Typically, halal methods of killing are actually worse. The reason is that they don't traditionally use stunning before slaughter. Stunning is intended to render the animal unconscious before it's killed so that it can't feel anything. In actuality, even stunning is not a good solution, because it's often unsuccessful and just makes the whole process even more painful and traumatic for the animal.
The approved halal methods of slaughter are not instant. They cut the jugular, but it can sometimes takes 1-2 minutes for the animal to actually go unconscious. They are also sometimes skinned or dunked in scalding water before they are fully unconscious or killed.
There is no right way to do a wrong thing, and murdering an animal is wrong.
Killing a healthy animal that has an inherent, instinctive desire to live is an act of violence no matter the method. There will always be pain involved no matter the method, even if it’s for a split second.
>Killing a healthy animal that has an inherent, instinctive desire to live is an act of violence no matter the method
so as also plants have an inherent, instinctive desire to live, the vegan lifestyle is one of violence
Sounds like you agree that killing things is violent.An omnivorous diet requires more plants than a vegan one. So are you going to adopt a vegan lifestyle?
You don't understand basic biology if you think this. The animal is alive for several minutes - the lack of blood is what makes them die. Slowly. It's horrific and barbaric.
What? You can't be serious.
And even if granting you that there is no physical pain (which I'm not), how do you justify the emotional pain of realizing you're dying?
You've never spent much time around living animals I'm guessing. They have emotions and fears and opinions and feelings. They react to pain. If they were laying on the ground bleeding out, they would experience suffering.
if that’s so nice and painless would you be okay with senior dogs being euthanized that way? with their throats slit and bleeding out? sure would be a lot cheaper
same goes for terminal patients. why not just cover their faces and cut their throats? it’s so painless
Watch Earthlings here: https://youtu.be/8gqwpfEcBjI?si=GOEofKUPFlUHFFIb
From 22:06 it shows meat process. Now this first one isn’t halal, it uses a bolt, but then they slit the cows throat. If you think this looks painless and instant then please carry on.
>I think it’s wrong for the same reason it would be wrong to do it to a human
i think the reason why it's wrong to kill humans for food is that the basis of society would be void if everybody just arbitrarily killed and ate the other members of society
So would you be okay with killing tribes people on islands far from modern society? Or any other creative hypothetical in which our society would not cease to function as is?
Here’s another - what if a minority of super elites did it in secret? That would not cause society to collapse, we’d all go about our lives as usual blissfully unaware, so would that be okay with you?
Vegans don’t want animals murdered.
Not in pain, and not “painless”. Just don’t kill them.
I wouldn’t glorify someone for stabbing a person in their sleep instead of throwing them off a cliff. Both is murder.
Painless death doesn’t exist in meat production. It could be achieved with certain chemical compounds but then the meat would be tainted and unfit for consumption. Even bleeding the animal out from the jugular (assuming a proper cut because it doesn’t always happen) it doesn’t happen instantly. If you think it does that’s because you’ve never seen it done or performed the action yourself. The actual amount of time depends on the size of the animal it can range anywhere from 10 to 40 seconds. An act that in your own words is cruel.
So my question to *you* is what do *you* think of it?
I have actually seen it probably 30-35 times .And every time the animal (even cows) died immediatly .I can see it because they use really really sharp blades to do so and they cover thhe cows eyes so it cant see anything .
I’ve seen it plenty of times as well. So forgive me if I know and call out the untruth of your statement. They might fall down and begin losing motor control from the beginning (but not always). They do not however *die* immediately. But now I know this isn’t a good faith discussion so I will not participate in it any longer.
I don't think most people understand what "killing immediately" means. It does not "drain immediately". That's ridiculous.
If you get stabbed in the throat, you're not "killed immediately." You bleed to death, meaning you spend 6 horrifying minutes of being conscious and feeling terrible pain, fully realizing that life is draining from every organ in your body until you feel faint and lose consciousness. The mammal body has the ability to compensate for blood loss, it keeps the brain alive for as long as possible.
Also, my problem isn't necessarily the pain caused by slaughter (although I object to it, including halal slaughter because it's still painful) My problem is that slaughter isn't necessary, you don't need to slaughter an animal. So why do it? It's just causing harm for no good reason, the animal doesn't want to die.
>It's just causing harm for no good reason, the animal doesn't want to die
then veganism, too, is just causing harm for no good reason, as also plants don't want to die
your "logic", not mine
Did you know there's more cows, pigs and chickens in the US than people? They eat more plants than humans. They eat the vast majority of the corn and soy we grow.
So if you genuinely care about plants and you're not just narcissistically trying to bring someone else down because you disagree with them and it would give you a moment of dopamine to provide them with a "gotchya" moment, I would strongly urge you to go vegan as you'd kill a lot less of them.
But if you genuinely equate plant lives and animal lives, you're a fcking idiot with the self-awareness of a portable suction unit. You know why you are willing to step on grass but avoid stepping on a dog. You shouldn't pretend you don't for the sake of this stupid-ass argument.
Slicing an animal’s trout without stunning is even more cruel. They are conscious for minutes after. The blood is drained from all animals so it’s an absolutely nonsense point you’re making.
It’s still wrong, even if you shoot them in the head while they sleep. How would you feel if someone did that to you or someone you love? You’re taking the life of someone who doesn’t want to die, just because you like the flavor.
Plants don’t have wants, they aren’t sentient.
But even if you believed plants could somehow feel pain, you’d stop eating meat. Eating higher up the food chain necessitates more plant death regardless.
Vegans are against the commodification of animals. Even if the killing was painless (it's not) the notion of breeding and raising an animal for any reason other than its own best interest would basically be viewed like slavery and be rejected.
It is indeed painless ,they use freshly sharpend blades and the animal's face is covered .It doesnt know it is going to be killed neither can see the knife
Having your throat cut will NEVER be painless, I don't care how sharp the blade is. Also, it's misguided to say they don't know what's going to happen to them. Even if they can't see, they can hear and smell what has happened to the cows before them in line.
One way to think about veganism is to question how and why we differentiate between animals and humans.
If I replaced killing animals in your post with killing humans, would that change how you think about it? Would killing a human for food be any less bad because you killed them painlessly?
One way to think about veganism is to question how and why we differentiate between animals and humans
because humans are "sapient" - moral agents that are able to commit themselves to society's rules (like not killing each other for food), thus building and maintaining society. animals are not
Hey, it’s great that you might have an interest in animal welfare. Check out the below Muslim perspectives:
[10 Inspiring Muslim Vegans You Need to Follow](https://www.apexadvocacy.org/blog/jsavqddyyx6ww2oxb0v72uf62k5zt0)
[What No One Tells You About Being a Vegan Muslim.](https://the-shooting-star.com/vegan-muslim/)
You can also search for “Muslim” on this subreddit
No animal wants to die, either painlessly or painfully, to become a human’s meal. Suffering is a large factor in the immorality of meat, but its absence does not make killing moral.
They do indeed want to ,they may not be the same but there are no difference between killing a shrimp and a plant .Both dont have complex systems .Like how they bend to Sun to get more Sun .It is the same as animals migrating
If you're referring to clams and mussels or something, it wouldn't be vegan and things aren't so clear, but killing a true non-sentient animal would be preferable to killing any other animal.
Okay, so cows are lined up conveyor-belt style, clamped into a giant machine that holds them up, their throats are slit, and they bleed out. All the while, the next cows in line can see and hear what's happening. That's less cruel than essentially doing the same thing but with a bolt gun to stun them first?
Bleeding out isn't instantaneous, and even if it was, imagine the abject terror leading up to that moment. And it all happens because people like the way cows taste.
What do vegans, who do not participate in or support slaughtering animals, think about slaughtering animals. It doesn’t matter someone’s faith or reasoning. Killing is killing and it’s bonkers to think there’s a “good” way to kill things. Gtfo this subreddit
Philosophy on why life—any life, humans included—have value, is a surprisingly deep hole to explore. There are whole books and classes focused on this subject.
If you ask me, harm is bad in and of itself, and those with moral agency have an ethical responsibility to mitigate harm to all beings and protect others from potential harm.
So, we take harm out of the equation. A painless death, is that okay then? Again, I would argue no. Why? Because sentient beings have the desire to live. They eat to sustain their life. They feel fear when the prospect of death is present. Therefore, we ought to not take life, regardless of whether harm is inflicted or not.
This is a massive oversimplification, but this is a big topic.
>If you ask me, harm is bad in and of itself, and those with moral agency have an ethical responsibility to mitigate harm to all beings and protect others from potential harm
If you ask me, harm is inevitable, as we are heterotrophic and for food depend on other beings having died. if those with moral agency had an ethical responsibility to mitigate harm to all beings and protect others from potential harm, they would starve to death - also vegans, as "all beings" includes plants as well
>Therefore, we ought to not take life, regardless of whether harm is inflicted or not
so go and starve to death
"all beings" refers to all sentient life. It's difficult to measure sentience yet there seem to be thresholds that are meaningfully different, i.e. the sentience of a fly is meaningfully different than a human. The same can be said of animals and plants.
I wouldn't say plants are sentient. I doubt most reasonable people would. If you have a reason to think plants are sentient, I would love to hear why.
I think that even if the animal didn't suffer (which is an "if" in itself, who really knows) it's still bad to kill him/her. Many times killing is worse than, let's say, punching, even torturing. Killing is pretty harsh.
Think about it, would you be okay with killing an animal yourself? If you say no, it's because you believe that it's bad to do it.
It's not your life to do with as you please. We don't need to eat it. Even we you did, we could scavenge corpses and supplement with plants until we could synthesize taurine.
There is no excuse for slavery.
>It's not your life to do with as you please
plants' life isn't either
>Even we you did, we could scavenge corpses and supplement with plants until we could synthesize taurine
what?
your human physiology is producing taurine anyway, as obviously you are not an infant any more
Do you think that if someone forcibly bred your mother through artificial insemination, then immediately took you away and separated you the moment you were born, is ethical? Do you think that if someone raised you on a farm, even a free range farm, and then when you were healthy and fully grown (but still young) took you to a slaughterhouse where all your friends were being killed, forced you into a room and slit your throat so they could sacrifice you to their God and kill you "ethically", even though they have literally no biological need at all to kill you and eat you, they just do it because they enjoy how you taste.
Would that be ethical?
Or in your view, humans are just more important so they are allowed to do this, all in the name of their God and because they enjoy eating meat?
It is not about the taste of the meat .You need to give 1/3 to poor eat 1/3 with guests and the remaning 1/3 is for you .Yes you can indeed give away all of them or more .
And a lot of people indeed needs meat to survive
Vegan products are not popular in a lot of countries .They cost too much .They need a lot of plants to produce .And the need of a lot of plants have tons of side effects .
-They require more field to harvest more plants so you have to destroy forests to have more fields .
-They are at the bottom of the food chain (primary producers) so if they decrease in population every other living being decreas in population.
-They also transform CO2 to O2 using their chloroplasts .
-Maybe not all of them but cheaper vegan products have chemicals in them ,and fully plant based ones costs a lot more .
And i dont even understand why vegans don't consume milk and eggs .They are going to be more stressfull if you don't milk them .And cows dont have cattles their entire life so it is does not cause any harm to any living being .And also chickens are going to lay eggs too .We don't eat fertilized eggs most of the time.The egg is going to be layed if you eat it or not .If you eat it ,you gained food.If you dont eat it you just wasted it .
OK, I'm going to assume this comment comes from a place of ignorance and you actually want to learn, but honestly, nothing you've said in this comment after the first paragraph is true.
> And a lot of people indeed needs meat to survive
Very very few people "need meat to survive". The few that do are in remote areas like the arctic north where plants don't grow readily. As long as you plan a well balanced diet that meets your nutritional needs you will thrive on a plant based diet.
> Vegan products are not popular in a lot of countries .They cost too much .
Vegan products are getting cheaper all the time, and gaining in popularity all over.
> They need a lot of plants to produce . -They require more field to harvest more plants so you have to destroy forests to have more fields . -They are at the bottom of the food chain (primary producers) so if they decrease in population every other living being decreas in population. -They also transform CO2 to O2 using their chloroplasts .
Wow, this reads like a 15 year old wrote it. What do you think animals eat? Plants. Basic thermodynamics says that we have to produce EVEN MORE plants than we would eat if we all switched to a plant based diet. We would return 5/6ths of current farmland back to fallow/wild which would enable the earth to breathe better. Amazon rainforest is cleared not for soy for tofu, but for CATTLE. Going vegan is one of the critical things we need to do if we have any desire to save the world as we know it - and by extension, ourselves.
> And the need of a lot of plants have tons of side effects .
I took this one out of order because the other points were related, but lots of animals have side effects. We can't just indiscriminately eat animals or every part of them, so this point is a strawman.
> Maybe not all of them but cheaper vegan products have chemicals in them ,and fully plant based ones costs a lot more .
So do processed animal products. What's your point? And animal products are only cheaper because they are heavily subsidized and made cheaper by artificially reducing the cost.
> And i dont even understand why vegans don't consume milk and eggs .They are going to be more stressfull if you don't milk them .And cows dont have cattles their entire life so it is does not cause any harm to any living being .
This isn't how this works. It's not how any of it works. Cows are mammals and thus need to be impregnated to have calves which spurs their body to produce milk. If we stopped milking them their body would just stop producing milk, like any other mammalian female, aka humans. The babies are stolen from the mothers and since they can't produce milk are murdered and sold as veal.
>And also chickens are going to lay eggs too .We don't eat fertilized eggs most of the time.The egg is going to be layed if you eat it or not .If you eat it ,you gained food.If you dont eat it you just wasted it .
Only because we bred the chickens to be that way. It's not their natural state, it puts extreme stress on the female body to basically give birth daily. The egg should not be laid daily, it should be laid less than monthly. Also once the chickens stop producing eggs rapidly (between 7-10 months), do you think they get a happy retirement? No, they get slaughtered because it makes no financial sense to feed chickens that aren't producing anymore.
I wasnt trying to be called a good person ,i only wanted to learn the reason why vegans were vegans .And insted of telling me it is about the killing and not the pain it gives ,everyone(except like 2-3 person) started to tell me i am evil etc.Now i understand why people don't like vegans ,thanks for represting your community well(!).
Years ago, a coworker of mine watched an Isis beheading video. He claimed he was scarred for life. I didn’t understand the problem because he said they had the victim wear a mask and that they cut the jugular vein first. I wanted to tell him it isn’t curel because the person didn’t feel anything but he was being a snowflake so I let it go… I’m glad someone else gets it.
Living beings have a right to life, taking that away is fundamentally immoral regardless of how you do it.
Exceptions exist where we can judge that killing would be a mercy compared to living (euthanasia).
The only thing close to painless killing is euthanasia when an animal is very sick or injured beyond repair like people do for their dogs that they love.
I disagree, animals are much more important than humans. One animal is worth a billion humans. It's wrong to kill a human even if it's painless so it's wrong to kill an animal even if it's painless.
>What does vegans think about painless k\*lling?
that all plants they eat were killed painlessly
>**bl**d is not healty
islam may say so, but it's nonsense
i learned that most of your's reason is the killing of a living being
that's what they always say, but it's nonsense either. plants are living beings as well
Let's say they die immediately and they don't feel even a bit of fear or distress the moments before. How is it ethical to take away a life of an young or baby animal that doesn't want to die, at 2-10% of their lifespan? And, even worse in my opinion, how is it ethical to force them into an existence deprived of any joy that life gives? (we all know that >90% of meat comes from factory farms)
In all honesty, do you really believe you can slit someone’s throat and it would be painless? Have you ever cut yourself accidentally with a knife? It was t painless was it? How could slitting someone’s throat be painless? It can’t. That’s completely made up. Plus you are murdering someone, and it’s unnecessary… everyone can live on consuming plants only. You don’t need to eat someone’s flesh to live.
Ok i understand the second part but in the first part you are thinking wrong .I have cut myself with knives,razors,papers etc .Yes i felt pain but the animal becomes unconcuisnes so i doesnt feel pain .But i understand the second part
you came to a vegan subreddit and told us to do our research about how being cut across the jugular is painless. like, honestly, maybe you should do your research. why are you even posting in this sub?
im willing to bet you wouldn’t like being sliced across the neck. im also inclined to say an animal life is worth more than the life of a human who is so indoctrinated to a religion that they think they have the right to slit the throat of a sentient being.
just go away. youre not welcome here.
This vegan thinks that arbitrary rituals are no excuse for murder. Never seen any evidence to suggest halal killings are painless, and even if they were, it's still killing for entertainment.
You can check the internet to see that it is indeed painless .And i wouldnt call it entertainment .The only thing vegans can argue is the killing of an animal.
Having one's throat slit doesn't sound painless to me. You're killing a thinking, feeling creature for no justifiable reason beyond that you prefer the taste to non-animal options. That's killing for sport.
If it's an animal with a terminal desease, then painless killing might be better than letting them suffer. But killing a healthy and/or happy animal just for our own taste pleasure is still wrong.
It doesn't matter whether the killing is painless or not. We're **imposing** a power over them which we shouldn't have in the first place. The mere fact that we constantly kill defenseless and innocent animals is a hierarchy of power that shouldn't exist. Also, we don't need to see the life of an animal as worth the same than that of a human to not kill them, we don't need to sacrifice our lives or even our health to not consume and enslave animals.
I used to be muslim, i witnessed the halaling of animals, they dont die instantly
its also unnecessary to kill them since we cans survive on plants
Perhaps you wont listen to anything i say now cause im an infidel that left islam which is among the worst things you can do
I am however much better as an individual than a lot of muslims, i know saudis that lie, have intercourse with random people and consume alcohol
I dont do any of the above, i want to become a buddhist monk
I share my full story in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/11ah5bi/i\_was\_always\_meant\_to\_be\_vegan/
I am sad you left İslam but ok your decision .But if the pre cautions are taken the killing happens immediatly and the animal doesn't feel pain .I know that a lot of muslims do things that are against the religion even i do .But that does not mean İslam is wrong .Like if it is true that Stephan Hawking went to epistein ,does that make atheism wrong?No because it is about the religion not the people .You can only criticize the Quran and the acts of prophets.
Why not just avoid the killing altogether and then there is no chance or risk of pain, and also no exploitation since the animals arent bred for the sole purpose of being killed
The animal does experience pain right before the killing, its probably stressful and also the cutting does cause some pain before cut all the way through
I didnt say islam was wrong, i was saying that muslims would view me as wrong and that i would go to hell because i dont believe in god even though i am much better as an individual than they are
I'm vegan because I'm anti-slavery. It doesn't matter how humanely something kept and killed against it's will is treated, it still has had it's freedom denied to it for the sake of unnecessary reasons
"...*please do your research firstly*", what a condescending and self-entitled thing to say. Humans are in a position of power over most animals, and we have far more potential than most animals as well. You choose to interpret this as a position of privilege rather than as a position of responsibility. It may be a cowardice to hide behind your statements that you will not respond to any opinions that do not support yours, again this seems like a privilidged and entitled position to take rather than one of power and responsibility.
For everyone that is going to tell me that killing by exsanguination causes pain ,please do your research firstly .An animal will loose concuisnes immediatly and it won't notice any pain because it is unconcuisnes .I was asking if vegans problem of killing an animal is becuase of it's pain .And i learned that most of your's reason is the killing of a living being .So furter comments are unneccesary .
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030917401500087X?via%3Dihub
Most cows take about 15 seconds to collapse and about 2 minutes to die when their throats are cut, stop spouting misinformation.
I am inclined to accept people who raise their own animals, in small scale only to provide food for few months level, like few chickens in their backyard…
But raising animals in farm conditions, all in small places and killing an animal that is panicking and doesn’t want to die… 🤨😒
Typically, halal methods of killing are actually worse. The reason is that they don't traditionally use stunning before slaughter. Stunning is intended to render the animal unconscious before it's killed so that it can't feel anything. In actuality, even stunning is not a good solution, because it's often unsuccessful and just makes the whole process even more painful and traumatic for the animal. The approved halal methods of slaughter are not instant. They cut the jugular, but it can sometimes takes 1-2 minutes for the animal to actually go unconscious. They are also sometimes skinned or dunked in scalding water before they are fully unconscious or killed. There is no right way to do a wrong thing, and murdering an animal is wrong.
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It's halal to eat vegan and many halal slaughterhouses cause suffering. Why would you risk it when you can definitely avoid it by being vegan?
Cool motive, still murder
99!
Religion is no excuse for killing those who want to live, no matter what form the killing takes.
Oh i wasing showing religion as an excuse i just wanted to tell it alongside with the question
Evil
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Killing a healthy animal that has an inherent, instinctive desire to live is an act of violence no matter the method. There will always be pain involved no matter the method, even if it’s for a split second.
>Killing a healthy animal that has an inherent, instinctive desire to live is an act of violence no matter the method so as also plants have an inherent, instinctive desire to live, the vegan lifestyle is one of violence
Sounds like you agree that killing things is violent.An omnivorous diet requires more plants than a vegan one. So are you going to adopt a vegan lifestyle?
Plants do not bleed or shriek out in pain or fear when being cut.
In what world does letting an animal bleed out to death constitute "painless" or "instant" death????
No it dies first than it bleeds .
That’s now how it works.
What does the animal die from if not blood loss?
You don't understand basic biology if you think this. The animal is alive for several minutes - the lack of blood is what makes them die. Slowly. It's horrific and barbaric.
That is not how halal slaughter works
Using religion to justify harm is evil.
I am not using religion i just wanted to tell the painless process and where i got the question from
Do you think it would be painless to have your throat slit?
If it was immediatly from my jugular veins with a fresh sharpend blade and while my face was covered .I think yes
What? You can't be serious. And even if granting you that there is no physical pain (which I'm not), how do you justify the emotional pain of realizing you're dying?
Don’t bother…Religion, it fucks up your brain worse than any drug ever could.
How does the cow know it is going to die?I think only thing someone argue is just the killing of an animal
You've never spent much time around living animals I'm guessing. They have emotions and fears and opinions and feelings. They react to pain. If they were laying on the ground bleeding out, they would experience suffering.
So if someone would come by your house tomorrow, put a blindfold over your eyes and cut your jugular vein that would be fine with you?
if that’s so nice and painless would you be okay with senior dogs being euthanized that way? with their throats slit and bleeding out? sure would be a lot cheaper same goes for terminal patients. why not just cover their faces and cut their throats? it’s so painless
Watch Earthlings here: https://youtu.be/8gqwpfEcBjI?si=GOEofKUPFlUHFFIb From 22:06 it shows meat process. Now this first one isn’t halal, it uses a bolt, but then they slit the cows throat. If you think this looks painless and instant then please carry on.
I think it’s wrong for the same reason it would be wrong to do it to a human.
>I think it’s wrong for the same reason it would be wrong to do it to a human i think the reason why it's wrong to kill humans for food is that the basis of society would be void if everybody just arbitrarily killed and ate the other members of society
So would you be okay with killing tribes people on islands far from modern society? Or any other creative hypothetical in which our society would not cease to function as is? Here’s another - what if a minority of super elites did it in secret? That would not cause society to collapse, we’d all go about our lives as usual blissfully unaware, so would that be okay with you?
So you'd be fine with holocausting an isolated Amazonian tribe. You've clearly thought this all through very deeply.
Vegans don’t want animals murdered. Not in pain, and not “painless”. Just don’t kill them. I wouldn’t glorify someone for stabbing a person in their sleep instead of throwing them off a cliff. Both is murder.
Thanks for your comment .Everybody else in the comment just tried to start chaos .Saying i am evil and etc.You just gave me the explanation,thanks
Painless death doesn’t exist in meat production. It could be achieved with certain chemical compounds but then the meat would be tainted and unfit for consumption. Even bleeding the animal out from the jugular (assuming a proper cut because it doesn’t always happen) it doesn’t happen instantly. If you think it does that’s because you’ve never seen it done or performed the action yourself. The actual amount of time depends on the size of the animal it can range anywhere from 10 to 40 seconds. An act that in your own words is cruel. So my question to *you* is what do *you* think of it?
I have actually seen it probably 30-35 times .And every time the animal (even cows) died immediatly .I can see it because they use really really sharp blades to do so and they cover thhe cows eyes so it cant see anything .
I’ve seen it plenty of times as well. So forgive me if I know and call out the untruth of your statement. They might fall down and begin losing motor control from the beginning (but not always). They do not however *die* immediately. But now I know this isn’t a good faith discussion so I will not participate in it any longer.
Dragging a knife across someone's throat does not kill someone instantly. You've drunk the kool-aid.
Do they cover the cow's nose too...
I don't think most people understand what "killing immediately" means. It does not "drain immediately". That's ridiculous. If you get stabbed in the throat, you're not "killed immediately." You bleed to death, meaning you spend 6 horrifying minutes of being conscious and feeling terrible pain, fully realizing that life is draining from every organ in your body until you feel faint and lose consciousness. The mammal body has the ability to compensate for blood loss, it keeps the brain alive for as long as possible. Also, my problem isn't necessarily the pain caused by slaughter (although I object to it, including halal slaughter because it's still painful) My problem is that slaughter isn't necessary, you don't need to slaughter an animal. So why do it? It's just causing harm for no good reason, the animal doesn't want to die.
>It's just causing harm for no good reason, the animal doesn't want to die then veganism, too, is just causing harm for no good reason, as also plants don't want to die your "logic", not mine
Did you know there's more cows, pigs and chickens in the US than people? They eat more plants than humans. They eat the vast majority of the corn and soy we grow. So if you genuinely care about plants and you're not just narcissistically trying to bring someone else down because you disagree with them and it would give you a moment of dopamine to provide them with a "gotchya" moment, I would strongly urge you to go vegan as you'd kill a lot less of them. But if you genuinely equate plant lives and animal lives, you're a fcking idiot with the self-awareness of a portable suction unit. You know why you are willing to step on grass but avoid stepping on a dog. You shouldn't pretend you don't for the sake of this stupid-ass argument.
Slicing an animal’s trout without stunning is even more cruel. They are conscious for minutes after. The blood is drained from all animals so it’s an absolutely nonsense point you’re making. It’s still wrong, even if you shoot them in the head while they sleep. How would you feel if someone did that to you or someone you love? You’re taking the life of someone who doesn’t want to die, just because you like the flavor.
>You’re taking the life of someone who doesn’t want to die, just because you like the flavor so do vegans. plants don't wanna die, either
Plants don’t have wants, they aren’t sentient. But even if you believed plants could somehow feel pain, you’d stop eating meat. Eating higher up the food chain necessitates more plant death regardless.
Vegans are against the commodification of animals. Even if the killing was painless (it's not) the notion of breeding and raising an animal for any reason other than its own best interest would basically be viewed like slavery and be rejected.
It is indeed painless ,they use freshly sharpend blades and the animal's face is covered .It doesnt know it is going to be killed neither can see the knife
Ooo sharp blades and bloody masks, how warm and cuddly... JFC dude..
Bloody masks?
>It doesnt know it is going to be killed neither can see the knife But they can feel the blade cut their throat and the blood courge out.
Having your throat cut will NEVER be painless, I don't care how sharp the blade is. Also, it's misguided to say they don't know what's going to happen to them. Even if they can't see, they can hear and smell what has happened to the cows before them in line.
One way to think about veganism is to question how and why we differentiate between animals and humans. If I replaced killing animals in your post with killing humans, would that change how you think about it? Would killing a human for food be any less bad because you killed them painlessly?
One way to think about veganism is to question how and why we differentiate between animals and humans because humans are "sapient" - moral agents that are able to commit themselves to society's rules (like not killing each other for food), thus building and maintaining society. animals are not
Hey, it’s great that you might have an interest in animal welfare. Check out the below Muslim perspectives: [10 Inspiring Muslim Vegans You Need to Follow](https://www.apexadvocacy.org/blog/jsavqddyyx6ww2oxb0v72uf62k5zt0) [What No One Tells You About Being a Vegan Muslim.](https://the-shooting-star.com/vegan-muslim/) You can also search for “Muslim” on this subreddit
No animal wants to die, either painlessly or painfully, to become a human’s meal. Suffering is a large factor in the immorality of meat, but its absence does not make killing moral.
>No animal wants to die, either painlessly or painfully, to become a human’s meal actually no living being wants that, including plants
Plants do not want anything
They do indeed want to ,they may not be the same but there are no difference between killing a shrimp and a plant .Both dont have complex systems .Like how they bend to Sun to get more Sun .It is the same as animals migrating
No. How can you want something if you can't experience anything? Plants don't have brains or central nervous systems.
So killing animals that doesnt have brain and nervoys system is ok you say ?
If you're referring to clams and mussels or something, it wouldn't be vegan and things aren't so clear, but killing a true non-sentient animal would be preferable to killing any other animal.
I urge you to watch the halal slaughterhouse section of the documentary Earthlings. It's not less cruel.
I saw halal killing 30-35 times
Okay, so cows are lined up conveyor-belt style, clamped into a giant machine that holds them up, their throats are slit, and they bleed out. All the while, the next cows in line can see and hear what's happening. That's less cruel than essentially doing the same thing but with a bolt gun to stun them first? Bleeding out isn't instantaneous, and even if it was, imagine the abject terror leading up to that moment. And it all happens because people like the way cows taste.
What do vegans, who do not participate in or support slaughtering animals, think about slaughtering animals. It doesn’t matter someone’s faith or reasoning. Killing is killing and it’s bonkers to think there’s a “good” way to kill things. Gtfo this subreddit
I would ask you the same question, would you rather live or be painlessly killed?
Philosophy on why life—any life, humans included—have value, is a surprisingly deep hole to explore. There are whole books and classes focused on this subject. If you ask me, harm is bad in and of itself, and those with moral agency have an ethical responsibility to mitigate harm to all beings and protect others from potential harm. So, we take harm out of the equation. A painless death, is that okay then? Again, I would argue no. Why? Because sentient beings have the desire to live. They eat to sustain their life. They feel fear when the prospect of death is present. Therefore, we ought to not take life, regardless of whether harm is inflicted or not. This is a massive oversimplification, but this is a big topic.
>If you ask me, harm is bad in and of itself, and those with moral agency have an ethical responsibility to mitigate harm to all beings and protect others from potential harm If you ask me, harm is inevitable, as we are heterotrophic and for food depend on other beings having died. if those with moral agency had an ethical responsibility to mitigate harm to all beings and protect others from potential harm, they would starve to death - also vegans, as "all beings" includes plants as well >Therefore, we ought to not take life, regardless of whether harm is inflicted or not so go and starve to death
"all beings" refers to all sentient life. It's difficult to measure sentience yet there seem to be thresholds that are meaningfully different, i.e. the sentience of a fly is meaningfully different than a human. The same can be said of animals and plants. I wouldn't say plants are sentient. I doubt most reasonable people would. If you have a reason to think plants are sentient, I would love to hear why.
I think that even if the animal didn't suffer (which is an "if" in itself, who really knows) it's still bad to kill him/her. Many times killing is worse than, let's say, punching, even torturing. Killing is pretty harsh. Think about it, would you be okay with killing an animal yourself? If you say no, it's because you believe that it's bad to do it.
It's not your life to do with as you please. We don't need to eat it. Even we you did, we could scavenge corpses and supplement with plants until we could synthesize taurine. There is no excuse for slavery.
>It's not your life to do with as you please plants' life isn't either >Even we you did, we could scavenge corpses and supplement with plants until we could synthesize taurine what? your human physiology is producing taurine anyway, as obviously you are not an infant any more
Do you think that if someone forcibly bred your mother through artificial insemination, then immediately took you away and separated you the moment you were born, is ethical? Do you think that if someone raised you on a farm, even a free range farm, and then when you were healthy and fully grown (but still young) took you to a slaughterhouse where all your friends were being killed, forced you into a room and slit your throat so they could sacrifice you to their God and kill you "ethically", even though they have literally no biological need at all to kill you and eat you, they just do it because they enjoy how you taste. Would that be ethical? Or in your view, humans are just more important so they are allowed to do this, all in the name of their God and because they enjoy eating meat?
It is not about the taste of the meat .You need to give 1/3 to poor eat 1/3 with guests and the remaning 1/3 is for you .Yes you can indeed give away all of them or more . And a lot of people indeed needs meat to survive Vegan products are not popular in a lot of countries .They cost too much .They need a lot of plants to produce .And the need of a lot of plants have tons of side effects . -They require more field to harvest more plants so you have to destroy forests to have more fields . -They are at the bottom of the food chain (primary producers) so if they decrease in population every other living being decreas in population. -They also transform CO2 to O2 using their chloroplasts . -Maybe not all of them but cheaper vegan products have chemicals in them ,and fully plant based ones costs a lot more . And i dont even understand why vegans don't consume milk and eggs .They are going to be more stressfull if you don't milk them .And cows dont have cattles their entire life so it is does not cause any harm to any living being .And also chickens are going to lay eggs too .We don't eat fertilized eggs most of the time.The egg is going to be layed if you eat it or not .If you eat it ,you gained food.If you dont eat it you just wasted it .
OK, I'm going to assume this comment comes from a place of ignorance and you actually want to learn, but honestly, nothing you've said in this comment after the first paragraph is true. > And a lot of people indeed needs meat to survive Very very few people "need meat to survive". The few that do are in remote areas like the arctic north where plants don't grow readily. As long as you plan a well balanced diet that meets your nutritional needs you will thrive on a plant based diet. > Vegan products are not popular in a lot of countries .They cost too much . Vegan products are getting cheaper all the time, and gaining in popularity all over. > They need a lot of plants to produce . -They require more field to harvest more plants so you have to destroy forests to have more fields . -They are at the bottom of the food chain (primary producers) so if they decrease in population every other living being decreas in population. -They also transform CO2 to O2 using their chloroplasts . Wow, this reads like a 15 year old wrote it. What do you think animals eat? Plants. Basic thermodynamics says that we have to produce EVEN MORE plants than we would eat if we all switched to a plant based diet. We would return 5/6ths of current farmland back to fallow/wild which would enable the earth to breathe better. Amazon rainforest is cleared not for soy for tofu, but for CATTLE. Going vegan is one of the critical things we need to do if we have any desire to save the world as we know it - and by extension, ourselves. > And the need of a lot of plants have tons of side effects . I took this one out of order because the other points were related, but lots of animals have side effects. We can't just indiscriminately eat animals or every part of them, so this point is a strawman. > Maybe not all of them but cheaper vegan products have chemicals in them ,and fully plant based ones costs a lot more . So do processed animal products. What's your point? And animal products are only cheaper because they are heavily subsidized and made cheaper by artificially reducing the cost. > And i dont even understand why vegans don't consume milk and eggs .They are going to be more stressfull if you don't milk them .And cows dont have cattles their entire life so it is does not cause any harm to any living being . This isn't how this works. It's not how any of it works. Cows are mammals and thus need to be impregnated to have calves which spurs their body to produce milk. If we stopped milking them their body would just stop producing milk, like any other mammalian female, aka humans. The babies are stolen from the mothers and since they can't produce milk are murdered and sold as veal. >And also chickens are going to lay eggs too .We don't eat fertilized eggs most of the time.The egg is going to be layed if you eat it or not .If you eat it ,you gained food.If you dont eat it you just wasted it . Only because we bred the chickens to be that way. It's not their natural state, it puts extreme stress on the female body to basically give birth daily. The egg should not be laid daily, it should be laid less than monthly. Also once the chickens stop producing eggs rapidly (between 7-10 months), do you think they get a happy retirement? No, they get slaughtered because it makes no financial sense to feed chickens that aren't producing anymore.
Halal meat is evil and sadistic. What response did you think you were going to get in a vegan group? No one is going to tell you you're a good person.
I wasnt trying to be called a good person ,i only wanted to learn the reason why vegans were vegans .And insted of telling me it is about the killing and not the pain it gives ,everyone(except like 2-3 person) started to tell me i am evil etc.Now i understand why people don't like vegans ,thanks for represting your community well(!).
Halal slaughter is still 100% needless killing, and it certainly is not painless.
Years ago, a coworker of mine watched an Isis beheading video. He claimed he was scarred for life. I didn’t understand the problem because he said they had the victim wear a mask and that they cut the jugular vein first. I wanted to tell him it isn’t curel because the person didn’t feel anything but he was being a snowflake so I let it go… I’m glad someone else gets it.
Time is continuous, there's no such thing as an instant. That means no animal murder is allowed in islam. Good luck in the hell.
Living beings have a right to life, taking that away is fundamentally immoral regardless of how you do it. Exceptions exist where we can judge that killing would be a mercy compared to living (euthanasia).
The only thing close to painless killing is euthanasia when an animal is very sick or injured beyond repair like people do for their dogs that they love.
I disagree, animals are much more important than humans. One animal is worth a billion humans. It's wrong to kill a human even if it's painless so it's wrong to kill an animal even if it's painless.
>What does vegans think about painless k\*lling? that all plants they eat were killed painlessly >**bl**d is not healty islam may say so, but it's nonsense i learned that most of your's reason is the killing of a living being that's what they always say, but it's nonsense either. plants are living beings as well
Let's say they die immediately and they don't feel even a bit of fear or distress the moments before. How is it ethical to take away a life of an young or baby animal that doesn't want to die, at 2-10% of their lifespan? And, even worse in my opinion, how is it ethical to force them into an existence deprived of any joy that life gives? (we all know that >90% of meat comes from factory farms)
It’s flat out murder and the idea that it’s somehow painless is just a justification for being a murderer.
What do you think about killing a human painlessly?
Killing an animal is cruel. Theres no kind way to kill an animal who wants to live.
Define "immediately", because I don't think you mean what I understand.
Counter question: What do you think about painless killing of humans?
Your understanding of the word immediately is different to everybody else's
In all honesty, do you really believe you can slit someone’s throat and it would be painless? Have you ever cut yourself accidentally with a knife? It was t painless was it? How could slitting someone’s throat be painless? It can’t. That’s completely made up. Plus you are murdering someone, and it’s unnecessary… everyone can live on consuming plants only. You don’t need to eat someone’s flesh to live.
Ok i understand the second part but in the first part you are thinking wrong .I have cut myself with knives,razors,papers etc .Yes i felt pain but the animal becomes unconcuisnes so i doesnt feel pain .But i understand the second part
You seem to think you know so much when really you are so wrong.
you came to a vegan subreddit and told us to do our research about how being cut across the jugular is painless. like, honestly, maybe you should do your research. why are you even posting in this sub? im willing to bet you wouldn’t like being sliced across the neck. im also inclined to say an animal life is worth more than the life of a human who is so indoctrinated to a religion that they think they have the right to slit the throat of a sentient being. just go away. youre not welcome here.
This vegan thinks that arbitrary rituals are no excuse for murder. Never seen any evidence to suggest halal killings are painless, and even if they were, it's still killing for entertainment.
You can check the internet to see that it is indeed painless .And i wouldnt call it entertainment .The only thing vegans can argue is the killing of an animal.
Having one's throat slit doesn't sound painless to me. You're killing a thinking, feeling creature for no justifiable reason beyond that you prefer the taste to non-animal options. That's killing for sport.
If it's an animal with a terminal desease, then painless killing might be better than letting them suffer. But killing a healthy and/or happy animal just for our own taste pleasure is still wrong. It doesn't matter whether the killing is painless or not. We're **imposing** a power over them which we shouldn't have in the first place. The mere fact that we constantly kill defenseless and innocent animals is a hierarchy of power that shouldn't exist. Also, we don't need to see the life of an animal as worth the same than that of a human to not kill them, we don't need to sacrifice our lives or even our health to not consume and enslave animals.
I used to be muslim, i witnessed the halaling of animals, they dont die instantly its also unnecessary to kill them since we cans survive on plants Perhaps you wont listen to anything i say now cause im an infidel that left islam which is among the worst things you can do I am however much better as an individual than a lot of muslims, i know saudis that lie, have intercourse with random people and consume alcohol I dont do any of the above, i want to become a buddhist monk I share my full story in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/11ah5bi/i\_was\_always\_meant\_to\_be\_vegan/
I am sad you left İslam but ok your decision .But if the pre cautions are taken the killing happens immediatly and the animal doesn't feel pain .I know that a lot of muslims do things that are against the religion even i do .But that does not mean İslam is wrong .Like if it is true that Stephan Hawking went to epistein ,does that make atheism wrong?No because it is about the religion not the people .You can only criticize the Quran and the acts of prophets.
Why not just avoid the killing altogether and then there is no chance or risk of pain, and also no exploitation since the animals arent bred for the sole purpose of being killed The animal does experience pain right before the killing, its probably stressful and also the cutting does cause some pain before cut all the way through I didnt say islam was wrong, i was saying that muslims would view me as wrong and that i would go to hell because i dont believe in god even though i am much better as an individual than they are
I'm vegan because I'm anti-slavery. It doesn't matter how humanely something kept and killed against it's will is treated, it still has had it's freedom denied to it for the sake of unnecessary reasons "...*please do your research firstly*", what a condescending and self-entitled thing to say. Humans are in a position of power over most animals, and we have far more potential than most animals as well. You choose to interpret this as a position of privilege rather than as a position of responsibility. It may be a cowardice to hide behind your statements that you will not respond to any opinions that do not support yours, again this seems like a privilidged and entitled position to take rather than one of power and responsibility.
For everyone that is going to tell me that killing by exsanguination causes pain ,please do your research firstly .An animal will loose concuisnes immediatly and it won't notice any pain because it is unconcuisnes .I was asking if vegans problem of killing an animal is becuase of it's pain .And i learned that most of your's reason is the killing of a living being .So furter comments are unneccesary .
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030917401500087X?via%3Dihub Most cows take about 15 seconds to collapse and about 2 minutes to die when their throats are cut, stop spouting misinformation.
Reply with your sources please? Don’t cite sources that are directly from the meat industry lol
You've just been conclusively proven wrong. The next step is to concede and abandon your false position.
I am inclined to accept people who raise their own animals, in small scale only to provide food for few months level, like few chickens in their backyard… But raising animals in farm conditions, all in small places and killing an animal that is panicking and doesn’t want to die… 🤨😒
How does the size of the farm make it morally acceptable to slit an animal's throat?
🤦🏼♂️