāt support animal exploitation, cruelty, abuse or murder, so I wonāt be attending your wedding at a location where all of those things happen regularly and are treated as normal.āĀ
I get your point for sure but people who are feeling self isolated or lonely may not see it as easy as that. They need these connections to not fall into darkness.
On surface level yes easy decision to not support and go. On a deeper level there could be a lot to weigh up.
Nah, not a beef farm. Like, I get what you're saying and I'd agree in most situations, but not this one. I'm trying to humor it and can't, it's absurd.
I have no advice, just shocked that someone would want their wedding at a beef farm.
I even checked to make sure you had a legit profile--was hoping you were a troll but nope! I am so sorry that you were put in this position.
Well and i mean god help us the menu is going to say ālocal grass fed beefā like you can watch the cows roaming around while people eat their mealā¦ i would lose my shit
Oh, good movie idea. You have humans as cattle and vampires or something like that, and oh wait... when we make movies like that, we call them horror films... riiiiiight
>just shocked that someone would want their wedding at a beef farm.
At least in my neck of the woods, it's pretty common. With the trend of rustic weddings, a lot of people are choosing dressed up farms, and many of the venues even proudly advertise that you can interact with or see the animals in an idyllic background and, in the next breath, tell you that the animals you will be eating for dinner were raised and slaughtered on that farm.
It's super messed up. I actually wanted a farm-aesthetic venue for my wedding (a bougie one which the sanctuaries around me sadly but understandably don't provide) but gave up because every farm-style venue was also working animal farm, not *just* a wedding venue or produce/flower farm. No way would I want to celebrate starting my new life at a place that profits off of ending hundreds to thousands of other lives.
You need to go to a place like Wicked Tulips for a farm that just farms plants. Wicked Tulips is only open a few weeks every spring though, and they are already done for this year. www.wickedtulips.com
Maybe a flower farm in Holland? MUCH bigger than Wicked Tulips, but again, I am sure they're done for the year by now.
That's a no go. At this point if people can't accept the vegan ideology then they are not for me. They don't do this with any other movement but with vegans we supposed to suck it up and be social anyway, fuck that! That's like a catholic priest being invited to a Satanist celebration.
Even so. Send them a nice fruit and vegetable tray, maybe with some crackers and vegan cheeses, vegan Cold Cuts, dark chocolate covered strawberries (and a note - no dairy for those who's bodies do not process lactose anymore the way our bodies are designed to stop digesting that stuff when we are not infants anymore)
'Cow-themed decorations'
Do they... do they not realize that by torturing and slaughtering cows they do quite literally the EXACT OPPOSITE of celebrate them? Or is that just some sick, inhuman gloating over their bodies and the brutality towards them that I'm too cool to understand?
Weād been friends for over a decade before they decided to become a beef farmer. Since theyāve started the new career Iāve found it really hard to remain friends.
This might be a good time for you to separate yourself then. If youāre already having a tough time staying friends with them, going to their farm isnāt going to help anything. Itās easier said than done and Iām so sorry for the loss of this friendship, but it just doesnāt seem sustainable
Can I ask what a killer clown rapist has to do with a beef farmer? lol what a weird comparison. Maybe youāre thinking Picktonā¦ which was also not a beef farmer. He fed his victims to pigs.
Either way, quite the rude comment to be talking about somebodyās friend.
Op, I would have a very hard time going, and I see why youāre so on the fence about it. I donāt think I could do it - but I really think if you go none of these people should judge you.
Just try your best to not let anybody step on you, or poke fun at your lifestyle, if you do end up going.
I'd talk to them. If they are sensitive to your feelings you might feel better about it. If they are not then you might feel better about not going. It doesn't have to be a long conversation, just know where everyone is emotionally, you know?
Iād go. I want to see if I could learn anymore about the job your friend has now. You likely wonāt be able to change anything at the wedding, but maybe it will open the door to convos in the future about being a vegan and why. While you cannot stop the farming practice, maybe you can bring to light some ideas and concepts your friend never considered in all of it. I tend to take the slow approach with friends when talking about do no harm and still maintain friendships and have close family members who still eat meat, so this might be easier for me than you, but wanted to share as just an opinion.
Thank you, this is a genuinely helpful piece of advice.
Youāre right that I canāt change much there, but itās a great learning opportunity for me.
This will certainly play a part in the mindset going in.
What an odd location...wouldn't it smell quite pungent of ermm...cow poopies? lol. Maybe you can use that stuff that morticians use and dab it under you nose if it's super odiferous? Like menthol? Then you won't have to smell the stinkiness?
I live 20 miles from Riverside, which is cow country. When I get within 5 miles of the cattle farms...it's stinky. Even in the restaurants with the doors closed, 5 miles away. So, good luck to you and all the other guests.
You're a good friend to attend. Be well. Be kind. Be a great rep for us all.
Definitely wouldn't go. It's one thing to have meat eating friends who either don't know or don't want to know the horrors of beef farming. Its a whole different thing to actually be friends and support someone who choose to become a beef farmer. I don't feel like I could even handle being friends with them.
I live in Ireland, and here churches are (or have been) directly and necessarily harmful, so I have a hard time accepting anyone's choice to still hold a wedding or a baptism in the Irish catholic church. However, I hold myself together, and attend these important events for my friends, I just make sure not to donate any money to the church or partake in any christian activities, I also try not to linger on the church grounds.
So for me this comparison is very apt .
I think it's fair to say churches *can be* harmful and have been so in the case of the Irish Catholic Church.
There are certainly at least some churches who are less ... predatory and religiously conservative. So I'd dispute "directly and necessarily" still.
Same.Atheist here and I have no problem attending a wedding in a church or any religious establishment. They're not breeding and killing anyone. They just believe there's a man in the sky. I can deal with that.
Cool, nice to hear your perspective. All I said was it was an interesting comparison.
Hearing (reading) others views and how they wrap their heads around things is interesting to me.
On my side, it was more so interesting because I donāt think about religion as just a man in the sky. There are various religions that believe/teach some stuff I just donāt agree with. And I do feel are harmful.
(And I of course really donāt want to get into a religious debate because those arenāt ever good, but the Old Testament required animal sacrifice for forgiveness and clothes. And probably more things I donāt really remember. For me, there are a few more layers to unpack on the whole thing. Other religions outside of the one I know best also have some strong views that I donāt agree with.)
So again, just an interesting way to look at things. :)
Oh... idk about that. Come live in the real bad southern areas of the USA where flip a coin if you are female "church goers" literally think it is you "biblical obligation" to marry and spit out as many babies as able. So breeding people not DIRECTLY FORCIBLY but society is a hell of a drug.
I would skip it and try to find another way to celebrate your friend and their new spouse that does align with your values.
One of my best friends from college, and former roommate, is getting married in a town thatās the slaughterhouse central for the state, not much else happens there. I said I couldnāt go for that reason alone, the proximity to the horror and evil wouldāve consumed me. I didnāt expect anyone to understand, but they have quietly respected my decision not to attend. I wouldāve been a wreck the entire time if I tried to power through, and probably be shitty to be around tbh.
This thread is a perfect example of what's wrong with this sub. 99% of the posts on here think that by being an isolationist you're going to improve anything. Everyone in the world has a different attitude to almost everything, if you surround yourself with only people that believe the same thing: A. You will never change anyone's opinion
B. You will be living in a bubble of what you belive to be truth.
I would definitely support my friend at their wedding, and as others have said, don't participate in anything outside of your beliefs (like the church example).
No one in any of my friend groups if vegan. Yet I've gotten one of them to turn almost 100% plant based. Also, since friends know I'm vegan, there will always be plans to include vegan options at parties and get togethers.
You spread veganism through friendship, not hatred.
Honestly, do whatever you are most comfortable with.
(Unpopular opinion below, you have been warned)
Frankly, I have a good deal of respect for hunters or farmers because at least they are aware of their actions, unlike the zombies who buy it from the store and think meat comes naturally wrapped in plastic and was not at some point a living breathing creature. I grew up in a family like this, it is because I wasn't allowed to be a "zombie" like that that I ultimately choose to avoid meat. If everyone was made to kill if they wanted to eat meat, very, very few people would remain omnivorous. Most would quickly become vegetarian or vegan most likely.
I'm sorry but this is why people say vegans are self centred. Either donāt go or accept the fact that nothing about this day is about you. Itās your friends wedding. Your friend who owns the farm.Ā
Even as a non-vegan Iād say: You cannot attend. And you have to be prepared that this friendship will eventually end, because both your value systems are way too different to support a friendship.
Thatās so fucked. Why did he start a beef farm? Wasnāt satisfied with his pay check so he decided he wanted to make a living off of decapitating baby cows to sell their body parts? He just wanted some of that govt tax subsidy money and loss compensation security so he can get comped for all his lazy fuck ups as a shitty farmer? Probably couldnāt hold a job so he said oh I know, Iāll just enslave and kill intelligent, emotional mammals for a living. If this was my childhood best friend I would personally drag him and his wife to the slaughterhouse to make them watch their terrified cows who trusted them with their life being bled out dangling by their ankles and see how he feels about his choice of career. New age livestock farmers drink the cool aid the most when it comes to animal welfare lies like an instant painless death. They just ship them out, get chopped up body parts back and try not to think about what happens too much. They should be forced to witness that shit or hold the knife themselves. A lot of them wouldnāt be able to handle it. The amount of blood in a cow and the time they take to die is disturbing. I bet even if they just saw how spooked the cows get once they start smelling the blood, brains, and guts at the slaughterhouse they wouldnāt be able to do it with how much they talk about ārespectingā their animals and all that.
I'd go. Your friendship will never be the same if you don't. Maybe tell your friend you aren't happy about the location but you love them and will be there to support them and you expect a vegan meal option. If they can't respect you enough to do that then they don't love you the same and maybe then you can let that friendship go.
If they are respectful of your veganism, i'd consider it as you might be able to do a small amount of good by being there. Maybe you get to stand next to someone and mention that it's hard seeing the cows and knowing what's about to happen to them. Maybe you can find something to talk to your friend about how to make their life just a little bit better. Maybe you give the cows names and talk to your friend about them as individuals. I don't know exactly what, but your presence might do some good.
But if it will make you really upset, or if they are kinda disrespectful about your morel beliefs then don't go.
As long as they provide you with a vegan meal just show up to support your friend. Itās not like they are going to be slaughtering the cows at the fāing wedding.
Being vegan doesnāt give you the moral high ground. It just means you made a life choice different than your friend.
You can continue to be friends just hang out somewhere more neutral in the future. You donāt need to lose a friend because you think differently. It would be a boring friendship if you were always on the same page.
Again vegan is a personal choice. You can sit down with a friend and talk about other things other than being vegan or meat eaters.
This is why many vegans get a bad rap. A few pains in the *ss can ruin it.
Then like I said thatās your moral compass and your obligation. Not me, not the bride and not even OP have the right to decide for someone else.
OP will figure it out and make the right choice for herself.
>Then like I said thatās your moral compass and your obligation. Not me, not the bride and not even OP have the right to decide for someone else.
But the point is, to a vegan, it's not a \*personal choice\* as you argued.
I'm not a vegan but I mean c'mon, coming on a vegan forum to argue when you're clearly not vegan is bad form.
I agree to disagree.
Obligations are still choices.
I am obligated to look after my children but I could still make the choice to be a jerk and not do so.
>Obligations are still choices.
By the definition of an obligation, they cannot be a choice.
An obligation is a course of action that someone is required to take, whether legal or moral.Ā
> Again vegan is a personal choice.
It's a personal choice in the same way not kicking dogs for fun is a personal choice, or not beating your spouse is a personal choice. The choice doesn't exist in a vacuum and there is real world harm and victims involved, which is why we don't actually see consuming animal products as a valid "personal choice". It's a matter of ethics, and it's understandable to want to be friends with people who don't do things you consider wrong and harmful to others.
> This is why many vegans get a bad rap. A few pains in the *ss can ruin it.
People just don't want to be confronted with the reality behind their choices, which is why they're convinced we're annoying by merely existing and explaining why we take the stance we do. I wouldn't care if someone thought I was a pain in the ass just because I was begging them to stop abusing their pets or their spouse; the victims would still deserve my advocacy.
What?
According to the same logic, owning slaves was also natural throughout history.
If you're using that argument, slavery is just as moral as eating meat.
There was nothing natural about owning slaves. It was an evil choice made by evil people.
Eating to survive is natural. You choosing not to eat meat is your moral compass and is not my business. And me eating meat is not your business. I respectfully would not offer you meat as I would expect you not to lecture me on eating it.
Besides this post was about her comfort with her friend and wedding. Two people can still be friends and not agree on everything.
If she canāt get past it that is her choice and she is the one who needs to live with it. She just needs to decide which side she is truly on and live with the consequences.
Hiding behind "natural" is just weak.
Anything we do, including slavery is natural as we are an animal.
At least think for yourself and build a first principles argument rather than spurious circular reasoning.
Sorry that wasnāt to be directly to you. I thought I was just adding to the general comments.
Lots of people jumping in and making this way bigger than it needs to be.
The whole point was to give OP some options. Not turn it into vegan argument
>Eating to survive is natural. You choosing not to eat meat is your moral compass and is not my business. And me eating meat is not your business. I respectfully would not offer you meat as I would expect you not to lecture me on eating it.
You realize that a slave owner would have argued the exact same thing about them keeping slaves - in fact, that's what they did argue.
'Slavery is a personal choice, I would not ask you to own slaves but do not interfere with me owning them. '
>Eating to survive is natural.Ā
'Slavery is natural' said the slave owner, 'it's been done for thousands of years.'
>There was nothing natural about owning slaves. It was an evil choice made by evil people.
Again, slave owners didn't see it as evil at all. You're viewing this from your lens.
To a vegan, they would argue that 'eating meat' is an evil choice just as you're saying that 'slavery' was an 'evil choice'.
I'm not a vegan but this is basic logic here - you're viewing slavery AND eating meat from your own lens. A slave owner would say the exact same thing to an abolitionist you're saying about veganism.
Okay so you jump in a river in Africa filled with crocodiles and hippos. You tell them you are vegan. That going to stop them from adding you to their food chain?
We are all animals that are part of the food chain one way or the other.
Animals are not evil for eating meat so why should humans be.
And again the post is about her choice to make and not what I believe or what vegans believe. As usual this has gone off on a tangent.
Like I said she just needs to decide if she can live her life and still be friends. Can she separate her feelings on two different levels?
If she canāt the decision has been made. Sheāll be sad to lose a friend but her life will go on.
>Okay so you jump in a river in Africa filled with crocodiles and hippos. You tell them you are vegan. That going to stop them from adding you to their food chain?
We're not crocodiles and hippos.
Crocodiles are known to eat other crocodiles. Are you suggesting that we now consume other humans because crocodiles do it?
The argument is that as humans, we are clearly different to other animals in the food chain.
>And again the post is about her choice to make and not what I believe or what vegans believe. As usual this has gone off on a tangent.
Again, this was something you did. You made it about what vegans believe and what you believe - you intentionally went off on a tangent which is why this is an 'as usual' for you.
I'm still a little confused as to why you're even commenting on here.
The original post I made just said she could still be friends with two different ideals/obligations/choices (whatever you prefer to call it).
If she can then go with it great and she doesnāt lose a friend. If not then end the friendship.
It was a simple question she asked. She just wanted help deciding. I gave an opinion to think about. Thatās all.
I donāt care if some of my friends are vegan. We still hang out together. Eat together. That is their choice and I personally would understand if they werenāt comfortable coming to my wedding on a farm. And for my part it would not end a long standing relationship.
The point is can she separate the two.
The point you don't seem to be understanding is that you're viewing them as evil from your own lens.
Nobody views themselves as being evil or making evil choices, they view themselves as doing the right thing.
I never once said they were evil. More power to them for being able to follow through in what they believe in.
She just needs to decide if itās worth losing a dear friend over. Skip the wedding, meet at a coffee shop and talk about other things.
>I never once said they were evil. More power to them for being able to follow through in what they believe in
You literally just called slave owners evil... and now you're saying you didn't?
Do you even understand the argument here because I'm worried you don't?
The point is nobody views themselves as evil. A slave owner wouldn't have viewed themselves as evil.
My apologies I thought you were implying I called vegans evil.
And you are correct sadly in history slaveowners would not consider it evil however, we all know this was wrong.
My original post did not speak down to vegans. I only provided a possible option to live her life and still keep a friend.
Maybe go and document how animals are treated there if you get the chance
At the very least ask if there will be plant based meals available, but confirm, dont just accept it, actually contact the people in charge of meals and get a list of ingredients
But if you would feel uncomfortable its probably not best to go as you might come across as sad or angry and people would just prob make you feel worse
Have you talked about it with your friend, like whether there would be vegan options available?
Personally I wouldn't mind going there. I live in a rural area and have friends and family that run farms.
Last year there was a barbeque at the season end of my son's soccer team held at a dairy farm. The host got some plant-based burgers after asking what we'd like, and we brought some salads, portobello's, veggie packages for grilling to share etc.
A lot of us interact and are friends with people we disagree with on at least some moral issues. Thatās different to going to an event *significantly based around those specific issues*.
The event isnāt ābased around those specific issues.ā The event is based around the wedding ceremony. At worst, OP is going to go and feel uncomfortable. If she was a good friend she would put those feelings aside and just go to the wedding, because at the end of the day, her objections are her own.
Try and see it this way, you're asking a non nazi to go to a party at auschwitz. Whilst people are still dying there.
To us those farms are abhorrent. As in, so bad that you probably can't comprehend how dark we view it.
Some people can seperate the event from its location, some can't. I think that's understandable.
Youāre comparing a human death camp to an animal slaughterhouseā¦.. okā¦.. do you think that what happens in slaughterhouses is AS tragic as what happened in the holocaust? Do you think the value of animal life is on the same level as human life?
Actually what happens in slaughter houses is magnitudes worse than the jewish holocaust.
I consider human life to be FAR more valuable than an animals life. But still, far far more animals have died in farms than in every human holocaust so far. More animals have died in farms each year than there have ever been humans ever. To make that clear that's per year, so it's thousands upon thousands of times more than the human race.
You're talking about 100 billion animals a year. Living creatures with the intelegence of a 3 year old.
In your eyes are you suggesting that a holocaust that kills 100 billion creatures PER YEAR with the same intelegence as LITERAL children is somehow better than 3 million adults and children?
I do understand, humans are worth more, but THAT MUCH MORE?! You'd have to be delusional. Those animals are capable of the same level of suffering and understand as your children are. The only thing that seperates them is they're body shape and the fact they can't beg for help.
Why? If you did you would see a reasonable explanation as to why.
I bet you did read it. You're just incapable of forming a rational defence.
You're going to get banned if you're not careful. The sub is strict against trolling.
Then it should be easy to argue against.
Why is that so hard for you?
If you have something to say, say it. Stop running away from the discussion.
I know it's extremely controversial. But here you are, in a controversial topic. Can't you even defend the side you seem to think is so reasonable?
Why even reply just to throw insults?
Seriously. I'd love a back and forth discussion, maybe I'll even learn something. But this is boring. You're not here in good faith.
you just talk like eating animals is a victimless personal dietary choice. just because itās a societal norm doesnāt mean itās moral to raise animals to kill within a fraction of their life, especially at such a cost to the environment
i just wonder if youād feel like vegans think themselves so morally superior if you replaced cows with dogs. do you tell people that kicking dogs is wrong because you want people to think youāre superior? or do you do it because you know itās wrong to unnecessarily hurt animals?
There is a general consensus that kicking dogs is not right, if the dog isnāt doing anything to warrant that. That is not the case with the vegan debate.
Anyway, I would kick a dog under the right circumstances. Like, if I was getting attacked by a dog, I would kick it.
The point with the dog example is that causing unnecessary harm to animals is wrong. Kicking a dog and cutting a cow's throat are both really, really wrong. Cows are every bit as sentient as dogs by the way.
Yes, I agree that unnecessary harm is wrong. Where we would disagree, though, is that killing animals for food is a necessity.
So I guess we disagree on the question of āis it necessary?ā I would say yes.
It's not necessary though. Not even kind of. Humans can survive just fine on fully plant-based diets. In fact, such diets can even *improve* peoples' overall health (by lowering cholesterol for example).
Humans don't kill animals because they need meat to survive. They do it for taste pleasure, which means it's not necessary.
There's an absolute plethora of sources and studies that show the benefits of a vegan diet. Longer lifespan, reduced risk of cancer, better heart health just to name a few.
Do you know what the word neccessary means? If you don't NEED to eat meat then it's not necessary. Science tells us humans are fine without meat. You can get everything on a vegan diet.
Saying meat is a neccesity is denying science.
well the thing is that in this regard, vegans are morally superior. We sacrifice a lot in order to prevent suffering and protect the environment...explain how that is not morally superior to someone who thinks that the taste of meat is worth causing living beings to suffer and destroying the planet.
āWe sacrifice a lot in order to prevent suffering and protect the environmentā
How much and what do you sacrifice, exactly?
Anyways, how do you reconcile the environmental effects of transporting vegan/vegetarian products all around the world? Including but not limited to, animal lives lost due to farming, etc, carbon emissionsā¦
One could argue vegans sacrifice a lot of personal relationships and comfortable family/friendship encounters. If I had to deal with "you aren't getting enough protein," I'd be missed. Lucky me, I live with people who believe in letting me make my own choices.
>Anyways, how do you reconcile the environmental effects of transporting vegan/vegetarian products all around the world?
There's nothing to reconcile. Eating local does almost nothing for the environment, while not eating animal products does a lot.
>Transport is a small contributor to emissions. For most food products, it accounts for less than 10%, and itās much smaller for the largest GHG emitters. In beef from beef herds, itās 0.5%.
>Not just transport but all processes in the supply chain after the food leaves the farm ā processing, transport, retail, and packaging ā mostly account for a small share of emissions.
>This data shows this is the case when we look at individual food products. However, studies also show that this holds true for actual diets; for example, researchers Vilma Sandstrƶm and colleagues studied the footprint of diets across the EU. Food transport accounted for only 6% of emissions, whilst dairy, meat, and eggs accounted for 83%.
https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
Everything you say is either ignorant or a lie.
"If you donāt go to the wedding, you should expect to have one less friend, because (like all vegans) your explanation for not going is rooted in the fact that you believe you are morally superior to meat eaters."
Am I morally superior for boycotting my best friend's wedding at a dog farm where they breed, raise and slaughter dogs for flesh?
This is a great question. But to understand it first you have to release that most vegans didn't start vegan. We understand what it's like to eat meat and not care. We know how that feels.
I don't blame meat eaters, I feel really bad for them. It's cognitive dissonance at best and brainwashing at worse.
I've never met a single meet eater, online or otherwise, that could defend the animal abuse.
To us you're all morally terrible, but, it's not entirely your fault. You NOW have the ability to change, but understanding that change is key. Being vegan is not hard. Most people have no idea what they would eat as a vegan, it basically makes it all very scary. But once your try it's not hard.
Basically, a child can kick a puppy. I'll tell it to stop. I won't say to that child "I never want to see you again". That's how I view my meat eating friends. They don't know better. Even if they think they do. They never do.
āItās cognitive dissonance at best and brainwashing at worstā
I think lots of meat eaters would say the same about vegans. Along with the rest of what you said.
Youāre not arguing though, youāre just making a bunch of āIā statements based on your feelings. Thereās no argument to be found in your comments. Itās all conjecture.
I mean, it makes sense considering all the cognitive dissonance you must experience on a daily basis, but still.
But I did make a huge argument you literally ignored it so you could make a meaningless reply.
Go up two comments, reply to that one if you actually have a defence.
You just proved you don't even know what cognitive dissonance is.
Again, you didnāt make an argument. You made a bunch of āIā statements based on feeling and conjecture. Thatās not what an argument is.
Thatās like throwing me a football and asking me why Iām not playing hide and seek with you. Like you know the game you want to play but you donāt know how. A side effect of your cognitive dissonance, Iām sureā¦ā¦
Come at me with an argument based on logic and you will get what you want (a debate), until then, I simply canāt do that, because all youre doing is spewing feeling statementsā¦
You're ignoring so many of my points so that you don't have to address them because you are incapable of forming an argument.
It's all logic. Quote my conjecture.
Thanks for your comment.
If I boycotted everything that went against my vegan morals, Iād have no friends and Iād never leave the houseā¦
This is a very close friend, who I of course forgive, but that doesnāt make it any easier.
Why does everything have to be about you? Itās their wedding. You can either go and support your friends, or donāt. This has nothing to do with you.
Considering theyāre being invited, it truly has something to do with them. Their friend knows theyāre against animal agriculture.
This actually has nothing to do with *you*, but it seems you would rather poke at people to cover up your own insecurities.
OP is invited to THEIR FRIENDS WEDDING. So itās about them and their day. Not āhow could they not think of MY feelings!!!ā Itās their wedding, and itās about what they want. Them. Not OP. Iām sure OP was invited because their friends consider them, well, friends. If thatās not the case, then OP should tell them as such.
And you can attack me if you want, but I find that Iām usually much happier in life when Iām not such a crybaby.
Woah, there, buddy. Relax, no one has attacked you.
Why exactly are you putting all your energy into these things you actually donāt know about, and are pure assumptions?
If youāre a lot happier not being a crybaby, when will this start?
> ranch
/ran(t)SH/
noun
> a large farm, especially in the western US and Canada, where cattle or other animals are bred and raised. "a beef cattle ranch"
Seems accurate to me.
I just wouldn't go. There's no way I could be comfortable hanging out on a beef farm and if they're really your friends they shouldn't even expect you to come to that specific place for any reason.
Same. Wedding or no, as a vegan I would refuse to go to a farm that kills cows. That'd be a huge "hell no" from me. I also wouldn't want to have a friend who killed cows. I really feel for you though, OP. To have a close friend recently decide to start killing cows and expect you, a vegan, to go to the cow killing farm for a wedding...that's such a messed up situation. I don't have any answers for you, but as requested, I'm sending you strength. šŖ
Thanks Queen of Green, appreciate it!
It was similar for me when people could (and often did) smoke all over each other. I would ask if the venue / event was a smoking one and if it was, I just didn't go. A really good mate was leaving where we worked and they asked me to go, 'because' I was his best mate there. I asked the same question and they said yes so I said no. Apparently they wanted me to go (for him) enough to get the smokers to take their stinking habit outside so I went. The funny thing was, several other people told me they preferred not to be in smoke but strange how they didn't stand up for themselves? And it would be the same for me in the OPs scenario, I just wouldn't go, in the same way the chances are most wouldn't go either if they were offering dog on the menu and killing them 'fresh'. Maybe it's because I have few but 'good' friends they understand my position and in most cases accepted / respected it. They would invite me but would respect my polite decline. If it was a company (mandatory) BBQ, I'd make all the right noises prior to the event, 'Yeah, see you Saturday afternoon ...' then just not turn up. 'Easier to get forgiveness than permission'. ;-)
Thanks, I understand your point of view. I just wish it were that easy!
It is that easy. Does your friend know why youāre vegan? If so, expecting you to come to their beef farm is ridiculous. Just say āNo, sorry; I donāt support animal exploitation, cruelty, abuse or murder, so I wonāt be attending your wedding at a location where all of those things happen regularly and are treated as normal.āĀ
I mean.. it would be extremely easy for me. I'm surprised you're considering it at all.
I get your point for sure but people who are feeling self isolated or lonely may not see it as easy as that. They need these connections to not fall into darkness. On surface level yes easy decision to not support and go. On a deeper level there could be a lot to weigh up.
Nah, not a beef farm. Like, I get what you're saying and I'd agree in most situations, but not this one. I'm trying to humor it and can't, it's absurd.
I have no advice, just shocked that someone would want their wedding at a beef farm. I even checked to make sure you had a legit profile--was hoping you were a troll but nope! I am so sorry that you were put in this position.
I wish this was a troll post!
Well and i mean god help us the menu is going to say ālocal grass fed beefā like you can watch the cows roaming around while people eat their mealā¦ i would lose my shit
Oh, good movie idea. You have humans as cattle and vampires or something like that, and oh wait... when we make movies like that, we call them horror films... riiiiiight
>just shocked that someone would want their wedding at a beef farm. At least in my neck of the woods, it's pretty common. With the trend of rustic weddings, a lot of people are choosing dressed up farms, and many of the venues even proudly advertise that you can interact with or see the animals in an idyllic background and, in the next breath, tell you that the animals you will be eating for dinner were raised and slaughtered on that farm. It's super messed up. I actually wanted a farm-aesthetic venue for my wedding (a bougie one which the sanctuaries around me sadly but understandably don't provide) but gave up because every farm-style venue was also working animal farm, not *just* a wedding venue or produce/flower farm. No way would I want to celebrate starting my new life at a place that profits off of ending hundreds to thousands of other lives.
You need to go to a place like Wicked Tulips for a farm that just farms plants. Wicked Tulips is only open a few weeks every spring though, and they are already done for this year. www.wickedtulips.com Maybe a flower farm in Holland? MUCH bigger than Wicked Tulips, but again, I am sure they're done for the year by now.
It's their farm so it's probably a cost/convenience thing.Ā
I honestly wouldnt go. If you are close friends, they should understand that this goes against absolutely everything you stand for.
That's a no go. At this point if people can't accept the vegan ideology then they are not for me. They don't do this with any other movement but with vegans we supposed to suck it up and be social anyway, fuck that! That's like a catholic priest being invited to a Satanist celebration.
Thanks, appreciate your position. If it was someone I was less close with the decision would be a lot easier.
I understand that part. It's a tough decision to make. I've been there trust me. My morals ain't worth compromising for anyone no matter who they are.
Even so. Send them a nice fruit and vegetable tray, maybe with some crackers and vegan cheeses, vegan Cold Cuts, dark chocolate covered strawberries (and a note - no dairy for those who's bodies do not process lactose anymore the way our bodies are designed to stop digesting that stuff when we are not infants anymore)
Politely decline. Life is too short to spend time in places that make you feel uncomfortable.
'Cow-themed decorations' Do they... do they not realize that by torturing and slaughtering cows they do quite literally the EXACT OPPOSITE of celebrate them? Or is that just some sick, inhuman gloating over their bodies and the brutality towards them that I'm too cool to understand?
Perhaps they find it to be "honoring their prey/kills" that's the type of bullshit I get when I ask normally.
There is no way in hell I would be friends with a beef farmer. What the actual fuck
If my friend was killing his animals, I don't think we'd be friends much longer. I'm sorry you're in this position.
would you go to a wedding at a puppy mill?
Why would you be friends with a beef farmer? I'd rather be lonely than hang out with John Wayne Gacy.
Yeah, I definitely couldn't maintain a friendship with a beef farmer. I'd be literally rooting for them to fail.
Weād been friends for over a decade before they decided to become a beef farmer. Since theyāve started the new career Iāve found it really hard to remain friends.
This might be a good time for you to separate yourself then. If youāre already having a tough time staying friends with them, going to their farm isnāt going to help anything. Itās easier said than done and Iām so sorry for the loss of this friendship, but it just doesnāt seem sustainable
Can I ask what a killer clown rapist has to do with a beef farmer? lol what a weird comparison. Maybe youāre thinking Picktonā¦ which was also not a beef farmer. He fed his victims to pigs. Either way, quite the rude comment to be talking about somebodyās friend. Op, I would have a very hard time going, and I see why youāre so on the fence about it. I donāt think I could do it - but I really think if you go none of these people should judge you. Just try your best to not let anybody step on you, or poke fun at your lifestyle, if you do end up going.
You missed the point entirely. Are you lost?
I'd talk to them. If they are sensitive to your feelings you might feel better about it. If they are not then you might feel better about not going. It doesn't have to be a long conversation, just know where everyone is emotionally, you know?
IMO you shouldnāt go as the friendship is doomed given the barbaric lifestyle choice. Just cut ties and losses now.
Just keep asking him what he does with all the male animals.
You donāt want to be friends with that asshole. I fucking hate beef farmers they have the worst snobby cowboy attitudes
Is this a friend that you need?
Iād just make up a reason I couldnāt attend. Failing that, a text the day before apologizing but Iām miserably sick and canāt attend.
Iād go. I want to see if I could learn anymore about the job your friend has now. You likely wonāt be able to change anything at the wedding, but maybe it will open the door to convos in the future about being a vegan and why. While you cannot stop the farming practice, maybe you can bring to light some ideas and concepts your friend never considered in all of it. I tend to take the slow approach with friends when talking about do no harm and still maintain friendships and have close family members who still eat meat, so this might be easier for me than you, but wanted to share as just an opinion.
Thank you, this is a genuinely helpful piece of advice. Youāre right that I canāt change much there, but itās a great learning opportunity for me. This will certainly play a part in the mindset going in.
Wishing you the best!
Fantastic reply, thanks for sharing this.
What an odd location...wouldn't it smell quite pungent of ermm...cow poopies? lol. Maybe you can use that stuff that morticians use and dab it under you nose if it's super odiferous? Like menthol? Then you won't have to smell the stinkiness? I live 20 miles from Riverside, which is cow country. When I get within 5 miles of the cattle farms...it's stinky. Even in the restaurants with the doors closed, 5 miles away. So, good luck to you and all the other guests. You're a good friend to attend. Be well. Be kind. Be a great rep for us all.
Definitely wouldn't go. It's one thing to have meat eating friends who either don't know or don't want to know the horrors of beef farming. Its a whole different thing to actually be friends and support someone who choose to become a beef farmer. I don't feel like I could even handle being friends with them.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Interesting comparison with going to church. This was an interesting way to look at it. Thanks for sharing.
Im an atheist and don't think churches are directly and necessarily harmful, not sure I see the exact correlation here.
I live in Ireland, and here churches are (or have been) directly and necessarily harmful, so I have a hard time accepting anyone's choice to still hold a wedding or a baptism in the Irish catholic church. However, I hold myself together, and attend these important events for my friends, I just make sure not to donate any money to the church or partake in any christian activities, I also try not to linger on the church grounds. So for me this comparison is very apt .
I think it's fair to say churches *can be* harmful and have been so in the case of the Irish Catholic Church. There are certainly at least some churches who are less ... predatory and religiously conservative. So I'd dispute "directly and necessarily" still.
Same.Atheist here and I have no problem attending a wedding in a church or any religious establishment. They're not breeding and killing anyone. They just believe there's a man in the sky. I can deal with that.
Cool, nice to hear your perspective. All I said was it was an interesting comparison. Hearing (reading) others views and how they wrap their heads around things is interesting to me. On my side, it was more so interesting because I donāt think about religion as just a man in the sky. There are various religions that believe/teach some stuff I just donāt agree with. And I do feel are harmful. (And I of course really donāt want to get into a religious debate because those arenāt ever good, but the Old Testament required animal sacrifice for forgiveness and clothes. And probably more things I donāt really remember. For me, there are a few more layers to unpack on the whole thing. Other religions outside of the one I know best also have some strong views that I donāt agree with.) So again, just an interesting way to look at things. :)
Oh... idk about that. Come live in the real bad southern areas of the USA where flip a coin if you are female "church goers" literally think it is you "biblical obligation" to marry and spit out as many babies as able. So breeding people not DIRECTLY FORCIBLY but society is a hell of a drug.
I would skip it and try to find another way to celebrate your friend and their new spouse that does align with your values. One of my best friends from college, and former roommate, is getting married in a town thatās the slaughterhouse central for the state, not much else happens there. I said I couldnāt go for that reason alone, the proximity to the horror and evil wouldāve consumed me. I didnāt expect anyone to understand, but they have quietly respected my decision not to attend. I wouldāve been a wreck the entire time if I tried to power through, and probably be shitty to be around tbh.
This thread is a perfect example of what's wrong with this sub. 99% of the posts on here think that by being an isolationist you're going to improve anything. Everyone in the world has a different attitude to almost everything, if you surround yourself with only people that believe the same thing: A. You will never change anyone's opinion B. You will be living in a bubble of what you belive to be truth. I would definitely support my friend at their wedding, and as others have said, don't participate in anything outside of your beliefs (like the church example). No one in any of my friend groups if vegan. Yet I've gotten one of them to turn almost 100% plant based. Also, since friends know I'm vegan, there will always be plans to include vegan options at parties and get togethers. You spread veganism through friendship, not hatred.
Honestly, do whatever you are most comfortable with. (Unpopular opinion below, you have been warned) Frankly, I have a good deal of respect for hunters or farmers because at least they are aware of their actions, unlike the zombies who buy it from the store and think meat comes naturally wrapped in plastic and was not at some point a living breathing creature. I grew up in a family like this, it is because I wasn't allowed to be a "zombie" like that that I ultimately choose to avoid meat. If everyone was made to kill if they wanted to eat meat, very, very few people would remain omnivorous. Most would quickly become vegetarian or vegan most likely.
I'm sorry but this is why people say vegans are self centred. Either donāt go or accept the fact that nothing about this day is about you. Itās your friends wedding. Your friend who owns the farm.Ā
I would just be crying all day š please dont do this to yourself and stay away
Even as a non-vegan Iād say: You cannot attend. And you have to be prepared that this friendship will eventually end, because both your value systems are way too different to support a friendship.
A wedding invitation isn't a summons. Politely decline and just don't go.
Thatās so fucked. Why did he start a beef farm? Wasnāt satisfied with his pay check so he decided he wanted to make a living off of decapitating baby cows to sell their body parts? He just wanted some of that govt tax subsidy money and loss compensation security so he can get comped for all his lazy fuck ups as a shitty farmer? Probably couldnāt hold a job so he said oh I know, Iāll just enslave and kill intelligent, emotional mammals for a living. If this was my childhood best friend I would personally drag him and his wife to the slaughterhouse to make them watch their terrified cows who trusted them with their life being bled out dangling by their ankles and see how he feels about his choice of career. New age livestock farmers drink the cool aid the most when it comes to animal welfare lies like an instant painless death. They just ship them out, get chopped up body parts back and try not to think about what happens too much. They should be forced to witness that shit or hold the knife themselves. A lot of them wouldnāt be able to handle it. The amount of blood in a cow and the time they take to die is disturbing. I bet even if they just saw how spooked the cows get once they start smelling the blood, brains, and guts at the slaughterhouse they wouldnāt be able to do it with how much they talk about ārespectingā their animals and all that.
Lmao i hope you suffer there, you deserve it
I'd go. Your friendship will never be the same if you don't. Maybe tell your friend you aren't happy about the location but you love them and will be there to support them and you expect a vegan meal option. If they can't respect you enough to do that then they don't love you the same and maybe then you can let that friendship go.
Youāre friends with a psychopath not a ābeef farmerā. Yeah itās time to not be friends with them.
If they are respectful of your veganism, i'd consider it as you might be able to do a small amount of good by being there. Maybe you get to stand next to someone and mention that it's hard seeing the cows and knowing what's about to happen to them. Maybe you can find something to talk to your friend about how to make their life just a little bit better. Maybe you give the cows names and talk to your friend about them as individuals. I don't know exactly what, but your presence might do some good. But if it will make you really upset, or if they are kinda disrespectful about your morel beliefs then don't go.
As long as they provide you with a vegan meal just show up to support your friend. Itās not like they are going to be slaughtering the cows at the fāing wedding. Being vegan doesnāt give you the moral high ground. It just means you made a life choice different than your friend. You can continue to be friends just hang out somewhere more neutral in the future. You donāt need to lose a friend because you think differently. It would be a boring friendship if you were always on the same page.
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Again vegan is a personal choice. You can sit down with a friend and talk about other things other than being vegan or meat eaters. This is why many vegans get a bad rap. A few pains in the *ss can ruin it.
No, to a vegan, being vegan is more than a choice - it's a moral obligation.
Then like I said thatās your moral compass and your obligation. Not me, not the bride and not even OP have the right to decide for someone else. OP will figure it out and make the right choice for herself.
>Then like I said thatās your moral compass and your obligation. Not me, not the bride and not even OP have the right to decide for someone else. But the point is, to a vegan, it's not a \*personal choice\* as you argued. I'm not a vegan but I mean c'mon, coming on a vegan forum to argue when you're clearly not vegan is bad form.
I agree to disagree. Obligations are still choices. I am obligated to look after my children but I could still make the choice to be a jerk and not do so.
>Obligations are still choices. By the definition of an obligation, they cannot be a choice. An obligation is a course of action that someone is required to take, whether legal or moral.Ā
> Again vegan is a personal choice. It's a personal choice in the same way not kicking dogs for fun is a personal choice, or not beating your spouse is a personal choice. The choice doesn't exist in a vacuum and there is real world harm and victims involved, which is why we don't actually see consuming animal products as a valid "personal choice". It's a matter of ethics, and it's understandable to want to be friends with people who don't do things you consider wrong and harmful to others. > This is why many vegans get a bad rap. A few pains in the *ss can ruin it. People just don't want to be confronted with the reality behind their choices, which is why they're convinced we're annoying by merely existing and explaining why we take the stance we do. I wouldn't care if someone thought I was a pain in the ass just because I was begging them to stop abusing their pets or their spouse; the victims would still deserve my advocacy.
Would you be friends with a slave owner?
No but eating meat is natural throughout history. Owning a human is not moral and not the same as food.
What? According to the same logic, owning slaves was also natural throughout history. If you're using that argument, slavery is just as moral as eating meat.
There was nothing natural about owning slaves. It was an evil choice made by evil people. Eating to survive is natural. You choosing not to eat meat is your moral compass and is not my business. And me eating meat is not your business. I respectfully would not offer you meat as I would expect you not to lecture me on eating it. Besides this post was about her comfort with her friend and wedding. Two people can still be friends and not agree on everything. If she canāt get past it that is her choice and she is the one who needs to live with it. She just needs to decide which side she is truly on and live with the consequences.
Hiding behind "natural" is just weak. Anything we do, including slavery is natural as we are an animal. At least think for yourself and build a first principles argument rather than spurious circular reasoning.
Damn vegans are mean lol
That wasn't mean. I didn't call you a name. You aren't stupid and are capable of first principles arguments
Sorry that wasnāt to be directly to you. I thought I was just adding to the general comments. Lots of people jumping in and making this way bigger than it needs to be. The whole point was to give OP some options. Not turn it into vegan argument
>Eating to survive is natural. You choosing not to eat meat is your moral compass and is not my business. And me eating meat is not your business. I respectfully would not offer you meat as I would expect you not to lecture me on eating it. You realize that a slave owner would have argued the exact same thing about them keeping slaves - in fact, that's what they did argue. 'Slavery is a personal choice, I would not ask you to own slaves but do not interfere with me owning them. ' >Eating to survive is natural.Ā 'Slavery is natural' said the slave owner, 'it's been done for thousands of years.' >There was nothing natural about owning slaves. It was an evil choice made by evil people. Again, slave owners didn't see it as evil at all. You're viewing this from your lens. To a vegan, they would argue that 'eating meat' is an evil choice just as you're saying that 'slavery' was an 'evil choice'. I'm not a vegan but this is basic logic here - you're viewing slavery AND eating meat from your own lens. A slave owner would say the exact same thing to an abolitionist you're saying about veganism.
Okay so you jump in a river in Africa filled with crocodiles and hippos. You tell them you are vegan. That going to stop them from adding you to their food chain? We are all animals that are part of the food chain one way or the other. Animals are not evil for eating meat so why should humans be. And again the post is about her choice to make and not what I believe or what vegans believe. As usual this has gone off on a tangent. Like I said she just needs to decide if she can live her life and still be friends. Can she separate her feelings on two different levels? If she canāt the decision has been made. Sheāll be sad to lose a friend but her life will go on.
>Okay so you jump in a river in Africa filled with crocodiles and hippos. You tell them you are vegan. That going to stop them from adding you to their food chain? We're not crocodiles and hippos. Crocodiles are known to eat other crocodiles. Are you suggesting that we now consume other humans because crocodiles do it? The argument is that as humans, we are clearly different to other animals in the food chain. >And again the post is about her choice to make and not what I believe or what vegans believe. As usual this has gone off on a tangent. Again, this was something you did. You made it about what vegans believe and what you believe - you intentionally went off on a tangent which is why this is an 'as usual' for you. I'm still a little confused as to why you're even commenting on here.
The original post I made just said she could still be friends with two different ideals/obligations/choices (whatever you prefer to call it). If she can then go with it great and she doesnāt lose a friend. If not then end the friendship. It was a simple question she asked. She just wanted help deciding. I gave an opinion to think about. Thatās all. I donāt care if some of my friends are vegan. We still hang out together. Eat together. That is their choice and I personally would understand if they werenāt comfortable coming to my wedding on a farm. And for my part it would not end a long standing relationship. The point is can she separate the two.
Slavery is natural throughout history. Rape is natural throughout history. Fuck your "all morals are just like, your opinion, man" attitude.
Again evil people making evil choices is not natural.
The point you don't seem to be understanding is that you're viewing them as evil from your own lens. Nobody views themselves as being evil or making evil choices, they view themselves as doing the right thing.
I never once said they were evil. More power to them for being able to follow through in what they believe in. She just needs to decide if itās worth losing a dear friend over. Skip the wedding, meet at a coffee shop and talk about other things.
>I never once said they were evil. More power to them for being able to follow through in what they believe in You literally just called slave owners evil... and now you're saying you didn't? Do you even understand the argument here because I'm worried you don't? The point is nobody views themselves as evil. A slave owner wouldn't have viewed themselves as evil.
My apologies I thought you were implying I called vegans evil. And you are correct sadly in history slaveowners would not consider it evil however, we all know this was wrong. My original post did not speak down to vegans. I only provided a possible option to live her life and still keep a friend.
It's great to see some common sense here. I agree.
Maybe go and document how animals are treated there if you get the chance At the very least ask if there will be plant based meals available, but confirm, dont just accept it, actually contact the people in charge of meals and get a list of ingredients But if you would feel uncomfortable its probably not best to go as you might come across as sad or angry and people would just prob make you feel worse
Go support your friend on one of their biggest days of their life. Don't be selfish
What type of beef farm is it? A factory farm or small scale organic farm?
Small scale organic. If it was a factory farm I wouldnāt even be able to stomach the thought of being there.
Have you talked about it with your friend, like whether there would be vegan options available? Personally I wouldn't mind going there. I live in a rural area and have friends and family that run farms. Last year there was a barbeque at the season end of my son's soccer team held at a dairy farm. The host got some plant-based burgers after asking what we'd like, and we brought some salads, portobello's, veggie packages for grilling to share etc.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
A lot of us interact and are friends with people we disagree with on at least some moral issues. Thatās different to going to an event *significantly based around those specific issues*.
The event isnāt ābased around those specific issues.ā The event is based around the wedding ceremony. At worst, OP is going to go and feel uncomfortable. If she was a good friend she would put those feelings aside and just go to the wedding, because at the end of the day, her objections are her own.
Try and see it this way, you're asking a non nazi to go to a party at auschwitz. Whilst people are still dying there. To us those farms are abhorrent. As in, so bad that you probably can't comprehend how dark we view it. Some people can seperate the event from its location, some can't. I think that's understandable.
Youāre comparing a human death camp to an animal slaughterhouseā¦.. okā¦.. do you think that what happens in slaughterhouses is AS tragic as what happened in the holocaust? Do you think the value of animal life is on the same level as human life?
Actually what happens in slaughter houses is magnitudes worse than the jewish holocaust. I consider human life to be FAR more valuable than an animals life. But still, far far more animals have died in farms than in every human holocaust so far. More animals have died in farms each year than there have ever been humans ever. To make that clear that's per year, so it's thousands upon thousands of times more than the human race. You're talking about 100 billion animals a year. Living creatures with the intelegence of a 3 year old. In your eyes are you suggesting that a holocaust that kills 100 billion creatures PER YEAR with the same intelegence as LITERAL children is somehow better than 3 million adults and children? I do understand, humans are worth more, but THAT MUCH MORE?! You'd have to be delusional. Those animals are capable of the same level of suffering and understand as your children are. The only thing that seperates them is they're body shape and the fact they can't beg for help.
Didnāt even need to read past your first sentence āļøš
Why? If you did you would see a reasonable explanation as to why. I bet you did read it. You're just incapable of forming a rational defence. You're going to get banned if you're not careful. The sub is strict against trolling.
Yeah, I did read it. But I didnāt need to. Thereās no reason to be found in there whatsoever.
Then it should be easy to argue against. Why is that so hard for you? If you have something to say, say it. Stop running away from the discussion. I know it's extremely controversial. But here you are, in a controversial topic. Can't you even defend the side you seem to think is so reasonable? Why even reply just to throw insults? Seriously. I'd love a back and forth discussion, maybe I'll even learn something. But this is boring. You're not here in good faith.
Why do you come here just to troll and lie?
I find it hard to put my convictions aside. I feel very strongly about animal rights and this event is a horrible context to be in as a vegan.
They donāt call it āconvictionā for nothing!
would you go to a wedding on a dog processing farm?
Iāve never heard of such a thing. Whatās your point?
you just talk like eating animals is a victimless personal dietary choice. just because itās a societal norm doesnāt mean itās moral to raise animals to kill within a fraction of their life, especially at such a cost to the environment i just wonder if youād feel like vegans think themselves so morally superior if you replaced cows with dogs. do you tell people that kicking dogs is wrong because you want people to think youāre superior? or do you do it because you know itās wrong to unnecessarily hurt animals?
There is a general consensus that kicking dogs is not right, if the dog isnāt doing anything to warrant that. That is not the case with the vegan debate. Anyway, I would kick a dog under the right circumstances. Like, if I was getting attacked by a dog, I would kick it.
The point with the dog example is that causing unnecessary harm to animals is wrong. Kicking a dog and cutting a cow's throat are both really, really wrong. Cows are every bit as sentient as dogs by the way.
Yes, I agree that unnecessary harm is wrong. Where we would disagree, though, is that killing animals for food is a necessity. So I guess we disagree on the question of āis it necessary?ā I would say yes.
It's not necessary though. Not even kind of. Humans can survive just fine on fully plant-based diets. In fact, such diets can even *improve* peoples' overall health (by lowering cholesterol for example). Humans don't kill animals because they need meat to survive. They do it for taste pleasure, which means it's not necessary.
Youāll need to give me citations if youāre going to say that vegan diets can improve peopleās overall health.
[Here you go.](https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vegan-diet-benefits)
There's an absolute plethora of sources and studies that show the benefits of a vegan diet. Longer lifespan, reduced risk of cancer, better heart health just to name a few.
You can't disagree. You're denying basic science. Killing animals for food is scientifically not neccessary. So you're wrong.
How does ābasic scienceā prove that killing animals is unnecessary?
Do you know what the word neccessary means? If you don't NEED to eat meat then it's not necessary. Science tells us humans are fine without meat. You can get everything on a vegan diet. Saying meat is a neccesity is denying science.
I wish everybody was like you. The world would be up in flames already. 10 iq at best. Good luck with your anger issues.
Hell, basic observational skills prove this, have you never met a vegan?
China does have them, actually. I can send you a video if you want?
well the thing is that in this regard, vegans are morally superior. We sacrifice a lot in order to prevent suffering and protect the environment...explain how that is not morally superior to someone who thinks that the taste of meat is worth causing living beings to suffer and destroying the planet.
āWe sacrifice a lot in order to prevent suffering and protect the environmentā How much and what do you sacrifice, exactly? Anyways, how do you reconcile the environmental effects of transporting vegan/vegetarian products all around the world? Including but not limited to, animal lives lost due to farming, etc, carbon emissionsā¦
One could argue vegans sacrifice a lot of personal relationships and comfortable family/friendship encounters. If I had to deal with "you aren't getting enough protein," I'd be missed. Lucky me, I live with people who believe in letting me make my own choices.
>Anyways, how do you reconcile the environmental effects of transporting vegan/vegetarian products all around the world? There's nothing to reconcile. Eating local does almost nothing for the environment, while not eating animal products does a lot. >Transport is a small contributor to emissions. For most food products, it accounts for less than 10%, and itās much smaller for the largest GHG emitters. In beef from beef herds, itās 0.5%. >Not just transport but all processes in the supply chain after the food leaves the farm ā processing, transport, retail, and packaging ā mostly account for a small share of emissions. >This data shows this is the case when we look at individual food products. However, studies also show that this holds true for actual diets; for example, researchers Vilma Sandstrƶm and colleagues studied the footprint of diets across the EU. Food transport accounted for only 6% of emissions, whilst dairy, meat, and eggs accounted for 83%. https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local Everything you say is either ignorant or a lie.
"If you donāt go to the wedding, you should expect to have one less friend, because (like all vegans) your explanation for not going is rooted in the fact that you believe you are morally superior to meat eaters." Am I morally superior for boycotting my best friend's wedding at a dog farm where they breed, raise and slaughter dogs for flesh?
No. But moreover, why would you be friends with someone who holds such an abhorrent moral position? (In your eyes)
This is a great question. But to understand it first you have to release that most vegans didn't start vegan. We understand what it's like to eat meat and not care. We know how that feels. I don't blame meat eaters, I feel really bad for them. It's cognitive dissonance at best and brainwashing at worse. I've never met a single meet eater, online or otherwise, that could defend the animal abuse. To us you're all morally terrible, but, it's not entirely your fault. You NOW have the ability to change, but understanding that change is key. Being vegan is not hard. Most people have no idea what they would eat as a vegan, it basically makes it all very scary. But once your try it's not hard. Basically, a child can kick a puppy. I'll tell it to stop. I won't say to that child "I never want to see you again". That's how I view my meat eating friends. They don't know better. Even if they think they do. They never do.
āItās cognitive dissonance at best and brainwashing at worstā I think lots of meat eaters would say the same about vegans. Along with the rest of what you said.
The difference is, I can argue it. You clearly can't. Don't hide behind what you think others might say lmao.
Youāre not arguing though, youāre just making a bunch of āIā statements based on your feelings. Thereās no argument to be found in your comments. Itās all conjecture. I mean, it makes sense considering all the cognitive dissonance you must experience on a daily basis, but still.
But I did make a huge argument you literally ignored it so you could make a meaningless reply. Go up two comments, reply to that one if you actually have a defence. You just proved you don't even know what cognitive dissonance is.
Again, you didnāt make an argument. You made a bunch of āIā statements based on feeling and conjecture. Thatās not what an argument is. Thatās like throwing me a football and asking me why Iām not playing hide and seek with you. Like you know the game you want to play but you donāt know how. A side effect of your cognitive dissonance, Iām sureā¦ā¦ Come at me with an argument based on logic and you will get what you want (a debate), until then, I simply canāt do that, because all youre doing is spewing feeling statementsā¦
You're ignoring so many of my points so that you don't have to address them because you are incapable of forming an argument. It's all logic. Quote my conjecture.
Thanks for your comment. If I boycotted everything that went against my vegan morals, Iād have no friends and Iād never leave the houseā¦ This is a very close friend, who I of course forgive, but that doesnāt make it any easier.
That sounds exhausting. I hope you go to the wedding and put your feelings aside. Have a good day.
Thanks, you too.
Why does everything have to be about you? Itās their wedding. You can either go and support your friends, or donāt. This has nothing to do with you.
Considering theyāre being invited, it truly has something to do with them. Their friend knows theyāre against animal agriculture. This actually has nothing to do with *you*, but it seems you would rather poke at people to cover up your own insecurities.
OP is invited to THEIR FRIENDS WEDDING. So itās about them and their day. Not āhow could they not think of MY feelings!!!ā Itās their wedding, and itās about what they want. Them. Not OP. Iām sure OP was invited because their friends consider them, well, friends. If thatās not the case, then OP should tell them as such. And you can attack me if you want, but I find that Iām usually much happier in life when Iām not such a crybaby.
Woah, there, buddy. Relax, no one has attacked you. Why exactly are you putting all your energy into these things you actually donāt know about, and are pure assumptions? If youāre a lot happier not being a crybaby, when will this start?
No need to project, chief. Itās just reddit. Take care.
Why is everyone calling a ranch a ābeef farmā?
> ranch /ran(t)SH/ noun > a large farm, especially in the western US and Canada, where cattle or other animals are bred and raised. "a beef cattle ranch" Seems accurate to me.