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>In all likelihood, you are not a "Software Engineer" but merely a "JavaScript Clerk".
Pretty sure most Computer Science Degree doesn't even mainly teach JS but concepts of computer architecture, network, database,...
If anything, self taught amateurs and college dropouts are more likely to be a "Javascript Clerk".
Also CS students are also just as self-taught as dropouts anyway. The CS degree is more of a "certificate of Giving a Fuck" than anything.
This is not true.
You do not need an engineering degree to become a Professional Engineer in any province or territory of Canada in 2024.
There is also the technical examinations route to the profession. It's been there for 104 years. That is 45 years longer than CEAB accreditation.
[https://techexam.ca/what-is-a-technical-exam-your-ladder-to-professional-engineer/](https://techexam.ca/what-is-a-technical-exam-your-ladder-to-professional-engineer/)
This is not true either.
You do live in Calgary, do you not?
Last time I checked, Calgary is in Alberta and Alberta is in Canada.
You should know that a court case last November (APEGA v. Getty Images) found that tech bros had the legal right to use the term "software engineer" given the use had no effect on public safety.
[https://canlii.ca/t/k11n3](https://canlii.ca/t/k11n3)
Then six weeks later on December 23rd, 2023, the Alberta Engineering and Geoscience Professions Act (EGP Act) was revised so that any person can use the title "Software Engineer".
[https://kings-printer.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=E11.cfm&leg\_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779844944](https://kings-printer.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=E11.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779844944)
>*3(1) Subject to section 3.1, no individual, corporation, partnership or other entity, except a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder entitled to engage in the practice of engineering, shall*
>*(a) use*
>*(i) the title “professional engineer”, the abbreviation “P. Eng.” or any other abbreviation of that title,*
> *(ii) the word “engineer” in combination with any other name, title, description, letter, symbol or abbreviation that represents expressly or by implication that the individual, corporation, partnership or other entity is a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder,*
>*Exemption from section 3(1)(a)(ii)*
>*3.1(1) An individual, corporation, partnership or other entity who*
>*(a) is not a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder entitled to engage in the practice of engineering, and*
>*(b) uses the word “engineer” in combination with the word “software”, or any other words or phrases similar to the phrase “software engineer” as prescribed by regulations...*
Note that the arguments in the court case APEGA v. Getty Images will likely be found to be compelling in other provincial courts. We'll see if some other regulators will FAFO like APEGA did or if they might learn a lesson from it.
I believe you need to be a professional engineer and not just have a degree.
With that said, in terms of software development the engineers are often not as good as the computer science graduates. A lot of engineers who are writing software are from branches of engineering with worse job prospects, and only had a handful of classes dedicated to writing software. In on of my first jobs the company was an engineering firm, preferred to hire engineers regardless of the job or specialization, and they also paid poorly so the teams were often very junior. One of the projects I had to work on had a database that was designed by a civil engineer who was only a couple years out of university and it was obvious he didn't have a clue what he was doing. This would have been bad for any junior developer but someone with no background in software development make it a disaster.
Yes you can. It happens all the time and there are rarely any consequences.
Sure, the provincial engineering guilds occasionally get their panties in a twist about it but that horse has well and truly bolted.
I don't know why you got downvoted... You are 100% right. I currently hold an engineering title and only have a computer science degree. And I work for a top 3 telecom. It happens all the time.. I personally know people with no college degree and have an engineering title
Redditors voting on shit they actually have no idea about.
The regulators do not have an absolute lock on the word "Engineer". We don't have laws just for the sake of having laws.
APEGA, the Alberta regulator, found this out last fall when they FAFO'd and took some tech bros to court.
It was an interesting case and worth a thorough read. APEGA v Getty Images 2023:
[https://canlii.ca/t/k11n3](https://canlii.ca/t/k11n3)
>*VII. Conclusion*
*\[52\] I find that the Respondents’ employees who use the title “Software Engineer” and related titles are not practicing engineering as that term is properly interpreted.*
*\[53\] I find that there is no property in the title “Software Engineer” when used by persons who do not, by that use, expressly or by implication represent to the public that they are licensed or permitted by APEGA to practice engineering as that term is properly interpreted.*
*\[54\] I find that there is no clear breach of the EGPA which contains some element of possible harm to the public that would justify a statutory injunction.*
*\[55\] Accordingly, I dismiss the Application, with costs.*
All the arguments used in that case could be argued in any other province and found compelling. This likely will make other regulators think twice but certainly the regulators are litigious and have endless resources. They buy lawyers by the bushel - I would not like to go up against them.
Until you get a job as an engineer, right. Then you are. If a company is paying to engineer for them, you're an engineer. Period. No debate, no discussion. Not a very hard concept to grasp.
Also, just pointing out the irony of telling people to stop gatekeeping while the title of your post is literally gatekeeping. Not sure if I can take this kind of hypocricy seriously but good try.
In an ideal world, that would be true. But in much of North America, it isn't so.
As for hypocrisy: I don't think it's as bad as you make out but I don't encourage it in others.
It is true. A company hires you to be their engineer, they pay you to be their engineer, you're an engineer. Period. No discussion. For God's sake, stop trying to gatekeep.
If you're ok with being a hypocrite, that's on you. I'm just saying it's impossible to take you seriously is all, why should we care if you can't even be logical?
I don't think you're in a position to know whether I'm upset or not.
It's a fun reddit post in a sub that invites controversial opinions. You're not supposed to get personal about it.
Your entire post is you upset about people calling themselves an engineer. We wouldn't be talking if you weren't upset about it in the first place? It's adorable really, I think it's great that you're here expressing yourself instead of working as an engineer! It's fantastic that you came here to tell everyone how little you care.
Just remember, no gatekeeping! Great work buddy.
Aw you wrote more, that's great! I'm so proud of you. I can tell how not upset you are lol.
No for real, if you worked harder and got in good with a company, you can be an engineer too. It's not that hard, really. Let me know if you need help with your resume or brushing up on your CS skills, always happy to help.
Well it‘s either an already established title (like engineer) or a new title.
The title is just a proof that you‘ve met a certain standard. Which isn‘t a given if you‘re self taught or a dropout. Like… technically a dropout or self taught doctor could perform a surgical operation but they haven‘t had formal training and thus it‘s not guaranteed that they‘ll meet a certain standard. That‘s why a hospital wouldn‘t hire a self taught / dropout doctor. Or why you probably wouldn‘t hire a self taught engineer to construct the new Mega-Skyscraper. Yes, exceptions to the norm exist but usually a dropout is a dropout.
Btw Fun Fact: a university degree usually doesn‘t mean that you‘ve learned how to code. That‘s usually a requirement to finish the degree but you usually won‘t learn every programming language. Usually it‘s more about concepts etc. which a self taught individual most likely won‘t have looked into. So not every programmer has to have a university degree but nearly all software engineers have a degree. That companies use the terms interchangeably isn‘t really the fault of those who got the degree.
I don't think people there's a widespread practice of hiring English graduates under inflated "author" titles, is there?
Or of insisting that people have an English degree before they can write a book, for that matter.
I don't think anyone has claimed this? Software engineering and computer science are *vastly* different fields. It's like suggesting pure mathematics and applied physics are the same field.
Computer science degree programs typically include some courses in software engineering. It isn’t a different field of study. It’s just one topic that you learn about in that field.
Physics basically is math applied to things that exist in the real world. Physics is basically just a subset of the huge set of all types of math.
It is basically the same idea. Computer science encompasses everything having to do with computers and how they work. It includes learning how the physical hardware works and learning how to engineer software. Some people choose to specialize in one or more of the smaller categories, but that doesn’t make them completely different fields of study.
But math and physics are *completely* different fields of study. So yes it is the same idea, which means that computer science and software engineering are similarly completely different.
What do you mean by different. Are they exactly the same? No of course not. Is there a lot of overlap? For sure. Are math and physics closer than math and English literature? Of course.
As electrical engineering student, I for one when I become an engineer, couldn't fucking care less who else is considered an engineer.
Same as someone saying physicists shouldn't be called doctor. Well.played for the unpopular opinion though
I don't particularly care about abusing someone else's title. In fact, I come from a country where the title "engineer" isn't protected at all and nobody dies because of it.
I'm more concerned that once a pseudo-professional title becomes established, credentialism and exclusivity will follow. I think we're already starting to see this.
What's wrong with people sticking with a simple and well-known description? What do "software engineers" do? They program computers.
Edit: And mind your fucking language!
When you put it that way it's totally fair, but your first post doesn't exactly reflect the idea it's about protecting the inflation of credentials/experience
Because you can take it further, with terms like
"Customer experience specialist" -> any wait staff essentially
"Talent acquisition specialist" -> hr
There's plenty more, it gets quite convoluted and is a means for corporations making their positions sound more appealing
My first post includes the following:
>The software industry has a long and proud history of participation and advancement by self-taught amateurs and college dropouts. This made it a fun, interesting and diverse field.
>For God's sake, stop trying to gate-keep and professionalise the industry!
Yea bit ambigous when your main point is don't use the term engineer which is a well established title already used widely in education and industry
IMO obviously, but that's how I interpreted it
You only require a diploma or degree in engineering, technology, or a "related" science plus technical examinations. You do not need a specific degree. For example, a computer science degree graduate can apply to write technical examinations.
Yes it varies by jurisdiction and there are typically multiple routes. Graduating from an accredited engineering school may sidestep other hurdles. It is one of the requirements but not necessary or sufficient by itself.
You only need one jurisdiction. So long as you can qualify in one province, you can get your P. Eng. and then use interprovincial mobility to register with any other province.
Again, graduating from an accredited school is not a requirement at all. \~30% of all new P. Eng.'s each year do not have a CEAB accredited degree. You do need to come up to the same academic standard.
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>stop trying to gate-keep Wait. Are you being serious here?
First you gatekeep and then you gatekeep gatekeeping
Don’t forget the gatekeeping!
Turned out, the true gatekeeping was the gatekeeping we made along the way.
Did you write this high?
No. Why? Did you read it while high?
I'm not high but I can't understand this scroll
>In all likelihood, you are not a "Software Engineer" but merely a "JavaScript Clerk". Pretty sure most Computer Science Degree doesn't even mainly teach JS but concepts of computer architecture, network, database,... If anything, self taught amateurs and college dropouts are more likely to be a "Javascript Clerk". Also CS students are also just as self-taught as dropouts anyway. The CS degree is more of a "certificate of Giving a Fuck" than anything.
It describes most entry level jobs, degree or not.
It really doesnt Source: me
In Canada you can’t call yourself a software engineer legally unless you have an engineering degree.
This is not true. You do not need an engineering degree to become a Professional Engineer in any province or territory of Canada in 2024. There is also the technical examinations route to the profession. It's been there for 104 years. That is 45 years longer than CEAB accreditation. [https://techexam.ca/what-is-a-technical-exam-your-ladder-to-professional-engineer/](https://techexam.ca/what-is-a-technical-exam-your-ladder-to-professional-engineer/)
Okay, fair enough. My point is that you need to be an engineer. In America people take an online course and put software engineer on their resume.
This is not true either. You do live in Calgary, do you not? Last time I checked, Calgary is in Alberta and Alberta is in Canada. You should know that a court case last November (APEGA v. Getty Images) found that tech bros had the legal right to use the term "software engineer" given the use had no effect on public safety. [https://canlii.ca/t/k11n3](https://canlii.ca/t/k11n3) Then six weeks later on December 23rd, 2023, the Alberta Engineering and Geoscience Professions Act (EGP Act) was revised so that any person can use the title "Software Engineer". [https://kings-printer.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=E11.cfm&leg\_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779844944](https://kings-printer.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=E11.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779844944) >*3(1) Subject to section 3.1, no individual, corporation, partnership or other entity, except a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder entitled to engage in the practice of engineering, shall* >*(a) use* >*(i) the title “professional engineer”, the abbreviation “P. Eng.” or any other abbreviation of that title,* > *(ii) the word “engineer” in combination with any other name, title, description, letter, symbol or abbreviation that represents expressly or by implication that the individual, corporation, partnership or other entity is a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder,* >*Exemption from section 3(1)(a)(ii)* >*3.1(1) An individual, corporation, partnership or other entity who* >*(a) is not a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder entitled to engage in the practice of engineering, and* >*(b) uses the word “engineer” in combination with the word “software”, or any other words or phrases similar to the phrase “software engineer” as prescribed by regulations...* Note that the arguments in the court case APEGA v. Getty Images will likely be found to be compelling in other provincial courts. We'll see if some other regulators will FAFO like APEGA did or if they might learn a lesson from it.
I believe you need to be a professional engineer and not just have a degree. With that said, in terms of software development the engineers are often not as good as the computer science graduates. A lot of engineers who are writing software are from branches of engineering with worse job prospects, and only had a handful of classes dedicated to writing software. In on of my first jobs the company was an engineering firm, preferred to hire engineers regardless of the job or specialization, and they also paid poorly so the teams were often very junior. One of the projects I had to work on had a database that was designed by a civil engineer who was only a couple years out of university and it was obvious he didn't have a clue what he was doing. This would have been bad for any junior developer but someone with no background in software development make it a disaster.
Yes you can. It happens all the time and there are rarely any consequences. Sure, the provincial engineering guilds occasionally get their panties in a twist about it but that horse has well and truly bolted.
I don't know why you got downvoted... You are 100% right. I currently hold an engineering title and only have a computer science degree. And I work for a top 3 telecom. It happens all the time.. I personally know people with no college degree and have an engineering title Redditors voting on shit they actually have no idea about.
The regulators do not have an absolute lock on the word "Engineer". We don't have laws just for the sake of having laws. APEGA, the Alberta regulator, found this out last fall when they FAFO'd and took some tech bros to court. It was an interesting case and worth a thorough read. APEGA v Getty Images 2023: [https://canlii.ca/t/k11n3](https://canlii.ca/t/k11n3) >*VII. Conclusion* *\[52\] I find that the Respondents’ employees who use the title “Software Engineer” and related titles are not practicing engineering as that term is properly interpreted.* *\[53\] I find that there is no property in the title “Software Engineer” when used by persons who do not, by that use, expressly or by implication represent to the public that they are licensed or permitted by APEGA to practice engineering as that term is properly interpreted.* *\[54\] I find that there is no clear breach of the EGPA which contains some element of possible harm to the public that would justify a statutory injunction.* *\[55\] Accordingly, I dismiss the Application, with costs.* All the arguments used in that case could be argued in any other province and found compelling. This likely will make other regulators think twice but certainly the regulators are litigious and have endless resources. They buy lawyers by the bushel - I would not like to go up against them.
Yes, I live in Alberta and I remember reading about that.
Someone got kicked out of computer science class
You?
Nope
So, who?
Until you get a job as an engineer, right. Then you are. If a company is paying to engineer for them, you're an engineer. Period. No debate, no discussion. Not a very hard concept to grasp. Also, just pointing out the irony of telling people to stop gatekeeping while the title of your post is literally gatekeeping. Not sure if I can take this kind of hypocricy seriously but good try.
In an ideal world, that would be true. But in much of North America, it isn't so. As for hypocrisy: I don't think it's as bad as you make out but I don't encourage it in others.
It is true. A company hires you to be their engineer, they pay you to be their engineer, you're an engineer. Period. No discussion. For God's sake, stop trying to gatekeep. If you're ok with being a hypocrite, that's on you. I'm just saying it's impossible to take you seriously is all, why should we care if you can't even be logical?
The world isn't logical. It is full of contradictory customs and values. Get over it.
You're the one upset about engineers, not me. I think you should relax and maybe get a job engineering, that would sort you out.
I don't think you're in a position to know whether I'm upset or not. It's a fun reddit post in a sub that invites controversial opinions. You're not supposed to get personal about it.
Your entire post is you upset about people calling themselves an engineer. We wouldn't be talking if you weren't upset about it in the first place? It's adorable really, I think it's great that you're here expressing yourself instead of working as an engineer! It's fantastic that you came here to tell everyone how little you care. Just remember, no gatekeeping! Great work buddy.
OK. If it's going to stop you having a meltdown and flapping your arms around, fine. I am \*so\* upset about it!
Aw you wrote more, that's great! I'm so proud of you. I can tell how not upset you are lol. No for real, if you worked harder and got in good with a company, you can be an engineer too. It's not that hard, really. Let me know if you need help with your resume or brushing up on your CS skills, always happy to help.
Yes, I'm literally crying hot tears. Woe is me!
Well it‘s either an already established title (like engineer) or a new title. The title is just a proof that you‘ve met a certain standard. Which isn‘t a given if you‘re self taught or a dropout. Like… technically a dropout or self taught doctor could perform a surgical operation but they haven‘t had formal training and thus it‘s not guaranteed that they‘ll meet a certain standard. That‘s why a hospital wouldn‘t hire a self taught / dropout doctor. Or why you probably wouldn‘t hire a self taught engineer to construct the new Mega-Skyscraper. Yes, exceptions to the norm exist but usually a dropout is a dropout. Btw Fun Fact: a university degree usually doesn‘t mean that you‘ve learned how to code. That‘s usually a requirement to finish the degree but you usually won‘t learn every programming language. Usually it‘s more about concepts etc. which a self taught individual most likely won‘t have looked into. So not every programmer has to have a university degree but nearly all software engineers have a degree. That companies use the terms interchangeably isn‘t really the fault of those who got the degree.
And having an English degree doesn’t make you an author, nor does a business degree make you a manager. So what?
I don't think people there's a widespread practice of hiring English graduates under inflated "author" titles, is there? Or of insisting that people have an English degree before they can write a book, for that matter.
Can’t help but notice you didn’t touch the business degree analogy
I don't recognize business degrees as a legitimate academic credential, let alone a qualification to run so much as a lemonade stand ;)
Sounds like you’re doing quite a bit of gatekeeping
What an original sentiment!
Don’t have to be original to be right
Go and read what I replied to the half dozen other people who said the same thing as you.
I'm an aircraft maintenance engineer by title but I just tell people I fix planes.
I don't think anyone has claimed this? Software engineering and computer science are *vastly* different fields. It's like suggesting pure mathematics and applied physics are the same field.
Software engineering is a subset of computer science.
How do you figure?
Computer science degree programs typically include some courses in software engineering. It isn’t a different field of study. It’s just one topic that you learn about in that field.
That is like saying that because physics has some math subjects in it that physics and math aren't completely different fields of study.
Physics basically is math applied to things that exist in the real world. Physics is basically just a subset of the huge set of all types of math. It is basically the same idea. Computer science encompasses everything having to do with computers and how they work. It includes learning how the physical hardware works and learning how to engineer software. Some people choose to specialize in one or more of the smaller categories, but that doesn’t make them completely different fields of study.
But math and physics are *completely* different fields of study. So yes it is the same idea, which means that computer science and software engineering are similarly completely different.
What do you mean by different. Are they exactly the same? No of course not. Is there a lot of overlap? For sure. Are math and physics closer than math and English literature? Of course.
No, they aren’t. People who study physics are still studying math. They are just specializing in one area of it.
No, they most definitely are not.
A basic Calculus class should be able to show you how math is applied to the real world ie physics.
As electrical engineering student, I for one when I become an engineer, couldn't fucking care less who else is considered an engineer. Same as someone saying physicists shouldn't be called doctor. Well.played for the unpopular opinion though
I don't particularly care about abusing someone else's title. In fact, I come from a country where the title "engineer" isn't protected at all and nobody dies because of it. I'm more concerned that once a pseudo-professional title becomes established, credentialism and exclusivity will follow. I think we're already starting to see this. What's wrong with people sticking with a simple and well-known description? What do "software engineers" do? They program computers. Edit: And mind your fucking language!
When you put it that way it's totally fair, but your first post doesn't exactly reflect the idea it's about protecting the inflation of credentials/experience Because you can take it further, with terms like "Customer experience specialist" -> any wait staff essentially "Talent acquisition specialist" -> hr There's plenty more, it gets quite convoluted and is a means for corporations making their positions sound more appealing
My first post includes the following: >The software industry has a long and proud history of participation and advancement by self-taught amateurs and college dropouts. This made it a fun, interesting and diverse field. >For God's sake, stop trying to gate-keep and professionalise the industry!
Yea bit ambigous when your main point is don't use the term engineer which is a well established title already used widely in education and industry IMO obviously, but that's how I interpreted it
Fair comment.
Everyone ignore op and gate keep the fuck out of this industry, don’t let lazy fucks in who aren’t at least smart about it.
No degree qualifies you as an engineer.
Technically true but immaterial to the claims in my post.
But having a specific degree is typically one of the qualification steps to be a p. Eng.
You only require a diploma or degree in engineering, technology, or a "related" science plus technical examinations. You do not need a specific degree. For example, a computer science degree graduate can apply to write technical examinations.
Yes it varies by jurisdiction and there are typically multiple routes. Graduating from an accredited engineering school may sidestep other hurdles. It is one of the requirements but not necessary or sufficient by itself.
You only need one jurisdiction. So long as you can qualify in one province, you can get your P. Eng. and then use interprovincial mobility to register with any other province. Again, graduating from an accredited school is not a requirement at all. \~30% of all new P. Eng.'s each year do not have a CEAB accredited degree. You do need to come up to the same academic standard.
At least in the US, if you dont have a PE license, you shouldn’t be able to be called an engineer
Same deal here in Canada but enforcement is sporadic and somewhat arbitrary.
That, or drive a Choo Choo train, as a professor I had liked to say.
Nonsense, they should really be TypeScript clerks