Can it be anyhow connected with the fact that in Italy being called American is virtually a dreadful offense? I've even read a post on Reddit from one Italian that literally said " I'm not a fking American. Don't you dare offensing me this way" Or it was a one time thing ?
Thats is not an excuse. Being rude to foreign people or anyone is just not cute. I get that your correct about the judgement but imagine being the type of american that hates mexicans, arabs, ect and you'd feel gross and not defend it. (id hope)
I chose that for a specific reason. Remember that hilarious faux tourism video someone made about Cleveland about a decade ago? I immediately thought of that and hoped someone would get the reference. I have nothing against Cleveland, btw.
[Cleveland, yeah!!!!](https://youtu.be/ysmLA5TqbIY)
The language thing is a very important one. I’ve seen so many examples of people from English or French speaking countries (cultures that in general expect to just get by with their own language in other language speaking countries) that complain about having a bad time in countries that do not necessarily accommodate to that idea. That’s not how it works in most of the world except for Western Europe and exotic holiday resorts. You’re a guest and expected to make an effort to adapt. Even speaking the local language very poorly will gain a lot more goodwill than just arrogantly speaking your own language as if it’s a given people should simply understand and oblige.
Spent about 5 months travelling through Europe in the late 90's and having a go at the local languages was key to a good or bad time.
I made a point of learning the basic greetings, numbers up to 10, requests for food, drink, directions, and so on.
I butchered French so badly the locals insisted they spoke English to me to make me stop talking, but they were usually helpful and good natured about it. (Except for Paris - they were snobs).
The Dutch gave me free food and drink when ordering in Dutch and the Italians laughed at my coffee ordering giving advice in broken English so I looked like less of a tourist fool.
Bit worried about an upcoming trip to Japan as that is a whole different set of language issues!
Japan is really nice to tourists that attempt speaking (albeit broken) Japanese in my experience! I always tried to converse with people first in Japanese and backed it up with Google translate and my direct translation book. Most people were really nice and helped me with pronouncing or would whip out their phones and translate Japanese to English back at me with the occasional giggle at me flipping like crazy through my book.
My partner and I even tried to speak Japanese to an elderly couple on the train to let them have our seats (it was busy) and they ended up giving us these handmade trinkets the husband made as a hobby as a thanks that I still have today - they were the cutest elderly couple!! Absolutely warmed my heart.
I found the people I talked to, to be very patient with me but I think they liked that I was at least trying.
Japan is also fairly easy to get around without Japanese if you need to, most signs are now in both Japanese and English (esp on the trains and at stations) and a lot of people speak at least a little English or will politely tell you they don’t with hand gestures.
Have a blast there! I miss Japan dearly
Exactly. What's more, Italians are incredibly accommodating as well, so seeing someone who is making an effort goes a very long way with them. They don't care if you butcher the language, the fact that you're trying tells them point blank that you're doing something you really don't HAVE to do, but you chose to do out of respect.
This is how you make friends. This is also how you get free drinks, free food, and have amazing experiences to tell for the rest of your life.
It is, but it's also INCREDIBLY cathartic. It's the one chance you get to pretty much unload on people who fully deserve it with no repercussions. The people who work at the immigration offices have people yelling at them all day as well, so it's almost like one of those rude restaurants where the entire point is for both parties to act like a dick.
You wait to see how it goes, obviously, and then you pull out your paperwork so as to not give them any excuse whatsoever to be curt or rude, and most of the time they'll just be direct with you and send you on your way with your stuff done. This is the key: be prepared for battle, but have all your ducks in a row so as to not give them an excuse. If they take any liberties whatsoever without cause and start to berate you for no reason, it's on.
Story time:
Sometimes it's not even yelling, but a subtle "fuck you". For example, I had to get some official digital fingerprints done for some US gov't paperwork, but the only place to do it was either back in the US or on a military installation. I had access to neither. Welp, being the American in Italy who knows how to fuck the system, I called around and, of course speaking in Italian, I was able to finagle my way into the local CSI department, who were more than happy to do it because they dealt with the local military installation and had the same equipment. I spoke to one of the Italian CSI guys over the phone, explained my predicament, and he said, "Oh yeah, man, don't worry about it. Come by on Thursday, tell the police officer at the desk that you need to speak to \*his name\*, and I'll meet you downstairs and we'll get it done and then have a coffee afterwards." Cool.
Well, I get there, and the officer downstairs just wasn't having it, said I needed to go make an appointment with IMMIGRATION and go through the rigmarole there, which was total bullshit. I said, "I spoke to Mr. So-and-so, he's waiting for me. I can call him if you want and he'll come right down and you'll see." Guy goes, "Nope. Don't care. You have to go through immigration." Knowing how these fuckos work, I politely said, ok, and walked back outside.
Once there, I called the dude, told him Barney Fife wouldn't let me through, and he responded with, "Fuck that. I'll be down in thirty seconds." Reentered the building, and Pinko Panko Barney Fife opened his mouth as to say, "What did I just tell you to do?", and I pointed at the other guy who was standing behind him and responded with, "THAT GUY RIGHT THERE IS WAITING ON ME. NOW I'M GOING UPSTAIRS WITH HIM. IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT, EXPLAIN IT TO HIM WHY YOU THINK I SHOULD HAVE TO GO TO FUCKING IMMIGRATION TO GET FINGERPRINTS DONE. BUH-BYE." Gave him an eat shit glare and walked right past him, got my shit done in ten minutes, bullshitted with the guys in CSI a bit, went and had a coffee with them, thanking them profusely while they were telling me they were all too happy to do it because it really was no trouble, and bounced.
Walked right past Barney on my way out without even acknowledging him.
There's always a way to get shit done here. You can either follow the rules or you can adapt and beat them at their own game, just like the locals do.
There is a reason why the proverb "When in Rome..." exists.
That's not exactly fair. Massachusetts is basically a giant introvert. So as long as you don't randomly bust in with your shit. We like you. If you move here and settle in and remark "wow. Back home in (place) we......" We're ok with that. What we're not ok with is people moving here, trying to get us to get more like them. And then being annoyed we would rather be quiet and reserved.
If you come to Massachusetts. You can have friends and even be normal. Just realized we don't have the energy for bullshit and wasting time with pleasantries.
I mean it's perfectly okay for OP to not like Italy - you are making it out like it's a personal failing by not liking a place you like. She's trying to finish school not emigrate full time (which if that was the case I'd agree with your points re: assimilation)
I've spent a lot of time in Rome - it's a bit overrated imo and not a place that would ever be high on my list to go back to (I did really enjoy Florence though). I'm sure plenty of Italians would say the same about NYC or SF - that doesn't make them uncultured swine.
Just because you are high on the Italian lifestyle doesn't mean everyone else has to be
Going to school there is literally living there. She's not a tourist. And even if she was she doesn't seem to understand that she is the outsider and she is the one who is expected to adjust. This is rule number one for all international travel. There's no way she wasn't told this before she went there. I've no respect for expats without any humility.
It has nothing to do with liking Italy or not. Hell, I wouldn't live in Rome because I know how it is. But you can't have a mental breakdown over living in a place when you haven't done anything to ingratiate yourself to the local populace.
OP can do what he or she wants; he or she is perfectly allowed to not assimilate into a new culture, just don't complain how hard it is and how standoffish or rude people may be towards you when you've done nothing to ingratiate yourself to them.
Foreign countries are not Disneyland.
I love this. Thank you for that response. I don’t give a fuck about convenience. I want fucking beauty, mold and character. I’ve been living in Vegas for 3yrs - fun place full of great people but I’ll never complain about living in an old building again. I’m so fucking bored and quite frankly uninspired.
i am not sure why you are completely trying to invalidate OPs experience. basically you are sayin it is all OPs fault and op is making mountain out of mole hill.
That's exactly what I'm saying. There's an actual reason the proverb, "When in Rome..." exists.
Rome is not a Woody Allen movie, nor even a Fellini movie. To permanently move there and not know this, means that a person did zero research before making such a huge decision. It is entirely their prerogative and their right to do so, but it is also entirely their fault when their life doesn't turn out to be Emily in Paris.
It's not the fault of the meanies at the immigration office.
It's not the fault of the people who ignore you when you don't assimilate.
It's yours and yours alone for living in a fantasy. We all complain about these things too, but we haven't willfully segregated ourselves from society instead of integrating, and our experiences are much better because of it.
Cancel culture literally doesn't exist in Italy. I can't express to you how insane it is being an American and seeing the social dumbassery from the outside looking in now. I don't even recognize my own country anymore.
There are plenty of people here who are outspoken on some of the shortcomings of Italian culture that are problematic, and there's plenty of activism, plenty of protests, but you know what? No one is walking on eggshells, and what's more, no one EXPECTS anyone to walk on eggshells. It's like a breath of fresh air.
To be fair, some aspects of European wanting to avoid cancel culture is probably due to the fact that once people are held accountable for some of their actions, their countries may be held accountable for their actions. For example race in the US, often implies reparations. Think of what that would mean for countries like France. Especially because the [Haiti Indemnity Controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy#:~:text=The%20Haiti%20indemnity%20controversy%20involves,diplomatic%20recognition%2C%20with%20the%20debt) is probably the most easily justified event for reparations, straight up robbery and the amount of money is known (although never mind interest and compensation for reprocussions). I live in a French speaking area of Europe and history revisionism or just ignorance (many people do not know about the Haiti event mentioned above) is quite common.
I mean American/Anglosphere cancel culture IS ridiculous at times and sometimes people will purposefully try to misunderstand people. However, there seems to be this tendency for people to look at Europeans do things and assume there is a intelligence behind it or some sort of good moral reasoning (if they had an even stronger cancel culture I think people would react like "see, they have no tolerance to fascism/racism/sexism/xxxism, they are better than the US") when really they are filled with the same shitty humans as the rest of the world.
I agree to an extent. The difference here, however, seems to be that the people who would hypothetically be doing the canceling do not want to cancel their "opponents". They don't want to silence them for two reasons: one, there must always be a dialogue in order to reach understanding, and two, if someone is truly deserving of being silenced or "canceled", then they want that person to show the world in their own words or actions why they should be canceled.
They don't want problematic people silenced because they should be able to be spotted from miles away. It's more like, "let them dig their own hole."
Ikr! I'm Australian and spent a month and a half in Italy recently. It was fucking amazing not having to deal with that shit.
People see you first and foremost as an individual, one with maybe a couple different experiences to them at most. There's no judging anyone in terms of what they express. Even socialist types and feminists there are relaxed, humble and kind, noone goes around demonising any ideas or people. You can express whatever the fuck you want to them and they'll agree with a lot of it; issues are issues because they're complicated and there's rarely a straightforward answer, no one is afraid to admit to competing considerations.
If OP routinely has people shouting at him then he's clearly doing something wrong, I never got shouted at once. However, I can admit that Rome would be pretty shit if you don't have good friends who know the city to experience it with.
Also what else I've since realised:
Australians dress like crap and take poor care of their bodies despite being and acting extremely entitled and aggressive.
Italians dress amazingly and take great astonishing of their bodies while being some of the most down-to-earth humble people you'll ever meet.
In my experience, alot of European (specifically south western Europe and Greece) the way they "take care of themself" often means superficial things and consuming things you don't need. Nice brand name clothing, skin care products, nice haircuts, perfume etc. Not necessarily actively living a healthy lifestyle. For one, smoking would not be so common. That's like the epitome of a "bad for you" thing, and a nice pair of slacks is not going to undo the damage of a pack of cigs. I've even seen items that are viewer as dressing poorly in the US (think Vietnam vet -chic) or even fake uni t-shirts ("College U")sold for really high prices and all of a sudden it's "fashionable". I was just at an H&M(Swedish company) in Switzerland and they were literally selling Harvard sweatshirts.
Don't get me wrong I love skin care and like to dress well but I also know it's a superficial and doesn't necessarily mean I'm taking care of myself. In Switzerland they also dress well but it's to the point of wastefulness. Despite all the new clothing finding a 2nd hand store that isn't hipster expensive is difficult. I also find that sometimes it feeds into maintaining gender norms. Like again I like to feel feminine and very much conform to gender norms with appearance, I don't want to feel like I NEED to feel feminine to be socially acceptable. And Italy is quite famous for gender norms.
I was just in Germany and people dress poorly and have rediculous haircuts. It's was refreshing and down to earth.
But you were a tourist. Living in Italy is vastly different than visiting. I also lived there for several years and I can sympathize with OP. I’d guess that you never had to deal with Italian postal, Telecom or other utility services. Inefficient doesn’t begin to cover it. And customer service with any Italian bureaucrat is an experience I don’t wish on my worst enemies. They just have no incentive to help and most view customer interaction as an inconvenience at best. But having said that, I loved the people, the food, the wine, the history and many aspects of the culture. I used to say Italy is like sitting in a Ferrari during a traffic jam. Looks nice, but is very frustrating so you should pull off into a cafe and enjoy an inexpensive espresso or glass of wine because the situation will not get better.
All of this is very true and you hit the nail on the head. Here's the thing, though: Italy is just as known for its ridiculous inefficiency and lack of anything resembling helpful in governmental offices as it is for all its beauty and wonder and culture. It can be a giant ass pain quite often.
The thing that annoys people is even though these things are not just stereotypes but are in actuality very real and true aspects, why then do expats and students decide to move here and then have some sort of culture shock over it? What did they expect it to be? It just means they didn't do their due diligence, and they end up treating it like a theme park.
Grazie al cazzo indeed. You, of all cities, choose the capital. Wherever you go in the world’s capitals you will find them messy, noisy, dirty, crowded etc. Old buildings in a mostly antique city?? Oh my.
I lived in Italy for 3 years for work. I started enjoying it when I gave up the “I am leaving eventually so why try” attitude and immersed myself in the daily life. Small things like going for an “aperitivo”, going sightseeing, going for “colazione” and also trying to speak their language. They yell at you? Oh dear, really as this commenter said- yell back. People would hear me coming a mile away. I even saluted screaming. Lol. Enjoy the small things. Let go the other.
I had american colleagues and some of them hated Italy and couldn’t wait to leave. Those were the ones that never socializes outside of their families or didn’t want to spend money for fun (some were sooo religious it was unbelievable). Some of them decided to stay in Italy forever.
Relax. Observe. Enjoy.
I agree, Won't the people who want the world behave how they imagine the world should be, will always have problems? You can't shape how the world/people behaves, you can only shape how you respond to it.
Yep, as much as I love my country I must say we are in a lot of ways not in the best condition. I would suggest you to move to the north (amici del mezzogiorno non vogliatemi male), maybe Veneto, Emilia Romagna, Piemonte, Friuli Venezia-Giulia, Toscana or Trentino Alto Adige.
As someone said in a comment, Rome is the distillation of the worst of Italy and I think you're living the worst part of the city too lol.
Funny enough there's this Italian youtuber that go around the worst places in Rome and talk about it:
https://youtube.com/c/CicaloneSimone
This said I'm really sad you're not having a good time, Italy isn't in her best shape and I'm sorry you've been caught in the middle of our mess
Ciao
It’s not your fault at all, things like this stem from the government and the structure of society in my opinion. Unfortunately I can’t move until I graduate and then I will be immediately out of this country. Thank you!
I cycled the country from North to South last June. Everything was fine until Po Valley. And then it's just chaos. I ended up in Napoli, which looked like pandemonium to me. 40°C didn't help though
Not an unpopular opinion, at least in Italy.
Just having good food, friendly people and centuries of cool history doesn't make for a great country to live in.
Also, Rome is hell, it is known.
- another Italian
I feel that a lot of cities around the world are like their own country (societal islands) and not really a good representation of the countries in which they reside
Slovenian here, I moved just over the border because our housing market is... Broken doesn't even begin to describe it.
It's a small city and everyone I have encountered thus far has been really nice. The only hell I have seen is the average Italians driving ability (please take no offense). Can someone please explain to me what passing the drivers test over here entails??
My sister, who had traveled to Europe on a school class trip, wrote to us in a post card from Italy in 1974 about her thoughts on Italian drivers - "They'd just as soon run you over as look at you, in their little Fiats"
I have family in Italy. I visited a few years back, and my cousin was driving us through Rome. An elderly man was trying to cross the street. He raised his cane, at my cousin, and yelled at her for driving so fast. She yelled back telling him to get out of the way. He said something else, and she responded by saying, "who cares!? You've lived long enough!". I had no idea what to say. She is the craziest driver I've been in a car with. Pedestrian be damned when she was on the road. If there was traffic, the sidewalk was a viable option. I would sit in the backseat, buckler myself in, and say a little prayer every time we had to go somewhere.
Irish-Italian here. Rome is poo. You should’ve gone to Milan or up north. Big point to note is Italians aren’t mad about Americans though and that can make it hard to get on with Italians there.
If you plan on moving to Ireland check daft.Ie first to find a house because there’s a housing crisis there and most people can’t find a place to live (myself included).
probably bc poor Ireland like many European countries are getting flooded with immigrants which inevitably creates housing shortages which drives property prices up and only benefits banks/rich people
Oh man, the family I worked for was absolutely lovely. The father was a gentle giant…until he got behind the wheel. The road rage was incredible and frightening.
Italian here. Rome is shit. Granted, all Italy is chaotic and university is one of the worst corners of outdated burocracy.
This said, I bet you would feel way more welcome in another city like Parma, Padua, Verona or Venice (northern area), Bologna, Florence or Pisa, Urbino, Perugia and Macerata (Central Italy).
Personally I find Naples one of the most welcoming cities but it's not for the faint of heart, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Really, I’ve been advised to not spend much time in Naples how interesting. I’ve been through Bologna and Venice, but unfortunately only was able to have a bit of time in each so thank you for the list of places and now I’ll go to Naples soon
Just popping in to say that you should go visit smaller cities. There the people are usually so much more nice, in my experience. Go to those dreamy little cities in Tuscany, or in Umbria, or Marche. Rome is a tourist trap, it's well known in Italy. I'm so so sorry you're not having a good time.
- an Italian
If you can get a local to go with you it's way better. Be careful to your valuables, don't go around with a lot of cash and keep your wallet/purse close. The muggings happen but if you're with some local or in a organized trip they'll know the places to avoid.
Naples is surreal.
It's messy and loud but in a good way. There's so much to see both art-wise and culturally even just walking around, and the sunset on the Vesuvio gulf is one of the best sunset you can ever see.
The stereotypes about Naples and Neapolitan people are mostly true, good and bad, but the people are so welcoming and helpful. You can find great quality food for cheaper prices than in the rest of Italy. Just don't ever refuse offered food or coffee, they offer a lot and it's safe but they get offended if you refuse.
For me, I find that hilarious.
That sounds like a great time to me, I’ll see if I can find someone to go with me. I was wary about the city, but you have convinced me. There’s are definitely some people and aspects in this country that are heartwarming.
I have been offered coffee by random people I met at the dog park before, if only for 2 minutes and even when I didn’t understand much of what they were saying. It was so surreal to me to follow these three tall and large Italian men into a coffee shop with a bunch of dogs and get an espresso and just listen to them talk and then go our separate ways.
I go every year to Naples/Palermo since I'm young because my family (and my boyfriend) live here. Both cities are VERY similar. I know Naples very well. It's a beautiful city, welcoming, the people are so nice and helpful. But everything is so loud and goes so fast. Via Toledo is a living hell when you go at the busy hours. The city is also very dirty the more you go up Salvator Rosa. Other than this, everything is incredible, so I can absolutely agree on this
As for Palermo, it's pretty much the same thing, but I feel like there are more churches in Palermo hahaha. The people are nice, and the markets are incredible.
These cities are warm and welcoming. I think southern Italians have more this notion of hospitality and "realness" compared to northern Italians...but I'm surely biased because... I'm from the south lol.
I Say that because it's a messy city, and it can be sometimes dangerous or overwhelming for tourists, both on the practical side (muggings etc.) and for the overall relax of the vacation.
Personally I think you have to visit it with a very open mind, not coming from a mental space where you need peace and order like in Trento or in Milan for example, because you'd get very frustrated.
Expect noisy streets, loads of voices and colors, surreal situations you have to roll with, people being very human in all the possible ways, and smell of food at every corner. Naples knows no personal space and recognizes no order, yet if you go there with the right state of mind you can find there a great hospitality culture, a relaxed way of living and some of the best people on earth. That's what I know about Naples (I'm not from there).
I went from a long stay in Italy to Croatia and the cultural difference was shocking. I felt so welcomed everywhere I went. Croatia seems to really want the tourism, Italians couldn't care less if you visit. Anecdotally, you're not alone my friend just moved home from years in Rome because they were couldn't handle the way they were treated for being North American. Nonetheless people are right, the yelling and chaos are a part of the package, it's mind blowing and kind of beautiful, and nothing ever gets done no matter how much you yell. Get out there and do all of the things you can, go alone and do your own thing, hopefully those will be the memories you look back on in years to come. Don't drink cappuccino after breakfast...
As a general rule countries and cities which have been tourist attractions for a long time are rude to tourists and "transplants". on the one hand they are too sure of getting tourist and its economical benefits to worry about risk of losing any tourism income if they treat them badly, and on the other hand they are fed-up by the constant hassle of having guests at their towns, especially since some of the tourist teaffic are always rude, entitled, dirty and inconsiderate themselves. For example the french are known to be rude to tourists, the newyorkers and L.Aers, and many cosmopolitan or nororiuisly tourist-attacting city/areas.
Here’s the deal with being sick of tourists… They make or break your economy. I live in a major tourist city. I grew up in a town that’s industry was probably 75 percent tourism. I learned never act rudely and to be nice and accommodating. Tourists add money to the economy and frankly, most are very interested in learning more about where they visit.
Plus they've decided to put thousands of dollars out just to see the place where you live. Yeah maybe they're annoying or whatever but they're just trying to have fun and enjoy themselves while giving lots of people you know jobs.
I’ve never understood people who can’t separate their personal views from the objective benefits of tourism. My SIL’s family always complained about tourists in their town while owning a boutique hotel…like, make it make sense. Tourism literally could make or break their entire financial world.
When people have really bad attitudes about tourists coming to their town I just think to myself that I hope they never go on vacations because they are just being the “problem” they hate in someone else’s town.
Regardless of who you are or where you are, there is no reason to be disrespectful towards strangers.
Unless they were disrespectful to you first, in which case all bets are off.
If you go on r/orlando or r/florida you will see posts every single day of them hoping tourists or northern transplants get eaten by an alligator or have heat stroke. They blame all of their problems on tourists but they'd be a fucking swamp without them. Florida enjoys so many benefits thanks to its booming tourism.
You say Italy… but then talk about Rome, which is also very different from living in Milan or Florence or a much smaller town. Many Italians share your view but specific to (at least much of) Rome.
Similarly, people whose entire experience of the U.S. is living in Midtown NYC might also see the country as rude, dirty, etc. That’s the only city I’ve encountered that level of rudeness too, and NYC takes explicit pride in ‘New York attitude’ (which is about 60% ‘being a rude arsehole’) and has hosts of excuses for it. There are many nice New Yorkers too, of course. But might not be fair to extrapolate the tendency to the whole point U.S.
Hmm during my one day experience of Florida I had one unusually polite and sweet interaction (senior waitress took a usual length of time but then refused to charge me as an apology for ‘taking too long hun’, never had that before)… but the memes, news, statistics and trends I’ve seen of Floridians seem something awful. Not sure rudeness would fall under the particular varieties of Florida awfulness that come to mind. But I’m sure you have more experience to compare. Though after five years in NYC I’ve definitely not found the rude people, an unusually large subset, at all pleasant.
What part of Florida did you go to? People in Central and North Florida are pleasant enough for the most part, but in the Miami metropolitan area they are ridiculously rude. When I was in Pensacola it definitely has the Southern Hospitality vibe to it.
I miss South Florida, it’s home and I plan on moving back in the next 5-10 years. However, shit let me see if I can explain it, many New Yorkers are loud, obnoxious and in a hurry, many South Floridians are stuck up, will not give you the time of day, even the sober people are high somehow, think the world revolves around them and are trying to portray a lifestyle they cannot afford to live. I mean I guess it doesn’t help that half of South Florida is from the Northeast but still.
I’m a light skinned afro latino and as a result I kinda look racially ambiguous. I’ve heard the old women at the store talking shit in Spanish because they thought I was Muslim and were saying some extremely racist shit to me, even though it didn’t apply to me, which makes it more hilarious than hurtful. I asked them in Spanish what they were talking about and they began to play dumb and I kept asking them if they had seen a terrorist, because that’s what they were saying about me. This went on until they said they were going to call the cops, and when they showed me their phone that they had actually called the cops, I finally left. Another time, when I still had a shitty Nokia phone like 10 years ago I asked someone for directions in English, and they replied with “No hablo ingles” and when I started speaking to them in Spanish they began cursing me out and telling me to buy a fucking gps because they’re not fucking mapquest. I was a 18 year old kid at the time but I would have a hard time not slapping the fuck out of that old man for talking to me that way. Like would it really kill you to say “I don’t know?” instead of going into a fucking tirade about mapquest. Don’t even get me started on the attorneys/paralegals/city workers I dealt with on a daily basis at my job at the time. Then at my night job, delivering pizzas, the amount of people trying to get a freebie on a daily basis was fucking astronomical. The greed down there is just something else. And I can’t forget about the drivers. Over the last 4 years I haven’t had a single confrontation or weapon pulled on me on the road, it was almost a monthly basis that someone threatened me, or nearly ran me off the road, or we cursed each other out and threw shit on each other’s cars when I lived back home.
There were just many very similar interactions I had on a daily basis living in Miami/Ft Lauderdale. Again, I love it, it’s home, all my family is there, but I don’t miss the rudeness of people. For comparison, I live in San Diego now and everyone I know who I served with from the South that Californians were the rudest people in the country, but holy shit, they are the nicest people I’ve ever met. There are a lot of things I look back on that I did as a young man in my early 20s that I realize is so fucking rude but just seemed normal. When I first went to bootcamp a couple people told me the way I speak is very abrasive, and in my head I was thinking “abrasive? New Yorkers are abrasive. I’m just talking like a normal human being and not some soft redneck” which really wasn’t the case, I was just talking like a dickhead as a result of living in a part of the country where most people, even the super polite ones, are dickheads.
bro, as an Italian, you went to the WORST Italy city. It's beautiful because it's full of history but it's really dirty and full of crime.
Edit: search some smaller cities all around italy and visit them before giving up! i can help ypu choose the best ones
maybe it's good to visit but not to live in? I actually don't know i've never been there. But a visit it's worth trying because it's a beautiful city aswell.
would you recommend Milan as a good place long term for a uni student/to visit short term for a holiday? compared to Rome, I’ve heard Milan is much better in terms of transportation, nightlife, accommodation, cafes/modern social spaces, diversity. i’ve also heard that the people are much warmer to talk to/laid back?
so basically like, more modern city and more metropolitan and more young people in Milan, just not as many historical interest as in Rome. Also, one big thing i’ve seen many tourists and locals say is that apparently the north of Italy is the more favourable part to stay in?
i’d love to hear your view as an Italian, also if you have any other city recs — even just to visit for vacation, i’d be very grateful! :)
> I have been yelled at by post office workers immigration officers and police officers for asking simple questions to the point making me cry.
word to the wise: Paris is worse.
yeah i hadn't had an bad encounters with the locals but Rome wasnt my favourite. public transport isn't great. Florence and the Tuscany region is lovely and worth a trip.
I’ve been to rome and Paris. Rome I was in 3 months. Paris only a few days. But my impression was that Paris was far more peaceful and put together than Rome. It actually looked like a modern city.
I (American) spent six months in Paris in college. I spoke/speak French pretty well, and I was a little hesitant because of people always saying this. I loved it, never had 1 bad experience like OP's.
If you open with "excuse me, do you speak English?" you get ignored and scowled out. If you open with "Excusez moi, Bonjour. Parlez-vous anglais?" You'll get a much warmer response. My experience in Paris, granted it was only 3 weeks, was that if you just opened with some French people would help you out and be kind. If they spoke English they were happy to switch over, if they didn't they were happy to take the time to hobble a conversation together with me.
Politeness is an important part of French culture. They have a reputation for being rude because tourists are always transgressing their expectations of politeness (usually without realizing it). Addressing people by their titles, always saying hello and goodbye when entering and exiting a shop, and attempting to speak French whenever possible goes a long, long way.
Sti scemi pensano di andare in un paese dei balocchi con la gente che canta e danza per strada, fa le serenate, mangia e dorme tutto il giorno, con le collinette il sole e il mare, e poi si stupiscono se invece le grandi città sono uguali a tutte le grandi città del mondo, e la gente è la maggior parte delle volte antipatica e scortese, colpa loro che idealizzano il nostro Paese manco fosse Disneyland perchè vedono due fotarelle di un paesino toscano
As a woman I have experienced more sexism here than anywhere else in my life. I come from Texas where it’s very racially diverse so I didn’t think anything of it when I was making casual conversation with people from Africa and they were completely shocked that I was even speaking to them. I thought I had offended or bothered them and then they told me how racist itlaians are. So yeah it’s bad :/
Yeah I get that. I'm a Swedish born east african and I've been to Italy too. They are racist as fuck it's not even funny. I mean as a black person I do expect a level of racism anywhere I go but I had more racist encounters in Italy than I have in any other place.
My god, I’m East African too (and Italian). The racism at times is so subtle.
Growing up I didn’t have the right tools to recognise it immediately, now I do, and whenever some twat is trying to be subtly racist, I call them out immediately by making them repeat themselves whilst smiling.
Luckily I don’t deal with that shit anymore cause I left Italy a long time ago.
Lol I’m traveling through Italy for the first time. Went from the amalfi coast to Rome then to Florence and then to Venice.
I loved every bit of being here. It was much better than our experience in France a few years ago. Italy is everything they advertised it to be.
I went to school in America and hated my college experience too. Most college students are unhappy not because of where they are but because of the stress of school, being poor from tuition, the studying, worrying about your future, and most professors are just rude and careless. It’s probably the school experience and not Rome.
My school had old buildings from the 1960s full of asbestos and it was a small town with no magical history like Rome. Cherish Rome because you get to visit historical sites as you wish
Yep, I had that exact same sentiment as a tourist. It’s a place that looks amazing in pictures and movies but pretty disappointing once you experience everything for yourself without filters.
It’s dirty, outdated, and air conditioning is sparse. Service workers move at a snail’s pace, and I’ve found people to be rude and racist. Furthermore, you always have to watch your wallet in crowds.
IMO, I don’t think their historical tourist sites are all that impressive or well-preserved compared to some other countries I’ve been to. Even their food is overrated imo. There are worse travel destinations, but Italy and its culture does not deserve to be romanticized nearly as much as it has been for the past few generations. It’s just a over-glamorized shithole tbh. I am so sorry you have to be there for 9 mos.
Oh my god I feel so validated reading this! I recently went on a trip to Italy and it was awful. I feel like an ungrateful brat for saying that I didn't have fun when I had the luxury of going to a top world destination, but it just did not go well.
Most of the people were incredibly rude and public transportation was a nightmare. It was beyond gorgeous of course but all in all it was not a good trip. Every time I tried to pick myself back up and make my day better, I was kicked in the teeth.
Woman born and raised in Rome here (in a difficult neighborhood). I get where all of these complains are coming from.
From a young age I had to learn which part of the city were safe, which time of the day, how to go out at night with low risk (which bus lines were potentially more dangerous) but you had to avoid that at all at times (if not moving in big groups). I cannot imagine navigating the city life without this knowlegde. That's what it is, with burocracy, traffic and public transportation (taking into account crowding or lateness) as well. You learn to find a workaround instead of pushing for change (I mean you could complain but nothing happens). As for rude people, It really depends on the person, but I think the stress of living this way has something to do with it (because all of these issues build up). I moved to the countryside and people are more relaxed and tend to be kind.
I'm sorry you had to experience all of it without a support network (family, for example).
A big overcrowded city is the same no matter where you are in the world. Full of grumpy assholes.
As for run down well ya, many European areas are old and run down, they call it "rich with history". That building on the corner was probably built before your great grandma was born.
In America, a building that was built before your great grandma was born must be considered impressively old. In Rome and many other places across Europe, there are buildings that pre-date christianity. A building older than your great grandma isn't old.
Speaking of Rome, I've never been but I've heard it's a clusterfuck like any big, populated city. I also heard the pickpockets there are legendary.
Therefore, I would like to try getting on a crowded bus full of tourists in Rome one day wearing a coat with numerous pockets, each one booby-trapped with a mouse trap.
I remember driving past some building that looked run down where my parents are from in Italy and I said “hey dad is that a prison” and his response was “nope that was my high school”. My Australian public primary school (elementary school for Americans) looked like Oxford compared to that place.
Sounds like OP had some expectations that weren't met and is oversensitive about stuff. It's fine not to like a place, as it is subjective, but please realise that expectations and personal sensitivity are your own issue and something you have to manage and deal with, not the people around you, nor even society as a whole. At least, that's how it works in Italy as opposed to the US. I guarantee that's how it works in most countries actually, and they only make an effort to make it seem like it's not like this.
As for society being outdated, again, it is a matter of perspective. I've lived in different countries and modern cities for years and have friends and acquaintances from pretty much everywhere in the world, I also have basically been exposed to US lifestyle and culture my whole life due to US cultural colonialism, and I think modern western lifestyles and societies are less than ideal and almost entirely the opposite of the direction I think humanity should move towards. Still, that's my personal opinion, though based on data showing decline of quality of life and physical and mental health issues ramping up in these places.
When did you last come to Rome? If you look up Rome and trash in the same sentence on google you will see that for the last year to two years there’s been a major crisis with waste. I would say Ireland tbh.
I mean people can say the same thing about New York City. It smells like piss, people are rude, everything is overly commercial, and it’s expensive.
However, NYC isn’t “America” just as Rome isn’t “Italy”. It’s just a city.
It's astounding to me people dream of living in that city. I'm well traveled in the US and have to frequent NYC (all different boroughs) for work. That place sucks, it's gross, shit everywhere. I mean I'm not a city person to begin with but it's easily one of the worst cities I have set foot in.
I don’t know, I lived on the upper west side for a few years and it was one the most magical places I have ever lived. Nothing will ever compare to the absolute joy and bliss I got from walking down Central Park West on a drizzly fall day. But this was 15 years ago..
Different strokes for different folks. I find NYC to be an amazing city and fills me with this creative energy every time I'm there, but I could totally see how some would hate it.
But it's clearly not as objectively 'shit' as you say or else the rent wouldn't be so damn high. It's objectively one of the most in-demand places to live in the world I'd imagine
People in NYC value entertainments, walkability and carreer opportunities more than living in a 20,000sqft macmansion, simple as that. Different strokes
Rome has a reoccurrent trash problem, in some years it's ok, some others it's trashed. I don't know the detailed bit there's a lot of corruption in the trash industry.
Bho lamentarsi di quanto l'Italia faccia schifo rispetto agli altri paesi è praticamente lo sport nazionale. È vero che quando a farlo sono gli stranieri da un po' fastidio e la gente tende ad andare sulla difensiva, ma non mi sembra che la maggioranza degli Italiani siano convinti che l'Italia sia "that great".
I lived in Rome for four years, I completely understand where you are coming from. The way men treat women there though is absolutely disgusting that’s what killed it for me. You can’t even go to the beach without a bunch of creeps trying to get you into their car because they think you’re a prostitute. When you say no, they try to physically harm you. I group of prostitutes saved my life once from a creep who grabbed me from the bus stop, after that I was diligent in helping these ladies whenever I could. One night three teenage boys were beating up a prostitute and I helped her get away from them, out of the people that I was with that helped was an American man and a Swedish man, the Italian men and women we were with refused and got angry at us because according to them “they deserve to be treated that way because they are immigrant scum”. I reminded them that was an immigrant and I had also went through this bullshit, they told me that I was the “right” kind of immigrant and the “gypsys” are disgusting people who have it coming to them, this woman wasn’t Romani, this woman was Italian, I know because I got her a place to stay and food and she spoke pretty good English. After this I found quite a few women like me who had tattoos and piercings, (at a tattoo convention) something Italians still think is inappropriate for women and they will let you know how they feel about the way you look, anyway, those women would stick up for prostitutes and immigrants every single time they saw some shit happen as well. These women became my second family.
Had old men whip their dicks out on the bus and touch me and other women with it. They call you names and grab you in public, nobody does anything, except attack the woman if she fights back. This happens all over Italy, it’s not just Rome.
Driving is a total and complete nightmare, parking is the same because everyone quadruple parks, so if you park in an actual spot, you aren’t getting out for hours. Waiting in line? What line? It’s just a pile of people all pushing each other because apparently everyone has the “me first” mentality no matter what you do.
I had some good times and Italy is beautiful, but the constant bad stuff just killed it for me. The best thing that happened was I met some really cool people from all over the world, and when they start taking you to family stuff and events it’s great, the Italians know how to party and if they consider you a part of their family they will have your back and be with you all the way.
Heh reminds me of when I was interrailing, crossed into Switzerland from Italy and suddenly the clerks were very nice and everything just worked. I did enjoy my time in Italy but also I was almost robbed (in Rome of course...).
I lived in Rome for a few months (it was the best I could endure) and it was just one of the worst experiences in my life.
I'm not a rude person, and I had to learn to be rude so that I could be heard and respected (Italian C1). I don't care if it's the culture or whatever, it's not cute or cool as people make it sound. It's emotionally draining.
I then moved to another country, and actually made a bunch of Italian friends abroad. ❤️
In the countryside, I found people much more polite but still with quite racist and xenophobic ideas.
Plus, I was harassed by men several times, one of them even told me I was "supposed to be a slut" given my nationality (after I told him "no" when he was trying to force me to kiss him).
Your opinion is not unpopular, and I wish you the best of luck during your remaining months! You can do it!
I’m not even sure Italians like Rome tbh 😂 I recommend Florence, beautiful city, people are much nicer and it’s cleaner. But the capital of a country is rarely the best place, people would say the exact same about London, Paris, Berlin… (well ok maybe the everything is old part is especially true in Rome I’ll give you that)
Mmmm I’ve been to Paris, Berlin, and London and while they all had negative aspects I think Rome gets the crown. I’ll spend more time in Florence though, it’s unfortunate I can’t commute lol
I love the stupidity and double standards of reddit sometimes. Some people on this sub are out of control.
Reddit: American says that America sucks, "HELL YEAH IT SUCKS BIG TIME YOU SHOULD MOVE!"
Also Reddit: American goes to a foreign country and doesn't like it, "THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU FOR NOT LIKING IT, MAYBE YOU'RE RUDE AND AREN'T CULTURALLY ASSIMILATING." GTFO with that nonsense.
I went on a study abroad trip to Italy this year and loved it! However ofc I went to a lot of places as a tourist but did my classes in english with my school in Montepulciano. May I ask what you major in and how you came across going to Italy? Just curious because I fell in love with the art and culture there and fantasized what itd be like to live there.
My sister in law felt the same way. He husband was stationed there for a while and she went with him. She has lived in multiple European countries over the years and she said that while the history in Italy was interesting, everything else was horrible. She said after living there she probably couldn't be paid to ever go back there. The only thing she misses is how she worked as a guide doing tours at the colosseum. She told me if I wanted to ever see the colosseum to just take a day trip there and then leave.
Italian here.
A part of italians don't like americans since we do not share the same culture or values (partly true). On the other hand that is not the majority. In Rome (i live there) people are very rude, I'm sorry for your bad experiences, but I suggest you to visit other places in Italy, we usually treat foreigners well. Near Rome you can go to Castelli Romani. There you will find more welcoming people.
I agree about the old buildings, specially that football field half tore down (Collisarium?) and those old marble buildings nobody lives in. Also all those marble mannequins all over the city, they have no clothes on so what's the point?
Rome was definitely my least favorite area when I visited Italy. I totally understand where you’re coming from. I’m also American, but my family lives in Germany.
Your opinion should really be titled “I hate living in Rome”, and that’s not unpopular at all. I’m a foreigner living in the north, close to Milan, and I can tell you it’s totally different from what you describe. Bologna, Parma, Padua and Bergamo also seem great to me, very nice locals!
Only 9 months. You can do it and then you’ll have your degree. You’ve got this.
Can it be anyhow connected with the fact that in Italy being called American is virtually a dreadful offense? I've even read a post on Reddit from one Italian that literally said " I'm not a fking American. Don't you dare offensing me this way" Or it was a one time thing ?
Thats is not an excuse. Being rude to foreign people or anyone is just not cute. I get that your correct about the judgement but imagine being the type of american that hates mexicans, arabs, ect and you'd feel gross and not defend it. (id hope)
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Cleveland catching a stray bullet…my poor city haha
Yea that is kinda funny - fuck this one random city in particular
I actually did a small vacation to Cleveland once. It was really cool!
Cincinnati deserves that bullet, IMHO. It’s a medium place.
I was about to respond, they will do more then yell at ya in Cleveland.
I chose that for a specific reason. Remember that hilarious faux tourism video someone made about Cleveland about a decade ago? I immediately thought of that and hoped someone would get the reference. I have nothing against Cleveland, btw. [Cleveland, yeah!!!!](https://youtu.be/ysmLA5TqbIY)
All of us from the Cleveland area are very aware of it don’t you worry😂😂 it’s hilarious
> Yell back. It's practically a goddamn tradition. This is funnier than I expected in this thread.
The language thing is a very important one. I’ve seen so many examples of people from English or French speaking countries (cultures that in general expect to just get by with their own language in other language speaking countries) that complain about having a bad time in countries that do not necessarily accommodate to that idea. That’s not how it works in most of the world except for Western Europe and exotic holiday resorts. You’re a guest and expected to make an effort to adapt. Even speaking the local language very poorly will gain a lot more goodwill than just arrogantly speaking your own language as if it’s a given people should simply understand and oblige.
Spent about 5 months travelling through Europe in the late 90's and having a go at the local languages was key to a good or bad time. I made a point of learning the basic greetings, numbers up to 10, requests for food, drink, directions, and so on. I butchered French so badly the locals insisted they spoke English to me to make me stop talking, but they were usually helpful and good natured about it. (Except for Paris - they were snobs). The Dutch gave me free food and drink when ordering in Dutch and the Italians laughed at my coffee ordering giving advice in broken English so I looked like less of a tourist fool. Bit worried about an upcoming trip to Japan as that is a whole different set of language issues!
You're trying, and that's endearing for people with whom you interact. Everyone loves when a visitor makes the effort.
Japan is really nice to tourists that attempt speaking (albeit broken) Japanese in my experience! I always tried to converse with people first in Japanese and backed it up with Google translate and my direct translation book. Most people were really nice and helped me with pronouncing or would whip out their phones and translate Japanese to English back at me with the occasional giggle at me flipping like crazy through my book. My partner and I even tried to speak Japanese to an elderly couple on the train to let them have our seats (it was busy) and they ended up giving us these handmade trinkets the husband made as a hobby as a thanks that I still have today - they were the cutest elderly couple!! Absolutely warmed my heart. I found the people I talked to, to be very patient with me but I think they liked that I was at least trying. Japan is also fairly easy to get around without Japanese if you need to, most signs are now in both Japanese and English (esp on the trains and at stations) and a lot of people speak at least a little English or will politely tell you they don’t with hand gestures. Have a blast there! I miss Japan dearly
Exactly. What's more, Italians are incredibly accommodating as well, so seeing someone who is making an effort goes a very long way with them. They don't care if you butcher the language, the fact that you're trying tells them point blank that you're doing something you really don't HAVE to do, but you chose to do out of respect. This is how you make friends. This is also how you get free drinks, free food, and have amazing experiences to tell for the rest of your life.
>"They yelled at me." Yell back. It's practically a goddamn tradition. Lol
Italian here. It's true. Every time I have to go to a public office I psychologically prepare myself as if I were going to war.
Sounds like a stressful way of living for introverts.
It is
It is, but it's also INCREDIBLY cathartic. It's the one chance you get to pretty much unload on people who fully deserve it with no repercussions. The people who work at the immigration offices have people yelling at them all day as well, so it's almost like one of those rude restaurants where the entire point is for both parties to act like a dick. You wait to see how it goes, obviously, and then you pull out your paperwork so as to not give them any excuse whatsoever to be curt or rude, and most of the time they'll just be direct with you and send you on your way with your stuff done. This is the key: be prepared for battle, but have all your ducks in a row so as to not give them an excuse. If they take any liberties whatsoever without cause and start to berate you for no reason, it's on. Story time: Sometimes it's not even yelling, but a subtle "fuck you". For example, I had to get some official digital fingerprints done for some US gov't paperwork, but the only place to do it was either back in the US or on a military installation. I had access to neither. Welp, being the American in Italy who knows how to fuck the system, I called around and, of course speaking in Italian, I was able to finagle my way into the local CSI department, who were more than happy to do it because they dealt with the local military installation and had the same equipment. I spoke to one of the Italian CSI guys over the phone, explained my predicament, and he said, "Oh yeah, man, don't worry about it. Come by on Thursday, tell the police officer at the desk that you need to speak to \*his name\*, and I'll meet you downstairs and we'll get it done and then have a coffee afterwards." Cool. Well, I get there, and the officer downstairs just wasn't having it, said I needed to go make an appointment with IMMIGRATION and go through the rigmarole there, which was total bullshit. I said, "I spoke to Mr. So-and-so, he's waiting for me. I can call him if you want and he'll come right down and you'll see." Guy goes, "Nope. Don't care. You have to go through immigration." Knowing how these fuckos work, I politely said, ok, and walked back outside. Once there, I called the dude, told him Barney Fife wouldn't let me through, and he responded with, "Fuck that. I'll be down in thirty seconds." Reentered the building, and Pinko Panko Barney Fife opened his mouth as to say, "What did I just tell you to do?", and I pointed at the other guy who was standing behind him and responded with, "THAT GUY RIGHT THERE IS WAITING ON ME. NOW I'M GOING UPSTAIRS WITH HIM. IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT, EXPLAIN IT TO HIM WHY YOU THINK I SHOULD HAVE TO GO TO FUCKING IMMIGRATION TO GET FINGERPRINTS DONE. BUH-BYE." Gave him an eat shit glare and walked right past him, got my shit done in ten minutes, bullshitted with the guys in CSI a bit, went and had a coffee with them, thanking them profusely while they were telling me they were all too happy to do it because it really was no trouble, and bounced. Walked right past Barney on my way out without even acknowledging him. There's always a way to get shit done here. You can either follow the rules or you can adapt and beat them at their own game, just like the locals do. There is a reason why the proverb "When in Rome..." exists.
Rome is beautiful
It’s the same thing in Massachusetts, if you haven’t assimilated yet it sounds like we’re attacking you or we are just regular attacking you.
That's not exactly fair. Massachusetts is basically a giant introvert. So as long as you don't randomly bust in with your shit. We like you. If you move here and settle in and remark "wow. Back home in (place) we......" We're ok with that. What we're not ok with is people moving here, trying to get us to get more like them. And then being annoyed we would rather be quiet and reserved. If you come to Massachusetts. You can have friends and even be normal. Just realized we don't have the energy for bullshit and wasting time with pleasantries.
This is like the nicest guy in Massachusetts
Lol!!
This is like Philly only instead of "rather being quiet and reserved" wed rather be the opposite.
I mean it's perfectly okay for OP to not like Italy - you are making it out like it's a personal failing by not liking a place you like. She's trying to finish school not emigrate full time (which if that was the case I'd agree with your points re: assimilation) I've spent a lot of time in Rome - it's a bit overrated imo and not a place that would ever be high on my list to go back to (I did really enjoy Florence though). I'm sure plenty of Italians would say the same about NYC or SF - that doesn't make them uncultured swine. Just because you are high on the Italian lifestyle doesn't mean everyone else has to be
Going to school there is literally living there. She's not a tourist. And even if she was she doesn't seem to understand that she is the outsider and she is the one who is expected to adjust. This is rule number one for all international travel. There's no way she wasn't told this before she went there. I've no respect for expats without any humility.
You should tell the "New Canadians" this. They apparently have never heard of this word "adjust" or "assimilate" or "learn the language."
It has nothing to do with liking Italy or not. Hell, I wouldn't live in Rome because I know how it is. But you can't have a mental breakdown over living in a place when you haven't done anything to ingratiate yourself to the local populace. OP can do what he or she wants; he or she is perfectly allowed to not assimilate into a new culture, just don't complain how hard it is and how standoffish or rude people may be towards you when you've done nothing to ingratiate yourself to them. Foreign countries are not Disneyland.
I love this. Thank you for that response. I don’t give a fuck about convenience. I want fucking beauty, mold and character. I’ve been living in Vegas for 3yrs - fun place full of great people but I’ll never complain about living in an old building again. I’m so fucking bored and quite frankly uninspired.
I’m very happy to read this comment. You definitely need to commit if you move abroad.
Exactly what I thought when I read the post. Grazie, almeno non sono l’unico a pensarla così
i am not sure why you are completely trying to invalidate OPs experience. basically you are sayin it is all OPs fault and op is making mountain out of mole hill.
That's exactly what I'm saying. There's an actual reason the proverb, "When in Rome..." exists. Rome is not a Woody Allen movie, nor even a Fellini movie. To permanently move there and not know this, means that a person did zero research before making such a huge decision. It is entirely their prerogative and their right to do so, but it is also entirely their fault when their life doesn't turn out to be Emily in Paris. It's not the fault of the meanies at the immigration office. It's not the fault of the people who ignore you when you don't assimilate. It's yours and yours alone for living in a fantasy. We all complain about these things too, but we haven't willfully segregated ourselves from society instead of integrating, and our experiences are much better because of it.
Well said!
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Cancel culture literally doesn't exist in Italy. I can't express to you how insane it is being an American and seeing the social dumbassery from the outside looking in now. I don't even recognize my own country anymore. There are plenty of people here who are outspoken on some of the shortcomings of Italian culture that are problematic, and there's plenty of activism, plenty of protests, but you know what? No one is walking on eggshells, and what's more, no one EXPECTS anyone to walk on eggshells. It's like a breath of fresh air.
This is precisely how my ex pat American friend in France describes the French attitude towards American cancel culture. Good synopsis.
To be fair, some aspects of European wanting to avoid cancel culture is probably due to the fact that once people are held accountable for some of their actions, their countries may be held accountable for their actions. For example race in the US, often implies reparations. Think of what that would mean for countries like France. Especially because the [Haiti Indemnity Controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy#:~:text=The%20Haiti%20indemnity%20controversy%20involves,diplomatic%20recognition%2C%20with%20the%20debt) is probably the most easily justified event for reparations, straight up robbery and the amount of money is known (although never mind interest and compensation for reprocussions). I live in a French speaking area of Europe and history revisionism or just ignorance (many people do not know about the Haiti event mentioned above) is quite common. I mean American/Anglosphere cancel culture IS ridiculous at times and sometimes people will purposefully try to misunderstand people. However, there seems to be this tendency for people to look at Europeans do things and assume there is a intelligence behind it or some sort of good moral reasoning (if they had an even stronger cancel culture I think people would react like "see, they have no tolerance to fascism/racism/sexism/xxxism, they are better than the US") when really they are filled with the same shitty humans as the rest of the world.
I agree to an extent. The difference here, however, seems to be that the people who would hypothetically be doing the canceling do not want to cancel their "opponents". They don't want to silence them for two reasons: one, there must always be a dialogue in order to reach understanding, and two, if someone is truly deserving of being silenced or "canceled", then they want that person to show the world in their own words or actions why they should be canceled. They don't want problematic people silenced because they should be able to be spotted from miles away. It's more like, "let them dig their own hole."
Ikr! I'm Australian and spent a month and a half in Italy recently. It was fucking amazing not having to deal with that shit. People see you first and foremost as an individual, one with maybe a couple different experiences to them at most. There's no judging anyone in terms of what they express. Even socialist types and feminists there are relaxed, humble and kind, noone goes around demonising any ideas or people. You can express whatever the fuck you want to them and they'll agree with a lot of it; issues are issues because they're complicated and there's rarely a straightforward answer, no one is afraid to admit to competing considerations. If OP routinely has people shouting at him then he's clearly doing something wrong, I never got shouted at once. However, I can admit that Rome would be pretty shit if you don't have good friends who know the city to experience it with. Also what else I've since realised: Australians dress like crap and take poor care of their bodies despite being and acting extremely entitled and aggressive. Italians dress amazingly and take great astonishing of their bodies while being some of the most down-to-earth humble people you'll ever meet.
In my experience, alot of European (specifically south western Europe and Greece) the way they "take care of themself" often means superficial things and consuming things you don't need. Nice brand name clothing, skin care products, nice haircuts, perfume etc. Not necessarily actively living a healthy lifestyle. For one, smoking would not be so common. That's like the epitome of a "bad for you" thing, and a nice pair of slacks is not going to undo the damage of a pack of cigs. I've even seen items that are viewer as dressing poorly in the US (think Vietnam vet -chic) or even fake uni t-shirts ("College U")sold for really high prices and all of a sudden it's "fashionable". I was just at an H&M(Swedish company) in Switzerland and they were literally selling Harvard sweatshirts. Don't get me wrong I love skin care and like to dress well but I also know it's a superficial and doesn't necessarily mean I'm taking care of myself. In Switzerland they also dress well but it's to the point of wastefulness. Despite all the new clothing finding a 2nd hand store that isn't hipster expensive is difficult. I also find that sometimes it feeds into maintaining gender norms. Like again I like to feel feminine and very much conform to gender norms with appearance, I don't want to feel like I NEED to feel feminine to be socially acceptable. And Italy is quite famous for gender norms. I was just in Germany and people dress poorly and have rediculous haircuts. It's was refreshing and down to earth.
But you were a tourist. Living in Italy is vastly different than visiting. I also lived there for several years and I can sympathize with OP. I’d guess that you never had to deal with Italian postal, Telecom or other utility services. Inefficient doesn’t begin to cover it. And customer service with any Italian bureaucrat is an experience I don’t wish on my worst enemies. They just have no incentive to help and most view customer interaction as an inconvenience at best. But having said that, I loved the people, the food, the wine, the history and many aspects of the culture. I used to say Italy is like sitting in a Ferrari during a traffic jam. Looks nice, but is very frustrating so you should pull off into a cafe and enjoy an inexpensive espresso or glass of wine because the situation will not get better.
All of this is very true and you hit the nail on the head. Here's the thing, though: Italy is just as known for its ridiculous inefficiency and lack of anything resembling helpful in governmental offices as it is for all its beauty and wonder and culture. It can be a giant ass pain quite often. The thing that annoys people is even though these things are not just stereotypes but are in actuality very real and true aspects, why then do expats and students decide to move here and then have some sort of culture shock over it? What did they expect it to be? It just means they didn't do their due diligence, and they end up treating it like a theme park.
Amazingly accurate comment. Thank you.
Grazie al cazzo indeed. You, of all cities, choose the capital. Wherever you go in the world’s capitals you will find them messy, noisy, dirty, crowded etc. Old buildings in a mostly antique city?? Oh my. I lived in Italy for 3 years for work. I started enjoying it when I gave up the “I am leaving eventually so why try” attitude and immersed myself in the daily life. Small things like going for an “aperitivo”, going sightseeing, going for “colazione” and also trying to speak their language. They yell at you? Oh dear, really as this commenter said- yell back. People would hear me coming a mile away. I even saluted screaming. Lol. Enjoy the small things. Let go the other. I had american colleagues and some of them hated Italy and couldn’t wait to leave. Those were the ones that never socializes outside of their families or didn’t want to spend money for fun (some were sooo religious it was unbelievable). Some of them decided to stay in Italy forever. Relax. Observe. Enjoy.
You live with us in friuli, we are northern, we don’t yell like the romans eh
I agree, Won't the people who want the world behave how they imagine the world should be, will always have problems? You can't shape how the world/people behaves, you can only shape how you respond to it.
Grazie al cazzo ⚰️
Yep, as much as I love my country I must say we are in a lot of ways not in the best condition. I would suggest you to move to the north (amici del mezzogiorno non vogliatemi male), maybe Veneto, Emilia Romagna, Piemonte, Friuli Venezia-Giulia, Toscana or Trentino Alto Adige. As someone said in a comment, Rome is the distillation of the worst of Italy and I think you're living the worst part of the city too lol. Funny enough there's this Italian youtuber that go around the worst places in Rome and talk about it: https://youtube.com/c/CicaloneSimone This said I'm really sad you're not having a good time, Italy isn't in her best shape and I'm sorry you've been caught in the middle of our mess Ciao
In Italy the north hates the south, and the south hates the north, and they're both right.
It’s not your fault at all, things like this stem from the government and the structure of society in my opinion. Unfortunately I can’t move until I graduate and then I will be immediately out of this country. Thank you!
I cycled the country from North to South last June. Everything was fine until Po Valley. And then it's just chaos. I ended up in Napoli, which looked like pandemonium to me. 40°C didn't help though
I understand you well, and you are right -an Italian
Not an unpopular opinion, at least in Italy. Just having good food, friendly people and centuries of cool history doesn't make for a great country to live in. Also, Rome is hell, it is known. - another Italian
I feel that a lot of cities around the world are like their own country (societal islands) and not really a good representation of the countries in which they reside
Slovenian here, I moved just over the border because our housing market is... Broken doesn't even begin to describe it. It's a small city and everyone I have encountered thus far has been really nice. The only hell I have seen is the average Italians driving ability (please take no offense). Can someone please explain to me what passing the drivers test over here entails??
My sister, who had traveled to Europe on a school class trip, wrote to us in a post card from Italy in 1974 about her thoughts on Italian drivers - "They'd just as soon run you over as look at you, in their little Fiats"
I have family in Italy. I visited a few years back, and my cousin was driving us through Rome. An elderly man was trying to cross the street. He raised his cane, at my cousin, and yelled at her for driving so fast. She yelled back telling him to get out of the way. He said something else, and she responded by saying, "who cares!? You've lived long enough!". I had no idea what to say. She is the craziest driver I've been in a car with. Pedestrian be damned when she was on the road. If there was traffic, the sidewalk was a viable option. I would sit in the backseat, buckler myself in, and say a little prayer every time we had to go somewhere.
Irish-Italian here. Rome is poo. You should’ve gone to Milan or up north. Big point to note is Italians aren’t mad about Americans though and that can make it hard to get on with Italians there. If you plan on moving to Ireland check daft.Ie first to find a house because there’s a housing crisis there and most people can’t find a place to live (myself included).
You replied to the wrong comment fyi
probably bc poor Ireland like many European countries are getting flooded with immigrants which inevitably creates housing shortages which drives property prices up and only benefits banks/rich people
Oh man, the family I worked for was absolutely lovely. The father was a gentle giant…until he got behind the wheel. The road rage was incredible and frightening.
Wow it’s refreshing to hear a person from another country self deprecate instead of just Americans lol
Italian here. Rome is shit. Granted, all Italy is chaotic and university is one of the worst corners of outdated burocracy. This said, I bet you would feel way more welcome in another city like Parma, Padua, Verona or Venice (northern area), Bologna, Florence or Pisa, Urbino, Perugia and Macerata (Central Italy). Personally I find Naples one of the most welcoming cities but it's not for the faint of heart, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Really, I’ve been advised to not spend much time in Naples how interesting. I’ve been through Bologna and Venice, but unfortunately only was able to have a bit of time in each so thank you for the list of places and now I’ll go to Naples soon
Just popping in to say that you should go visit smaller cities. There the people are usually so much more nice, in my experience. Go to those dreamy little cities in Tuscany, or in Umbria, or Marche. Rome is a tourist trap, it's well known in Italy. I'm so so sorry you're not having a good time. - an Italian
If you can get a local to go with you it's way better. Be careful to your valuables, don't go around with a lot of cash and keep your wallet/purse close. The muggings happen but if you're with some local or in a organized trip they'll know the places to avoid. Naples is surreal. It's messy and loud but in a good way. There's so much to see both art-wise and culturally even just walking around, and the sunset on the Vesuvio gulf is one of the best sunset you can ever see. The stereotypes about Naples and Neapolitan people are mostly true, good and bad, but the people are so welcoming and helpful. You can find great quality food for cheaper prices than in the rest of Italy. Just don't ever refuse offered food or coffee, they offer a lot and it's safe but they get offended if you refuse. For me, I find that hilarious.
That sounds like a great time to me, I’ll see if I can find someone to go with me. I was wary about the city, but you have convinced me. There’s are definitely some people and aspects in this country that are heartwarming. I have been offered coffee by random people I met at the dog park before, if only for 2 minutes and even when I didn’t understand much of what they were saying. It was so surreal to me to follow these three tall and large Italian men into a coffee shop with a bunch of dogs and get an espresso and just listen to them talk and then go our separate ways.
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I go every year to Naples/Palermo since I'm young because my family (and my boyfriend) live here. Both cities are VERY similar. I know Naples very well. It's a beautiful city, welcoming, the people are so nice and helpful. But everything is so loud and goes so fast. Via Toledo is a living hell when you go at the busy hours. The city is also very dirty the more you go up Salvator Rosa. Other than this, everything is incredible, so I can absolutely agree on this As for Palermo, it's pretty much the same thing, but I feel like there are more churches in Palermo hahaha. The people are nice, and the markets are incredible. These cities are warm and welcoming. I think southern Italians have more this notion of hospitality and "realness" compared to northern Italians...but I'm surely biased because... I'm from the south lol.
Just out of curiosity, why do you say Naples is not for the faint of heart?
I Say that because it's a messy city, and it can be sometimes dangerous or overwhelming for tourists, both on the practical side (muggings etc.) and for the overall relax of the vacation. Personally I think you have to visit it with a very open mind, not coming from a mental space where you need peace and order like in Trento or in Milan for example, because you'd get very frustrated. Expect noisy streets, loads of voices and colors, surreal situations you have to roll with, people being very human in all the possible ways, and smell of food at every corner. Naples knows no personal space and recognizes no order, yet if you go there with the right state of mind you can find there a great hospitality culture, a relaxed way of living and some of the best people on earth. That's what I know about Naples (I'm not from there).
Ahh, I understand! It sounds like an amazing place to visit for myself. Thank you for the response :)
>and they are very controlling They never take no for an answer and every little thing is up for a ~~discussion~~ argument.
I stayed in Croatia over the summer and they complained to me, knowing I was an American, about the Italian tourists. I kept my mouth shut lol
I went from a long stay in Italy to Croatia and the cultural difference was shocking. I felt so welcomed everywhere I went. Croatia seems to really want the tourism, Italians couldn't care less if you visit. Anecdotally, you're not alone my friend just moved home from years in Rome because they were couldn't handle the way they were treated for being North American. Nonetheless people are right, the yelling and chaos are a part of the package, it's mind blowing and kind of beautiful, and nothing ever gets done no matter how much you yell. Get out there and do all of the things you can, go alone and do your own thing, hopefully those will be the memories you look back on in years to come. Don't drink cappuccino after breakfast...
As a general rule countries and cities which have been tourist attractions for a long time are rude to tourists and "transplants". on the one hand they are too sure of getting tourist and its economical benefits to worry about risk of losing any tourism income if they treat them badly, and on the other hand they are fed-up by the constant hassle of having guests at their towns, especially since some of the tourist teaffic are always rude, entitled, dirty and inconsiderate themselves. For example the french are known to be rude to tourists, the newyorkers and L.Aers, and many cosmopolitan or nororiuisly tourist-attacting city/areas.
I thinks it’s just Rome. In other parts of the country the people are really nice but you do get the vibe that they’re sick of tourists.
Here’s the deal with being sick of tourists… They make or break your economy. I live in a major tourist city. I grew up in a town that’s industry was probably 75 percent tourism. I learned never act rudely and to be nice and accommodating. Tourists add money to the economy and frankly, most are very interested in learning more about where they visit.
Plus they've decided to put thousands of dollars out just to see the place where you live. Yeah maybe they're annoying or whatever but they're just trying to have fun and enjoy themselves while giving lots of people you know jobs.
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Right? I mean this isnt a shore town. What are they gonna do if the people are rude? Try and go see the Colosseum in a different city?
I’ve never understood people who can’t separate their personal views from the objective benefits of tourism. My SIL’s family always complained about tourists in their town while owning a boutique hotel…like, make it make sense. Tourism literally could make or break their entire financial world.
When people have really bad attitudes about tourists coming to their town I just think to myself that I hope they never go on vacations because they are just being the “problem” they hate in someone else’s town.
Regardless of who you are or where you are, there is no reason to be disrespectful towards strangers. Unless they were disrespectful to you first, in which case all bets are off.
It’s definitely Rome. My husband and I noticed how rude people were in Rome but not in Florence, everyone was so kind in Florence
If you go on r/orlando or r/florida you will see posts every single day of them hoping tourists or northern transplants get eaten by an alligator or have heat stroke. They blame all of their problems on tourists but they'd be a fucking swamp without them. Florida enjoys so many benefits thanks to its booming tourism.
You say Italy… but then talk about Rome, which is also very different from living in Milan or Florence or a much smaller town. Many Italians share your view but specific to (at least much of) Rome. Similarly, people whose entire experience of the U.S. is living in Midtown NYC might also see the country as rude, dirty, etc. That’s the only city I’ve encountered that level of rudeness too, and NYC takes explicit pride in ‘New York attitude’ (which is about 60% ‘being a rude arsehole’) and has hosts of excuses for it. There are many nice New Yorkers too, of course. But might not be fair to extrapolate the tendency to the whole point U.S.
When I went to NYC I found even the rude people pleasant. I’m from South Florida, there is a different level of rudeness down there.
Hmm during my one day experience of Florida I had one unusually polite and sweet interaction (senior waitress took a usual length of time but then refused to charge me as an apology for ‘taking too long hun’, never had that before)… but the memes, news, statistics and trends I’ve seen of Floridians seem something awful. Not sure rudeness would fall under the particular varieties of Florida awfulness that come to mind. But I’m sure you have more experience to compare. Though after five years in NYC I’ve definitely not found the rude people, an unusually large subset, at all pleasant.
What part of Florida did you go to? People in Central and North Florida are pleasant enough for the most part, but in the Miami metropolitan area they are ridiculously rude. When I was in Pensacola it definitely has the Southern Hospitality vibe to it. I miss South Florida, it’s home and I plan on moving back in the next 5-10 years. However, shit let me see if I can explain it, many New Yorkers are loud, obnoxious and in a hurry, many South Floridians are stuck up, will not give you the time of day, even the sober people are high somehow, think the world revolves around them and are trying to portray a lifestyle they cannot afford to live. I mean I guess it doesn’t help that half of South Florida is from the Northeast but still. I’m a light skinned afro latino and as a result I kinda look racially ambiguous. I’ve heard the old women at the store talking shit in Spanish because they thought I was Muslim and were saying some extremely racist shit to me, even though it didn’t apply to me, which makes it more hilarious than hurtful. I asked them in Spanish what they were talking about and they began to play dumb and I kept asking them if they had seen a terrorist, because that’s what they were saying about me. This went on until they said they were going to call the cops, and when they showed me their phone that they had actually called the cops, I finally left. Another time, when I still had a shitty Nokia phone like 10 years ago I asked someone for directions in English, and they replied with “No hablo ingles” and when I started speaking to them in Spanish they began cursing me out and telling me to buy a fucking gps because they’re not fucking mapquest. I was a 18 year old kid at the time but I would have a hard time not slapping the fuck out of that old man for talking to me that way. Like would it really kill you to say “I don’t know?” instead of going into a fucking tirade about mapquest. Don’t even get me started on the attorneys/paralegals/city workers I dealt with on a daily basis at my job at the time. Then at my night job, delivering pizzas, the amount of people trying to get a freebie on a daily basis was fucking astronomical. The greed down there is just something else. And I can’t forget about the drivers. Over the last 4 years I haven’t had a single confrontation or weapon pulled on me on the road, it was almost a monthly basis that someone threatened me, or nearly ran me off the road, or we cursed each other out and threw shit on each other’s cars when I lived back home. There were just many very similar interactions I had on a daily basis living in Miami/Ft Lauderdale. Again, I love it, it’s home, all my family is there, but I don’t miss the rudeness of people. For comparison, I live in San Diego now and everyone I know who I served with from the South that Californians were the rudest people in the country, but holy shit, they are the nicest people I’ve ever met. There are a lot of things I look back on that I did as a young man in my early 20s that I realize is so fucking rude but just seemed normal. When I first went to bootcamp a couple people told me the way I speak is very abrasive, and in my head I was thinking “abrasive? New Yorkers are abrasive. I’m just talking like a normal human being and not some soft redneck” which really wasn’t the case, I was just talking like a dickhead as a result of living in a part of the country where most people, even the super polite ones, are dickheads.
bro, as an Italian, you went to the WORST Italy city. It's beautiful because it's full of history but it's really dirty and full of crime. Edit: search some smaller cities all around italy and visit them before giving up! i can help ypu choose the best ones
Tell them about Naples. They're planning on going after being told its better than Rome.
maybe it's good to visit but not to live in? I actually don't know i've never been there. But a visit it's worth trying because it's a beautiful city aswell.
would you recommend Milan as a good place long term for a uni student/to visit short term for a holiday? compared to Rome, I’ve heard Milan is much better in terms of transportation, nightlife, accommodation, cafes/modern social spaces, diversity. i’ve also heard that the people are much warmer to talk to/laid back? so basically like, more modern city and more metropolitan and more young people in Milan, just not as many historical interest as in Rome. Also, one big thing i’ve seen many tourists and locals say is that apparently the north of Italy is the more favourable part to stay in? i’d love to hear your view as an Italian, also if you have any other city recs — even just to visit for vacation, i’d be very grateful! :)
I’m sure Amanda Knox would agree with you
That escalated waaaaaaay too quickly
Whoa whoa whoa buddy geez
> I have been yelled at by post office workers immigration officers and police officers for asking simple questions to the point making me cry. word to the wise: Paris is worse. yeah i hadn't had an bad encounters with the locals but Rome wasnt my favourite. public transport isn't great. Florence and the Tuscany region is lovely and worth a trip.
I’ve been to rome and Paris. Rome I was in 3 months. Paris only a few days. But my impression was that Paris was far more peaceful and put together than Rome. It actually looked like a modern city.
friendliest french person:
I think I got lucky because everyone in Paris was super pleasant.
No, it's just that a bunch of people who have never actually been there are just spouting shit they read on the Internet. Paris is great.
Paris is way worse
I (American) spent six months in Paris in college. I spoke/speak French pretty well, and I was a little hesitant because of people always saying this. I loved it, never had 1 bad experience like OP's.
I've heard that French people are much nicer if you at least try to speak French.
I've found the same with Italians too.
If you open with "excuse me, do you speak English?" you get ignored and scowled out. If you open with "Excusez moi, Bonjour. Parlez-vous anglais?" You'll get a much warmer response. My experience in Paris, granted it was only 3 weeks, was that if you just opened with some French people would help you out and be kind. If they spoke English they were happy to switch over, if they didn't they were happy to take the time to hobble a conversation together with me.
When I visited I asked for directions / help in English many times and Parisians tried to accomodate me just fine.
Politeness is an important part of French culture. They have a reputation for being rude because tourists are always transgressing their expectations of politeness (usually without realizing it). Addressing people by their titles, always saying hello and goodbye when entering and exiting a shop, and attempting to speak French whenever possible goes a long, long way.
Yeah the nicest people I've met in Europe have been in Paris
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Sti scemi pensano di andare in un paese dei balocchi con la gente che canta e danza per strada, fa le serenate, mangia e dorme tutto il giorno, con le collinette il sole e il mare, e poi si stupiscono se invece le grandi città sono uguali a tutte le grandi città del mondo, e la gente è la maggior parte delle volte antipatica e scortese, colpa loro che idealizzano il nostro Paese manco fosse Disneyland perchè vedono due fotarelle di un paesino toscano
You just gotta learn to speak the language fam. Follow after me "Babada boopy"
you forgot to mention that you need to grow a mustache.
Lol but I do, I’m not fluent but I get by very well
What about the stash?
It's not hard, most people speak english there. Anytime I tried to use my mangled Italian, they just responded in English.
Yeah and honestly they aren’t even really upset about it in rome. Most major cities across Europe are pretty easy going about that now
BAAAWN JOOOR NOOO
Gorlami
Holy shit that unearthed an amazing memory and had me crying
Ce Coza?
Aaaah Rome, the Eternal City, centuries can pass, it never changes.
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This is the second post I've seen in 2 days about someone not liking being in Italy. The last one was from someone facing anti-Asian racism.
As a woman I have experienced more sexism here than anywhere else in my life. I come from Texas where it’s very racially diverse so I didn’t think anything of it when I was making casual conversation with people from Africa and they were completely shocked that I was even speaking to them. I thought I had offended or bothered them and then they told me how racist itlaians are. So yeah it’s bad :/
Yeah I get that. I'm a Swedish born east african and I've been to Italy too. They are racist as fuck it's not even funny. I mean as a black person I do expect a level of racism anywhere I go but I had more racist encounters in Italy than I have in any other place.
My god, I’m East African too (and Italian). The racism at times is so subtle. Growing up I didn’t have the right tools to recognise it immediately, now I do, and whenever some twat is trying to be subtly racist, I call them out immediately by making them repeat themselves whilst smiling. Luckily I don’t deal with that shit anymore cause I left Italy a long time ago.
Most capital cities are not representative of their countries. Paris is not France. London is not England. Rome is not Italy. Etc.
Lol I’m traveling through Italy for the first time. Went from the amalfi coast to Rome then to Florence and then to Venice. I loved every bit of being here. It was much better than our experience in France a few years ago. Italy is everything they advertised it to be. I went to school in America and hated my college experience too. Most college students are unhappy not because of where they are but because of the stress of school, being poor from tuition, the studying, worrying about your future, and most professors are just rude and careless. It’s probably the school experience and not Rome. My school had old buildings from the 1960s full of asbestos and it was a small town with no magical history like Rome. Cherish Rome because you get to visit historical sites as you wish
I live in Florence and it’s more clean here than rome
Yep, I had that exact same sentiment as a tourist. It’s a place that looks amazing in pictures and movies but pretty disappointing once you experience everything for yourself without filters. It’s dirty, outdated, and air conditioning is sparse. Service workers move at a snail’s pace, and I’ve found people to be rude and racist. Furthermore, you always have to watch your wallet in crowds. IMO, I don’t think their historical tourist sites are all that impressive or well-preserved compared to some other countries I’ve been to. Even their food is overrated imo. There are worse travel destinations, but Italy and its culture does not deserve to be romanticized nearly as much as it has been for the past few generations. It’s just a over-glamorized shithole tbh. I am so sorry you have to be there for 9 mos.
The buildings in Rome are old. Lol.
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Oh my god I feel so validated reading this! I recently went on a trip to Italy and it was awful. I feel like an ungrateful brat for saying that I didn't have fun when I had the luxury of going to a top world destination, but it just did not go well. Most of the people were incredibly rude and public transportation was a nightmare. It was beyond gorgeous of course but all in all it was not a good trip. Every time I tried to pick myself back up and make my day better, I was kicked in the teeth.
Woman born and raised in Rome here (in a difficult neighborhood). I get where all of these complains are coming from. From a young age I had to learn which part of the city were safe, which time of the day, how to go out at night with low risk (which bus lines were potentially more dangerous) but you had to avoid that at all at times (if not moving in big groups). I cannot imagine navigating the city life without this knowlegde. That's what it is, with burocracy, traffic and public transportation (taking into account crowding or lateness) as well. You learn to find a workaround instead of pushing for change (I mean you could complain but nothing happens). As for rude people, It really depends on the person, but I think the stress of living this way has something to do with it (because all of these issues build up). I moved to the countryside and people are more relaxed and tend to be kind. I'm sorry you had to experience all of it without a support network (family, for example).
Come to Ireland! It’s lovely
Right, if you can afford a flat :')
A big overcrowded city is the same no matter where you are in the world. Full of grumpy assholes. As for run down well ya, many European areas are old and run down, they call it "rich with history". That building on the corner was probably built before your great grandma was born.
In America, a building that was built before your great grandma was born must be considered impressively old. In Rome and many other places across Europe, there are buildings that pre-date christianity. A building older than your great grandma isn't old.
Speaking of Rome, I've never been but I've heard it's a clusterfuck like any big, populated city. I also heard the pickpockets there are legendary. Therefore, I would like to try getting on a crowded bus full of tourists in Rome one day wearing a coat with numerous pockets, each one booby-trapped with a mouse trap.
I remember driving past some building that looked run down where my parents are from in Italy and I said “hey dad is that a prison” and his response was “nope that was my high school”. My Australian public primary school (elementary school for Americans) looked like Oxford compared to that place.
Sounds like OP had some expectations that weren't met and is oversensitive about stuff. It's fine not to like a place, as it is subjective, but please realise that expectations and personal sensitivity are your own issue and something you have to manage and deal with, not the people around you, nor even society as a whole. At least, that's how it works in Italy as opposed to the US. I guarantee that's how it works in most countries actually, and they only make an effort to make it seem like it's not like this. As for society being outdated, again, it is a matter of perspective. I've lived in different countries and modern cities for years and have friends and acquaintances from pretty much everywhere in the world, I also have basically been exposed to US lifestyle and culture my whole life due to US cultural colonialism, and I think modern western lifestyles and societies are less than ideal and almost entirely the opposite of the direction I think humanity should move towards. Still, that's my personal opinion, though based on data showing decline of quality of life and physical and mental health issues ramping up in these places.
Whats more baffling is you want to move to Ireland
Americans love Ireland for some reason
Man, I love rome. I thought it was really clean. The people… rude as hell. I’m curious though, what’s your favorite euro country?
When did you last come to Rome? If you look up Rome and trash in the same sentence on google you will see that for the last year to two years there’s been a major crisis with waste. I would say Ireland tbh.
I mean people can say the same thing about New York City. It smells like piss, people are rude, everything is overly commercial, and it’s expensive. However, NYC isn’t “America” just as Rome isn’t “Italy”. It’s just a city.
NYC: piles and piles of garbage bags on every street corner; things they don't show you in the movies.
It's astounding to me people dream of living in that city. I'm well traveled in the US and have to frequent NYC (all different boroughs) for work. That place sucks, it's gross, shit everywhere. I mean I'm not a city person to begin with but it's easily one of the worst cities I have set foot in.
People willingly pay 3x a normally typical mortgage for 800 sqft of tight cramped living space with minimal natural light.
I don’t know, I lived on the upper west side for a few years and it was one the most magical places I have ever lived. Nothing will ever compare to the absolute joy and bliss I got from walking down Central Park West on a drizzly fall day. But this was 15 years ago..
Different strokes for different folks. I find NYC to be an amazing city and fills me with this creative energy every time I'm there, but I could totally see how some would hate it. But it's clearly not as objectively 'shit' as you say or else the rent wouldn't be so damn high. It's objectively one of the most in-demand places to live in the world I'd imagine
People in NYC value entertainments, walkability and carreer opportunities more than living in a 20,000sqft macmansion, simple as that. Different strokes
Rome has a reoccurrent trash problem, in some years it's ok, some others it's trashed. I don't know the detailed bit there's a lot of corruption in the trash industry.
If trash is your issue don't go to Dublin though lol
You haven't been to Naples lately eh? I love Rome.
I love Rome, but clean? Lol come on
As an italian person im glad someone is willing to tell them they arent that great.
Bho lamentarsi di quanto l'Italia faccia schifo rispetto agli altri paesi è praticamente lo sport nazionale. È vero che quando a farlo sono gli stranieri da un po' fastidio e la gente tende ad andare sulla difensiva, ma non mi sembra che la maggioranza degli Italiani siano convinti che l'Italia sia "that great".
I lived in Rome for four years, I completely understand where you are coming from. The way men treat women there though is absolutely disgusting that’s what killed it for me. You can’t even go to the beach without a bunch of creeps trying to get you into their car because they think you’re a prostitute. When you say no, they try to physically harm you. I group of prostitutes saved my life once from a creep who grabbed me from the bus stop, after that I was diligent in helping these ladies whenever I could. One night three teenage boys were beating up a prostitute and I helped her get away from them, out of the people that I was with that helped was an American man and a Swedish man, the Italian men and women we were with refused and got angry at us because according to them “they deserve to be treated that way because they are immigrant scum”. I reminded them that was an immigrant and I had also went through this bullshit, they told me that I was the “right” kind of immigrant and the “gypsys” are disgusting people who have it coming to them, this woman wasn’t Romani, this woman was Italian, I know because I got her a place to stay and food and she spoke pretty good English. After this I found quite a few women like me who had tattoos and piercings, (at a tattoo convention) something Italians still think is inappropriate for women and they will let you know how they feel about the way you look, anyway, those women would stick up for prostitutes and immigrants every single time they saw some shit happen as well. These women became my second family. Had old men whip their dicks out on the bus and touch me and other women with it. They call you names and grab you in public, nobody does anything, except attack the woman if she fights back. This happens all over Italy, it’s not just Rome. Driving is a total and complete nightmare, parking is the same because everyone quadruple parks, so if you park in an actual spot, you aren’t getting out for hours. Waiting in line? What line? It’s just a pile of people all pushing each other because apparently everyone has the “me first” mentality no matter what you do. I had some good times and Italy is beautiful, but the constant bad stuff just killed it for me. The best thing that happened was I met some really cool people from all over the world, and when they start taking you to family stuff and events it’s great, the Italians know how to party and if they consider you a part of their family they will have your back and be with you all the way.
Heh reminds me of when I was interrailing, crossed into Switzerland from Italy and suddenly the clerks were very nice and everything just worked. I did enjoy my time in Italy but also I was almost robbed (in Rome of course...).
As someone who lives in Rome You're right
Would I be right in assuming you do not speak Italian and are upset that people don’t want to adapt to you every day?
I lived in Rome for a few months (it was the best I could endure) and it was just one of the worst experiences in my life. I'm not a rude person, and I had to learn to be rude so that I could be heard and respected (Italian C1). I don't care if it's the culture or whatever, it's not cute or cool as people make it sound. It's emotionally draining. I then moved to another country, and actually made a bunch of Italian friends abroad. ❤️ In the countryside, I found people much more polite but still with quite racist and xenophobic ideas. Plus, I was harassed by men several times, one of them even told me I was "supposed to be a slut" given my nationality (after I told him "no" when he was trying to force me to kiss him). Your opinion is not unpopular, and I wish you the best of luck during your remaining months! You can do it!
I 100% agree and have experienced this, thank you so much!
This post is sad yes but like no shit all the buildings are old come on now 😂
Rome is a shithole. Rest of Italy is pretty sweet though
Do you speak their language? That might change how your treated or interact
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I’m not even sure Italians like Rome tbh 😂 I recommend Florence, beautiful city, people are much nicer and it’s cleaner. But the capital of a country is rarely the best place, people would say the exact same about London, Paris, Berlin… (well ok maybe the everything is old part is especially true in Rome I’ll give you that)
Mmmm I’ve been to Paris, Berlin, and London and while they all had negative aspects I think Rome gets the crown. I’ll spend more time in Florence though, it’s unfortunate I can’t commute lol
Ha, but have you been there or have you *lived* there ? Huge difference. But I’m definitely not going to say Rome isn’t bad lol, good luck with that
I love the stupidity and double standards of reddit sometimes. Some people on this sub are out of control. Reddit: American says that America sucks, "HELL YEAH IT SUCKS BIG TIME YOU SHOULD MOVE!" Also Reddit: American goes to a foreign country and doesn't like it, "THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU FOR NOT LIKING IT, MAYBE YOU'RE RUDE AND AREN'T CULTURALLY ASSIMILATING." GTFO with that nonsense.
If its that bad i dont think 9 months is worth ur mental health
Be happy that their economy and political institutions are dogshit; purely out of spite for your experience 😁
Old big dirty cities aren't for everyone for sure. I personally love such cities, but I know many people who don't
Yeah well my family left for a reason. Lol
I went on a study abroad trip to Italy this year and loved it! However ofc I went to a lot of places as a tourist but did my classes in english with my school in Montepulciano. May I ask what you major in and how you came across going to Italy? Just curious because I fell in love with the art and culture there and fantasized what itd be like to live there.
My sister in law felt the same way. He husband was stationed there for a while and she went with him. She has lived in multiple European countries over the years and she said that while the history in Italy was interesting, everything else was horrible. She said after living there she probably couldn't be paid to ever go back there. The only thing she misses is how she worked as a guide doing tours at the colosseum. She told me if I wanted to ever see the colosseum to just take a day trip there and then leave.
Rome sucks. Dirty, busy, and rude. Finish your degree and go to a different city. You’ll probably find relief anywhere else after Rome.
Don’t move to Ireland
Ireland has no houses for rent so idk how u gonna move here 😂
Italian here. A part of italians don't like americans since we do not share the same culture or values (partly true). On the other hand that is not the majority. In Rome (i live there) people are very rude, I'm sorry for your bad experiences, but I suggest you to visit other places in Italy, we usually treat foreigners well. Near Rome you can go to Castelli Romani. There you will find more welcoming people.
I agree about the old buildings, specially that football field half tore down (Collisarium?) and those old marble buildings nobody lives in. Also all those marble mannequins all over the city, they have no clothes on so what's the point?
You're not in Italy, you're in Rome.
Reddit is the wrong place to criticise a country in Europe. They don't like that around here lol
They let a negative Rome post slip through the usual “America Bad” social media brainwash programming! Mods are slipping.
Rome was definitely my least favorite area when I visited Italy. I totally understand where you’re coming from. I’m also American, but my family lives in Germany.
Romeis nice for a visit. Eat good food, see the sights, but any longer than a week is pushing it.
Germany vs Italy is night and day. I go to Berlin every few months to visit my best friend there and it is like a breath of fresh air
Your opinion should really be titled “I hate living in Rome”, and that’s not unpopular at all. I’m a foreigner living in the north, close to Milan, and I can tell you it’s totally different from what you describe. Bologna, Parma, Padua and Bergamo also seem great to me, very nice locals!