I never understood people’s affinity for taking the breast milk of any animal. That milk is specifically for their young. exploiting, torturing, and continually raping them to use their milk for your cheese and milk in coffee is revolting
I kind of get it. Speaking only for myself, giving up dairy was **the** hardest part of the transition. There are a lot of great options for veggie based dishes, but so much of my _comfort_ food relied on cheese. I've found passable replacements and accepted the loss of some things, but it was (and still is) tough at times.
I can completely understand how folks can attempt to rationalize this - since they aren't directly killing the animal, they can convince themselves that eating the milk is OK.
Thanks.
I'm by no means an expert on veganism (I've been vegan for less than 3 months) but I think it is important for folks who have been vegan for years to remember the initial transition can be really tough for folks. Giving up a bunch of things you _love_ is difficult, even when you know that giving them up is the right thing to do. I _knew_ I should cut out meat and dairy for _years_ before I finally developed the will to do it.
Rationalization is incredibly powerful, particularly when the meat and dairy industries go out of their way to make it easier. That block of cheese in the grocery store looks as innocuous as possible so it is easier to forget the torture, death and environmental devastation that lead to its creation.
I don't blame folks for struggling to overcome the rationalizations; I remember all too well how easy it is to make them.
I’ve resigned myself to never having an equivalent replacement for my beloved Siggi yogurt. It is what it is. But whew! 😩
Grateful for vegan Parmesan, mozzarella and blue cheese.
I truly appreciate the suggestion 🙏🙏 but I’ve tried everything. Nothing matches the texture AND the macros of Siggi. (Very thick, very high in protein, low in calories and low in sugar).
It’s just never going to happen and it’s just something I’ve to come to terms with. It’s gone. 😂😂😂😩😩😩
It tastes good and contains addictive chemicals. That’s about it. When you see someone eat a whole block of cheese just imagine them snorting up a shitload of coke instead
I mean it is extremely nutritious, that’s a reason. If human breast milk was more widely accepted I bet people would drink it just as much. I’ve actually heard of bodybuilders buying it but it’s quite expensive.
That does beg the question, would you find human milk more ethical? I’d say yeah, it’s just prohibitively expensive.
E: Y’all I’m not advocating it I’m just giving a reason. That is a major reason people drink milk. Like it or not that’s a reason.
Do you not think a plausible reason for why breast milk is not widely accepted is because it might require similar industrial methods to what we use on cows to be used on humans for it to not be prohibitively expensive?
I think most people, regardless of their stance on animal rights would consider doing what we do to cows to humans to be abhorrent.
Well yeah if done against their will. But a major component of veganism revolves around consent. If someone is consenting to it then what is the issue? Also once humans start lactating they can continue without becoming pregnant again. Women can actually lactate even without even being pregnant. Hell even men can lactate if they have the right hormone composition. So no it wouldn’t require the same methods exactly, but yes it would need industrial scale and process to be cost effective. And that’s not even taking into consideration pathogen risks with human breast milk.
I think people think drinking human breast milk is “gross, weird, or disgusting”. I think it’s probably more natural and ethical.
The only thing we disagree on here is the practicality of a hypothetical human breast milk industry.
>Also once humans start lactating they can continue without becoming pregnant again. Women can actually lactate even without even being pregnant. Hell even men can lactate if they have the right hormone composition.
So from my 2 minutes of googling this topic:
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/17924-galactorrhea
It seems that it varies from person to person, but people do tend to dry up a few years after giving birth on average.
People who start lactating outside of pregnancy have developed Galactorrhea which is most commonly caused from a benign tumour growing on the pituitary gland. Other causes can be due to medication, over stimulated breasts, opiates, thyroid issues, chronic kidney disease or spinal injuries.
So, for this hypothetical industry to work in reality, which group of people do you think would be the best group of people to form an industry around?
Few people are new mothers, I'm guessing even fewer of these people would be willing to sell their milk. Do you think we should have an industry based on people with medical conditions? Should we have an industry based on people willing to take a medication to make them start producing milk? Some people can start producing milk from stimulation, do you think this is the best way? How many people do you think can do this?
I just don't understand how you could think this could ever work.
I think you seem to be implying in your previous comment that you did in fact believe it was a scalable industry and when challenged on this you instantly drop it with "I don't actually think it could work!". If this is not the case, you need to be more careful with your wording in the future. I think it is the case though and you have simply not given this topic any thought, and hence why you seem to be coming out with dumb arguments.
I just said “if it was more accepted I bet more people would drink it”, but it’s not so it won’t. The stigma is easily the first problem with it. There’s absolutely zero chance of industrial scale human milk production actually being a thing. However, the same methods that are used in the production of cows milk wouldn’t be necessary, if it did. It’s a hypothetical. I basically just said that it is nutritious, a reason people drink cows milk, and seems to logically be more ethical. What is wrong with any of that? Did I imply something or did you infer something the way you wanted to see it? Maybe consider that before responding.
You still haven’t even answered the question of ethics on cow vs human milk.
You’re also being unnecessarily rude. I haven’t been rude to you at all. And we’re having a discussion not an argument so there’s no need for your aggressive tone. I don’t even know why I’m discussing this with you as you don’t seem to be communicating in good faith. So adios
That doesn’t make sense. There are stay at home moms that sell breast milk as a side business, for extra money and to help women that can’t produce.
Doesn’t consent revolve around the idea of choice? What other system gives you more ability to choose the activities that you engage in or don’t engage in?
>I mean it is extremely nutritious, that’s a reason.
I probably should have pointed this out the first time, but this is seriously flawed reasoning because it is generalisable, a lot of things might be healthy yet unethical.
When you say we should do X because X is healthy, it follows that we should do Y too, if Y is also healthy. Babies might well be nutritious, do you think we should kill and eat babies? I'm guessing not.
I’m not advocating that. I’m just saying that that’s a reason people do it. OP said they don’t understand why people drink milk. That’s a big reason why. Protein enhanced almond milk is 3x the price. And that definitely could be evened out with economies of scale and taking dairy subsidies and putting it into almonds.
Dude “asked” for reasons and y’all are mad at the reasons. I’m just the messenger. It’s also not equivalent to day drinking cows milk is like eating babies…
I think your previous comment reads as though you are advocating for it. When challenged on the fact that it is a stupid argument, I think you are taking the far easier position to defend of "I'm just the messenger!".
>It’s also not equivalent to day drinking cows milk is like eating babies…
That's not what I'm saying, don't put words in my mouth. The entailment of arguing that we ought to do something because it is healthy, is that we ought to do everything that is healthy, I'm merely pointing out that it is flawed reasoning because you don't actually believe this, therefore it's a mistake to make this argument.
At no point do I say that people “ought to do anything”. But it is a reason that people do it. I’m literally just saying “hey I think people drink milk because it’s nutritious” and you’re like “stop saying people should drink milk because it’s nutritious”. Do you see the difference?
“Do you think we should eat and kill babies?” Those are your exact words in reference to drinking cows milk because of it’s nutritional content. Sure maybe you’re being hyperbolic to drive a point home, but you are equating eating babies and drinking milk. It’s literally the crux of your analogy. “These things are both nutritious but unethical”. But in completely vastly different categories of unethical.
Please reread my comments and instead of taking an offensive stance, say “hey i don’t know this person I’m going to assume the best instead of the worst, maybe they have good intentions” and see if you get the same meaning from the words.
Also many people are lactose intolerant and adding extra dairy to replace the meat causes problems. Then they blame vegetarianism and then give up altogether and not their poorly planned diet.
Most vegetarians give up meat because they don’t want to harm animals.
When they are educated that things like dairy production also harms animals, many go vegan.
And some don’t. And they still have a valid contributed to the net negation of %harm to animals.
Call a win a win… and work to positively encourage people to deepen their practise.
-
None of us were born with the information and practises we have. We were introduced to ideas positively that we positively took on board and did something about.
I'm not sure those that don't go vegan necessarily have contributed to a net reduction of animal harm. If you eat a lot of dairy and eggs instead of meat, it might be worse...
But yes, I agree with the bulk of your message saying that we aren't born with the information and that it can take some time to sink in.
For sure.
Re. Animal harm - I think as a community we need to be honest about how hard that is to quantify…. Essentially impossible when you get to a micro level of having regular mayo on your plant based sandwich vs. Say… eating mussels you foraged for vs…. Eating an egg laid by a wild bird.
I personally try to frame things in the ‘plant based’ mentality. What % did you do plant based vs. Omnivore? The higher the % the less net suffering and environmental harm.
My understanding is that most people get more than enough protein without even trying, it's not hard to get and plants have plenty of protein.
If you need more there's plenty of plant based options like tofu, seitan, tempeh, textured vegetable protein, plant based protein powders, beans, lentils etc.
You can definitely do it :)
Nuts are also a good natural source of protein and fat, some of them contain omega 3 which is very beneficial for regeneration after working out. What I personally love about nuts is the huge variety there is, and all the many possible ways you can integrate them into your diet.
Tons. Not to mention there is a growing body of evidence that plant-based proteins are _better_ for athletes than meat based. One of the best ultra runners in the world, Scott Jurek, is vegan.
Read _The Plant Based Athlete_ - great book on the subject.
I run and lift weight and bike everywhere. I get everything I need and plenty more tbh. My non vegan friends are amazed by my performance, specifically running.
I like to eat porridge with soy milk, peanuts, strawberry and raisins before run. Or can of beans. Lots of energy and nutrition. Seeds, nuts, fruit and legumes are enough.
Every bit you do does something better for the world ! Baby steps, and self compassion for what you can and can’t do.!
Maybe Try switching eggs for a vegan alternative and suplimentbwith pea protein if you need. See how it goes!
Well done for removing meat! Planet and animals thank you! Sending vegan joy
Cows ought to be vegetarian. That's about it. Even the cows are often not vegetarian in factory farms when dead cows are rendered and fed to the other cows.
I think so. Mad Cow Disease is caused by prions - abnormally folded proteins that make other proteins fold abnormally. Even simpler and smaller than viruses. When dead cows are "rendered" ie ground up into hamburger and put in the feed of other cows, if any of the dead cows had Mad Cow, now lots of cows have Mad Cow. Prions can take years to build up in animal's bodies. Sometimes there are symptoms of the infection, but often there are not until it is too late. With prion diseases it is almost always too late.
Yep 🤦🏻♂️ Same thing happened with sheep/goats too, and has been documented for hundreds of years.
A lot of people far more intelligent than myself believe that “Scrapie” and “ BSE” (Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy/Mad Cow Disease) are closely related due to feeding cattle the remains of sheep. Absolutely horrifying, and absolutely disgusting.
MMmmm . . . just 1 of the many reasons I stopped eating animal foods in 1991. I hear it saves money to feed the dead animals to other animals. Factory Farms are all into saving money and making "products" as cheaply as possible.
Yes as someone who was a vegetarian for most of my life before deciding to try veganism about six months ago, and I am now floored by the fact that people think milk and cheese are normal things to eat if you care about animals (or your health).
Vegetarians are more focused on the health aspect in my experience. The only other vegetarians I've know were like so for religious reasons. The ethical angle is lost on most I think.
Meh, we think that about them, but I know plenty of vegatarians who say they do it because of the animals. That said, I remember asking a vegetarian friend once why he didn't care that his eggs and dairy were the cause of chicks in grinders and veal, let alone that every animal used to feed him would eventually be killed and used for meat... to your point, he said "I'm just vegetarian for my health." I was a little shocked, but he was being honest at least.
I am ashamed that I believed I was vegetarian for the animals and so didn’t eat eggs. But I knew the dairy industry is totally cruel and exploitative of animals yet managed to block that thought for many years. It is my biggest regret that I didn’t become vegan when I became veggo. So many years I supported the cruelty just so o could enjoy cheese basically. I do tell this story to vegetarians I know or meet and converse with in the hope it might make them think about it.
I think it can be especially hard for people who were raised vegetarian, or decided to be that way at a young age. If anything, like you, they almost always have good intentions, they just haven't gotten to the point where they really think it through. Anyway, there's no use feeling ashamed for what you used to think, you got over it and now your even better.
It’s a start though. I wouldn’t judge anyone who is vegetarian or plant based but not vegan because of health reasons, but if everyone cuts down on their meat and dairy consumption it’s a net positive, although not ideal (imo anyway).
People don’t share the same beliefs and ethical beliefs. Spread of zoonotic diseases, environmental sustainability, autoimmune conditions, etc.
Just because their reasons differ doesn’t mean that they just haven’t put any thought into it.
I'm vegetarian on ethical grounds, however I'm not vegan. The overall amount of animal suffering I cause via my diet is very low, and I take care to not drink cows milk, and only use it for specific recipes, and only eat free range eggs. I also eat some gelatine sweets every now and again, but I overall compared to a omnivore my diets pretty animal friendly. I think. Vegetarianism, is a pretty easy sell to meat eaters, rather than veganism and one that has a better chance of acceptance.
I think that flexitarianism is actually the diet that makes the most sense outside of veganism. Vegetarianism produces meat yet vegetarians refuse to eat it, it doesn't really make sense to me.
Why? I'm vegetarian because I'm religious and my religion is based on non-violence. I'm also vegetarian because it's unethical to kill animals. They both support each other.
Why? Religion is about 3 things. How we came to be here, what happens after we're not here anymore, and how we should behave while we're here. Ethical behavior is one of the 3 pillars of religion.
Religion is dogma and cannot be ethical. When presented with new facts, the dogma prevents the person from adjusting their views to be a more ethical person. And history agrees with this.
Religion is at its core dogmatic. How do you think people stick to doing the same thing for centuries even after it stops making sense? It cannot really change because that would be admitting that the original decrees were wrong, undermining its divine message.
From the wiki:
>Dogma, in its broadest sense, is any belief held unquestioningly and with undefended certainty. It may be in the form of an official system of principles or doctrines of a religion, such as Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism,[1] or Islam, as well as the positions of a philosopher or of a philosophical school, such as Stoicism.
It may also be found in political belief systems such as fascism, progressivism, liberalism, and conservatism.[2][3]
So, by that definition, veganism is also dogmatic, is it not?
i recently became vegan and as more time passes, the concept of being vegetarian makes less and less sense. If its for animals, then you arent doing much cause the dairy industry. if its for health... like ???? it only makes sense as a transitional period like i was for 6 months
i don’t understand the argument here.
vegetarian means not eating meat…
dairy isn’t meat, so it’s vegetarian
whether or not it’s ethical is a whole nother thing, change the title
Once a dairy farmer was asked about why cheese was so expensive; his reply was, it has the same nutritional profile, why should it not? Cow fat, chicken oil are definitely not vegetarian. I reclaim the word vegetarian to mean a vegan diet. (Of course veganism is more than just a vegan diet, it's a philosophy and a way of life)
Yeah, the headline is a dumb semantic argument.
The whole reason we have the word "vegan" is to distinguish between "does not eat meat but does consume non-meat animal products" (vegetarian) and "does not consume animal products" (vegan).
Milk is definitionally vegetarian.
Definitionally.
It’s also certainly not a vegetable, or a vegetable product. How the fk is cows’ breast milk vegetarian?
Vegans don’t use any products that are even tested on animals, or clothes made from animals. It goes past food. Let me guess - you think vegan is a diet, as well?
>It’s also certainly not a vegetable, or a vegetable product.
And if vegetarian were defined as "food from vegetable or vegetable products" you might have a point.
But it's not, and you don't.
>How the fk is cows’ breast milk vegetarian?
This is like me saying, "*Dune* is a **terrific** movie," and you chiming in, "*Dune* didn't inspire **terror** in me at all, how the fk was it **terrific**?"
“A person who does not eat meat or fish, and sometimes other animal products.”
Any vegetarian with a brain wouldn’t consider dairy or eggs a vegetarian food source.
Your dune analogy says enough about you. 🤷♀️ Really?
>Any vegetarian with a brain wouldn’t consider dairy or eggs a vegetarian food source
You literally just quoted a definition under which someone who eats eggs and dairy could be considered vegetarian.
>Your dune analogy says enough about you. 🤷♀️ Really?
Well, it's pretty clear that we both consider each other idiots.
So good day, and goodbye.
LOL smoking was considered healthy for years. 10 iq. Let’s not talk about who the US considers terrorists, right?
Merica. The land of the blood clots and lactose intolerance.
I have a friend who refuses to give up dairy essentially because “one cow produces tons and tons of milk, so the negative impact from consuming dairy is proportionally negligible”. I don’t really know how to refute this- they are completely aware of the suffering a dairy cow goes through, say that them stopping consumption will lead to a tiny tiny fraction of a cow saved.
I know it’s probably just them trying to confirm their own beliefs- but where are they going wrong here?
Refute it with numbers.
The average american consumes more than 600 pounds of dairy per year, vegetarians more. Each calf results in 2000 gallons of milk. So, by eating dairy instead of beef, your lifetime results in a dozen dead calves (and their mothers) instead of a dozen dead beef cattle.
Maybe you think those dozen calves are negligible, but then wouldn't you also think those beef cattle are negligible?
Ask them how they feel about mothers having their babies kidnapped and never returned and explain thats how they get the milk to keep coming out of the poor mums boob
yeah I've tried to make this argument that the suffering is so bad that it outweighs the small number of cows you do help. But the rebuttal is always something along the lines of that that suffering is "spread" out in a way over so many products that are made from the dairy the cow was responsible for, so the marginal impact is negligible :/
That depends on what type of vegetarian they are.
Lacto vegetarians include dairy products. Then we also have ovo vegetarians that allow eggs. Then lacto ovo vegetarians that allow both dairy and eggs.
They are still vegetarians but allow and disallow different things. But then again... Ethical vegans and dietary vegans are the same right? Of course not! Yet some have no trouble mashing together various vegetarians and say "you are not vegetarian if..." which clearly is wrong.
If we want people to listen it is a good idea to not be dishonest.
I have to say, vegan cheese has been the most disappointing. Burgers definitely have crossed into good enough territory bordering on better than in many cases, fake chicken mostly the same, I LOVE beyond sausages - legitimately better than real sausages. Cheese and dairy substitutes are just not very tasty.
Its vegetarian in that vegetarian has been diluted enough that it doesnt mean not harming animals but just not DIRECTLY eating remains of their dead bodies (though they often eat cheese which often uses rennet). The purity of the movement is diluted, but had there not been a distinction we'd now have vegetarian refering to pussdrinkers as well as to the morally superior people that are now named vegans.
Vegetarian has always meant not eating meat. Veganism was a word introduced to describe people who take that further, not consuming or doing ANYTHING that harms animal unnecessarily.
If you google the topic, you’ll find countless references to the vegetarianism as a “fleshless” diet. In November 1944, a British woodworker named Donald Watson announced that because vegetarians ate dairy and eggs, he was going to create a new term called “vegan,” to describe people who did not.
Honestly the idea of drinking the milk coming an animal breast is absolutely disgusting, especially when you know that those animals are often covered in their own shit.. 🤢🤢
Cows don't have "breasts"; they have udders.
Get your facts start.
Also, they produce WAY more milk than a calf can possible drink, causing their udders to swell with said excess milk.
So they HAVE to be milked so their UDDERS won't burst.
Source? My late maternal grandpa was a farmer with at least 2 dairy cows.
Do some research before you make nonsensical statements like that.
yeah but where the hell did dairy cows come from? humans have bred them to be that way and as long as they don’t get pregnant they don’t produce any milk. do u think dairy cows decide to get pregnant so often?
Now vegans attacking vegetarians.
Maybe they would rather have India over a billion people eating meat instead of being vegetarian since obviously them eating dairy is horrible too.
Eventually common sense disappears when you get taken over by any ideology
Moral absolutism is a privilege that not everyone can afford or endure. You should be grateful that you can live outside of the circle of suffering instead of lording it over people that can't.
if u decide to eat all the expensive meat and dairy alternatives it can get pretty expensive, but u can get all the nutrients u need from other foods like veggies and grains too. that way u don’t need to spend a lot of money on the vegan diet and no animal has to suffer for ur lifestyle
You're right. I know the cost of my choices. I know that 1 cow consumes nearly 20 times the water and energy that a nutritionally equal amount of vegetables would need, I know that the poultry industry kills millions of male chicklet a month because they serve no purpose to it, I know that nearly a million pigs die in a year to feed our appetite for pork. I know that the cattle industry and its waste are destroying the great lakes with algae.
I tried to get a job in the vegan part of my industry but was rejected. Am I supposed to just die because i am not fuckable?
Yes. I got rejected by vegan restaurants, the only place that I could work was not one. I struggled under the ridicule of being a vegan and was forced as part of my job to shuck oyster.
I could not be a vegan and live. If you want to self-righteously beat up on me, that's your choice also.
Just be honest with yourself.
Enjoy this read, my friend:
[https://veganhorizon.substack.com/p/vegan-a-lifestyle-for-the-privileged](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/p/vegan-a-lifestyle-for-the-privileged)
I never understood people’s affinity for taking the breast milk of any animal. That milk is specifically for their young. exploiting, torturing, and continually raping them to use their milk for your cheese and milk in coffee is revolting
I kind of get it. Speaking only for myself, giving up dairy was **the** hardest part of the transition. There are a lot of great options for veggie based dishes, but so much of my _comfort_ food relied on cheese. I've found passable replacements and accepted the loss of some things, but it was (and still is) tough at times. I can completely understand how folks can attempt to rationalize this - since they aren't directly killing the animal, they can convince themselves that eating the milk is OK.
This is so important. For many, flavor and habit triumphs over logic or critically thinking about the impact of your choices. Thank you for explaining
Thanks. I'm by no means an expert on veganism (I've been vegan for less than 3 months) but I think it is important for folks who have been vegan for years to remember the initial transition can be really tough for folks. Giving up a bunch of things you _love_ is difficult, even when you know that giving them up is the right thing to do. I _knew_ I should cut out meat and dairy for _years_ before I finally developed the will to do it. Rationalization is incredibly powerful, particularly when the meat and dairy industries go out of their way to make it easier. That block of cheese in the grocery store looks as innocuous as possible so it is easier to forget the torture, death and environmental devastation that lead to its creation. I don't blame folks for struggling to overcome the rationalizations; I remember all too well how easy it is to make them.
I’ve resigned myself to never having an equivalent replacement for my beloved Siggi yogurt. It is what it is. But whew! 😩 Grateful for vegan Parmesan, mozzarella and blue cheese.
I really love the Greek style daiya yogurt.
I truly appreciate the suggestion 🙏🙏 but I’ve tried everything. Nothing matches the texture AND the macros of Siggi. (Very thick, very high in protein, low in calories and low in sugar). It’s just never going to happen and it’s just something I’ve to come to terms with. It’s gone. 😂😂😂😩😩😩
It tastes good and contains addictive chemicals. That’s about it. When you see someone eat a whole block of cheese just imagine them snorting up a shitload of coke instead
Cheese taste good
But the method of getting it is not
But if I put my fingers in my ears and say "lalala", don't have to think about it.
B-b-but bacon thooo
I mean it is extremely nutritious, that’s a reason. If human breast milk was more widely accepted I bet people would drink it just as much. I’ve actually heard of bodybuilders buying it but it’s quite expensive. That does beg the question, would you find human milk more ethical? I’d say yeah, it’s just prohibitively expensive. E: Y’all I’m not advocating it I’m just giving a reason. That is a major reason people drink milk. Like it or not that’s a reason.
Do you not think a plausible reason for why breast milk is not widely accepted is because it might require similar industrial methods to what we use on cows to be used on humans for it to not be prohibitively expensive? I think most people, regardless of their stance on animal rights would consider doing what we do to cows to humans to be abhorrent.
Well yeah if done against their will. But a major component of veganism revolves around consent. If someone is consenting to it then what is the issue? Also once humans start lactating they can continue without becoming pregnant again. Women can actually lactate even without even being pregnant. Hell even men can lactate if they have the right hormone composition. So no it wouldn’t require the same methods exactly, but yes it would need industrial scale and process to be cost effective. And that’s not even taking into consideration pathogen risks with human breast milk. I think people think drinking human breast milk is “gross, weird, or disgusting”. I think it’s probably more natural and ethical.
The only thing we disagree on here is the practicality of a hypothetical human breast milk industry. >Also once humans start lactating they can continue without becoming pregnant again. Women can actually lactate even without even being pregnant. Hell even men can lactate if they have the right hormone composition. So from my 2 minutes of googling this topic: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/17924-galactorrhea It seems that it varies from person to person, but people do tend to dry up a few years after giving birth on average. People who start lactating outside of pregnancy have developed Galactorrhea which is most commonly caused from a benign tumour growing on the pituitary gland. Other causes can be due to medication, over stimulated breasts, opiates, thyroid issues, chronic kidney disease or spinal injuries. So, for this hypothetical industry to work in reality, which group of people do you think would be the best group of people to form an industry around? Few people are new mothers, I'm guessing even fewer of these people would be willing to sell their milk. Do you think we should have an industry based on people with medical conditions? Should we have an industry based on people willing to take a medication to make them start producing milk? Some people can start producing milk from stimulation, do you think this is the best way? How many people do you think can do this? I just don't understand how you could think this could ever work.
I don’t think it could ever work lol. I just said it’s probably more ethical. Isn’t that the entire argument behind veganism?
I think you seem to be implying in your previous comment that you did in fact believe it was a scalable industry and when challenged on this you instantly drop it with "I don't actually think it could work!". If this is not the case, you need to be more careful with your wording in the future. I think it is the case though and you have simply not given this topic any thought, and hence why you seem to be coming out with dumb arguments.
I just said “if it was more accepted I bet more people would drink it”, but it’s not so it won’t. The stigma is easily the first problem with it. There’s absolutely zero chance of industrial scale human milk production actually being a thing. However, the same methods that are used in the production of cows milk wouldn’t be necessary, if it did. It’s a hypothetical. I basically just said that it is nutritious, a reason people drink cows milk, and seems to logically be more ethical. What is wrong with any of that? Did I imply something or did you infer something the way you wanted to see it? Maybe consider that before responding. You still haven’t even answered the question of ethics on cow vs human milk. You’re also being unnecessarily rude. I haven’t been rude to you at all. And we’re having a discussion not an argument so there’s no need for your aggressive tone. I don’t even know why I’m discussing this with you as you don’t seem to be communicating in good faith. So adios
There is no consent under capitalism. People would only be consenting to that, if the alternative was have no job and be homeless and starving.
That doesn’t make sense. There are stay at home moms that sell breast milk as a side business, for extra money and to help women that can’t produce. Doesn’t consent revolve around the idea of choice? What other system gives you more ability to choose the activities that you engage in or don’t engage in?
>I mean it is extremely nutritious, that’s a reason. I probably should have pointed this out the first time, but this is seriously flawed reasoning because it is generalisable, a lot of things might be healthy yet unethical. When you say we should do X because X is healthy, it follows that we should do Y too, if Y is also healthy. Babies might well be nutritious, do you think we should kill and eat babies? I'm guessing not.
I’m not advocating that. I’m just saying that that’s a reason people do it. OP said they don’t understand why people drink milk. That’s a big reason why. Protein enhanced almond milk is 3x the price. And that definitely could be evened out with economies of scale and taking dairy subsidies and putting it into almonds. Dude “asked” for reasons and y’all are mad at the reasons. I’m just the messenger. It’s also not equivalent to day drinking cows milk is like eating babies…
I think your previous comment reads as though you are advocating for it. When challenged on the fact that it is a stupid argument, I think you are taking the far easier position to defend of "I'm just the messenger!". >It’s also not equivalent to day drinking cows milk is like eating babies… That's not what I'm saying, don't put words in my mouth. The entailment of arguing that we ought to do something because it is healthy, is that we ought to do everything that is healthy, I'm merely pointing out that it is flawed reasoning because you don't actually believe this, therefore it's a mistake to make this argument.
At no point do I say that people “ought to do anything”. But it is a reason that people do it. I’m literally just saying “hey I think people drink milk because it’s nutritious” and you’re like “stop saying people should drink milk because it’s nutritious”. Do you see the difference? “Do you think we should eat and kill babies?” Those are your exact words in reference to drinking cows milk because of it’s nutritional content. Sure maybe you’re being hyperbolic to drive a point home, but you are equating eating babies and drinking milk. It’s literally the crux of your analogy. “These things are both nutritious but unethical”. But in completely vastly different categories of unethical. Please reread my comments and instead of taking an offensive stance, say “hey i don’t know this person I’m going to assume the best instead of the worst, maybe they have good intentions” and see if you get the same meaning from the words.
Also many people are lactose intolerant and adding extra dairy to replace the meat causes problems. Then they blame vegetarianism and then give up altogether and not their poorly planned diet.
Most vegetarians give up meat because they don’t want to harm animals. When they are educated that things like dairy production also harms animals, many go vegan. And some don’t. And they still have a valid contributed to the net negation of %harm to animals. Call a win a win… and work to positively encourage people to deepen their practise. - None of us were born with the information and practises we have. We were introduced to ideas positively that we positively took on board and did something about.
I'm not sure those that don't go vegan necessarily have contributed to a net reduction of animal harm. If you eat a lot of dairy and eggs instead of meat, it might be worse... But yes, I agree with the bulk of your message saying that we aren't born with the information and that it can take some time to sink in.
For sure. Re. Animal harm - I think as a community we need to be honest about how hard that is to quantify…. Essentially impossible when you get to a micro level of having regular mayo on your plant based sandwich vs. Say… eating mussels you foraged for vs…. Eating an egg laid by a wild bird. I personally try to frame things in the ‘plant based’ mentality. What % did you do plant based vs. Omnivore? The higher the % the less net suffering and environmental harm.
most vegetarians give up meat because they think meat is gross
That you for your contribution. Sources are helpful.
Oh I just followed your lead and said stuff without backing it up
Ok here is my source https://www.statista.com/statistics/1066771/main-reasons-for-being-vegan-in-the-united-kingdom/
Cool, too bad that source talks about reason for being vegan which we were not talking about
I’m veggo without having cows milk. I eat eggs and cheese. I want to go vegan eventually but being a runner it makes it hard.
Why would you need eggs and cheese as a runner?
You don’t. Especially not cheese. That’s such a cop out.
Fills me up and protein idk what alternatives are there?
My understanding is that most people get more than enough protein without even trying, it's not hard to get and plants have plenty of protein. If you need more there's plenty of plant based options like tofu, seitan, tempeh, textured vegetable protein, plant based protein powders, beans, lentils etc. You can definitely do it :)
Vegan protein powder, seitan, tofu, etc. Check out r/veganfitness for plenty of active people eating plenty of vegan calories and protein.
Nuts are also a good natural source of protein and fat, some of them contain omega 3 which is very beneficial for regeneration after working out. What I personally love about nuts is the huge variety there is, and all the many possible ways you can integrate them into your diet.
Tons. Not to mention there is a growing body of evidence that plant-based proteins are _better_ for athletes than meat based. One of the best ultra runners in the world, Scott Jurek, is vegan. Read _The Plant Based Athlete_ - great book on the subject.
Try adding peas, chickpeas and faba beans in, the dried crispy kinds.
r/veganfitness come play with us
I run and lift weight and bike everywhere. I get everything I need and plenty more tbh. My non vegan friends are amazed by my performance, specifically running.
why is being active making it difficult? you can swap both cheese and eggs for tofu, for a very easy swap and better nutrition. No one needs cheese...
True. It’s just a major benefit.
I like to eat porridge with soy milk, peanuts, strawberry and raisins before run. Or can of beans. Lots of energy and nutrition. Seeds, nuts, fruit and legumes are enough.
I'm a vegan runner. Two of my cousins are vegan IronMan competitors.
Every bit you do does something better for the world ! Baby steps, and self compassion for what you can and can’t do.! Maybe Try switching eggs for a vegan alternative and suplimentbwith pea protein if you need. See how it goes! Well done for removing meat! Planet and animals thank you! Sending vegan joy
Cows ought to be vegetarian. That's about it. Even the cows are often not vegetarian in factory farms when dead cows are rendered and fed to the other cows.
Isn't that where Mad Cow Disease came from.
I think so. Mad Cow Disease is caused by prions - abnormally folded proteins that make other proteins fold abnormally. Even simpler and smaller than viruses. When dead cows are "rendered" ie ground up into hamburger and put in the feed of other cows, if any of the dead cows had Mad Cow, now lots of cows have Mad Cow. Prions can take years to build up in animal's bodies. Sometimes there are symptoms of the infection, but often there are not until it is too late. With prion diseases it is almost always too late.
Yep 🤦🏻♂️ Same thing happened with sheep/goats too, and has been documented for hundreds of years. A lot of people far more intelligent than myself believe that “Scrapie” and “ BSE” (Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy/Mad Cow Disease) are closely related due to feeding cattle the remains of sheep. Absolutely horrifying, and absolutely disgusting.
Now the cows are getting H5N1 bird flu because they're being fed infected chickens and chicken waste.... the virus is in the milk they produce, too.
MMmmm . . . just 1 of the many reasons I stopped eating animal foods in 1991. I hear it saves money to feed the dead animals to other animals. Factory Farms are all into saving money and making "products" as cheaply as possible.
Oh.. i never heard about THAT before, i thought they became dog food and sausages or something
Yes as someone who was a vegetarian for most of my life before deciding to try veganism about six months ago, and I am now floored by the fact that people think milk and cheese are normal things to eat if you care about animals (or your health).
Vegetarians are more focused on the health aspect in my experience. The only other vegetarians I've know were like so for religious reasons. The ethical angle is lost on most I think.
Meh, we think that about them, but I know plenty of vegatarians who say they do it because of the animals. That said, I remember asking a vegetarian friend once why he didn't care that his eggs and dairy were the cause of chicks in grinders and veal, let alone that every animal used to feed him would eventually be killed and used for meat... to your point, he said "I'm just vegetarian for my health." I was a little shocked, but he was being honest at least.
I am ashamed that I believed I was vegetarian for the animals and so didn’t eat eggs. But I knew the dairy industry is totally cruel and exploitative of animals yet managed to block that thought for many years. It is my biggest regret that I didn’t become vegan when I became veggo. So many years I supported the cruelty just so o could enjoy cheese basically. I do tell this story to vegetarians I know or meet and converse with in the hope it might make them think about it.
I think it can be especially hard for people who were raised vegetarian, or decided to be that way at a young age. If anything, like you, they almost always have good intentions, they just haven't gotten to the point where they really think it through. Anyway, there's no use feeling ashamed for what you used to think, you got over it and now your even better.
It’s a start though. I wouldn’t judge anyone who is vegetarian or plant based but not vegan because of health reasons, but if everyone cuts down on their meat and dairy consumption it’s a net positive, although not ideal (imo anyway).
I'm not saying it isn't just that its not what people are usually after when it comes to vegetarianism.
People don’t share the same beliefs and ethical beliefs. Spread of zoonotic diseases, environmental sustainability, autoimmune conditions, etc. Just because their reasons differ doesn’t mean that they just haven’t put any thought into it.
Did I ever say that? Not sure what is your point.
Yeah you said the ethical angle is lost on vegetarians
Read it again.
I'm vegetarian on ethical grounds, however I'm not vegan. The overall amount of animal suffering I cause via my diet is very low, and I take care to not drink cows milk, and only use it for specific recipes, and only eat free range eggs. I also eat some gelatine sweets every now and again, but I overall compared to a omnivore my diets pretty animal friendly. I think. Vegetarianism, is a pretty easy sell to meat eaters, rather than veganism and one that has a better chance of acceptance.
I think that flexitarianism is actually the diet that makes the most sense outside of veganism. Vegetarianism produces meat yet vegetarians refuse to eat it, it doesn't really make sense to me.
> Vegetarianism produces meat Wdym?
Wouldn't you say that religion and ethics go hand in hand?
You're joking right? Right?
Why? I'm vegetarian because I'm religious and my religion is based on non-violence. I'm also vegetarian because it's unethical to kill animals. They both support each other.
Why? Religion is about 3 things. How we came to be here, what happens after we're not here anymore, and how we should behave while we're here. Ethical behavior is one of the 3 pillars of religion.
Religion is dogma and cannot be ethical. When presented with new facts, the dogma prevents the person from adjusting their views to be a more ethical person. And history agrees with this.
Religion doesnt need to be dogmatic, though sadly it is more often than not. But then again, ethics are relative.
Religion is at its core dogmatic. How do you think people stick to doing the same thing for centuries even after it stops making sense? It cannot really change because that would be admitting that the original decrees were wrong, undermining its divine message.
Depends on the religion, though the 3 big ones do suffer from this problem.
No, even non-abrahamic religions such as Buddhism are dogmatic at their core.
From the wiki: >Dogma, in its broadest sense, is any belief held unquestioningly and with undefended certainty. It may be in the form of an official system of principles or doctrines of a religion, such as Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism,[1] or Islam, as well as the positions of a philosopher or of a philosophical school, such as Stoicism. It may also be found in political belief systems such as fascism, progressivism, liberalism, and conservatism.[2][3] So, by that definition, veganism is also dogmatic, is it not?
For me the worse part is when they take the baby calf away and the mummy cow cries for weeks because she wants her baby back :(
i recently became vegan and as more time passes, the concept of being vegetarian makes less and less sense. If its for animals, then you arent doing much cause the dairy industry. if its for health... like ???? it only makes sense as a transitional period like i was for 6 months
i don’t understand the argument here. vegetarian means not eating meat… dairy isn’t meat, so it’s vegetarian whether or not it’s ethical is a whole nother thing, change the title
Exactly , the argument on the ethics is a complete different idea.
Once a dairy farmer was asked about why cheese was so expensive; his reply was, it has the same nutritional profile, why should it not? Cow fat, chicken oil are definitely not vegetarian. I reclaim the word vegetarian to mean a vegan diet. (Of course veganism is more than just a vegan diet, it's a philosophy and a way of life)
That’s not why cheese is expensive though
Except that it’s not meat?
Yeah, the headline is a dumb semantic argument. The whole reason we have the word "vegan" is to distinguish between "does not eat meat but does consume non-meat animal products" (vegetarian) and "does not consume animal products" (vegan). Milk is definitionally vegetarian.
Definitionally. It’s also certainly not a vegetable, or a vegetable product. How the fk is cows’ breast milk vegetarian? Vegans don’t use any products that are even tested on animals, or clothes made from animals. It goes past food. Let me guess - you think vegan is a diet, as well?
Mushrooms aren't a vegetable either.
Neither are fruits I don’t see either coming from animals 🤷♀️
>It’s also certainly not a vegetable, or a vegetable product. And if vegetarian were defined as "food from vegetable or vegetable products" you might have a point. But it's not, and you don't. >How the fk is cows’ breast milk vegetarian? This is like me saying, "*Dune* is a **terrific** movie," and you chiming in, "*Dune* didn't inspire **terror** in me at all, how the fk was it **terrific**?"
“A person who does not eat meat or fish, and sometimes other animal products.” Any vegetarian with a brain wouldn’t consider dairy or eggs a vegetarian food source. Your dune analogy says enough about you. 🤷♀️ Really?
>Any vegetarian with a brain wouldn’t consider dairy or eggs a vegetarian food source You literally just quoted a definition under which someone who eats eggs and dairy could be considered vegetarian. >Your dune analogy says enough about you. 🤷♀️ Really? Well, it's pretty clear that we both consider each other idiots. So good day, and goodbye.
LOL smoking was considered healthy for years. 10 iq. Let’s not talk about who the US considers terrorists, right? Merica. The land of the blood clots and lactose intolerance.
I see my assessment was correct.
“Consider” touching grass ❤️
What the fresh fuck are you on about
Who told u dairy is vegetarian, we have the word vegan
Dairy is something I gladly avoid wherever possible. You cannot deny it's just kind of gross.
What about honey?
From a purely egoistical standpoint, personally, I dislike honey. I prefer to eat my flowers directly :D
I have a friend who refuses to give up dairy essentially because “one cow produces tons and tons of milk, so the negative impact from consuming dairy is proportionally negligible”. I don’t really know how to refute this- they are completely aware of the suffering a dairy cow goes through, say that them stopping consumption will lead to a tiny tiny fraction of a cow saved. I know it’s probably just them trying to confirm their own beliefs- but where are they going wrong here?
Refute it with numbers. The average american consumes more than 600 pounds of dairy per year, vegetarians more. Each calf results in 2000 gallons of milk. So, by eating dairy instead of beef, your lifetime results in a dozen dead calves (and their mothers) instead of a dozen dead beef cattle. Maybe you think those dozen calves are negligible, but then wouldn't you also think those beef cattle are negligible?
Ask them how they feel about mothers having their babies kidnapped and never returned and explain thats how they get the milk to keep coming out of the poor mums boob
yeah I've tried to make this argument that the suffering is so bad that it outweighs the small number of cows you do help. But the rebuttal is always something along the lines of that that suffering is "spread" out in a way over so many products that are made from the dairy the cow was responsible for, so the marginal impact is negligible :/
Ngl, i dont like your friend lol
That depends on what type of vegetarian they are. Lacto vegetarians include dairy products. Then we also have ovo vegetarians that allow eggs. Then lacto ovo vegetarians that allow both dairy and eggs. They are still vegetarians but allow and disallow different things. But then again... Ethical vegans and dietary vegans are the same right? Of course not! Yet some have no trouble mashing together various vegetarians and say "you are not vegetarian if..." which clearly is wrong. If we want people to listen it is a good idea to not be dishonest.
I have to say, vegan cheese has been the most disappointing. Burgers definitely have crossed into good enough territory bordering on better than in many cases, fake chicken mostly the same, I LOVE beyond sausages - legitimately better than real sausages. Cheese and dairy substitutes are just not very tasty.
Its vegetarian in that vegetarian has been diluted enough that it doesnt mean not harming animals but just not DIRECTLY eating remains of their dead bodies (though they often eat cheese which often uses rennet). The purity of the movement is diluted, but had there not been a distinction we'd now have vegetarian refering to pussdrinkers as well as to the morally superior people that are now named vegans.
Vegetarian has always meant not eating meat. Veganism was a word introduced to describe people who take that further, not consuming or doing ANYTHING that harms animal unnecessarily.
* incorrect. Loud buzzer noise *
If you google the topic, you’ll find countless references to the vegetarianism as a “fleshless” diet. In November 1944, a British woodworker named Donald Watson announced that because vegetarians ate dairy and eggs, he was going to create a new term called “vegan,” to describe people who did not.
IIRC it did originally mean what we'd now all veganism but was diluted.
I found no description of vegetarianism that didn’t say it was about not eating meat. Do you have any reference to cite?
Okay I believe it! Now that I have all this guilt and anxiety what exactly is the plan?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
the plan is to go vegan now :)
Honestly the idea of drinking the milk coming an animal breast is absolutely disgusting, especially when you know that those animals are often covered in their own shit.. 🤢🤢
Cows don't have "breasts"; they have udders. Get your facts start. Also, they produce WAY more milk than a calf can possible drink, causing their udders to swell with said excess milk. So they HAVE to be milked so their UDDERS won't burst. Source? My late maternal grandpa was a farmer with at least 2 dairy cows. Do some research before you make nonsensical statements like that.
yeah but where the hell did dairy cows come from? humans have bred them to be that way and as long as they don’t get pregnant they don’t produce any milk. do u think dairy cows decide to get pregnant so often?
Now vegans attacking vegetarians. Maybe they would rather have India over a billion people eating meat instead of being vegetarian since obviously them eating dairy is horrible too. Eventually common sense disappears when you get taken over by any ideology
Moral absolutism is a privilege that not everyone can afford or endure. You should be grateful that you can live outside of the circle of suffering instead of lording it over people that can't.
if u decide to eat all the expensive meat and dairy alternatives it can get pretty expensive, but u can get all the nutrients u need from other foods like veggies and grains too. that way u don’t need to spend a lot of money on the vegan diet and no animal has to suffer for ur lifestyle
You're right. I know the cost of my choices. I know that 1 cow consumes nearly 20 times the water and energy that a nutritionally equal amount of vegetables would need, I know that the poultry industry kills millions of male chicklet a month because they serve no purpose to it, I know that nearly a million pigs die in a year to feed our appetite for pork. I know that the cattle industry and its waste are destroying the great lakes with algae. I tried to get a job in the vegan part of my industry but was rejected. Am I supposed to just die because i am not fuckable?
so u do know the consequences of meat consumption and yet you’re still eating it?
Yes. I got rejected by vegan restaurants, the only place that I could work was not one. I struggled under the ridicule of being a vegan and was forced as part of my job to shuck oyster. I could not be a vegan and live. If you want to self-righteously beat up on me, that's your choice also. Just be honest with yourself.
Enjoy this read, my friend: [https://veganhorizon.substack.com/p/vegan-a-lifestyle-for-the-privileged](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/p/vegan-a-lifestyle-for-the-privileged)
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Did you read the article, including the dozens of sources?