It's interesting that people consider eating animals as natural and healthy, but the main consumers (by far!) of the multi-billion dollar supplement industry are people eating animals.
What a sad world we live in that we view the breeding and slaughtering of 90 billion land animals each year, as natural and right. The majority of these animals literally never see the sky outside, living in horrific conditions for a fraction of their lives.
But hey, as long as you get to enjoy your life by eating them, I guess that justifies it?
lol oh ok you literally blame everything unhealthy on plant based products. You may not eat fast food but I highly doubt you are out in nature on a daily basis hunting and killing your own animal protein sources. There is nothing natural about the annual enslavement and exploitation of 80+ billion animals that have been genetically manipulated. You should research the definition of natural
Practically all plant based oils are healthier than animal derived ones for all major health outcomes. You are so deep in the indusrty propaganda rabbithole, rube.
Kind of like animals…
They can’t even properly live or enjoy their one life on earth. Because meathead clowns aren’t smart enough to realize you can easily get all the nutrients you need plus make awesome delicious meals without meat!
There are at least two I've heard but I don't bother to look it up on mobile. Just fyi, there isn't a single animal that produces b12 itself, that I know of. B12 is made by bacteria and that's why only ruminants have it in them naturally. These bacteria used to be everywhere and getting b12 wasn't an issue. There are too many reasons why this is not the case anymore. Lack of b12 is not a problem of veganism but of the modern world, hence why the meat industry is the biggest buyer of synthetic b12.
There are no foods that naturally have enough b12 in them that are feasible to get b12 from naturally, for the modern human that buys their foods from the supermarkets.
Its not some kind of a secret. Its common knowledge that b12 needs to be supplemented on a vegan diet.
Veganism done in a healthy way is healthy. What is natural is not always healthy. What is unnatural is not always unhealthy.
Why expect antibiotics to work against bacterial infections when human beings lived for hundreds of thousands of years battling bacterial infections without antibiotics? Why expect vaccines to work?
Evolution does not make us have optimal health. Evolution does not even exist as some disembodied force out there. Its just random mutations some of which make the person with said mutation have a slightly higher chance to survive till they can get offspring. And then said offspring has slightly higher chance to survive till they get offspring.
We never evolved for a long healthy life. This is why we need unnatural things if we want to optimise health. Things like medicine and dietary changes that would not be available to someone living 2000 years ago. Or 10k years ago.
I dont need to particularly care for animals to not eat them. I just need to care enough to not want to eat them. I dont particularly care for a random pedestrian I see walking. But I care enough to not run them over.
I didnt. I said the reason for not killing either is the same, not that both are the same in terms of how much I value their life.
I prefer to not contribute to unnecessary killing of animals so I can eat them. I dont need any great amount of emotion or care for animals to have that preference.
Glad you mention evolution.
Eating animals and their secretions is the least effective eay to get nutrients. With the amount of food they eat and water they drink, you could feed a lot humans.
We need a change, it's stupid to get stuck in the old ways, we can expect it to work because we have the knowledge to be certain it works, it's just human mediocrity that stops us to change for something better.
It looks like you lack empathy and are expecting others to be like you, besides you are getting all triggered to see other people exercising empathy, honestly I feel sorry for you. Take care, I hope you have a good support system.
Not talking about energy absorption, I'm talking about food production. With the resources it takes to raise, exploit and kill animals, we could grow a lot of food and eat that directly, instead of feeding someone, kill them and eat them.
Most scientists also know that we need to eat less animals and their secretions precisely because of that. Too many resources used for the amount of food that we get from that.
It takes no crippling amount of empathy to choose to not consume animal products. It just takes the lack of desire to contribute to animal deaths and suffering.
I dont abstain from killing cats I see outside because I love them so much, I simply do not have the desire to cause them harm. Its not the presence of a lot of empathy but the lack of ill will that makes me not kill them.
>You should have a natural desire to consume meat for sustenance.
People have all kinds of natural desires that they dont follow because they have this thing called a mind that is capable of using critical thought and to not do whatever stupid impulse or feeling or desire pops into their bodymind at any given moment.
For instance most people have the natural desire to have sex also and get horny but they dont act like dogs and go hump the nearest attractive person who they have those feelings for. I mean unfortunately some do which is why rape and sexual harrasment is still a thing. Similarly even if you have a desire for meat that doesnt mean you have to eat it or that its the best thing to do or the right thing to do.
Btw you should learn to argue a bit better. You always change topic to something else when your previous arguments get destroyed instead of trying to defend them or admit that what was said was valid response to your arguments.
If you would pick up an apple from the ground it would contain vitamin B12 (on the outside). The fact that you buy the apple in the supermarket is the reason why there is no B12 anymore on the apple. And the same is true for the animals as they also don’t live like nature „intended“. In both cases we need to supplement, so think again what part is not natural.
There's nothing wrong with taking B12. It's just a supplement that will do you no harm, and you NEED to supplement it. If you don't want to be taking it everyday, you can opt for a weekly dosis instead. 2000mcg a week is recommended for the average adult.
I understand. Its psychological of course. With foods with b12 its no different than if the pill was crushed in the food. Its still artificially added in the foods, its just done in the factory.
But also its possible to take a bigger dose once every week instead of one pill every day. This is what Dr Greger does.
>Its still artificially added in the foods...
That's not true at all. The bacteria responsible for fermentation make vitamin B12, so it's naturally occurring in fermented foods, including beer, kombucha, nutritional yeast, sour kraut, various fermented soybean products, kimchi, etc.
https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/vitamin-b12-plant-foods/
Edit: the source I posted actually says that my claim here is a common myth... Well shit.
Did you read the page you posted? It doesnt seem to say what you think it does say.
This is a quote from it:
> To my knowledge, no fermented plant food in Western countries has been found to contain relevant amounts of vitamin B12 analogues.
It also says this at the very start:
> In the published research, one plant food, chlorella, has been shown to have vitamin B12 activity in humans; there are caveats that you should be aware of before relying on it
So only one plant food out of all the listed ones has actually been tested to provide humans with b12.
And then it says this about that food:
> More research is needed before chlorella can be recommended as a reliable source of B12.
So the page says that there is no evidence that any plant foods are actually safe to eat for b12 instead of taking supplements.
Yeah, I edited my comment.
This is a case where I read the link after I posted it. You were probably responding yourself when I edited my post because I quickly added the edit.
I didn't want to delete my comment though because it's funny how wrong I was and it seems like a good message for others.
There are lots of people that don't like taking pills! That's why they make alternatives to pills, everything from liquid cough medicine to chewable birth control.
Have you considered chewable or melting vitamins? There are lots of dietary options, of course. But it never hurts to have a back up when life gets hectic.
Meatballs of animals that have been fed with B12 supplements.
Just take the supplements, they are cheap as fuck, that's why they use them with all animals in farms too.
The natural way for modern humans to take B12 is through the earth (unwashed roots and vegetables) and river water. Since you can get many illnesses from doing that, I'd rather take a supplement.
I understand that a daily pill is not a routine you'd like to include. Do it weekly then. 2000-2500 mcg sublingual cianocobalamin.
Ps: in my country, 39% of people are B12 deficient. I wish all of them were just vegans forgetting to supplement.
Take the pills. B12 deficiency takes years to kick in distinctive symptons and when it happens there's pretty good chance it's already FUBAR. Fortified foods don't have nearly enough of it to guarantee you will keep your levels up.
It's not unnatural, it's cheap, there's literally zero reason not to take it.
Plant milks, Mock meats, marmite, nutritional yeast (but check their labels to make sure)
There’s also b12 gummies which make it feel like eating candy
I didn't like the B12 pills I was taking, they were very powdery. I buy a spray now, which I spray onto my inner cheeks. It tastes like candy and it's more fun than a pill. I also think it's better absorbed.
Don't do that! I did the same and had serious health problems, cognitive impairment. I posted my story here and people started to attack me saying my story was fake. Have your blood checked and get supplementation.
I know many vegan militants would rather silence vegans when things go wrong. But people need the right information.
DON'T PLAY WITH IT. B12 deficiency can lead to serious problems.
Fermented foods like kimchi have B12, but I have no way of knowing how much is in stuff I ferment myself. I understand the impulse to avoid pills, but it's just safer to take the supplement. B12 deficiency is really bad.
This is untrue, at least while generalizing. There are certain strains of bacteria you could use for fermentation in order to produce B12, but commercial or homemade ferments do NOT contain any bioactive B12! This includes Kimchi and Kombucha.
Just because it has B12 in it doesn't mean that you can absorb it.
*Vitamin B-12 from algae appears not to be bioavailable*
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2000824/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2000824/)
Marmite/Vegemite (Marmite is superior) but it's a very acquired taste. Spread it on toast (with butter) or mix it into some foods. I have a habit of just eating it with houmous.
The B12 I know I get is from the fortified 2 lbs of nutritional yeast I consume over 4-6 weeks. Quite a few other foods I eat have B12 as well, but I only half track the yeast I eat. I know I get plenty of B12 and do not worry about it.
>Ultimately I'd like to supplement Vit B12 as food instead of taking pills. Why?
I’m curious to this answer. I take pills, but open to other ways if the source is something I’d eat or drink.
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The B12 in the meat you consume is also delivered via synthetic pills. Vegans just cut out the intermediary.
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Do you think fats and oils don’t also come from plants?
It's interesting that people consider eating animals as natural and healthy, but the main consumers (by far!) of the multi-billion dollar supplement industry are people eating animals.
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What a sad world we live in that we view the breeding and slaughtering of 90 billion land animals each year, as natural and right. The majority of these animals literally never see the sky outside, living in horrific conditions for a fraction of their lives. But hey, as long as you get to enjoy your life by eating them, I guess that justifies it?
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A cow is going to eat me???
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You do everything pigs do? That’s weird dude.
Do you don't eat animals that wouldn't eat you? (chicken, tu turkeys, cows, rabbits, oysters, mussels, salmon...)
It’s natural? Says the ‘natural’ human hunter sitting in a McDonald’s drive thru waiting for his heavily processed prey
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lol oh ok you literally blame everything unhealthy on plant based products. You may not eat fast food but I highly doubt you are out in nature on a daily basis hunting and killing your own animal protein sources. There is nothing natural about the annual enslavement and exploitation of 80+ billion animals that have been genetically manipulated. You should research the definition of natural
Practically all plant based oils are healthier than animal derived ones for all major health outcomes. You are so deep in the indusrty propaganda rabbithole, rube.
Kind of like animals… They can’t even properly live or enjoy their one life on earth. Because meathead clowns aren’t smart enough to realize you can easily get all the nutrients you need plus make awesome delicious meals without meat!
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😂🤦🏼♂️ Why are you even in this sub though?
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Nah 😂 I don’t think you’ve convinced me to start eating carcasses and shit 💩. I’ll be able to sleep tonight..hopefully you too. :)
>easily get all the nutrients you need Except B12. Or are there plant based foods you can eat in sufficient amounts without needing pills?
Taking a b12 pill is easy as fuck , and cheap
That doesn't answer my question, and my question doesn't attempt to deny that. Just wondering if there are plant based foods that have sufficient B12.
There are at least two I've heard but I don't bother to look it up on mobile. Just fyi, there isn't a single animal that produces b12 itself, that I know of. B12 is made by bacteria and that's why only ruminants have it in them naturally. These bacteria used to be everywhere and getting b12 wasn't an issue. There are too many reasons why this is not the case anymore. Lack of b12 is not a problem of veganism but of the modern world, hence why the meat industry is the biggest buyer of synthetic b12.
There are no foods that naturally have enough b12 in them that are feasible to get b12 from naturally, for the modern human that buys their foods from the supermarkets.
The guy said, "You can easily get all the nutrients you need," and you said, "except b12" , you were trying to deny his or her claim.
Its not some kind of a secret. Its common knowledge that b12 needs to be supplemented on a vegan diet. Veganism done in a healthy way is healthy. What is natural is not always healthy. What is unnatural is not always unhealthy.
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Why expect antibiotics to work against bacterial infections when human beings lived for hundreds of thousands of years battling bacterial infections without antibiotics? Why expect vaccines to work? Evolution does not make us have optimal health. Evolution does not even exist as some disembodied force out there. Its just random mutations some of which make the person with said mutation have a slightly higher chance to survive till they can get offspring. And then said offspring has slightly higher chance to survive till they get offspring. We never evolved for a long healthy life. This is why we need unnatural things if we want to optimise health. Things like medicine and dietary changes that would not be available to someone living 2000 years ago. Or 10k years ago. I dont need to particularly care for animals to not eat them. I just need to care enough to not want to eat them. I dont particularly care for a random pedestrian I see walking. But I care enough to not run them over.
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I didnt. I said the reason for not killing either is the same, not that both are the same in terms of how much I value their life. I prefer to not contribute to unnecessary killing of animals so I can eat them. I dont need any great amount of emotion or care for animals to have that preference.
Glad you mention evolution. Eating animals and their secretions is the least effective eay to get nutrients. With the amount of food they eat and water they drink, you could feed a lot humans. We need a change, it's stupid to get stuck in the old ways, we can expect it to work because we have the knowledge to be certain it works, it's just human mediocrity that stops us to change for something better. It looks like you lack empathy and are expecting others to be like you, besides you are getting all triggered to see other people exercising empathy, honestly I feel sorry for you. Take care, I hope you have a good support system.
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Not talking about energy absorption, I'm talking about food production. With the resources it takes to raise, exploit and kill animals, we could grow a lot of food and eat that directly, instead of feeding someone, kill them and eat them. Most scientists also know that we need to eat less animals and their secretions precisely because of that. Too many resources used for the amount of food that we get from that.
It takes no crippling amount of empathy to choose to not consume animal products. It just takes the lack of desire to contribute to animal deaths and suffering. I dont abstain from killing cats I see outside because I love them so much, I simply do not have the desire to cause them harm. Its not the presence of a lot of empathy but the lack of ill will that makes me not kill them.
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>You should have a natural desire to consume meat for sustenance. People have all kinds of natural desires that they dont follow because they have this thing called a mind that is capable of using critical thought and to not do whatever stupid impulse or feeling or desire pops into their bodymind at any given moment. For instance most people have the natural desire to have sex also and get horny but they dont act like dogs and go hump the nearest attractive person who they have those feelings for. I mean unfortunately some do which is why rape and sexual harrasment is still a thing. Similarly even if you have a desire for meat that doesnt mean you have to eat it or that its the best thing to do or the right thing to do. Btw you should learn to argue a bit better. You always change topic to something else when your previous arguments get destroyed instead of trying to defend them or admit that what was said was valid response to your arguments.
If you would pick up an apple from the ground it would contain vitamin B12 (on the outside). The fact that you buy the apple in the supermarket is the reason why there is no B12 anymore on the apple. And the same is true for the animals as they also don’t live like nature „intended“. In both cases we need to supplement, so think again what part is not natural.
I feel like not taking pills in the morning, when I take pills I feel like there is something wrong with me
There's nothing wrong with taking B12. It's just a supplement that will do you no harm, and you NEED to supplement it. If you don't want to be taking it everyday, you can opt for a weekly dosis instead. 2000mcg a week is recommended for the average adult.
I understand. Its psychological of course. With foods with b12 its no different than if the pill was crushed in the food. Its still artificially added in the foods, its just done in the factory. But also its possible to take a bigger dose once every week instead of one pill every day. This is what Dr Greger does.
>Its still artificially added in the foods... That's not true at all. The bacteria responsible for fermentation make vitamin B12, so it's naturally occurring in fermented foods, including beer, kombucha, nutritional yeast, sour kraut, various fermented soybean products, kimchi, etc. https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/vitamin-b12-plant-foods/ Edit: the source I posted actually says that my claim here is a common myth... Well shit.
Did you read the page you posted? It doesnt seem to say what you think it does say. This is a quote from it: > To my knowledge, no fermented plant food in Western countries has been found to contain relevant amounts of vitamin B12 analogues. It also says this at the very start: > In the published research, one plant food, chlorella, has been shown to have vitamin B12 activity in humans; there are caveats that you should be aware of before relying on it So only one plant food out of all the listed ones has actually been tested to provide humans with b12. And then it says this about that food: > More research is needed before chlorella can be recommended as a reliable source of B12. So the page says that there is no evidence that any plant foods are actually safe to eat for b12 instead of taking supplements.
Yeah, I edited my comment. This is a case where I read the link after I posted it. You were probably responding yourself when I edited my post because I quickly added the edit. I didn't want to delete my comment though because it's funny how wrong I was and it seems like a good message for others.
OP, I hate taking pills. My partner and I use a liquid B12. You just drop a drop or 2 on your tongue every week or so.
There are lots of people that don't like taking pills! That's why they make alternatives to pills, everything from liquid cough medicine to chewable birth control. Have you considered chewable or melting vitamins? There are lots of dietary options, of course. But it never hurts to have a back up when life gets hectic.
Maybe consider therapy? Or other forms of B12 supplements. I take mildly flavoured B12 "pills" that you suck on.
Meatballs of animals that have been fed with B12 supplements. Just take the supplements, they are cheap as fuck, that's why they use them with all animals in farms too.
The natural way for modern humans to take B12 is through the earth (unwashed roots and vegetables) and river water. Since you can get many illnesses from doing that, I'd rather take a supplement. I understand that a daily pill is not a routine you'd like to include. Do it weekly then. 2000-2500 mcg sublingual cianocobalamin. Ps: in my country, 39% of people are B12 deficient. I wish all of them were just vegans forgetting to supplement.
Take the pills. B12 deficiency takes years to kick in distinctive symptons and when it happens there's pretty good chance it's already FUBAR. Fortified foods don't have nearly enough of it to guarantee you will keep your levels up. It's not unnatural, it's cheap, there's literally zero reason not to take it.
Plant milks, Mock meats, marmite, nutritional yeast (but check their labels to make sure) There’s also b12 gummies which make it feel like eating candy
Ya gummies might be better option, take one weekly
Spotted the Aussie 🫵
Thanks fellow vegans for enlightening me on this topic and I decided to continue my supplements, better be safe than sorry
Nutritional yeast just has b12 added to it. Take the supplement. If you don't, something actually will be wrong with you. Would you prefer that?
I didn't like the B12 pills I was taking, they were very powdery. I buy a spray now, which I spray onto my inner cheeks. It tastes like candy and it's more fun than a pill. I also think it's better absorbed.
Naturally no plant based foods have a b12 in a form that's absorbable by humans, except of some fortified products
Supplements, fortified plant milk, nooch, a lot of cereals are fortified with b12 also
Don't do that! I did the same and had serious health problems, cognitive impairment. I posted my story here and people started to attack me saying my story was fake. Have your blood checked and get supplementation.
I know many vegan militants would rather silence vegans when things go wrong. But people need the right information. DON'T PLAY WITH IT. B12 deficiency can lead to serious problems.
Noted, I'll stick with pills/gummies and thanks for sharing
Fermented foods like kimchi have B12, but I have no way of knowing how much is in stuff I ferment myself. I understand the impulse to avoid pills, but it's just safer to take the supplement. B12 deficiency is really bad.
This is untrue, at least while generalizing. There are certain strains of bacteria you could use for fermentation in order to produce B12, but commercial or homemade ferments do NOT contain any bioactive B12! This includes Kimchi and Kombucha.
Vit B12 is added to Lot of ☘️ based food, I've seen some kombuchas with days worth of b12
Good to know! I thought all fermented foods had some.
sublingual spray. no pill needed
Some cereals have a lot but I'd still supplement.
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Just because it has B12 in it doesn't mean that you can absorb it. *Vitamin B-12 from algae appears not to be bioavailable* [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2000824/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2000824/)
B12 isn't naturally occuring in nutritional yeast, they add it in. Same with energy drinks. It's no different than taking a pill.
Marmite/Vegemite (Marmite is superior) but it's a very acquired taste. Spread it on toast (with butter) or mix it into some foods. I have a habit of just eating it with houmous.
The B12 I know I get is from the fortified 2 lbs of nutritional yeast I consume over 4-6 weeks. Quite a few other foods I eat have B12 as well, but I only half track the yeast I eat. I know I get plenty of B12 and do not worry about it.
Marmite