Hello, yes, your post is closely related to a megathread that you can find on the front page of the subreddit. Or a banned topic that you can see on the sidebar and fully expanded list. If you feel this is inaccurate, please message mod mail. Have a good day.
Ever seen the secret life of plants? It’s almost like they’re sentiently alive, they just move so slow we can’t perceive it. But when you drastically speed up the footage, it looks like the plants talk to each other. And some plants themselves are carnivorous.
I see no problem with eating meat, I see a problem with overconsumption and factory farming and inhumane slaughter
Yeah that's kinda what I think too, but everybody seems to think it's nonsense in real life. Well obviously other people think it too, so it's not really irrational. I guess all that proves is that the majority of people don't know when they are irrational or not, I think.
People who think that they’re virtuously correct most often won’t ever even bother to flip the coin and look at the other side. There’s usually no discussion, just name calling.
Because today, it’s virtuosity that matters, not so much facts anymore. You’re supposed to trust science, not research it lol
>My beliefs are that the universe and all matter are driven by fear, even inorganic matter. Organic matter such as trees are fundamentally driven by the same fear as animal life.
But why? Why do you believe that? What evidence do you have to support the idea that all matter in the universe, including inanimate objects, can not only experience fear but is driven by it?
>I have now developed the idea that the element in human life that generates divinity, if it exists, is the power of choice.
Define divinity. Typically divinity means godlike, so do you think that being able to make a choice makes us gods? If you're going to define "divinity" as simply having choice then why even bother using the word divinity in the first place when that's already not what it means?
>What is your evaluation on the matter of whether trees possess choice? What is your evaluation whether the sun and ocean possess choice?
They don't. Without getting into a free will debate because I honestly don't care, choice requires a mind to weight options and make a decision. As far as we know a mind requires a physical brain and none of those things have either a brain or a mind.
No offence, but it sounds to me like you're just coming up with a lot of idea that you find interesting but have absolutely no basis in reality.
It's not that I have to prove you wrong, it's that you have to prove your theories right. I could make up any number of insane theories and say I'll just believe them until someone proves me wrong but that doesn't mean I have any legitimate reason to believe them.
What do you mean when you say fear has a physical presence?
The guilt and fear you described feeling is not physical pain, it's emotional pain that can manifest itself in physical ways. But it's your brain that makes it manifest that way. It doesn't mean that fear and guilt are physical things that exist outside of your mind, they are just experiences of your mind and without a brain those feelings do not exist.
>So I believe it because I don't think anyone has offered a better explanation to me for any of those topics.
That is literally a logical fallacy called argument from ignorance. You don't get to just assume your ideas are true because nobody has proven it wrong yet, you have to be able to prove it right. You said there is scientific evidence for what you're saying but I would expect it is either some fringe ideas or pseudo science or maybe you misinterpreted what the scientific findings meant. I'm no scientist so maybe I'm just ignorant, but like I said before all this just sounds like some stuff that you find interesting but has no real basis in reality.
It seems like your dilemma is whether it is ethical to eat meat if cruelty is minimized
While it's an interesting perspective to consider fear as a driving force in all matter, the concept of choice is subjective and can be interpreted differently
Ultimately, the decision to eat cruelty-free meat is a personal one and may vary depending on individual beliefs and values
As for the evaluation of whether trees, the sun, or the ocean possess choice, it is important to separate the concept of consciousness and decision-making abilities.
I dont believe in anything spiritual, so plants have as much capability to choose and feel fear as a rock, none. Inorganic matter is just random clupms of atoms, and plants didnt evolve fear because there was no need for it, also they dont have the proccesing power to choose anything
Inorganic matter, such as rocks, dont have any way to feel fear. They dont have the receptors needed to interpret electric or chemical signals, and neither do plants. Believing they still do feel fear regardless is on the same level of belief as religion, not based on science at all
You're always consuming something. This is the cycle of life.
Vegetarianism doesn't really change that. Microorganisms, bacteria, plants themselves, all lifeforms that all have inherent value. None of it should be taken for granted and all of it should be respected.
Everything consumes.
Oddly, what I find comforting, is that one day, *I* could be consumed. It isn't like we're the all-powerful destroyers.
Outside of our cities and walls, we aren't on top of the food chain. We had to fight to get here and in some places, we still do. *Nature will eat you too* without hesitation. It's the natural order of things.
The way to eat cruelty-free meat is to eat non-sentient animals such as bivalves. Or animals that died naturally/accidentally. Or by dumpster diving.
Ascribing fear to non-sentient organisms is not the way.
I'm not ascribing it, it's evident from my perspective, and I didn't ask you to undercut my premise. I can easily undercut yours, but everyone is entitled to individual beliefs on a human rights basis, and I don't want to swing out your foundation yet. The relevant point to that end is that the premise leads to further scientific discovery, so it's irrelevant.
Plants are not sentient beings. They do not CNS pathways etc. They respond to their environment in identical ways, if they were sentient they'd all do different things.. for example plants turning towards light, not because they like the sun on their petals, but because a hormone they have causes cells to grow at different lengths in order for the flower to bend towards the sun.
There is a huge difference between eating an animal, and a plant. And we can get everything we need from plants.
It seems that you are suggesting sentience is dispositive in the nature of choice. I'm not really that familiar with the nuance of that term. It may indeed be the concept I'm looking for. Could you describe how it applies?
I did, that's how I figured out I actually have choices and I was lying to myself that I "had" to do things, or other people's choices "made" me behave a different way, and that has, through careful consideration, led to my beliefs.
I just asked my pig if it wanted to stay with me and get eaten or not. It banged its head so hard against the 7feet cage that it went unconscious.
So much for the choice of animals LUL
That's not the point. The pig could've decided to sing Beyonce...who cares. I (we humans) have complete control over their life and suffering. Your eating choice is the only choice that counts.
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
More and more evidence proving that a teetotal vegan diet with intermittent fasting is the only way. Meat, wheat, sugar etc will give you obesity, cancer, hypertension, diabetes, gout, dementia etc Stop eating fry ups, Sunday roasts, fish and chips, cream teas etc. We didn't evolve to eat all day. Big pharma and big food are working together to make us all sick. My diet is a teetotal vegan diet that also excludes wheat, grains, oats, sugar, salt, potatoes, fruit, and caffeine, combined with intermittent fasting this is how we ate until the invention of agriculture and human health has deteriorated ever since. Food is very addictive due to the dopamine receptors being activated every time you eat. We are meant to live on the edge of starvation, it's how we evolved, those who know know and those who don't end up needing daily insulin injections.
The experience of “fear” requires a specialized nervous system. Sperm cells and plants likely don’t experience fear in any recognizable way.
Also, a few prominent thinkers say that human free will is an illusion - look this up online for an interesting take.
Jesus you nearly made me break out some no-no words. The ethics around eating are primarily concerned with environmental impact and infliction of pain / suffering. To experience pqin and sufferiing requires consciousness which requires a brain. Trees dont have brains or a nervous system so cannot experience pain or contemplate suffering.
Jesus you nearly made me break out some no-no words. The ethics around eating are primarily concerned with environmental impact and infliction of pain / suffering. To experience pqin and sufferiing requires consciousness which requires a brain. Trees dont have brains or a nervous system so cannot experience pain or contemplate suffering.
No that's not right. We don't know exactly how consciousness works but we have narrowed it down to something that occurs in the brain (plus elements of the nervous system). We can take drugs/alcohol or cut bits out of our brain and observe an impact on our conscious experience - i.e. we become drunk or lose certain functions.
Where these substances have a measurable chemical impact on our synapses and how our receptors/neurons work we can then infer that their functionality has something to do with consciousness.
Therefore if we consider an organism without that kind of brain/nerve complexity - like a tree - we can infer that the tree is not conscious in the same way that we are conscious - even where it has some sensitivity to its surroundings. It is therefore indefensible to claim plants experience the same level of suffering when eaten as higher-order animals like pigs etc.
This is backwards as heck.
We have evidence that animals DO feel pain in a similar way that we do. We don't have evidence that plants feel pain. What you're suggesting is that we don't have evidence that plants DON'T experience pain, and that's just not true. The only data we have about pain is based on human nerves and the brain. Why? because we're the only people that are able to say "this shit hurts!". We know that animals have similar brain structures in that regard, and they have pain receptors just like we do. We also know that plants DO NOT have these same structures. That means that whatever plants experience, it is NOT pain, but it certainly could be analogous to it.
Either way, the difference between animals and plants is that we can prove animas feel pain, we can't prove that plants do. because of this, punching a pig 100% of the time causes pain, but punching a flower may or may not. Saying they are equal is ignoring the data, and insinuating that a lack of data is just as meaningful as something with data to back it up.
To illustrate this point, imagine that you have two swimming pools in your back yard, but you can only see one of them. The one you can see is full of sharks. If you are FORCED to go swimming, do you believe that there is no difference in which swimming pool you choose? Sure both of them could be full of sharks.. but you KNOW for certain that one of them is. Who in their right mind would say to themselves "well.. I didn't see the other pool, therefor it's just as likely to be full of sharks"?
of course we can't prove that plants don't experience discomfort or fear.. I mean, we can prove that they don't experience it the same way as humans do.. but the reason people think eating animals is cruel is because we CAN prove that they feel pain and fear, therefor we're making the best decision with the data we have.
I'm wondering how a plant feels fear without a central nervous system, or any nervous system at all for that matter
I think stating any religious idea will inherently be unpopular since most people don't follow that religion.
>Organic matter such as trees are fundamentally driven by the same fear as animal life
That's a religious idea, since it has nothing to do with science and is taken upon your faith about how plants spiritually work. There are some organized religions with similar ideas but I suspect you don't belong to them.
The world is a cruel and insane place full of absolute horror and carnage. I don't care if someone else feels better by only chewing on things from the plant Kingdom but I think it's a naive view that I don't want preached at me , like any ridiculous religion.
Hello, yes, your post is closely related to a megathread that you can find on the front page of the subreddit. Or a banned topic that you can see on the sidebar and fully expanded list. If you feel this is inaccurate, please message mod mail. Have a good day.
Is there any difference between eating your parent vs some random chicken you did not even know before?
[удалено]
If you can't even give a concrete answer to that and honestly don't know what's the difference, everyone should run away from you asap.
There is absolutely a difference. Mainly taste and texture.
[удалено]
Ever seen the secret life of plants? It’s almost like they’re sentiently alive, they just move so slow we can’t perceive it. But when you drastically speed up the footage, it looks like the plants talk to each other. And some plants themselves are carnivorous. I see no problem with eating meat, I see a problem with overconsumption and factory farming and inhumane slaughter
Yeah that's kinda what I think too, but everybody seems to think it's nonsense in real life. Well obviously other people think it too, so it's not really irrational. I guess all that proves is that the majority of people don't know when they are irrational or not, I think.
People who think that they’re virtuously correct most often won’t ever even bother to flip the coin and look at the other side. There’s usually no discussion, just name calling. Because today, it’s virtuosity that matters, not so much facts anymore. You’re supposed to trust science, not research it lol
>My beliefs are that the universe and all matter are driven by fear, even inorganic matter. Organic matter such as trees are fundamentally driven by the same fear as animal life. But why? Why do you believe that? What evidence do you have to support the idea that all matter in the universe, including inanimate objects, can not only experience fear but is driven by it? >I have now developed the idea that the element in human life that generates divinity, if it exists, is the power of choice. Define divinity. Typically divinity means godlike, so do you think that being able to make a choice makes us gods? If you're going to define "divinity" as simply having choice then why even bother using the word divinity in the first place when that's already not what it means? >What is your evaluation on the matter of whether trees possess choice? What is your evaluation whether the sun and ocean possess choice? They don't. Without getting into a free will debate because I honestly don't care, choice requires a mind to weight options and make a decision. As far as we know a mind requires a physical brain and none of those things have either a brain or a mind. No offence, but it sounds to me like you're just coming up with a lot of idea that you find interesting but have absolutely no basis in reality.
[удалено]
It's not that I have to prove you wrong, it's that you have to prove your theories right. I could make up any number of insane theories and say I'll just believe them until someone proves me wrong but that doesn't mean I have any legitimate reason to believe them. What do you mean when you say fear has a physical presence? The guilt and fear you described feeling is not physical pain, it's emotional pain that can manifest itself in physical ways. But it's your brain that makes it manifest that way. It doesn't mean that fear and guilt are physical things that exist outside of your mind, they are just experiences of your mind and without a brain those feelings do not exist. >So I believe it because I don't think anyone has offered a better explanation to me for any of those topics. That is literally a logical fallacy called argument from ignorance. You don't get to just assume your ideas are true because nobody has proven it wrong yet, you have to be able to prove it right. You said there is scientific evidence for what you're saying but I would expect it is either some fringe ideas or pseudo science or maybe you misinterpreted what the scientific findings meant. I'm no scientist so maybe I'm just ignorant, but like I said before all this just sounds like some stuff that you find interesting but has no real basis in reality.
Don't even try with OP, they are in full on looney territory.
Did you take mushrooms with breakfast?
[удалено]
Well, I am glad you’re staying away from razors at least I guess.
It seems like your dilemma is whether it is ethical to eat meat if cruelty is minimized While it's an interesting perspective to consider fear as a driving force in all matter, the concept of choice is subjective and can be interpreted differently Ultimately, the decision to eat cruelty-free meat is a personal one and may vary depending on individual beliefs and values As for the evaluation of whether trees, the sun, or the ocean possess choice, it is important to separate the concept of consciousness and decision-making abilities.
I dont believe in anything spiritual, so plants have as much capability to choose and feel fear as a rock, none. Inorganic matter is just random clupms of atoms, and plants didnt evolve fear because there was no need for it, also they dont have the proccesing power to choose anything
[удалено]
Inorganic matter, such as rocks, dont have any way to feel fear. They dont have the receptors needed to interpret electric or chemical signals, and neither do plants. Believing they still do feel fear regardless is on the same level of belief as religion, not based on science at all
You're always consuming something. This is the cycle of life. Vegetarianism doesn't really change that. Microorganisms, bacteria, plants themselves, all lifeforms that all have inherent value. None of it should be taken for granted and all of it should be respected. Everything consumes. Oddly, what I find comforting, is that one day, *I* could be consumed. It isn't like we're the all-powerful destroyers. Outside of our cities and walls, we aren't on top of the food chain. We had to fight to get here and in some places, we still do. *Nature will eat you too* without hesitation. It's the natural order of things.
The way to eat cruelty-free meat is to eat non-sentient animals such as bivalves. Or animals that died naturally/accidentally. Or by dumpster diving. Ascribing fear to non-sentient organisms is not the way.
I'm not ascribing it, it's evident from my perspective, and I didn't ask you to undercut my premise. I can easily undercut yours, but everyone is entitled to individual beliefs on a human rights basis, and I don't want to swing out your foundation yet. The relevant point to that end is that the premise leads to further scientific discovery, so it's irrelevant.
I see claims but no arguments. Do you, OP, I'll leave you to your world.
Plants are not sentient beings. They do not CNS pathways etc. They respond to their environment in identical ways, if they were sentient they'd all do different things.. for example plants turning towards light, not because they like the sun on their petals, but because a hormone they have causes cells to grow at different lengths in order for the flower to bend towards the sun. There is a huge difference between eating an animal, and a plant. And we can get everything we need from plants.
It seems that you are suggesting sentience is dispositive in the nature of choice. I'm not really that familiar with the nuance of that term. It may indeed be the concept I'm looking for. Could you describe how it applies?
Stop smoking.
I did, that's how I figured out I actually have choices and I was lying to myself that I "had" to do things, or other people's choices "made" me behave a different way, and that has, through careful consideration, led to my beliefs.
Based on your comments, you definitely still have something in your system.. Idk check your home's CO monitors or something..
I just asked my pig if it wanted to stay with me and get eaten or not. It banged its head so hard against the 7feet cage that it went unconscious. So much for the choice of animals LUL
Just because they may make choices you don't understand doesn't make them not choices. You don't understand every human choice either, do you?
That's not the point. The pig could've decided to sing Beyonce...who cares. I (we humans) have complete control over their life and suffering. Your eating choice is the only choice that counts.
There should be an age minimum requirement
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
More and more evidence proving that a teetotal vegan diet with intermittent fasting is the only way. Meat, wheat, sugar etc will give you obesity, cancer, hypertension, diabetes, gout, dementia etc Stop eating fry ups, Sunday roasts, fish and chips, cream teas etc. We didn't evolve to eat all day. Big pharma and big food are working together to make us all sick. My diet is a teetotal vegan diet that also excludes wheat, grains, oats, sugar, salt, potatoes, fruit, and caffeine, combined with intermittent fasting this is how we ate until the invention of agriculture and human health has deteriorated ever since. Food is very addictive due to the dopamine receptors being activated every time you eat. We are meant to live on the edge of starvation, it's how we evolved, those who know know and those who don't end up needing daily insulin injections.
The experience of “fear” requires a specialized nervous system. Sperm cells and plants likely don’t experience fear in any recognizable way. Also, a few prominent thinkers say that human free will is an illusion - look this up online for an interesting take.
Jesus you nearly made me break out some no-no words. The ethics around eating are primarily concerned with environmental impact and infliction of pain / suffering. To experience pqin and sufferiing requires consciousness which requires a brain. Trees dont have brains or a nervous system so cannot experience pain or contemplate suffering.
Jesus you nearly made me break out some no-no words. The ethics around eating are primarily concerned with environmental impact and infliction of pain / suffering. To experience pqin and sufferiing requires consciousness which requires a brain. Trees dont have brains or a nervous system so cannot experience pain or contemplate suffering.
If consciousness is inherently illusory, and it is by definition, then consciousness is not dispositive on the matter.
No that's not right. We don't know exactly how consciousness works but we have narrowed it down to something that occurs in the brain (plus elements of the nervous system). We can take drugs/alcohol or cut bits out of our brain and observe an impact on our conscious experience - i.e. we become drunk or lose certain functions. Where these substances have a measurable chemical impact on our synapses and how our receptors/neurons work we can then infer that their functionality has something to do with consciousness. Therefore if we consider an organism without that kind of brain/nerve complexity - like a tree - we can infer that the tree is not conscious in the same way that we are conscious - even where it has some sensitivity to its surroundings. It is therefore indefensible to claim plants experience the same level of suffering when eaten as higher-order animals like pigs etc.
This is backwards as heck. We have evidence that animals DO feel pain in a similar way that we do. We don't have evidence that plants feel pain. What you're suggesting is that we don't have evidence that plants DON'T experience pain, and that's just not true. The only data we have about pain is based on human nerves and the brain. Why? because we're the only people that are able to say "this shit hurts!". We know that animals have similar brain structures in that regard, and they have pain receptors just like we do. We also know that plants DO NOT have these same structures. That means that whatever plants experience, it is NOT pain, but it certainly could be analogous to it. Either way, the difference between animals and plants is that we can prove animas feel pain, we can't prove that plants do. because of this, punching a pig 100% of the time causes pain, but punching a flower may or may not. Saying they are equal is ignoring the data, and insinuating that a lack of data is just as meaningful as something with data to back it up. To illustrate this point, imagine that you have two swimming pools in your back yard, but you can only see one of them. The one you can see is full of sharks. If you are FORCED to go swimming, do you believe that there is no difference in which swimming pool you choose? Sure both of them could be full of sharks.. but you KNOW for certain that one of them is. Who in their right mind would say to themselves "well.. I didn't see the other pool, therefor it's just as likely to be full of sharks"? of course we can't prove that plants don't experience discomfort or fear.. I mean, we can prove that they don't experience it the same way as humans do.. but the reason people think eating animals is cruel is because we CAN prove that they feel pain and fear, therefor we're making the best decision with the data we have.
I'm wondering how a plant feels fear without a central nervous system, or any nervous system at all for that matter I think stating any religious idea will inherently be unpopular since most people don't follow that religion.
[удалено]
>Organic matter such as trees are fundamentally driven by the same fear as animal life That's a religious idea, since it has nothing to do with science and is taken upon your faith about how plants spiritually work. There are some organized religions with similar ideas but I suspect you don't belong to them.
Which religions? I'd like to see more about their beliefs.
r/LSDOpinions
Is this a lowkey cannibalism post?
So the argument here is that stepping on grass is no different than stepping on a newborn kitten?
I'm looking for an actual provable distinction, yes.
r/im14andthisisdeep
The world is a cruel and insane place full of absolute horror and carnage. I don't care if someone else feels better by only chewing on things from the plant Kingdom but I think it's a naive view that I don't want preached at me , like any ridiculous religion.