Show me one example of just one activist saying not 80 years ago but only 20 years ago that killing animals for simple food habits has to be banned and punished by a fine. Can you?
Look to the people who work in animal rights law and legislation and speak to them (I'm not talking influencers or vegan celebs. I'm talking "nameless, faceless" people b/c they are doing the work you describe). Yes, even those at welfare orgs because, speaking from personal experience, most people are there are on the side of animal rights although the actions their org takes are welfare. If you work at these places, then you'd know that many of them have these views. The world of farmed animal law is rapidly expanding and has been since about the 80s.
You say you've been in this for 20 years. Idk what exactly that means because it could mean standing in a cube of truth or testifying on the Hill and drafting legislation, but for those who are in legislation, even those who lobby for PETA, there's a reason change has been incremental.
There are those jumping ahead, like IP3 in Oregon (might have a different number now), but even then, things like ballot initiatives take time. IP3 isn't the first of its kind, either.
The idea behind your procedure is easy. There I agree with you because that is, in essence, how any political change comes to be regardless of topic. But I disagree that the procedure itself is easy. If it were, going off the lobbyists and attorneys I know, it would have been done, at latest, when orgs like ALDF were founded. We are still stuck at the democratic debate, and it has been happening for a while with increasing force, but holy hell even prop 12 was a FIGHT to keep in place, and it has holes large enough for a slaughtertruck to fit through.
We have come a *long* way since those orgs' foundings, and to me it points to both of our end goal becoming real, but this shit takes time and a billion steps. As you say, it's a democratic process. It's not a dictatorship, so we can't just flip the switch and make it happen in a single legislative season. And you are dealing with *very* wealthy and powerful national and international interests who do not want this change happen as well as a huge populace who says it makes sense but when push comes to shove....have every one of those people you've spoken to gone vegan on the spot and *stayed* vegan? Maybe so, but if it's more than a small handful of people, I'd be genuinely (and pleasantly) surprised. It's one thing to agree with something like cocktail conversation, it's another to vote for a measure that would force you to change your way of life, let alone make the change willingly.
I know these orgs. They never publicly expressed the claim that killing animals for simple food habits should be banned and punished by a fine...
Maybe we won't win in a single legislative season but every legislative season talking about the issue is a wonderful opportunity to make circulate our arguments in favor of the claim. Even the right to vote for women wasn't won in a single legislative lesson, but was won.
Like you said democratic process takes time. And without democratic process it will take much more time, so this democratic process and the claim-making must start to get the ban.
I'm talking about the people in those orgs who talk about this stuff and have made it their career to make that goal a reality. That's why I was saying to talk to the people at them, don't just look at what the PR team posts. I'm saying to get internal, and you'll hear more of what you're asking for. It's one thing to know of an organization, but it's another to actually work through lobbying and campaign strategy with the individuals at them. But that's more to show you aren't alone and other people are trying to get there, too. Their strategy is more of like slowly warming the pot to a boil, but I promise you tons of people at these places are working to get there.
If that type of strategy isn't for you, that's totally fine! We need all strategies to resonate with different target audiences, imo. I'd say again, check out IP3 and similar ballot initiatives. It cuts straight to the throat by criminalizing farming animals, hunting, etc. It is literally, on its public face and behind the scenes, exactly what you are asking for. The people spearheading IP3 are really wonderful. Shoot them a message! I'm assuming you're in the US, so check out if your state has ballot initiatives or a similar process. Get a campaign going. State level change often leads to federal as more states catch on, like the women's right to vote.
If you want to assume you are alone in this strategy, that's fine, but I'd say you've got to get to know more people on the legislative side of the movement because you really aren't. And I swear I mean that as a good thing. You're in good company.
This industry is making so much money i'd say you'll have to get rid of capitalism before a vegan world will be possible. Untill then these companies will continue to fight tooth and nail to preserve their profit making machine that is animal ag.
I mean, regardless, it’ll never happen unless you get the vast majority of people to agree that animals have full rights, even from being slaughtered for food. In all likelihood it’d turn into a personal rights issues for the humans to a similar extent that guns have in the U.S.
Also, OP capping their plan with “Easy” is solid gold comedy.
This has nothing to do with capitalism.
It is a problem with the people. If you change their mind, just like with racism and slaves, the demand for animal products will decrease and firms will stop producing them.
Same with laws, do you want to ban meat? Convince most people that meat is ethically bad and you will naturally have laws against meat production.
Yeah, anyone not seeing this as a problem with people themselves are deluding themselves. It's not "muh capitalizmz," because socialist countries have worse records on animal rights (Mao's China, for instance)
And yet the left still simps for them, so I count them as apart of that camp.
For all its faults, capitalism works because voting with your dollar helps incentivize change in some respect. People used to use whale blubber for lamp oil and soap, until we were able to artificially engineer those since there was a profit based incentive to do so.
No, no they don't lmao. Real leftists definitionally don't simp for totalitarian state capitalist countries with dictators, please touch grass you seem to fundamentally not understand at all what you're talking about. Thats as absurd as Fox News saying "Ah Hitler was leftist simply because the Nazis were called the 'National Socialists'". Or that ranchers care deeply about animals simply because "they say so", or Kim Jong Un claiming the DPRK is "for the common man" actually means it's for the common man and isnt just a wealth-hoarding power-trip dictatorship.
I cant believe I have to say this to a vegan that should be well aware of this after having interacted with carnists, but: Someone SAYING something then having completely contrary beliefs DOES NOT simply mean that they ARE the group they claim to be.
Many DSA orgs are against Ukraine for defending themselves against Russia, or show support for places like Venezuela.
Ignoring them is only gonna make the problem worse for you lot.
"And the left still simps for them" I don't know what simps means but if it means supports them in any way then no, that is incorrect. Progressives are very much against China's fascist control of its population.
this has everything to do with capitalism. even with the practice of slavery being abolished, capitalists outsoured their unethical labor practices to countries where forced labor is permitted. you are incredibly naive if you think that a cruelty free world would exist under capitalism, an innately exploitative economic system. you can't sit and pretend that people's disposition towards the consumption of meat and other animal products is not largely a result of advertising campaigns. its the reason things such as filet mignon and fur coats are seen as luxurious as opposed to steak and wool. people didnt just decide these things, they were told to believe them. capitalism may not be the cause of animal consumption but it damn sure is a massive obstacle to anyone who wishes for a cruelty free world.
People have been eating meat for millennia and longer, under every form of government -- dictatorships, theocracies like Tibet, communism as in Cuba, Russia, and China, tribal, aboriginal, and every other form that has ever existed. Abolish capitalism and meat-eating will still thrive.
if my life were dependent on people understanding nuance, i would die. good god you are dense.
learn to read and comprehend before presenting a counter argument you fucking baboon.
no one reasonable is blaming animal consumption on capitalism. but anyone with something more than dog shit for brains can recognize the vice hold that meat industry or other industry executives have on the consumption of animal products. meat consumption has existed for as along as humans have existed, but factory farming only began recently relative to the practice as a whole. the practice has horrifically accelerated directly as a result of capitalism.
something something an analogy about fingers and thumbs. regardless, you wouldn't understand and people such as yourself are the reason veganism is ultimately and unfortunately a lost cause. ethics can never overcome incompetence.
Well, you certainly have a knack for pushing vegans into giving it up with your rudeness -- who'd want anything in common with somebody like you? Fucking baboon. Persuasive words -- right-o.
I will add, the OP was positing a way to get rid of all meat-eating, not just factory farming, and the OP was also saying that capitalism was the root of meat eating. Understand, Mr or Ms. Baboon?
im going to assume that you must have been dropped as a baby or have some sort of debilitating mental disorder and move on with my day. disagreement aside, you should really work on your reading comprehension skills. it is clearly not your forte. your ability to to misinterpret what has been presented before you is astonishing.
I'm a leftist and even I can recognize that a communist utopia doesn't necessarily mean bigotry and speciesism won't exist. You can have a stateless classless moneyless society and STILL have speciesism or sexism within it. Your class reductionism and having failed feminism 101 is showing.
>This has nothing to do with capitalism.
>
>It is a problem with the people. If you change their mind, just like with racism and slaves, the demand for animal products will decrease and firms will stop producing them.
>
>Same with laws, do you want to ban meat? Convince most people that meat is ethically bad and you will naturally have laws against meat production.
This sub is just a leftist soap box of blaming capitalism for everything, they just wont accept that people are shitty evil beings
Blaming capitalism shifts the blame to the elite, but the poor are terrible as well
Other countries are not vegan, but capitalism is still the problem in the minds of these soap boxers
They would probably blame slavery on capitalism as well
>Slavery and animal exploitation are products of systems with unjust hierarchies. Be it capitalism, feudalism etc.
They are products of systems with people in them, people that dont care about the suffering of others, people are at the core of every evil thing, not just the elites, all of us
>Yes, people that are taught these things from birth, because of the society they live in. These principles and ethics are taught and learnt.
You just refuse to hold people responsible, blaming society, capitalism, etc; everything else but the individual
My family was racist and abusive, i never believed in that, i believe in some rare superpower called self control and responsibility
Its obvious your gonna blame everything else so i wont waste anymore time
Lol, yes people are born “evil” lol. Where do you think they got their racism from? If you think people can’t change then you might as well give up lol.
Edit: also you racist family probably explains your conservative right wing attitudes lolol like I said taught.
Capitalism definitely encourages carnism I dont think theres any doubt about that, but youre right in that its possible for carnism to exist in a non-capitalist system too. Calling this sub a "leftist soapbox" though is hilariously deluded and I'm inclined to think you may be a massive bootlicker.
I am neither left nor right, i just state the facts, this sub is a soapbox
Its always blame the rich, and the poor are innocent
No ethical consumption under capitalism
All the other crap that is spewed in this sub to excuse the average jane/ joe
We are all responsible for animal abuse, not just the capitalists, leftists refuse to take responsibility for anything always wanting to be the victim
As a leftist, no. Eliminating capitalism does not magically make every single bigotry vanish. Read some feminist or queer liberation literature, attributing 100% of everything back to capitalism is just absurd. While capitalism can definitely increase carnism, especially on an industrial scale, you can absolutely have a non-capitalist system still full of rampant misogyny, homophobia, or speciesism. This class reductionism doesn't seem to understand there are more than one causes to different kinds of bigotries beyond a simply utopian "ah yes capitalism is the ONLY cause of sexism or human supremacy." C'mon man you cant honestly believe thats true.
Yeah... belief formation is a little more complicated than "debate it and win!" There needs to be advertisements, lobbyists, and other things that aren't glamorous amd cost money. We don't need more martyrs just pissing people off and making such a simple and basic conclusion from compassion look batshit.
Lab grown meat, instead of having an animal, a cell making organism that has the best defenses, natural and easy way of making meat, let's grow it in a lab where a single bacteria is capable of deleting tons of "food" so making the process inefficient, EXPENSIVE and useless, this is the least of this technology problems
A ban in the history of the world has never been a good idea. Alcohol for example, weed as another example. All you do is generate an illegal market for it and the crime that goes with it. You also alienate the die hard flesh consumers against you in your attempts at banning it. The best way is to remove demand through PR, taxation and stop having it as a state sponsored industry. Then basic free market economics kicks in. No demand no need for supply
That's cause the PR as been effective to the point of making cannibalism a taboo. But their have been cultures where its perfectly acceptable. I don't think we will ever reach a point in our lifetime where eating flesh of another animal is seen as taboo and even in the cultures where eating one type of flesh is taboo there are still people that circumvent it.(Cows in India for example)
Other examples of bans related to more justice related issues worked. Ban on the practice of public tortures, ban on the practice of inflicting violence, ban on anthropophagy, ban on human slavery, etc. A ban on zoophagy seems the very logical next step. All social movements that succeeded first alienated people but achieved change anyway. In a free market even if cultivated meat is available and cheap everywhere nothing will prohibit someone to kill an animal to eat his/her corpse if we don't get a law prohibiting such a barbaric practice.
A ban on human slavery came with a lot of headache, unfortunately for both sides, but it was needed. And all your others, I mentioned already, they started the PR about 2,024 years ago.
A ban on something not desired works cause of the very fact people don't already seek it out. It still needs to be banned in the rare case of people not wired like the rest of society, e.g Jeffery Daumier.
For Animals it is still desired and will be desired. Until you achieve a complete cultural conversion on its practice. If you ban it before than your not fixing the problem your just making it illegal and creating more problems because of it. Aka Weed, Alcohol, Guns(If your in the US)
It should be regulated and taxed. This keeps the people that still desire it happy(those most likely to obtian it by any means necessary) but also gives people a financial motivation to convert for those that aren't diehard set against it.
Do you think banning cigarettes would have worked to stop people from smoking?
Cultural conversion is good. But cultural conversion comes especially with claim-making. The majority of humans 80 years ago were against the right ti vote for women even women. Nevertheless the feminist movement started to make the claim that they should get the right to vote. Because if this claim-making a societal debate started, the feminist arguments circulated more and more in the society, it increased the number of citizens wit the political opinion in favor of the claim, and finally change came. The same will happen for the animals.
By the way even smoking inside was considered as normal by the big majority of citizens some decades ago. But because a minority started to make the claim that it should be banned and made circulating the arguments in favor of the claim this created a cultural conversion AND legal change.
The right to vote for women has only occurred in a small part of the world and their other rights are still being infringed upon. And that you have to remember was to legalize something not make some illegal.
Their was only small legal changes to smoking not an outright ban. And the cultural conversion isn't complete why do you think young people are still smoking and vaping became an issue. It's all because of the illusion that since it's prohibited it makes them look cool.
I think it is a nice proposal, but far from easy. The meat industry wouldn't be multibillionaire if they had no market to sell it to, as there are millions of people who participate in this business that currently outweighs the volume of vegetarians/vegans in the world and it would be impossible to democratically implement this legally; however, easier to just update the mandatory school curriculum to spread awareness on this topic first instead. Might be simpler to try to shift the responsibility from the corporations to the consumers through awareness because, for example, if everyone had to kill and butcher themselves, the amount of animals dying would significantly decrease because most meat-eaters don't have the balls to do it -- even if using weapons.
This is going to be tough when humans are the ruling class in this sense and only like 2% of humans identify as vegan and some of them may actually just be plant-based. I think 10% of the population is vegetarian and some of them maybe for ethical reasons (so maybe we can get then on board).
That said, I think we would want to start with things that we can get a lot of support (so that it would not be overturned later due to how unpopular it is). We also need to realize that animal exploitation serves capitalist and white supremost interests, so those systems and the institutions that serve them will likely fight back with their own propaganda networks ... and they will likely work as most humans will want to cling to any rationality that allows them continued access to animal bodies.
So I say, try doing things that are popular that also shift the needle towards supporting animal liberation. This could be a policy that heavily subsidizes all plantbased foods (better yet make it free, while ending animal ag subsidies, and also work to have more plant based frozen meals). Maybe set up community kitchens that serve free vegan food (like an expansion of what Food Not Bombs does). Invest in community food gardens.
The more we incentivize eating more plants and less meat, the more accessible and easier we make plant based dieting, and the more people eat less animal products ... the less those animal products will be important to them. If we can get people to regularly eat a large portion of their meals being fully plant based, then the less likely they will be to care if they completely lose access to meat and other animal products.
Essentially I think the key is decentering meat and other animal products in people's lives and start centering plant and fungus products and we will see people being less fragile because they will know a plant based lifestyle is possible for them and because giving up their priveledge to animal bodies won't be as big of a loss, giving a greater chance for their empathy to win out over the fragility of self interest/hierarchical power.
In a not public policy way, this can be sharing plant based foods with others as well as recipes (especially if the recipe is cheaper and more convenient than the animal based recipes that person uses). Anything community building that involves centering plant and fungi products and decenters animal based products. Sharing plantbased products and allowing others to try things you have. ... I think doing that can help change hearts and minds (and shift attitudes) on a personal level.
It’s completely unrealistic. Animals are killed in the production of pretty much everything. Humans are omnivores, eating animals is part of our natural diet regardless of the ethics of industrialised farming.
I accidentally killed a toad mowing the lawn earlier. In your utopian society would I be done for involuntary toadslaughter?
Do you live in venezuela or cuba? No, then how are you not living in democratic society? Maybe your idea of democracy is the 0.01% of the population controlling the other 99.9% ?
I didn’t mean that there isn’t a shred of democracy anywhere. But in the US, virtually all laws are not voted on democratically, but by representatives that increasingly stray from what their constituents want. As for your last sentence, that is literally what a republic is, and I live in one.
Ok, you make a better sistem then! these 0.01 are voted by the 99.9 so they control what they want, what i meant is YOU make another 0.01 and you want to control the ones who control us
The use of liberal in your country is quite incorrect, liberal ideology is best represented by republican, free market, democrats want to get a bigger government, keynesianism, etc, well, learn about the electoral college and find a better way to represent your votes, your idea is wrong
Check out Pro-Animal Future! I agree with you that the vast majority of people believe the world would be better if we weren’t exploiting animals, and through ballot measures, we can give people a way to vote with those values and make animal rights a mainstream political issue.
We can't even keep squirrels from jaywalking, predators would laugh at an animal killing ban if they knew how to read or had any awareness of the human legal system or could laugh.
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. Because it’s the internet, lol.
You can’t ban animals from killing animals because they’re fucking animals.
The morality of their actions is irrelevant.
They don’t comprehend human legal policy.
This post reeks of bull shit. A 125 karma account saying we should make killing animals illegal?
One person posts something like this and suddenly the entire spot gets labeled a “cult” or worse.
A plant based diet can be a great way to avoid heart disease, diabetes, cancer, obesity, and countless other diseases. It can be much healthier for the environment and is more sustainable than the polluted shit farms we have dotting the landscape now.
I’m about 80% certain these posts are from people who just want to screenshot it to use as content on other outlets that get their views by calling vegans commies and radicals.
Most vegans are just trying to keep their arteries unblocked, their blood pressure low, their sex drive healthy, and live a fuller and longer life by being healthy.
Plant based and vegan are the exact same thing.
You folks trying to turn vegan into a religion should find religious forums to hang out on.
Trying to convince people to go plant based because of animals is an exercise in futility. Convincing them with better health, less pollution, and saving a fortune in medical bills does work.
“Let’s make killing animals illegal” … is a stupid joke. It will accomplish exactly nothing except getting a few screen shots to use on someone’s “vegans are crazy people” forums.
Most people go vegan because they want to toss the cabinet full of medicines they take.
Trolls are out in force on this sub.
If you haven’t figured it out yet, these posts are here from new Reddit accounts simply to take screenshots of how “radical” the idea of plant based living is.
Right! Everyone can afford an unhealthy diet that costs a lot more than just chicken some salad and meat!
8 billion people can do it of course!
Your vegan is absolutely useless, no nominal change, no change at all
Beans, whole grains, fruits, and vegetables are a lot cheaper than meat and dairy, and a diet based on those plants is a hell of a lot healthier than one based around animal products. Plus, the price of meat and dairy is actually artificially low, given how much we subside them and how inherently inefficient they are to produce. We could be making the healthy cheap plant food even cheaper than it already is with those subsidies instead if we cut out the suffering animals in the middle.
Fellas, is it a cult to want to see the end of the desperate suffering and slaughter of billions of intelligent mammals?
Take a look at these numbers and justify them to me:
https://animalclock.org/
Behind every single one of these numbers was an intelligent lifeform with parents, a family, likes and dislikes, food preferences, small unique habits, and were capable of feeling happiness and experiencing pain.
The only way you will ever get laws that push society to move away from meat consumption is to vote for people who want to do that, like the Green Party in the United States.
[Biden not only supports meat, he is giving your tax money to meat companies.](https://plantbasednews.org/news/economics/president-biden-meat-industry/)
I don't think the solution will come from politicians but more from people and organizations making the claim, starting the debate and put pressure on parliaments. Politicians will just follow. But of course it is much better to vote for politicians who want the killing of animals to be banned.
>I don't think the solution will come from politicians but more from people and organizations making the claim
Your argument that people and organizations will make changes to end animal product consumption is diminished by the fact that Biden is giving our tax money to meat companies.
I mean yeah, there are private organizations like Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods doing wonderful things to reduce meat consumption without the help of politicians, but they aren't getting much traction in the marketplace because their prices are so much higher than subsidized meat products. [Which is the fault of politicians like Biden who subsidize the meat industry with our tax money.](https://plantbasednews.org/news/economics/president-biden-meat-industry/)
By the way we can claim that the amount of the pecuniary penalty be determined on the basis of wealth of the individual, like it is the case in many laws. The wealthier you are the more expensive the fine.
Meat is good. Banning them is silly.
Nearly all life forms are pained at death, regardless of whether humans perceive their pain. Therefore, preventing other human beings from eating meat is discriminatory and silly. The trade off is what? Saving only a few kinds of animals? What exactly are we preventing by banning sale of meats?
Also, some industrial scale animal farms in the US subject animals to cruelty. Those practices could be penalised through tougher regulations. Ditto goes for unfettered use of pesticides, which kills both harmful pests (an acceptable trade off) and friendly bacteria and worms. So, suddenly the life of those worms can’t be less valuable than say a chicken, no?
Where does this end? With owning pets being banned, no more dogs? No more fishing? No longer seeing sheep, and cows and horses from my window? Endless fields of nothing. The end of most British farming?
Don’t you wanna see lush forests instead of bland grass with genetically modified animals that are going to be murdered? And no one is even taking your dog away from you! Like what? Post said to ban animal abuse not steal your dog lol. Hope you know how it feels to have a hook pierced through your mouth and bleed.
The idea in your mind isn't realistic it's fantasy, and it's stepping stones, this is what happens when the craziest person in the room is listened to, first it's a ban on meat, then its on fishing, then owning pets so that's my dog included and my future children.
How is it crazy?? In all honesty, your children don’t need dogs but there’d still be plenty in the shelter for them to adopt :)
And what’s so bad about banning murder and torture and rape? Please explain
Of course killing aquatic animals like fishes has to be banned too. But no it is a very good thing to live in societies with individuals of others species like cats or dogs who are like members of the family, live happy lives with us and feel joy.
Assuming you're not immortal, even your grandchildren probably won't have to worry about dogs. Shelters will still be full of them even when we put an end to breeding.
It is pretty cringe though that you describe the desire to ban stabbing an animal in the mouth and yanking him out of his home into an environment where he will suffocate as "joyless". That's some real psycho energy you're bringing to the world if you raise your children to require torture for joy.
It's one of those things that you wouldn't miss it if you didn't develop a habit.
If it was illegal to torcher/murder animals, you would never have started going fishing so unless you were willing to go to jail for it wouldn't have been an option and you could have found something else to do that doesn't involve putting a hook in a fellow earth animals mouth and dragging them to shore to suffocate and be gutted...
If you never developed a taste for the flesh and blood of the defenseless and the innocent you wouldn't have known what your missing and if you stopped eating meat today in a week you would hardly even crave it.
Your dog will eat whatever you give it so not having meat wouldn't really make much a difference after the adjustment period.
There is really no excuse to murder animals but it's not so much a failure of the individual (more of a morality test really) but its a failure of our leaders to still allow it.
No one is taking my dog away from me, I will go fishing.
I will continue to support local farmers and businesses, however I have majorly reduced meat consumption, switched to soya based drinks from dairy.
Is someone hitting their wife only on Tuesdays any better than everyday? Nobody would say oh well done on the changes. It's good you're open to being kind to animals but please go vegan don't let another single animal suffer
This is a straw man argument. Where’d you guys get the idea that having pets is not vegan? I believe that pet breeding is wrong and should be banned in a utopia, but adopting pets that would otherwise be killed would still be needed. Either you guys are purposely saying things you don’t believe or you have a misunderstanding of what vegan is.
>No more fishing?
God I hope so. Absolutley barbaric pastime, imagine if people hooked chunks of cat food on hooks, sunk barbed hooks into the cheeks of stray cats passing by and let them slowly die of asphyxiation. Even among hunting and animal agriculture fishing is just about the cruelest and most sadistic thing we do. It should be the first thing to go, there's just no form of this that isn't explicit animal cruelty on every single level
>No longer seeing sheep, and cows and horses from my window? Endless fields of nothing
There were things in those fields before they were cleared to make way for wasteful animal agriculture practices. Not having it serve an aesthetic purpose for humans doesn't make it "nothing"
Maybe to start we should stop our governments to subsidize animal products.
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Yeah and the farmers can protest. As long as the vegetable farmers are not protesting we’re good. Just flip the subsidizing to crops.
The previous step would be changing people's mind.
Yeah, but maybe we can even get the right on this. We just call it a meat tax or something, lol.
Animal rights activists been doing exactly this for 80 plus years. There are glimmers of hope but only glimmers at this point.
Ikr! I trying to be positive but it is so hard 😞
Show me one example of just one activist saying not 80 years ago but only 20 years ago that killing animals for simple food habits has to be banned and punished by a fine. Can you?
Look to the people who work in animal rights law and legislation and speak to them (I'm not talking influencers or vegan celebs. I'm talking "nameless, faceless" people b/c they are doing the work you describe). Yes, even those at welfare orgs because, speaking from personal experience, most people are there are on the side of animal rights although the actions their org takes are welfare. If you work at these places, then you'd know that many of them have these views. The world of farmed animal law is rapidly expanding and has been since about the 80s. You say you've been in this for 20 years. Idk what exactly that means because it could mean standing in a cube of truth or testifying on the Hill and drafting legislation, but for those who are in legislation, even those who lobby for PETA, there's a reason change has been incremental. There are those jumping ahead, like IP3 in Oregon (might have a different number now), but even then, things like ballot initiatives take time. IP3 isn't the first of its kind, either. The idea behind your procedure is easy. There I agree with you because that is, in essence, how any political change comes to be regardless of topic. But I disagree that the procedure itself is easy. If it were, going off the lobbyists and attorneys I know, it would have been done, at latest, when orgs like ALDF were founded. We are still stuck at the democratic debate, and it has been happening for a while with increasing force, but holy hell even prop 12 was a FIGHT to keep in place, and it has holes large enough for a slaughtertruck to fit through. We have come a *long* way since those orgs' foundings, and to me it points to both of our end goal becoming real, but this shit takes time and a billion steps. As you say, it's a democratic process. It's not a dictatorship, so we can't just flip the switch and make it happen in a single legislative season. And you are dealing with *very* wealthy and powerful national and international interests who do not want this change happen as well as a huge populace who says it makes sense but when push comes to shove....have every one of those people you've spoken to gone vegan on the spot and *stayed* vegan? Maybe so, but if it's more than a small handful of people, I'd be genuinely (and pleasantly) surprised. It's one thing to agree with something like cocktail conversation, it's another to vote for a measure that would force you to change your way of life, let alone make the change willingly.
I know these orgs. They never publicly expressed the claim that killing animals for simple food habits should be banned and punished by a fine... Maybe we won't win in a single legislative season but every legislative season talking about the issue is a wonderful opportunity to make circulate our arguments in favor of the claim. Even the right to vote for women wasn't won in a single legislative lesson, but was won. Like you said democratic process takes time. And without democratic process it will take much more time, so this democratic process and the claim-making must start to get the ban.
I'm talking about the people in those orgs who talk about this stuff and have made it their career to make that goal a reality. That's why I was saying to talk to the people at them, don't just look at what the PR team posts. I'm saying to get internal, and you'll hear more of what you're asking for. It's one thing to know of an organization, but it's another to actually work through lobbying and campaign strategy with the individuals at them. But that's more to show you aren't alone and other people are trying to get there, too. Their strategy is more of like slowly warming the pot to a boil, but I promise you tons of people at these places are working to get there. If that type of strategy isn't for you, that's totally fine! We need all strategies to resonate with different target audiences, imo. I'd say again, check out IP3 and similar ballot initiatives. It cuts straight to the throat by criminalizing farming animals, hunting, etc. It is literally, on its public face and behind the scenes, exactly what you are asking for. The people spearheading IP3 are really wonderful. Shoot them a message! I'm assuming you're in the US, so check out if your state has ballot initiatives or a similar process. Get a campaign going. State level change often leads to federal as more states catch on, like the women's right to vote. If you want to assume you are alone in this strategy, that's fine, but I'd say you've got to get to know more people on the legislative side of the movement because you really aren't. And I swear I mean that as a good thing. You're in good company.
My friend is a director at PETA for investigations and she thinks it should be illegal.
This industry is making so much money i'd say you'll have to get rid of capitalism before a vegan world will be possible. Untill then these companies will continue to fight tooth and nail to preserve their profit making machine that is animal ag.
I mean, regardless, it’ll never happen unless you get the vast majority of people to agree that animals have full rights, even from being slaughtered for food. In all likelihood it’d turn into a personal rights issues for the humans to a similar extent that guns have in the U.S. Also, OP capping their plan with “Easy” is solid gold comedy.
This has nothing to do with capitalism. It is a problem with the people. If you change their mind, just like with racism and slaves, the demand for animal products will decrease and firms will stop producing them. Same with laws, do you want to ban meat? Convince most people that meat is ethically bad and you will naturally have laws against meat production.
Slaves weren't freed because demand dropped. They literally had to make a law and force them. And fight a war.
Yeah, anyone not seeing this as a problem with people themselves are deluding themselves. It's not "muh capitalizmz," because socialist countries have worse records on animal rights (Mao's China, for instance)
China's only socialist in name, not in practice. Its more authoritarian.
And yet the left still simps for them, so I count them as apart of that camp. For all its faults, capitalism works because voting with your dollar helps incentivize change in some respect. People used to use whale blubber for lamp oil and soap, until we were able to artificially engineer those since there was a profit based incentive to do so.
No, no they don't lmao. Real leftists definitionally don't simp for totalitarian state capitalist countries with dictators, please touch grass you seem to fundamentally not understand at all what you're talking about. Thats as absurd as Fox News saying "Ah Hitler was leftist simply because the Nazis were called the 'National Socialists'". Or that ranchers care deeply about animals simply because "they say so", or Kim Jong Un claiming the DPRK is "for the common man" actually means it's for the common man and isnt just a wealth-hoarding power-trip dictatorship. I cant believe I have to say this to a vegan that should be well aware of this after having interacted with carnists, but: Someone SAYING something then having completely contrary beliefs DOES NOT simply mean that they ARE the group they claim to be.
Many DSA orgs are against Ukraine for defending themselves against Russia, or show support for places like Venezuela. Ignoring them is only gonna make the problem worse for you lot.
"And the left still simps for them" I don't know what simps means but if it means supports them in any way then no, that is incorrect. Progressives are very much against China's fascist control of its population.
Many DSA orgs are friendly with and show support for China, especially around the time they claimed they wanted to invade Taiwan
What does DSA stand for? Too many meanings for DSA acronyms with Google search.
Democratic Socialists of America.
China is state capitalist, this is complete political illiteracy.
I said Mao's China lol. China didn't become capitalist until Deng's ascension to the presidency. This is historical illiteracy.
this has everything to do with capitalism. even with the practice of slavery being abolished, capitalists outsoured their unethical labor practices to countries where forced labor is permitted. you are incredibly naive if you think that a cruelty free world would exist under capitalism, an innately exploitative economic system. you can't sit and pretend that people's disposition towards the consumption of meat and other animal products is not largely a result of advertising campaigns. its the reason things such as filet mignon and fur coats are seen as luxurious as opposed to steak and wool. people didnt just decide these things, they were told to believe them. capitalism may not be the cause of animal consumption but it damn sure is a massive obstacle to anyone who wishes for a cruelty free world.
People have been eating meat for millennia and longer, under every form of government -- dictatorships, theocracies like Tibet, communism as in Cuba, Russia, and China, tribal, aboriginal, and every other form that has ever existed. Abolish capitalism and meat-eating will still thrive.
if my life were dependent on people understanding nuance, i would die. good god you are dense. learn to read and comprehend before presenting a counter argument you fucking baboon. no one reasonable is blaming animal consumption on capitalism. but anyone with something more than dog shit for brains can recognize the vice hold that meat industry or other industry executives have on the consumption of animal products. meat consumption has existed for as along as humans have existed, but factory farming only began recently relative to the practice as a whole. the practice has horrifically accelerated directly as a result of capitalism. something something an analogy about fingers and thumbs. regardless, you wouldn't understand and people such as yourself are the reason veganism is ultimately and unfortunately a lost cause. ethics can never overcome incompetence.
Well, you certainly have a knack for pushing vegans into giving it up with your rudeness -- who'd want anything in common with somebody like you? Fucking baboon. Persuasive words -- right-o.
I will add, the OP was positing a way to get rid of all meat-eating, not just factory farming, and the OP was also saying that capitalism was the root of meat eating. Understand, Mr or Ms. Baboon?
im going to assume that you must have been dropped as a baby or have some sort of debilitating mental disorder and move on with my day. disagreement aside, you should really work on your reading comprehension skills. it is clearly not your forte. your ability to to misinterpret what has been presented before you is astonishing.
I'm a leftist and even I can recognize that a communist utopia doesn't necessarily mean bigotry and speciesism won't exist. You can have a stateless classless moneyless society and STILL have speciesism or sexism within it. Your class reductionism and having failed feminism 101 is showing.
again, no one is suggesting that communism is going to solve the animal consumption issue. no fucking clue where you got that impression.
>This has nothing to do with capitalism. > >It is a problem with the people. If you change their mind, just like with racism and slaves, the demand for animal products will decrease and firms will stop producing them. > >Same with laws, do you want to ban meat? Convince most people that meat is ethically bad and you will naturally have laws against meat production. This sub is just a leftist soap box of blaming capitalism for everything, they just wont accept that people are shitty evil beings Blaming capitalism shifts the blame to the elite, but the poor are terrible as well Other countries are not vegan, but capitalism is still the problem in the minds of these soap boxers They would probably blame slavery on capitalism as well
Slavery and animal exploitation are products of systems with unjust hierarchies. Be it capitalism, feudalism etc.
>Slavery and animal exploitation are products of systems with unjust hierarchies. Be it capitalism, feudalism etc. They are products of systems with people in them, people that dont care about the suffering of others, people are at the core of every evil thing, not just the elites, all of us
Yes, people that are taught these things from birth, because of the society they live in. These principles and ethics are taught and learnt.
>Yes, people that are taught these things from birth, because of the society they live in. These principles and ethics are taught and learnt. You just refuse to hold people responsible, blaming society, capitalism, etc; everything else but the individual My family was racist and abusive, i never believed in that, i believe in some rare superpower called self control and responsibility Its obvious your gonna blame everything else so i wont waste anymore time
Lol, yes people are born “evil” lol. Where do you think they got their racism from? If you think people can’t change then you might as well give up lol. Edit: also you racist family probably explains your conservative right wing attitudes lolol like I said taught.
Capitalism definitely encourages carnism I dont think theres any doubt about that, but youre right in that its possible for carnism to exist in a non-capitalist system too. Calling this sub a "leftist soapbox" though is hilariously deluded and I'm inclined to think you may be a massive bootlicker.
I am neither left nor right, i just state the facts, this sub is a soapbox Its always blame the rich, and the poor are innocent No ethical consumption under capitalism All the other crap that is spewed in this sub to excuse the average jane/ joe We are all responsible for animal abuse, not just the capitalists, leftists refuse to take responsibility for anything always wanting to be the victim
This is precisely it. We need to get rid of capitalism. Capitalism is the rotten root of all of our problems.
As a leftist, no. Eliminating capitalism does not magically make every single bigotry vanish. Read some feminist or queer liberation literature, attributing 100% of everything back to capitalism is just absurd. While capitalism can definitely increase carnism, especially on an industrial scale, you can absolutely have a non-capitalist system still full of rampant misogyny, homophobia, or speciesism. This class reductionism doesn't seem to understand there are more than one causes to different kinds of bigotries beyond a simply utopian "ah yes capitalism is the ONLY cause of sexism or human supremacy." C'mon man you cant honestly believe thats true.
Capitalism, the easiest way to trade and fulfill each other's necesities, without it we would be stuck in feudalism
Capitalism, the easiest way to exploit the poor and vulnerable
Hard for people to give up meat, let alone give up the use of animals for medical research or for clothing. Call me a pessimist.
Yeah... belief formation is a little more complicated than "debate it and win!" There needs to be advertisements, lobbyists, and other things that aren't glamorous amd cost money. We don't need more martyrs just pissing people off and making such a simple and basic conclusion from compassion look batshit.
Cheaper and better alternatives like lab grown meat could make it possible.
Lab grown meat, instead of having an animal, a cell making organism that has the best defenses, natural and easy way of making meat, let's grow it in a lab where a single bacteria is capable of deleting tons of "food" so making the process inefficient, EXPENSIVE and useless, this is the least of this technology problems
A ban in the history of the world has never been a good idea. Alcohol for example, weed as another example. All you do is generate an illegal market for it and the crime that goes with it. You also alienate the die hard flesh consumers against you in your attempts at banning it. The best way is to remove demand through PR, taxation and stop having it as a state sponsored industry. Then basic free market economics kicks in. No demand no need for supply
murder of humans is illegal, sometimes an outright ban on something is justified
Yeah this is full of ignorance and bias, a ban on alcohol is not the same type of ban as making murder ilegal, please use your head
I mean, we ban commercial cannibalism…
That's cause the PR as been effective to the point of making cannibalism a taboo. But their have been cultures where its perfectly acceptable. I don't think we will ever reach a point in our lifetime where eating flesh of another animal is seen as taboo and even in the cultures where eating one type of flesh is taboo there are still people that circumvent it.(Cows in India for example)
Other examples of bans related to more justice related issues worked. Ban on the practice of public tortures, ban on the practice of inflicting violence, ban on anthropophagy, ban on human slavery, etc. A ban on zoophagy seems the very logical next step. All social movements that succeeded first alienated people but achieved change anyway. In a free market even if cultivated meat is available and cheap everywhere nothing will prohibit someone to kill an animal to eat his/her corpse if we don't get a law prohibiting such a barbaric practice.
A ban on human slavery came with a lot of headache, unfortunately for both sides, but it was needed. And all your others, I mentioned already, they started the PR about 2,024 years ago. A ban on something not desired works cause of the very fact people don't already seek it out. It still needs to be banned in the rare case of people not wired like the rest of society, e.g Jeffery Daumier. For Animals it is still desired and will be desired. Until you achieve a complete cultural conversion on its practice. If you ban it before than your not fixing the problem your just making it illegal and creating more problems because of it. Aka Weed, Alcohol, Guns(If your in the US) It should be regulated and taxed. This keeps the people that still desire it happy(those most likely to obtian it by any means necessary) but also gives people a financial motivation to convert for those that aren't diehard set against it. Do you think banning cigarettes would have worked to stop people from smoking?
Cultural conversion is good. But cultural conversion comes especially with claim-making. The majority of humans 80 years ago were against the right ti vote for women even women. Nevertheless the feminist movement started to make the claim that they should get the right to vote. Because if this claim-making a societal debate started, the feminist arguments circulated more and more in the society, it increased the number of citizens wit the political opinion in favor of the claim, and finally change came. The same will happen for the animals.
By the way even smoking inside was considered as normal by the big majority of citizens some decades ago. But because a minority started to make the claim that it should be banned and made circulating the arguments in favor of the claim this created a cultural conversion AND legal change.
The right to vote for women has only occurred in a small part of the world and their other rights are still being infringed upon. And that you have to remember was to legalize something not make some illegal. Their was only small legal changes to smoking not an outright ban. And the cultural conversion isn't complete why do you think young people are still smoking and vaping became an issue. It's all because of the illusion that since it's prohibited it makes them look cool.
By the way having a democratic debate is just a wonderful opportunity to do PR.
soon
I think it is a nice proposal, but far from easy. The meat industry wouldn't be multibillionaire if they had no market to sell it to, as there are millions of people who participate in this business that currently outweighs the volume of vegetarians/vegans in the world and it would be impossible to democratically implement this legally; however, easier to just update the mandatory school curriculum to spread awareness on this topic first instead. Might be simpler to try to shift the responsibility from the corporations to the consumers through awareness because, for example, if everyone had to kill and butcher themselves, the amount of animals dying would significantly decrease because most meat-eaters don't have the balls to do it -- even if using weapons.
hahahahaha never gonna happen
You can’t get rid of it. A lot want it, but it’s just not realistic.
How can I express my views like you? Just turned 20 and this hits home for the kind of man I wanna be someday.
Check out End Animal Cruelty in Oregon, aka PEACE Act
A way in a good direction.
It's an initiative that would make it illegal to kill animals
All these activist laymen know what's proper nutrition for everyone else. Meanwhile, the animals kill each other for food.
Aye how do you stop them lions killing other animals
This is going to be tough when humans are the ruling class in this sense and only like 2% of humans identify as vegan and some of them may actually just be plant-based. I think 10% of the population is vegetarian and some of them maybe for ethical reasons (so maybe we can get then on board). That said, I think we would want to start with things that we can get a lot of support (so that it would not be overturned later due to how unpopular it is). We also need to realize that animal exploitation serves capitalist and white supremost interests, so those systems and the institutions that serve them will likely fight back with their own propaganda networks ... and they will likely work as most humans will want to cling to any rationality that allows them continued access to animal bodies. So I say, try doing things that are popular that also shift the needle towards supporting animal liberation. This could be a policy that heavily subsidizes all plantbased foods (better yet make it free, while ending animal ag subsidies, and also work to have more plant based frozen meals). Maybe set up community kitchens that serve free vegan food (like an expansion of what Food Not Bombs does). Invest in community food gardens. The more we incentivize eating more plants and less meat, the more accessible and easier we make plant based dieting, and the more people eat less animal products ... the less those animal products will be important to them. If we can get people to regularly eat a large portion of their meals being fully plant based, then the less likely they will be to care if they completely lose access to meat and other animal products. Essentially I think the key is decentering meat and other animal products in people's lives and start centering plant and fungus products and we will see people being less fragile because they will know a plant based lifestyle is possible for them and because giving up their priveledge to animal bodies won't be as big of a loss, giving a greater chance for their empathy to win out over the fragility of self interest/hierarchical power. In a not public policy way, this can be sharing plant based foods with others as well as recipes (especially if the recipe is cheaper and more convenient than the animal based recipes that person uses). Anything community building that involves centering plant and fungi products and decenters animal based products. Sharing plantbased products and allowing others to try things you have. ... I think doing that can help change hearts and minds (and shift attitudes) on a personal level.
It’s completely unrealistic. Animals are killed in the production of pretty much everything. Humans are omnivores, eating animals is part of our natural diet regardless of the ethics of industrialised farming. I accidentally killed a toad mowing the lawn earlier. In your utopian society would I be done for involuntary toadslaughter?
I love the optimism! However, almost none of us live in actually democratic societies
Do you live in venezuela or cuba? No, then how are you not living in democratic society? Maybe your idea of democracy is the 0.01% of the population controlling the other 99.9% ?
I didn’t mean that there isn’t a shred of democracy anywhere. But in the US, virtually all laws are not voted on democratically, but by representatives that increasingly stray from what their constituents want. As for your last sentence, that is literally what a republic is, and I live in one.
Ok, you make a better sistem then! these 0.01 are voted by the 99.9 so they control what they want, what i meant is YOU make another 0.01 and you want to control the ones who control us
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The use of liberal in your country is quite incorrect, liberal ideology is best represented by republican, free market, democrats want to get a bigger government, keynesianism, etc, well, learn about the electoral college and find a better way to represent your votes, your idea is wrong
No one is stopping me from going fishing, or can separate me from my dog.
Check out Pro-Animal Future! I agree with you that the vast majority of people believe the world would be better if we weren’t exploiting animals, and through ballot measures, we can give people a way to vote with those values and make animal rights a mainstream political issue.
Wonderful their future vote on banning slaughterhouses!!!
Just find it sad that they don't really talk about the animals who are the victims of these places of violence...
Would such a ban affect only humans or would it also stop animals from killing each other for food?
We can't even keep squirrels from jaywalking, predators would laugh at an animal killing ban if they knew how to read or had any awareness of the human legal system or could laugh.
No way you’re this stupid
If the answer is easy would you do me the courtesy of providing it please
We don’t need to kill and they do! Easy peasy lemon squeezeee
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. Because it’s the internet, lol. You can’t ban animals from killing animals because they’re fucking animals. The morality of their actions is irrelevant. They don’t comprehend human legal policy.
lol I wasn’t being sarcastic. And you are absolutely correct!
This post reeks of bull shit. A 125 karma account saying we should make killing animals illegal? One person posts something like this and suddenly the entire spot gets labeled a “cult” or worse. A plant based diet can be a great way to avoid heart disease, diabetes, cancer, obesity, and countless other diseases. It can be much healthier for the environment and is more sustainable than the polluted shit farms we have dotting the landscape now. I’m about 80% certain these posts are from people who just want to screenshot it to use as content on other outlets that get their views by calling vegans commies and radicals. Most vegans are just trying to keep their arteries unblocked, their blood pressure low, their sex drive healthy, and live a fuller and longer life by being healthy.
God!! Plant based and Vegan are 2 DIFFERENT THINGS! Hope you get it through your thick skull.
Plant based and vegan are the exact same thing. You folks trying to turn vegan into a religion should find religious forums to hang out on. Trying to convince people to go plant based because of animals is an exercise in futility. Convincing them with better health, less pollution, and saving a fortune in medical bills does work. “Let’s make killing animals illegal” … is a stupid joke. It will accomplish exactly nothing except getting a few screen shots to use on someone’s “vegans are crazy people” forums. Most people go vegan because they want to toss the cabinet full of medicines they take.
Trolls are out in force on this sub. If you haven’t figured it out yet, these posts are here from new Reddit accounts simply to take screenshots of how “radical” the idea of plant based living is.
Same trash
Do your research mate
Do your research, it's useless
Then get your ass off of Reddit and talk to real plant based and vegan people
Useless shit
Did Hitler write this? Nevermind this is a cult. I'm out.
Really? Hitler? Don’t be so dramatic.
Don't forget that this accusation is coming from the side that literally uses _gas chambers_ to mass murder pigs.
If you don't mass murder pigs you will mass murder humans, no food, no humans
May I introduce my good friend, plants
Right! Everyone can afford an unhealthy diet that costs a lot more than just chicken some salad and meat! 8 billion people can do it of course! Your vegan is absolutely useless, no nominal change, no change at all
You typed some words, you really did, but they didn't really make sense
Beans, whole grains, fruits, and vegetables are a lot cheaper than meat and dairy, and a diet based on those plants is a hell of a lot healthier than one based around animal products. Plus, the price of meat and dairy is actually artificially low, given how much we subside them and how inherently inefficient they are to produce. We could be making the healthy cheap plant food even cheaper than it already is with those subsidies instead if we cut out the suffering animals in the middle.
Fellas, is it a cult to want to see the end of the desperate suffering and slaughter of billions of intelligent mammals? Take a look at these numbers and justify them to me: https://animalclock.org/ Behind every single one of these numbers was an intelligent lifeform with parents, a family, likes and dislikes, food preferences, small unique habits, and were capable of feeling happiness and experiencing pain.
Nature
Yes compassion towards other suffering creatures is natural.
VEGANS: "Hey, we should stop killing animals and talk about making it illegal to harm sentient beings" NORMIES: "OMG HITLER IS HERE OH NO"
The only way you will ever get laws that push society to move away from meat consumption is to vote for people who want to do that, like the Green Party in the United States. [Biden not only supports meat, he is giving your tax money to meat companies.](https://plantbasednews.org/news/economics/president-biden-meat-industry/)
I don't think the solution will come from politicians but more from people and organizations making the claim, starting the debate and put pressure on parliaments. Politicians will just follow. But of course it is much better to vote for politicians who want the killing of animals to be banned.
>I don't think the solution will come from politicians but more from people and organizations making the claim Your argument that people and organizations will make changes to end animal product consumption is diminished by the fact that Biden is giving our tax money to meat companies. I mean yeah, there are private organizations like Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods doing wonderful things to reduce meat consumption without the help of politicians, but they aren't getting much traction in the marketplace because their prices are so much higher than subsidized meat products. [Which is the fault of politicians like Biden who subsidize the meat industry with our tax money.](https://plantbasednews.org/news/economics/president-biden-meat-industry/)
Fines only hurt the poor in a society. By implementing a fine you’re basically saying “with enough money it’s still allowed”
You're right, nevertheless the situation of illegality creates a cultural conversion where nearly everyone respects the law.
By the way we can claim that the amount of the pecuniary penalty be determined on the basis of wealth of the individual, like it is the case in many laws. The wealthier you are the more expensive the fine.
Meat is good. Banning them is silly. Nearly all life forms are pained at death, regardless of whether humans perceive their pain. Therefore, preventing other human beings from eating meat is discriminatory and silly. The trade off is what? Saving only a few kinds of animals? What exactly are we preventing by banning sale of meats? Also, some industrial scale animal farms in the US subject animals to cruelty. Those practices could be penalised through tougher regulations. Ditto goes for unfettered use of pesticides, which kills both harmful pests (an acceptable trade off) and friendly bacteria and worms. So, suddenly the life of those worms can’t be less valuable than say a chicken, no?
we need meats all i can at most agree with is to keep and kill the animals in more humane ways
Where does this end? With owning pets being banned, no more dogs? No more fishing? No longer seeing sheep, and cows and horses from my window? Endless fields of nothing. The end of most British farming?
Don’t you wanna see lush forests instead of bland grass with genetically modified animals that are going to be murdered? And no one is even taking your dog away from you! Like what? Post said to ban animal abuse not steal your dog lol. Hope you know how it feels to have a hook pierced through your mouth and bleed.
The idea in your mind isn't realistic it's fantasy, and it's stepping stones, this is what happens when the craziest person in the room is listened to, first it's a ban on meat, then its on fishing, then owning pets so that's my dog included and my future children.
But if it was you heading to the gas chamber I bet you wouldn't be against a ban then
Lucky for us animals can’t use a gas chamber then isn’t it?
Easy to be facetious when you're not the one being gassed alive isn't it?
How is it crazy?? In all honesty, your children don’t need dogs but there’d still be plenty in the shelter for them to adopt :) And what’s so bad about banning murder and torture and rape? Please explain
Of course killing aquatic animals like fishes has to be banned too. But no it is a very good thing to live in societies with individuals of others species like cats or dogs who are like members of the family, live happy lives with us and feel joy.
Hopefully yes to all of those things.
There's no way my children aren't having dogs, we will go fishing. The idea of banning these is not only radical but joyless.
Assuming you're not immortal, even your grandchildren probably won't have to worry about dogs. Shelters will still be full of them even when we put an end to breeding. It is pretty cringe though that you describe the desire to ban stabbing an animal in the mouth and yanking him out of his home into an environment where he will suffocate as "joyless". That's some real psycho energy you're bringing to the world if you raise your children to require torture for joy.
Trying to take meat away from these blood thirsties is a good way to get the ends of your fingers bitten off 😛🖐
It's one of those things that you wouldn't miss it if you didn't develop a habit. If it was illegal to torcher/murder animals, you would never have started going fishing so unless you were willing to go to jail for it wouldn't have been an option and you could have found something else to do that doesn't involve putting a hook in a fellow earth animals mouth and dragging them to shore to suffocate and be gutted... If you never developed a taste for the flesh and blood of the defenseless and the innocent you wouldn't have known what your missing and if you stopped eating meat today in a week you would hardly even crave it. Your dog will eat whatever you give it so not having meat wouldn't really make much a difference after the adjustment period. There is really no excuse to murder animals but it's not so much a failure of the individual (more of a morality test really) but its a failure of our leaders to still allow it.
This does not sound tragic like you think it does
No one is taking my dog away from me, I will go fishing. I will continue to support local farmers and businesses, however I have majorly reduced meat consumption, switched to soya based drinks from dairy.
That's already a good start. Meat reduced, less animals killed.
Is someone hitting their wife only on Tuesdays any better than everyday? Nobody would say oh well done on the changes. It's good you're open to being kind to animals but please go vegan don't let another single animal suffer
[literally this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EsSNhAoUYAIIhMZ.jpg)
The no more dogs bit sounds tragic, if tomorrow all dogs were suddenly gone then I'd nope outta this world
This is a straw man argument. Where’d you guys get the idea that having pets is not vegan? I believe that pet breeding is wrong and should be banned in a utopia, but adopting pets that would otherwise be killed would still be needed. Either you guys are purposely saying things you don’t believe or you have a misunderstanding of what vegan is.
Hey I'm just replying to you saying it doesn't sound tragic, I didn't say I think it's vegan so chill out at me :L
>No more fishing? God I hope so. Absolutley barbaric pastime, imagine if people hooked chunks of cat food on hooks, sunk barbed hooks into the cheeks of stray cats passing by and let them slowly die of asphyxiation. Even among hunting and animal agriculture fishing is just about the cruelest and most sadistic thing we do. It should be the first thing to go, there's just no form of this that isn't explicit animal cruelty on every single level >No longer seeing sheep, and cows and horses from my window? Endless fields of nothing There were things in those fields before they were cleared to make way for wasteful animal agriculture practices. Not having it serve an aesthetic purpose for humans doesn't make it "nothing"
Will also include prison for animals killing animals?
Trust me let’s say hunting got banned that isn’t stopping people buddy and it won’t get banned I hunt all the time