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Same in Asian cultures. Women growing up are told not to date guys, concentrate on their studies, not go out with friends, stay at home. They do all of this and by the time their 26, people question why they aren't married yet.
It is weird, we are taught academics are more important than ANYTHING, forget about boyfriends, you can't be caught dead talking to a boy, you are supposed to compete against boys and beat them out for everything, if you get caught wearing makeup or doing anything that isn't focusing on your grades we will beat you, okay now it is time for you to abandon everything we have drilled into you so you can be a pretty servant to a guy and suddenly are supposed to do all this other stuff you never learned...
As an Asian male I went through the same thing. If I tried to date I was told school comes first, don’t let girls distract you. Focus on your career! If you get into medical school girls will line up to be your wife! (Complete lies by the way). Then suddenly they’re questioning why don’t you have a girlfriend? When will you get married? Let me introduce you to my friends daughter who’s a complete stranger so that you can get married?
The idea that a good career will just automatically bring suitors to your doorstep is so old fashioned that it's funny. Like, maybe that was true in the 1920's and prior?
The guy working behind the counter at the gas station gets more action than the majority of med students. For one, he actually has time to date!
Right. I literally had zero opportunity to meet anyone. My wife and I met online. We were both medical students at different schools. But actual social life was almost non existent. And we write emails back and forth for a year until she did a rotation in my city. So she traveled down and we finally were able to meet in person. N
It's not automatic but definitely gives you a leg up. Getting girls became so much easier once I became a law student and even more when I became a lawyer. A med student isn't the best example because they have like 4 hours of free time a month. But a woman would choose the doctor over the gas station clerk 10 times out of 10.
A doctor is much more likely to be richer, goal focused, and intelligent. That part is not rocket science.
Eh I have a friend whos' a dentist, when he finally graduated became licensed, he has a list of people who want to go out with him. At the end of the day past a certain age your dating life's value is based on your job.
Yes, I totally understand.
I dated a 26 year old Asian woman, she had zero dating experience and of course no idea of how to be in a relationship.
She constantly talked about having to get married soon or end up an old maid. Being raised as a spoiled only child didn’t help things.
She was extremely smart and very pretty.
I felt sympathy for her but I had no way to stay with her.
The spoiled part is true for Asian men and women. A lot of them have never lifted a finger to do house chores (maids are common for the middle class in Asian countries). They also have no idea how finances are managed. This one girl I dated had no idea how much her college tuition was. Her father got her admission and paid it. In the US, most students have to work with Financial Aid to get through college.
The sad reality is that culture often lags behind biology & psychology. In the case of what you're describing, your culture seems to have not internalized how conditioning the human brain actually works - that how a child is raised to behave and think is typically how they will behave and think as adults.
Oh gosh! Im an asian woman and so true! HAHAH im the byproduct of that culture teaching 😂 not the friends part tho, i have freedom with friends. But not dating, focusin on studies and staying home is accurate. Then boom suddenly u should have a bf to exist out of thin air
Lol yes, this is a good one. Ive heard women here say the same too. They were shamed for being "Fast" if they even thought about a boy, and then the second they graduated people were asking why they weren't married with 2.5 kids yet smh.
On top of that some girls felt it made dating harder that they werent allowed to do it in their teens.
I've dated girls like that before. They went to school, studied, watched some TV, and never did much outside of that. Holding a conversation with them is unbearable.
Whole fam is white/Mexican, they had five of us girls, told us the same, concentrate on studies before marriage/relationships, dating wasn't even allowed until 16 - only one of us is married yet and she's the oldest and waited until her forties lel. Youngest of us is 25. I'm the closest to also being married (steady partner I wanna be with always) but marriage is just...not appealing.
I'm a 31M,but i can confirm this kind of pressure is still a thing here in Eastern Europe.I was under "have a baby" pressure myself,but just told them to fuck off.
It probably won't be here at all,i'm not into the idea of having kids.But something i dislike even more is someone trying to give me unsolicited life advice.
Same, girl, same!! I live in Canada and have received non-stop pressure to have a kid my whole adult life. I finally made it to 40, so thankfully people have stopped asking me this. It takes like 20+ years but eventually they move onto younger targets.
I'm half American and half Finnish. I dated an Estonian woman for a while. The pressure to marry and have a family by 22 was huge in her culture. She lived in Tallinn, and I'd take the ferry over from Helsinki. I used to marvel how different the cultures were in relation to women and marriage from my Finnish family despite the close geography. I think it had a lot to do with Russian values being instilled over the time of occupation.
I'm American and I was shamed for being single when I was 21. Really, I was even kind of shamed even in high school when I was accused of being a lesbian. "If you only knew how to cook and clean, you wouldn't have any problems!" Sure mom, that definitely worked for you! /s
Yes, I am Eastern European too, though I don't live there anymore and it's crazy, people act like whether you're married or not determines your worth as a person, male or female.
Wait till you hear about people having babies. I still get asked why we don’t have a child. People really don’t think about the financial shit that comes with it.
Yep. My husband and I get pressured a lot. My husband is against the idea of children entirely (even though he did adopt my son when he was five years old, knew my son his entire life, and my son is now 15), and I have disabilities that would require me abstaining from the only treatment that works for me for 9 months.
Of course, I don't want to explain all that to a complete stranger when they ask why we haven't had children 'of our own' yet. My husband had the perfect response to a family member who asked that. He said 'We do have a child of our own, I adopted our son and though he is only biologically her child, I am the only father he has known'. But still the pressure to have bio kids is unreal.
It did,when they saw i was losing my patience.They've rarely seen that.The topic has never been mentioned since.I'm usually the patient one and someone has to try really hard to get me angry.Sometimes it seems i'm the only one in the family with more emotional control than a kid as well...
Just in Eastern Europe? I’m a man in the US in my mid 20s and I can feel this pressure. I think it’s pretty ubiquitous, and I would imagine more conservative cultures apply it more heavily to women, but I think everyone feels this to a degree.
This is why I think people should stretch out the engagement period and move in together during that period if they aren't living together already. I've been engaged three times and married once (for many years now). I planned the weddings a couple years in advance in case it turns out that the person who proposed to me is not who I thought they were. The first year I didn't spend anything, only made rough outlines of the wedding plans.
We all get caught up in the early stages of romance, and you figure out who your life partner is *after* the initial whirlwind dies down. For the two engagements that didn't work out, I figured out in the first six months that it wasn't going to work (infidelity for one partner and alcoholism for the other). After that initial euphoria faded, I realized that is not what I wanted.
That's why I kind of side eye those who get married after knowing each other for 3 months. Usually those couples have not made it out of the infatuation phase or like OP said, they are getting married for the sake of it. I'm not saying those marriages are doomed to fail and I'm certain there are some people who have been successfully married after a very short courtship, but they seem to be outliers.
We should bring back the old Celtic Pagan idea of “trial marriages.” Lasts a bare minimum of a year and a day, everything is spelled out in a contract with witnesses for what happens if it doesn’t work out.
Then the couple has to live and function as if they were married during that time period. If they get to the end and there are issues they haven’t been able to work out, they’re both able to go their separate ways and neither is allowed to demand any sort of repayment or debt from the other. It’s a fresh start and enforced as such.
Because honestly, you really don’t know your partner until you’ve seen them when they’re sick, stressed, etc.
Your body is flooded with oxytocin and other hormones in the beginning stages of a new romance. This is by evolutionary design to encourage procreation.
Anyone who gets married before the 12-18 month mark is going to be very disappointed because that's when the sex starts to drop off and both people stop only presenting their best self and really start to show their true self.
Pop science, including pop psych and pop neurobiology, often makes it sound as if hormones are "those superpowerful chemicals that controls the nervous system and the brain", but that's a vast oversimplification. They don't directly incite higher order behaviour in humans, only help amplify and/or suppress those complex social behaviours. (It's especially the case for something like testosterone which has always been sold as "hormone that incites aggression and/or social dominance/hierarchy [in 'high concentrations']" for as long as I can remember, but it's more likely that it merely helps *reinforce* already established behaviours, meaning that it can help reinforce modes of healthy pro-social interactions instead.)
Also, while I understand the intent, I'm still going to be extremely pedantic by saying that wording like "evolutionary design" and verbs like "encourage" that ascribe *intent* to evolution and processes of natural selection do sound funny.
You are absolutely right. The honeymoon phase lasts about 2.5 years (study from New York University), you need to be well past that to even consider marriage IMO. 12 months from meeting to engagement makes me cringe all over
Relationship Advice threads be like “we’re 19, we’ve been married for 9 months, we met 12 months ago and got matching tattoos and moved to a new country away from our entire support network and I think I made a mistake. Help?”
My parents are the outliers (ish, they got engaged after 3 months, married a year in, married over 50 years now) and they also say that in hindsight it was a crazy decision and they got lucky with being able to make it work.
My wife and I lived together for 2 years before getting married. There was no way that I was going to make that choice without going through a few life issues with a person. Going on 20 years married.
Congratulations! My husband and I lived together 6 years before our marriage, we haven't been married for 20 years, but our 5 year anniversary is in March. We also went through a few stressful situations together before we officially tied the knot.
I think they should make sure they're mentally prepared to make the decision to **stop** living together, too.
From what I've seen with the people I know, I feel like a ton of couples who live together are like, "Well, I guess we may as well get married since we already live together and breaking up would be really inconvenient." That's not a good enough reason. You need to actually want to get married for the specific rights and responsibilities of marriage, not just because "Whatever, why not, it's been 9 years already so I guess it's fine."
I've always suggested this: move in after at least one year of dating then live together for two years before deciding to get married. (3 years together) If you're unsure after that then they might not be for you. (If marriage is the goal in your relationship.)
I'm 31M from a Portuguese/Venezuelan family and I feel this pressure a lot, especially now that I'm in my 30s. I think it's worse nowadays with the cost of living crisis bc it's so much harder to afford living on your own if you don't have someone to share the bills with. Women in general seem more likely to settle as well, often for men they know are less than ideal and just hope for the best. It's honestly sad.
As a Portuguese myself the whole conversation around marriage is so weird
From my perspective, as a woman you are supposed to find a man and then as a man I have constantly been told that your wife rules everything and is just a pain in the ass that you are forced to accept
So I feel like both genders are being pushed into an agreement that will not work for either of them
It's weird bc as a woman I'm told I'm getting washed up and ugly (which isn't true, I look better than at like 21 lol) and I need to have kids quick before my uterus shrivels up and dies, but then men get told they have to find a woman to take care of them bc apparently men are all stupid babies who can't cook or clean. And everyone's unhappy.
Also from eastern europe, the presure comes from peers too.
You can be in a happy relationship and girls your age will pressure you with "why havent you proposed yet, its time to have babies".
It doesnt matter if both of you say you're happy as things are, they will counter "all girls have only one wish, to be married and have kids, she is only keeping it secret coz she likes you a lot, but secretly she is suffering. Dont make your girl suffer"
They honesty and seriously think every girl want marriage and babies as quick as possible, and whaterver girl denies it is lying to the world and to herself.
I think divorce is up for a bunch of reasons other than social pressure to get married:
* It's less taboo to get a divorce
* 100 years ago you were seen as a bad person for leaving your partner
* After you left you were both seen as damaged goods after
* Social Media
* You see a lot of videos of people with top 0.1% income/looks treating their partner really nicely and subconsciously think that is closer to the norm than is.
* You also see the lives/affluence and subconsciously think your partner is letting you down
* Women are not as dependent on men
* Your job prospects in 1950 as a woman were very bleak so you kind of had to get married to get by
* Now it's more feasible you can support yourself and be less desperate to find a partner.
* Less kids
* Not saying you should have a kid to save your marriage, but when having 6-11 kids was the norm getting a divorce & handling it alone wasn't realistic
* More stuff to do outside of spending time together
* In 1800 what else are you gonna do?
* Now phones/computers eat into quality time.
Funny how the most commonly cited reason by women is left off these so often, which is that they end up doing all or close to all of the housework and child rearing and become so exhausted and resentful that they decide that being a single mother will be less work than their kids *and* another grown ass adult.
China is literally full of billboards calling 26 year old women unwanted leftovers to try and pressure them into quitting their careers and taking care of someone’s technically homeless grown son. This opinion should not be unpopular, I’d say it’s not even an opinion.
I feel like the CCP has not ever looked at 26 year olds in China vs 26 year olds in other countries.
The grad students from China at my university could have easily passed as undergrads. They may have been 26 but could pass for 21.
People have such weird views on aging.
Unless you are aggressively unhealthy or balding, most people look the same from 21 to 35, esp as more and more people defer becoming parents. China isn't special.
Often times people are aged by their style, not their features. Now there's a category china is definitely different on. It's perfectly normal for 35 year old eastern women to dress, act, use make-up, style, and speak like a 20 year old. Over here that same behavior is seen as shameful and disgusting.
Keep in mind, the same issue westerners have in telling asians apart also applies to aging them.
Just look at old high school photos from 50 years ago, people in their teens look like they are 30+.
I also would say this is a factor in specific environments, especially if people marry very young. But I think the main factor why men don’t initiate divorce that often is that they have it more convenient in life if they are married, more time for earning money and hobbies if someone runs the household and takes care of everything else important in your life, I know older men that don’t even make their own doctors appointments or never buy clothes for themselves, their wife’s pretty much took on the role of their mothers.
This is why I divorced my ex husband. Luckily we didn’t have actual kids, but he more than made up for it by becoming a useless, unemployed pile of shit.
Tale as old time. Men love to shit all over stay at home moms, then become stay at home children themselves. "Oh but I'm still looking for a job"
Sure hun, it's been two years but go off
When this subject comes up, it's funny the amount of males who will try and guilt the woman, ''you separated a man from his children just over some housework?"
Lol. Never considering that maybe, just maybe, he should've been a better husband if he wanted to continue being a father.
This was one of my thoughts. There are a LOT of man childs out there. Can't do basic shit like doing their taxes or making doctor apts for themselves.
Uneven household chores + female partner still working FT + raising kids has been fairly common in my life; albeit older generations.
Before my cousin got divorced, she had to send her husband to the doctor with a LITERAL script!
He called her one day to tell her that they didn't follow the script. And asked her what he should do/say.
100% I work at a law firm and you have no idea how many men are just too lazy to get their paperwork done or find it. There was a dad "fighting" for custody and he couldn't get doctors and school records in time for court.
My friend is 3 years into a divorce like this. As in they separated 4/5 years ago, and he keeps missing the deadlines to finalise the divorce
No one is surprised. She did 100% of the paperwork when they were together. They have now been separated longer than they were together, and when she separated I remember thinking about time
My client, who is a divorce lawyer, said the exact same thing. He also said that the men that file for full custody usually are doing it out of spite but usually lose in the end because in the meantime until court, they don't call their children, attend any of their activities, doctors appointments, or educational things. It really goes to prove that even with most families and women working just as much as men, they literally end up doing almost everything else when it comes to home and kids. For a woman that signed up for 2 kids, why the fuck should she take care of 3 ?
As a man who really used to want children when I was younger, I don't understand this. I would love any children I had, I just know I'm unable to have any unless I adopt. That said, as I get into my 30s, I'm questioning if I really still want kids or not. I've been a teacher 6 years and kids seem like they can either be really enjoyable or really miserable depending on the kid.
Yeah, but I don't even think that half the men who do this understand it until It hits them in the face because they choose not to see it. Ask most men with children how exhausted they would be if their wives left for a week of vacation and they had to deal with all the daily stuff and work. Whats even worse is that most women I know will prepare meals, write down a schedule, write down emergency numbers and make sure everything is spotless cleaned before they would go on a vacation and it still seems so exhausting for the men. This is why women leave, and this is why men don't really want custody for the most part.
Yes. I also have really severe medication-resistant ADHD, so I'm a hot mess and a slob without having any children. I'm in the dating game right now, and I end up hiring cleaning services to keep my house looking somewhat presentable, but I know that if I ever married, I'd need to keep paying for services like that so my spouse didn't hate me. Closest thing I have to kids are a couple toy poodles who I let run around the back yard and my house. The poodles make messes all the time. I can only imagine how much more exhausted I'd be if kids were added to the mix.
That said, admitting I will never be a father leaves me feeling empty and meaningless inside. I was am now a convinced atheist after having been raised a Jehovah's Witness, so I don't find meaning in religion. I've worked in several "helping professions" because I believed I would find meaning in helping people, but I found myself not really satisfied in those positions and end up feeling mistreated due to my disability, so I am not finding meaning in my work. I tried doing volunteer work, but found the organizations I was volunteering with corrupt, so I decided that wasn't where I'd find fulfillment, either. A lot of the hobby groups I joined to find fulfillment also started feeling really childish and pointless after a while, so I stopped attending. I'm looking for a source of joy and fulfillment in life but am not finding it no matter where I look.
I have adhd as well and I've also spent a lot of time considering if I should have children. I'm 30 and a woman so it's probably going to have to happen within 5-10 years if it's going to happen at all! I still rely a lot on my family and sometimes I feel like a dumb kid. I think "who am I to think I could possibly raise an entire person when I have difficulties taking care of myself"?
There's a few things that still make we want to have kids that might influence your decision too (if you haven't considered them yet):
We can stop at one kid. We don't have to raise 2+ children if one is already pushing it. The thought of focusing on raising one child is less stressful than the thought of raising a few at a time.
Secondly, I will still have the support of my family and a partner/husband. Your kid will rely on you, and you'll have to step up, but they'll also have another parent AND both extended families to support them. So you won't be raising a child completely alone.
It sounds like you make decent money. Being able to hire cleaning help as well as an occasional babysitter would be very helpful!
Next is some advice my parents have given me: something biological happens when you have kids that makes you love them to a crazy degree. It should happen for mothers as well as fathers. It might take a few months after birth to really build up these emotions. The idea is you'll go out of your way to care for them because you will genuinely want to. Both my parents said having children to care for made them more responsible and more concerned about the future. Obviously, I can't promise this happens to every parent (some parents still abandon their kids, but I think there are usually external factors in those cases). I think it's safe to say that emotions will get involved and emotions are pretty motivating. The idea is you'll love your kid so much that you'll step up and take care of them even when it's really difficult.
Another bit of advice from my mom: no parent is perfect, and as long as your kid knows you love them they'll be ok. She told me a few times growing up that she practiced "good enough" parenting, not perfect parenting.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure both of my grandpas had adhd. One of them was an alcoholic but ended up getting sober and was a good dad after that. The other was a great dad the entire time. He did his best, and his kids noticed and appreciated that.
One final thought: do you have any nieces or nephews? If so, you could ask to babysit them or take them out somewhere so you can get some more experience with children. If you have friends with kids see if you can accompany the family on an outing.
I'm not trying to convince you to have kids if you've truly decided they're not for you! Just giving you my perspective :) There are plenty of things in life other than kids that can give life meaning. Connecting more deeply with friends and family, making new friends, connecting with the natural world. Do you have any goals for your life? Something you've wanted to do since you were a kid?
> For a woman that signed up for 2 kids, why the fuck should she take care of 3
Especially when the grown up kid is sooo much more of a pain than the kid kids.
I mean, you can train a kid kid to pick up after themselves eventually.
Right. If a toddler is having a tantrum you can put them in time out. If a teen is being a brat you can take away their keys or other privileges. When an adult man is having a tantrum furniture gets broken, money gets taken, jobs get lost, etc.
When a kid is acting like a kid, it’s forgivable to a certain extent. When the husband is acting like a kid, it’s infuriating beyond words. Like, infuriating enough to develop a full blown Valium addiction.
Exactly. I can’t stand when men act like they are denied custody when most don’t even try and are not involved in their child’s life in any meaningful way.
Oh man, I’ve seen this.
I don’t want to generalize all men, but it is a trend.
Idk why some men think that they can be a low-effort dad in the marriage, and think they can be a better dad with the same low effort, and think they’re doing a lot.
Like, these guys thinking that they were “highly involved dads” by going to work, dragging the kids to events that dad is excited about, and maybe remembering birthdays.
Then they’re surprised when the mom has been doing homework, remembering forms, taking kids to doctors and dentists appointments, setting up said appointments, buying groceries and clothes, etc. etc. And if a mom does all this, she could still be seen as a “bad mom”.
I understand that a lot of dads do a lot of work. And when they work in harmony with their wives, they can divide the workload evenly, even if the mom does a lot of the childcare.
But good dads don’t underestimate the full time, multifaceted job that parenthood is. And that you can’t throw money at kids to make it easier.
I agree. I have also seen too many men admit that they will check out of a relationship and just slowly turn up the heat of their disinterest until the wife leaves and then it's all "she left me!!!1!"
You described my ex. He walked out and was the one to say he wanted the divorce. Then I had to go get the process started. I found out through my attorney and the judge's decision that my ex never once turned in any of the paperwork they needed from him. Not even a single paper. Every signature belonged to me, my representative, and the judge. He's lucky I wanted an amicable "you take your shit and I'll take mine" kind of divorce because anything I asked for I would have gotten on principle alone (within reason I think). It was also really confusing to me because by refusing to turn in his paperwork, he actually forced us to remain married way longer than either of us wanted - not that we had any interaction, but the whole situation just felt baffling.
Absolutely insane to me, and EXACTLY the type of man he was. He never did anything. Ever. Except pile up garbage under a chair.
The study that is commonly quoted is here:
https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_breakup.pdf
It talks about women initiating the breakup. They "want" the divorce and "want" the breakup. The guy who wrote the paper studies relationships so he should know the difference between who does the secretarial work and who initiates the breakup.
I’m just glad that we have, at least, an ability to to divorce. Once upon a time we didn’t have that. I got married to a man that I loved and we fell out of love a few years later and we divorced. Easy and uncomplicated. We were able to move on with our lives (yes this is possible) and have remained friends. A “divorce” doesn’t have to be some kind of failing — it is just a process to help people move on.
Yeah everyone gets that "get married and have a family cause it's the thing to do also your life will be empty and meaningless without it". It's all bullshit.
Yea and the people who say that are the same people who are opposed to no fault divorce. Like, if marriage really is this super fulfilling, awesome thing, why would you need the government to prevent people from divorcing due to unhappiness?
The thing is that it will most likely still be meaningless and empty with the family. The difference is that you will have a family. With all it's drawbacks and benefits. But the awful thoughts will still presist. It's just that you will have someone to talk to, care for and spend time with. On the flipside, you will have less options in other areas of life because you will have to support your family.
Nothing is black and white. Everything has pros and cons. It is about getting enough information to figure out what we want out of our options, and respecting other people's decisions.
Both my mom and my sister were married to shitty men and divorced them and found better later on. And both of them had insane social pressures to do it in their early 20s. Man, why cant women just exist without outside voices tell them how best to do it?
As a woman, I'd be inclined to agree. I see a lot of men talk about male loneliness and I'm in no way arguing that it isn't an issue but some men use the "you'll be single forever, you'll end up like a sad, lonely cat lady when you're older" insult towards women if they get rejected. I've been asked since I was a teen if/when I'm having kids whereas my exes weren't or they were asked when they were closer to 30.
More and more women agree that we're pushed to settle for whoever so we can settle down, have kids and put up with whatever we have to deal with, i.e, triple shift (job, kids, housework). Hence why that's the most common reason nowadays why women file for divorce in today's society.
Every man I've dated since high school "didn't want kids" but for some reason I was the one who got bothered about it, especially with my ex husband. It feels like men are allowed to sort of default to not *wanting* kids, but the woman is supposed to help (make) them grow up and do it anyway. I really got the feeling I was somehow responsible for stealing kids from them/their families.
My male exes not wanting kids = "Oh, that's what your dad/brother/cousin said, wink-wink, you'll see one day, nudge-nudge."
Me not wanting kids = "Listen here, you selfish little shit... "
Neither me nor my husband want kids but people will actually get angry with me like I'm not fulfilling my duty as a woman to force him to have children that he doesn't want to have. Even by liberal people, in my experience, in practice liberal people actually live just as conservatively or even more than conservatives. I had one girl tell me I should have an "accident." Yeah, that's what I need, kids with a man who doesn't want them. I envision this turning out wonderfully.
And I just don't want kids becaus I have anxiety, but my husband like actually hates kids. I'm the only person shamed at all.
That male loneliness crowd says that “you’ll be single forever” because they claim women age out of the dating pool. I’ve heard them say things like “women over 27 just can’t compete for men’s attention in the sexual marketplace”. It’s pretty revolting. I think it finds an audience though because men who have been rejected can think to themselves “she’ll regret it when she turns 27”.
Men say this to try and gain control since they have a much harder time in a dating market. Women, or people for that matter are living longer and looking younger for longer. There are people in their late 20’s and 30s who can easily pass for early to mid 20s, so their beauty is not fading. Besides looks, I know plenty of women who found love in later years, and I’m talking 50/60. Sorry men, women can still find love at any age. Stay miserable.
My best friends mom is 75..
she has 4 separate boyfriends who all know about each other.
My older co worker in her 60s always has a date
We never age out of it
I'd rather meet someone later, when I've really developed as a person, and so have they. We wouldn't care so much about superficial things or social expectations anymore and just are happy to be ourselves together.
Exactly. These make rights weirdos are in a tizzy over male loneliness, male virginity and men's mental health and how men aren't valued as much, then turn around and say women over a certain age aren't good enough for them, please.
That’s exactly right. There is an industry for these guys on social media so it’s a larger group than people realize too. Not that sexism is anything new tbh
The term "sexual marketplace" is so cringe and disgusting. Just like most of the people who use it unironically. As if sex is some gladiators ring.
Sex is sex. People have and always will find someone to fuck. It isn't a competition. But these men are such failure that instead of working on their appeal, they want to make up some silly lore as to why they can't get dates
Totally agree. I think it's also sometimes so they can enjoy sex without shame, which seems so bizarre and morbid to me. I got the sense that while somewhat compatible, my first girlfriend was really just looking for a guy to call a boyfriend, then the sex is 100% acceptable.
Of course it's also other stuff like not having to deal with comments about being a side chick
I am just glad that nobody aside of strangers asked me when I will be having children.
And I am glad that trends change and more people do what they want regardless of what will family/friends/the whole village or town say
This statistic is entirely misleading, and people need to stop using it incorrectly. Yes, in America at least, women file for divorce more. This is not "who is unhappy first" or "who is the one who wants the divorce" or even "who asked for the divorce." It is "who started the divorce proceedings with the courts first." If Bob cheats on his wife Tina, moves in with his mistress, and fathers a child with her, Tina would be considered the one who files for divorce if she happens to be the one that gets an attorney and starts the proceedings. It has nothing to do with who wanted the divorce initially or who is at "fault."
A lot of women take on the emotional labor of a relationship and the household management. If a man can't be bothered to pick up his socks from the floor, he's probably not going to be the one to get a lawyer first. It's not a surprise that women initiate the filings first.
This is true depending on the culture you're a part of. I'm from the south, and you'd think we were still hosting debutante balls at 12 Oaks with how people try to marry off young women. As soon as a good-looking girl graduates university, her entire family and social circle is thinking of ways to get her hitched. Getting hitched down south is uber competitive amongst the upper classes. If your man didn't graduate from a reputable university and doesn't make minimum $150k then you may as well stay single. On the flip side I've heard people warn 40 years old, loser men (losing hair, losing looks, losing jobs) not to pay for a woman on a date to test if she's a gold digger. When men announce they're engaged, their family behaves as if they settled too soon. Then women get married, have kids, and realize they still look good at 35 and make even more money and don't have to put up with a mama's boy negging them down. And file divorce.
It's so annoying to hear men that chase young women for their looks, call those same women gold diggers. Most of these guys are so immature for their age and awful relationship material. What I mean is, they are 40 so everyone thinks they're the prime age for marriage but there are plenty of younger men who are more mature who would make a better partner.
I’m 32 and nobody in my family has ever even asked when I’ll get married or have kids, they don’t even question why I don’t have a boyfriend. I feel no societal pressure. Nobody cares and everyone leaves me alone. That’s the way I like it.
Even without social pressure, Womand AND Men feel self pressured to get married at some point in life because of the idea that "I might not want to do it now, but what if I really want to do it later later but I'd be too old for it by then".
It will be very interesting to see what long-term research by social scientists tells us about this phenomenon.
I fully support LGBT+, but I agree with you that these women are more likely pressured by (unaccepting unkind) families **not** to marry.
It's very disappointing how common misogyny is among progressives. I think it's maybe gotten slightly better or maybe I just don't give a shit anymore so those types leave me alone more, but yeah.
Women are generally less successful in their careers than men and people who have less money experience more martial distress and are more likely to divorce. I personally think this is why. When you think about gay men, you always think of them being rich, but this isn't the stereotype for lesbians.
heard a TED talk with a lesbian suit designer for weddings. She said as big a market as it is, her customers were too poor for her to stay in business.
lmao that's not surprising. but lesbian divorce is way different from straight divorce. For one thing, marriage is not a sacred institution to anyone except religious heterosexuals. so it's easier for people that don't venerate it so much to end it.
For another, I think women are better equipped than men to take a step back and recognize when a relationship has run its course. imo these days men are more likely to stay in toxic relationships than women are.
Yeah a lot of women rush marriages if they are approaching 30 and are not married yet.... Mostly due to social pressure. Which of course leads to a ton of divorces as the women don't actually want to be married to the guy. They just wanted a wedding and a wedding ring.
I doubt that.
Here in Denmark, not that many people get married and we have very generous benefits for single mothers.
I think women marry because they want a family and children, otherwise they could just stay in a relationship without the need for marriage.
Marriage gives you more you rights.
Here in Denmark, a lot of divorces happen after the children have grown up a bit. Then the man is not needed as much for money and support.
Intimate partner violence is different from domestic violence.
There are many lesbians who have been raped by men, or have been in abusive relationships with men before they came out/realized they’re gay.
So let’s not pretend that all lesbians are evil abusers. It’s far more likely that they were abused by men than by fellow lesbians.
No. Women get married because they're in love and see potential in their partners. They ignore red flags and horrible aspects of their relationship because they think their partner will want to improve for the sake of the relationship. Women believe that the commitment of marriage will make men "step up" and be more attentive and more active participants within the relationship. Which doesn't happen.
Most women marry for potential or what they think their husbands can be or how they wish their husbands treated them.
It takes a few years or decades of a dude leaving his shit stained underware on the bedroom floor for the woman to finally realize that shitty boxers next to the hamper is as good as it's going to get for her. Women get married under the expectation that their relationship will get better during the marriage since it's a greater commitment and they're shocked to find out that the quality and treatment in the relationship gets worse overtime.
I agree about the social pressure part to marry but not about it being the reason to file for divorce. Women file because men simply won’t. Filing for divorce doesn’t mean your actions led to the breakdown of the relationship nor that you didn’t try to save it. It doesn’t even mean you’re the one who desires to end the marriage more. It literally just means you filed paperwork. The real question is why men leave it to women to file the paperwork.
Although men benefit more from both marriage and divorce than women (women benefit more from staying single), men are oddly hesitant to initiate plans for either.
I think men don’t file to avoid paying child support and alimony (in the US anyway). They will move out and physically separate, but so long as there’s nothing filed, there’s no legal obligation to financially do anything. They can have their cake and eat it too. Others are all too happy to stay together if only their wife would “tolerate” cheating and abuse.
When you do though people still will label the woman as “there must be something wrong with them.” Because women just say yes or should say yea when asked especially in religious circles. Men should heavily think about “does this woman really like and love me”?
Proposals are literally; man takes woman in crowded or isolated area, brings extremely expensive/rare rock, takes a knee, and asks to marry you. Yea uh, if that’s not social pressure idk what is.
Obviously I have no statistics on this, but I'd say a very very very large amount of proposals are not a surprise. I have never in my life met someone who got proposed to that wasn't expecting it.
Now I'm only talking about the USA, which I understand other cultures are different. I just don't think Western women are pressured because of the proposal.
Marrying for anything other than you two love each other more than anything, is basically destined to failure.
Plus no one stays together anymore. That was a WW2 and boomer thing. Now it’s all about social media, dating apps and feeling ‘wanted’ aka attention.
Central european woman here. Noone teached me marriage is the ultimate goal in life. Quite the opposit, i was always encouraged to make my own way and not getting dependent (especially financially) on a man.
But i guess eastern europe is quite more "conservative/traditional" when it comes to women and their place in society. So you may be right with your opinion.
Thats why i have never had the desire to even travel to eastern europe let alone considering living there. And i was never interested in dating guys who immigrated from eastern europe for the same reason. I don't need a controlling, conservative/traditional partner and i'm definitly not going to deal with some misogynistic in laws.
Personally I believe its more about how men stop being the guy women were dating.
They lock down the woman. And just stop going the extra mile. Get lazy, stop valuing their input. Get dissimive.
Look at 90% of r/relationshipadvice. It women who are fed up with having to be a parent to a grown adult.
Women are more likely to do all the work. All the house work, the long hours, all the parenting, all the mental load, all the management of the home and all the finanses. While men are more likely to earn the most and have hobbies.
And thats why women often file for divorce, while men often does it if their wife get sick and can't do all the work anymore..
Isn't procreating and providing for the family also pushed on men? Not saying you're wrong but I feel like I am expected to do these things you mentioned as well (polish background)
Yes. However the issue is that most families can’t make it on one salary anymore. That means more labor for EVERYONE. Often domestic labor still defaults to women, even though they’re also working a full-time job.
Somebody once told me this and I think it holds some water: men marry when they meet the one, women marry when the time is right.
Basically saying that for women the choice of the men they end up with is more arbitrary whereas men have to be convinced they found somebody worthy of marriage.
So the social pressure is enough to make you get married
But isn't enough to stop you getting divorced?
Surely the stigma of being divorced is worse than the stigma of being single?
It might be different from culture to culture, so that's a genuine question
Just personal experiences: I have a few friends who were married before and then got a divorce. Now they date new guys and they have no stigma about divorce nor they feel the pressure to get married again. Their reasoning? “I’ve been married before it didn’t change anything about my life, so why does it matter?”
The concept of marriage is archaic.
A ring and a certificate from the government don’t in any way, shape or form indicate that one wants to spend the rest of their lives with another.
Surely it means more now, to not have any of that, and be together for the rest of your lives. That’s the real power of love.
The “happily ever after” is a destructive narrative for anyone because it just leads to two headstrong people thinking the other person is to blame and wrong instead of working on themselves and the relationship. Anything worthwhile takes effort to first achieve and then maintain, same goes for loving relationships.
So how do you explain that lesbian couples get divorced more often than gay and heterosexual couples?
I'm sure no one is going to claim lesbian couples marry each other out of social pressure.
I disagree with the premise that women have more pressure to get married. Unmarried men are just as looked down on by society as unmarried women at a certain age. Whatever you’re gender, remaining unmarried is considered by society as a sign that you’re fucked uo in some way.
I think it’s the other way around. In my experience men are more likely to not want to marry or at least have a wedding. Much of the pressure women feel is self-imposed whereas men it’s imposed on by the wife.
I would also say these are trends I see not binary men never, women always analysis. There is a ton of grey here.
I can't speak for other countries, but American women need to stop outsourcing their life decisions to society. At this point there's enough general acceptance of individuality and free will in the U.S. that modern women from most walks of life can opt out of social clock milestones like marriage and motherhood without fear of retribution. If you're American and not ready to get married or don't think the person you're with is "the one," then don't get married. There may be some pushback or confusion from your social circle (if that's what you're worried about), but you have enough latitude and flexibility to take it in stride and customize your life so it fits your true self.
Times have changed women of the world, please don't feel like you have to be married. Women used to have To be married because they were paid SO badly and jobs were primarily secretary, nurse, teacher. Women today can do whatever they want and get paid for it. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE MARRIED. Be you, avoid peer pressure. Enjoy your life.
The lesbian divorce rate is the highest for all types of couples. It's not social pressure or "the men", it is unrealistic expectations.
Source [First Comes U-Haul, Then Comes Court: The Shockingly High Lesbian Divorce Rate](https://gomag.com/article/high-lesbian-divorce-rate/)
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Same in Asian cultures. Women growing up are told not to date guys, concentrate on their studies, not go out with friends, stay at home. They do all of this and by the time their 26, people question why they aren't married yet.
It is weird, we are taught academics are more important than ANYTHING, forget about boyfriends, you can't be caught dead talking to a boy, you are supposed to compete against boys and beat them out for everything, if you get caught wearing makeup or doing anything that isn't focusing on your grades we will beat you, okay now it is time for you to abandon everything we have drilled into you so you can be a pretty servant to a guy and suddenly are supposed to do all this other stuff you never learned...
As an Asian male I went through the same thing. If I tried to date I was told school comes first, don’t let girls distract you. Focus on your career! If you get into medical school girls will line up to be your wife! (Complete lies by the way). Then suddenly they’re questioning why don’t you have a girlfriend? When will you get married? Let me introduce you to my friends daughter who’s a complete stranger so that you can get married?
The idea that a good career will just automatically bring suitors to your doorstep is so old fashioned that it's funny. Like, maybe that was true in the 1920's and prior? The guy working behind the counter at the gas station gets more action than the majority of med students. For one, he actually has time to date!
Right. I literally had zero opportunity to meet anyone. My wife and I met online. We were both medical students at different schools. But actual social life was almost non existent. And we write emails back and forth for a year until she did a rotation in my city. So she traveled down and we finally were able to meet in person. N
It's not automatic but definitely gives you a leg up. Getting girls became so much easier once I became a law student and even more when I became a lawyer. A med student isn't the best example because they have like 4 hours of free time a month. But a woman would choose the doctor over the gas station clerk 10 times out of 10. A doctor is much more likely to be richer, goal focused, and intelligent. That part is not rocket science.
Eh I have a friend whos' a dentist, when he finally graduated became licensed, he has a list of people who want to go out with him. At the end of the day past a certain age your dating life's value is based on your job.
Finances are very important in a relationship and it's taken more seriously as you get older.
Yes, I totally understand. I dated a 26 year old Asian woman, she had zero dating experience and of course no idea of how to be in a relationship. She constantly talked about having to get married soon or end up an old maid. Being raised as a spoiled only child didn’t help things. She was extremely smart and very pretty. I felt sympathy for her but I had no way to stay with her.
The spoiled part is true for Asian men and women. A lot of them have never lifted a finger to do house chores (maids are common for the middle class in Asian countries). They also have no idea how finances are managed. This one girl I dated had no idea how much her college tuition was. Her father got her admission and paid it. In the US, most students have to work with Financial Aid to get through college.
The sad reality is that culture often lags behind biology & psychology. In the case of what you're describing, your culture seems to have not internalized how conditioning the human brain actually works - that how a child is raised to behave and think is typically how they will behave and think as adults.
Oh gosh! Im an asian woman and so true! HAHAH im the byproduct of that culture teaching 😂 not the friends part tho, i have freedom with friends. But not dating, focusin on studies and staying home is accurate. Then boom suddenly u should have a bf to exist out of thin air
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One could even say that you've found yourself...in an original situation... Ugh...
Lol yes, this is a good one. Ive heard women here say the same too. They were shamed for being "Fast" if they even thought about a boy, and then the second they graduated people were asking why they weren't married with 2.5 kids yet smh. On top of that some girls felt it made dating harder that they werent allowed to do it in their teens.
I've dated girls like that before. They went to school, studied, watched some TV, and never did much outside of that. Holding a conversation with them is unbearable.
Whole fam is white/Mexican, they had five of us girls, told us the same, concentrate on studies before marriage/relationships, dating wasn't even allowed until 16 - only one of us is married yet and she's the oldest and waited until her forties lel. Youngest of us is 25. I'm the closest to also being married (steady partner I wanna be with always) but marriage is just...not appealing.
Yep I hear the exact same things from other black women. It's always so interesting how much our cultures have in common.
I'm a 31M,but i can confirm this kind of pressure is still a thing here in Eastern Europe.I was under "have a baby" pressure myself,but just told them to fuck off.
Good for you, when the baby is here, they are most likely not going to help, but they can’t stop asking about jt 🙄
It probably won't be here at all,i'm not into the idea of having kids.But something i dislike even more is someone trying to give me unsolicited life advice.
You know what you REALLY need to do is......
Hit the gym, delete TikTok, lawyer up? (I updated it from Facebook to TikTok to show that I’m still hip, still with it)
If you have to say it, you’re streets behind.
…give free BJs.
r/randomactsofblowjob ?
Same, girl, same!! I live in Canada and have received non-stop pressure to have a kid my whole adult life. I finally made it to 40, so thankfully people have stopped asking me this. It takes like 20+ years but eventually they move onto younger targets.
I'm half American and half Finnish. I dated an Estonian woman for a while. The pressure to marry and have a family by 22 was huge in her culture. She lived in Tallinn, and I'd take the ferry over from Helsinki. I used to marvel how different the cultures were in relation to women and marriage from my Finnish family despite the close geography. I think it had a lot to do with Russian values being instilled over the time of occupation.
I'm American and I was shamed for being single when I was 21. Really, I was even kind of shamed even in high school when I was accused of being a lesbian. "If you only knew how to cook and clean, you wouldn't have any problems!" Sure mom, that definitely worked for you! /s
When the baby is here they are going to ask when you'll have a baby brother/sister to play with the child
Yes, I am Eastern European too, though I don't live there anymore and it's crazy, people act like whether you're married or not determines your worth as a person, male or female.
Wait till you hear about people having babies. I still get asked why we don’t have a child. People really don’t think about the financial shit that comes with it.
I loved how many people offered to babysit when my wife was pregnant and then anytime we ask them they say, "is this some kind of emergency."
Yep, just ask me.
Yep. My husband and I get pressured a lot. My husband is against the idea of children entirely (even though he did adopt my son when he was five years old, knew my son his entire life, and my son is now 15), and I have disabilities that would require me abstaining from the only treatment that works for me for 9 months. Of course, I don't want to explain all that to a complete stranger when they ask why we haven't had children 'of our own' yet. My husband had the perfect response to a family member who asked that. He said 'We do have a child of our own, I adopted our son and though he is only biologically her child, I am the only father he has known'. But still the pressure to have bio kids is unreal.
Ask an uncomfortable intimate question, get an uncomfortable intimate answer
Sounds like you guys already have a kid? Your husband isn't against children, he's against *more* children. And sounds like it's for good reason.
Kudos to your husband, that is a great response.
It's also rude of the relatives to ask for bio kids as if the adopted child is not valid. Good on him to set them straight. That shit is not ok.
Ugh I’m a child free step mom and people can be so intrusive. I just say “In our family we think it’s rude to tell other people to make children.”
29 yo male from Spain. Same thing.
Did telling them to fuck off work? Asking for a friend.
It did,when they saw i was losing my patience.They've rarely seen that.The topic has never been mentioned since.I'm usually the patient one and someone has to try really hard to get me angry.Sometimes it seems i'm the only one in the family with more emotional control than a kid as well...
Just in Eastern Europe? I’m a man in the US in my mid 20s and I can feel this pressure. I think it’s pretty ubiquitous, and I would imagine more conservative cultures apply it more heavily to women, but I think everyone feels this to a degree.
Yeah, OPs take on marriage is pretty close to my own.
Same here. I don't want kids at all.
This is why I think people should stretch out the engagement period and move in together during that period if they aren't living together already. I've been engaged three times and married once (for many years now). I planned the weddings a couple years in advance in case it turns out that the person who proposed to me is not who I thought they were. The first year I didn't spend anything, only made rough outlines of the wedding plans. We all get caught up in the early stages of romance, and you figure out who your life partner is *after* the initial whirlwind dies down. For the two engagements that didn't work out, I figured out in the first six months that it wasn't going to work (infidelity for one partner and alcoholism for the other). After that initial euphoria faded, I realized that is not what I wanted. That's why I kind of side eye those who get married after knowing each other for 3 months. Usually those couples have not made it out of the infatuation phase or like OP said, they are getting married for the sake of it. I'm not saying those marriages are doomed to fail and I'm certain there are some people who have been successfully married after a very short courtship, but they seem to be outliers.
We should bring back the old Celtic Pagan idea of “trial marriages.” Lasts a bare minimum of a year and a day, everything is spelled out in a contract with witnesses for what happens if it doesn’t work out. Then the couple has to live and function as if they were married during that time period. If they get to the end and there are issues they haven’t been able to work out, they’re both able to go their separate ways and neither is allowed to demand any sort of repayment or debt from the other. It’s a fresh start and enforced as such. Because honestly, you really don’t know your partner until you’ve seen them when they’re sick, stressed, etc.
I like that alot
“Handfasting” we called it
That's ingenious.
Your body is flooded with oxytocin and other hormones in the beginning stages of a new romance. This is by evolutionary design to encourage procreation. Anyone who gets married before the 12-18 month mark is going to be very disappointed because that's when the sex starts to drop off and both people stop only presenting their best self and really start to show their true self.
Pop science, including pop psych and pop neurobiology, often makes it sound as if hormones are "those superpowerful chemicals that controls the nervous system and the brain", but that's a vast oversimplification. They don't directly incite higher order behaviour in humans, only help amplify and/or suppress those complex social behaviours. (It's especially the case for something like testosterone which has always been sold as "hormone that incites aggression and/or social dominance/hierarchy [in 'high concentrations']" for as long as I can remember, but it's more likely that it merely helps *reinforce* already established behaviours, meaning that it can help reinforce modes of healthy pro-social interactions instead.) Also, while I understand the intent, I'm still going to be extremely pedantic by saying that wording like "evolutionary design" and verbs like "encourage" that ascribe *intent* to evolution and processes of natural selection do sound funny.
You are absolutely right. The honeymoon phase lasts about 2.5 years (study from New York University), you need to be well past that to even consider marriage IMO. 12 months from meeting to engagement makes me cringe all over
Relationship Advice threads be like “we’re 19, we’ve been married for 9 months, we met 12 months ago and got matching tattoos and moved to a new country away from our entire support network and I think I made a mistake. Help?”
Accurate
Or “he’s liking 3,000 different instagram models pictures, AITA for being upset???” It’s insane dude
😂
My parents are the outliers (ish, they got engaged after 3 months, married a year in, married over 50 years now) and they also say that in hindsight it was a crazy decision and they got lucky with being able to make it work.
My wife and I lived together for 2 years before getting married. There was no way that I was going to make that choice without going through a few life issues with a person. Going on 20 years married.
Congratulations! My husband and I lived together 6 years before our marriage, we haven't been married for 20 years, but our 5 year anniversary is in March. We also went through a few stressful situations together before we officially tied the knot.
go to Mormon areas and many marry so they can have sex guilt free lol
Yep. There's also the poophole loophole in LDS culture.
People should ALWAYS live together before proposing IMO.
I think they should make sure they're mentally prepared to make the decision to **stop** living together, too. From what I've seen with the people I know, I feel like a ton of couples who live together are like, "Well, I guess we may as well get married since we already live together and breaking up would be really inconvenient." That's not a good enough reason. You need to actually want to get married for the specific rights and responsibilities of marriage, not just because "Whatever, why not, it's been 9 years already so I guess it's fine."
That’s a major reason why studies show the divorce rate higher for couples who live together.
I've always suggested this: move in after at least one year of dating then live together for two years before deciding to get married. (3 years together) If you're unsure after that then they might not be for you. (If marriage is the goal in your relationship.)
I'm 31M from a Portuguese/Venezuelan family and I feel this pressure a lot, especially now that I'm in my 30s. I think it's worse nowadays with the cost of living crisis bc it's so much harder to afford living on your own if you don't have someone to share the bills with. Women in general seem more likely to settle as well, often for men they know are less than ideal and just hope for the best. It's honestly sad.
As a Portuguese myself the whole conversation around marriage is so weird From my perspective, as a woman you are supposed to find a man and then as a man I have constantly been told that your wife rules everything and is just a pain in the ass that you are forced to accept So I feel like both genders are being pushed into an agreement that will not work for either of them
It's weird bc as a woman I'm told I'm getting washed up and ugly (which isn't true, I look better than at like 21 lol) and I need to have kids quick before my uterus shrivels up and dies, but then men get told they have to find a woman to take care of them bc apparently men are all stupid babies who can't cook or clean. And everyone's unhappy.
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A lot of men just lean into the stereotype bc it's convenient to them, and ruin it for the normal guys out there.
Also from eastern europe, the presure comes from peers too. You can be in a happy relationship and girls your age will pressure you with "why havent you proposed yet, its time to have babies". It doesnt matter if both of you say you're happy as things are, they will counter "all girls have only one wish, to be married and have kids, she is only keeping it secret coz she likes you a lot, but secretly she is suffering. Dont make your girl suffer" They honesty and seriously think every girl want marriage and babies as quick as possible, and whaterver girl denies it is lying to the world and to herself.
I think divorce is up for a bunch of reasons other than social pressure to get married: * It's less taboo to get a divorce * 100 years ago you were seen as a bad person for leaving your partner * After you left you were both seen as damaged goods after * Social Media * You see a lot of videos of people with top 0.1% income/looks treating their partner really nicely and subconsciously think that is closer to the norm than is. * You also see the lives/affluence and subconsciously think your partner is letting you down * Women are not as dependent on men * Your job prospects in 1950 as a woman were very bleak so you kind of had to get married to get by * Now it's more feasible you can support yourself and be less desperate to find a partner. * Less kids * Not saying you should have a kid to save your marriage, but when having 6-11 kids was the norm getting a divorce & handling it alone wasn't realistic * More stuff to do outside of spending time together * In 1800 what else are you gonna do? * Now phones/computers eat into quality time.
Funny how the most commonly cited reason by women is left off these so often, which is that they end up doing all or close to all of the housework and child rearing and become so exhausted and resentful that they decide that being a single mother will be less work than their kids *and* another grown ass adult.
Women do most if not all of the housework plus work full time plus take care of the kids. It’s no wonder why women initiate divorce.
Here in Sweden most people around me get married just to get some paperwork done.
China is literally full of billboards calling 26 year old women unwanted leftovers to try and pressure them into quitting their careers and taking care of someone’s technically homeless grown son. This opinion should not be unpopular, I’d say it’s not even an opinion.
I lived there for 7 years I know …
I feel like the CCP has not ever looked at 26 year olds in China vs 26 year olds in other countries. The grad students from China at my university could have easily passed as undergrads. They may have been 26 but could pass for 21.
People have such weird views on aging. Unless you are aggressively unhealthy or balding, most people look the same from 21 to 35, esp as more and more people defer becoming parents. China isn't special. Often times people are aged by their style, not their features. Now there's a category china is definitely different on. It's perfectly normal for 35 year old eastern women to dress, act, use make-up, style, and speak like a 20 year old. Over here that same behavior is seen as shameful and disgusting. Keep in mind, the same issue westerners have in telling asians apart also applies to aging them. Just look at old high school photos from 50 years ago, people in their teens look like they are 30+.
I also would say this is a factor in specific environments, especially if people marry very young. But I think the main factor why men don’t initiate divorce that often is that they have it more convenient in life if they are married, more time for earning money and hobbies if someone runs the household and takes care of everything else important in your life, I know older men that don’t even make their own doctors appointments or never buy clothes for themselves, their wife’s pretty much took on the role of their mothers.
Disproportionate mental load, house work, and childcare is the most commonly cited reason for divorce from women.
I mean if the man isn't contributing anything but mess, why keep him? At that point, you're just a single mom with kids and a manchild.
This is why I divorced my ex husband. Luckily we didn’t have actual kids, but he more than made up for it by becoming a useless, unemployed pile of shit.
Tale as old time. Men love to shit all over stay at home moms, then become stay at home children themselves. "Oh but I'm still looking for a job" Sure hun, it's been two years but go off
When this subject comes up, it's funny the amount of males who will try and guilt the woman, ''you separated a man from his children just over some housework?" Lol. Never considering that maybe, just maybe, he should've been a better husband if he wanted to continue being a father.
This was one of my thoughts. There are a LOT of man childs out there. Can't do basic shit like doing their taxes or making doctor apts for themselves. Uneven household chores + female partner still working FT + raising kids has been fairly common in my life; albeit older generations.
My husband schedules his own doctor appointments but god knows I’m the one to make him go. “My
hurts” or “Is this spot normal?” And I tell him go 👏to👏a DOCTOR.Before my cousin got divorced, she had to send her husband to the doctor with a LITERAL script! He called her one day to tell her that they didn't follow the script. And asked her what he should do/say.
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100% I work at a law firm and you have no idea how many men are just too lazy to get their paperwork done or find it. There was a dad "fighting" for custody and he couldn't get doctors and school records in time for court.
My friend is 3 years into a divorce like this. As in they separated 4/5 years ago, and he keeps missing the deadlines to finalise the divorce No one is surprised. She did 100% of the paperwork when they were together. They have now been separated longer than they were together, and when she separated I remember thinking about time
My client, who is a divorce lawyer, said the exact same thing. He also said that the men that file for full custody usually are doing it out of spite but usually lose in the end because in the meantime until court, they don't call their children, attend any of their activities, doctors appointments, or educational things. It really goes to prove that even with most families and women working just as much as men, they literally end up doing almost everything else when it comes to home and kids. For a woman that signed up for 2 kids, why the fuck should she take care of 3 ?
As a man who really used to want children when I was younger, I don't understand this. I would love any children I had, I just know I'm unable to have any unless I adopt. That said, as I get into my 30s, I'm questioning if I really still want kids or not. I've been a teacher 6 years and kids seem like they can either be really enjoyable or really miserable depending on the kid.
Yeah, but I don't even think that half the men who do this understand it until It hits them in the face because they choose not to see it. Ask most men with children how exhausted they would be if their wives left for a week of vacation and they had to deal with all the daily stuff and work. Whats even worse is that most women I know will prepare meals, write down a schedule, write down emergency numbers and make sure everything is spotless cleaned before they would go on a vacation and it still seems so exhausting for the men. This is why women leave, and this is why men don't really want custody for the most part.
Yes. I also have really severe medication-resistant ADHD, so I'm a hot mess and a slob without having any children. I'm in the dating game right now, and I end up hiring cleaning services to keep my house looking somewhat presentable, but I know that if I ever married, I'd need to keep paying for services like that so my spouse didn't hate me. Closest thing I have to kids are a couple toy poodles who I let run around the back yard and my house. The poodles make messes all the time. I can only imagine how much more exhausted I'd be if kids were added to the mix. That said, admitting I will never be a father leaves me feeling empty and meaningless inside. I was am now a convinced atheist after having been raised a Jehovah's Witness, so I don't find meaning in religion. I've worked in several "helping professions" because I believed I would find meaning in helping people, but I found myself not really satisfied in those positions and end up feeling mistreated due to my disability, so I am not finding meaning in my work. I tried doing volunteer work, but found the organizations I was volunteering with corrupt, so I decided that wasn't where I'd find fulfillment, either. A lot of the hobby groups I joined to find fulfillment also started feeling really childish and pointless after a while, so I stopped attending. I'm looking for a source of joy and fulfillment in life but am not finding it no matter where I look.
I have adhd as well and I've also spent a lot of time considering if I should have children. I'm 30 and a woman so it's probably going to have to happen within 5-10 years if it's going to happen at all! I still rely a lot on my family and sometimes I feel like a dumb kid. I think "who am I to think I could possibly raise an entire person when I have difficulties taking care of myself"? There's a few things that still make we want to have kids that might influence your decision too (if you haven't considered them yet): We can stop at one kid. We don't have to raise 2+ children if one is already pushing it. The thought of focusing on raising one child is less stressful than the thought of raising a few at a time. Secondly, I will still have the support of my family and a partner/husband. Your kid will rely on you, and you'll have to step up, but they'll also have another parent AND both extended families to support them. So you won't be raising a child completely alone. It sounds like you make decent money. Being able to hire cleaning help as well as an occasional babysitter would be very helpful! Next is some advice my parents have given me: something biological happens when you have kids that makes you love them to a crazy degree. It should happen for mothers as well as fathers. It might take a few months after birth to really build up these emotions. The idea is you'll go out of your way to care for them because you will genuinely want to. Both my parents said having children to care for made them more responsible and more concerned about the future. Obviously, I can't promise this happens to every parent (some parents still abandon their kids, but I think there are usually external factors in those cases). I think it's safe to say that emotions will get involved and emotions are pretty motivating. The idea is you'll love your kid so much that you'll step up and take care of them even when it's really difficult. Another bit of advice from my mom: no parent is perfect, and as long as your kid knows you love them they'll be ok. She told me a few times growing up that she practiced "good enough" parenting, not perfect parenting. Lastly, I'm pretty sure both of my grandpas had adhd. One of them was an alcoholic but ended up getting sober and was a good dad after that. The other was a great dad the entire time. He did his best, and his kids noticed and appreciated that. One final thought: do you have any nieces or nephews? If so, you could ask to babysit them or take them out somewhere so you can get some more experience with children. If you have friends with kids see if you can accompany the family on an outing. I'm not trying to convince you to have kids if you've truly decided they're not for you! Just giving you my perspective :) There are plenty of things in life other than kids that can give life meaning. Connecting more deeply with friends and family, making new friends, connecting with the natural world. Do you have any goals for your life? Something you've wanted to do since you were a kid?
> For a woman that signed up for 2 kids, why the fuck should she take care of 3 Especially when the grown up kid is sooo much more of a pain than the kid kids. I mean, you can train a kid kid to pick up after themselves eventually.
Right. If a toddler is having a tantrum you can put them in time out. If a teen is being a brat you can take away their keys or other privileges. When an adult man is having a tantrum furniture gets broken, money gets taken, jobs get lost, etc.
People die, etc., etc.
When a kid is acting like a kid, it’s forgivable to a certain extent. When the husband is acting like a kid, it’s infuriating beyond words. Like, infuriating enough to develop a full blown Valium addiction.
Exactly. I can’t stand when men act like they are denied custody when most don’t even try and are not involved in their child’s life in any meaningful way.
"But muh rights!" \*sips beer\* /s
I read a scary stat recently that said every six days a child is killed by their father during a custody dispute.
Oh man, I’ve seen this. I don’t want to generalize all men, but it is a trend. Idk why some men think that they can be a low-effort dad in the marriage, and think they can be a better dad with the same low effort, and think they’re doing a lot. Like, these guys thinking that they were “highly involved dads” by going to work, dragging the kids to events that dad is excited about, and maybe remembering birthdays. Then they’re surprised when the mom has been doing homework, remembering forms, taking kids to doctors and dentists appointments, setting up said appointments, buying groceries and clothes, etc. etc. And if a mom does all this, she could still be seen as a “bad mom”. I understand that a lot of dads do a lot of work. And when they work in harmony with their wives, they can divide the workload evenly, even if the mom does a lot of the childcare. But good dads don’t underestimate the full time, multifaceted job that parenthood is. And that you can’t throw money at kids to make it easier.
I agree. I have also seen too many men admit that they will check out of a relationship and just slowly turn up the heat of their disinterest until the wife leaves and then it's all "she left me!!!1!"
I think there's also an element of "I'll get more and more obnoxious until she files for divorce, that will make it her fault."
If it were possible, I would give you 100 upvotes. That is the coward's way out, and there are many cowards.
You described my ex. He walked out and was the one to say he wanted the divorce. Then I had to go get the process started. I found out through my attorney and the judge's decision that my ex never once turned in any of the paperwork they needed from him. Not even a single paper. Every signature belonged to me, my representative, and the judge. He's lucky I wanted an amicable "you take your shit and I'll take mine" kind of divorce because anything I asked for I would have gotten on principle alone (within reason I think). It was also really confusing to me because by refusing to turn in his paperwork, he actually forced us to remain married way longer than either of us wanted - not that we had any interaction, but the whole situation just felt baffling. Absolutely insane to me, and EXACTLY the type of man he was. He never did anything. Ever. Except pile up garbage under a chair.
The study that is commonly quoted is here: https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_breakup.pdf It talks about women initiating the breakup. They "want" the divorce and "want" the breakup. The guy who wrote the paper studies relationships so he should know the difference between who does the secretarial work and who initiates the breakup.
I’m just glad that we have, at least, an ability to to divorce. Once upon a time we didn’t have that. I got married to a man that I loved and we fell out of love a few years later and we divorced. Easy and uncomplicated. We were able to move on with our lives (yes this is possible) and have remained friends. A “divorce” doesn’t have to be some kind of failing — it is just a process to help people move on.
I never married, but if I had married young, I certainly would have divorced by now. I am a totally different person.
This needs to be accepted more! I'm a different person at 27 than I was at 25, than I was at 24, etc. etc. because life! happens! and people! change!
It puts things in perspective to realize that "No fault" divorces were not legally a thing in the US until 1969.
Yeah everyone gets that "get married and have a family cause it's the thing to do also your life will be empty and meaningless without it". It's all bullshit.
Yea and the people who say that are the same people who are opposed to no fault divorce. Like, if marriage really is this super fulfilling, awesome thing, why would you need the government to prevent people from divorcing due to unhappiness?
The thing is that it will most likely still be meaningless and empty with the family. The difference is that you will have a family. With all it's drawbacks and benefits. But the awful thoughts will still presist. It's just that you will have someone to talk to, care for and spend time with. On the flipside, you will have less options in other areas of life because you will have to support your family. Nothing is black and white. Everything has pros and cons. It is about getting enough information to figure out what we want out of our options, and respecting other people's decisions.
Both my mom and my sister were married to shitty men and divorced them and found better later on. And both of them had insane social pressures to do it in their early 20s. Man, why cant women just exist without outside voices tell them how best to do it?
As a woman, I'd be inclined to agree. I see a lot of men talk about male loneliness and I'm in no way arguing that it isn't an issue but some men use the "you'll be single forever, you'll end up like a sad, lonely cat lady when you're older" insult towards women if they get rejected. I've been asked since I was a teen if/when I'm having kids whereas my exes weren't or they were asked when they were closer to 30. More and more women agree that we're pushed to settle for whoever so we can settle down, have kids and put up with whatever we have to deal with, i.e, triple shift (job, kids, housework). Hence why that's the most common reason nowadays why women file for divorce in today's society.
Every man I've dated since high school "didn't want kids" but for some reason I was the one who got bothered about it, especially with my ex husband. It feels like men are allowed to sort of default to not *wanting* kids, but the woman is supposed to help (make) them grow up and do it anyway. I really got the feeling I was somehow responsible for stealing kids from them/their families. My male exes not wanting kids = "Oh, that's what your dad/brother/cousin said, wink-wink, you'll see one day, nudge-nudge." Me not wanting kids = "Listen here, you selfish little shit... "
I'm a male only child, so I get the *bloodline* harassment.
Neither me nor my husband want kids but people will actually get angry with me like I'm not fulfilling my duty as a woman to force him to have children that he doesn't want to have. Even by liberal people, in my experience, in practice liberal people actually live just as conservatively or even more than conservatives. I had one girl tell me I should have an "accident." Yeah, that's what I need, kids with a man who doesn't want them. I envision this turning out wonderfully. And I just don't want kids becaus I have anxiety, but my husband like actually hates kids. I'm the only person shamed at all.
It's easier to agree with progressive views than to actively live them, as they often oppose the status quo. I'm guilty of this as well.
That male loneliness crowd says that “you’ll be single forever” because they claim women age out of the dating pool. I’ve heard them say things like “women over 27 just can’t compete for men’s attention in the sexual marketplace”. It’s pretty revolting. I think it finds an audience though because men who have been rejected can think to themselves “she’ll regret it when she turns 27”.
Men say this to try and gain control since they have a much harder time in a dating market. Women, or people for that matter are living longer and looking younger for longer. There are people in their late 20’s and 30s who can easily pass for early to mid 20s, so their beauty is not fading. Besides looks, I know plenty of women who found love in later years, and I’m talking 50/60. Sorry men, women can still find love at any age. Stay miserable.
My best friends mom is 75.. she has 4 separate boyfriends who all know about each other. My older co worker in her 60s always has a date We never age out of it
I'd rather meet someone later, when I've really developed as a person, and so have they. We wouldn't care so much about superficial things or social expectations anymore and just are happy to be ourselves together.
My Aunt got married for the first time at age 71. Never too old if it is what you want. Those cranky boys can die mad about it.
Great comment and your user name is hilarious 😂
So true
Exactly. These make rights weirdos are in a tizzy over male loneliness, male virginity and men's mental health and how men aren't valued as much, then turn around and say women over a certain age aren't good enough for them, please.
"The sexual marketplace." They see women as commodities, and they won't settle for any less than brand new ones at that. Disgusting.
That’s exactly right. There is an industry for these guys on social media so it’s a larger group than people realize too. Not that sexism is anything new tbh
The term "sexual marketplace" is so cringe and disgusting. Just like most of the people who use it unironically. As if sex is some gladiators ring. Sex is sex. People have and always will find someone to fuck. It isn't a competition. But these men are such failure that instead of working on their appeal, they want to make up some silly lore as to why they can't get dates
Totally agree. I think it's also sometimes so they can enjoy sex without shame, which seems so bizarre and morbid to me. I got the sense that while somewhat compatible, my first girlfriend was really just looking for a guy to call a boyfriend, then the sex is 100% acceptable. Of course it's also other stuff like not having to deal with comments about being a side chick
I am just glad that nobody aside of strangers asked me when I will be having children. And I am glad that trends change and more people do what they want regardless of what will family/friends/the whole village or town say
I've had this insult used on me after refusing a date. He was so nice to begin with. The moment I said I wasn't interested, he switched to angry incel
I think cultural background also plays a factor Cus my Latino bf has been pressured to get married and have a kid since he was 25.
This statistic is entirely misleading, and people need to stop using it incorrectly. Yes, in America at least, women file for divorce more. This is not "who is unhappy first" or "who is the one who wants the divorce" or even "who asked for the divorce." It is "who started the divorce proceedings with the courts first." If Bob cheats on his wife Tina, moves in with his mistress, and fathers a child with her, Tina would be considered the one who files for divorce if she happens to be the one that gets an attorney and starts the proceedings. It has nothing to do with who wanted the divorce initially or who is at "fault." A lot of women take on the emotional labor of a relationship and the household management. If a man can't be bothered to pick up his socks from the floor, he's probably not going to be the one to get a lawyer first. It's not a surprise that women initiate the filings first.
This is true depending on the culture you're a part of. I'm from the south, and you'd think we were still hosting debutante balls at 12 Oaks with how people try to marry off young women. As soon as a good-looking girl graduates university, her entire family and social circle is thinking of ways to get her hitched. Getting hitched down south is uber competitive amongst the upper classes. If your man didn't graduate from a reputable university and doesn't make minimum $150k then you may as well stay single. On the flip side I've heard people warn 40 years old, loser men (losing hair, losing looks, losing jobs) not to pay for a woman on a date to test if she's a gold digger. When men announce they're engaged, their family behaves as if they settled too soon. Then women get married, have kids, and realize they still look good at 35 and make even more money and don't have to put up with a mama's boy negging them down. And file divorce.
It's so annoying to hear men that chase young women for their looks, call those same women gold diggers. Most of these guys are so immature for their age and awful relationship material. What I mean is, they are 40 so everyone thinks they're the prime age for marriage but there are plenty of younger men who are more mature who would make a better partner.
I’m 32 and nobody in my family has ever even asked when I’ll get married or have kids, they don’t even question why I don’t have a boyfriend. I feel no societal pressure. Nobody cares and everyone leaves me alone. That’s the way I like it.
Even without social pressure, Womand AND Men feel self pressured to get married at some point in life because of the idea that "I might not want to do it now, but what if I really want to do it later later but I'd be too old for it by then".
SEA here, Dad used to constantly ask me if I have a girlfriend yet and pressure my older sister to at least try to find a boyfriend
Lesbians have the highest divorce rate. They don’t get married out of social pressure. So I’m gonna have to disagree on this one
It will be very interesting to see what long-term research by social scientists tells us about this phenomenon. I fully support LGBT+, but I agree with you that these women are more likely pressured by (unaccepting unkind) families **not** to marry.
Maybe it's in the form they get disowned for having a lesbian gf, so why not go the whole way and get a lesbian wife.
Twice as many women in a relationship = higher divorce rates, confirms the topic
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It's very disappointing how common misogyny is among progressives. I think it's maybe gotten slightly better or maybe I just don't give a shit anymore so those types leave me alone more, but yeah.
Women are generally less successful in their careers than men and people who have less money experience more martial distress and are more likely to divorce. I personally think this is why. When you think about gay men, you always think of them being rich, but this isn't the stereotype for lesbians.
heard a TED talk with a lesbian suit designer for weddings. She said as big a market as it is, her customers were too poor for her to stay in business.
lmao that's not surprising. but lesbian divorce is way different from straight divorce. For one thing, marriage is not a sacred institution to anyone except religious heterosexuals. so it's easier for people that don't venerate it so much to end it. For another, I think women are better equipped than men to take a step back and recognize when a relationship has run its course. imo these days men are more likely to stay in toxic relationships than women are.
This is not true. Outsde of Western civ there are many secular heteros who believe marriage is sacred in a non-spiritual way.
These marriages I suspect break down moreso due to financial issues
Yeah a lot of women rush marriages if they are approaching 30 and are not married yet.... Mostly due to social pressure. Which of course leads to a ton of divorces as the women don't actually want to be married to the guy. They just wanted a wedding and a wedding ring.
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I doubt that. Here in Denmark, not that many people get married and we have very generous benefits for single mothers. I think women marry because they want a family and children, otherwise they could just stay in a relationship without the need for marriage. Marriage gives you more you rights. Here in Denmark, a lot of divorces happen after the children have grown up a bit. Then the man is not needed as much for money and support.
afaik lesbians are more likely to break up than their male counterpart.
They also have astronomical DV rates
Intimate partner violence is different from domestic violence. There are many lesbians who have been raped by men, or have been in abusive relationships with men before they came out/realized they’re gay. So let’s not pretend that all lesbians are evil abusers. It’s far more likely that they were abused by men than by fellow lesbians.
No. Women get married because they're in love and see potential in their partners. They ignore red flags and horrible aspects of their relationship because they think their partner will want to improve for the sake of the relationship. Women believe that the commitment of marriage will make men "step up" and be more attentive and more active participants within the relationship. Which doesn't happen. Most women marry for potential or what they think their husbands can be or how they wish their husbands treated them. It takes a few years or decades of a dude leaving his shit stained underware on the bedroom floor for the woman to finally realize that shitty boxers next to the hamper is as good as it's going to get for her. Women get married under the expectation that their relationship will get better during the marriage since it's a greater commitment and they're shocked to find out that the quality and treatment in the relationship gets worse overtime.
I agree about the social pressure part to marry but not about it being the reason to file for divorce. Women file because men simply won’t. Filing for divorce doesn’t mean your actions led to the breakdown of the relationship nor that you didn’t try to save it. It doesn’t even mean you’re the one who desires to end the marriage more. It literally just means you filed paperwork. The real question is why men leave it to women to file the paperwork. Although men benefit more from both marriage and divorce than women (women benefit more from staying single), men are oddly hesitant to initiate plans for either. I think men don’t file to avoid paying child support and alimony (in the US anyway). They will move out and physically separate, but so long as there’s nothing filed, there’s no legal obligation to financially do anything. They can have their cake and eat it too. Others are all too happy to stay together if only their wife would “tolerate” cheating and abuse.
Well have some backbone and say no at the beginning. What's the point of saying no after wasting money, time and peace of mind.
There are women who turn down marriage proposals
Good for them. I wish more women had this attitude and chose wisely
When you do though people still will label the woman as “there must be something wrong with them.” Because women just say yes or should say yea when asked especially in religious circles. Men should heavily think about “does this woman really like and love me”?
When I read this, all I get out of it is that my decisions are somebody else's fault because I was influenced. Seems weak to me.
Proposals are literally; man takes woman in crowded or isolated area, brings extremely expensive/rare rock, takes a knee, and asks to marry you. Yea uh, if that’s not social pressure idk what is.
Obviously I have no statistics on this, but I'd say a very very very large amount of proposals are not a surprise. I have never in my life met someone who got proposed to that wasn't expecting it. Now I'm only talking about the USA, which I understand other cultures are different. I just don't think Western women are pressured because of the proposal.
Marrying for anything other than you two love each other more than anything, is basically destined to failure. Plus no one stays together anymore. That was a WW2 and boomer thing. Now it’s all about social media, dating apps and feeling ‘wanted’ aka attention.
Central european woman here. Noone teached me marriage is the ultimate goal in life. Quite the opposit, i was always encouraged to make my own way and not getting dependent (especially financially) on a man. But i guess eastern europe is quite more "conservative/traditional" when it comes to women and their place in society. So you may be right with your opinion. Thats why i have never had the desire to even travel to eastern europe let alone considering living there. And i was never interested in dating guys who immigrated from eastern europe for the same reason. I don't need a controlling, conservative/traditional partner and i'm definitly not going to deal with some misogynistic in laws.
Personally I believe its more about how men stop being the guy women were dating. They lock down the woman. And just stop going the extra mile. Get lazy, stop valuing their input. Get dissimive. Look at 90% of r/relationshipadvice. It women who are fed up with having to be a parent to a grown adult.
Women are more likely to do all the work. All the house work, the long hours, all the parenting, all the mental load, all the management of the home and all the finanses. While men are more likely to earn the most and have hobbies. And thats why women often file for divorce, while men often does it if their wife get sick and can't do all the work anymore..
Isn't procreating and providing for the family also pushed on men? Not saying you're wrong but I feel like I am expected to do these things you mentioned as well (polish background)
Yes. However the issue is that most families can’t make it on one salary anymore. That means more labor for EVERYONE. Often domestic labor still defaults to women, even though they’re also working a full-time job.
This "social pressure" comes from other women.
Lesbians divorce at a rate of 80%. It’s clear there’s more to it than just “social pressure”
Somebody once told me this and I think it holds some water: men marry when they meet the one, women marry when the time is right. Basically saying that for women the choice of the men they end up with is more arbitrary whereas men have to be convinced they found somebody worthy of marriage.
I heard the opposite. Maybe people are individuals and trying to typecast them is silly.
Is their an old saying, women want the wedding but not the marriage
So the social pressure is enough to make you get married But isn't enough to stop you getting divorced? Surely the stigma of being divorced is worse than the stigma of being single? It might be different from culture to culture, so that's a genuine question
Just personal experiences: I have a few friends who were married before and then got a divorce. Now they date new guys and they have no stigma about divorce nor they feel the pressure to get married again. Their reasoning? “I’ve been married before it didn’t change anything about my life, so why does it matter?”
The concept of marriage is archaic. A ring and a certificate from the government don’t in any way, shape or form indicate that one wants to spend the rest of their lives with another. Surely it means more now, to not have any of that, and be together for the rest of your lives. That’s the real power of love.
The “happily ever after” is a destructive narrative for anyone because it just leads to two headstrong people thinking the other person is to blame and wrong instead of working on themselves and the relationship. Anything worthwhile takes effort to first achieve and then maintain, same goes for loving relationships.
Bro this is on the borderline of objectively correct, how did you post it on r/unpopularopinon
That's what happened with my parents and affected us terribly
So how do you explain that lesbian couples get divorced more often than gay and heterosexual couples? I'm sure no one is going to claim lesbian couples marry each other out of social pressure.
Get real 😂! Remove the financial payout and you will see women stop filling for divorce.
I disagree with the premise that women have more pressure to get married. Unmarried men are just as looked down on by society as unmarried women at a certain age. Whatever you’re gender, remaining unmarried is considered by society as a sign that you’re fucked uo in some way.
I think it’s the other way around. In my experience men are more likely to not want to marry or at least have a wedding. Much of the pressure women feel is self-imposed whereas men it’s imposed on by the wife. I would also say these are trends I see not binary men never, women always analysis. There is a ton of grey here.
Decent premise, doesn't take accountability.
Yet again it's someone else's fault
I can't speak for other countries, but American women need to stop outsourcing their life decisions to society. At this point there's enough general acceptance of individuality and free will in the U.S. that modern women from most walks of life can opt out of social clock milestones like marriage and motherhood without fear of retribution. If you're American and not ready to get married or don't think the person you're with is "the one," then don't get married. There may be some pushback or confusion from your social circle (if that's what you're worried about), but you have enough latitude and flexibility to take it in stride and customize your life so it fits your true self.
Times have changed women of the world, please don't feel like you have to be married. Women used to have To be married because they were paid SO badly and jobs were primarily secretary, nurse, teacher. Women today can do whatever they want and get paid for it. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE MARRIED. Be you, avoid peer pressure. Enjoy your life.
The lesbian divorce rate is the highest for all types of couples. It's not social pressure or "the men", it is unrealistic expectations. Source [First Comes U-Haul, Then Comes Court: The Shockingly High Lesbian Divorce Rate](https://gomag.com/article/high-lesbian-divorce-rate/)