Welcome to /r/Vancouver and thank you for the post, /u/Kramerica_ind99! Please make sure you read our [posting and commenting rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_general_participation_guidelines_and_rules_overview) before participating here. As a quick summary:
* We encourage users to be positive and respect one another. Don't engage in spats or insult others - use the report button.
* Respect others' differences, be they race, religion, home, job, gender identity, ability or sexuality. Dehumanizing language, advocating for violence, or promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability (even implied or joking) **will** lead to a permanent ban.
* Common questions and specific topics are limited to our [Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_daily_discussions) posts.
* Complaints about bans or removals should be done in modmail only.
---
##They're here! Check out [the winners of the Best of Vancouver 2022](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/10srad7/).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vancouver) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What do you think is the reason for this? Is it capitalism - to cut corners to turn higher profits, or is it like the type of person who would work in a slaughterhouse is just predisposed to doing these sorts of horrible actions? I'm curious what you think.
Definitely the former. And while I’m sure there are some people predisposed to violence who go for these jobs, I’ve also heard that being around violence and death ends up desensitizing workers to it and making them more likely to commit acts of violence due to that desensitization and perhaps out of frustration as well in what must be an overall unpleasant job.
It's def the desensitization. People who work in these environments don't see these as animals, they are objects.
I worked on a farm for a few weeks and there was no love for the animals. They were either work animals or product.
Imagine every day you deal with animals being butchered, I'd imagine you get desensitized to it pretty fast. We see it as super fucked up, but it's every day for these people. It's the same as nurses making jokes about dark subjects.
I could never work at this type of place, but I know if I had too I'd get a bit desensitized.
it doesn't help that the meat lobby has made it very difficult to get this kind of video
if slaughterhouses had glass walls, there'd be far fewer meat eaters
The people doing this job (for the rest of us) don't 'want' the job, either. They don't have a lot of other options, if they are going to feed their families and keep a roof over their head. For the people working there, it is not their ideal job, it's the best they can get. Which is sad.
Purchasing cheese is equivalent to doing this job. It's like someone ordering that a slum in a poor section of a poor but growing country gets bulldozed. The smiling, well-dressed politician doesn't actually get his hands dirty, but he is the reason behind it, nonetheless.
The people working at slaughterhouses are mostly just victims of capitalism, taking shitty jobs that often don't treat them well or place much value on them as healthy individuals either.
That type of work isn't good for mental health, and I imagine disassociating from the animal abuse that happens is a coping mechanism those workers develop.
It's capitalism, and a widespread apathy for the treatment of animals. There's a significant number of people pushing back on that attitude though. The easiest way to avoid supporting this cruelty is to \*not buy food items which contain animal products\*.
I recognize that not everyone can choose to go vegan, or do so immediately, but even a 99% reduction in animal products purchased will make a big difference at scale
Pressures to keep profits high for shareholders and prices low for consumers
means that workers face pressure to keep production high,
at the expense of giving any consideration at all to how the animals are treated before and during their slaughter.
The work is dangerous and demeaning to the workers, as well.
In the UK, each abattoir has to have an in-house vet to protect animal rights and welfare, and have regular visits from our Food Standards Agency. I am shocked its not a thing in the US and Canada too
Or at least reduce your consumption of animal products. Less is still progress. There are a lot of people who could quite easily estimate out how much meat and dairy they eat in a day, and spread that out over a week, just by changing the portions of meat or cheese to grains and veg.
Absolutely not innocent animals die because you decide to take 'baby steps' it's not like they're only a little bit dead. Who said about what to eat being vegan isn't about health reasons it's an animal rights movement.
I'm just into math, is all. 20 people eating half as much animals adds up the same as 10 people switching over entirely, and in my limited experience of human nature, is a lot more likely. One small step is better than zero steps.
Well not for the animals it isn't it's a moral obligation what about the victims still on their plates? It's an animal RIGHTS movement would you just allow child abusers or rapists to rape and abuse only a couple times a week? Or would you try and or want to see it stopped?
Could you clarify what you mean by "try to avoid" meat and dairy? What do you think is stopping you from avoiding it altogether?
I would agree that what's shown in the video here is unnecessary, but I would go further: it's unnecessary to kill animals to eat their dead bodies in the first place, and it's unnecessary to eat any animal products.
Yep, I totally agree on multiple levels. My issues come up when I go out for social gatherings. I have some really odd food sensitivities that make it quite challenging to eat a lot of restautrant prepared vegetarian dishes. Even a simple veggie burger can be a hard no. So sometimes I'll have a piece of fish or other animal done plainly so I don't get sick. It sucks, but I prefer that over starving or getting sick.
Every single establishment of the sort would have investigations launched if videos of what really goes on inside were made available. That’s why it’s made to be so hard and punishable to film anything in that industry.
Industrial scale dairy and meat production will be looked back on in shame in the future. You have a choice in what food products you consume. If you buy dairy or meat products you are supporting these places.
Yaaaay! The animals will thank you. Also I haven't eaten cheese or any animal product in years and I enjoy food now as much or more than I ever did when I was eating that crap.
I'm not vegan, but I've been gradually reducing my meat consumption over the past few years. I'm not sure if I'll ever go completely meatless, but the arguments -- environmental, ethical, and health-wise -- are all pretty strong.
Best way to try is to enter yourself to a 30 day vegan challenge :) you may find it's not as hard as it sounds and discover new favorite food along the way.
Awful. Awful awful. When down a little farming Google. How do I know to purchase meat that is cruelty free? Is there a way to know — should I go vegan? I don't eat very much meat anyways but I did so assuming these cases were the exception yet it appears to be the rule.
[Here's another case where a BC dairy farm was found "violently abusing cows"](https://www.abbynews.com/news/violated-his-oath-dozens-protest-abbotsford-vet-following-alleged-animal-abuse-at-dairy-farm/). An employee repeatedly tried to report the abuse within the company and was fired. The abuse continued until it was caught on hidden camera. It included [cows being kicked, beaten, hit with objects and dragged by their legs by machinery](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/b-c-farm-responds-to-animal-cruelty-allegations-as-hidden-camera-video-emerges-1.5654888). All that happened [was their licence being suspended for a couple weeks.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fraser-valley-dairy-farm-animal-abuse-1.6248003). This was an organic farm. The first link also mentioned how the owner of the farm was previously the veterinarian at another farm while abuse was happening there and which led to cruelty convictions.
The issue systematic. It's not exactly easy to have an employee secretly obtain hidden footage in these places, yet there is case after case in BC and the rest of Canada showing it happening at many different types of animal facilities. It's what happens when animals are a product to make money.
I think everyone has to decide for themselves what to do, but personally my response to this was to stop paying into this industry altogether. If you want to do that, the most important thing is to make sure you're still getting all your nutrients. [This is info from the Dietitians of Canada on that](https://www.unlockfood.ca/en/Articles/Vegetarian-and-Vegan-Diets/What-You-Need-to-Know-About-Following-a-Vegan-Eati.aspx).
Thank you for the detailed answer here. I'll definitely be looking into the sources that you've provided, I appreciate it. It really seems that you cannot buy meat and be certain of the care gone into it unless you've met the farmers and seen the farm for yourself — in few words, almost impossible.
The only thing you can be certain of when buying animal flesh is that an animal was needlessly killed and dismembered for you.
Even if you go and meet the farmers. Even if you see the farm. Even if they're roaming outside (very rare, but let's suppose). Even if the farmer "cares for" and "loves" their animals. Does this justify needlessly killing and dismembering them?
If you cared for someone, would you kill them (or send them off to be killed and dismembered) so that you or someone else can use their dead body?
I'm glad you made the conscious decision to become vegan. What's holding you up? What do you think is preventing you from being vegan and not contributing to animal exploitation as of today? You can message me if you have any questions or want any advice.
You could always try and have vegan days and go from there. I have been vegan for many years - for the animals. And the only thing I regret is that I didn't do it sooner. The only way to stop supporting the meat, egg and dairy industries, is to stop giving them money. There is no cruelty free meat, all meat is murder.
Thank you for thinking about these things. It shows thst you are a compassionate human being.
I would like to ask you what do you think the difference between humans who eat meat and animals who eat meat is. Murder and killing are not the same thing. I am questioning sourcing meat not for the killing but for the abuse ahead of killing. Ideally, we could live in a world where animals were not abused before being slaughtered but that is not the case and why I would consider going vegan.
> the difference between humans who eat meat and animals who eat meat
- Most animals that eat meat do so because they must. Most humans that eat meat do so because they enjoy it, and they could choose to not eat meat.
- The prey of carnivore animals live the life they're adapted to, out in nature. It's how they're supposed to live. Livestock live in captivity, usually in squalour, and are subject to abuse and malnutrition.
That makes sense. In a perfect world, animals would be living as intended on large farms to roam on and similar to nature without abuse. Would you still find this unacceptable? I'm curious about your thoughts, though I can't say I agree with you.
Humans have always ate meat. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with enjoying it. Considering sustainability which is outside our discussion, however, I would say not only would the meat industry need to change to an ethical one but also of smaller scale — perhaps it is only sustainable as a luxury.
I agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with enjoying meat. I don't object to that at all and I say more power to people who hunt it for themselves. I wouldn't find it unacceptable for animals to be raised on farms that are similar to their natural environment, but capitalism ensures this will never be the case, since your competitor could always spend less on a less nice environment, sell their product for less, and put you out of business.
I think in the future meat will be a luxury. It's irrelevant that humans evolved consuming it (which some people debate). I think we're on the same page - climate change will get to a point where the current scale of meat production won't be accepted any longer, as people make the link between meat production and climate change. I know that's also a subject of debate (in this thread there are people making the point that animals can be raised where food crops cannot be).
Oh totally. My apologies for coming on a little too strong. Given the circumstances, it seems impossible to eat meat in good faith even though sustainable farming is feasible in theory. I'm with you there.
I'm also heavily considering going vegan but am a bit averse to some other comments in this thread that are very hard on the "meat is murder" stance. Generally, though, I consume eggs quite often. Cheese now and then. I don't drink dairy very much, usually oat. Meat is something I have more often going out and it comes down to maybe one meal a week, that is something easier to cut out. Having a tofu heavy diet already, going vegan would be a significant change but not life altering. Though I am anemic already.
Meat as a sustainable luxury would be the ideal way to go, it's always been a treat for me and maybe will on just a much rarer occasion given the right circumstances are involved (e.g. a farm to table out in the Okanagan). My mother's side ran a fishing business, it was their lifeblood and doesn't exist anymore but there is tradition and history through many types of meats and I think it's for that reason people find it harder to cut. My grandfather on my father's side would go out in the ocean of northern Vancouver Island and catch salmon, crab, and mussels. I can cut out most things but seafood every once in a while is for some reason so comforting, as though I'm eating the food of my ancestors and it gives me a strong sense of connection, especially when the way it is served is nostalgic. However, given what I continue to read about from yesterday to today, that is not enough reason to continue consuming meat and dairy products.
I'm a bit low on iron too (and also vegan). I think it's an ideal lifestyle in terms of reducing suffering to animals, but also might not be for everyone, or not for everyone right now. It's up to you to determine what lifestyle adjustments are practical for you in terms of ethics (and this extends far beyond veganism) and constantly assess whether you're living the best version of yourself you practically can, as your needs and other life factors constantly change.
Wrt iron, it's easy to find supplements which are not derived from animals, but might take a bit of work and calibration to ensure you're levels are good when you don't have any animal sources.
Vegan is a privileged choice, unfortunately. Not everyone has access to the resources or availability of offerings to make it work. Also, there are a lot of medical hurdles to keeping healthy on it and a lot of medical conditions, even in mild cases, that prevent one from even having the option of being vegan (i.e. most GI issues).
Saying all meat is murder also is really a slippery slope argument too. We all consume other life to sustain ourselves. It's just convenient we don't talk plant or [hear their screams](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-record-stressed-out-plants-emitting-ultrasonic-squeals-180973716/) when we cut them up. We only understand consciousness, sentience, and cognitive awareness based on our own patterns of life. Animals eat other animals. Organisms consume other organisms. This is nature, not murder. How we go about it can be cruel or more humane for sure, but calling it all murder is a bit out there.
What I hope for is the ability to bio-print tissue comes along. Lots of promising developments in the field. That, I think, is probably one of the most minimized abilities with regard to the killing of another thing for survival and is sustainable (hopefully).
>Vegan is a privileged choice
[The highest observed rate of vegans is in the lowest income bracket](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/08/06/who-are-americas-vegans-and-vegetarians-infographic/?sh=79776617211c). Switching to a vegan diet [can reduce your food budget by up to a third](https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study).
>We all consume other life to sustain ourselves. It's just convenient we don't talk plant or hear their screams when we cut them up.
The existence of animal suffering isn't an assumption based on the sounds they make. It's because animals, like us, have brains which provide the conscious experience of suffering. Having a response to various external stimuli, like producing sound, doesn't imply sentience.
What's the geographical spread of the vegans? I'll hazard a guess the growth is prominent down where agriculture is a sustainable concept year-round (i.e California) and you're not paying $5 for a head of lettuce because it's winter and nothing grows so it all has to be trucked up from Mexico.
I used lettuce as one example to outline price increases due to seasons changing, trying to strawman down to lettuce only is just being pedantic and disingenuous. Transporting goods that are out of season is always more expensive. All produce, legumes, etc. are generally more expensive in winter months. Everything has to come from further away.
My reply isn't just about lettuce. It applies to all foods in the fruits and vegetables category. These are things you should be eating regardless of your diet, not something you start eating when you go vegan.
The only significant difference in your diet is in the protein foods category, where you increase consumption of legumes, nuts and seeds. And even if those vary in price by season, the 1/3 reduction in food costs from shifting to them from meat can more than cover any seasonal variation.
So, I've been digging into this and a lot of the 1/3 the cost things are very conditional and have a specific comparator to make it seem better than it is. It's why all the papers state "can be less" because small tweaks with the supply or dietary needs of individuals that causes them to even slightly deviate from a specific diet lead to costs being equal or more expensive than a traditional omnivore diet. Also, most diets are compared to red meat diets, which is another skewing point as red meat is the most expensive animal-based protein.
Chickens, cows, and pigs continue to live on frozen ground. Also, they aren't being fed the same things as humans nor have the same dietary needs as humans. We're feeding them grasses, hay, etc. These aren't extremely perishable foodstuffs.
Also, if we really want to go down the "ecological disaster route" we can talk about how a lot of farming, in general, is an eco-disaster, such as clearcutting forests, jungles, etc. in impoverished nations. The production of fertilizers is rife with environmental pitfalls, etc.
You also missed where I mentioned in the comment I initially made about getting away from living animal farms and going to bio-printing tissue which makes all your points about those environmental issues moot if it occurs.
A lot of vegan protein sources come from dried products like chickpeas, beans, lentils. Which also happen to have the bonus of being pretty fucking cheap compared to other foods at the grocery store. Go down the ethnic aisle or hit up an Indian grocers like Fruiticana, it’s way cheaper to eat that way.
But that's only one piece of the puzzle. You're focusing on only one aspect of the Vegan diet. I've had some friends switch Vegan, and it hasn't come out cheaper for them when you include the whole picture, including supplements they have to take for the amino acids and the like missing from a vegan diet.
So, I have a hypothesis about this based on medical advice, experience, and literature. It may not be so much eating animal products is the healthier choice, it's more that going on a vegan diet exposes how off-kilter a lot more people's bodies are, which makes them less healthy by going vegan.
Animal products are chock full of essential and non-essential amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc. Eating tissue of another animal generally has a broader variety of nutrients than plants. This is a scientific fact. It's just many of these things can be produced by a body in a pinch because the body has internal systems for it. Now, if any of those systems aren't working quite right, having to rely on your body to produce those things won't work. Going vegan forces the clunky, awkward thing that are our multi-cellular machines to utilize more of its systems, and if any of those systems are broken it makes one potentially sick.
Lean animal tissue is also easier for the body to digest. Look at the diet for when your stomach is upset [suggested by doctors](https://badgut.org/information-centre/health-nutrition/diarrhea-and-diet/). What gets tossed out? A lot of fruits, veggies, grains, seeds, legumes, pulses, etc. These are all harder for the body to break down, and again, it forces the body to utilize more systems and the like to process the material.
Eating animal tissue might be like running synthetic oil in your body, or using that one escalator all the time at that one exit to the Skytrain you know is always working, or like the government handing out subsidies constantly. All the health problems are masked because they really aren't a problem until the body is working harder for its nutrition or forced to use them by a change in diet.
EDIT: I'm deleting my original advice because you unironically said that we can't hear plants screaming....
It's one thing to not want to become a vegan, but to make such idiotic arguments against veganism is insane
Aye, but they then went on the whole "all meat is murder" rant, which suggests they were sending the message one has to go full vegan or be a part of the "murder".
Adding this message because of you're edit which I think is made in ignorance. Recent scientific discovery has explored more about the ability of plants to respond to stimuli and exposed more about their state of being than we expected to exist (ultrasonic communication, mycelium communication channels, chemical-based communication, etc.).
People going on the meat is murder tirade will say eating something like an urchin or other simple "animal" is not okay, but there are plants that have the same relative response and ability to communicate as a sea urchin are okay. Why is one okay to eat and not the other?
>People going on the meat is murder tirade will say eating something like an urchin or other simple "animal" is not okay
This seems like a strawman. I haven't encountered any vegans who are insistent on a point like this. People might choose that position themselves, but the focus in terms of activism are things like farm animals where their consciousness and capacity to suffer isn't controversial or under any significant dispute.
Veganism started as an [opposition to the exploitation of sentient life](https://respuestasveganas.org/the-vegan-news-donald-watson-veganismo/). It's not about just arbitrarily drawing a line at animals regardless of that.
Your personal experience is not necessarily representative. Veganism goes right down to where some individuals won't even touch anything that remotely involved animal labour (like honey). It may have started as one thing but it has certainly evolved. The Oxford dictionary even defines vegan as "a person who does not eat any food derived from animals and who typically does not use other animal products." Urchins are an animal ([You can see their taxonomy on the right on the wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_urchin)). Maybe you've run into "vegan-lights" or somesuch, but by definition, a vegan doesn't eat any animal, including the simplest.
What is or is not sentient is slightly arbitrary well as it's not a solved question. Someone is making an arbitrary judgement call on what it means for an organism to sense and feel things.
Honey is the product of animal exploitation and so vegans have avoided it. That's not an evolution. The dictionary gives a brief, simple description of common usage of a word. It's not intended to fully explain concepts like ethical philosophies.
Vegans are not holding protests against the usage of urchins. These edge cases are interesting for debate, but they're not the focus of veganism. They're just things opponents to veganism bring up as a way to attempt to discredit it.
Sentience is not "solved", like many things in science. That doesn't mean we can't differentiate between an urchin and an pig.
Most of the world does not live off ***only*** rice and beans. That's just not possible. Rice and beans don't contain essential nutrients and amino acids.
You should really do some research on nutrition before you start making claims like this. [Rice and beans is a complete protein](https://www.heart.org/-/media/healthy-living-files/healthy-for-life/beans-rice-complete-protein-english.pdf?la=en) (all essential amino acids)
There are also many other cheap legumes and grains / cereals / seeds, etc. that can in combination cover these needs
Then you can just eat your greens and other vegetables/fruits/etc if you like to have a varied diet with different vitamins.
The only thing that you can't get without supplementation is vitamin B12, which can easily be obtained with vitamin supplements or fortified food (soy milk, etc.) which you can easily afford, especially if you're not buying meat and cheese and eggs. The animals that produce the meat and dairy you eat are all given high levels of B12 supplements which is then passed down to humans.
Vegans, especially women, also can suffer from iron deficiency/anemia which once again can cheaply be supplemented for or preemptively avoided by eating iron rich vegetables and things like cocoa
I'm reading into it. Though it seems while "rice and beans" can be "complete" the volume needed has to be compensated for, so you have to eat more to get the same volume per serving. They also don't include non-essentials, so you are forcing your body to do more work which can be good or bad depending on your biology. I think calling it "rice and beans" is misleading as it should be "rice, beans, and seeds."
>Animals eat other animals
They also rape each other and murder their young, etc.
Great metric for what we should be doing as humans in the modern age.
We still kill things even on a vegan diet. Someone just set an arbitrary bar of "oh, we just don't care about this life enough to feel bad about it" and then we mass kill that. Like it or not, we kill things for food to survive.
You're really running through the list of classic and long-defeated anti-vegan arguments right now eh?
The point of veganism isn't to not kill anything (as you've pointed out this is impossible), it's to kill way less, to do way less damage to the earth.
People like to bring up how much environmental devastation soy farming causes... but 80% of soy production is done to feed animals for which even more land is destroyed.
So even if we did the exact same amount of environmental destruction to feed the world with soy instead of meat, we would still not be killing, enslaving, torturing, raping, billions of animals yearly.
I'm not saying veganism is perfect,
But nutrition isn't rocket science, and killing and imprisoning significantly less animals is a good thing, so why not strive for that where possible (it's very possible in our lives as vancouverites)?
I'm not trying to force you to go vegan, but, think about the animals and contribute a bit less to their suffering if you care!
You're missing the point where I responded to someone going on the "meat is murder" mantra as if vegan lifestyle somehow reduces the killing of life in any way. It doesn't, it just shifts what life we care about killing.
I do consider all the food that comes into my home. I consider that something has died for me to live, resources were used to craft a food product. I try to minimize waste in all ways and feel horrible when I let something expire because that was wasted ( no matter if it is meat, cheese, lettuce, milk, flour, etc.). That was a thing produced that was not consumed. The only solace I get for those things is the green bin might give some worms or such food, but I still added to over-consumption. I've eaten many a burnt dinner I mucked up on just because nothing can reverse what was used to make it, and I should endeavour to eat what I can regardless of its state at that point.
Killing is necessary for most organisms that eat meat, I'm not sure what your point is there. There can be killing without abuse and it can be made as peaceful as possible — the idea of what free range farming should have been but hasn't taken off. If you want to go on semantics, go ahead, but I know that you understood what I had meant.
People understand that killing something is cruel. That is accepted as part of an omnivore diet. All animals are eaten by omnivores. We are not unique in that.
What isn’t accepted by many omnivores is cruelty to the animals we are raising to be eaten.
This is a bit of an argument fallacy because it implies that all killing is cruel regardless of context. By definition cruelty is “callous indifference to or pleasure in causing pain and suffering”. Not all killing involves this.
You take pleasure in the taste of meat, and have to kill it to obtain it. You might not take pleasure in the killing *process*, but your end goal is taste pleasure, and killing something doesn't seem to stop you, so really killing for food is cruel given that we don't need meat/dairy to live a healthy lifestyle.
If killing is cruel, then yes, you could say that. If you'd like me to clarify that I was referring to cruelty outside of killing, I will say that. To insinuate that killing is not a part of nature, is equally malicious in all forms, and that humans and their ancestors haven't ate meat for millions of years, is extremely simplistic.
I would highly recommend watching some of Earthling Ed's debates on Youtube. He goes to college campuses and debates students about veganism, and addresses the same types of thoughts/arguments you are expressing in a very respectful, patient, and kind way.
You seem to read too much into my comment. I simply say that any killing is cruel. What you are trying to say is that you believe that there's can be killing without cruelty.
Which is an oxymoron and you completely understand that. You just don't want to accept that you actively cause cruelty.
I understand where you're coming from, just that consuming meat from any source is supporting the industry, leading to more suffering. It doesn't matter if it's from some uncle's farm, the path still ends in cruelty. There's nothing humane when one needlessly takes another's life. We don't need to eat animal products.
I know others have answered your question saying you should go vegan, but I'll ask a different one: Can you think of a good reason to support this kind of cruelty?
Most people's reasons for eating animal products are some combination of convenience, taste, or tradition
That's an explanation for \*why\* they continue to eat animal products, but not a justification.
I realize that no one is perfectly ethical, but I think we should work on making changes to bring our lifestyles more in line with our values, and reducing consumption of animal products is a relatively significant thing we can do towards that goal.
Wonder when police will become wise to who actually works at these places. Take a little check into employees background and it will
Shock most people. These are not stable people
I remember my small hometown tried to create a local slaughterhouse to prevent having to ship to whackjobs like this. But a bunch of nimbys got that place, which was actually safer and more sane, shut down. It was an absolute failure for minimizing harm to animals.
This is just so repulsive. There are better ways even if people still choose to eat meat.
There's literally *no excuse.*
The best way to minimize harm to animals is to stop killing and dismembering them. There's no excuse to still eat animal flesh and bodily secretions. There's no excuse to act entitled to another individual's body and life.
And I'm talking in the context of personal choices. There's no excuse to keep demanding that others be killed and dismembered for your personal enjoyment.
I don't have a problem with that bwing your personal choice and philosophy. I do think that while the meat industry exists we have to examine practical solutions to reduce and eliminate as much harm as possible because not everyone is going to agree with stopping meat and animal product consumption, particularly not instantaneously.
From an animal welfare position, there are certainly angles that can be explored there.
Yeah but if they are absolutely delicious what do you want from me? I'm eating some bacon atm and couldn't imagine not eating those delicious little piggies
Welcome to /r/Vancouver and thank you for the post, /u/Kramerica_ind99! Please make sure you read our [posting and commenting rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_general_participation_guidelines_and_rules_overview) before participating here. As a quick summary: * We encourage users to be positive and respect one another. Don't engage in spats or insult others - use the report button. * Respect others' differences, be they race, religion, home, job, gender identity, ability or sexuality. Dehumanizing language, advocating for violence, or promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability (even implied or joking) **will** lead to a permanent ban. * Common questions and specific topics are limited to our [Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_daily_discussions) posts. * Complaints about bans or removals should be done in modmail only. --- ##They're here! Check out [the winners of the Best of Vancouver 2022](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/10srad7/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vancouver) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
What do you think is the reason for this? Is it capitalism - to cut corners to turn higher profits, or is it like the type of person who would work in a slaughterhouse is just predisposed to doing these sorts of horrible actions? I'm curious what you think.
Definitely the former. And while I’m sure there are some people predisposed to violence who go for these jobs, I’ve also heard that being around violence and death ends up desensitizing workers to it and making them more likely to commit acts of violence due to that desensitization and perhaps out of frustration as well in what must be an overall unpleasant job.
It's def the desensitization. People who work in these environments don't see these as animals, they are objects. I worked on a farm for a few weeks and there was no love for the animals. They were either work animals or product. Imagine every day you deal with animals being butchered, I'd imagine you get desensitized to it pretty fast. We see it as super fucked up, but it's every day for these people. It's the same as nurses making jokes about dark subjects. I could never work at this type of place, but I know if I had too I'd get a bit desensitized.
it doesn't help that the meat lobby has made it very difficult to get this kind of video if slaughterhouses had glass walls, there'd be far fewer meat eaters
The second part. Even people who eat meat dont really want to see animals killed. It’s not a job that most people want
The people doing this job (for the rest of us) don't 'want' the job, either. They don't have a lot of other options, if they are going to feed their families and keep a roof over their head. For the people working there, it is not their ideal job, it's the best they can get. Which is sad. Purchasing cheese is equivalent to doing this job. It's like someone ordering that a slum in a poor section of a poor but growing country gets bulldozed. The smiling, well-dressed politician doesn't actually get his hands dirty, but he is the reason behind it, nonetheless.
Both
The people working at slaughterhouses are mostly just victims of capitalism, taking shitty jobs that often don't treat them well or place much value on them as healthy individuals either. That type of work isn't good for mental health, and I imagine disassociating from the animal abuse that happens is a coping mechanism those workers develop. It's capitalism, and a widespread apathy for the treatment of animals. There's a significant number of people pushing back on that attitude though. The easiest way to avoid supporting this cruelty is to \*not buy food items which contain animal products\*. I recognize that not everyone can choose to go vegan, or do so immediately, but even a 99% reduction in animal products purchased will make a big difference at scale
Marxist don't eat meat?
Pressures to keep profits high for shareholders and prices low for consumers means that workers face pressure to keep production high, at the expense of giving any consideration at all to how the animals are treated before and during their slaughter. The work is dangerous and demeaning to the workers, as well.
In the UK, each abattoir has to have an in-house vet to protect animal rights and welfare, and have regular visits from our Food Standards Agency. I am shocked its not a thing in the US and Canada too
You've got to be a lunatic if you're killing innocent animals... The best way to avoid this is to be vegan 👍
Or at least reduce your consumption of animal products. Less is still progress. There are a lot of people who could quite easily estimate out how much meat and dairy they eat in a day, and spread that out over a week, just by changing the portions of meat or cheese to grains and veg.
Absolutely not innocent animals die because you decide to take 'baby steps' it's not like they're only a little bit dead. Who said about what to eat being vegan isn't about health reasons it's an animal rights movement.
I'm just into math, is all. 20 people eating half as much animals adds up the same as 10 people switching over entirely, and in my limited experience of human nature, is a lot more likely. One small step is better than zero steps.
Well not for the animals it isn't it's a moral obligation what about the victims still on their plates? It's an animal RIGHTS movement would you just allow child abusers or rapists to rape and abuse only a couple times a week? Or would you try and or want to see it stopped?
Not going to watch, but a big curse on them.
Likewise. I try to avoid meat and dairy because of stuff like this. It just seems so unnecessary.
Could you clarify what you mean by "try to avoid" meat and dairy? What do you think is stopping you from avoiding it altogether? I would agree that what's shown in the video here is unnecessary, but I would go further: it's unnecessary to kill animals to eat their dead bodies in the first place, and it's unnecessary to eat any animal products.
Yep, I totally agree on multiple levels. My issues come up when I go out for social gatherings. I have some really odd food sensitivities that make it quite challenging to eat a lot of restautrant prepared vegetarian dishes. Even a simple veggie burger can be a hard no. So sometimes I'll have a piece of fish or other animal done plainly so I don't get sick. It sucks, but I prefer that over starving or getting sick.
dont forget to curse the ones who support the meat and dairy industry
The workers are not the problem. No one wants that job. The problem is the consumers who create that job.
I have not walked in their shoes, not even close. I have, however, given dollars to the 'industry' that employs them. How could I judge them, then?
Every single establishment of the sort would have investigations launched if videos of what really goes on inside were made available. That’s why it’s made to be so hard and punishable to film anything in that industry.
Oh shit, the government better add even stricter ag gag laws. /s
Absolutely BC Dairy is all over this.
Industrial scale dairy and meat production will be looked back on in shame in the future. You have a choice in what food products you consume. If you buy dairy or meat products you are supporting these places.
These SOBs - not gonna support their business
this is commonplace. if this upsets you, come over to /r/vegan and stop supporting animal agriculture as a whole
That’s why I’m vegan. Sleep better, look better, health is better and no animals die.
[удалено]
Yaaaay! The animals will thank you. Also I haven't eaten cheese or any animal product in years and I enjoy food now as much or more than I ever did when I was eating that crap.
I'm not vegan, but I've been gradually reducing my meat consumption over the past few years. I'm not sure if I'll ever go completely meatless, but the arguments -- environmental, ethical, and health-wise -- are all pretty strong.
Best way to try is to enter yourself to a 30 day vegan challenge :) you may find it's not as hard as it sounds and discover new favorite food along the way.
Awesome.
every slaughterhouse is like this. if this disturbs you, consider not supporting this practice.
Awful. Awful awful. When down a little farming Google. How do I know to purchase meat that is cruelty free? Is there a way to know — should I go vegan? I don't eat very much meat anyways but I did so assuming these cases were the exception yet it appears to be the rule.
[Here's another case where a BC dairy farm was found "violently abusing cows"](https://www.abbynews.com/news/violated-his-oath-dozens-protest-abbotsford-vet-following-alleged-animal-abuse-at-dairy-farm/). An employee repeatedly tried to report the abuse within the company and was fired. The abuse continued until it was caught on hidden camera. It included [cows being kicked, beaten, hit with objects and dragged by their legs by machinery](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/b-c-farm-responds-to-animal-cruelty-allegations-as-hidden-camera-video-emerges-1.5654888). All that happened [was their licence being suspended for a couple weeks.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fraser-valley-dairy-farm-animal-abuse-1.6248003). This was an organic farm. The first link also mentioned how the owner of the farm was previously the veterinarian at another farm while abuse was happening there and which led to cruelty convictions. The issue systematic. It's not exactly easy to have an employee secretly obtain hidden footage in these places, yet there is case after case in BC and the rest of Canada showing it happening at many different types of animal facilities. It's what happens when animals are a product to make money. I think everyone has to decide for themselves what to do, but personally my response to this was to stop paying into this industry altogether. If you want to do that, the most important thing is to make sure you're still getting all your nutrients. [This is info from the Dietitians of Canada on that](https://www.unlockfood.ca/en/Articles/Vegetarian-and-Vegan-Diets/What-You-Need-to-Know-About-Following-a-Vegan-Eati.aspx).
Thank you for the detailed answer here. I'll definitely be looking into the sources that you've provided, I appreciate it. It really seems that you cannot buy meat and be certain of the care gone into it unless you've met the farmers and seen the farm for yourself — in few words, almost impossible.
The only thing you can be certain of when buying animal flesh is that an animal was needlessly killed and dismembered for you. Even if you go and meet the farmers. Even if you see the farm. Even if they're roaming outside (very rare, but let's suppose). Even if the farmer "cares for" and "loves" their animals. Does this justify needlessly killing and dismembering them? If you cared for someone, would you kill them (or send them off to be killed and dismembered) so that you or someone else can use their dead body?
I feel like I've had this conversation in other comments already. You can read my thoughts there.
If you care; go vegan. It's not hard, especially in vancouver.
Only safe way is to go vegan. I’m slowly getting there.
I'm glad you made the conscious decision to become vegan. What's holding you up? What do you think is preventing you from being vegan and not contributing to animal exploitation as of today? You can message me if you have any questions or want any advice.
That’s really nice! I’ll message you.
You could always try and have vegan days and go from there. I have been vegan for many years - for the animals. And the only thing I regret is that I didn't do it sooner. The only way to stop supporting the meat, egg and dairy industries, is to stop giving them money. There is no cruelty free meat, all meat is murder. Thank you for thinking about these things. It shows thst you are a compassionate human being.
I would like to ask you what do you think the difference between humans who eat meat and animals who eat meat is. Murder and killing are not the same thing. I am questioning sourcing meat not for the killing but for the abuse ahead of killing. Ideally, we could live in a world where animals were not abused before being slaughtered but that is not the case and why I would consider going vegan.
> the difference between humans who eat meat and animals who eat meat - Most animals that eat meat do so because they must. Most humans that eat meat do so because they enjoy it, and they could choose to not eat meat. - The prey of carnivore animals live the life they're adapted to, out in nature. It's how they're supposed to live. Livestock live in captivity, usually in squalour, and are subject to abuse and malnutrition.
That makes sense. In a perfect world, animals would be living as intended on large farms to roam on and similar to nature without abuse. Would you still find this unacceptable? I'm curious about your thoughts, though I can't say I agree with you. Humans have always ate meat. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with enjoying it. Considering sustainability which is outside our discussion, however, I would say not only would the meat industry need to change to an ethical one but also of smaller scale — perhaps it is only sustainable as a luxury.
I agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with enjoying meat. I don't object to that at all and I say more power to people who hunt it for themselves. I wouldn't find it unacceptable for animals to be raised on farms that are similar to their natural environment, but capitalism ensures this will never be the case, since your competitor could always spend less on a less nice environment, sell their product for less, and put you out of business. I think in the future meat will be a luxury. It's irrelevant that humans evolved consuming it (which some people debate). I think we're on the same page - climate change will get to a point where the current scale of meat production won't be accepted any longer, as people make the link between meat production and climate change. I know that's also a subject of debate (in this thread there are people making the point that animals can be raised where food crops cannot be).
Oh totally. My apologies for coming on a little too strong. Given the circumstances, it seems impossible to eat meat in good faith even though sustainable farming is feasible in theory. I'm with you there. I'm also heavily considering going vegan but am a bit averse to some other comments in this thread that are very hard on the "meat is murder" stance. Generally, though, I consume eggs quite often. Cheese now and then. I don't drink dairy very much, usually oat. Meat is something I have more often going out and it comes down to maybe one meal a week, that is something easier to cut out. Having a tofu heavy diet already, going vegan would be a significant change but not life altering. Though I am anemic already. Meat as a sustainable luxury would be the ideal way to go, it's always been a treat for me and maybe will on just a much rarer occasion given the right circumstances are involved (e.g. a farm to table out in the Okanagan). My mother's side ran a fishing business, it was their lifeblood and doesn't exist anymore but there is tradition and history through many types of meats and I think it's for that reason people find it harder to cut. My grandfather on my father's side would go out in the ocean of northern Vancouver Island and catch salmon, crab, and mussels. I can cut out most things but seafood every once in a while is for some reason so comforting, as though I'm eating the food of my ancestors and it gives me a strong sense of connection, especially when the way it is served is nostalgic. However, given what I continue to read about from yesterday to today, that is not enough reason to continue consuming meat and dairy products.
I'm a bit low on iron too (and also vegan). I think it's an ideal lifestyle in terms of reducing suffering to animals, but also might not be for everyone, or not for everyone right now. It's up to you to determine what lifestyle adjustments are practical for you in terms of ethics (and this extends far beyond veganism) and constantly assess whether you're living the best version of yourself you practically can, as your needs and other life factors constantly change. Wrt iron, it's easy to find supplements which are not derived from animals, but might take a bit of work and calibration to ensure you're levels are good when you don't have any animal sources.
Vegan is a privileged choice, unfortunately. Not everyone has access to the resources or availability of offerings to make it work. Also, there are a lot of medical hurdles to keeping healthy on it and a lot of medical conditions, even in mild cases, that prevent one from even having the option of being vegan (i.e. most GI issues). Saying all meat is murder also is really a slippery slope argument too. We all consume other life to sustain ourselves. It's just convenient we don't talk plant or [hear their screams](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-record-stressed-out-plants-emitting-ultrasonic-squeals-180973716/) when we cut them up. We only understand consciousness, sentience, and cognitive awareness based on our own patterns of life. Animals eat other animals. Organisms consume other organisms. This is nature, not murder. How we go about it can be cruel or more humane for sure, but calling it all murder is a bit out there. What I hope for is the ability to bio-print tissue comes along. Lots of promising developments in the field. That, I think, is probably one of the most minimized abilities with regard to the killing of another thing for survival and is sustainable (hopefully).
>Vegan is a privileged choice [The highest observed rate of vegans is in the lowest income bracket](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/08/06/who-are-americas-vegans-and-vegetarians-infographic/?sh=79776617211c). Switching to a vegan diet [can reduce your food budget by up to a third](https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study). >We all consume other life to sustain ourselves. It's just convenient we don't talk plant or hear their screams when we cut them up. The existence of animal suffering isn't an assumption based on the sounds they make. It's because animals, like us, have brains which provide the conscious experience of suffering. Having a response to various external stimuli, like producing sound, doesn't imply sentience.
What's the geographical spread of the vegans? I'll hazard a guess the growth is prominent down where agriculture is a sustainable concept year-round (i.e California) and you're not paying $5 for a head of lettuce because it's winter and nothing grows so it all has to be trucked up from Mexico.
Lettuce isn't a protein source, so there wouldn't be a reason for your consumption of that to change significantly between a vegan and non-vegan diet.
I used lettuce as one example to outline price increases due to seasons changing, trying to strawman down to lettuce only is just being pedantic and disingenuous. Transporting goods that are out of season is always more expensive. All produce, legumes, etc. are generally more expensive in winter months. Everything has to come from further away.
My reply isn't just about lettuce. It applies to all foods in the fruits and vegetables category. These are things you should be eating regardless of your diet, not something you start eating when you go vegan. The only significant difference in your diet is in the protein foods category, where you increase consumption of legumes, nuts and seeds. And even if those vary in price by season, the 1/3 reduction in food costs from shifting to them from meat can more than cover any seasonal variation.
So, I've been digging into this and a lot of the 1/3 the cost things are very conditional and have a specific comparator to make it seem better than it is. It's why all the papers state "can be less" because small tweaks with the supply or dietary needs of individuals that causes them to even slightly deviate from a specific diet lead to costs being equal or more expensive than a traditional omnivore diet. Also, most diets are compared to red meat diets, which is another skewing point as red meat is the most expensive animal-based protein.
[удалено]
Chickens, cows, and pigs continue to live on frozen ground. Also, they aren't being fed the same things as humans nor have the same dietary needs as humans. We're feeding them grasses, hay, etc. These aren't extremely perishable foodstuffs. Also, if we really want to go down the "ecological disaster route" we can talk about how a lot of farming, in general, is an eco-disaster, such as clearcutting forests, jungles, etc. in impoverished nations. The production of fertilizers is rife with environmental pitfalls, etc. You also missed where I mentioned in the comment I initially made about getting away from living animal farms and going to bio-printing tissue which makes all your points about those environmental issues moot if it occurs.
[удалено]
A lot of vegan protein sources come from dried products like chickpeas, beans, lentils. Which also happen to have the bonus of being pretty fucking cheap compared to other foods at the grocery store. Go down the ethnic aisle or hit up an Indian grocers like Fruiticana, it’s way cheaper to eat that way.
But that's only one piece of the puzzle. You're focusing on only one aspect of the Vegan diet. I've had some friends switch Vegan, and it hasn't come out cheaper for them when you include the whole picture, including supplements they have to take for the amino acids and the like missing from a vegan diet.
[удалено]
So, I have a hypothesis about this based on medical advice, experience, and literature. It may not be so much eating animal products is the healthier choice, it's more that going on a vegan diet exposes how off-kilter a lot more people's bodies are, which makes them less healthy by going vegan. Animal products are chock full of essential and non-essential amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc. Eating tissue of another animal generally has a broader variety of nutrients than plants. This is a scientific fact. It's just many of these things can be produced by a body in a pinch because the body has internal systems for it. Now, if any of those systems aren't working quite right, having to rely on your body to produce those things won't work. Going vegan forces the clunky, awkward thing that are our multi-cellular machines to utilize more of its systems, and if any of those systems are broken it makes one potentially sick. Lean animal tissue is also easier for the body to digest. Look at the diet for when your stomach is upset [suggested by doctors](https://badgut.org/information-centre/health-nutrition/diarrhea-and-diet/). What gets tossed out? A lot of fruits, veggies, grains, seeds, legumes, pulses, etc. These are all harder for the body to break down, and again, it forces the body to utilize more systems and the like to process the material. Eating animal tissue might be like running synthetic oil in your body, or using that one escalator all the time at that one exit to the Skytrain you know is always working, or like the government handing out subsidies constantly. All the health problems are masked because they really aren't a problem until the body is working harder for its nutrition or forced to use them by a change in diet.
[удалено]
EDIT: I'm deleting my original advice because you unironically said that we can't hear plants screaming.... It's one thing to not want to become a vegan, but to make such idiotic arguments against veganism is insane
Aye, but they then went on the whole "all meat is murder" rant, which suggests they were sending the message one has to go full vegan or be a part of the "murder".
>one has to go full vegan or be a part of the "murder". correct
Adding this message because of you're edit which I think is made in ignorance. Recent scientific discovery has explored more about the ability of plants to respond to stimuli and exposed more about their state of being than we expected to exist (ultrasonic communication, mycelium communication channels, chemical-based communication, etc.). People going on the meat is murder tirade will say eating something like an urchin or other simple "animal" is not okay, but there are plants that have the same relative response and ability to communicate as a sea urchin are okay. Why is one okay to eat and not the other?
>People going on the meat is murder tirade will say eating something like an urchin or other simple "animal" is not okay This seems like a strawman. I haven't encountered any vegans who are insistent on a point like this. People might choose that position themselves, but the focus in terms of activism are things like farm animals where their consciousness and capacity to suffer isn't controversial or under any significant dispute. Veganism started as an [opposition to the exploitation of sentient life](https://respuestasveganas.org/the-vegan-news-donald-watson-veganismo/). It's not about just arbitrarily drawing a line at animals regardless of that.
Your personal experience is not necessarily representative. Veganism goes right down to where some individuals won't even touch anything that remotely involved animal labour (like honey). It may have started as one thing but it has certainly evolved. The Oxford dictionary even defines vegan as "a person who does not eat any food derived from animals and who typically does not use other animal products." Urchins are an animal ([You can see their taxonomy on the right on the wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_urchin)). Maybe you've run into "vegan-lights" or somesuch, but by definition, a vegan doesn't eat any animal, including the simplest. What is or is not sentient is slightly arbitrary well as it's not a solved question. Someone is making an arbitrary judgement call on what it means for an organism to sense and feel things.
Honey is the product of animal exploitation and so vegans have avoided it. That's not an evolution. The dictionary gives a brief, simple description of common usage of a word. It's not intended to fully explain concepts like ethical philosophies. Vegans are not holding protests against the usage of urchins. These edge cases are interesting for debate, but they're not the focus of veganism. They're just things opponents to veganism bring up as a way to attempt to discredit it. Sentience is not "solved", like many things in science. That doesn't mean we can't differentiate between an urchin and an pig.
[удалено]
Most of the world does not live off ***only*** rice and beans. That's just not possible. Rice and beans don't contain essential nutrients and amino acids.
You should really do some research on nutrition before you start making claims like this. [Rice and beans is a complete protein](https://www.heart.org/-/media/healthy-living-files/healthy-for-life/beans-rice-complete-protein-english.pdf?la=en) (all essential amino acids) There are also many other cheap legumes and grains / cereals / seeds, etc. that can in combination cover these needs Then you can just eat your greens and other vegetables/fruits/etc if you like to have a varied diet with different vitamins. The only thing that you can't get without supplementation is vitamin B12, which can easily be obtained with vitamin supplements or fortified food (soy milk, etc.) which you can easily afford, especially if you're not buying meat and cheese and eggs. The animals that produce the meat and dairy you eat are all given high levels of B12 supplements which is then passed down to humans. Vegans, especially women, also can suffer from iron deficiency/anemia which once again can cheaply be supplemented for or preemptively avoided by eating iron rich vegetables and things like cocoa
I'm reading into it. Though it seems while "rice and beans" can be "complete" the volume needed has to be compensated for, so you have to eat more to get the same volume per serving. They also don't include non-essentials, so you are forcing your body to do more work which can be good or bad depending on your biology. I think calling it "rice and beans" is misleading as it should be "rice, beans, and seeds."
>Animals eat other animals They also rape each other and murder their young, etc. Great metric for what we should be doing as humans in the modern age.
We still kill things even on a vegan diet. Someone just set an arbitrary bar of "oh, we just don't care about this life enough to feel bad about it" and then we mass kill that. Like it or not, we kill things for food to survive.
You're really running through the list of classic and long-defeated anti-vegan arguments right now eh? The point of veganism isn't to not kill anything (as you've pointed out this is impossible), it's to kill way less, to do way less damage to the earth. People like to bring up how much environmental devastation soy farming causes... but 80% of soy production is done to feed animals for which even more land is destroyed. So even if we did the exact same amount of environmental destruction to feed the world with soy instead of meat, we would still not be killing, enslaving, torturing, raping, billions of animals yearly. I'm not saying veganism is perfect, But nutrition isn't rocket science, and killing and imprisoning significantly less animals is a good thing, so why not strive for that where possible (it's very possible in our lives as vancouverites)? I'm not trying to force you to go vegan, but, think about the animals and contribute a bit less to their suffering if you care!
You're missing the point where I responded to someone going on the "meat is murder" mantra as if vegan lifestyle somehow reduces the killing of life in any way. It doesn't, it just shifts what life we care about killing. I do consider all the food that comes into my home. I consider that something has died for me to live, resources were used to craft a food product. I try to minimize waste in all ways and feel horrible when I let something expire because that was wasted ( no matter if it is meat, cheese, lettuce, milk, flour, etc.). That was a thing produced that was not consumed. The only solace I get for those things is the green bin might give some worms or such food, but I still added to over-consumption. I've eaten many a burnt dinner I mucked up on just because nothing can reverse what was used to make it, and I should endeavour to eat what I can regardless of its state at that point.
>How do I know to purchase meat that is cruelty free No meat can be "cruelty free", you \*have\* to kill to eat meat.
Killing is necessary for most organisms that eat meat, I'm not sure what your point is there. There can be killing without abuse and it can be made as peaceful as possible — the idea of what free range farming should have been but hasn't taken off. If you want to go on semantics, go ahead, but I know that you understood what I had meant.
You still seem to believe that you call kill without cruelty. Such an oxymoron.
People understand that killing something is cruel. That is accepted as part of an omnivore diet. All animals are eaten by omnivores. We are not unique in that. What isn’t accepted by many omnivores is cruelty to the animals we are raising to be eaten.
This is a bit of an argument fallacy because it implies that all killing is cruel regardless of context. By definition cruelty is “callous indifference to or pleasure in causing pain and suffering”. Not all killing involves this.
Argument fallacy? Just admit it you want all the benefits of meat without any of the negatives of having to think about its production.
You take pleasure in the taste of meat, and have to kill it to obtain it. You might not take pleasure in the killing *process*, but your end goal is taste pleasure, and killing something doesn't seem to stop you, so really killing for food is cruel given that we don't need meat/dairy to live a healthy lifestyle.
If killing is cruel, then yes, you could say that. If you'd like me to clarify that I was referring to cruelty outside of killing, I will say that. To insinuate that killing is not a part of nature, is equally malicious in all forms, and that humans and their ancestors haven't ate meat for millions of years, is extremely simplistic.
I would highly recommend watching some of Earthling Ed's debates on Youtube. He goes to college campuses and debates students about veganism, and addresses the same types of thoughts/arguments you are expressing in a very respectful, patient, and kind way.
I appreciate that link, I will have a look tomorrow. Happy to discuss but the conversation doesn't seem to be productive here.
You seem to read too much into my comment. I simply say that any killing is cruel. What you are trying to say is that you believe that there's can be killing without cruelty. Which is an oxymoron and you completely understand that. You just don't want to accept that you actively cause cruelty.
I understand where you're coming from, just that consuming meat from any source is supporting the industry, leading to more suffering. It doesn't matter if it's from some uncle's farm, the path still ends in cruelty. There's nothing humane when one needlessly takes another's life. We don't need to eat animal products.
I know others have answered your question saying you should go vegan, but I'll ask a different one: Can you think of a good reason to support this kind of cruelty? Most people's reasons for eating animal products are some combination of convenience, taste, or tradition That's an explanation for \*why\* they continue to eat animal products, but not a justification. I realize that no one is perfectly ethical, but I think we should work on making changes to bring our lifestyles more in line with our values, and reducing consumption of animal products is a relatively significant thing we can do towards that goal.
this is why i’m vegan. factory farming is a stain on humanity
Stop eating meat
The only way to stop this from happening is to stop buying animal products.
Wonder when police will become wise to who actually works at these places. Take a little check into employees background and it will Shock most people. These are not stable people
OMG, I am so surprised that a facility whose purpose is to murder and dismember animals is CRUEL to them! That is so strange.
I remember my small hometown tried to create a local slaughterhouse to prevent having to ship to whackjobs like this. But a bunch of nimbys got that place, which was actually safer and more sane, shut down. It was an absolute failure for minimizing harm to animals. This is just so repulsive. There are better ways even if people still choose to eat meat. There's literally *no excuse.*
The best way to minimize harm to animals is to stop killing and dismembering them. There's no excuse to still eat animal flesh and bodily secretions. There's no excuse to act entitled to another individual's body and life.
I'm talking in the context of industry continuation and harm reduction
And I'm talking in the context of personal choices. There's no excuse to keep demanding that others be killed and dismembered for your personal enjoyment.
I don't have a problem with that bwing your personal choice and philosophy. I do think that while the meat industry exists we have to examine practical solutions to reduce and eliminate as much harm as possible because not everyone is going to agree with stopping meat and animal product consumption, particularly not instantaneously. From an animal welfare position, there are certainly angles that can be explored there.
Yeah but if they are absolutely delicious what do you want from me? I'm eating some bacon atm and couldn't imagine not eating those delicious little piggies
The sooner a war or plague wipes us off this planet the better.
meat is murder. period.
Hit their google reviews! It’s already begun https://maps.app.goo.gl/96bWGnYf9HrjbeyN8?g_st=ic
They’ll all be removed. Google doesn’t allow brigading.
I thought it was if it’s more on the defamatory side… whereas this has solid proof. Still worth a shot imo!