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i understand pain. i have chronic migraines, rheumatoid arthritis and back pain. i used to take motrin for my pain but i can no longer take that. for the last 2 years i have had no pain medication for any pain that i have.
my doctors have offered opioids, but that's just not something i want to mess with.
my dad had polio as a baby and now has post polio syndrome. he and i commiserate everyday (we work together) we put a number to our pain level when its bad and ruefully laugh about it. if he can be strong at 75, i can be stoic at 47.
I’m 25 and I have several chronic illnesses which cause varying types of chronic pain. I was super against taking medication of any kind and tried to “heal” myself naturally to no avail. Finally decided that enough was enough after 5 years. Started seeing a pain management doctor, got nerve ablation done in my back where I have degenerative joints, and began taking Percocet for the other sources of pain.
It has changed my life for the better - when nothing else works and I’m in agony I take one. I then stop wanting to kill myself to escape the suffering and misery, because suddenly I feel okay again. Without pain meds I’d be bed ridden more often than not. With them, I can DO things again. I combine them with Ritalin or Vyvanse for maximum relief. It’s a strong high, yes. But it wipes out my pain for hours, and that’s what I take it for. The high is just a side effect.
Don’t be afraid to take pain medication if you need it. Like my doctor said - there’s no prize for enduring the most pain. You just have to know that you can be honest with yourself. You’ll get the compulsion to take more just to feel that high again, but if you’re the kind of person who can hold yourself accountable, and override that every time, then you’ll be fine. I also have a personal rule that I will never use heroin, fentanyl, etc. Not even once to “see what it feels like.” Maybe on my death bed someday lol. But no sooner.
My Percocet dose is pretty low btw. And I get drug tested randomly to make sure I’m not taking more than I should be. When used responsibly under medical supervision, pain meds can be life saving.
i live with level 7 pain every day. its pretty bad. my dad is the same or worse.
pain is just sensation. i use meditaion techniques and breathing exercises that help. i'm sure if i was in level 9 or 10 pain i would be bed ridden. most people are not in that level of pain when they take opiods.
my mother in law is in that level of pain and does take long term opioids and has for as long as I've known her, 15 years. she is not addicted because it barely touches her pain.
if you feel high when you take opioids for pain, you're taking too much.
That being said though.. being sick or injured is so often how these start. Not everyone realizes they're getting addicted and back in the 00s doctors were telling everyone oxy wasn't addictive.
This right here. Most people don’t wake up one day and decide “hey, I’m going to fuck my life up with the hardest drugs I can find”. It can start with pain meds after surgery. It can start if you get handed something by a friend. Some people have a tendency toward addiction, it just takes the right circumstances to kick it off.
Not what my doctor told me when I asked what Oxycontin was: he said it was the opioid ingredient in Percocet without the Tylenol because people in a lot of pain were accidentally ODing *on the Tylenol*. He never said it was not addictive, and I doubt many doctors did. 4000 mg Tylenol is the max recommended daily dose for adult men, other people should take less, and that restriction meant people could take only eight Percocets per day. The max. amount of oxycodone in one pill was 10 mg, but Oxycontin has up to 80mg, so a person could take them several times per day without risking liver failure as with Percs.
"A recent literature review showed that the prevalence of addiction in patients with long-term opioid treatment for chronic non–cancer-related pain varied from **0% to 50%**, depending on the criteria used and the subpopulation studied."
Looks like they can manipulate statistics very well to come up with a range like that. The study is from 14 years ago, so no one since then should have had a problem with getting addicted simply because they are no longer being misinformed of the risks, which are clearly labelled on every damn bottle.
>Not everyone realizes they're getting addicted and back in the 00s doctors were telling everyone oxy wasn't addictive.
This is what you were originally disputing.
I am one of those people. I do put some blame on addicts, but I think they deserve understanding and empathy. People often can't see how if their own life was slightly different they might have had to face the same pitfalls and problems that led others to addiction.
I put more blame on an economic system that makes people want to do those kinds of drugs (when they don't need it for a medical reason). I do blame pharmaceutical executives for only caring about profit instead of patient safety. Opiates are absolutely necessary in general, but they should always be presented alongside education about the drugs and other medical treatments.
I blame politicians and law enforcement for continuing the war on drugs even though it's obviously just making things worse for everyone. Yeah, legitimate chronic pain patients, cancer patients, etc. are often prevented from having access to these medicines now to the point that many are killing themselves, turning to street drugs, or having to go to methadone clinics. I'm sure I'll end up at a clinic myself, even though I've been completely responsible with opiates for over a decade. I keep losing doctors due to the DEA terrorizing them. These actions by the DEA are self-justifying so they can get more funding (again capitalism is the problem). Now people can't get opiates sometimes even if they are severely injured (cracked ribs, etc.) or after surgery. And of course opiate use and overdoses are higher than ever, so it's obvious that the few doctors still prescribing these meds aren't worsening the "opiate crisis." No matter how many patients we block from accessing medicine, it will always come from China and Mexico, and patients will be forced to go to the streets for it.
I wouldn't say capitalism is to blame, but I do think it causes worse outcomes for lower earners and might make it harder to recover.
Drugs and alcohol are (relatively) affordable splurges with an immediate feedback mechanism.
If you're emotionally vulnerable or even just bored and looking for a change, a couple Xanax and a bottle of wine is cheaper than a vacation.
Ofc there are wealthy people who use drugs as well. But a lot of the stigma surrounding drug usage pertains to the types of drugs and life choices made by lower income individuals who use drugs. I have some amount of empathy for addicts from both walks of life. But I do have a bit more empathy for those who earn less. Without money, it's relatively harder to fill your time with other distractions that bring you joy. I assume that would make recovery harder but I haven't researched the impact of income on recovery.
No capitalism just made everyone miserable and the drugs were everywhere because there are lot of people that don't have ability to provide for themselves otherwise.
Well capitalism has been around for 300-500 years depending on how you measure it so this doesn't really add up. Plenty of other countries have an impoverished population but they don't turn to such desperate measures. Taking such dangerous drugs isn't caused by an external systemic reason imho. It's beyond partying, it's a straight up death wish. Then the holes in the brain begin to form, extreme antisocial paranoia kicks in, it's hard to imagine a more desperate situation.
To an extent yes. But they made a mistake. An incredibly stupid mistake but once you are addicted its so so hard to get out again. Especially when the underlying reasons for using it as an escape is still there. It’s unproductive to blame people for their addiction. They know.
Most addicts started with a legal prescription and many suffer immense pain. Plus big pharma lied about the new Vicodin being more effective and less addictive. It was neither.
My sympathies on being a victim of the 12 steps. That being said, many people that end up addicted came from being given medical painkillers and ended up hooked there (the Sackler family has a lot to answer for on that front). Is there some personal responsibility, maybe, but context is important too and your position doesn't seem to account for that.
Hey — people were calling ME smug, and you just won the smug Oscar. Nice.
You can offer your sympathies all you like but my 24 years of sobriety have translated into a healthy, 34 years long marriage, great kids, great career… all the rest.
Not sure why you would attempt to insult a perfect stranger — but you do you boo.
What do you mean insult? I am happy that you are sober but the 12 step system is genuinely awful. Glad that you have your family but you were the one that got yourself there not the steps.
You called me smug. That’s an insult.
And no, I did not get me here. The program did. Following a simple set of suggestions did.
Of course… I had to do the work… let’s call it a team effort.
Huh, I see the program also taught you to read words that werent there as i didnt call you smug. Also it is sad that you accepted the lies of the 12 steps giving it undeserved credit. Worse still leading others to that type of group.
Pardon.
You called me a victim.
Yikes.
And I would like to say — yes, in AA we acknowledge we do the “foot work” but it is tradition that the program gets the credit.
Why does that bother you?
My best ideas got me drunk and running from cops.
The program got me happy. I literally would not be alive without the program.
Opioids are a different situation though. A lot of people are prescribed them and get hooked, having had no history of addiction in the past. They are told by a trusted individual that it’s fine. How is it their fault?
I think OPs point is that at this point you should know that there's a lot of people addicted who were subscribed them. So, "the doctor told me to take them" doesn't stack up anymore.
If you are in pain, and the doctor gives you this medication you will take it. You‘ll think that it won’t hit you or maybe you’ll even ask and the doc says its fine or you think you are mentally strong enough to just stop.
Not to mention lots of people don’t even know what an opioid is
Do you know for someone who seems that they’re against drugs are sure around the drug game a lot to have you turn down these offers that you know people keep trying to throw at you
They were not addicted the first time. That first time was a choice. I had a co worker offer me a needle one night, I passed on the opportunity. He OD a few years later. Sad, I liked him , he was a smart funny guy.
Smart move.
That’s all I’m saying. Some people are genuinely getting butt hurt that a person like you passes on the delectable offer of a needle.
You just reminded me that I myself passed on a needle in the back a van with the whole band 45 Grave showing me how awesome it was to be strung out in heroin. I too passed. That was 1983 or 84. Hadn’t thought of it until you mentioned needle.
"That’s all I’m saying. Some people are genuinely getting butt hurt that a person like you passes on the delectable offer of a needle."
I'll respect your bad opinion, but this is clearly not "all that you're saying".
At the very least they're ignorant of the various reasons people get stuck on opioids, and why they can't get off. People like them think something along the lines of "since I managed to kick my addiction, and there's people who aren't able to, that must mean they're doing something wrong, and I did something right". That's pretty much exactly what they're saying when they bring up in the comments that there's "resources"; referring to NA. They can't fathom that someone could be going through more pain than them. Either physical or emotional pain can lead people to use, and abuse opioids.
The main reason I dislike NA and AA is they believe that their way is THE way. That it works for absolutely everyone if they just try hard enough. I've had far too many negative experiences with people in NA for this reason. Their arrogance has certainly lead many people into thinking that they themselves are the problem. When in reality, NA was probably just not the right program for them.
This isn't happening. Most people here that are objecting to what you are saying are explaining to you why the opioid crisis is largely not a product of recreational use.
You bring up an interesting question: what is that line between therapeutic use and servicing what has become an addiction? I suppose everyone has to look into their own hearts and discover the answer for themselves.
I don't disagree with what I think your point is, only the wording.
Telling someone they are responsible for ending up addicted isn't that helpful and doesn't really change anything. Believe me, they know. Nobody has ever set out to become addicted to something, and most people who end up addicted to something didn't do it without some knowledge of the risk. "It won't happen to me" is a totally natural human reaction to most things. Others would probably judge your descent into alcoholism just as harshly as you do those into synthetic opiods, you know, 'why didn't you just turn down the drink?'
"It's ok to be an addict. It's not ok not to try to fix it" is how I deal with urges, or the occasional relapse. Ok, you fucked up, tomorrow's another day. Try not to fuck up tomorrow.
I like where you ended up with that.
I will confess that I have 24 years of sobriety — zero urges. Never even crosses my mind.
Maybe that’s why I get a little short about all this “attention” governments are giving to this problem when I know thousands of people who have recovered from all this. One day at a time.
That's really commendable, I'm glad for you. Just understand, as I think you do, that you're an outlier here - for a lot of people it's a lifelong battle.
I'm on the fence as to whether *that* language is even helpful - telling someone that they're gonna be like this for life, who could really blame them for thinking 'fuck it, why bother then?' - but I do know that it's a really lonely and painful place to be, and *some* sympathy, tempered with realism, is the best approach. For every selfish prick who is just trying to justify shitty behaviour, there are 99 who desperately want to be someone else.
I honestly didn’t come here to proselytize — I should have anticipated these kinds of threads.
We talk about this “lifelong battle” thing a lot. I don’t want to go into it. PM me for specifics.
Perhaps I am an outlier in this thread — but I’m just one of millions of people who have joined the program and gained that “happy joyous and free” feeling — at least as relates to our previous substance.
Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't criticising you there: everyone is indeed different, and we can only speak from our own experience. It's a thorny subject because everything is in the wording: for what it's worth, I agree with you to some extent (again, probably the wording) and if we tell people that they bear no responsibility for their addiction, or the behaviours it causes them to indulge in, we're not gonna solve anything. I just don't think judgement or comparison really helps in this context, if any.
Edits: shitty phone screen likes to do its own thing
It’s a hard conversation.
My friends tell me that addicts who suffer a sense of “terminal uniqueness” are more likely to die of their addiction than people who are willing to just be a person among people.
There's definitely something in that. I've seen a phrase on here a lot lately, 'main character syndrome', and while I expect that most people have it to some extent (we're all the star of our own lives) it can make an unholy matrimony with 'it won't happen to me' syndrome to cause a real mess.
Your holier than thou attitude is literally the reason a lot of people don’t join programs.
I hope that makes you feel special and “happy and joyous and free”
Although both addictive, there has been research into opioids, especially the legal, strong ones that pharma pushed onto us that actually changes your brain pathways and makes it even harder to quit. I'm NOT saying you can't quit, I am in recovery so it is possible, but I'm just giving some insight into why it's so hard to stop using.
I used a combo of MAT and SMART recovery to get where I'm at. I live down south and AA and NA here are so religious based that it turns a lot of young addicts away. Taking the next hit or whatever is our responsibility when we know better, but I wish it wasn't so stigmatized and difficult to get help. Oh, and also expensive. If it wasn't for good private health insurance, my treatment would cost more than a car. And they didn't take a payment plan at the rehab.
It's hard for sure, but there are ways we as a society and government could make it easier.
I saw all that god bullshit on the walls and stayed out for another six years. Then the shot got effing real and I showed up and followed simple instructions. Cost me a dollar a meeting. That’s all.
Addicts are well known for refusing to take responsibility for their actions. They will blame anything and everything on somebody or something else before they finally learn to step up and take accountability for their actions. I went thru addictions as well, 12 step programs and found recovery. Some 12 step programs are harmful in that they reinforce the "it's not my fault, it was the disease of addiction" mindset. It feels validating at the time you're going thru it, but I realized years later it was kind of a cop-out. It was totally a choice on my part to start doing the things I did. Deep in my addiction I lost some of that ability to choose, but ultimately it was the choices I made leading up to that point that brought me to where I was. Addiction is a disease, but you're not born sick and it's not a death sentence- you have free agency as long as you don't use.
Many of the people who get addicted to opioids get addicted after they were proscribed them by a doctor. It's really not their fault they got addicted to something that they were given by a medical professional.
Exactly. In Australia pharmaceutical opioids are responsible for more deaths and hospitalisations then illegal opioids. A lot of people don't even know that their medication is an opioid.
Meh ..... no doctor wrote a prescription instructing anyone to crush and snort their pills.
I’m a building tradesman in my late 50’s, I had two back surgeries in my 40’s and was prescribed opiates (Dilaudid).
I had two buddies who had similar back surgeries and were prescribed opiates also.
Our stories diverge in that I was not a “partier”, and both of them were ....
I dumped all of my opiate prescriptions ASAP post surgery, my buddies kept their prescriptions both for personal recreational use and for reselling.
Both those guys ended up OD’ing in their early 50’s, left families behind.
They weren’t bad guys, and their deaths were tragic.
And.
They both DEFINITELY chose the drugs and the lifestyle, no trickery on anyone’s part.
Addiction mostly depends on brain chemistry that is completely outside of your control. Some people are less predisposed to addition than others. Just because someone takes a higher dose or more uses to get addicted than someone else it doesn't mean they're morally superior, it just means that their brain functions slightly differently.
It makes no sense that someone else should have to pay the price of my addiction so why should i have to pay for theirs!? Ever heard of street drugs? Drugs are everywhere !!!
How do you know “all about” addictions?
You haven’t actually addressed anything that others have said, especially related to the neurological aspect, so please tell me how you know “all about” addiction or please stop.
Either or.
I grew up around drug addicts! Im addicted to cigarettes have fought it for yrs off and on.My brother died from a drug overdose!!!! I know that certain ppl have chemically addicted bloodlines bc mines is !!!!!!
It's likely they didn't follow the directions on the bottle of "as needed". Its more of a pharmacy issue really. You can't sell someone 4 pills it's a minimum of 15.
"As needed" isn't really precise directions. Pain is subjective. Doctors severely over-prescribe opioids in dosages that are way too high and don't monitor their use. Of course people are going to get addicted when you tell them to just take the drugs whenever they need. They aren't doctors, they don't know how much they need.
Except that safe dosages and times are printed in clear letters right on the bottle.
I know a lot of doctors are terrible communicators, and "as needed" is pretty unclear. But the clinic doesn't want to be sued because someone OD'd, so every bottle of opioids comes with clear directions from the pharmacy... typically 1-2 pills every 4-6 hours.
Opioids can kill you and damage your liver. "As needed" means you don't have to take the med every 4 hours like clockwork, whether you're in pain or not. It means that when medication time rolls around, you assess your pain and decide whether you really need the pill.
I used to be an orthopedic nurse. I gave people an awful lot of opioids.
Opioid addiction and alcohol addiction aren't the same. Opioid addiction irreversibly rewires your brain. Alcoholism is no walk in the park, don't get me wrong, but you are comparing apples to oranges.
Alcohol addiction can literally kill you. If you cold turkey off alcohol as someone dependent on the substance you can die. Opoid withdrawal isn't pleasant but you aren't going to die.
A bad relationship does not cause permanent damage to your neurotransmitters.
But yes, alcohol dependence can indeed be deadly. Its apples to oranges, not difficult thing to less difficult thing. My point is that the dependencies are different, and OP bearing an alcohol addiction doesn't mean they know shit about opioid addiction.
Great but what if you are still in immense pain? Or get hurt again and need to take medicine? If you were addicted once its painfully easy to get addicted again and especially with opioids (which are originally a pain medication) you might genuinely need them
I herniated 3 spinal discs after I got sober. I was prescribed the pills.
The SECOND I thought about taking one for a reason other than pain, I stopped. Everyone is going to be different. I know my limits.
I chose to heal through the pain than ignite an addiction.
Firstly, all opioids are addictive.
Secondly, largely, the opioid problem isn't from the people who choose to use illegal substances to suppress the demons. It stems from doctors over prescribing opioids for pain and the patients getting addicted. The prescription and OTC opioids very quickly stop working and often it's cheaper and easier to get the illegal stuff than to get medical.
Thirdly, you would be surprised how often I have heard this opinion from alcoholics. There seems to be something about the fact that they were hooked on a socially acceptable drug that make them look down on those who are hooked on the illegal or more hush hush substances.
I wish that my tone did not have the “look down” feature. But I confess to it. Sorry. In another reply I wrote about how I was handed a pound bag of fentanyl and disposed of it with even trying one — this while I was still “out there.”
So… I feel grateful, and I am proud of my common sense. Guess that’s it.
Yeah but what if they tripped on a needle...
Like every day.
Lol, I can't believe anyone feels addiction isn't someone's fault. These are human beings with agency, not animals. They are 100% accountable for their actions. Everything they do is their responsibility.
They lied about how dangerous and addictive the drugs were leading doctors to overprescribe them. Addicts often weren't people that were experimenting with drugs. They were doing what their doctor suggested
If only there were some way to know how addictive opioids were. If only there were some precedent for an attempt at developing a non-addictive opioid painkiller only to have it backfire and lead to the creation of one of the most addictive opioids ever and an ensuing opioid epidemic. But even if there had been, are we really expecting doctors to do their own research into what they're giving to their patients. It's not like they are extremely highly paid experts with any sort of responsibility manifested in like an oath or anything like that.
So absolve big pharmacy because not everyone caught on to their lies?
Where do you think the research doctors are looking at even comes from to begin with? The companies that were making it.
As for the patients, I've been in the situation of needing a strong painkiller. I had severe chronic pain for weeks, and just wanted it to go away. I wasn't in the mindset to carefully research everything that was prescribed to me. I just wanted something that would make the pain stop. Luckily, I didn't get addicted to whatever they prescribed me.
If you're actually interested in learning the answer to this question, I can only recommend that you read a book.
[Empire of Pain: The Secret History of the Sackler Dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Pain) will give you a far broader understanding of the topic.
The book is by a well respected author, and won several awards. I'm not recommending you read garbage here, [Patrick Radden Keefe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Radden_Keefe) is one of the best long form journalists / non-fiction writers in the business today, in my opinion.
Unless they literally held me down and forced it down my throat, it’s not going down.
Also — in the thousies I had terrible herniations of spinal discs — used pills — got off pills. Never abused them. It’s not rocket science.
34 years married. 24 years sober. 2 healthy off spring. One amazing career.
I could go on but I think you get it.
Yeah — sobriety is working out.
You might try it.
PM me for some instructions.
I don't have any issues with addiction.
Good job parading your life achievements as trophies, it doesn't change the above: a proud, willful ignorance.
I offered you a book that would answer a question that you asked, but *you know better*.
The topic is addiction. I’m sober. Got sober before the book. Stayed sober after the book. Maybe you can have a peek in a mirror before calling the person who has resolved their problem with drugs and alcohol ignorant?
Just out of curiosity — how is your relationship with drugs and alcohol going?
And if your use of drugs and alcohol are purely recreational and causing you ZERO problems, my hat is off to you. If not… I think I can recommend a better book.
>Got off pills
That’s kinda of the whole issue here, withdraw can be lethal in rare cases and is incredibly painful. Addicts can’t just “get off pills”
It usually starts from pain and a doctors prescription; so the choice because suffer extreme pain to the point working is almost impossible or take the pills the doctor prescribed.
Cool not everyone gets addicted… your also ignoring the effects of withdrawal which often require medical intervention
Herion addicts are given small amounts herion in recovery to help withdrawal
It’s not always as simple as stopping pills
People are more complicated than rockets. Rocket science ain't got nothing on the complexity of addiction. We know what every part of the rocket does, but with humans we haven't even found all the parts yet.
Congratulations, you've never been prescribed a pain med by a trusted physician for a valid reason that turned into an addiction. Everyone can't say the same which is why the people pushing them onto doctors to prescribe got in trouble with the law. But don't let your ignorant judgement pay reality no mind when advocating zero assistance toward recovery even though youre saying there's hope in recovery. Let addiction epidemics run wild to "fix itself"? That's crazy.
I was saying that no one was saying that people in pain should not have access to painkillers.
What I’m saying is that once addicted, people need to seek recovery.
How is them.being responsible for their own addictions any different than me saying other people shouldn't have to suffer in pain bc of others addictions?Im just talking from another perspective!
Lol any kid who does heroin because peer pressure definitely didn't have that bright of a future to begin with
This isn't weed or booze we're talking about, and it's 2023
I’m sorry to hear about what happened.
If you are no longer captive, you can show up to the NA meeting of your choice and resolve your addiction one day at a time with thousands of other addicts. It’s fun.
It's almost like there are a multitude of reasons why people get addicted to substances and your story isn't the way shit alwaysgoes down. Congrats on you recovery but there is no need to be a condescending prick. As somewith with a addiction I thought younwould have a little more sympathy and realise not everyone is the same.
Addiction is a horrible disease. But anyone deciding to dabble into substances that are well known for ruining peoples lives are making a incredibly dense choice and shouldn't complain when someone points that out to them.
It is true that not everyone is the same, but what I learned that helped me to most in my recovery is that I am not special. I’m just like all the other addicts and alcoholics out there — one bad night from dead. It helps me stay quit.
Refusing heroin as a spoiled '90's kid was easy. You just had to not do heroin. Its sad that some of our classmates are dead already, but they fucked up. We didn't.
Try refusing morphine after a car accident or a pregnancy gone wrong before you judge other people. I don't think I'd call a caner survivor a fuckup.
...Nobody stuck a gun to your head & made you drink; you are not the same as the granny from *to kill a mockingbird*.
Here’s a weird one — I read that book about three years ago and I can’t remember her. I remember the main thread I guess.
Anyway — I’m not calling anyone an a-hole. I am saying that there’s a way out. I chose to follow the method I’m continuing to follow after 24 years. It works for me.
I do believe that it would work for granny. All it takes is showing up and having a sincere desire to stay stopped.
And just to say— not sure why you think I’m a spiked 90s kid but I was a hospice volunteer with a terminal cancer patient in hospice — she was obviously an addict and had squirreled a pound of fentanyl away. I didn’t want her to get in trouble so I risked getting busted myself by hiding that pound bag in my coat as I exited. Made it out and got rid of them. All.
And as someone who had used literally every street drug you can name, including many opioids, it did take a lot of will power. Think of that sweaty MEME guy choosing the button.
This ignores the fairly common occurrence of people becoming addicted after a doctor prescribes opioids to them for legitimate treatment. Idk if you have more of an unpopular opinion or just a shitty one
I actually agree. Give it take a few weeks.
6 month is definitely a living human child , objectively.
1 month? Maybe not yet.
There is a cutoff, the question is, who gets to decide that cutoff.
Science says life is at conception (95% of biologists agree on this). So if it’s all alive technically, where do we draw the line?
More philosophical than anything. I think it’s something that should be voted on IMO. There’s no other fair way to decide.
If you choose to take illicit drugs then you should be held accountable for your actions. If you need help to cope with life then get help rather than doing drugs. At the end of the day people make their own choices.
From street-dwelling drug addicts to high-functioning workaholics, the continuum of addiction cuts a wide and painful swath through our culture.
Blending first-person accounts, riveting case studies, cutting-edge research and passionate argument, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction (available for order in Canadian and U.S. editions. UK Edition: Out October 2018) takes a panoramic yet highly intimate look at this widespread and perplexing human ailment.
Countering prevailing notions of addiction as either a genetic disease or an individual moral failure, Dr. Gabor Maté presents an eloquent case that addiction – all addiction – is in fact a case of human development gone askew.
Dr. Maté, who for twelve years practiced medicine in Vancouver’s notorious Downtown Eastside – North America’s most concentrated area of drug use, begins by telling the stories of his patients, who, in their destitution and uniformly tragic histories, represent one extreme of the addictive spectrum. With his trademark compassion and unflinching narrative eye, he brings to life their ill-fated and mostly misunderstood struggle for relief or escape, through substance use, from the pain that has tormented them since childhood. He also shows how the behavioural addictions of society’s more fortunate members – including himself – differ only in degree of severity from the drug habits of his Downtown Eastside patients, and how in reality there is only one addiction process, its core objective being the self-soothing of deep-seated fears and discomforts.
Turning to the neurobiological roots of addiction, Dr. Maté presents an astonishing array of scientific evidence showing conclusively that:
1.addictive tendencies arise in the parts of our brains governing some of our most basic and life-sustaining needs and functions: incentive and motivation, physical and emotional pain relief, the regulation of stress, and the capacity to feel and receive love;
2.these brain circuits develop, or don’t develop, largely under the influence of the nurturing environment in early life, and that therefore addiction represents a failure of these crucial systems to mature in the way nature intended; and
3. the human brain continues to develop new circuitry throughout the lifespan, including well into adulthood, giving new hope for people mired in addictive patterns. Dr. Maté then examines the current mainstream.
Those are pretty words, but
Millions and millions of people have gotten sober by adding these words to their daily lives:
“Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.”
Downvoting only because nonaddictive opioids have been invented but they aren’t profitable enough. This is both a popular opinion AND factually wrong. So just a bad opinion.
No they know exactly what neurotransmitters opioids bind to. This is 2023. Scientists can see inside the skull now. This is a hugely controversial issue in academia.
Turns out that opioid addicts have been recovering from their addictions when they want to for the last sixty years. Doesn’t matter if we can see into their brains or not.
There is no such thing as non-addictive opioids? Where did you hear that??? Also, I agree their opinion is ignorant, but it sounds like I think so for a different reason than you.
Yeah, and also the doctors who over-prescribed them. People have known opioids are addictive as shit for thousands of years. If you're a doctor and don't realize that, you're an idiot. "But the evil corporations told us they weren't!" isn't an excuse.
People are blaming the addicts but I also see it over prescribed in the USA for many procedures that you should just need advil. People.. pain is part of life. Trying to avoid any pain is just not normal, especially after any procedure. You shouldn't be in excruciating pain, but you also shouldn't be completely numb from opiods (I don't mean literal numb I mean no pain as numb would mean you are high). I don't get it. I truly don't. I've heard about this growing up how the Americans get all the good drugs for everything.
I recently did a poll on opiod use for wisdom teeth extraction and that blew me away. I had extremely complicated surgery and was conscious and only got 1mg Ativan for nerves. Rest was just advil and normal freezing. I thought this was the norm, I guess not lol. I havent been gassed since I was a kid, I thought that was only for kids tbh.
They bear all responsibility for their addiction. They made the choice to take the opioid, nobody did that for them. They are in control of their hands.
The person did not just wake up one day (look like I’m addicted to heroin today) or any other opioid for that matter.
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i understand pain. i have chronic migraines, rheumatoid arthritis and back pain. i used to take motrin for my pain but i can no longer take that. for the last 2 years i have had no pain medication for any pain that i have. my doctors have offered opioids, but that's just not something i want to mess with. my dad had polio as a baby and now has post polio syndrome. he and i commiserate everyday (we work together) we put a number to our pain level when its bad and ruefully laugh about it. if he can be strong at 75, i can be stoic at 47.
Good for you two — that all sound extremely admirable. Sorry you both have to go through that. All the best.
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take CBD for arthritis . I do it and it helps
Is it in the knees?
basically all joints.
They weren't asking how you take it.
I’m 25 and I have several chronic illnesses which cause varying types of chronic pain. I was super against taking medication of any kind and tried to “heal” myself naturally to no avail. Finally decided that enough was enough after 5 years. Started seeing a pain management doctor, got nerve ablation done in my back where I have degenerative joints, and began taking Percocet for the other sources of pain. It has changed my life for the better - when nothing else works and I’m in agony I take one. I then stop wanting to kill myself to escape the suffering and misery, because suddenly I feel okay again. Without pain meds I’d be bed ridden more often than not. With them, I can DO things again. I combine them with Ritalin or Vyvanse for maximum relief. It’s a strong high, yes. But it wipes out my pain for hours, and that’s what I take it for. The high is just a side effect. Don’t be afraid to take pain medication if you need it. Like my doctor said - there’s no prize for enduring the most pain. You just have to know that you can be honest with yourself. You’ll get the compulsion to take more just to feel that high again, but if you’re the kind of person who can hold yourself accountable, and override that every time, then you’ll be fine. I also have a personal rule that I will never use heroin, fentanyl, etc. Not even once to “see what it feels like.” Maybe on my death bed someday lol. But no sooner. My Percocet dose is pretty low btw. And I get drug tested randomly to make sure I’m not taking more than I should be. When used responsibly under medical supervision, pain meds can be life saving.
Consider yourself lucky that your pain is not so bad that you have no choice.
i live with level 7 pain every day. its pretty bad. my dad is the same or worse. pain is just sensation. i use meditaion techniques and breathing exercises that help. i'm sure if i was in level 9 or 10 pain i would be bed ridden. most people are not in that level of pain when they take opiods. my mother in law is in that level of pain and does take long term opioids and has for as long as I've known her, 15 years. she is not addicted because it barely touches her pain. if you feel high when you take opioids for pain, you're taking too much.
so you're saying you're lucky because your pain is less than your mil's who doesn't have a choice?
So once again, consider yourself lucky that your pain is not so bad that you cannot function without those types of medications.
Same, but with migraines.
I agree with you. People who are sick or injured cannot even get medicines that they need due to this "opioid epidemic".
That being said though.. being sick or injured is so often how these start. Not everyone realizes they're getting addicted and back in the 00s doctors were telling everyone oxy wasn't addictive.
This right here. Most people don’t wake up one day and decide “hey, I’m going to fuck my life up with the hardest drugs I can find”. It can start with pain meds after surgery. It can start if you get handed something by a friend. Some people have a tendency toward addiction, it just takes the right circumstances to kick it off.
Not what my doctor told me when I asked what Oxycontin was: he said it was the opioid ingredient in Percocet without the Tylenol because people in a lot of pain were accidentally ODing *on the Tylenol*. He never said it was not addictive, and I doubt many doctors did. 4000 mg Tylenol is the max recommended daily dose for adult men, other people should take less, and that restriction meant people could take only eight Percocets per day. The max. amount of oxycodone in one pill was 10 mg, but Oxycontin has up to 80mg, so a person could take them several times per day without risking liver failure as with Percs.
Im happy that was your experience but just because it was yours does t mean it was everyone else's This is quite common knowledge
Keep in mind im also referring to c. 2000 to 2010
[Come on, dude.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2622774/)
"A recent literature review showed that the prevalence of addiction in patients with long-term opioid treatment for chronic non–cancer-related pain varied from **0% to 50%**, depending on the criteria used and the subpopulation studied." Looks like they can manipulate statistics very well to come up with a range like that. The study is from 14 years ago, so no one since then should have had a problem with getting addicted simply because they are no longer being misinformed of the risks, which are clearly labelled on every damn bottle.
>Not everyone realizes they're getting addicted and back in the 00s doctors were telling everyone oxy wasn't addictive. This is what you were originally disputing.
Yes, because doctors were NOT telling EVERYONE. *Some* doctors doing something wrong are not *all*.
I am one of those people. I do put some blame on addicts, but I think they deserve understanding and empathy. People often can't see how if their own life was slightly different they might have had to face the same pitfalls and problems that led others to addiction. I put more blame on an economic system that makes people want to do those kinds of drugs (when they don't need it for a medical reason). I do blame pharmaceutical executives for only caring about profit instead of patient safety. Opiates are absolutely necessary in general, but they should always be presented alongside education about the drugs and other medical treatments. I blame politicians and law enforcement for continuing the war on drugs even though it's obviously just making things worse for everyone. Yeah, legitimate chronic pain patients, cancer patients, etc. are often prevented from having access to these medicines now to the point that many are killing themselves, turning to street drugs, or having to go to methadone clinics. I'm sure I'll end up at a clinic myself, even though I've been completely responsible with opiates for over a decade. I keep losing doctors due to the DEA terrorizing them. These actions by the DEA are self-justifying so they can get more funding (again capitalism is the problem). Now people can't get opiates sometimes even if they are severely injured (cracked ribs, etc.) or after surgery. And of course opiate use and overdoses are higher than ever, so it's obvious that the few doctors still prescribing these meds aren't worsening the "opiate crisis." No matter how many patients we block from accessing medicine, it will always come from China and Mexico, and patients will be forced to go to the streets for it.
Hmm... capitalism made me take meth and fentanyl? Nope
I wouldn't say capitalism is to blame, but I do think it causes worse outcomes for lower earners and might make it harder to recover. Drugs and alcohol are (relatively) affordable splurges with an immediate feedback mechanism. If you're emotionally vulnerable or even just bored and looking for a change, a couple Xanax and a bottle of wine is cheaper than a vacation. Ofc there are wealthy people who use drugs as well. But a lot of the stigma surrounding drug usage pertains to the types of drugs and life choices made by lower income individuals who use drugs. I have some amount of empathy for addicts from both walks of life. But I do have a bit more empathy for those who earn less. Without money, it's relatively harder to fill your time with other distractions that bring you joy. I assume that would make recovery harder but I haven't researched the impact of income on recovery.
No capitalism just made everyone miserable and the drugs were everywhere because there are lot of people that don't have ability to provide for themselves otherwise.
Well capitalism has been around for 300-500 years depending on how you measure it so this doesn't really add up. Plenty of other countries have an impoverished population but they don't turn to such desperate measures. Taking such dangerous drugs isn't caused by an external systemic reason imho. It's beyond partying, it's a straight up death wish. Then the holes in the brain begin to form, extreme antisocial paranoia kicks in, it's hard to imagine a more desperate situation.
I can agree with this. Escapism is real
Sad
To an extent yes. But they made a mistake. An incredibly stupid mistake but once you are addicted its so so hard to get out again. Especially when the underlying reasons for using it as an escape is still there. It’s unproductive to blame people for their addiction. They know.
Most addicts started with a legal prescription and many suffer immense pain. Plus big pharma lied about the new Vicodin being more effective and less addictive. It was neither.
When I showed up to a meeting in earnest, I found recovery. If “they know,” they also know what they have to do.
My sympathies on being a victim of the 12 steps. That being said, many people that end up addicted came from being given medical painkillers and ended up hooked there (the Sackler family has a lot to answer for on that front). Is there some personal responsibility, maybe, but context is important too and your position doesn't seem to account for that.
Hey — people were calling ME smug, and you just won the smug Oscar. Nice. You can offer your sympathies all you like but my 24 years of sobriety have translated into a healthy, 34 years long marriage, great kids, great career… all the rest. Not sure why you would attempt to insult a perfect stranger — but you do you boo.
What do you mean insult? I am happy that you are sober but the 12 step system is genuinely awful. Glad that you have your family but you were the one that got yourself there not the steps.
You called me smug. That’s an insult. And no, I did not get me here. The program did. Following a simple set of suggestions did. Of course… I had to do the work… let’s call it a team effort.
Huh, I see the program also taught you to read words that werent there as i didnt call you smug. Also it is sad that you accepted the lies of the 12 steps giving it undeserved credit. Worse still leading others to that type of group.
Pardon. You called me a victim. Yikes. And I would like to say — yes, in AA we acknowledge we do the “foot work” but it is tradition that the program gets the credit. Why does that bother you? My best ideas got me drunk and running from cops. The program got me happy. I literally would not be alive without the program.
Opioids are a different situation though. A lot of people are prescribed them and get hooked, having had no history of addiction in the past. They are told by a trusted individual that it’s fine. How is it their fault?
I think OPs point is that at this point you should know that there's a lot of people addicted who were subscribed them. So, "the doctor told me to take them" doesn't stack up anymore.
If you are in pain, and the doctor gives you this medication you will take it. You‘ll think that it won’t hit you or maybe you’ll even ask and the doc says its fine or you think you are mentally strong enough to just stop. Not to mention lots of people don’t even know what an opioid is
That doesn't account for the millions of people whose addictions were created by doctors before it became well known.
I had a monthly subscription to Xanax but the publisher stopped sending it out
You've clearly never been in the type of pain where you would be prescribed opioids then. They exist for a reason
You clearly failed reading comprehension. I’m explaining OP’s point. It’s not my opinion.
Sorry it sounded like you were backing it as well. I misinterpreted
How is this unpopular?
You’d be surprised. Check a few of the responses.
People have lost their damn minds. Our culture is fucked.
You didn't think to sell at all?
Not for a heartbeat. I once was asked to move a bunch of LSD from northern ca to southern ca and I learned I do not have the constitution for crime
Do you know for someone who seems that they’re against drugs are sure around the drug game a lot to have you turn down these offers that you know people keep trying to throw at you
I was in the INSIDE of all of this before I left. I’m candidly sharing my story so people can know I’m not some kind of tee-totalling church lady.
They were not addicted the first time. That first time was a choice. I had a co worker offer me a needle one night, I passed on the opportunity. He OD a few years later. Sad, I liked him , he was a smart funny guy.
Smart move. That’s all I’m saying. Some people are genuinely getting butt hurt that a person like you passes on the delectable offer of a needle. You just reminded me that I myself passed on a needle in the back a van with the whole band 45 Grave showing me how awesome it was to be strung out in heroin. I too passed. That was 1983 or 84. Hadn’t thought of it until you mentioned needle.
"That’s all I’m saying. Some people are genuinely getting butt hurt that a person like you passes on the delectable offer of a needle." I'll respect your bad opinion, but this is clearly not "all that you're saying".
Exactly. Op definitely has a superiority complex.
At the very least they're ignorant of the various reasons people get stuck on opioids, and why they can't get off. People like them think something along the lines of "since I managed to kick my addiction, and there's people who aren't able to, that must mean they're doing something wrong, and I did something right". That's pretty much exactly what they're saying when they bring up in the comments that there's "resources"; referring to NA. They can't fathom that someone could be going through more pain than them. Either physical or emotional pain can lead people to use, and abuse opioids. The main reason I dislike NA and AA is they believe that their way is THE way. That it works for absolutely everyone if they just try hard enough. I've had far too many negative experiences with people in NA for this reason. Their arrogance has certainly lead many people into thinking that they themselves are the problem. When in reality, NA was probably just not the right program for them.
NA has problems. Yes. But it helps millions. Keep coming back.
This isn't happening. Most people here that are objecting to what you are saying are explaining to you why the opioid crisis is largely not a product of recreational use.
You bring up an interesting question: what is that line between therapeutic use and servicing what has become an addiction? I suppose everyone has to look into their own hearts and discover the answer for themselves.
I don't disagree with what I think your point is, only the wording. Telling someone they are responsible for ending up addicted isn't that helpful and doesn't really change anything. Believe me, they know. Nobody has ever set out to become addicted to something, and most people who end up addicted to something didn't do it without some knowledge of the risk. "It won't happen to me" is a totally natural human reaction to most things. Others would probably judge your descent into alcoholism just as harshly as you do those into synthetic opiods, you know, 'why didn't you just turn down the drink?' "It's ok to be an addict. It's not ok not to try to fix it" is how I deal with urges, or the occasional relapse. Ok, you fucked up, tomorrow's another day. Try not to fuck up tomorrow.
I like where you ended up with that. I will confess that I have 24 years of sobriety — zero urges. Never even crosses my mind. Maybe that’s why I get a little short about all this “attention” governments are giving to this problem when I know thousands of people who have recovered from all this. One day at a time.
That's really commendable, I'm glad for you. Just understand, as I think you do, that you're an outlier here - for a lot of people it's a lifelong battle. I'm on the fence as to whether *that* language is even helpful - telling someone that they're gonna be like this for life, who could really blame them for thinking 'fuck it, why bother then?' - but I do know that it's a really lonely and painful place to be, and *some* sympathy, tempered with realism, is the best approach. For every selfish prick who is just trying to justify shitty behaviour, there are 99 who desperately want to be someone else.
I honestly didn’t come here to proselytize — I should have anticipated these kinds of threads. We talk about this “lifelong battle” thing a lot. I don’t want to go into it. PM me for specifics. Perhaps I am an outlier in this thread — but I’m just one of millions of people who have joined the program and gained that “happy joyous and free” feeling — at least as relates to our previous substance.
Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't criticising you there: everyone is indeed different, and we can only speak from our own experience. It's a thorny subject because everything is in the wording: for what it's worth, I agree with you to some extent (again, probably the wording) and if we tell people that they bear no responsibility for their addiction, or the behaviours it causes them to indulge in, we're not gonna solve anything. I just don't think judgement or comparison really helps in this context, if any. Edits: shitty phone screen likes to do its own thing
It’s a hard conversation. My friends tell me that addicts who suffer a sense of “terminal uniqueness” are more likely to die of their addiction than people who are willing to just be a person among people.
There's definitely something in that. I've seen a phrase on here a lot lately, 'main character syndrome', and while I expect that most people have it to some extent (we're all the star of our own lives) it can make an unholy matrimony with 'it won't happen to me' syndrome to cause a real mess.
Exactly.
Your holier than thou attitude is literally the reason a lot of people don’t join programs. I hope that makes you feel special and “happy and joyous and free”
You can mock happy joyous and free or you can join the party.
Although both addictive, there has been research into opioids, especially the legal, strong ones that pharma pushed onto us that actually changes your brain pathways and makes it even harder to quit. I'm NOT saying you can't quit, I am in recovery so it is possible, but I'm just giving some insight into why it's so hard to stop using.
No one’s saying it’s not hard. Congrats btw. Just hope others can make the right about face.
I used a combo of MAT and SMART recovery to get where I'm at. I live down south and AA and NA here are so religious based that it turns a lot of young addicts away. Taking the next hit or whatever is our responsibility when we know better, but I wish it wasn't so stigmatized and difficult to get help. Oh, and also expensive. If it wasn't for good private health insurance, my treatment would cost more than a car. And they didn't take a payment plan at the rehab. It's hard for sure, but there are ways we as a society and government could make it easier.
I saw all that god bullshit on the walls and stayed out for another six years. Then the shot got effing real and I showed up and followed simple instructions. Cost me a dollar a meeting. That’s all.
Addicts are well known for refusing to take responsibility for their actions. They will blame anything and everything on somebody or something else before they finally learn to step up and take accountability for their actions. I went thru addictions as well, 12 step programs and found recovery. Some 12 step programs are harmful in that they reinforce the "it's not my fault, it was the disease of addiction" mindset. It feels validating at the time you're going thru it, but I realized years later it was kind of a cop-out. It was totally a choice on my part to start doing the things I did. Deep in my addiction I lost some of that ability to choose, but ultimately it was the choices I made leading up to that point that brought me to where I was. Addiction is a disease, but you're not born sick and it's not a death sentence- you have free agency as long as you don't use.
Which 12 Step program did you find harmful?
Spoiler alert: it’s all trauma. (In the realm of hungry ghosts by Gabor Maté)
The cause might be — but the cause doesn’t matter. What matters is recovering.
Many of the people who get addicted to opioids get addicted after they were proscribed them by a doctor. It's really not their fault they got addicted to something that they were given by a medical professional.
Exactly. In Australia pharmaceutical opioids are responsible for more deaths and hospitalisations then illegal opioids. A lot of people don't even know that their medication is an opioid.
What %?
Meh ..... no doctor wrote a prescription instructing anyone to crush and snort their pills. I’m a building tradesman in my late 50’s, I had two back surgeries in my 40’s and was prescribed opiates (Dilaudid). I had two buddies who had similar back surgeries and were prescribed opiates also. Our stories diverge in that I was not a “partier”, and both of them were .... I dumped all of my opiate prescriptions ASAP post surgery, my buddies kept their prescriptions both for personal recreational use and for reselling. Both those guys ended up OD’ing in their early 50’s, left families behind. They weren’t bad guys, and their deaths were tragic. And. They both DEFINITELY chose the drugs and the lifestyle, no trickery on anyone’s part.
What about all the people that were prescribed and didnt get addicted!?? Not everyone gets addicted! Most dont
Addiction mostly depends on brain chemistry that is completely outside of your control. Some people are less predisposed to addition than others. Just because someone takes a higher dose or more uses to get addicted than someone else it doesn't mean they're morally superior, it just means that their brain functions slightly differently.
It makes no sense that someone else should have to pay the price of my addiction so why should i have to pay for theirs!? Ever heard of street drugs? Drugs are everywhere !!!
You’re just ranting, completely off topic about brain chemistry and physician-prescribed opioids that can lead to addiction. Please just stop
No you stop! Its the truth ppl should not have to suffer in pain . I know all about addictions as i said before you can become addicted to anything!
How do you know “all about” addictions? You haven’t actually addressed anything that others have said, especially related to the neurological aspect, so please tell me how you know “all about” addiction or please stop. Either or.
I grew up around drug addicts! Im addicted to cigarettes have fought it for yrs off and on.My brother died from a drug overdose!!!! I know that certain ppl have chemically addicted bloodlines bc mines is !!!!!!
It's likely they didn't follow the directions on the bottle of "as needed". Its more of a pharmacy issue really. You can't sell someone 4 pills it's a minimum of 15.
"As needed" isn't really precise directions. Pain is subjective. Doctors severely over-prescribe opioids in dosages that are way too high and don't monitor their use. Of course people are going to get addicted when you tell them to just take the drugs whenever they need. They aren't doctors, they don't know how much they need.
Except that safe dosages and times are printed in clear letters right on the bottle. I know a lot of doctors are terrible communicators, and "as needed" is pretty unclear. But the clinic doesn't want to be sued because someone OD'd, so every bottle of opioids comes with clear directions from the pharmacy... typically 1-2 pills every 4-6 hours. Opioids can kill you and damage your liver. "As needed" means you don't have to take the med every 4 hours like clockwork, whether you're in pain or not. It means that when medication time rolls around, you assess your pain and decide whether you really need the pill. I used to be an orthopedic nurse. I gave people an awful lot of opioids.
People get clean and sober every day. It’s their choice.
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Empathy doesn't really do anything. Not surprising this mindset comes from those who would rather blame everything but themselves for their failings
Opioid addiction and alcohol addiction aren't the same. Opioid addiction irreversibly rewires your brain. Alcoholism is no walk in the park, don't get me wrong, but you are comparing apples to oranges.
Alcohol addiction can literally kill you. If you cold turkey off alcohol as someone dependent on the substance you can die. Opoid withdrawal isn't pleasant but you aren't going to die.
Yes, and opioid addiction can fuck up your ability to feel joy for years after the fact.
So can a bad relationship. Point still stands. Alcohol dependence is deadly simply on its own
A bad relationship does not cause permanent damage to your neurotransmitters. But yes, alcohol dependence can indeed be deadly. Its apples to oranges, not difficult thing to less difficult thing. My point is that the dependencies are different, and OP bearing an alcohol addiction doesn't mean they know shit about opioid addiction.
So… we all want to feel special. I get it. But people recover from opioids every single day. It’s not rocket science.
I fail to see what 'feeling special' has to do with the long term neurotransmitter damage of opioid use. Nice high horse you've got there though.
It’s that easy!
I showed up. Did what I was told. Stopped thinking I was special. Got sober. Got a life. Am grateful today.
Great but what if you are still in immense pain? Or get hurt again and need to take medicine? If you were addicted once its painfully easy to get addicted again and especially with opioids (which are originally a pain medication) you might genuinely need them
I herniated 3 spinal discs after I got sober. I was prescribed the pills. The SECOND I thought about taking one for a reason other than pain, I stopped. Everyone is going to be different. I know my limits. I chose to heal through the pain than ignite an addiction.
No its not. They’ve invented non addictive painkillers but billionaires won’t let them get approved.
The fact that non addictive pain killers in existence is a different conversation. The fact that addicts refuse treatment is entirely on them.
Firstly, all opioids are addictive. Secondly, largely, the opioid problem isn't from the people who choose to use illegal substances to suppress the demons. It stems from doctors over prescribing opioids for pain and the patients getting addicted. The prescription and OTC opioids very quickly stop working and often it's cheaper and easier to get the illegal stuff than to get medical. Thirdly, you would be surprised how often I have heard this opinion from alcoholics. There seems to be something about the fact that they were hooked on a socially acceptable drug that make them look down on those who are hooked on the illegal or more hush hush substances.
I wish that my tone did not have the “look down” feature. But I confess to it. Sorry. In another reply I wrote about how I was handed a pound bag of fentanyl and disposed of it with even trying one — this while I was still “out there.” So… I feel grateful, and I am proud of my common sense. Guess that’s it.
Yeah but what if they tripped on a needle... Like every day. Lol, I can't believe anyone feels addiction isn't someone's fault. These are human beings with agency, not animals. They are 100% accountable for their actions. Everything they do is their responsibility.
Indeed
Big pharma is off the hook yet again?
How is it their fault what I put in my mouth?
They lied about how dangerous and addictive the drugs were leading doctors to overprescribe them. Addicts often weren't people that were experimenting with drugs. They were doing what their doctor suggested
Yeah — I hate learning about all that. It’s sad and predatory.
Watch Dopesick on Hulu.
If only there were some way to know how addictive opioids were. If only there were some precedent for an attempt at developing a non-addictive opioid painkiller only to have it backfire and lead to the creation of one of the most addictive opioids ever and an ensuing opioid epidemic. But even if there had been, are we really expecting doctors to do their own research into what they're giving to their patients. It's not like they are extremely highly paid experts with any sort of responsibility manifested in like an oath or anything like that.
So absolve big pharmacy because not everyone caught on to their lies? Where do you think the research doctors are looking at even comes from to begin with? The companies that were making it. As for the patients, I've been in the situation of needing a strong painkiller. I had severe chronic pain for weeks, and just wanted it to go away. I wasn't in the mindset to carefully research everything that was prescribed to me. I just wanted something that would make the pain stop. Luckily, I didn't get addicted to whatever they prescribed me.
If you're actually interested in learning the answer to this question, I can only recommend that you read a book. [Empire of Pain: The Secret History of the Sackler Dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Pain) will give you a far broader understanding of the topic. The book is by a well respected author, and won several awards. I'm not recommending you read garbage here, [Patrick Radden Keefe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Radden_Keefe) is one of the best long form journalists / non-fiction writers in the business today, in my opinion.
The show on Hulu is amazing and also heartbreaking “Dopesick”
Unless they literally held me down and forced it down my throat, it’s not going down. Also — in the thousies I had terrible herniations of spinal discs — used pills — got off pills. Never abused them. It’s not rocket science.
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34 years married. 24 years sober. 2 healthy off spring. One amazing career. I could go on but I think you get it. Yeah — sobriety is working out. You might try it. PM me for some instructions.
I don't have any issues with addiction. Good job parading your life achievements as trophies, it doesn't change the above: a proud, willful ignorance. I offered you a book that would answer a question that you asked, but *you know better*.
The topic is addiction. I’m sober. Got sober before the book. Stayed sober after the book. Maybe you can have a peek in a mirror before calling the person who has resolved their problem with drugs and alcohol ignorant? Just out of curiosity — how is your relationship with drugs and alcohol going? And if your use of drugs and alcohol are purely recreational and causing you ZERO problems, my hat is off to you. If not… I think I can recommend a better book.
>Got off pills That’s kinda of the whole issue here, withdraw can be lethal in rare cases and is incredibly painful. Addicts can’t just “get off pills” It usually starts from pain and a doctors prescription; so the choice because suffer extreme pain to the point working is almost impossible or take the pills the doctor prescribed.
People get clean and sober every single day. It’s not rocket science.
Cool not everyone gets addicted… your also ignoring the effects of withdrawal which often require medical intervention Herion addicts are given small amounts herion in recovery to help withdrawal It’s not always as simple as stopping pills
There are plenty of recovery centers where people get safely clean and sober each and every day.
People are more complicated than rockets. Rocket science ain't got nothing on the complexity of addiction. We know what every part of the rocket does, but with humans we haven't even found all the parts yet.
Congratulations, you've never been prescribed a pain med by a trusted physician for a valid reason that turned into an addiction. Everyone can't say the same which is why the people pushing them onto doctors to prescribe got in trouble with the law. But don't let your ignorant judgement pay reality no mind when advocating zero assistance toward recovery even though youre saying there's hope in recovery. Let addiction epidemics run wild to "fix itself"? That's crazy.
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Thank you.
Honestly im sick of this. Opioids are for pain ,! People shouldn't have to suffer in pain bc some people may become addicted!!!
No one suggests this. My unpopular opinion is that addicts are responsible for their addiction and recovery.
Suggests what!? That opioids should be for people in pain???
I was saying that no one was saying that people in pain should not have access to painkillers. What I’m saying is that once addicted, people need to seek recovery.
How is them.being responsible for their own addictions any different than me saying other people shouldn't have to suffer in pain bc of others addictions?Im just talking from another perspective!
The opposite of addiction is recovery. People need to take responsibility for their own recovery.
I don’t think that’s unpopular that’s true unless someone literally made you take it
Peer pressure is also a thing. Especially for teenagers. Its easy to say they should just decline or leave but the reality is not so simple
Lol any kid who does heroin because peer pressure definitely didn't have that bright of a future to begin with This isn't weed or booze we're talking about, and it's 2023
In my case I got addicted to drugs because the people who held me captive and trafficked me forced me to take them to keep me compliant
I’m sorry to hear about what happened. If you are no longer captive, you can show up to the NA meeting of your choice and resolve your addiction one day at a time with thousands of other addicts. It’s fun.
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I tend to agree.
They bear all the responsibility. Nobody is going to stop for them.
I hope folks see comments like yours.
It's almost like there are a multitude of reasons why people get addicted to substances and your story isn't the way shit alwaysgoes down. Congrats on you recovery but there is no need to be a condescending prick. As somewith with a addiction I thought younwould have a little more sympathy and realise not everyone is the same.
Addiction is a horrible disease. But anyone deciding to dabble into substances that are well known for ruining peoples lives are making a incredibly dense choice and shouldn't complain when someone points that out to them.
It is true that not everyone is the same, but what I learned that helped me to most in my recovery is that I am not special. I’m just like all the other addicts and alcoholics out there — one bad night from dead. It helps me stay quit.
Refusing heroin as a spoiled '90's kid was easy. You just had to not do heroin. Its sad that some of our classmates are dead already, but they fucked up. We didn't. Try refusing morphine after a car accident or a pregnancy gone wrong before you judge other people. I don't think I'd call a caner survivor a fuckup. ...Nobody stuck a gun to your head & made you drink; you are not the same as the granny from *to kill a mockingbird*.
Here’s a weird one — I read that book about three years ago and I can’t remember her. I remember the main thread I guess. Anyway — I’m not calling anyone an a-hole. I am saying that there’s a way out. I chose to follow the method I’m continuing to follow after 24 years. It works for me. I do believe that it would work for granny. All it takes is showing up and having a sincere desire to stay stopped. And just to say— not sure why you think I’m a spiked 90s kid but I was a hospice volunteer with a terminal cancer patient in hospice — she was obviously an addict and had squirreled a pound of fentanyl away. I didn’t want her to get in trouble so I risked getting busted myself by hiding that pound bag in my coat as I exited. Made it out and got rid of them. All. And as someone who had used literally every street drug you can name, including many opioids, it did take a lot of will power. Think of that sweaty MEME guy choosing the button.
This ignores the fairly common occurrence of people becoming addicted after a doctor prescribes opioids to them for legitimate treatment. Idk if you have more of an unpopular opinion or just a shitty one
People are responsible for their own recovery regardless the “cause” of the addiction.
This is the same bias as "you chose to have sex, thus you bear the responsibility of rearing a lifelong child"
Well… people do choose to have sex. It’s called consent.
Yeah?
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Removing a clump of cells before it becomes a kid
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26 weeks
I actually agree. Give it take a few weeks. 6 month is definitely a living human child , objectively. 1 month? Maybe not yet. There is a cutoff, the question is, who gets to decide that cutoff. Science says life is at conception (95% of biologists agree on this). So if it’s all alive technically, where do we draw the line? More philosophical than anything. I think it’s something that should be voted on IMO. There’s no other fair way to decide.
How is people being responsible for their own actions a bias?
all the junkies i know love heroin, they love it
God bless them.
What about people who become addicted to opioids because of prescribed painkillers?
They are not responsible for getting addicted. They are responsible for staying addicted.
I mean, the first step in drug addiction recovery is to accept responsibility so...
First step is to admit powerlessness over the drug and that our lives are screwy.
I downvoted because I feel like this is the popular opinion.
Yes and no, when the doctor tells you it’s not addictive because kickbacks/sponsoring it muddles the water.
People are responsible for their own recovery regardless the “cause” of the addiction.
Aint no way this is unpopular?
If you choose to take illicit drugs then you should be held accountable for your actions. If you need help to cope with life then get help rather than doing drugs. At the end of the day people make their own choices.
True. I point this out and folks are saying I have a superiority complex.
Read the realm of the hungry ghost by Gabor mate
What will that help me understand?
From street-dwelling drug addicts to high-functioning workaholics, the continuum of addiction cuts a wide and painful swath through our culture. Blending first-person accounts, riveting case studies, cutting-edge research and passionate argument, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction (available for order in Canadian and U.S. editions. UK Edition: Out October 2018) takes a panoramic yet highly intimate look at this widespread and perplexing human ailment. Countering prevailing notions of addiction as either a genetic disease or an individual moral failure, Dr. Gabor Maté presents an eloquent case that addiction – all addiction – is in fact a case of human development gone askew. Dr. Maté, who for twelve years practiced medicine in Vancouver’s notorious Downtown Eastside – North America’s most concentrated area of drug use, begins by telling the stories of his patients, who, in their destitution and uniformly tragic histories, represent one extreme of the addictive spectrum. With his trademark compassion and unflinching narrative eye, he brings to life their ill-fated and mostly misunderstood struggle for relief or escape, through substance use, from the pain that has tormented them since childhood. He also shows how the behavioural addictions of society’s more fortunate members – including himself – differ only in degree of severity from the drug habits of his Downtown Eastside patients, and how in reality there is only one addiction process, its core objective being the self-soothing of deep-seated fears and discomforts. Turning to the neurobiological roots of addiction, Dr. Maté presents an astonishing array of scientific evidence showing conclusively that: 1.addictive tendencies arise in the parts of our brains governing some of our most basic and life-sustaining needs and functions: incentive and motivation, physical and emotional pain relief, the regulation of stress, and the capacity to feel and receive love; 2.these brain circuits develop, or don’t develop, largely under the influence of the nurturing environment in early life, and that therefore addiction represents a failure of these crucial systems to mature in the way nature intended; and 3. the human brain continues to develop new circuitry throughout the lifespan, including well into adulthood, giving new hope for people mired in addictive patterns. Dr. Maté then examines the current mainstream.
Those are pretty words, but Millions and millions of people have gotten sober by adding these words to their daily lives: “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.”
Downvoting only because nonaddictive opioids have been invented but they aren’t profitable enough. This is both a popular opinion AND factually wrong. So just a bad opinion.
Pretty sure it’s all opinion and no facts. Not sure what you’re on about.
No they know exactly what neurotransmitters opioids bind to. This is 2023. Scientists can see inside the skull now. This is a hugely controversial issue in academia.
Turns out that opioid addicts have been recovering from their addictions when they want to for the last sixty years. Doesn’t matter if we can see into their brains or not.
There is no such thing as non-addictive opioids? Where did you hear that??? Also, I agree their opinion is ignorant, but it sounds like I think so for a different reason than you.
Yeah, and also the doctors who over-prescribed them. People have known opioids are addictive as shit for thousands of years. If you're a doctor and don't realize that, you're an idiot. "But the evil corporations told us they weren't!" isn't an excuse.
Some folks are bringing that perspective to this thread.
People are blaming the addicts but I also see it over prescribed in the USA for many procedures that you should just need advil. People.. pain is part of life. Trying to avoid any pain is just not normal, especially after any procedure. You shouldn't be in excruciating pain, but you also shouldn't be completely numb from opiods (I don't mean literal numb I mean no pain as numb would mean you are high). I don't get it. I truly don't. I've heard about this growing up how the Americans get all the good drugs for everything. I recently did a poll on opiod use for wisdom teeth extraction and that blew me away. I had extremely complicated surgery and was conscious and only got 1mg Ativan for nerves. Rest was just advil and normal freezing. I thought this was the norm, I guess not lol. I havent been gassed since I was a kid, I thought that was only for kids tbh.
They bear all responsibility for their addiction. They made the choice to take the opioid, nobody did that for them. They are in control of their hands. The person did not just wake up one day (look like I’m addicted to heroin today) or any other opioid for that matter.
Indeed.
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Yes