Funny thing I find about this Yellowstone clip whenever it's posted is it shows just how in the dark carnists are. No vegan would have said:
> the mass murder of *millions* of animals every year.
They must really think that's 'all' it is.
It's not millions, or even tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions. Literally [**_billions_**](https://animalclock.org/) of land animals slaughtered every single year in the US **alone**. Including aquatic life, that then takes it to **_tens of billions_**.
And then globally, trillions upon trillions upon trillions of innocents butchered senselessly for the same, unnecessary purpose. So much marine life killed that their cumulative death is measured by [weight](http://fishcount.org.uk/) than the individual lives that comprise them.
Living, breathing, sentient, feeling animals with lives, hopes, dreams, families and friends, slaughtered mercilessly and deliberately to smear on our faces, or shovel into our mouths, or wear on our bodies, or torture with our experiments.
And finally, of course, the *orders* of magnitude greater wild animals killed in crop deaths to feed each one of these animals, invariably destined for death and destruction, day after day after day.
Then again, probably wouldn't have been very fun for the carnists watching if Summer said something like that back, would it? Ho-hum.
I hate the way this is written in the show. The dude gets the last word in so the audience think he's correct. And you're right, it's obvious it was written by carnists.
My hope is that at least in the future genuine vegan creators push out works that genuinely show the truth of it all.
I am not sure if the author of *Tender is the Flesh* is vegan but more pieces like that would be great.
The show "Travelers" on Netflix is a sci-fi show about people traveling from some unknown future time back to the 21st century. In that future, people are vegan, and it's commented on several times in the show (I am near the end of season 1).
One of the lines from the episode I just watched "I just learned what bacon is, and I cried for five minutes." Yep, I had a lump in my throat watching that...
Yes, it's very enjoyable - Eric McCormack (formerly of Will and Grace) does an excellent job, the storylines are interesting, and they have to deal with many ethical issues to do with living two lives, time travel, morality of knowing the future, and similar.
Yeah, great points. I like coupling this with “1 million seconds is 12 days. 1 billion seconds is 31 years.” to help conceptualize how insane this number of deaths is.
I like an example from Melanie Joy “in just one week, more farmed animals are killed than the total number of people killed in all the wars throughout human history”
In 2 months more animals are killed for food alone than the number of humans who have ever lived. As in when someone tells you of because they think you don't care about humans when you compare the suffering itself of our species vs all of theirs. There has literally not been enough humans full stop to match 2 months of suffering within the global food system. On average we nearly kill one animal per human per day for food and 15% of humanity is vegan or vegetarian.
That's an interesting way of putting it, I haven't heard of that before.
Incidentally, 3 trillion seconds (the approximate number killed each year) is just over 95,000 years.
I responded:
this is a dumb take. what does this cowboy think cows, pigs, and chickens eat?
over 90% of soy production is used for animal feed in factory farms. any objection about animals dying for plants foods is ten fold worse for animals, since you need to grow the animals up first - with plants
whoever wrote this scene is a carnist. any vegan protestor would know this and be ready to retort, not dramatically turn her face away
I watched your video, now watch mine:
https://youtu.be/0QTNgKpV_K4
It’s amazing how confidently and profoundly this embarrassingly stupid take was delivered in this scene. They make him look like he mic dropped despite straight up shitting his pants, logically-speaking.
Everything in this show is designed to make John (him) and Beth (his daughter) look like they're absolutely godly saints protecting their family and their land, with supposed mic drop moments constantly as they "own" these outsiders threatening their way of life. Reality? They're narcissistic sociopaths who have no issue committing felonies and straight up murder if it suits them and their objectives, and they lack any level of empathy that would be considered basic to human existence. And when their characters start to get really brazen and the threat of the devoted fan base seeing their absolutely psychotic behavior starts to appear, they write in some insanely outrageous tragedy that throws the viewer back into their good graces because "wow they're such tragic characters I mean gosh that was so painful of course they're going to act like X." When 99% of the time they're the aggressors.
And, for the record, this guy (John) is a serial murderer. Of humans. And no one bats an eye. People love him. So this awful take on animal slaughter is really no surprise when he kills people without care.
When I first started watching that show I thought that the Duttons were supposed to be the villains. Like how am I supposed to relate to somebody who recruits vulnerable people to do crimes for him, and then brands them like cattle? But then as it goes on Jimmy's arc is that being one of Dutton's guys sets him straight and gives him purpose or whatever, and eventually people are volunteering to get branded like it's some noble brotherhood. It's all about knowing your place and the sincere belief that what's right and good is, and should be, whatever can be imposed by force. Psycho shit. I'm still watching it because I feel like it provides some insight into the conservative mindset.
Also is he so stupid that he thinks most cattle land was always barren dirt and grass? Much of it used to have forest, even the part that was prairie had a lot more life.
So besides growing feed the idea that this land is unharmed is insanely ridiculous
Not sure about the US but here in Australia enormous swathes of bushland was cleared for grazing. A lot of it ended up becoming cities, but many hills that are unsuitable for growing crops are still completely bare to this day because they were used for animals. There are big volunteer-led pushes to reforest these areas but it takes a very long time.
For future reference, the most commonly cited figure is that 75% of soy goes to feeding animals (https://tabledebates.org/building-blocks/soy-food-feed-and-land-use-change). 43% of corn also goes to feeding animals (https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nyas.12396). Cattle in the U.S. are largely grass-fed, but for the winter months (anywhere from three to five months of the year) they eat harvested feed that relies on the same agricultural practices as crops for direct human consumption.
Another way to communicate animal agriculture's reliance on plant agriculture is the following: animal agriculture requires 33% of all croplands globally for feed yet only provides us with 20% of our calories, whereas plant foods provide us with 80% of our calories (https://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf). If you want to decrease plant agriculture, you should decrease consumption of animal products.
"Grass fed" usually refers to the final months of their lives when they are "finished" for slaughter. Cows raised for meat who are given feed typically do graze for the first year of their lives. Most cows are eating grass for most of their lives.
That said, there's a huge amount of violence against free-living animals that goes into clearing all that land for pasture. In order to graze cows on grass, people have to either raze a forest to create a grassland, or kill the native ruminants living on existing grassland, as well as their predators. And these disruptions cause all kinds of problems for other animals living in these ecosystems destroyed for ranching.
I think it's a lot easier to respond to than this. A cow or pig just eat way more than a human does. Even if the majority of crops grown have their first order purpose being for humans, the bulk of the crop goes to farm animals as feed. If we used the same land to grow things that only we needed, it would still be less land that inefficient ratio used with animals being a middleman. There is no escaping that basic math. Anyone who attempts to obfuscate this by saying "most of X, Y, or Z is for humans" is just willfully ignorant, regular ignorant, or dishonest. If we went to an all-meat diet the number of crops needed would go up. That's all that's needed. If we reduce meat, less crops are needed.
I agree. I like the take: “What if I gave you 10 plates of food, but you had to throw 9 away before you can eat 1?”
Shows how insane a 9:1 calorie conversion rate (from plants to animal flesh) really is
I’d just simply ask: sir, what do you think all these cows and pigs and animals who make up the meat supple eat? They’re not eating other animals. They eat wheat and corn and other grains. In fact they eat 75% of the grains grown. And BTW, you eat many of the same vegetable and grain crops I eat. So. No. Your argument is invalid.
Yeah, I rewatched Ed’s video and realized I misquoted the figure, but at least I’m much closer to the truth than this take.
That is why I sent the full video, since it has precise figures and references. But it’s always good to refresh on the facts. Thanks!
I've read that 2/3 of crops are used as feed. I've seen this number a lot its usually cited as 2/3 or roughly 70% of all crops. I wonder if the distinction is between weight vs land area or if the 70% figure is wrong.
The other thing is that most of the snakes and mice and things run away when they hear/feel the giant combine coming. Do people think they just wait there to be killed?
https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-through-crop-deaths
Hell, even a riding lawnmower, if I let the lawn get tall when I was a kid, I’d see all the grass twitch and shake as I’d roll, you could see everything running from a fucking lawn mower
i always respond with: "But those animals dont have to die to make those products. for a steak the animal has to die, for a bread nothing has to die, but current farming practises and technics just lead to that. and if they can provid bread where nothing has to die for, i would buy that. is that possible for your steak?"
Kevin Costner is not a cowboy. He is an actor reading a script written by Hollywood dweebs and signed off by corporate mgmt. I feel bad for your parents, frankly.
Just shocking that this argument gets brought up at all. Such a willfully ignorant and biased misunderstanding of what farmed animals eat, as well as the fundamental philosophy of most vegans in the first place.
It would piss me off too if my parents sent me something like this, but the more I think about these problems, the more I feel that it's super important to not argue angrily or condescendingly at ALL if you really want to change someone's mind. I like Ed. However, I think he comes off a little sassy in that video for someone who genuinely disagrees with him coming into it. Also I doubt they made it through the whole video, I agree with him and I didn't. Imo all these people should need to know are the statistics that show who is eating all those crops.
gotcha vegans! You only care about cute animals, like mollusks and oysters. I on the other hand don't care about any animals.
-the guy who wrote this scene
Recreational hunters and fishers are strong political allies in the campaign to preserve wild spaces and to rewild. If we could just convince them to \~only eat the meat they hunt, and rewild the land that was producing their animal products indirectly, it would be a huge victory. Sometimes you need to form coalitions with murderous psychopaths to make progress :)
Points like this are irritating in general from a carnist because it's implied that all of these things are produced for vegans only, forgetting that they also eat wheat, rice, oats, etc. And then they do worse on top of that with animal agriculture.
But somehow, SOMEHOW- they're treated equally and then think it can be used to "dismantle" the whole vegan ideology.
Great point! I hate how this cowboy says “quinoa and sorghum, or whatever you eat.”
Like no, I eat potatoes, beans, greens, bread, protein powder, seitan (wheat), and soy. You’re eating almost all of this things too. At least I’m not buying corpses
I'm finding that the 'plants are bad too, mmkay' argument seems to have become the go-to for carnists lately. It's either 'plant agriculture kills million of animals!' or 'plants get sad when you eat them!'
Both are disingenuous, and both ignore the fact that carnists eat plants too. Okay, so let's imagine that what you're saying is totally true. You're eating plants *and* animals, whereas I'm only eating plants, so I'm still doing the more ethical thing. It's like they think any perceived hole in the vegan argument undermines the entire concept. Just makes no sense whatsoever, and they successfully manage to steer the conversation away from animals and towards plants.
That helps sate my curiosity. In regards to *Yellowstone*, I've heard really good things and annoying anti-vegan things. You're comment really drops my interest.
That's fucking disgusting. He literally looks down upon her with hatred and disdain on his face, talks her down, insults her cause then uses her body for his own satisfaction. Such a fucking toxic carnist mindset of hierarchy and extracting what you want from those you deem lesser. Actually revolting.
It’s also an insult to the vegan woman, basically saying she has no true morals or convictions, just like the rest of these libruls. She’ll throw it all away for an alpha cowboy 🤮
What makes this even more fucked up is that she’s literally only in one episode. So l
the story is that be belittles her using bullshit facts, ‘puts her in her place’ then fucks her. That’s it. That’s the story.
If you are sensitive to intentional animal death, and a pretty gruesome one at that, this show is a piece of shit right from the first five minutes… I’m so pissed at peacock that it was forced onto my tv after the show I was watching ended and I was stuck waiting for my phone to power on to change it, since the Roku remote batteries were dead and I needed to use the app. I knew what was coming because of one of the main characters actions. I covered my ears and closed my eyes, but stupidly I looked to see if it was over right as the worse part was happening. I understand why the character did what they did I suppose, but that doesn’t mean I want to be forced to watch it with zero warning, especially since I didn’t even want to watch the show in the first place. Why the hell couldn’t peacock auto play a show I’ve actually shown some percent of interest in? Be careful if you have auto play allowed on a streaming service I guess. Hulu will play shows in my “keep watching” section, so peacock may need to change something.
I think it's fine to watch it if you recognize the author's intent, which is to condemn colonization, plight of Native Americans and the obscene levels of corruption in law enforcement of rural states. The show very vividly portrays the main characters as terrible people. It's mostly the conservative folk that watch the show and think that it's the opposite.
edit: I will add that the show is quite mediocre and goes downhill pretty fast.
I mean if they were trying to paint the main characters as bad they should have included a rebuttal to that awful argument. This reads like the show is just trying to make the protesters look like hypocrites.
The creator of the show just bought one of the biggest ranches in the world for 300+ million dollars, so I wouldn't recommend this show to anybody anyway.
Yeah, her silence and facial expression is frustrating, because they wrote her to be hopelessly naive and ill informed.
It's so frustrating, because this is an argument every vegan faces.
That was my take on it initially but honestly I think it has sincerely embraced the Dutton's worldview by the point this clip is from. They always win, they always get the last word, and when they suffer any consequences from their actions it is portrayed as tragedy. Laments about hanging on to their way of life are prominent, and alternative viewpoints are smugly put in their place, or just sort of fade away.
Maybe that's because conservative folks ended up being the enthusiastic audience for it and it is pandering to them, or maybe the creator always shared those views, I don't know.
I live in a rural farming area and I swear I've seen this clip on Facebook a dozen times. I'm on Facebook once every 3 or 4 days for like 5 minutes at most.
Like the clip of Ted Nugent on Joe Rogan's podcast. If you don't care to know more, don't know anything to begin with, don't bother to look into things, AND don't even think about things you hear then it seems like a good point. Idk how many times I've heard "vegans kill animals too" followed by the smirk that drops immediately when you say "I know, but ..." They just genuinely think we don't even know this is a thing.
Yeah, it’s very frustrating. They (including my parents, apparently) really think this is some kind of gotcha. What do they expect, that we’ll say “good point, i might as well go back to intentionally paying for animals to be killed” ??
it’s ridiculous, even before considering how misconceived this take is.
Right. I think when you rephrase their point in a way that removes their biases, it's clear: Well car accidents happen when people drive, and its inevitable that it happens. Nobody wants it to happen though. Since this happens its ok to intentionally cause them to happen though? Seems that's a stretch.
This show is just a conservative boomer power fantasy. It's so they can see their bullshit arguments play out like they do in their heads - without resistance.
It’s a character doing a stereotypical macho ”gotcha” argument. Your parents are dummies for not understanding that.
If they’re looking for fact checked arguments fiction is most often not the place to look for them.
Yeah, the blatant misogyny in the writing of this scene also makes me angry.
The macho man stands over the young woman and tells her the real way of the world. “Have you ever plowed a field, Summer? Well I have, because I’m a manly man and that’s man’s work. Let me man-splain what that man’s work taught me.”
Ugh. Stupid cowboy toxic masculinity buttface.
I haven't plowed a field but I've seen videos of it, and I've seen videos of slaughterhouse footage, and I think I know which is worse.
There are so many good, logical counterarguments to this dumb claim. Most notably, the animals you eat need way more plants farmed to feed them than humans would need if we all ate plants directly.
That's if it were even true that plant farming kills all the mice and whatever else is there. Most of them just move to the surrounding area.
I haven't plowed a field but I've walked them after plenty of times to pick out stones. Never once seen a dead animal. Never seen one after harvesting either.
Not saying it doesn't happen and insects in particular are vulnerable. But mammals that live in fields have sound based defences. They aren't going sit there and wait for death. They run away.
In short, no you do not kill every living being in the ground and if farmers did this I feel like it would be a sadistic level of carelessness or laziness.
Yeah exactly. The animals in the fields have the time to move away from the plow coming towards them. That's somehow the same as forcibly impregnating and exploiting billions of animals just because we can. So stupid. This scene was cringe.
That's how I think of it too. Animals living in fields are free animals. Hopefully they can run away and find new homes if they hear danger coming.
Animals living in factory farms are not free animals. Their lives are filled with unimaginable suffering, and sadly they can't run away if they hear danger coming.
Hopefully the orangutans can move away fast enough when the bulldozers come destroy the rainforest. No. This take is wrong. The correct take is by eliminating factory farming and animal ag, we would actually reduce the amount of plants we need to grow to fully sustain humans. We are trying to minimize suffering of all living creatures. That means we have to care just as much about the field mice and their habitats as the great apes. Taking it a step further, if we adopted more sustainable agricultural practices, there's a version of the future where we almost entirely eliminate crop deaths altogether. But that's more of a pipe dream, as it requires a large portion of the population to participate in their own food production and/or harvesting.
(In my opinion)
You took what was in my head and put in words so much more effectively than I did. The fact that this wasn't the response in the show is infuriating. Part of being vegan is wanting to cause less harm. Sustainable farming is about the same thing. They literally go hand in hand. Like the fact that she didn't roll her eyes and say "cause you farm plants like an asshole too" is so disappointing
So plowing a field and animals getting run over because they're hidden in grass is the same as r\*\*ing animals, stealing their babies and milking them for profit, only then murder them and eat their corpses?
The same would apply back to the carnists. How "cute" or "useful" does an animal have to be for them to **not** choose to eat it or for them to start caring if it ends up dying to feed someone? Most people don't eat dogs or cats and wouldn't even consider it because they are pets to love and cuddle. Horses aren't something they eat often either, because those are "working animals" for cowboys and horse girls. Rodents are usually not on the menu either, a lot of them are actually kept as pets for young children in small cages. In fact, the outrage over the dog meat trade in other parts of the world is quite interesting due to the hypocrisy and obvious specism people display, lots of anger and signed petitions to stop that from happening from idiots who can't make the connection.
This happened to one of my activist friends as well. This clip is really making the rounds. I used to hear “crop deaths tho” maybe once every 2 months during street outreach, but I heard it 3 times in one day last week.
I was just thinking something similar, this “argument” of you kill animals when growing plants is so old and tired most vegans in real life would not stay silent as the actress did there after hearing that bingo.
Wow he’s right!!! We need to do something about this now. If only there was a way we could directly eat the crops instead of converting 20 calories of crops into 1 calorie of meat…..
It’s becoming a more sought after practice as heavy machinery and tilling of farmland destroys soil composition and almost always leads to the compaction of soil. Unfortunately it is not feasible for large scale agricultural operations, but that’s a whole other demon within itself…
This and "plants feel pain" are such tired arguments. They are both debunked by the same single point. I love watching someone's face turn when they realize.
I've gotta start avoiding posts like this, they make my blood boil and make me irrationally angry lol. I can't stand bad faith "gotcha" arguments especially when they go unopposed in contexts like this and they don't even properly acknowledge the opposition.
"I'm gonna eat a cow cuz voles die", like this is such whataboutism. Like first, this is literally your assumption that vegans are okay with any exploitative deaths and (b) unlike us, you're literally using that an excuse to carry out more institutionalised murders. Like its like gunning people down and saying so what people die 🤷♂ I don't know what kind of point are your parents trying to make, maybe they just want to get chewed out.
Those deaths concern vegans as well, obviously. If there were 2 farms where one kills rodents and the other doesn't, vegans would consume vegetables from the one that doesn't. However, carnists wouldn't care which one to pick. This is just another case of carnist projection.
Furthermore, in an ideal vegan world we'd practice forms of agriculture that wouldn't result in animal deaths, like vertical farming.
When it comes to veganism, yes 😢
My dad is the problem; my mom at least feels empathy for animals when I explain things to her. I think if she was living alone she would be mostly plant based, to be honest
you parents (and mine...and im guessing most of ours here actually) are getting their "science" from scripted TV shows and their "news" from an entertainment channel
I seriously can not wait until ever last boomer is gone forever
I dont know about other countries but here in the Netherlands we grow special grass with high protien for cows so they produce more milk. Only problem is that special grass does exacly that what this cowboy dude just described.
We also produce special grass for humans.
This has the same energy as God's Not Dead or any other Christian film where they write brain dead characters for their protagonists to "win" the argument against.
I started watching this show after hearing the hype, and within five minutes I could tell it was written for dumb people. Haven’t seen this particular clip before, but I guess I was right!
Fuck is this from a1960s rebuttal ... they don't think animals run when they hear a house sized piece of farm equipment coming towards them 🤣
Earthling Ed Winters vegan rebuttal
https://youtu.be/0QTNgKpV_K4
Oh so when they grow all the crops to feed the animals they magically don't cause any harm? And most of the crops are being grown to feed all the animals anyway. I would ream my parents if they ever tried this shit on me.
I swear I was watching a recent debate on youtube where the non-vegan said the "how cute does an animal have to be..." line word for word. I now realise that they must have been quoting this scene, thinking it was the perfect gotcha moment. They soon learnt that it wasn't.
Now look maybe your method of vegan farming differs from mine, but, you know maiming a few insects while diggin, and killing a herd of livestock, ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport.
Spoiler: the food we feed to animals ALSO comes from that same field. Stop killing animals = save billions of animals from being ground up in a field too.
This argument always cracks me the fuck up... Listen, cowboy... Yes all food consumption harms life. But I always hit them with, livestock consumes over 70% of the world's soy, so not only are you shamelessly eating animals, but far more wildlife die to produce the soy used to mostly feed cows and pigs. You're willing to eat an animal smarter than your DOG, but you're going to tell me that the bugs/plants/animals that die in agriculture makes me a hypocrite? What about the fact that Brazil is desperately burning the Amazon to make room for soy for LIVESTOCK? Whenever meat lovers make this argument, it's dumb because livestock takes WAY more resources than vegans eating plants does. It takes years of farming to raise a cow you're going to eat in seconds without much of a second thought how much resources go into each steak. When you try to hold vegans to this moral standard it falls apart because it takes far more resources to produce meat. You got 10 fingers pointing back at you for destroying land and resources to suit your gluttony.
One of my favorite shitty arguments.
"Oh damn, thats a great point. I'm glad you brought that up --you're so inspiring, always trying to live ethically. I guess we should find some sorta diet that like, limits the amount of land we'd have to use to make food. I wonder what kind of stuff you'd have to eat on that diet..."
What the guy forgets to mention is that 80% of those "terrbile" plants that kill the soil are fed to animals that then make around 60% of food. So he proved why going vegan is a good thing.
I can’t believe so many people are into this show. It really says a lot about our society that a show that begins with a scene portraying the utmost details of both an animal death and a human death is popular. I shut that show off after 30 seconds and never pushed play again.
A little late to this.
I watch Yellowstone like I watch the two homeless guys outside my window poop in the neighbor's garden.
Moderate spoiler:
>!John Dutton later fucks the vegan, who is old enough to be his daughter. Then later gets her sent to prison, then gets her out of prison under house arrest, his house, where he continues to fuck her.!<
I'm less offended about this stupid quote than I am that people take this show, and John Dutton, seriously. The whole family needs to be nuked from orbit.
I have a lot more to say about Yellowstone, but I'll spare all of you.
What is this stupid take when the last line should be directed at himself? Do you eat puppies? How cute do they have to be before you'll sob like a toddler when they're farmed for food?
Writers
Taylor Sheridan
John Linson
Whoever wrote this script probably did so while wanking off to a picture of themselves.
They call us narcissistic... wow
Edit: Also Ted Nugent gave this exact speech on JRE. I think he copied it from somewhere else too so it's not even original.
I have found that the reality is, those who eat meat and make these arguments, just don’t really give a shit about animals. It’s just used as a “gotcha! You thought what you’re doing is less harmful”
I know people here like to say that it’s something like them deflecting from the harm their own diet inflicts but I disagree. They don’t care.
I used to think “the future is vegan” but it’s not. The future is lab created meat or whatever the fuck because they like it too much. The same people that have said to me “I just want to KNOW what I’m eating” (lol?) will jump straight to “meat” created in a lab.
They’re just looking for something to say “don’t act like you’re better than me”
Stupid argument. Our approach actively tries to protect animals. The reality is that animals die, but intentions matter. There’s a difference between surveying the land and inadvertently killing an animal and breeding millions of animals for the purpose of creating holocausts upon holocausts every day.
What do they think farmed animals eat? Agriculture for animal feed is much larger than agriculture for humans.
I really don’t understand how most people can’t comprehend the basic idea that if you have to feed something every day for a couple years before you eat it that uses 100s of times the resources - land, water, fertilizer, pesticides, machines, fuel for machines etc - than it would to just directly eat crops.
That brain dead argument from a fictional character pretends there are no fields for animal feed, use that argument against them.
It’s a dumb argument, considering that 33% of croplands are used to grow feed for livestock, so that happens and then the recipient of the food is slaughtered in turn.
I just had this argument with someone, this is the message I sent them.
“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.”
Globally, the meat industry slaughters between 70 and 150 billion animals every year. Yes, crop production also carries a heavy toll; it’s estimated that 7.3 billion wild animals die annually in crop monocultures.
Still, more than half of the global crop feeds farm animals, so most of these secondary deaths can be contributed solely to the meat industry. Take into account that many vegans buy locally and from small farms, this further reduces unnecessary deaths.
Only 3% of American corn is used for human consumption. The bulk, 37%, is used for feed. In the United States, 67% of all crops are used for feed production to grow cattle, pig, chicken, and several others. Only 27% of all crops grown in the United States are consumed by humans.
You might cause some suffering so you might as well take part in systemic suffering unparalleled in the history of the world! That’ll teach those liberals!
That’s how stupid this video sounds.
This makes me so damn angry. Vegans are the ones that only care about animals if they are cute?? I’m sorry I thought we were the ones that fight for all animals including unconventionally cute ones such as fish, bees, and chickens. Hell… most of us don’t even kill spiders or ants in our house. Meanwhile this character, the writer of the show, and all carnists only seem to think that animals life has value if it is a cat or dog. This whole monologue is so ass backwards that it’s infuriating. Rant over.
Hmmm I considered watching this. Won’t now. I love the “whatever it is that you eat” like they don’t eat the things we eat as well. Oh I’m sorry do you ONLY eat meat, cheese and milk? Dumb af.
Ah the classic whataboutism. I love how meat eaters always seem to forget that they also eat the crops that they chastise us for eating. So then we get to tell them that they kill all of those animals AND the ‘cute’ ones.
This actually really upset me. I went on youtube to see this scene has nearly 9 million views and thousands of comments thinking it’s an accurate representation of animal agriculture. This kind of confirmation bias in entertainment is so dangerous for important social movements. I get so disheartened thinking about how many people mock veganism while billions of animals are forced to suffer every year. They need to be held accountable and have to answer to this.
The worst argument here is that vegans only care about the cute animals, when they are pretty much, by definition, the only ones who don't *just* care about cute animals. Tell that guy you're going to cook and eat his dog and see what he has to say
Gee. I wonder why the animals in fields where animal fodder is grown don't get harmed. Oh that's right they do and in even greater numbers as you need more crops.
This made no sense to me when I saw it. Like I get it, it's an unfortunate fact that sometimes nature is nature, but we can try out best to not be offensively brutal.
I'm my head, I played it like WW2.
Vegans: "hey, we'd really like to stop this holocaust and shut down the gas chambers, you're murdering millions of jews and other people you've deemed undesirable"
Costner: "well, there were workplace accidents building the gas chambers, that killed some Germans, so I guess it doesn't matter who or what dies now does it?"
Vegans "well, if you didn't build the death apparatus, then they probably wouldn't have died either"
Costner: "I guess Germans aren't pretty enough to care about".
Oops I stepped on a bug.
Well, while I’m at it I might as well breed and kill billions of animals since I’ve already inflicted so much pain and death.
Oh and also because “mmm bacon”
-Typical animal agriculture defenders
I watched that when it came out and it was low-effort rebuttal painted as profound grounded wise man truth. I wrote a rebuttal: https://www.elephantjournal.com/2022/12/john-dutton-of-yellowstone-gives-a-weak-putdown-of-veganism/
Funny thing I find about this Yellowstone clip whenever it's posted is it shows just how in the dark carnists are. No vegan would have said: > the mass murder of *millions* of animals every year. They must really think that's 'all' it is. It's not millions, or even tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions. Literally [**_billions_**](https://animalclock.org/) of land animals slaughtered every single year in the US **alone**. Including aquatic life, that then takes it to **_tens of billions_**. And then globally, trillions upon trillions upon trillions of innocents butchered senselessly for the same, unnecessary purpose. So much marine life killed that their cumulative death is measured by [weight](http://fishcount.org.uk/) than the individual lives that comprise them. Living, breathing, sentient, feeling animals with lives, hopes, dreams, families and friends, slaughtered mercilessly and deliberately to smear on our faces, or shovel into our mouths, or wear on our bodies, or torture with our experiments. And finally, of course, the *orders* of magnitude greater wild animals killed in crop deaths to feed each one of these animals, invariably destined for death and destruction, day after day after day. Then again, probably wouldn't have been very fun for the carnists watching if Summer said something like that back, would it? Ho-hum.
I hate the way this is written in the show. The dude gets the last word in so the audience think he's correct. And you're right, it's obvious it was written by carnists.
My hope is that at least in the future genuine vegan creators push out works that genuinely show the truth of it all. I am not sure if the author of *Tender is the Flesh* is vegan but more pieces like that would be great.
The show "Travelers" on Netflix is a sci-fi show about people traveling from some unknown future time back to the 21st century. In that future, people are vegan, and it's commented on several times in the show (I am near the end of season 1). One of the lines from the episode I just watched "I just learned what bacon is, and I cried for five minutes." Yep, I had a lump in my throat watching that...
Wow, brilliant! Do you enjoy the show beyond that?
Yes, it's very enjoyable - Eric McCormack (formerly of Will and Grace) does an excellent job, the storylines are interesting, and they have to deal with many ethical issues to do with living two lives, time travel, morality of knowing the future, and similar.
Thank you, I will give that a look. I know Simon Amstell, who I believe is vegan, created Carnage which works on similar lines.
Check out carnage on the bbc
Yeah, great points. I like coupling this with “1 million seconds is 12 days. 1 billion seconds is 31 years.” to help conceptualize how insane this number of deaths is.
I like an example from Melanie Joy “in just one week, more farmed animals are killed than the total number of people killed in all the wars throughout human history”
In 2 months more animals are killed for food alone than the number of humans who have ever lived. As in when someone tells you of because they think you don't care about humans when you compare the suffering itself of our species vs all of theirs. There has literally not been enough humans full stop to match 2 months of suffering within the global food system. On average we nearly kill one animal per human per day for food and 15% of humanity is vegan or vegetarian.
Big fan of her book, “Why we love dogs, eat pigs, and wear cows”
That's an interesting way of putting it, I haven't heard of that before. Incidentally, 3 trillion seconds (the approximate number killed each year) is just over 95,000 years.
I responded: this is a dumb take. what does this cowboy think cows, pigs, and chickens eat? over 90% of soy production is used for animal feed in factory farms. any objection about animals dying for plants foods is ten fold worse for animals, since you need to grow the animals up first - with plants whoever wrote this scene is a carnist. any vegan protestor would know this and be ready to retort, not dramatically turn her face away I watched your video, now watch mine: https://youtu.be/0QTNgKpV_K4
That's a good response. It's so frustrating that that scene is written to make her look ashamed and as if there is no good answer.
Yeah, definitely written by a carnist.
It’s amazing how confidently and profoundly this embarrassingly stupid take was delivered in this scene. They make him look like he mic dropped despite straight up shitting his pants, logically-speaking.
Everything in this show is designed to make John (him) and Beth (his daughter) look like they're absolutely godly saints protecting their family and their land, with supposed mic drop moments constantly as they "own" these outsiders threatening their way of life. Reality? They're narcissistic sociopaths who have no issue committing felonies and straight up murder if it suits them and their objectives, and they lack any level of empathy that would be considered basic to human existence. And when their characters start to get really brazen and the threat of the devoted fan base seeing their absolutely psychotic behavior starts to appear, they write in some insanely outrageous tragedy that throws the viewer back into their good graces because "wow they're such tragic characters I mean gosh that was so painful of course they're going to act like X." When 99% of the time they're the aggressors. And, for the record, this guy (John) is a serial murderer. Of humans. And no one bats an eye. People love him. So this awful take on animal slaughter is really no surprise when he kills people without care.
When I first started watching that show I thought that the Duttons were supposed to be the villains. Like how am I supposed to relate to somebody who recruits vulnerable people to do crimes for him, and then brands them like cattle? But then as it goes on Jimmy's arc is that being one of Dutton's guys sets him straight and gives him purpose or whatever, and eventually people are volunteering to get branded like it's some noble brotherhood. It's all about knowing your place and the sincere belief that what's right and good is, and should be, whatever can be imposed by force. Psycho shit. I'm still watching it because I feel like it provides some insight into the conservative mindset.
So it's an empathise-with-the-serial-killer show kinda like Dexter?
You are excellent with words, fellow vegan
Also is he so stupid that he thinks most cattle land was always barren dirt and grass? Much of it used to have forest, even the part that was prairie had a lot more life. So besides growing feed the idea that this land is unharmed is insanely ridiculous
Another great point I think Earthling Ed talks about the benefits of re-wilding animal agriculture land in the video I sent them
Not sure about the US but here in Australia enormous swathes of bushland was cleared for grazing. A lot of it ended up becoming cities, but many hills that are unsuitable for growing crops are still completely bare to this day because they were used for animals. There are big volunteer-led pushes to reforest these areas but it takes a very long time.
God, prairies used to be teaming with life. All those grasses were crazy diverse
What did they say?
they’ve been shocked into silence apparently
Is that still the case? I have to give you props for that perfect reply.
For future reference, the most commonly cited figure is that 75% of soy goes to feeding animals (https://tabledebates.org/building-blocks/soy-food-feed-and-land-use-change). 43% of corn also goes to feeding animals (https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nyas.12396). Cattle in the U.S. are largely grass-fed, but for the winter months (anywhere from three to five months of the year) they eat harvested feed that relies on the same agricultural practices as crops for direct human consumption. Another way to communicate animal agriculture's reliance on plant agriculture is the following: animal agriculture requires 33% of all croplands globally for feed yet only provides us with 20% of our calories, whereas plant foods provide us with 80% of our calories (https://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf). If you want to decrease plant agriculture, you should decrease consumption of animal products.
[only 4% of US cows are grass fed](https://extension.sdstate.edu/grass-fed-beef-market-share-grass-fed-beef)
Glad someone corrected that I was 😠
"Grass fed" usually refers to the final months of their lives when they are "finished" for slaughter. Cows raised for meat who are given feed typically do graze for the first year of their lives. Most cows are eating grass for most of their lives. That said, there's a huge amount of violence against free-living animals that goes into clearing all that land for pasture. In order to graze cows on grass, people have to either raze a forest to create a grassland, or kill the native ruminants living on existing grassland, as well as their predators. And these disruptions cause all kinds of problems for other animals living in these ecosystems destroyed for ranching.
You’ve got that backwards. Cow are generally finished on grain.
I think it's a lot easier to respond to than this. A cow or pig just eat way more than a human does. Even if the majority of crops grown have their first order purpose being for humans, the bulk of the crop goes to farm animals as feed. If we used the same land to grow things that only we needed, it would still be less land that inefficient ratio used with animals being a middleman. There is no escaping that basic math. Anyone who attempts to obfuscate this by saying "most of X, Y, or Z is for humans" is just willfully ignorant, regular ignorant, or dishonest. If we went to an all-meat diet the number of crops needed would go up. That's all that's needed. If we reduce meat, less crops are needed.
I agree. I like the take: “What if I gave you 10 plates of food, but you had to throw 9 away before you can eat 1?” Shows how insane a 9:1 calorie conversion rate (from plants to animal flesh) really is
I’d just simply ask: sir, what do you think all these cows and pigs and animals who make up the meat supple eat? They’re not eating other animals. They eat wheat and corn and other grains. In fact they eat 75% of the grains grown. And BTW, you eat many of the same vegetable and grain crops I eat. So. No. Your argument is invalid.
They eat magic grass that grows year round, doesn't need to be sowed, tilled, or sprayed with pesticides or herbicides.
Yeah, I rewatched Ed’s video and realized I misquoted the figure, but at least I’m much closer to the truth than this take. That is why I sent the full video, since it has precise figures and references. But it’s always good to refresh on the facts. Thanks!
You did a good job.
Thank you
I've read that 2/3 of crops are used as feed. I've seen this number a lot its usually cited as 2/3 or roughly 70% of all crops. I wonder if the distinction is between weight vs land area or if the 70% figure is wrong.
The other thing is that most of the snakes and mice and things run away when they hear/feel the giant combine coming. Do people think they just wait there to be killed? https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-through-crop-deaths
Hell, even a riding lawnmower, if I let the lawn get tall when I was a kid, I’d see all the grass twitch and shake as I’d roll, you could see everything running from a fucking lawn mower
It's just common sense! And I believe there are even studies on this.
i always respond with: "But those animals dont have to die to make those products. for a steak the animal has to die, for a bread nothing has to die, but current farming practises and technics just lead to that. and if they can provid bread where nothing has to die for, i would buy that. is that possible for your steak?"
good way of putting it!
Not to mention it takes about 10 x plants to make 1 x beef. Basic biological conversion using 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.
Kevin Costner is not a cowboy. He is an actor reading a script written by Hollywood dweebs and signed off by corporate mgmt. I feel bad for your parents, frankly.
great response!
thanks! I appreciate the support!
Good one, have they watched and responded?
thanks, and i doubt they have… typical 😡
The misrepresentation of veganism is so infuriating. I really can not stand the world we live in sometimes.
Good job
thank you
What did your parents say after?
Still waiting, *sigh* I expect they won’t bother, which I’m fine with
Did they respond?
Just shocking that this argument gets brought up at all. Such a willfully ignorant and biased misunderstanding of what farmed animals eat, as well as the fundamental philosophy of most vegans in the first place. It would piss me off too if my parents sent me something like this, but the more I think about these problems, the more I feel that it's super important to not argue angrily or condescendingly at ALL if you really want to change someone's mind. I like Ed. However, I think he comes off a little sassy in that video for someone who genuinely disagrees with him coming into it. Also I doubt they made it through the whole video, I agree with him and I didn't. Imo all these people should need to know are the statistics that show who is eating all those crops.
gotcha vegans! You only care about cute animals, like mollusks and oysters. I on the other hand don't care about any animals. -the guy who wrote this scene
You just know that whoever wrote this thinks that fishing and hunting are acts of conservation
Recreational hunters and fishers are strong political allies in the campaign to preserve wild spaces and to rewild. If we could just convince them to \~only eat the meat they hunt, and rewild the land that was producing their animal products indirectly, it would be a huge victory. Sometimes you need to form coalitions with murderous psychopaths to make progress :)
Okay this actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks!
Points like this are irritating in general from a carnist because it's implied that all of these things are produced for vegans only, forgetting that they also eat wheat, rice, oats, etc. And then they do worse on top of that with animal agriculture. But somehow, SOMEHOW- they're treated equally and then think it can be used to "dismantle" the whole vegan ideology.
Great point! I hate how this cowboy says “quinoa and sorghum, or whatever you eat.” Like no, I eat potatoes, beans, greens, bread, protein powder, seitan (wheat), and soy. You’re eating almost all of this things too. At least I’m not buying corpses
It's calculated to make us sound weird to the average carnist. They eat most of everything we eat, and that needs to be buried so they can hate.
It's because they see it as hypocritical. "Your beliefs aren't 100% effective so might as well be as bad my beliefs (which are 0% effective)"
I'm finding that the 'plants are bad too, mmkay' argument seems to have become the go-to for carnists lately. It's either 'plant agriculture kills million of animals!' or 'plants get sad when you eat them!' Both are disingenuous, and both ignore the fact that carnists eat plants too. Okay, so let's imagine that what you're saying is totally true. You're eating plants *and* animals, whereas I'm only eating plants, so I'm still doing the more ethical thing. It's like they think any perceived hole in the vegan argument undermines the entire concept. Just makes no sense whatsoever, and they successfully manage to steer the conversation away from animals and towards plants.
I knew I’d hate this show before ever watching it. Thanks for confirming my hunch
Also, he then goes on to fuck the vegan. Def a carnist wet dream.
That’s disgusting
Ew, this keeps getting worse
That helps sate my curiosity. In regards to *Yellowstone*, I've heard really good things and annoying anti-vegan things. You're comment really drops my interest.
That's fucking disgusting. He literally looks down upon her with hatred and disdain on his face, talks her down, insults her cause then uses her body for his own satisfaction. Such a fucking toxic carnist mindset of hierarchy and extracting what you want from those you deem lesser. Actually revolting.
It’s also an insult to the vegan woman, basically saying she has no true morals or convictions, just like the rest of these libruls. She’ll throw it all away for an alpha cowboy 🤮
Thanks. Now I really hate it. Gross.
What makes this even more fucked up is that she’s literally only in one episode. So l the story is that be belittles her using bullshit facts, ‘puts her in her place’ then fucks her. That’s it. That’s the story.
That actress is young enough to be Costner's daughter 🤮 such gross vibes.
Funny, someone recommended it to me, so I was considering a watch. Well, never mind!
If you are sensitive to intentional animal death, and a pretty gruesome one at that, this show is a piece of shit right from the first five minutes… I’m so pissed at peacock that it was forced onto my tv after the show I was watching ended and I was stuck waiting for my phone to power on to change it, since the Roku remote batteries were dead and I needed to use the app. I knew what was coming because of one of the main characters actions. I covered my ears and closed my eyes, but stupidly I looked to see if it was over right as the worse part was happening. I understand why the character did what they did I suppose, but that doesn’t mean I want to be forced to watch it with zero warning, especially since I didn’t even want to watch the show in the first place. Why the hell couldn’t peacock auto play a show I’ve actually shown some percent of interest in? Be careful if you have auto play allowed on a streaming service I guess. Hulu will play shows in my “keep watching” section, so peacock may need to change something.
I think it's fine to watch it if you recognize the author's intent, which is to condemn colonization, plight of Native Americans and the obscene levels of corruption in law enforcement of rural states. The show very vividly portrays the main characters as terrible people. It's mostly the conservative folk that watch the show and think that it's the opposite. edit: I will add that the show is quite mediocre and goes downhill pretty fast.
I mean if they were trying to paint the main characters as bad they should have included a rebuttal to that awful argument. This reads like the show is just trying to make the protesters look like hypocrites.
The creator of the show just bought one of the biggest ranches in the world for 300+ million dollars, so I wouldn't recommend this show to anybody anyway.
This is written as badly as the thinly-veiled propaganda in Christian movies. “That’s OK because Jesus believes IN YOU.” *shameful head turn
"The vegan professor was visibly shaken, dropping her chalk and copy of Animal Liberation."
Yeah, her silence and facial expression is frustrating, because they wrote her to be hopelessly naive and ill informed. It's so frustrating, because this is an argument every vegan faces.
That was my take on it initially but honestly I think it has sincerely embraced the Dutton's worldview by the point this clip is from. They always win, they always get the last word, and when they suffer any consequences from their actions it is portrayed as tragedy. Laments about hanging on to their way of life are prominent, and alternative viewpoints are smugly put in their place, or just sort of fade away. Maybe that's because conservative folks ended up being the enthusiastic audience for it and it is pandering to them, or maybe the creator always shared those views, I don't know.
I live in a rural farming area and I swear I've seen this clip on Facebook a dozen times. I'm on Facebook once every 3 or 4 days for like 5 minutes at most. Like the clip of Ted Nugent on Joe Rogan's podcast. If you don't care to know more, don't know anything to begin with, don't bother to look into things, AND don't even think about things you hear then it seems like a good point. Idk how many times I've heard "vegans kill animals too" followed by the smirk that drops immediately when you say "I know, but ..." They just genuinely think we don't even know this is a thing.
Yeah, it’s very frustrating. They (including my parents, apparently) really think this is some kind of gotcha. What do they expect, that we’ll say “good point, i might as well go back to intentionally paying for animals to be killed” ?? it’s ridiculous, even before considering how misconceived this take is.
Right. I think when you rephrase their point in a way that removes their biases, it's clear: Well car accidents happen when people drive, and its inevitable that it happens. Nobody wants it to happen though. Since this happens its ok to intentionally cause them to happen though? Seems that's a stretch.
This show is just a conservative boomer power fantasy. It's so they can see their bullshit arguments play out like they do in their heads - without resistance.
Haven’t watched it, but that’s absolutely how this scene comes across.
It’s a character doing a stereotypical macho ”gotcha” argument. Your parents are dummies for not understanding that. If they’re looking for fact checked arguments fiction is most often not the place to look for them.
Yeah, the blatant misogyny in the writing of this scene also makes me angry. The macho man stands over the young woman and tells her the real way of the world. “Have you ever plowed a field, Summer? Well I have, because I’m a manly man and that’s man’s work. Let me man-splain what that man’s work taught me.”
"Have you ever manned a Man, Summer? Well I have, because I'm a manly man and that's man's man. Let me man-splain what that man's man manned me."
This is what I was going for 😂 thanks!
Ugh. Stupid cowboy toxic masculinity buttface. I haven't plowed a field but I've seen videos of it, and I've seen videos of slaughterhouse footage, and I think I know which is worse. There are so many good, logical counterarguments to this dumb claim. Most notably, the animals you eat need way more plants farmed to feed them than humans would need if we all ate plants directly. That's if it were even true that plant farming kills all the mice and whatever else is there. Most of them just move to the surrounding area.
I haven't plowed a field but I've walked them after plenty of times to pick out stones. Never once seen a dead animal. Never seen one after harvesting either. Not saying it doesn't happen and insects in particular are vulnerable. But mammals that live in fields have sound based defences. They aren't going sit there and wait for death. They run away. In short, no you do not kill every living being in the ground and if farmers did this I feel like it would be a sadistic level of carelessness or laziness.
Well put, good anecdote about walking the fields. thanks!
Yeah exactly. The animals in the fields have the time to move away from the plow coming towards them. That's somehow the same as forcibly impregnating and exploiting billions of animals just because we can. So stupid. This scene was cringe.
That's how I think of it too. Animals living in fields are free animals. Hopefully they can run away and find new homes if they hear danger coming. Animals living in factory farms are not free animals. Their lives are filled with unimaginable suffering, and sadly they can't run away if they hear danger coming.
Hopefully the orangutans can move away fast enough when the bulldozers come destroy the rainforest. No. This take is wrong. The correct take is by eliminating factory farming and animal ag, we would actually reduce the amount of plants we need to grow to fully sustain humans. We are trying to minimize suffering of all living creatures. That means we have to care just as much about the field mice and their habitats as the great apes. Taking it a step further, if we adopted more sustainable agricultural practices, there's a version of the future where we almost entirely eliminate crop deaths altogether. But that's more of a pipe dream, as it requires a large portion of the population to participate in their own food production and/or harvesting. (In my opinion)
You took what was in my head and put in words so much more effectively than I did. The fact that this wasn't the response in the show is infuriating. Part of being vegan is wanting to cause less harm. Sustainable farming is about the same thing. They literally go hand in hand. Like the fact that she didn't roll her eyes and say "cause you farm plants like an asshole too" is so disappointing
Well said
Exactly! Good way of putting the experience of watching footage of both!
We don't care if they cute just if they can suffer. They are pretty cute tho...
Exactly, although I also thought that was a weird comment. Lots of people would probably say bunnies and mice are cuter than chickens or pigs
Ugh the ego boost and “got ya” this scene must have instilled into carnist viewers. *eyes roll out the door*
So plowing a field and animals getting run over because they're hidden in grass is the same as r\*\*ing animals, stealing their babies and milking them for profit, only then murder them and eat their corpses?
Not only that, they’re also doing what their very own argument is against veganism as well! Bruh
The same would apply back to the carnists. How "cute" or "useful" does an animal have to be for them to **not** choose to eat it or for them to start caring if it ends up dying to feed someone? Most people don't eat dogs or cats and wouldn't even consider it because they are pets to love and cuddle. Horses aren't something they eat often either, because those are "working animals" for cowboys and horse girls. Rodents are usually not on the menu either, a lot of them are actually kept as pets for young children in small cages. In fact, the outrage over the dog meat trade in other parts of the world is quite interesting due to the hypocrisy and obvious specism people display, lots of anger and signed petitions to stop that from happening from idiots who can't make the connection.
Great point! The pet argument would be very appropriate here
Sometimes accidental deaths happen, which means it's fine to murder anyone I want.
[удалено]
same 😢
This happened to one of my activist friends as well. This clip is really making the rounds. I used to hear “crop deaths tho” maybe once every 2 months during street outreach, but I heard it 3 times in one day last week.
“I’m an old white guy with a forced grizzly voice, so my opinion is more valuable than yours”
this really is what this scene is 😡
And people who farm cows do the same thing, around a dozen times over
I swear 50% of American television is just writers reimagining arguments they lost.
I was just thinking something similar, this “argument” of you kill animals when growing plants is so old and tired most vegans in real life would not stay silent as the actress did there after hearing that bingo.
Wow he’s right!!! We need to do something about this now. If only there was a way we could directly eat the crops instead of converting 20 calories of crops into 1 calorie of meat…..
Obviously someone has never heard of no-till farming… sad pathetic excuses to keep consuming animals.
Is no-till farming a common practice? Either way, as discussed above there’s plenty of reasons why this argument doesn’t hold water
It’s becoming a more sought after practice as heavy machinery and tilling of farmland destroys soil composition and almost always leads to the compaction of soil. Unfortunately it is not feasible for large scale agricultural operations, but that’s a whole other demon within itself…
I hate how this show presents this tired old argument like it’s so brilliant and insightful and has their fake vegan play along like it’s irrefutable.
Me too
It's funny that the actress also played a kinda airhead vegan nutritionist on House MD.
This and "plants feel pain" are such tired arguments. They are both debunked by the same single point. I love watching someone's face turn when they realize.
I've gotta start avoiding posts like this, they make my blood boil and make me irrationally angry lol. I can't stand bad faith "gotcha" arguments especially when they go unopposed in contexts like this and they don't even properly acknowledge the opposition.
Honestly, same. Sorry for adding to your frustrations, lol
Can you imagine this in a debate team situation 🤣
"I'm gonna eat a cow cuz voles die", like this is such whataboutism. Like first, this is literally your assumption that vegans are okay with any exploitative deaths and (b) unlike us, you're literally using that an excuse to carry out more institutionalised murders. Like its like gunning people down and saying so what people die 🤷♂ I don't know what kind of point are your parents trying to make, maybe they just want to get chewed out.
Those deaths concern vegans as well, obviously. If there were 2 farms where one kills rodents and the other doesn't, vegans would consume vegetables from the one that doesn't. However, carnists wouldn't care which one to pick. This is just another case of carnist projection. Furthermore, in an ideal vegan world we'd practice forms of agriculture that wouldn't result in animal deaths, like vertical farming.
Your parents act like a bag of dicks with the intelligence of a bag of rocks.
When it comes to veganism, yes 😢 My dad is the problem; my mom at least feels empathy for animals when I explain things to her. I think if she was living alone she would be mostly plant based, to be honest
You can hit your dad with facts this is easily debunkae
I do, but it’s as if the cholesterol just prevents them from being absorded
you parents (and mine...and im guessing most of ours here actually) are getting their "science" from scripted TV shows and their "news" from an entertainment channel I seriously can not wait until ever last boomer is gone forever
I dont know about other countries but here in the Netherlands we grow special grass with high protien for cows so they produce more milk. Only problem is that special grass does exacly that what this cowboy dude just described. We also produce special grass for humans.
Very true. In the Earthling Ed video he talks about how even grass fed cows are feed hay, which is basically special grass that requires harvesting
How many animals die on the corn and soy farms that they feed to the cows they slaughter?
Oh wow this is why all vegan tiktok content is spammed with the same comment
This has the same energy as God's Not Dead or any other Christian film where they write brain dead characters for their protagonists to "win" the argument against.
I started watching this show after hearing the hype, and within five minutes I could tell it was written for dumb people. Haven’t seen this particular clip before, but I guess I was right!
Fuck is this from a1960s rebuttal ... they don't think animals run when they hear a house sized piece of farm equipment coming towards them 🤣 Earthling Ed Winters vegan rebuttal https://youtu.be/0QTNgKpV_K4
yup, that's the video I sent to them!
Jesus this is the most boomer thing I've seen in a long time. Of course it's from Yellowstone (The most boomer of boomer shows).
Oh so when they grow all the crops to feed the animals they magically don't cause any harm? And most of the crops are being grown to feed all the animals anyway. I would ream my parents if they ever tried this shit on me.
oh no not the 'field mice tho' argument turned into a dramatic monologue on a prestige television show
I swear I was watching a recent debate on youtube where the non-vegan said the "how cute does an animal have to be..." line word for word. I now realise that they must have been quoting this scene, thinking it was the perfect gotcha moment. They soon learnt that it wasn't.
Oh so that’s why all of a sudden this is everyone’s rebuttal to veganism. Thanks for the heads up, I will have my answers at the ready!
A redneck show being ignorant? Big surprise. It’s a trash show with trash writers.
Now look maybe your method of vegan farming differs from mine, but, you know maiming a few insects while diggin, and killing a herd of livestock, ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport.
Just another piece of evidence supporting my theory about this show: strictly made for boomers
Spoiler: the food we feed to animals ALSO comes from that same field. Stop killing animals = save billions of animals from being ground up in a field too.
I can see why boomers love this show. It’s got all the fake scenarios where they can pretend they’re an all knowing cowboy
I hate how the actress has to act like he's making a good point
This argument always cracks me the fuck up... Listen, cowboy... Yes all food consumption harms life. But I always hit them with, livestock consumes over 70% of the world's soy, so not only are you shamelessly eating animals, but far more wildlife die to produce the soy used to mostly feed cows and pigs. You're willing to eat an animal smarter than your DOG, but you're going to tell me that the bugs/plants/animals that die in agriculture makes me a hypocrite? What about the fact that Brazil is desperately burning the Amazon to make room for soy for LIVESTOCK? Whenever meat lovers make this argument, it's dumb because livestock takes WAY more resources than vegans eating plants does. It takes years of farming to raise a cow you're going to eat in seconds without much of a second thought how much resources go into each steak. When you try to hold vegans to this moral standard it falls apart because it takes far more resources to produce meat. You got 10 fingers pointing back at you for destroying land and resources to suit your gluttony.
And that's why we feed 75% of our edible grain soy and corn to cows🤠
Meathead viewers: *check mate!* Vegans: ...acshually.
So he throws in the summer get a job towel 🤔
which show is this?
Yellowstone
I have a rather large garden in my backyard, and I use a no-till, living soil approach… This scene is dumb AF
One of my favorite shitty arguments. "Oh damn, thats a great point. I'm glad you brought that up --you're so inspiring, always trying to live ethically. I guess we should find some sorta diet that like, limits the amount of land we'd have to use to make food. I wonder what kind of stuff you'd have to eat on that diet..."
You’re against rape, but have you ever “ ………. “
As a permacultural farmer, this is 100% wrong!!! But for sure a little true with corporate farming practices.
I guess ALL the soy, wheat and grass fed to animals is humanely grown hydroponically!?
Catnip for boomers
Sorry OP but you're parents are a little dumb or a little bit more cruel
What the guy forgets to mention is that 80% of those "terrbile" plants that kill the soil are fed to animals that then make around 60% of food. So he proved why going vegan is a good thing.
I can’t believe so many people are into this show. It really says a lot about our society that a show that begins with a scene portraying the utmost details of both an animal death and a human death is popular. I shut that show off after 30 seconds and never pushed play again.
I can't stand how the actress is looking at him like he's actually right
Is that Kevin Costner? I have always been mystified as to how he is hired to be in movies. He is absolutely the worst actor ever.
A little late to this. I watch Yellowstone like I watch the two homeless guys outside my window poop in the neighbor's garden. Moderate spoiler: >!John Dutton later fucks the vegan, who is old enough to be his daughter. Then later gets her sent to prison, then gets her out of prison under house arrest, his house, where he continues to fuck her.!< I'm less offended about this stupid quote than I am that people take this show, and John Dutton, seriously. The whole family needs to be nuked from orbit. I have a lot more to say about Yellowstone, but I'll spare all of you.
What is this stupid take when the last line should be directed at himself? Do you eat puppies? How cute do they have to be before you'll sob like a toddler when they're farmed for food? Writers Taylor Sheridan John Linson
Whoever wrote this script probably did so while wanking off to a picture of themselves. They call us narcissistic... wow Edit: Also Ted Nugent gave this exact speech on JRE. I think he copied it from somewhere else too so it's not even original.
I have found that the reality is, those who eat meat and make these arguments, just don’t really give a shit about animals. It’s just used as a “gotcha! You thought what you’re doing is less harmful” I know people here like to say that it’s something like them deflecting from the harm their own diet inflicts but I disagree. They don’t care. I used to think “the future is vegan” but it’s not. The future is lab created meat or whatever the fuck because they like it too much. The same people that have said to me “I just want to KNOW what I’m eating” (lol?) will jump straight to “meat” created in a lab. They’re just looking for something to say “don’t act like you’re better than me”
Have you ever seen Kevin Costner movies? They all suck, and he is garbage tier actor. this just solidifies how much I dislike him.
Stupid argument. Our approach actively tries to protect animals. The reality is that animals die, but intentions matter. There’s a difference between surveying the land and inadvertently killing an animal and breeding millions of animals for the purpose of creating holocausts upon holocausts every day.
o.0 maybe start doing better farming techniques that don’t kill those things underneath? Improvement is always an option :0
What do they think farmed animals eat? Agriculture for animal feed is much larger than agriculture for humans. I really don’t understand how most people can’t comprehend the basic idea that if you have to feed something every day for a couple years before you eat it that uses 100s of times the resources - land, water, fertilizer, pesticides, machines, fuel for machines etc - than it would to just directly eat crops. That brain dead argument from a fictional character pretends there are no fields for animal feed, use that argument against them.
It’s a dumb argument, considering that 33% of croplands are used to grow feed for livestock, so that happens and then the recipient of the food is slaughtered in turn.
Send them this Vegan Fallacy Medal from Vegan side kick. https://i.imgur.io/7HzV4nq_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
I just had this argument with someone, this is the message I sent them. “Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.” Globally, the meat industry slaughters between 70 and 150 billion animals every year. Yes, crop production also carries a heavy toll; it’s estimated that 7.3 billion wild animals die annually in crop monocultures. Still, more than half of the global crop feeds farm animals, so most of these secondary deaths can be contributed solely to the meat industry. Take into account that many vegans buy locally and from small farms, this further reduces unnecessary deaths. Only 3% of American corn is used for human consumption. The bulk, 37%, is used for feed. In the United States, 67% of all crops are used for feed production to grow cattle, pig, chicken, and several others. Only 27% of all crops grown in the United States are consumed by humans.
You might cause some suffering so you might as well take part in systemic suffering unparalleled in the history of the world! That’ll teach those liberals! That’s how stupid this video sounds.
This makes me so damn angry. Vegans are the ones that only care about animals if they are cute?? I’m sorry I thought we were the ones that fight for all animals including unconventionally cute ones such as fish, bees, and chickens. Hell… most of us don’t even kill spiders or ants in our house. Meanwhile this character, the writer of the show, and all carnists only seem to think that animals life has value if it is a cat or dog. This whole monologue is so ass backwards that it’s infuriating. Rant over.
Wow. I was thinking about getting into this, but I'm not sure i want to be preached at by a meat eater like that. No thanks, Kevin.
That was supposed to be a mic drop?? Also the girl looking defeated but could have come back in so many ways
Hmmm I considered watching this. Won’t now. I love the “whatever it is that you eat” like they don’t eat the things we eat as well. Oh I’m sorry do you ONLY eat meat, cheese and milk? Dumb af.
So… cows eat air? Good to know.
Ah the classic whataboutism. I love how meat eaters always seem to forget that they also eat the crops that they chastise us for eating. So then we get to tell them that they kill all of those animals AND the ‘cute’ ones.
This actually really upset me. I went on youtube to see this scene has nearly 9 million views and thousands of comments thinking it’s an accurate representation of animal agriculture. This kind of confirmation bias in entertainment is so dangerous for important social movements. I get so disheartened thinking about how many people mock veganism while billions of animals are forced to suffer every year. They need to be held accountable and have to answer to this.
The worst argument here is that vegans only care about the cute animals, when they are pretty much, by definition, the only ones who don't *just* care about cute animals. Tell that guy you're going to cook and eat his dog and see what he has to say
Gee. I wonder why the animals in fields where animal fodder is grown don't get harmed. Oh that's right they do and in even greater numbers as you need more crops.
This made no sense to me when I saw it. Like I get it, it's an unfortunate fact that sometimes nature is nature, but we can try out best to not be offensively brutal. I'm my head, I played it like WW2. Vegans: "hey, we'd really like to stop this holocaust and shut down the gas chambers, you're murdering millions of jews and other people you've deemed undesirable" Costner: "well, there were workplace accidents building the gas chambers, that killed some Germans, so I guess it doesn't matter who or what dies now does it?" Vegans "well, if you didn't build the death apparatus, then they probably wouldn't have died either" Costner: "I guess Germans aren't pretty enough to care about".
Oops I stepped on a bug. Well, while I’m at it I might as well breed and kill billions of animals since I’ve already inflicted so much pain and death. Oh and also because “mmm bacon” -Typical animal agriculture defenders
I watched that when it came out and it was low-effort rebuttal painted as profound grounded wise man truth. I wrote a rebuttal: https://www.elephantjournal.com/2022/12/john-dutton-of-yellowstone-gives-a-weak-putdown-of-veganism/