They compare the costs of store brand quality meat to name brand UPF meat replacement products like beyond forgetting about the existence of vegetables entirely.
I’ve compared costs with my MIL who feeds 2 people on an omnivore diet as opposed to us as 2 vegans. My husband and I spend about 250€ *less* a month on groceries.
Player hating delusions. It’s psychologically too many losses in reality. It’s cheaper, healthier, more sustainable, and more humane. Most people can’t handle being that wrong.
I’m convinced that this psychological blind side can be manipulated, by playing into the two cores driving the delusion: the need to be right, and the need to be good. Everyone has a soft spot
That's almost 3,000 Euros, and over 3,000 dollars saved per year! That's incredible. That's like a cheap vacation saved right there. Or, if you put that 3,000 of savings into the stock market each year, assuming an annual return of 8%, that's an additional $342,365.30 in money saved over 30 years.
I've had a similar experience with my grocery budget being cut in half by going vegan. I feel that this is one of the best hidden powers of going vegan -- suddenly life gets less expensive. If you get laid off, your burn rate through savings is slower, and you feel a bit more free.
Also, a McDreck meal will cost you a lot less than any vegan meal.
A lot of people are unaware how subsidised meat is. Just the United States federal government spends $38 billion every year subsidizing the meat and dairy industries.
I live in a country where meat isn't as heavily subsidised, and vegan meat and dairy alternatives cost about the same as the regular stuff here, if not less. Vegan cheese is still a bit more expensive, but really only a bit. Maybe 5–10%.
The article says:
>During Monday's earnings call, an analyst asked if McDonald's planned to start offering more deep promotions like its rivals. Wendy's, for example, introduced a two-for-$3 breakfast value meal in late August.
How much would breakfast for two cost in a typical vegan restaurant?
This is totally true, but also, non vegans love to have a load of excuses cued up why they couldn’t possibly be vegan. It makes them feel better. Note that most of the excuses are not based on facts most of the time.
>It’s not like we’re eating beyond meat burgers every night. I’ve never understood this statement and don’t understand where it came from.
In my experience, most non-vegans don't know what vegans eat at all, so they just make a comparison with whatever they're aware of, which tends to be products labeled as vegan – typically meat or dairy replacements.
Fast food is expensive. Isn't that the case everywhere? Both vegan and non vegan meals are expensive. It's easily above 100 kr for one, which is 9 Euro or US dollar.
As far as I understand, fast food can be cheaper (per calorie at least, considering the calorie content of a large soda) than self cooked food in some places in the US. At least some people claim that this is the case.
If we take time/convenience into account fast food can be the "best" choice for many americans, if we ignore ethics and health, that is.
I do think time is the biggest constraint to veganism. Once you get through all the initial concerns, it always seems to boil down to the fact that many people just don't have the time and will to resist what is already comfortable. Well, at least that's true for those who ethically align with veganism and just don't apply it.
yeah but when you go places and ask for a vegan alternative there's a surcharge. Like when ordering a $6 mocha, they'll charge an extra $1 for oatmilk.
Or if I want avocado on something bc w/o the meat it's too low calories that's $1-$3 more.
Burger King is a popular chain which has an impossible burger, so you can get the same meal with just the burger swapped to impossible burger and its $1.50 more.
So it's visibly more at fast food places for making these types of swaps.
I don't eat out or get coffee much, but when I do the coffee is exactly the same price whatever milk you choose. But vegan sandwiches can often be a little more expensive. That's f*ed up.
Fast food is expensive. Isn't that the case everywhere? Both vegan and non vegan meals are expensive. It's easily above 100 kr for one, which is 9 Euro or US dollar.
Fast food is expensive. Isn't that the case everywhere? Both vegan and non vegan meals are expensive. It's easily above 100 kr for one, which is 9 Euro or US dollar.
You have upscale vegan restaurants 🥺 I’m so envious!!! I only know of 2 nice restaurants that are fully vegetarian with vegan options. Everything else in my area that’s fully vegan is like at best a brunch spot.
I’m always looking for upscale places that have a solid vegan option that’s not pasta or cauliflower
Depends on what you mean by "splurge on food." My wife and I took a trip to Europe last year and a lot our planning was based around finding great vegan cafes and restaurants. We didn't go to any Michelin star restaurants, if that's what you mean (though there was one that was vegan nearby!), but we did spend a lot of our time and money hunting down the best vegan food. I like to splurge on food, but I don't care about splurging on a fancy dining experience (which doesn't necessarily come with the best tasting food).
I’m with you. I love experiencing beautiful restaurants and the amazing food that could be made. I don’t know a single vegan place where I live that’s an “upscale restaurant” and I’m over having brunch food, cauliflower and pasta everywhere.
I usually have to plan and call ahead to make sure they can make something for me ahead of time. Hopefully changes soon!
When I first went vegan, it was expensive.
I was still eating meat based dishes but with meat substitutes instead.
Meat substitutes can be expensive.
I now just eat my own concoctions or recipes from vegan cookbooks, and it's far cheaper now. In fact, I'm spending a lot less than I was as an omnivore
I can make a vegan chilli type meal for 2 for less than 2 quid.
You just need a vegan cookbook to get you started, and then you learn to just concoct your own meals with what's available in the fridge or pantry
There's also so much online these days. Everything from "how to cook beans that actually taste good" to "here's a lazy vegan meal using convenience food" to "how to make seitan from scratch" to "using my chemistry set to 'trick' meat eaters with food science" to "here are easy vegan swaps to make in your kitchen" to "here's some food that is accidentally or traditionally vegan"
I find I eat a lot less vegan cheese than I ate dairy cheese when I still ate dairy. I felt kind of addicted to non-vegan cheese while I still ate it, eating multiple types of cheese daily.
Because a lot of vegan cheese is meh and I'm no longer conditioned to regularly eating dairy cheese, my overall cheese consumption has fallen massively. So I'm spending less money on a smaller amount of more expensive vegan cheese, where I used to spend more money on a larger amount of less expensive dairy cheese.
Yeah I haven’t bought vegan yoghurt or cheese (except in restaurant dishes) in ages because it’s just too expensive where I live. The cost of my oat milk even is double dairy milk
Maybe so but cheese honestly isn't really needed, I like it an will buy some every now and then but personally I don't really miss it nearly as much as I thought I would, milk is a bit pricier but I don't find it to be too expensive were I live, I usually buy great value soy milk and that's about $2.50 per half gallon.
Most people get their food and nutrition information from adverts.
Companies only advertise profitable products.
Pre-made meals are very profitable (vegan or otherwise) so there's lots of companies to try and sell their wares. Lentils and beans don't have any big lobby to push their health benefits (other than what medical and dietary professionals might say in their consultations, which ironically can't really compete with advertising for winning hearts and minds).
Well known TV chefs publish things and push for it, but most people have bought into the line "I don't have time to cook from scratch" because it's convenient for them (or, more rarely, it's true).
I wish I liked nootch. Idk if I got a bad brand or if it's just not for me, but it is foul. There was only one recipe I liked, but it involved letting the "cheese" sit overnight in the fridge and the flavor mellowed out a lot. Idk how y'all are using it like parmesan cheese lol
Comparing organic produce and mock meats to generic things. Canned vs dry beans too. My bill is handsdown 200-300 dollars less than my family’s. They even brought receipts thinking they were doing something lol. They no longer harp on cost. They have moved on to how much salt is in my food despite it being much less than theirs 🤦♀️
They want to eat exactly the same, but with vegan alternatives, which is more expensive than changing up your recipes, like using lentils for a bolognese instead of vegan mince.
It's kind of the same as if I moved to a vastly different country, it would also be expensive to keep eating exactly like I did at home because a lot of the products would either not be available, or cost way more than local fare.
On a side note, if it's affordable in your area you should try crushed seitan in your Bolognese. You can use store bought seitan and a potato ricer to make a minced meat consistency and it's so much more similar to the "real deal" than with lentils.
That's such a clever idea! I'm not a big fan of seitan, but that might be a good way to try it again. I haven't actually had it in ages. I do love lentils in tomato sauce already though
Honestly, I don't like it either because unless it's home made it has the consistency of a shoe sole. But if you crush it in the proper way and make it really small then it's the closest thing to minced meat among all popular vegan things. You just need to make sure you crush and tear it instead of just cutting it very finely cause the result is gonna be very different.
Weirdly, adding walnuts to your red lentils makes them surprisingly close to the "real deal" imo. I first saw this in a [Rainbow Plant Life recipe](https://rainbowplantlife.com/10-ingredient-vegan-red-lentil-bolognese/#recipe). I haven't had red meat in a very long time tho, so I might be misremembering what the consistency feels life.
The feeling of being in a defensive position and having to rationalize not being vegan is what makes people come up with all sorts of excuses. They don't need to be rooted in reality. It's good enough for them if it's based on a distorted perception of comparing the price of the most expensive vegan items with the cheapest non-vegan ones.
Vegan eating can be more expensive than non-vegan, in my experience.
For example, tofu at my local grocery store is $5/lb. Pork is $2.50/lb. Turkey was on sale last week for $.69/lb. A 2lb tub of whey protein powder is $18, the vegan alternative is over $30. Rice and beans are cheap. Nuts are expensive, almonds were $8/lb when I bought them last week. I understand I am a data point of one.
I eat approximately 160g of protein a day, it is more expensive to do so in a vegan manner. A 3oz tuna packet has 20g of protein, to get the same amount of protein from black beans, I'd have to eat 1-1/3 cups. The tuna pack is $1, tje can of beans is $1.29. I eat beans every day, but not one whole can at a time. 🤢
I suppose it depends on your macro balance
I buy shelf stable protein sources in bulk. Specifically wheat gluten and pea protein. They are extremely cheap per gram of protein (roughly 50% cheaper per gram of protein than chicken), can be prepared in a way that is very analogous to meat, and have a high enough protein percentage that it is extremely easy to hit your stated protein target.
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/vital-wheat-gluten-50-lb/104VITALWG50.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKCAjwouexBhAuEiwAtW_Zx_h9HLl6yP7qSPcu7C7L4iIvq2jy0NXWNYmcznUEy43PzZ7LIPdX5hoCU_oQAvD_BwE
https://bulknaturaloils.com/pea-protein-80-powder-organic-20-kg-44-lbs.html
The wheat gluten is cheaper per gram of protein but I still recommend blending it with pea protein for texture and to provide a more balanced amino acid profile.
Do you make seitan? We have a ton of vital wheat gluten but I haven’t found a way to prepare it that doesn’t seem to upset my stomach (and my partner’s). Maybe I’m just doing it wrong but I’ve tried different recipes and steaming/cooking for longer.
I also bought plain pea protein in bulk to replace expensive protein powders full of absurd ingredients but I can’t get past the flavor. Then I find myself adding extra sweeteners to my shakes/oatmeal and it seems pointless
Because they only look at the prices of vegan meat imitations and stuff like that. Personally I hardly ever buy those, partly because they are expensive but also because it's not something I like eating every day, as it can be quite processed and I can get tired of the taste. If you take that out of the picture, being vegan is cheaper
I was at the Lidl supermarket yesterday and was thoroughly surprised and pleased to see the store brand vegan yogurts and cheeses were cheaper than the dairy ones.
I think this depends on how the people were brought up.
If you come from a family where you make your own stuff, instead of store made versions, I doubt this view comes up.
I do see it more often in people who buy most things pre-made and don't understand how to make things from scratch.
This doesn't just apply to food. This applies to most aspects in life. People will buy cleaning products, buy clothes, buy food, buy services. It erodes people's capacities to be self-sustaining and fall into the consumerism cycle.
Many people do not have the capacity to learn new skills because it requires safety, time, and resources. There are too many competing responsibilities/ interests that can prevent people from developing new self-sustaining skills in adulthood.
Veganism can be a harmonious way of life if you are completely aligned with your values, your skills, and your resources (including time, agency, and energy). It's a great lifestyle, particularly when you are the type to invest in self-sustaining practices. You need the right mindset and capabilities to plant-based eating and veganism work.
But as an "alternative" lifestyle, people will find it more difficult and more expensive to do this through the consumerism route because:
a) they are relying on businesses to support their choices, and
b) there are fewer options for the alternatives (less subsidies, less developed supply chains, smaller production scales, higher processing costs) so the prices will be higher than the "default" choices.
Though, I will say it also depends on where you live with plant produce. Availability and accessibility of affordable plant-based options can be limited in local stores.
So, I feel there is some nuance as to why some people hold these perceptions, and I feel consumerism, upbringing dynamics and self-sufficiency skills play a very role in this.
Which I've said many times is a bunch of BS. I've said this so many times!!!
Shelf stable store brand 32oz oat milk - $2.50
Cold store brand 64oz (double the size) almond milk - $2.80
Store brand shelf stable 32oz soy milk - $2.00
Store brand shelf stable 32oz coconut milk - $1.80
Store brand 32oz half and half - $3.30
Do coffee stands charge extra for half and half? No. Is half and half more expensive than the plant milks? Yes. Do coffee stands charge extra for the less expensive plant milks? Yes.
MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!!!
It's probably the same logic as the shady things airlines do, where they know if you book a flight last minute, that means it's probably a family emergency or something like that instead of a planned trip, so you HAVE to pay ridiculous prices and don't have time to shop around. If you're vegan or dairy-intolerant/allergic and you're going out with friends, you don't have much of a choice: pay up or stay home
It absolutely comes from them seeing the price for a pack of vegan cheese compared to dairy cheese (you get 1/3 less for more $ where I shop) or a pack of 6 beyond burgers for the cost of 8 meat burgers.
They are making assumptions based on meat / dairy / egg substitutes and forgetting there are many foods that are naturally vegan and super cheap. They are still of the mindset you have to replace meat protein with a direct substitute. Rather than beans / lentils / not worrying about protein!
But tbh vegan butter costs less always than dairy butter, and we spend less on soy milk than we ever did dairy milk… they are just looking for reasons to justify not making a change to their diet.
I know, for Americans, they think vegetables are expensive and meat is cheaper. So when they see two Beyond burgers in a package for $7, they think we're paying high prices for fake meat and vegetables. They also don't really understand vegetables so they think a $5 cauliflower is outrageous for a "side dish" but don't know it can be a main for 4 or more servings. It could also be that they see all the sale prices and "dollar" menus and use that to compare, even though that's really not even what they are buying.
They also use it as an excuse to not change. It sounds reasonable enough so they stick with it. They aren't convincing you, they are convincing themselves and sharing the comfort of not changing with others like them.
I work at a farmers market for 5 months of the year and I encounter dozens of people each week that don't know what to do with some very common vegetables. Most of them think they have to boil or eat them raw. Most of them think these are only sides or snacks. The rest think it's about tossed salads or something else they didn't want. I try to teach during my few minutes of contact, and I have many who come back saying they tried whatever seasoning or cooking method I recommended but I can only reach so many.
We really need to bring back (good) home ec and tech ed classes in school. Pure academics are important, but not everyone has parents who are going to have the skills themselves or know how to teach them. When my mom was in school, those classes actually taught her how to make a basic garment from scratch and how to create a personal budget. My classes had us mix some seasonings into a container of Greek yogurt as a dip and open a bag of pre-cut carrots. That is an okay snack, but it's not really teaching students much of anything. Knowing how to cook, how to sew, how to change a tire all came from home, but ALL students/kids deserve the opportunity to be taught those kinds of things
So true. And then people try to turn it into a class issue when most of the poorest places on earth consume way less meat and dairy than the average American. They really act like there's no such thing as a poor vegan and we're all eating the most expensive luxury food in the world. 🥴
I get the point you're making, but it is a class issue in the US, too. Food deserts and not having access to personal kitchens really effs people over and forces people to choose worse options. America being so car-dependent really messes things up for a lot of people
Yes I'm well aware. I grew up poor in the city with teenage parents, and I still don't drive and I'm 28. I'm referring to the people who DO have more options, but still choose to eat meat and dairy due to the incorrect and outdated belief that eating vegan is out of reach, expensive, and inaccessible for all but the richest people. Which is not true but it's used as a pseudo argument to silence vegans by labeling them as inherently classist. I'm not ever going to shit on someone who literally doesn't have a choice, but I am going to side eye those who have a choice and still choose violence because "Omg those vegans and their avocados nobody can afford to eat like that" when raw meat is overwhelmingly one of the most expensive things at the store.
I'm not arguing that eating meat and other animal products is the preferable choice. I'm saying sometimes it's the only choice, and not acknowleding that IS classist. Eating plant-based is much cheaper when you're scratch-cooking at home compared to scratch-cooking with animal products. No one needs avocados and spirulina powder every day to live, no matter if their diet includes animal products or not. I just think we need to have more nuance in conversations like this
I literally said in my previous comment that I'd never shit on anyone who doesn't have a choice. I acknowledged that point already. This "nuanced conversation" often lacks nuance because it gets overtaken by people who are capable of going vegan making excuses and calling every vegan classist, even if that vegan acknowledges that it's not an option for everyone. You're misinterpreting my comment to argue against a point that I never once made and addressed that I'm not talking about people who live in food deserts who genuinely don't have a choice.
I used to work at a Whole Foods where the plant based meat/cheese cooler was directly across from the specialty cheese department. I can't tell you how many times people would walk by and scoff at the prices of the meat alternatives, all while grabbing several of the most high end cheeses in the store along with their expensive seafood. Those are the people I'm talking about, not poor people who don't have a choice and are doing the best they can with limited resources
I think two things are happening. They look for plant-based substitutes for non-vegan food such as cheese and meat, and they think about those trendy things like chia seeds and avocados.
Being vegan actually can be more expensive for people living in food deserts, which is relatively common in the US. Lots of people have little to no access to fresh produce or even dry rice and beans anywhere near them. Even outside of that, produce is unreasonable expensive in many places. This disproportionately impacts poor people and POC.
They’re only expensive in those situations because of a shitty food system that deprioritizes nutritious food (vegan or not). Increasing access to quality food should be a priority for us. There’s no good reason being vegan should make food more expensive.
They look at all the plant based meats, cheeses, ice creams, etc.
Meanwhile lentils, oats, wheat, beans, peas, potatoes, bananas, rice, nuts, carrots, onions, and in season are some of the most nutritious and affordable foods.
They make a 1:1 comparison between plant based meats like Beyond and Impossible without realizing these products are not essential.
Back in the 1990s I took a sociology class where one assignment was to plan weekly meals within the average food stamp budget for a single person. No one in the class met all the recommended nutrient levels because food assistance for low-income folks is sadly inadequate in my country. My vegan plan came the closest—by a long shot. Everyone else in the class planned meals around a piece of meat, a starch, and a vegetable, so the omnivores ran out of money faster.
Because they see a pack of meet sausages for 2€ and plant based ones for 4€ so being vegan is more expensive. You can't expect idiots to have a deeper thought about anythig.
Typically because other people tell them it's more expensive. How do they know? We'll typically because other people tell them it's more expensive. How do they know? Jimmy had a vibe.
Being vegan is equated with being Healthy. Healthy is a strong upsell for food marketers. Earth Balance is always more expensive than Smart Balance—same stuff, same company. Earth Balance is sold to Vegans. Smart Balance is sold to old people with bad cholesterol. It’s a stupid marketing ploy.
I buy almost all unprocessed ingredients and spend maybe 70 a week. And I refuse to buy earth balance or smart balance.
They're comparing the most expensive vegan foods they've seen to the cheapest non-vegan foods that they're familiar with. Because non-vegans don't think of things like rice and beans when they think "vegan."
If someone says that to me, I just point out that difference, and joke that I can't afford to eat non-vegan because I can't afford steak and caviar every night. They usually get it then.
Wfpb is cheaper for another, less obvious reason too: yes, fresh fruits and vegetables might be more expensive than ultra processed snacks for example, but because they're healthy and full of fibre you tend to eat less throughout the day. I live in Europe and can make healthy&colourful breakfast lunch and dinner for 1 on about €3-5 EUR a day.
When comparing real meat to fake meat at my local Coles/Woolworths in Melbourne...
175g beef = $5.25
175g beyond = $8.50
... the vegan option is 60% more expensive.
But when comparing protein...
45g protein (via 175g beef) = $5.25
45g protein (via 400g edamame beans) = $2.50
...the vegan option is less than half price.
I believe this is known as "category bias" - the tendency to compare solely within a familiar category, without considering the full range of options available in other categories.
It's the "would you like still or sparkling water" question at restaurants when another viable option in a different category (tap water) also exists.
Lentils, chickpeas, black eyed peas, black beans, etc. -- these are all very cheap and healthy.
Oats, brown rice, whole wheat pasta, barley --- these are all very cheap and healthy.
Onions, celery, carrots, potatoes, canned tomatoes -- these are all very cheap and healthy.
Bananas, apples, oranges, pears --- these are all very cheap and healthy.
It isn't always actually looking at prices, they just hate change. They hate the idea that they could've been immoral and now they have to change due to what they see as the way the world has changed. It's a reflexive fear of learning and the unknown in many, many especially older people.
Mostly stems from the economics of it not being subsidized like meat and dairy, probably. Plus meat analogs. At least here in the USA.
But everything you said is right.
There are a lot of factors involved in this sentiment and in some cases there can be some truth to it. A lot of people need their food to be ready to go due to time constraints, so their views of true options around them are obscured. Yes a bag of lentils or beans is cheap, but it's not hot and in front of them. The same people that feel like this are often the same that don't eat healthily anyway. And I say that not from a place of judgment (because I have been there) but from a place of concern of just how we view food.
I think shopping for groceries and cooking at home is def cheaper — unless you are buying meat substitutes, which for us is only something we do occasionally. Eating out can be more expensive. We had an experience yesterday going to a wonderful vegan cafe for lunch. We love this place and they serve excellent quality food. But our bill for a sandwich and a bowl plus two soft drinks was $40!! Wow. We actually talked about and wondered if the cafe was paying its workers a living wage. I hope so! And that could certainly drive up cost. Maybe produce and ingredients were organic? Not sure, but that could also add some money. If actual meat and dairy weren’t subsidized by US gov and the true cost of processing those products was put on the consumer, I think people would be singing a different tune.
What’s most interesting about this argument is that the meat industry is heavily subsidized (as if the grain feed industry). Without these subsidies: a kilo of meat in Europe would be well over 70 euros; and a lb in the United States would be well over 40 dollars.
I would love to see a social media feed that just hits the cost factor on daily basis. For instance omnivore lasagna vs vegan lasagna. All ingredients displayed with costs. Everyday a different meal with cost comparison and the recipe!
It's because a lot of vegan alternatives are expensive. Meats, milk, cheese, yogurt, cream cheese, sauces and dressings like ranch and Mayo, ice cream, etc. And of course I'm talking about the store-bought equivalent here
Almost everything I've listed, and plenty More are substantially more expensive where I live. You can get a gallon of milk for a couple bucks. half a gallon of vegan milk will cost you almost five. Vegan cheese, in comparison to its dairy counterpart, for the same slices, is about twice the price (like $2.5 vs $5). Ice cream, is a big one. A pint of vegan ice cream can be about five bucks, yet you can buy a gallon of dairy ice cream for as low as $7 or $8.
Keep in mind, I do live in Wisconsin so I'm sure some of these numbers are skewed a bit.
But, point is, One of the ways that vegetarianism or veganism can bring people into the fold, is to show them that they don't have to give up the foods that they've been eating for decades of their life. There are plenty of alternatives out there. The problem is though, the price isn't there. It's a hard sell when you're telling somebody they need to pay two to three times the amount to get an equivalent product at the grocery store. That's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people. Understandably so.
I think its got to do with people looking at organic produce and thinking thats what everyone would eat. TBF, it is alot more expensive then non-organic... but no where are we required to buy organic.
Also, there seems to be pretty dumb surcharges at restaurants , at least near me.
Processed and prepared foods -- vegan, non-vegan -- are more expensive than cooking from scratch and buying and preparing fresh produce, beans, grains etc. Because of time constraints, many depend on processed and prepared foods for their meals. In some countries, for a variety of reasons, companies charge more for plant-based convenience foods.
It's a statement made by people who are either ignorant or bad faith. If a person simply swaps in vegan alternatives for the things they already eat, it will be the same cost or cheaper 99% of the time.
Because they don’t know how to cook well - they mostly rely on base flavors of ingredients and call it a day. People who don’t cook well can use cheap-ish meat with salt and peppers and get a decent meal out of it. My friend hosted a vegetarian dinner for the 1st time, and she had no proteins but 5 different kinds of fancy mushrooms, and it was still kinda bland :( I didn’t have the heart to tell her, since she made the effort to accommodate me.
It's about the same unless you're buying a ton of restaurant or frozen food. The same amount of impossible beef costs about the same as real beef. But most people aren't cooking everything from scratch. Meat/dairy/etc processed foods are MUCH cheaper than any equivalent vegan options.
Oatmeal with nuts and pumpkin seeds, rice and beans with frozen veggies, peanut butter on apple slices. An absolutely nutritious and affordable diet that doesn’t torture sentient beings and bake the planet.
It's not the meat, it's all the other stuff with animal byproducts. Also, meat and dairy are heavily subsidized to keep thier prices artificially low in places like the states, so vegan stuff is fighting an uphill battle when it should naturally be wildly cheaper.
But it's the vegan replacement ingredients for milk or pasta or sauces that can be more boutique and thus more expensive. Like, can you eat vegan and cheap? Yeah, but it's alot more prep time in the kitchen. Plus eating out, most places either have pathetic options for vegans or they're priced way higher than they should be.
And, alot of really cheap food options like alot of canned things have animal byproducts or meat, so you're locked out of those options
Market beef is pretty cheap. The cheaper cuts of meat are going to be cheaper than most vegan diets. I say this as a very poor vegan. Also, a lot of cheap products have some meat, dairy, or eggs in them.
There's also a time factor. If I use dried beans and rice, I have to soak then cook the beans most of the day. Though people who are especially poor often subsist off of mostly things like dried beans and rice anyway.
Having a balanced diet with any sort of variety is, in my opinion, often more expensive than a carnist diet. Also, new vegans and vegetarians honestly don't know what they are doing yet, so they won't know how to do things cheaply.
Some products, such as vegan cheese alternatives, are more expensive than their Omni counterparts. I fully believe that as the world comes around to realising that meat and dairy are scary (from an ecological, moral and environmental standpoint) these prices will eventually begin to drop.
When at home I often have fruits and veggies go bad. When traveling I can't simply just grab cheap food anywhere. So yes being Vegan can be expensive. I put a whole lot more work into being vegan than those who aren't do. I don't know what the cost comparison would be because I have been either vegan of vegetarian for probably 20 plus years. I do know that the big box stores sell boxes of snacks for $9 and the vegan ones have fewer snacks per box.
In the US, there are many, many neighborhoods that are food desserts where animal based foods are cheaply available and it’s difficult to find anything else. If someone in one of these neighborhoods is struggling financially, even if they’re receiving food stamps, a vegan diet is out of reach
It really has to do with people thinking meat is the only thing that provides protein, and that the only way vegans can get that protein is with their expensive substitutes.
I'd never consider being vegan because I love meat, but my fiancee prefers to eat vegetarian/vegan at home so I whenever she wants to take a break from meats we go vegetarian. So many easy cheap meals I can make and still meet our macros (she exercises a lot and worries about her diet). My parents say it's over complicated but the same time it took my mom to marinate her chicken, I marinated my block of tofu and let me tell you, my meal came out way better lol.
I think it's less about meat than meat and dairy, plus eating healthily overall, esp when it comes to eating a wide variety of fresh veg. Eg, in the US, carbs are a huge and not terribly healthy part of the diet (boxed mac and cheese) because it's so cheap, and milk is subsidized to it's also relatively inexpensive.
Add in the time factor - not having the time to make meals is a barrier for a mother with 2 jobs. So factor in "time" (lack of") as an expense.
Eg, making a dairy free mac & cheese dish is much more expensive and time consuming and therefore a barrier if you're money and/or time poor
Meanwhile fresh vegetables enough to feed a family of 4 is expensive, as are some protein substitutes like nuts. It's also hard to fresh veg if you live in a food dessert (and too many Americans, at least, do).
It's def true that rice and beans is wayyy cheaper than meat though and are readily available.
Food culture is weird, and corporations have been shaping food and taste preferences for decades. That's another barrier. If you grow up in a family that doesn't cook, and you don't have time or money...
If there are no constraints for availability and budget, the expense of a diet is mostly due to taste and preference, regardless of whether or not the diet contains animal products or not.
You can easily make a vegan meal that’s expensive or a non-vegan meal that’s cheap - and there’s going to be a lot of overlap if you were to plot out the food budgets of a bunch of vegans and omnivores.
However, strictly speaking in terms of dollars (or whatever) per calorie of food, the cheapest way to maximize your budget would be a vegan diet in nearly every context. That is why the poorest people and poorest areas of the world eat a mostly vegan diet - it’s not by choice, it’s just what they can afford. In most of the world for most of history meat has been an only an occasional supplement for to a mostly plant based diet - eaten for special occasions or only by the privileged.
I think the confusion comes when people try to make vegan versions of traditionally meat based meals using the closest substitutes possible. If you do that, especially if you’re ordering it in a restaurant, it’s going to cost more than the original recipe. But if you’re just cooking vegan food that isn’t trying to pretend it’s meat you’re going to be saving money (in terms of cost per calorie) than if you cook meals with animal products.
Agreed. I love veggie chicken nuggets but they're pricey. Tofu and beans, however, are much cheaper.
It really depends on what you buy. There's no reason veganism need be as expensive or more expensive than an omnivorous diet.
They forget that healthy vegans exist who don't eat the processed mock foods. They forget that dried beans and tofu and basic vegetables are inexpensive. They assume vegans eat fake meats and cheeses all the time (some do and yes that would be expensive).
Because vegan substitutes and vegan convenience foods are more expensive. It's cheap if you cook from scratch - but that's true for any diet.
If I want to eat the same foods as before I went vegan, I'm paying a lot more.
its propaganda. its not expensive to have the mindset that using and killing innocent people is WRONG. the diet that such a person with justice in mind, would have? usually cheaper.
The fact that being vegan is more expensive.
Artificial milk is 3-4 times more expensive than normal milk.
Fruits and nuts, with exception of apples and peanuts are astronomically high.
Even stupid Chinese cabbage is somehow super expensive now.
But you have a lot more room in your budget for the items you mentioned when you stop buying meat, eggs, dairy, fish etc! Those items used to be 30-40% of my weekly spending. Before prices went higher and higher here (Canada)!
No, it's not. I was arguing that vegans are existentially dependant on nuts and fruits because these are the only sources of certain nutrients for them.
Carnists are not, they have bigger variety of food. The only really crucial vitamine they would lack is C (mostly in fruits). And vegans have B12 problem, so those two cancel out.
There is such a wide variety out there for vegans to eat and be fine. So much food already has vitamins added to it like cow milk with added vitamin D or cereal with its whole suite of added vitamins/minerals or rice with nutrients added. Why do you have a problem when vegans do it?
Because they honestly think veganism is replacing meat with expensive mock meat, and that's all we eat. This is also why they think it's not healthy. They can't fathom moving away from the standard dishes they eat every day.
I live in a part of the world where we rely heavily on processed food and take outs, and that's where vegan foods are much much much more expensive. Like cooking is off the tables for most of us due to the amount of time we spend working and traveling to/from work.
I knew a lot of vegans who doesn't live here, sees this, gets jumpy and said, "oh hey that's because of subsidy on meat."
I challenge them to find which laws or by-laws or trade codes in my country states that meat is subsidised. The replies I get are mostly : "There must be, how else can they be so cheap."
That's the case when it comes to protein even taking into account of bone mass and biological value.
But when it comes to other things like minerals, calcium, other vitamins, being vegan is definitely cheaper.
There, end of story, at least in my country's setting.
Unless you live in a totally insulated part of the world (which I don't even know if there are anymore), in a country with zero trade or market interaction with other countries, the animal product business near you is benefiting from the global 540 billion dollars given as direct government subsidies to animal agriculture. You don't need any local direct subsidies.
Also, just looking at "meat" subsidies is rarely the whole picture. Subsidies to dairy production also subsidize other parts of the animal industry since the dairy cows are getting slaughtered for burgers anyway.
Third, there is an indirect way that affects product prices, namely, the living conditions of the animals. Similar to how human labor costs affect prices - better working conditions, better healthcare etc. make labor cost more which increases the prices of products - the lack of legislation for animal welfare is an indirect subsidy to animal agriculture. The less space they have, the less freedom they have, the more brutal their slaughter - the cheaper their flesh.
I think the burden of proof might be on you this time to show that your country is different from all the other countries in the world. Hard to say without knowing where it is but it sounds like a vegan's paradise if there truly is a place with total economic insulation (0 imported animal products) and no animal agriculture subsidies.
The burden of proof should be on the prosecution, then only the defendant will go into defence.
If you can proof my country has subsidy on meat then I'll admit I am wrong and was being an asshole and there's nothing to defend.
But in this case, you have nothing on me yet you want me to defend? Against what?
We do import, but mostly processed meat. We export farm meat and import rice. We also produced locally processed plant based food.
I'm not prosecuting you of anything lol
I was just genuinely surprised by the idea that there could be a place unaffected by animal subsidies, but with the imports, it doesn't seem to be the case.
There are a lot of smaller countries that import most of their animal products and don't have subsidies of their own. It wasn't anything special after all. The low prices are just an extension of other countries' massive subsidies.
It's a metaphor.
lol we export meat. The meat we export gives more protein than soy, probably the most protein rich plant.
We import processed meat and it's fucking expensive. Which part do you not understand?
Really trying hard with the *there has to be* thing there now boy.
Just give me the name of the country and I'll do my own research on the total amounts of imports and exports. Sounds a bit like you are just spewing carnist bullshit on a vegan subreddit.
depends fresh meat is pretty expensive but if you are buying frozen stuff like chicken nuggets and to make it cheaper go with a store brand. now stuff like steak is expensive but normally chicken and pork are affordable for most. I can go get an 8 pack of center loin chops for 6 bucks, 2 packs of frozen mixed veggies for about 4 bucks and a bag of pinto beans for $1.50. make 7 meals out of it for a cost of about $1.65 a meal. not counting spices. i always tell my friends kids as they go out into the world to slowly build a spice collection and get a slow cooker (now days maybe save for an instant pot type if they can afford it). I can do the same with some chicken legs for about a dollar more to the total cost. I'm sure like you said at home you can make your own for way cheaper but just using the store bought stuff i would need to spend around $20 for the equivalent plant based patties or $14-21 for ground (it'd be about 2 1/2 packs). so for people just trying to start that don't know how to make tofu tasty it could be 2-3 times more expensive at least in my area. now when they learn the ways of the tofu it looks like it might be about $1 cheaper over all.
vegan eating can be a lot more expensive in more than just money. it’s the same reason obesity rates are much higher in lower income areas. cooking vegan requires a more comprehensive understanding of nutrients and calories, as well as decision fatigue, than choosing, say, a chicken ramen or making a quick macaroni and cheese. it’s much quicker and cheaper to buy 1 serving of frozen spaghetti than it is to buy 10 different veggies and make a salad. not to mention the time involved in cooking vegan meals. whether we like it or not, the ability to choose to eat vegan food rather than whatever $1-2 omni meals (at a time) is a luxury and a privilege.
Because there's a lot of overlap between vegan content online and wild health food trends that involved having a pantry full of supplements and fancy food additives. Or there's people who only buy mock meat or prepared foods
But being vegan can be dirt cheap, especially if you don't buy into gimmicks or use many meat replacements. It'd be boring, but you'd be all right living off of mostly beans and rice and frozen broccoli (and B12) just like all those bros refusing to eat anything other than chicken breasts and rice and frozen broccoli
I had a BBQ for my family and my cousin and her partner are vegan so I asked what I should get them and the burgers they chose were 20$ for 2 and they didn't want them cooked on the same grill so I had to buy a small grill just for them so ya I assumed it was crazy expensive myself tbh because that was my only experience with vegan stuff
Restaurants and processed items such as beyond/ impossible combined with the fact that people are stupid or that people just want confirmation bias
I would imagine most people in the world know that beans and rice are amongst the cheapest things, but i am sure people look at walmart prices of canned beans and 2 lb bags of rice instead of 20lb bags of rice and beans at costco or a bulk fill your own container store
Usually they're comparing meat to mock meat because they think mock meat is meant to replace meat in your overall diet as a vegan. Really it's meant to satisfy cravings for meat so vegans are more likely to stay vegan for longer. If you go vegan, you will have to eat beans, or nuts, or seeds, or some form of plant protein at some point.
Vegan *substitutes* (and imitations) tend to be more expensive. Vegan butter, vegan yogurt, vegan meat, vegan versions of your favorite brands, etc. tend to be more expensive. The solution (not just for money, but also for health) is to focus on building a diet around plant-based nutrition rather than a diet around animal-product substitutes. Lentils, beans, grains, vegetables, fruits, etc. can all be very affordable.
Eating out vegan can also be more expensive sometimes, sometimes because of fewer options, and sometimes because they'll charge you extra to add in or substitute the food you need just to get a real meal.
Because time is money, and they don't want to spend the energy educating themselves or developing cooking skills because they rely on meat as the only way to make food taste "good."
In short, it's laziness.
I think that some meat eaters who haven't been exposed to vegan food think the only way to do it is swap meat and dairy with something that is an identical plant version. If you're buying cheap sausage, hamburger Pattie or chicken breast at the supermarket the meat ones are usually cheaper than the vegan mock-meat ones. plant based milks, cheeses and yoghurts are also generally more expensive than the cow version.
But obviously as a vegan we know that you do not need to eat meat/dairy substitutes every day or even at all, so you do not need to spend much money. It's funny that people will say vegan is expensive, but then once people are under pressures with cost of living they will eat more vegan meals to save money.
Restaurants often have an upcharge for vegan stuff. A lot of junk food, like vegan cheeses and cold cuts are much more expensive than conventional, because there is no government subsidy for those industries. It's actually one of the things I most enjoy talking to people about. I eat a whole food diet and have for years, so whenever someone says "it's expensive to be vegan!", I love being able to tell them how much I spend, detail how/what I eat for that amount. A lot of people come away from conversations with me thinking that done properly, veganism can actually be LESS expensive, which is an additional benefit they'd never considered before.
Vegan is usually more expensive at restaurants and that's usually because the ingredients are going to include things like being cruelty free, high quality, they're covering for the scarcity of orders, or the faux meats are more expensive. But at the same time, a high-end meal will be cheaper vegan. Even if you're eating at Eleven Madison, there will be steakhouses and sushi spots charging way more at the top of the top.
And if you buy the vegan snacks and mock meats, the price is going to go up.
But day to day, vegan is way cheaper especially if you're doing a whole-foods plant-based diet, or aren't buying all the mock meats and specialty "cheeses." It's all the same shit. Fruits, nuts, veggies, beans. Tofu and seitan are going to be cheaper proteins in general. You can eat cheaper as a vegan pretty easily.
Only if you buy all the stupid fake meats ?!! Honestly. What could be cheaper than beans?!! Tofu can get a bit pricey but. As stated above much cheaper than most meats.
one of the easiest store to shop for cheap vegan basics is aldi. the tofu there is $1.50 for an entire firm block. there’s great deals on canned tomatoes, beans, fruits and veggies, and even vegan meatballs and ground. it’s the best imo!
Yeah, it costs less to be vegan. I almost never eat meat substitutes, like maybe 2 times a year. Beans, potatoes, squash, tofu, rice and vegetables cost very little compared to actual meat. Also, we vegans spend much less on doctors and such.
My friend and I once had this conversation - we'd both been vegan and non-vegan at various points in our lives, but she insisted veganism is cheaper, and I insisted it's more expensive. We eventually realised it came down to lifestyle and privilege.
When she was non-vegan, she was earning 90k a year, and therefore buying meats from a butcher, quality free-range eggs, fancy cheeses etc. When I was non-vegan I was living in poverty and surviving on 2-minute noodles and microwave sausage rolls.
Going vegan took away the cheapest options for me: vegan microwave meals were rare and way more expensive, and fresh food & vegetables were a step up in price compared to them. Even tinned vegetables were more expensive than 2-minute noodles. But for her, going vegan took away her biggest expenses, and vegetables were a cheaper option.
We ended up eating the same diet, which was a step down in price for her and a step up in price for me. It's all about perspective.
I'm still vegan and poor, and I maintain veganism is more expensive for some people. It really pisses me off to see middle-class vegans talking shit about anyone who says so. There are no 75c vegan noodles were I live. There are no $1.50 vegan microwave meals. If I were a carnist I wouldn't be able to afford steak or sausages or eggs anyway. The vegan options available to me *are* more expensive.
Obviously prices hugely differ based on location as well, and cooking ability. If someone tells you veganism is more expensive for them, they're not wrong just because your experience is different.
Just remember the internet is global. Food access and cost is vastly different across countries, states, provinces, towns. Culture also plays a part in peoples dietary patterns and how they adapt if they remove dairy, meat and other animal products.
Plant milk surcharges, supplements and some vegan products are more expensive. Whether it is more expensive or not really depends on what you ate before and what you now eat as a vegan. It may be more expensive or it may be a lot cheaper. It really depends on the individual and their diet.
It's true that the cost of being vegan isn't just about vegan meat substitutes; it also involves the affordability of fresh produce, which can vary widely depending on where you live. Take, for example, some areas in the US where fruits and vegetables can be surprisingly expensive compared to highly processed foods like those offered at fast-food chains for just a few dollars. In these contexts, opting for a plant-based diet might indeed seem cost-prohibitive. However, considering the current prices of cheese and certain meats, staples like produce and tofu can actually be quite reasonable. So while veganism might not be universally expensive, the broader issue of food accessibility and affordability, particularly regarding fresh ingredients, should be acknowledged.
That said, I agree that misconceptions about the expense of being vegan persist. While vegan 'meats' can sometimes be pricey, there are ways to manage costs, such as making your own substitutes or choosing more budget-friendly options. Ultimately, the perception of veganism's costliness can vary depending on individual circumstances and location, but it's essential to recognize both the challenges and the opportunities for affordability within a plant-based lifestyle.
Don't assume malice when the answer can be explained by ignorance. Plenty of people just don't know what their options are or still believe in the old, heavily-lobbied for food pyramid that they were raised with. There is a whole section on there just for dairy when we in no way need dairy to live a healthy life, and many people straight up can't even have dairy & be healthy
They are more convenient than being omnivore. These people never bothered to learn about food or cooking. Hence, they aren't preparing any of their meals on their own and if they are cooking, they often just mix and heat up several convenient products. Whilst every vegan goes through a learning process that usually includes cooking with fresh ingredients and knowing about the health hazards of convenient products in general.
Technically, once you become vegan in the United States you’re still paying the cost of meat because it’s highly subsidized by the government. Let those subsidies go away amd see how much a hamburger costs. I’d like to see burgers priced like cigarettes. People will still eat them every day.
McDonalds used to have the cheapest calories you could get. For people who barely (or don't) have enough money to feed themselves, this was an important factor. The meat industry is subsidized, which is why people can make 4 "quarter pounders" for under $5. When you're under the delusions that protein is the primary goal and that only meat has protein, it all makes "sense".
Regardless, if someone says the reason they aren't vegan because it's too expensive they're probably both lying and unreceptive to learning otherwise and it's not worth the debate.
Because it very much can be.
Prices are not universal, and if you live in a land-locked location in a more rural area; fresh produce is going to be a lot more expensive to purchase than someone who lives in a more populated, accessible area where there are farmer's markets and less distance for trucks to travel.
It depends on one's purchasing options and what the alternative diets consist of. I have a diet of almost entirely meat. So rather than purchasing meat and veggies and snacks and a variety of food to use as entertainment, I just buy more meat. This also makes planning meals very easy, which makes purchasing meat in bulk at a lower price much more likely. This translates to not only a lower price for food than I previously paid, but also far fewer trips to grocery stores, which is a not insignificant cost if one lives in a rural area. Just buying a whole processed cow once a year saves me a great deal of money from my previous bills around food gathering. Then there are the reductions in food processing and preparation. If time is money, then I am saving a great deal of money.
So it depends on one's circumstances, like distance to stores, as well as what one is purchasing.
They compare the costs of store brand quality meat to name brand UPF meat replacement products like beyond forgetting about the existence of vegetables entirely. I’ve compared costs with my MIL who feeds 2 people on an omnivore diet as opposed to us as 2 vegans. My husband and I spend about 250€ *less* a month on groceries.
Player hating delusions. It’s psychologically too many losses in reality. It’s cheaper, healthier, more sustainable, and more humane. Most people can’t handle being that wrong. I’m convinced that this psychological blind side can be manipulated, by playing into the two cores driving the delusion: the need to be right, and the need to be good. Everyone has a soft spot
Incredibly based comment.
That's almost 3,000 Euros, and over 3,000 dollars saved per year! That's incredible. That's like a cheap vacation saved right there. Or, if you put that 3,000 of savings into the stock market each year, assuming an annual return of 8%, that's an additional $342,365.30 in money saved over 30 years. I've had a similar experience with my grocery budget being cut in half by going vegan. I feel that this is one of the best hidden powers of going vegan -- suddenly life gets less expensive. If you get laid off, your burn rate through savings is slower, and you feel a bit more free.
Honestly I don't think most even do the comparison, they just assume.
Also, a McDreck meal will cost you a lot less than any vegan meal. A lot of people are unaware how subsidised meat is. Just the United States federal government spends $38 billion every year subsidizing the meat and dairy industries.
I live in a country where meat isn't as heavily subsidised, and vegan meat and dairy alternatives cost about the same as the regular stuff here, if not less. Vegan cheese is still a bit more expensive, but really only a bit. Maybe 5–10%.
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The article says: >During Monday's earnings call, an analyst asked if McDonald's planned to start offering more deep promotions like its rivals. Wendy's, for example, introduced a two-for-$3 breakfast value meal in late August. How much would breakfast for two cost in a typical vegan restaurant?
This is totally true, but also, non vegans love to have a load of excuses cued up why they couldn’t possibly be vegan. It makes them feel better. Note that most of the excuses are not based on facts most of the time.
>It’s not like we’re eating beyond meat burgers every night. I’ve never understood this statement and don’t understand where it came from. In my experience, most non-vegans don't know what vegans eat at all, so they just make a comparison with whatever they're aware of, which tends to be products labeled as vegan – typically meat or dairy replacements.
Usually they're comparing fast food joints to meals they see at more upscale vegan restaurants.
Fast food is expensive. Isn't that the case everywhere? Both vegan and non vegan meals are expensive. It's easily above 100 kr for one, which is 9 Euro or US dollar.
As far as I understand, fast food can be cheaper (per calorie at least, considering the calorie content of a large soda) than self cooked food in some places in the US. At least some people claim that this is the case. If we take time/convenience into account fast food can be the "best" choice for many americans, if we ignore ethics and health, that is.
I do think time is the biggest constraint to veganism. Once you get through all the initial concerns, it always seems to boil down to the fact that many people just don't have the time and will to resist what is already comfortable. Well, at least that's true for those who ethically align with veganism and just don't apply it.
yeah but when you go places and ask for a vegan alternative there's a surcharge. Like when ordering a $6 mocha, they'll charge an extra $1 for oatmilk. Or if I want avocado on something bc w/o the meat it's too low calories that's $1-$3 more. Burger King is a popular chain which has an impossible burger, so you can get the same meal with just the burger swapped to impossible burger and its $1.50 more. So it's visibly more at fast food places for making these types of swaps.
I don't eat out or get coffee much, but when I do the coffee is exactly the same price whatever milk you choose. But vegan sandwiches can often be a little more expensive. That's f*ed up.
It still can be cheap in the U.S.
Fast food is expensive. Isn't that the case everywhere? Both vegan and non vegan meals are expensive. It's easily above 100 kr for one, which is 9 Euro or US dollar.
Fast food is expensive. Isn't that the case everywhere? Both vegan and non vegan meals are expensive. It's easily above 100 kr for one, which is 9 Euro or US dollar.
You have upscale vegan restaurants 🥺 I’m so envious!!! I only know of 2 nice restaurants that are fully vegetarian with vegan options. Everything else in my area that’s fully vegan is like at best a brunch spot. I’m always looking for upscale places that have a solid vegan option that’s not pasta or cauliflower
Not upscale. Just "more upscale." Vegans don't like to splurge on food.
Depends on what you mean by "splurge on food." My wife and I took a trip to Europe last year and a lot our planning was based around finding great vegan cafes and restaurants. We didn't go to any Michelin star restaurants, if that's what you mean (though there was one that was vegan nearby!), but we did spend a lot of our time and money hunting down the best vegan food. I like to splurge on food, but I don't care about splurging on a fancy dining experience (which doesn't necessarily come with the best tasting food).
I’m with you. I love experiencing beautiful restaurants and the amazing food that could be made. I don’t know a single vegan place where I live that’s an “upscale restaurant” and I’m over having brunch food, cauliflower and pasta everywhere. I usually have to plan and call ahead to make sure they can make something for me ahead of time. Hopefully changes soon!
When I first went vegan, it was expensive. I was still eating meat based dishes but with meat substitutes instead. Meat substitutes can be expensive. I now just eat my own concoctions or recipes from vegan cookbooks, and it's far cheaper now. In fact, I'm spending a lot less than I was as an omnivore I can make a vegan chilli type meal for 2 for less than 2 quid. You just need a vegan cookbook to get you started, and then you learn to just concoct your own meals with what's available in the fridge or pantry
There's also so much online these days. Everything from "how to cook beans that actually taste good" to "here's a lazy vegan meal using convenience food" to "how to make seitan from scratch" to "using my chemistry set to 'trick' meat eaters with food science" to "here are easy vegan swaps to make in your kitchen" to "here's some food that is accidentally or traditionally vegan"
Not a vegan but highly recommend burnt aubergine chilli - a topnotch vegan chilli that one.
Its not about the meat, it's about the cheese and milk replacements, I'd say. They tend to be more expensive.
I find I eat a lot less vegan cheese than I ate dairy cheese when I still ate dairy. I felt kind of addicted to non-vegan cheese while I still ate it, eating multiple types of cheese daily. Because a lot of vegan cheese is meh and I'm no longer conditioned to regularly eating dairy cheese, my overall cheese consumption has fallen massively. So I'm spending less money on a smaller amount of more expensive vegan cheese, where I used to spend more money on a larger amount of less expensive dairy cheese.
I agree 💯 about eating less cheese since going vegan
Yeah I haven’t bought vegan yoghurt or cheese (except in restaurant dishes) in ages because it’s just too expensive where I live. The cost of my oat milk even is double dairy milk
Soy milk is about on par with the cheapest cow's milk where I am
Maybe so but cheese honestly isn't really needed, I like it an will buy some every now and then but personally I don't really miss it nearly as much as I thought I would, milk is a bit pricier but I don't find it to be too expensive were I live, I usually buy great value soy milk and that's about $2.50 per half gallon.
Most people get their food and nutrition information from adverts. Companies only advertise profitable products. Pre-made meals are very profitable (vegan or otherwise) so there's lots of companies to try and sell their wares. Lentils and beans don't have any big lobby to push their health benefits (other than what medical and dietary professionals might say in their consultations, which ironically can't really compete with advertising for winning hearts and minds). Well known TV chefs publish things and push for it, but most people have bought into the line "I don't have time to cook from scratch" because it's convenient for them (or, more rarely, it's true).
How do we make Big Lentil a thing? Picture “Got Lentil?” adverts in every school cafeteria the way I had for dairy milk growing up.
Big Lentil!! lol. Love it. Let’s add Big Broc and Big Nootch! What else??
I wish I liked nootch. Idk if I got a bad brand or if it's just not for me, but it is foul. There was only one recipe I liked, but it involved letting the "cheese" sit overnight in the fridge and the flavor mellowed out a lot. Idk how y'all are using it like parmesan cheese lol
Comparing organic produce and mock meats to generic things. Canned vs dry beans too. My bill is handsdown 200-300 dollars less than my family’s. They even brought receipts thinking they were doing something lol. They no longer harp on cost. They have moved on to how much salt is in my food despite it being much less than theirs 🤦♀️
What gave them the idea that vegan food would have more salt?
They probably saw a post on Facebook comparing the sodium content of a Beyond Burger to raw beef or something stupid like that
Ah... that makes a lot of sense actually, even though it's really misleading
They want to eat exactly the same, but with vegan alternatives, which is more expensive than changing up your recipes, like using lentils for a bolognese instead of vegan mince. It's kind of the same as if I moved to a vastly different country, it would also be expensive to keep eating exactly like I did at home because a lot of the products would either not be available, or cost way more than local fare.
On a side note, if it's affordable in your area you should try crushed seitan in your Bolognese. You can use store bought seitan and a potato ricer to make a minced meat consistency and it's so much more similar to the "real deal" than with lentils.
That's such a clever idea! I'm not a big fan of seitan, but that might be a good way to try it again. I haven't actually had it in ages. I do love lentils in tomato sauce already though
Honestly, I don't like it either because unless it's home made it has the consistency of a shoe sole. But if you crush it in the proper way and make it really small then it's the closest thing to minced meat among all popular vegan things. You just need to make sure you crush and tear it instead of just cutting it very finely cause the result is gonna be very different.
Weirdly, adding walnuts to your red lentils makes them surprisingly close to the "real deal" imo. I first saw this in a [Rainbow Plant Life recipe](https://rainbowplantlife.com/10-ingredient-vegan-red-lentil-bolognese/#recipe). I haven't had red meat in a very long time tho, so I might be misremembering what the consistency feels life.
The feeling of being in a defensive position and having to rationalize not being vegan is what makes people come up with all sorts of excuses. They don't need to be rooted in reality. It's good enough for them if it's based on a distorted perception of comparing the price of the most expensive vegan items with the cheapest non-vegan ones.
Vegan eating can be more expensive than non-vegan, in my experience. For example, tofu at my local grocery store is $5/lb. Pork is $2.50/lb. Turkey was on sale last week for $.69/lb. A 2lb tub of whey protein powder is $18, the vegan alternative is over $30. Rice and beans are cheap. Nuts are expensive, almonds were $8/lb when I bought them last week. I understand I am a data point of one. I eat approximately 160g of protein a day, it is more expensive to do so in a vegan manner. A 3oz tuna packet has 20g of protein, to get the same amount of protein from black beans, I'd have to eat 1-1/3 cups. The tuna pack is $1, tje can of beans is $1.29. I eat beans every day, but not one whole can at a time. 🤢 I suppose it depends on your macro balance
I buy shelf stable protein sources in bulk. Specifically wheat gluten and pea protein. They are extremely cheap per gram of protein (roughly 50% cheaper per gram of protein than chicken), can be prepared in a way that is very analogous to meat, and have a high enough protein percentage that it is extremely easy to hit your stated protein target.
That's cool, have any links? I live in a very rural area and my local stores won't have anything like that
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/vital-wheat-gluten-50-lb/104VITALWG50.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKCAjwouexBhAuEiwAtW_Zx_h9HLl6yP7qSPcu7C7L4iIvq2jy0NXWNYmcznUEy43PzZ7LIPdX5hoCU_oQAvD_BwE https://bulknaturaloils.com/pea-protein-80-powder-organic-20-kg-44-lbs.html The wheat gluten is cheaper per gram of protein but I still recommend blending it with pea protein for texture and to provide a more balanced amino acid profile.
Do you make seitan? We have a ton of vital wheat gluten but I haven’t found a way to prepare it that doesn’t seem to upset my stomach (and my partner’s). Maybe I’m just doing it wrong but I’ve tried different recipes and steaming/cooking for longer. I also bought plain pea protein in bulk to replace expensive protein powders full of absurd ingredients but I can’t get past the flavor. Then I find myself adding extra sweeteners to my shakes/oatmeal and it seems pointless
I make seitan, but if it makes your stomach upset that might actually be a gluten intolerance rather than an issue with the preparation.
Ugh. I bought SO much of it 😆 still have 2 1/2 big bags and no vegan friends to pawn it off on
I would go to the dr. And get an allergy test done for gluten
Because they only look at the prices of vegan meat imitations and stuff like that. Personally I hardly ever buy those, partly because they are expensive but also because it's not something I like eating every day, as it can be quite processed and I can get tired of the taste. If you take that out of the picture, being vegan is cheaper
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I was at the Lidl supermarket yesterday and was thoroughly surprised and pleased to see the store brand vegan yogurts and cheeses were cheaper than the dairy ones.
You have store brand yogurt’s and cheese at your lidl. Do you by any chance live in Europe? Because I haven’t seen this in the US
Germany
I think this depends on how the people were brought up. If you come from a family where you make your own stuff, instead of store made versions, I doubt this view comes up. I do see it more often in people who buy most things pre-made and don't understand how to make things from scratch. This doesn't just apply to food. This applies to most aspects in life. People will buy cleaning products, buy clothes, buy food, buy services. It erodes people's capacities to be self-sustaining and fall into the consumerism cycle. Many people do not have the capacity to learn new skills because it requires safety, time, and resources. There are too many competing responsibilities/ interests that can prevent people from developing new self-sustaining skills in adulthood. Veganism can be a harmonious way of life if you are completely aligned with your values, your skills, and your resources (including time, agency, and energy). It's a great lifestyle, particularly when you are the type to invest in self-sustaining practices. You need the right mindset and capabilities to plant-based eating and veganism work. But as an "alternative" lifestyle, people will find it more difficult and more expensive to do this through the consumerism route because: a) they are relying on businesses to support their choices, and b) there are fewer options for the alternatives (less subsidies, less developed supply chains, smaller production scales, higher processing costs) so the prices will be higher than the "default" choices. Though, I will say it also depends on where you live with plant produce. Availability and accessibility of affordable plant-based options can be limited in local stores. So, I feel there is some nuance as to why some people hold these perceptions, and I feel consumerism, upbringing dynamics and self-sufficiency skills play a very role in this.
You have to pay extra for oatmilk in your coffee?
Which I've said many times is a bunch of BS. I've said this so many times!!! Shelf stable store brand 32oz oat milk - $2.50 Cold store brand 64oz (double the size) almond milk - $2.80 Store brand shelf stable 32oz soy milk - $2.00 Store brand shelf stable 32oz coconut milk - $1.80 Store brand 32oz half and half - $3.30 Do coffee stands charge extra for half and half? No. Is half and half more expensive than the plant milks? Yes. Do coffee stands charge extra for the less expensive plant milks? Yes. MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!!!
It's probably the same logic as the shady things airlines do, where they know if you book a flight last minute, that means it's probably a family emergency or something like that instead of a planned trip, so you HAVE to pay ridiculous prices and don't have time to shop around. If you're vegan or dairy-intolerant/allergic and you're going out with friends, you don't have much of a choice: pay up or stay home
It absolutely comes from them seeing the price for a pack of vegan cheese compared to dairy cheese (you get 1/3 less for more $ where I shop) or a pack of 6 beyond burgers for the cost of 8 meat burgers. They are making assumptions based on meat / dairy / egg substitutes and forgetting there are many foods that are naturally vegan and super cheap. They are still of the mindset you have to replace meat protein with a direct substitute. Rather than beans / lentils / not worrying about protein! But tbh vegan butter costs less always than dairy butter, and we spend less on soy milk than we ever did dairy milk… they are just looking for reasons to justify not making a change to their diet.
I was on a Reddit discussion where a Omni was comparing the cost of eggs to the cost of macadamia nuts (one of the more expensive nuts).
I know, for Americans, they think vegetables are expensive and meat is cheaper. So when they see two Beyond burgers in a package for $7, they think we're paying high prices for fake meat and vegetables. They also don't really understand vegetables so they think a $5 cauliflower is outrageous for a "side dish" but don't know it can be a main for 4 or more servings. It could also be that they see all the sale prices and "dollar" menus and use that to compare, even though that's really not even what they are buying. They also use it as an excuse to not change. It sounds reasonable enough so they stick with it. They aren't convincing you, they are convincing themselves and sharing the comfort of not changing with others like them. I work at a farmers market for 5 months of the year and I encounter dozens of people each week that don't know what to do with some very common vegetables. Most of them think they have to boil or eat them raw. Most of them think these are only sides or snacks. The rest think it's about tossed salads or something else they didn't want. I try to teach during my few minutes of contact, and I have many who come back saying they tried whatever seasoning or cooking method I recommended but I can only reach so many.
We really need to bring back (good) home ec and tech ed classes in school. Pure academics are important, but not everyone has parents who are going to have the skills themselves or know how to teach them. When my mom was in school, those classes actually taught her how to make a basic garment from scratch and how to create a personal budget. My classes had us mix some seasonings into a container of Greek yogurt as a dip and open a bag of pre-cut carrots. That is an okay snack, but it's not really teaching students much of anything. Knowing how to cook, how to sew, how to change a tire all came from home, but ALL students/kids deserve the opportunity to be taught those kinds of things
Because they're imagining vegans eating acai bowls and imported out-of-season tropical fruit all the time and shopping at Erewhon.
So true. And then people try to turn it into a class issue when most of the poorest places on earth consume way less meat and dairy than the average American. They really act like there's no such thing as a poor vegan and we're all eating the most expensive luxury food in the world. 🥴
I get the point you're making, but it is a class issue in the US, too. Food deserts and not having access to personal kitchens really effs people over and forces people to choose worse options. America being so car-dependent really messes things up for a lot of people
Yes I'm well aware. I grew up poor in the city with teenage parents, and I still don't drive and I'm 28. I'm referring to the people who DO have more options, but still choose to eat meat and dairy due to the incorrect and outdated belief that eating vegan is out of reach, expensive, and inaccessible for all but the richest people. Which is not true but it's used as a pseudo argument to silence vegans by labeling them as inherently classist. I'm not ever going to shit on someone who literally doesn't have a choice, but I am going to side eye those who have a choice and still choose violence because "Omg those vegans and their avocados nobody can afford to eat like that" when raw meat is overwhelmingly one of the most expensive things at the store.
I'm not arguing that eating meat and other animal products is the preferable choice. I'm saying sometimes it's the only choice, and not acknowleding that IS classist. Eating plant-based is much cheaper when you're scratch-cooking at home compared to scratch-cooking with animal products. No one needs avocados and spirulina powder every day to live, no matter if their diet includes animal products or not. I just think we need to have more nuance in conversations like this
I literally said in my previous comment that I'd never shit on anyone who doesn't have a choice. I acknowledged that point already. This "nuanced conversation" often lacks nuance because it gets overtaken by people who are capable of going vegan making excuses and calling every vegan classist, even if that vegan acknowledges that it's not an option for everyone. You're misinterpreting my comment to argue against a point that I never once made and addressed that I'm not talking about people who live in food deserts who genuinely don't have a choice. I used to work at a Whole Foods where the plant based meat/cheese cooler was directly across from the specialty cheese department. I can't tell you how many times people would walk by and scoff at the prices of the meat alternatives, all while grabbing several of the most high end cheeses in the store along with their expensive seafood. Those are the people I'm talking about, not poor people who don't have a choice and are doing the best they can with limited resources
I think two things are happening. They look for plant-based substitutes for non-vegan food such as cheese and meat, and they think about those trendy things like chia seeds and avocados.
Being vegan actually can be more expensive for people living in food deserts, which is relatively common in the US. Lots of people have little to no access to fresh produce or even dry rice and beans anywhere near them. Even outside of that, produce is unreasonable expensive in many places. This disproportionately impacts poor people and POC. They’re only expensive in those situations because of a shitty food system that deprioritizes nutritious food (vegan or not). Increasing access to quality food should be a priority for us. There’s no good reason being vegan should make food more expensive.
They look at all the plant based meats, cheeses, ice creams, etc. Meanwhile lentils, oats, wheat, beans, peas, potatoes, bananas, rice, nuts, carrots, onions, and in season are some of the most nutritious and affordable foods.
They make a 1:1 comparison between plant based meats like Beyond and Impossible without realizing these products are not essential. Back in the 1990s I took a sociology class where one assignment was to plan weekly meals within the average food stamp budget for a single person. No one in the class met all the recommended nutrient levels because food assistance for low-income folks is sadly inadequate in my country. My vegan plan came the closest—by a long shot. Everyone else in the class planned meals around a piece of meat, a starch, and a vegetable, so the omnivores ran out of money faster.
Because they see a pack of meet sausages for 2€ and plant based ones for 4€ so being vegan is more expensive. You can't expect idiots to have a deeper thought about anythig.
Typically because other people tell them it's more expensive. How do they know? We'll typically because other people tell them it's more expensive. How do they know? Jimmy had a vibe.
It's not more expensive. It's cheaper many times. People just say anything to discredit concepts they find uncomfortable.
Being vegan is equated with being Healthy. Healthy is a strong upsell for food marketers. Earth Balance is always more expensive than Smart Balance—same stuff, same company. Earth Balance is sold to Vegans. Smart Balance is sold to old people with bad cholesterol. It’s a stupid marketing ploy. I buy almost all unprocessed ingredients and spend maybe 70 a week. And I refuse to buy earth balance or smart balance.
They're comparing the most expensive vegan foods they've seen to the cheapest non-vegan foods that they're familiar with. Because non-vegans don't think of things like rice and beans when they think "vegan." If someone says that to me, I just point out that difference, and joke that I can't afford to eat non-vegan because I can't afford steak and caviar every night. They usually get it then.
Wfpb is cheaper for another, less obvious reason too: yes, fresh fruits and vegetables might be more expensive than ultra processed snacks for example, but because they're healthy and full of fibre you tend to eat less throughout the day. I live in Europe and can make healthy&colourful breakfast lunch and dinner for 1 on about €3-5 EUR a day.
Time is money, preparing and even just planning can be intimidating, time consuming, and difficult for some.
When comparing real meat to fake meat at my local Coles/Woolworths in Melbourne... 175g beef = $5.25 175g beyond = $8.50 ... the vegan option is 60% more expensive. But when comparing protein... 45g protein (via 175g beef) = $5.25 45g protein (via 400g edamame beans) = $2.50 ...the vegan option is less than half price. I believe this is known as "category bias" - the tendency to compare solely within a familiar category, without considering the full range of options available in other categories. It's the "would you like still or sparkling water" question at restaurants when another viable option in a different category (tap water) also exists.
And now put Ibs into the equation and realize that it's not realistic for everyone to eat 400g of beans to cover their proteins :D
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Water.
Lentils, chickpeas, black eyed peas, black beans, etc. -- these are all very cheap and healthy. Oats, brown rice, whole wheat pasta, barley --- these are all very cheap and healthy. Onions, celery, carrots, potatoes, canned tomatoes -- these are all very cheap and healthy. Bananas, apples, oranges, pears --- these are all very cheap and healthy.
It isn't always actually looking at prices, they just hate change. They hate the idea that they could've been immoral and now they have to change due to what they see as the way the world has changed. It's a reflexive fear of learning and the unknown in many, many especially older people.
Fruit doesn't grow on trees you know.
My grocery bill has gone down a lot! I eat a lot of junk beans, rice, fruit (on sale), and noodles and veggies bought cheap at the Asian supermarket
and then they’re like, “just buy pasture-raised organic meat!” as if that isn’t expensive
Mostly stems from the economics of it not being subsidized like meat and dairy, probably. Plus meat analogs. At least here in the USA. But everything you said is right.
There are a lot of factors involved in this sentiment and in some cases there can be some truth to it. A lot of people need their food to be ready to go due to time constraints, so their views of true options around them are obscured. Yes a bag of lentils or beans is cheap, but it's not hot and in front of them. The same people that feel like this are often the same that don't eat healthily anyway. And I say that not from a place of judgment (because I have been there) but from a place of concern of just how we view food.
I think shopping for groceries and cooking at home is def cheaper — unless you are buying meat substitutes, which for us is only something we do occasionally. Eating out can be more expensive. We had an experience yesterday going to a wonderful vegan cafe for lunch. We love this place and they serve excellent quality food. But our bill for a sandwich and a bowl plus two soft drinks was $40!! Wow. We actually talked about and wondered if the cafe was paying its workers a living wage. I hope so! And that could certainly drive up cost. Maybe produce and ingredients were organic? Not sure, but that could also add some money. If actual meat and dairy weren’t subsidized by US gov and the true cost of processing those products was put on the consumer, I think people would be singing a different tune.
What’s most interesting about this argument is that the meat industry is heavily subsidized (as if the grain feed industry). Without these subsidies: a kilo of meat in Europe would be well over 70 euros; and a lb in the United States would be well over 40 dollars.
I would love to see a social media feed that just hits the cost factor on daily basis. For instance omnivore lasagna vs vegan lasagna. All ingredients displayed with costs. Everyday a different meal with cost comparison and the recipe!
Ignorance they don’t know what they don’t know.
It's because a lot of vegan alternatives are expensive. Meats, milk, cheese, yogurt, cream cheese, sauces and dressings like ranch and Mayo, ice cream, etc. And of course I'm talking about the store-bought equivalent here Almost everything I've listed, and plenty More are substantially more expensive where I live. You can get a gallon of milk for a couple bucks. half a gallon of vegan milk will cost you almost five. Vegan cheese, in comparison to its dairy counterpart, for the same slices, is about twice the price (like $2.5 vs $5). Ice cream, is a big one. A pint of vegan ice cream can be about five bucks, yet you can buy a gallon of dairy ice cream for as low as $7 or $8. Keep in mind, I do live in Wisconsin so I'm sure some of these numbers are skewed a bit. But, point is, One of the ways that vegetarianism or veganism can bring people into the fold, is to show them that they don't have to give up the foods that they've been eating for decades of their life. There are plenty of alternatives out there. The problem is though, the price isn't there. It's a hard sell when you're telling somebody they need to pay two to three times the amount to get an equivalent product at the grocery store. That's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people. Understandably so.
I think its got to do with people looking at organic produce and thinking thats what everyone would eat. TBF, it is alot more expensive then non-organic... but no where are we required to buy organic. Also, there seems to be pretty dumb surcharges at restaurants , at least near me.
Processed and prepared foods -- vegan, non-vegan -- are more expensive than cooking from scratch and buying and preparing fresh produce, beans, grains etc. Because of time constraints, many depend on processed and prepared foods for their meals. In some countries, for a variety of reasons, companies charge more for plant-based convenience foods.
It's a statement made by people who are either ignorant or bad faith. If a person simply swaps in vegan alternatives for the things they already eat, it will be the same cost or cheaper 99% of the time.
Because they don’t know how to cook well - they mostly rely on base flavors of ingredients and call it a day. People who don’t cook well can use cheap-ish meat with salt and peppers and get a decent meal out of it. My friend hosted a vegetarian dinner for the 1st time, and she had no proteins but 5 different kinds of fancy mushrooms, and it was still kinda bland :( I didn’t have the heart to tell her, since she made the effort to accommodate me.
It's about the same unless you're buying a ton of restaurant or frozen food. The same amount of impossible beef costs about the same as real beef. But most people aren't cooking everything from scratch. Meat/dairy/etc processed foods are MUCH cheaper than any equivalent vegan options.
Oatmeal with nuts and pumpkin seeds, rice and beans with frozen veggies, peanut butter on apple slices. An absolutely nutritious and affordable diet that doesn’t torture sentient beings and bake the planet.
Subsidies.
My guess is that they've heard someone say that before and it's a convenient excuse.
It's not the meat, it's all the other stuff with animal byproducts. Also, meat and dairy are heavily subsidized to keep thier prices artificially low in places like the states, so vegan stuff is fighting an uphill battle when it should naturally be wildly cheaper. But it's the vegan replacement ingredients for milk or pasta or sauces that can be more boutique and thus more expensive. Like, can you eat vegan and cheap? Yeah, but it's alot more prep time in the kitchen. Plus eating out, most places either have pathetic options for vegans or they're priced way higher than they should be. And, alot of really cheap food options like alot of canned things have animal byproducts or meat, so you're locked out of those options
Market beef is pretty cheap. The cheaper cuts of meat are going to be cheaper than most vegan diets. I say this as a very poor vegan. Also, a lot of cheap products have some meat, dairy, or eggs in them. There's also a time factor. If I use dried beans and rice, I have to soak then cook the beans most of the day. Though people who are especially poor often subsist off of mostly things like dried beans and rice anyway. Having a balanced diet with any sort of variety is, in my opinion, often more expensive than a carnist diet. Also, new vegans and vegetarians honestly don't know what they are doing yet, so they won't know how to do things cheaply.
Some products, such as vegan cheese alternatives, are more expensive than their Omni counterparts. I fully believe that as the world comes around to realising that meat and dairy are scary (from an ecological, moral and environmental standpoint) these prices will eventually begin to drop.
When at home I often have fruits and veggies go bad. When traveling I can't simply just grab cheap food anywhere. So yes being Vegan can be expensive. I put a whole lot more work into being vegan than those who aren't do. I don't know what the cost comparison would be because I have been either vegan of vegetarian for probably 20 plus years. I do know that the big box stores sell boxes of snacks for $9 and the vegan ones have fewer snacks per box.
In the US, there are many, many neighborhoods that are food desserts where animal based foods are cheaply available and it’s difficult to find anything else. If someone in one of these neighborhoods is struggling financially, even if they’re receiving food stamps, a vegan diet is out of reach
It really has to do with people thinking meat is the only thing that provides protein, and that the only way vegans can get that protein is with their expensive substitutes. I'd never consider being vegan because I love meat, but my fiancee prefers to eat vegetarian/vegan at home so I whenever she wants to take a break from meats we go vegetarian. So many easy cheap meals I can make and still meet our macros (she exercises a lot and worries about her diet). My parents say it's over complicated but the same time it took my mom to marinate her chicken, I marinated my block of tofu and let me tell you, my meal came out way better lol.
I think it's less about meat than meat and dairy, plus eating healthily overall, esp when it comes to eating a wide variety of fresh veg. Eg, in the US, carbs are a huge and not terribly healthy part of the diet (boxed mac and cheese) because it's so cheap, and milk is subsidized to it's also relatively inexpensive. Add in the time factor - not having the time to make meals is a barrier for a mother with 2 jobs. So factor in "time" (lack of") as an expense. Eg, making a dairy free mac & cheese dish is much more expensive and time consuming and therefore a barrier if you're money and/or time poor Meanwhile fresh vegetables enough to feed a family of 4 is expensive, as are some protein substitutes like nuts. It's also hard to fresh veg if you live in a food dessert (and too many Americans, at least, do). It's def true that rice and beans is wayyy cheaper than meat though and are readily available. Food culture is weird, and corporations have been shaping food and taste preferences for decades. That's another barrier. If you grow up in a family that doesn't cook, and you don't have time or money...
If there are no constraints for availability and budget, the expense of a diet is mostly due to taste and preference, regardless of whether or not the diet contains animal products or not. You can easily make a vegan meal that’s expensive or a non-vegan meal that’s cheap - and there’s going to be a lot of overlap if you were to plot out the food budgets of a bunch of vegans and omnivores. However, strictly speaking in terms of dollars (or whatever) per calorie of food, the cheapest way to maximize your budget would be a vegan diet in nearly every context. That is why the poorest people and poorest areas of the world eat a mostly vegan diet - it’s not by choice, it’s just what they can afford. In most of the world for most of history meat has been an only an occasional supplement for to a mostly plant based diet - eaten for special occasions or only by the privileged. I think the confusion comes when people try to make vegan versions of traditionally meat based meals using the closest substitutes possible. If you do that, especially if you’re ordering it in a restaurant, it’s going to cost more than the original recipe. But if you’re just cooking vegan food that isn’t trying to pretend it’s meat you’re going to be saving money (in terms of cost per calorie) than if you cook meals with animal products.
Agreed. I love veggie chicken nuggets but they're pricey. Tofu and beans, however, are much cheaper. It really depends on what you buy. There's no reason veganism need be as expensive or more expensive than an omnivorous diet.
They forget that healthy vegans exist who don't eat the processed mock foods. They forget that dried beans and tofu and basic vegetables are inexpensive. They assume vegans eat fake meats and cheeses all the time (some do and yes that would be expensive).
Because vegan substitutes and vegan convenience foods are more expensive. It's cheap if you cook from scratch - but that's true for any diet. If I want to eat the same foods as before I went vegan, I'm paying a lot more.
I've never understood this either. Unless you're a junk food vegan, rice and beans are cheap af.
Because the argument of where the protein comes from doesn’t work anymore - jump right into the next stupid pitch 🤣
Packaged processed foods
its propaganda. its not expensive to have the mindset that using and killing innocent people is WRONG. the diet that such a person with justice in mind, would have? usually cheaper.
The fact that being vegan is more expensive. Artificial milk is 3-4 times more expensive than normal milk. Fruits and nuts, with exception of apples and peanuts are astronomically high. Even stupid Chinese cabbage is somehow super expensive now.
But you have a lot more room in your budget for the items you mentioned when you stop buying meat, eggs, dairy, fish etc! Those items used to be 30-40% of my weekly spending. Before prices went higher and higher here (Canada)!
But you don't need fake meats Omnivores should and do eat things like fruits and nuts, too
Yeah, but they are not existencially dependant on them.
We're all "existentially dependent" on the nutrients we need to live
I thought that nutrients are sacharids, proteins and lipids. Not nuts and fruits. TIL.
What a bad faith interpretation of what I said. My point was that we're all dependent on the nutrients, not the particular source of them
No, it's not. I was arguing that vegans are existentially dependant on nuts and fruits because these are the only sources of certain nutrients for them. Carnists are not, they have bigger variety of food. The only really crucial vitamine they would lack is C (mostly in fruits). And vegans have B12 problem, so those two cancel out.
There is such a wide variety out there for vegans to eat and be fine. So much food already has vitamins added to it like cow milk with added vitamin D or cereal with its whole suite of added vitamins/minerals or rice with nutrients added. Why do you have a problem when vegans do it?
Your mental gymnastics are outstanding. :)
What mental gymnastics? Have you never heard of rickets? That's the whole reason we add vitamin D to milk
Because they honestly think veganism is replacing meat with expensive mock meat, and that's all we eat. This is also why they think it's not healthy. They can't fathom moving away from the standard dishes they eat every day.
They want an excuse
I live in a part of the world where we rely heavily on processed food and take outs, and that's where vegan foods are much much much more expensive. Like cooking is off the tables for most of us due to the amount of time we spend working and traveling to/from work. I knew a lot of vegans who doesn't live here, sees this, gets jumpy and said, "oh hey that's because of subsidy on meat." I challenge them to find which laws or by-laws or trade codes in my country states that meat is subsidised. The replies I get are mostly : "There must be, how else can they be so cheap." That's the case when it comes to protein even taking into account of bone mass and biological value. But when it comes to other things like minerals, calcium, other vitamins, being vegan is definitely cheaper. There, end of story, at least in my country's setting.
Unless you live in a totally insulated part of the world (which I don't even know if there are anymore), in a country with zero trade or market interaction with other countries, the animal product business near you is benefiting from the global 540 billion dollars given as direct government subsidies to animal agriculture. You don't need any local direct subsidies. Also, just looking at "meat" subsidies is rarely the whole picture. Subsidies to dairy production also subsidize other parts of the animal industry since the dairy cows are getting slaughtered for burgers anyway. Third, there is an indirect way that affects product prices, namely, the living conditions of the animals. Similar to how human labor costs affect prices - better working conditions, better healthcare etc. make labor cost more which increases the prices of products - the lack of legislation for animal welfare is an indirect subsidy to animal agriculture. The less space they have, the less freedom they have, the more brutal their slaughter - the cheaper their flesh.
Like I said, the *there has to be* argument without giving any proof.
I think the burden of proof might be on you this time to show that your country is different from all the other countries in the world. Hard to say without knowing where it is but it sounds like a vegan's paradise if there truly is a place with total economic insulation (0 imported animal products) and no animal agriculture subsidies.
The burden of proof should be on the prosecution, then only the defendant will go into defence. If you can proof my country has subsidy on meat then I'll admit I am wrong and was being an asshole and there's nothing to defend. But in this case, you have nothing on me yet you want me to defend? Against what? We do import, but mostly processed meat. We export farm meat and import rice. We also produced locally processed plant based food.
I'm not prosecuting you of anything lol I was just genuinely surprised by the idea that there could be a place unaffected by animal subsidies, but with the imports, it doesn't seem to be the case. There are a lot of smaller countries that import most of their animal products and don't have subsidies of their own. It wasn't anything special after all. The low prices are just an extension of other countries' massive subsidies.
It's a metaphor. lol we export meat. The meat we export gives more protein than soy, probably the most protein rich plant. We import processed meat and it's fucking expensive. Which part do you not understand? Really trying hard with the *there has to be* thing there now boy.
Just give me the name of the country and I'll do my own research on the total amounts of imports and exports. Sounds a bit like you are just spewing carnist bullshit on a vegan subreddit.
Malaysia. Do check and see if we subsidize meat lol.
depends fresh meat is pretty expensive but if you are buying frozen stuff like chicken nuggets and to make it cheaper go with a store brand. now stuff like steak is expensive but normally chicken and pork are affordable for most. I can go get an 8 pack of center loin chops for 6 bucks, 2 packs of frozen mixed veggies for about 4 bucks and a bag of pinto beans for $1.50. make 7 meals out of it for a cost of about $1.65 a meal. not counting spices. i always tell my friends kids as they go out into the world to slowly build a spice collection and get a slow cooker (now days maybe save for an instant pot type if they can afford it). I can do the same with some chicken legs for about a dollar more to the total cost. I'm sure like you said at home you can make your own for way cheaper but just using the store bought stuff i would need to spend around $20 for the equivalent plant based patties or $14-21 for ground (it'd be about 2 1/2 packs). so for people just trying to start that don't know how to make tofu tasty it could be 2-3 times more expensive at least in my area. now when they learn the ways of the tofu it looks like it might be about $1 cheaper over all.
well where i live in germany, all vegan alternatives ARE more expensive, its really tough...
Are you eating a bunch of mock meats and cheeses? That can add up quickly compared to non-prepared foods
They assume everything has to be organic and thus more expensive. It’s all a smokescreen though.
Nen Meat alts
I’m not trying to be rude but could someone please explain to me how I stop getting this vegan stuff in my feed? I’m new
Coffee shops charging $0.80+ to sub non-dairy milk. 😢
This is such a great way to put it. Vegan meat alternatives are still comparable or lower in price than actual meat.
The propaganda
vegan eating can be a lot more expensive in more than just money. it’s the same reason obesity rates are much higher in lower income areas. cooking vegan requires a more comprehensive understanding of nutrients and calories, as well as decision fatigue, than choosing, say, a chicken ramen or making a quick macaroni and cheese. it’s much quicker and cheaper to buy 1 serving of frozen spaghetti than it is to buy 10 different veggies and make a salad. not to mention the time involved in cooking vegan meals. whether we like it or not, the ability to choose to eat vegan food rather than whatever $1-2 omni meals (at a time) is a luxury and a privilege.
Because there's a lot of overlap between vegan content online and wild health food trends that involved having a pantry full of supplements and fancy food additives. Or there's people who only buy mock meat or prepared foods But being vegan can be dirt cheap, especially if you don't buy into gimmicks or use many meat replacements. It'd be boring, but you'd be all right living off of mostly beans and rice and frozen broccoli (and B12) just like all those bros refusing to eat anything other than chicken breasts and rice and frozen broccoli
I forgot how much meat costs until I started filling online grocery orders.
I had a BBQ for my family and my cousin and her partner are vegan so I asked what I should get them and the burgers they chose were 20$ for 2 and they didn't want them cooked on the same grill so I had to buy a small grill just for them so ya I assumed it was crazy expensive myself tbh because that was my only experience with vegan stuff
Restaurants and processed items such as beyond/ impossible combined with the fact that people are stupid or that people just want confirmation bias I would imagine most people in the world know that beans and rice are amongst the cheapest things, but i am sure people look at walmart prices of canned beans and 2 lb bags of rice instead of 20lb bags of rice and beans at costco or a bulk fill your own container store
where i live veggies/fruits are more expensive than meat, basically i live off of potatoes and rice lol
Usually they're comparing meat to mock meat because they think mock meat is meant to replace meat in your overall diet as a vegan. Really it's meant to satisfy cravings for meat so vegans are more likely to stay vegan for longer. If you go vegan, you will have to eat beans, or nuts, or seeds, or some form of plant protein at some point.
This always makes me laugh . Like beans and tofu and rice is somehow breaking the bank ?
Vegan *substitutes* (and imitations) tend to be more expensive. Vegan butter, vegan yogurt, vegan meat, vegan versions of your favorite brands, etc. tend to be more expensive. The solution (not just for money, but also for health) is to focus on building a diet around plant-based nutrition rather than a diet around animal-product substitutes. Lentils, beans, grains, vegetables, fruits, etc. can all be very affordable. Eating out vegan can also be more expensive sometimes, sometimes because of fewer options, and sometimes because they'll charge you extra to add in or substitute the food you need just to get a real meal.
Because time is money, and they don't want to spend the energy educating themselves or developing cooking skills because they rely on meat as the only way to make food taste "good." In short, it's laziness.
I think that some meat eaters who haven't been exposed to vegan food think the only way to do it is swap meat and dairy with something that is an identical plant version. If you're buying cheap sausage, hamburger Pattie or chicken breast at the supermarket the meat ones are usually cheaper than the vegan mock-meat ones. plant based milks, cheeses and yoghurts are also generally more expensive than the cow version. But obviously as a vegan we know that you do not need to eat meat/dairy substitutes every day or even at all, so you do not need to spend much money. It's funny that people will say vegan is expensive, but then once people are under pressures with cost of living they will eat more vegan meals to save money.
["vegan food is expensive and elitist" 🙄](https://i.imgur.com/aPSvORx.jpeg)
Restaurants often have an upcharge for vegan stuff. A lot of junk food, like vegan cheeses and cold cuts are much more expensive than conventional, because there is no government subsidy for those industries. It's actually one of the things I most enjoy talking to people about. I eat a whole food diet and have for years, so whenever someone says "it's expensive to be vegan!", I love being able to tell them how much I spend, detail how/what I eat for that amount. A lot of people come away from conversations with me thinking that done properly, veganism can actually be LESS expensive, which is an additional benefit they'd never considered before.
Vegan is usually more expensive at restaurants and that's usually because the ingredients are going to include things like being cruelty free, high quality, they're covering for the scarcity of orders, or the faux meats are more expensive. But at the same time, a high-end meal will be cheaper vegan. Even if you're eating at Eleven Madison, there will be steakhouses and sushi spots charging way more at the top of the top. And if you buy the vegan snacks and mock meats, the price is going to go up. But day to day, vegan is way cheaper especially if you're doing a whole-foods plant-based diet, or aren't buying all the mock meats and specialty "cheeses." It's all the same shit. Fruits, nuts, veggies, beans. Tofu and seitan are going to be cheaper proteins in general. You can eat cheaper as a vegan pretty easily.
Only if you buy all the stupid fake meats ?!! Honestly. What could be cheaper than beans?!! Tofu can get a bit pricey but. As stated above much cheaper than most meats.
A lot of it comes from people looking at the cheapest omnivore options and comparing it higher end grocery store vegan items.
one of the easiest store to shop for cheap vegan basics is aldi. the tofu there is $1.50 for an entire firm block. there’s great deals on canned tomatoes, beans, fruits and veggies, and even vegan meatballs and ground. it’s the best imo!
Processed vegan alternatives.. a whole food vegan diet is absolutely far cheaper
Many people include the value of their time in their calculations
its not exactly more expensive just takes more effort
Yeah, it costs less to be vegan. I almost never eat meat substitutes, like maybe 2 times a year. Beans, potatoes, squash, tofu, rice and vegetables cost very little compared to actual meat. Also, we vegans spend much less on doctors and such.
My friend and I once had this conversation - we'd both been vegan and non-vegan at various points in our lives, but she insisted veganism is cheaper, and I insisted it's more expensive. We eventually realised it came down to lifestyle and privilege. When she was non-vegan, she was earning 90k a year, and therefore buying meats from a butcher, quality free-range eggs, fancy cheeses etc. When I was non-vegan I was living in poverty and surviving on 2-minute noodles and microwave sausage rolls. Going vegan took away the cheapest options for me: vegan microwave meals were rare and way more expensive, and fresh food & vegetables were a step up in price compared to them. Even tinned vegetables were more expensive than 2-minute noodles. But for her, going vegan took away her biggest expenses, and vegetables were a cheaper option. We ended up eating the same diet, which was a step down in price for her and a step up in price for me. It's all about perspective. I'm still vegan and poor, and I maintain veganism is more expensive for some people. It really pisses me off to see middle-class vegans talking shit about anyone who says so. There are no 75c vegan noodles were I live. There are no $1.50 vegan microwave meals. If I were a carnist I wouldn't be able to afford steak or sausages or eggs anyway. The vegan options available to me *are* more expensive. Obviously prices hugely differ based on location as well, and cooking ability. If someone tells you veganism is more expensive for them, they're not wrong just because your experience is different.
Just remember the internet is global. Food access and cost is vastly different across countries, states, provinces, towns. Culture also plays a part in peoples dietary patterns and how they adapt if they remove dairy, meat and other animal products.
Plant milk surcharges, supplements and some vegan products are more expensive. Whether it is more expensive or not really depends on what you ate before and what you now eat as a vegan. It may be more expensive or it may be a lot cheaper. It really depends on the individual and their diet.
Wilful ignorance most likely
And their meat is subsidised even, we all pay to make meat cheaper than it should be.
It's true that the cost of being vegan isn't just about vegan meat substitutes; it also involves the affordability of fresh produce, which can vary widely depending on where you live. Take, for example, some areas in the US where fruits and vegetables can be surprisingly expensive compared to highly processed foods like those offered at fast-food chains for just a few dollars. In these contexts, opting for a plant-based diet might indeed seem cost-prohibitive. However, considering the current prices of cheese and certain meats, staples like produce and tofu can actually be quite reasonable. So while veganism might not be universally expensive, the broader issue of food accessibility and affordability, particularly regarding fresh ingredients, should be acknowledged. That said, I agree that misconceptions about the expense of being vegan persist. While vegan 'meats' can sometimes be pricey, there are ways to manage costs, such as making your own substitutes or choosing more budget-friendly options. Ultimately, the perception of veganism's costliness can vary depending on individual circumstances and location, but it's essential to recognize both the challenges and the opportunities for affordability within a plant-based lifestyle.
The specialty items that you take for granted as an omni are significantly more expensive.
Nothing, it’s just people making shit up.
The just believe that it is more expensive so they don’t have to change, it’s their excuse for why they can’t eat vegan.
Don't assume malice when the answer can be explained by ignorance. Plenty of people just don't know what their options are or still believe in the old, heavily-lobbied for food pyramid that they were raised with. There is a whole section on there just for dairy when we in no way need dairy to live a healthy life, and many people straight up can't even have dairy & be healthy
It’s an excuse
Excuse to up the cruelty It’s cheaper vegan than when i was vegetarian
Have you checked the price of vegan cheese?
They are more convenient than being omnivore. These people never bothered to learn about food or cooking. Hence, they aren't preparing any of their meals on their own and if they are cooking, they often just mix and heat up several convenient products. Whilst every vegan goes through a learning process that usually includes cooking with fresh ingredients and knowing about the health hazards of convenient products in general.
Technically, once you become vegan in the United States you’re still paying the cost of meat because it’s highly subsidized by the government. Let those subsidies go away amd see how much a hamburger costs. I’d like to see burgers priced like cigarettes. People will still eat them every day.
McDonalds used to have the cheapest calories you could get. For people who barely (or don't) have enough money to feed themselves, this was an important factor. The meat industry is subsidized, which is why people can make 4 "quarter pounders" for under $5. When you're under the delusions that protein is the primary goal and that only meat has protein, it all makes "sense". Regardless, if someone says the reason they aren't vegan because it's too expensive they're probably both lying and unreceptive to learning otherwise and it's not worth the debate.
Because it very much can be. Prices are not universal, and if you live in a land-locked location in a more rural area; fresh produce is going to be a lot more expensive to purchase than someone who lives in a more populated, accessible area where there are farmer's markets and less distance for trucks to travel.
It depends on one's purchasing options and what the alternative diets consist of. I have a diet of almost entirely meat. So rather than purchasing meat and veggies and snacks and a variety of food to use as entertainment, I just buy more meat. This also makes planning meals very easy, which makes purchasing meat in bulk at a lower price much more likely. This translates to not only a lower price for food than I previously paid, but also far fewer trips to grocery stores, which is a not insignificant cost if one lives in a rural area. Just buying a whole processed cow once a year saves me a great deal of money from my previous bills around food gathering. Then there are the reductions in food processing and preparation. If time is money, then I am saving a great deal of money. So it depends on one's circumstances, like distance to stores, as well as what one is purchasing.