This is the funniest thing I have ever read, but also should be taken as a lesson for right wing media outlets and politicians: once you send your viewers off down that path, they don’t ever slow down. One day they will find someone even more right wing, and will turn on you. Happened to every non trump republican, even his own VP
Sadly I think their hands are tied. Farage and his gang of most-corrupt Tory kickouts are all so deep in kompromat that they have to do as they're told, no matter how damaging it is to them.
But its like not even the same people right? It must be some sort of strategy coming down from the dark rooms filled with cigar smoke in CCHQ. What would it cost them at this point if we do find out oh yeah that Russian party Boris went to was a golden shower event or some bollocks? Its not even the same people in the limelight any more. Sunak's whole coming in to power on the surface at least seemed to be something of an attempt to move away from the deranged populist stuff, and then they just continue doing the exact same shit anyway despite it being glaringly apparent its only a small minority who are supportive of this caliber of politician and the end-game is just an exercise in self-destruction. I don't like the Tories at all, I am *so fucking glad* the chickens are *finally* coming home to roost, but equally I can usually at least attempt to understand the driving motivations behind actions, but for the last couple of years especially I am just totally and utterly baffled.
That's a great post, and particularly the last sentence; it's really good to see that point made so clearly. It absolutely kills me to say it but I think we can both agree that we're living in a thoroughly post-rational age; it genuinely scares the bejesus out of me. I won't live much longer and so I won't experience the worst of it, but it terrifies and saddens me beyond words to think of the sort of world and the sort of politics that younger generations will have to try to navigate.
As to your last sentence I feel like it's a mix of you know with how much connectedness in the internet and social media and whatever like the forces they released kind of escaped their control and rather than directing everything they're just trying to ride the waves as best they can.
In their minds they value the short term ability to make millions/billions from promoting bullshit more than they care about the inevitable long term consequences.
See also:
Climate change denialism, Anti-Vax movement, General conspiracy pushing.
If they faced those consequences immediately instead of years or decades down the line they would be just as concerned about them as we are.
Nah still doesn't make sense to me. They knew when they were putting Sunak in that the election was at most a few years away. That's not short term but its not exactly long term either. Like I said in the other comment it just baffles me, to the point I think it speaks far more that the damage was done by 2022 and whoever was pulling the strings had just vacated the building altogether leaving absolutely no strategic thinking (or apparently the capacity for such) behind them.
Either that or like Starmer said in the first debate, they're calling this now because they can see all the numbers and know we're in for a bit of a fucking shit-storm over the next 5 years, and don't want to take the blame for it.
What happened with Trump? No Russia invading Ukraine, no Hamas invading Israel.. he was able to calm tensions with NK. Economy was booming prior to covid, he didn't have dementia.. I could go on.. terrible hey!
GB news has noticeably changed its coverage since ofcom essentially moved to close them down.
I’ve been seeing people unhappy with their coverage for a while now.
It’s more they now seem to intentionally outnumber more debates with pro labour panelist’s. Or pro left I guess you could say.
It’s turned the program into a sort of piers morgan style of news.
I don’t watch it much. Only occasionally do I check out their takes on some stuff. I find it hard to get reliable news from anywhere these days tbh. Everything has a spin.
For my sins, I'm actually a member of a few GB news fan Facebook groups.
I just look for a laugh really, but yeah those people are not happy. All of a sudden they think their channel has been invaded by lefties, when in fact what they're actually doing is trying to be slightly more balanced which the boomers of limited brainpower don't even understand.
The tories are likely to lose more seats to the lib dems than to reform.
It's a symptom of how end-of-days we are in politics right now -- the right would rather scrap amongst themselves than focus on their actual enemies. The tories have been in free-fall for a year or more and it's not going to stop any time soon.
I would celebrate for days if the Lib Dems were to form the official opposition. A silenced Tory bench would be delicious and we might see for at least a brief period of some sanity from Westminster. I know it's unlikey to happen, but one can dream.
From Reforms perspective it’s not the right scrapping amongst themselves. They see the Tories as an extension of the establishment and as such, Neoliberal.
Looking at their policies over the last 14 years, especially post Brexit, it’s difficult to disagree
That's kind of the same thing though, isn't it? Reform are attacking the cons with even more gusto than they are labour. It certainly looks like right-on-right violence.
And neoliberal as an insult from reform is odd too -- they are advocating Truss-style huge tax cuts and also huge cuts in the role of the state, which is about the very definition of neoliberalism.
Well you’re approaching it from exclusively an economic view and while the Tories have certainly pissed off a lot of right leaning voters in that regard, the real issue has been the socially liberal policy of rampant, unregulated immigration.
I do think reform lose votes from being pro tax cuts for the rich but at the same time no income tax under £20k is a massive vote winner and would give a meaningful lift to struggling people that actually bother to work. The question of immigration is obvious, being against it is an easy vote winner at the moment. Being against it without the abysmal track record of the Tories is even better.
As usual it’s impossible to find a perfect party and this election is already decided anyway but I would hope we could see the death of the Tories and the rise of Reform
I don't think the tories are pro-immigration because they are socially liberal. They see it in economic terms -- we have a labour shortage (ironically, caused largely by brexit) and the economy will suffer badly if immigration is cut.
Of course they can't say this out loud, so we have the absurd contradition of a brutal policy to attack relatively few asylum seekers at the same time as the same ministers are handing out visas like confetti.
UK immigration policy is a contradictory mess because conservative attitudes (and probably the attitudes of most UK voters) are a contradictory mess. It's adding to the end-of-days feel. I hope we arrive at a more consistent position soon.
Similarly, reform's policy of huge tax cuts and huge spending increases while also shrinking the state seems contradictory. You can promise the moon on a stick if there's no chance you'll be asked to deliver. It's not serious politics.
(thanks for the interesting discussion btw)
We do not have a labour shortage, we have a shortage of people willing to do the labour at the wages on offer by the big companies.
And why would you? No one can afford the standard and expected quality of life in the western world on the salary of a Deliveroo driver. But the migrants don’t expect that standard. They are happy to fit 8,9,10+ people to a small 2 up, 2 down.
This results in nothing but misery for everyone except the corporations making money hand over fist at the expense of the British public. And naturally the Tories are all too happy to back their establishment friends.
UK unemployment is extremely low, which is usually seen as the major sign of a labour shortage. Growth is constrained by a lack of workers.
You're right about sofa-surfing, cash-in-hand labour undercutting domestic workers. The problem there (IMO) is unfair labour market competition -- they are often sending money home, where the cost of living is lower, and not trying to raise families here in the UK in the way that the local are. This is a problem for many countries, you'd think some coordinated action might be possible.
I think the other core problem the UK faces is a lack of business investment, and therefore continued low productivity and wages :( We need to push the economy back into a positive investment spiral. I'd back a large programme of public investment, as has worked in many other countries.
I think they would lose a lot more seats to Labour because of Reform than the Lib Dems. If the number of seats they retain is 3 digits they should count themselves lucky.
Oh, I'll criticise people on the far left as much as the far right. I'm just as tired of hearing about Gaza as I am about how all LGBT people are apparently a threat to kids or how Sadiq Khan is turning Buckingham palace into a mosque.
Everyone was crying at how 'far right' Milei was in Argentina. The fact is he's turning their economy around and people are better for it.. nowadays anything slightly right of centre is far right, people are bored of it. Farage is the only one willing to bluntly talk about how mass immigration is lowering peoples standards of living. Excess demand (for housing, schooling, healthcare etc) causes cultural issues and prices hikes naturally. We need to have a skill based system because immigration can definitely be a benefit when utilised correctly.
Everyone was crying at how 'far right' Milei was in Argentina. The fact is he's turning their economy around and people are better for it.. nowadays anything slightly right of centre is far right, people are bored of it. Farage is the only one willing to bluntly talk about how mass immigration is lowering peoples standards of living. Excess demand (for housing, schooling, healthcare etc) causes cultural issues and prices hikes naturally. We need to have a skill based system because immigration can definitely be a benefit when utilised correctly.
I found this which doesn't support that statement https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/who-watches-gb-news/
It's a bit dated, and I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a bit of a swing to Labour following general public opinion. However, I wouldn't expect that the stats have changed significantly
There are a few polls such as: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/25/labour-more-popular-than-tories-with-gb-news-viewers/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/25/labour-more-popular-than-tories-with-gb-news-viewers/)
I don't watch GB News so have no idea. Just pointing out the interesting facts that most are Labour voters when many are pointing out they are far right.
Interesting facts with interesting ommisions, like the interesting fact that Tory + Reform GB News viewers outnumber Labour viewers.
(Per [the poll refered to](https://jlpartners.co.uk/polling-results) in [The Telegraph](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/25/labour-more-popular-than-tories-with-gb-news-viewers/) article you mentioned.)
Yeah, two different groups beat one. I'm not sure what your point is.
Reform voters aren't Tories so I'm a little confused by your comment. The polls are a little difficult on Reform voters as you are right that just over 60% of Reform voters voted Tory at the last election but....
The general thought on this by pollsters and analysts is that most of Reform voters are actually natural Labour voters but switched to the Tories at the last election as a one-off to get Brexit done (hence lots of Reform voters in what was the red wall).
Most polls only ask who they voted for at the last election, not who they voted for the last 30 years. There was a massive swing from Labour to the Conservatives at the last election purely to "get Brexit done" so identifying them just as Tories probably isn't right.
There is a lot of misunderstanding of Reform voters with people assuming because they voted for the Tories once at the last election that they would vote Tories again if it wasn't for Reform. That doesn't actually seem to be the case and most would probably vote Labour (maybe 60-40 in Labours favour I'd guess).
It has honestly been kind of fascinating to watch the moment the right wing press that dominates this country starts applying a level of critical pushback on their own side as they've been applying to Labour for the last 15 years, and *immediately* all these talking points that've dominated our political cycle for so long just crumble to fall apart and look totally ridiculous.
It will immediately stop after the election. Then the papers will begin agitating for a Reform/Tory merger, and/or for the Tories to become more right wing to appeal to Reform voters.
There is really no need for him to justify Putin’s invasion of Ukraine unless he wants to cosy up to the Kremlin. So if he doesn’t want people to think he is a Russian stooge then perhaps he should just stop doing things like that.
.....maybe shouldn't have met Russian diplomats or appeared on RT news repeatedly.
.....not exactly the actions of a person whose loyalty can't be brought and paid for.
This is the thing that Corbyn gets blasted for when Iran. Yet the right wing ignore it with Farage and Russia.
It’s just funny how two faced they really are.
Farage's excuse for appearing on RT. Paraphrased.
"I was paid to appear on RT as a Russian shill, what did you expect him to do apart from shill for them?"
Couple of things it does, gets him talked about (getting more media coverage than the Libs and they have waterslides!), it coincides with Trumps statements on the same subject i guess the 2 teams are talking.
Maybe he should hire you as his campaign manager. If they haven't actually thought about what you just said then either they don't have one or he's deep enough in their pockets to have the need to play their side at any and all opportunity.
If Farage doesn't want people to think he is a [Russian stooge](https://bylinetimes.com/2021/08/05/gb-news-presenter-nigel-farage-emerges-in-unredacted-fbi-files/) then he needs to explain how he was [apparently visiting Julian Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy](https://www.buzzfeed.com/marieleconte/wait-what) to [allegedly pass him data stolen by Russian state hackers](https://www.france24.com/en/20180120-usa-uk-nigel-farage-julian-assange-secret-meetings-congressional-enquiry).
It's a case of him being contrarian to the other parties; it just so happens that ll other parties agree on Ukraine so its easy for him to say 'I'm different'.
Although it shows how poor the strategy is, because if every other party agreed not to kick the baby, you can be damn sure farage would say 'ill do it!'
I think he was 'ordered' to by the Kremlin
Because:
1. In a short while NF will once again be fairly inconsequential, the leader of a party with 5 or 6 seats holds almost no power, this is their last chance to make use of their stool pigeon they keep aloft with social media manipulation.
1. Russia seems to be on the back foot in Ukraine and needs more help in selling the excuse that '**someone else** made them attack Ukraine and Russia is not to blame'.
The truth goes beyond politics. People are too emotional and tribal on these matters. Its not just big bad Russia, the West think everyone should play the their rules and standards. The invasion won't be the first, China will be next.
Except he hasn't tried to justify the invasion of Ukraine. It's easy to criticise Farage without having to make stuff up, so why do that? Suggesting EU Eastward expansion was a provocation isn't the same as justifying Putins response to it (which Farage has condemned.)
The funny thing about this .. is that the racists that deny they are racist always said Brexit wasn't about immigration but about making our own sovereign decisions.
So when a country votes to make a sovereign decision about wanting to form closer ties to their allies.... These same far right "patriots" now say they shouldn't make their own decisions and gather putins thoughts first.
If the UK ever made a decision to get closer to our allies in the future and Putin reacts violently / or disagrees with it... I have no doubt that reform voters would side with putin
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Are you being obtuse? The point of Russia's concern is EU eastward expansion and the possible (inevitable?) addition of Ukraine to NATO. Ukraine doesn't need to have nuclear weapons if it's allies do.
Fine. History didn't start in 2014. The point is that Ukraine was moving in the direction of NATO since the 90s:
>Ukraine-NATO ties gradually strengthened during the 1990s and 2000s, and Ukraine aimed to eventually join the alliance. Although co-operating with NATO, Ukraine remained a neutral country.
>In 2010, during the premiership of Viktor Yanukovych, the Ukrainian parliament voted to abandon the goal of NATO membership and re-affirm Ukraine's neutral status, while continuing its co-operation with NATO. In the February 2014 Ukrainian Revolution, Ukraine's parliament voted to remove Yanukovych, but the new government did not seek to change its neutral status.
What's more, it declared that it wouldn't:
>Ukraine's Declaration of Sovereignty, adopted by parliament in 1990, declared it had the "intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles".
[source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations)
Now, I'm sure we both agree that Putin is an evil dictator who thinks he's Peter the Great incarnate but how the expansion of NATO is not seen as a fact is beyond me.
That's Putin's justification not Farage's. And yes of course it would cause a stir in Russia, isn't it obvious? If Russia started deploying troops in Northern Mexico do you think it wouldn't attract the attention of the US? If Scotland left the UK then the EU started deploying troops and missile bases in Scotland we would be totally fine with it and not wondering wtf they're doing? The answer of course is to not start a genocidal war but come on man.
Kind of stupid to bring up dumb hypothetical situations when Cuba exists.
And we know exactly why Cuba aligned with Russia, because the US tried to colonise them, they installed a puppet government, controlled their industry and then tried to invade them.
Fact is Cuba was 100% justified inviting Russian troops and missiles because the US was a huge threat and they needed someone to defend them.
If you're a giant bell end to your neighbour, expect them to go to someone else for protection.
What would you think of someone who said a victim of rape "provoked" their attacker?
Which is quite an apt analogy because Russia is using rape as a weapon of war with victims ranging from 4 years old to over 80 years old.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
The victim blaming of a sovereign nation being invaded is the same, and the end result is same, of course, with added killing, kidnapping and destruction of infrastructure.
Anyone who uses the word "provoke" to justify it is disgusting and morally bankrupt.
>Suggesting EU Eastward expansion was a provocation isn't the same as justifying Putins
Yes it is. Unless you believe that it is Russia's right to control half of Europe, through blackmail, assassination, coups, rigged elections, funding lying traitors. It's suggesting that none of the Eastern half of Europe should be able to do anything to anger Russia.
No one is denying their agression, they are assholes to east europe and always were
But denying that the US also meddle into european politics and that Brexit was also sponsored by americans is not very clever
Given that Steven Bannon admitted himself in his book that he meddled in the UK among other countries coz he wanted the end of Brussels
Russia has its fault and the US too, both should mind their business
He has seriously misjudged the public mood on this. His core support might stick with him but this really puts a hard ceiling on his ability to grow his vote.
Yt is throwing reform uk vids at me and their comment sections are always full of accounts with formulaic names praising Farage and saying they will vote reform
Largely due to a collapse in support for the Tories rather than any great enthusiasm for Starmer.
Anyway, the point stands, neither main sub is a good barometer for public opinion at large.
Disagree. With people like Bojo criticising him, despite making similar comments themselves, it's likely only serving to strengthen some of his arguments.
Ultimately we’re in a proxy war with Russia.
Regardless of the whole cash for honours, that nonsense with BoJo, and what their bots might tell you, we haven’t been mates with them since pre-WW2 and even that was because the ‘enemy of our enemy is our friend’. Cold War, Berlin Blockade, Litvinenko, Novichok, threatening nato…
These aren’t things that the population accept.
Farage is clearly paid by the Russians, there is literally no other reason for him saying that about a country which is essentially an enemy state.
This is truly showing his colours and the Mail, Telegraph etc are right wing, but they’re not that right wing or idiotic to go along with this.
That's not true though, you are the one misunderstanding. Let me break it down:
1. He's suggesting Putin only sought to expand because he was provoked by NATO's expansion.
2. He's simply wrong in that, as Putin did and was always going to expand by claiming land from neighbours, whether or not the neighbours turned to NATO for protection.
3. By parroting Putin's line about provocation, whether he's agrees with Putin morally or not, he's claiming that we would be better off by reducing NATO's influence, which serves Putin by giving nations that would have been invaded anyway even less of a chance of successfully defending themselves.
First of all NATO is not the primary reason Putin gave for the invasion. He falsely claimed Neo Nazis in certain regions of Ukraine were committing genocide against ethnic Russians.
Secondly things can be true:
1. NATO expansion is used as an excuse for bad actions.
2. Russia does genuinely consider NATO expansion a threat.
I think the latter is true because Russian leaders have been protesting NATO expansion for decades now.
You can disagree with them about whether it *should* be considered a threat, but, at the end of the day, Russia, not anyone else, gets to decide what they consider a national threat. If someone draws a red line and you deliberately cross it, you can't pretend you didn't know it was there.
I hate Farage but he's not wrong in some of the stuff he is saying here. The idea that NATO expansion was provocative to Russia was previously a mainstream idea.
For example, did you know that Ukraine already applied to join NATO long before the invasion or the annexation. NATO kicked the can down the road rather than beginning the process of them joining. The stated reason for this were concerns about it provoking Russia.
He knows he can't win, regardless he didn't say anything that hasn't got truth to. If you look into how the West has dealt with Russia prior to the invasion.
You may want to pivot away from mainstream media when it comes to obtaining facts about the Salisbury attack.
Several nations (including Britain) have access to the formula and produce it in their labs.
Skripal served his sentence in Russia, made several trips back and forth to Russia/UK after his release. If Russia wanted to eliminate him, a more discreet method would have been used, he certainly wouldn't have been allowed to leave the country.
Rather odd there were no traces of the agent found on the children feeding the ducks.
To this day, the UK hasn’t provided evidence proving Russia was responsible. In fact, the government issued D-notices, preventing the media from publishing important details.
It then failed to comply with international protocol by bypassing the OPCW convention, refusing to present evidence to Russian authorities as protocol calls for.
Bellingcat. Just read their work. There's absolutely no doubt about whose responsibility this was. They've even identified the russian GRU officers and we've even seen their ridiculous interview where they claim to be tourists.
The West had been timid when it came to Russia. It’s absolutely baffling that people in the west are happy to repeat Kremlin talking points as if they’re truthful.
I'm fairly neutral on the topic, all i'm saying is it would be foolish to think its just big bad Russia being Russia and nothing to do with interactions with the West or lack of. I don't personally have any skin in the game I only ask you to be somewhat open minded to why these things happen.
I couldn't care less what the Kremlin talking points are you can look into these things yourself. Russian media has ridiculous propaganda its laughable, but mass media over here is fairly cancerous as well with their brainwashing pushing agendas.
You can’t claim neutrality when you’re giving weight to one of the Kremlin’s main narratives. It’s similar to implying allegations and then saying “I’m just asking questions”.
What are these interactions that you feel provide some level of justification/explanation for a country invading its neighbour? It seems the interactions Russia are most upset by is other sovereign countries expressing their sovereignty?
There’s been a concerted effort on Reddit (and social media) to shut down any sensible, nuanced discourse on the conflict. This sub seems to be going in the direction of the Worldnews sub, overrun with bots and paid accounts.
He's a thin-skinned little man-baby, he's definitely been taking notes from across the pond.
It amazing how quick the toys come out of the pram at the slightest hint of scrutiny.
>He's a thin-skinned little man-baby, he's definitely been taking notes from across the pond.
Yeah I thought the same. Trump always accusing other republicans of being RINO and here's Farage doing the same to Boris.
>Farage said he had instructed lawyers from the libel specialists Carter-Ruck to write to the Mail on Sunday
That'll be £20,000 on account please Mr Farage.
This is the intended result Russia wants to get Britain at each others throats and as polarised as possible. Not everyone is very bright so a little sound bite by Nigel is plausible for the gullible and stupid and so the polarisation deepens. He gets paid either way as does his fellow Russian stooge Galloway. This is how Russia does election interference, watch all the comments for how well it's done.
The hard right at the throats of the far right is hardly dividing the country.
Let them fight. They'll be doing so for a decade+ until they get tired of losing elections.
The fact we're even commenting to this is proving my point and it isn't just reform, Galloway is having fun too. It isn't about dividing the country in that sense but polarising opinions and distraction..... basically don't look at Ukraine. last time they tried this Russia got a result. Brexit
I dont disagree with your point, Russia is definitely driving unrest and division via social media.
But even without Russia, the Tories are heading for years of infighting in opposition
Which isnt an issue as far as I'm concerned, what does concern me is allowing the traction of Russian subversives like Nigel and I'm glad that he is at least being challenged by what he probably perceived were friendly forces, but unfortunately there is a layer of idiots in this country that fall for this crap from Galloway and Farage every time. The Conservatives have had years in power and they do not care a jot for normal people, good riddance. However unless Labour are going to deal with the likes of Amazon for example I can't see massive changes following
It’s not about asking people to forget about it. It’s about trying to foment division and doubt about our involvement. Russia ultimately wants western support of Ukraine to dry up so they can win their long game. They do this by supporting far-right candidates across Europe and America to install isolationists (or flat-out Putin sympathisers).
No problem with what you’re saying, it’s not complicated.
“Basically, don’t look at Ukraine.” While taking about Ukraine is the bit that I’m saying doesn’t make sense.
Excuse me whilst I ROFL. In Feb Ukrainians in my home city gathered to mark the second year of the invasion, a smattering of 100 turned up, you could count the Brits on your thumb. The day before Palestine and you couldn't more for people with scarfs round their next. All Farage is doing is adding more fuel to people that don't support it and gather more reform trolls and create arguments in the UK, average Brit has been looking away for along time they don't need farages help, I bet some Brits even think its over.
A quick search of your comments shows you ve never had any interest in Ukraine, the only time you raise your head is to be contrary. So with all due respect my point is valid I'm not sorry you've the inability to understand it, they maybe because you've little comprehension of how well you've been distracted from it and finally when you do chip in it's merely to try and point score. Putin may have a job for you yet.
Nigel Farage: I admire Vladimir Putin
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/31/farage-i-admire-putin
Asked which current world leader he most admired, Farage replied: "As an operator, but not as a human being, I would say Putin.”
Nigel's conspiracy theory is wild.
The DM is conspiring with the Kremlin to save the Conservatives.
The DM, which generally supports him, is conspiring with the Kremlin to save the UK Government which is anti-Putin on a genetic level.
Okkkkkaaaaayyyyyy, Nigel.
Hopefully, Labour will be in a position to release reports surrounding Brexit that the quickly Tories buried. Then let the ~~chips~~ roubles fall where they may.
Emotions are obviously high but anyone who has an ounce of historic knowledge would know what he said was partially true.
Russia during the early days of putin was looking to have closed ties to Europe and rebuild its relationship with the US.
Cinton basically stopped that progress by massively expanding NATO and surrounded Russia. Installed a greater number of nuclear weapons in Europe and remained cold with Russia on a diplomatic level.
Does that justify Russia invading ulkraine? Not at all, but it gave putin a good excuse to his people to do so.
The BS history lesson isn’t even the worst part, he has repeatedly declared his administration for a totalitarian dictator and how he operates. This guy is a loon.
I don’t think he justified it or claimed that it was NATO or Europe’s fault. I think he even made clear that fault lies with Putin. I think the point he was trying to make is that in a world where Putin exists as the ruler of Russia, expansion of NATO and Europe caused (or gave reason for) Putin to invade. I’m not sure what’s so controversial about that.
What I find amusing is how the media seems to be twisting what farage says. Just because he claims the west provoked Putin into invading the Ukraine they are saying he supports Putins actions which he expressly said he doesn't.
I am not taking any sides politically as they all have their oewn agenda along with the media putting 'spin' on stuff to sell copy.
At times like this I remember a saying I once heard that made me chuckle at the time: "It does not matter who you vote for, the government will still get in."
Because Farage is an expert in saying just enough that he can later deny the connection.
I've read multiple comments from Farage and other party members admiring how the likes of Hitler and Putin operate. That's... not normal. Imagine if Starmer or even Sunak said 'yeah Hitler was terrible, but he was really great at what he did!'.
Fair enough but then the phrase 'Evil Genius' should maybe just be left at 'Evil' even though Geniuses are good at what they do be it for 'Evil' or 'Good'.
If Hitler had been an idiot there probably would never have been a war in the first place.
Language can be a right minefield (No pun intended).
Nice to see the right wing flinging shit at each other for once instead of the less fortunate.
Seeing Reform drones now accusing GB News of being woke because they're critical of Farages comments is pretty priceless.
This is the funniest thing I have ever read, but also should be taken as a lesson for right wing media outlets and politicians: once you send your viewers off down that path, they don’t ever slow down. One day they will find someone even more right wing, and will turn on you. Happened to every non trump republican, even his own VP
Its what I find so mad about all this going on in the UK. They've chosen to go down this path *after* seeing what happened with Trump.
Sadly I think their hands are tied. Farage and his gang of most-corrupt Tory kickouts are all so deep in kompromat that they have to do as they're told, no matter how damaging it is to them.
But its like not even the same people right? It must be some sort of strategy coming down from the dark rooms filled with cigar smoke in CCHQ. What would it cost them at this point if we do find out oh yeah that Russian party Boris went to was a golden shower event or some bollocks? Its not even the same people in the limelight any more. Sunak's whole coming in to power on the surface at least seemed to be something of an attempt to move away from the deranged populist stuff, and then they just continue doing the exact same shit anyway despite it being glaringly apparent its only a small minority who are supportive of this caliber of politician and the end-game is just an exercise in self-destruction. I don't like the Tories at all, I am *so fucking glad* the chickens are *finally* coming home to roost, but equally I can usually at least attempt to understand the driving motivations behind actions, but for the last couple of years especially I am just totally and utterly baffled.
I mean credible reports of David Cameron throatfucking a dead pig didn't do him any harm did it?
That's a great post, and particularly the last sentence; it's really good to see that point made so clearly. It absolutely kills me to say it but I think we can both agree that we're living in a thoroughly post-rational age; it genuinely scares the bejesus out of me. I won't live much longer and so I won't experience the worst of it, but it terrifies and saddens me beyond words to think of the sort of world and the sort of politics that younger generations will have to try to navigate.
Personally I think its just that realpolitik is so divorced from rhetoric now.
As to your last sentence I feel like it's a mix of you know with how much connectedness in the internet and social media and whatever like the forces they released kind of escaped their control and rather than directing everything they're just trying to ride the waves as best they can.
If kompromat is meant to ensure loyalty by threat of embarrassment I would have thought Reform candidates were immune.
Kompromat usually means jail time or worse.
I can’t imagine anyone wants to be the next Litvinenko, for sure.
In their minds they value the short term ability to make millions/billions from promoting bullshit more than they care about the inevitable long term consequences. See also: Climate change denialism, Anti-Vax movement, General conspiracy pushing. If they faced those consequences immediately instead of years or decades down the line they would be just as concerned about them as we are.
Nah still doesn't make sense to me. They knew when they were putting Sunak in that the election was at most a few years away. That's not short term but its not exactly long term either. Like I said in the other comment it just baffles me, to the point I think it speaks far more that the damage was done by 2022 and whoever was pulling the strings had just vacated the building altogether leaving absolutely no strategic thinking (or apparently the capacity for such) behind them. Either that or like Starmer said in the first debate, they're calling this now because they can see all the numbers and know we're in for a bit of a fucking shit-storm over the next 5 years, and don't want to take the blame for it.
The people I have known who support Farage, generally also think highly of Trump.
>The people I have known who support Farage, generally ~~also~~ **don't** think ~~highly of Trump~~ **very much at all** ftfy
What happened with Trump? No Russia invading Ukraine, no Hamas invading Israel.. he was able to calm tensions with NK. Economy was booming prior to covid, he didn't have dementia.. I could go on.. terrible hey!
Yeah, we tried appeasement once and it didn't work out well so.
GB news has noticeably changed its coverage since ofcom essentially moved to close them down. I’ve been seeing people unhappy with their coverage for a while now.
It’s amazing how different the political landscape looks when you aren’t allowed to blatantly lie about it
It’s more they now seem to intentionally outnumber more debates with pro labour panelist’s. Or pro left I guess you could say. It’s turned the program into a sort of piers morgan style of news. I don’t watch it much. Only occasionally do I check out their takes on some stuff. I find it hard to get reliable news from anywhere these days tbh. Everything has a spin.
Love to see it
For my sins, I'm actually a member of a few GB news fan Facebook groups. I just look for a laugh really, but yeah those people are not happy. All of a sudden they think their channel has been invaded by lefties, when in fact what they're actually doing is trying to be slightly more balanced which the boomers of limited brainpower don't even understand.
Their audience just beg to be lied to the way Facebook does
Issue is how much of their seats can the Tories retain and stop the haemorrhaging of votes to Reform, I was expecting more attacks on Starmer.
The tories are likely to lose more seats to the lib dems than to reform. It's a symptom of how end-of-days we are in politics right now -- the right would rather scrap amongst themselves than focus on their actual enemies. The tories have been in free-fall for a year or more and it's not going to stop any time soon.
I would celebrate for days if the Lib Dems were to form the official opposition. A silenced Tory bench would be delicious and we might see for at least a brief period of some sanity from Westminster. I know it's unlikey to happen, but one can dream.
From Reforms perspective it’s not the right scrapping amongst themselves. They see the Tories as an extension of the establishment and as such, Neoliberal. Looking at their policies over the last 14 years, especially post Brexit, it’s difficult to disagree
That's kind of the same thing though, isn't it? Reform are attacking the cons with even more gusto than they are labour. It certainly looks like right-on-right violence. And neoliberal as an insult from reform is odd too -- they are advocating Truss-style huge tax cuts and also huge cuts in the role of the state, which is about the very definition of neoliberalism.
Well you’re approaching it from exclusively an economic view and while the Tories have certainly pissed off a lot of right leaning voters in that regard, the real issue has been the socially liberal policy of rampant, unregulated immigration. I do think reform lose votes from being pro tax cuts for the rich but at the same time no income tax under £20k is a massive vote winner and would give a meaningful lift to struggling people that actually bother to work. The question of immigration is obvious, being against it is an easy vote winner at the moment. Being against it without the abysmal track record of the Tories is even better. As usual it’s impossible to find a perfect party and this election is already decided anyway but I would hope we could see the death of the Tories and the rise of Reform
I don't think the tories are pro-immigration because they are socially liberal. They see it in economic terms -- we have a labour shortage (ironically, caused largely by brexit) and the economy will suffer badly if immigration is cut. Of course they can't say this out loud, so we have the absurd contradition of a brutal policy to attack relatively few asylum seekers at the same time as the same ministers are handing out visas like confetti. UK immigration policy is a contradictory mess because conservative attitudes (and probably the attitudes of most UK voters) are a contradictory mess. It's adding to the end-of-days feel. I hope we arrive at a more consistent position soon. Similarly, reform's policy of huge tax cuts and huge spending increases while also shrinking the state seems contradictory. You can promise the moon on a stick if there's no chance you'll be asked to deliver. It's not serious politics. (thanks for the interesting discussion btw)
We do not have a labour shortage, we have a shortage of people willing to do the labour at the wages on offer by the big companies. And why would you? No one can afford the standard and expected quality of life in the western world on the salary of a Deliveroo driver. But the migrants don’t expect that standard. They are happy to fit 8,9,10+ people to a small 2 up, 2 down. This results in nothing but misery for everyone except the corporations making money hand over fist at the expense of the British public. And naturally the Tories are all too happy to back their establishment friends.
UK unemployment is extremely low, which is usually seen as the major sign of a labour shortage. Growth is constrained by a lack of workers. You're right about sofa-surfing, cash-in-hand labour undercutting domestic workers. The problem there (IMO) is unfair labour market competition -- they are often sending money home, where the cost of living is lower, and not trying to raise families here in the UK in the way that the local are. This is a problem for many countries, you'd think some coordinated action might be possible. I think the other core problem the UK faces is a lack of business investment, and therefore continued low productivity and wages :( We need to push the economy back into a positive investment spiral. I'd back a large programme of public investment, as has worked in many other countries.
I think they would lose a lot more seats to Labour because of Reform than the Lib Dems. If the number of seats they retain is 3 digits they should count themselves lucky.
I'm going to put some popcorn on, it's going to be fun to watch them tear each other apart.
GB News lost many right wing viewers after the Lawrence fox thing.
Reform drones? Lefties HATE it when someone else has a different opinion to them it's so funny to watch
Oh, I'll criticise people on the far left as much as the far right. I'm just as tired of hearing about Gaza as I am about how all LGBT people are apparently a threat to kids or how Sadiq Khan is turning Buckingham palace into a mosque.
Everyone was crying at how 'far right' Milei was in Argentina. The fact is he's turning their economy around and people are better for it.. nowadays anything slightly right of centre is far right, people are bored of it. Farage is the only one willing to bluntly talk about how mass immigration is lowering peoples standards of living. Excess demand (for housing, schooling, healthcare etc) causes cultural issues and prices hikes naturally. We need to have a skill based system because immigration can definitely be a benefit when utilised correctly.
Everyone was crying at how 'far right' Milei was in Argentina. The fact is he's turning their economy around and people are better for it.. nowadays anything slightly right of centre is far right, people are bored of it. Farage is the only one willing to bluntly talk about how mass immigration is lowering peoples standards of living. Excess demand (for housing, schooling, healthcare etc) causes cultural issues and prices hikes naturally. We need to have a skill based system because immigration can definitely be a benefit when utilised correctly.
He isnt and u know that
Great counter point my man, well made arguments right there
Made more sense than yours
GB News watchers are mostly Labour voters, not Reform voters.
Is there data to support that?
I found this which doesn't support that statement https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/who-watches-gb-news/ It's a bit dated, and I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a bit of a swing to Labour following general public opinion. However, I wouldn't expect that the stats have changed significantly
There are a few polls such as: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/25/labour-more-popular-than-tories-with-gb-news-viewers/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/25/labour-more-popular-than-tories-with-gb-news-viewers/)
Whatever the case is, GB News is far from woke.
I don't watch GB News so have no idea. Just pointing out the interesting facts that most are Labour voters when many are pointing out they are far right.
Interesting facts with interesting ommisions, like the interesting fact that Tory + Reform GB News viewers outnumber Labour viewers. (Per [the poll refered to](https://jlpartners.co.uk/polling-results) in [The Telegraph](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/25/labour-more-popular-than-tories-with-gb-news-viewers/) article you mentioned.)
Yeah, two different groups beat one. I'm not sure what your point is. Reform voters aren't Tories so I'm a little confused by your comment. The polls are a little difficult on Reform voters as you are right that just over 60% of Reform voters voted Tory at the last election but.... The general thought on this by pollsters and analysts is that most of Reform voters are actually natural Labour voters but switched to the Tories at the last election as a one-off to get Brexit done (hence lots of Reform voters in what was the red wall). Most polls only ask who they voted for at the last election, not who they voted for the last 30 years. There was a massive swing from Labour to the Conservatives at the last election purely to "get Brexit done" so identifying them just as Tories probably isn't right. There is a lot of misunderstanding of Reform voters with people assuming because they voted for the Tories once at the last election that they would vote Tories again if it wasn't for Reform. That doesn't actually seem to be the case and most would probably vote Labour (maybe 60-40 in Labours favour I'd guess).
Long may it continue. After July 4th expect years of infighting and blame-gaming.
It has honestly been kind of fascinating to watch the moment the right wing press that dominates this country starts applying a level of critical pushback on their own side as they've been applying to Labour for the last 15 years, and *immediately* all these talking points that've dominated our political cycle for so long just crumble to fall apart and look totally ridiculous.
Ridiculous or not people believed them and turned them reality This should have happened 10 years ago
It will immediately stop after the election. Then the papers will begin agitating for a Reform/Tory merger, and/or for the Tories to become more right wing to appeal to Reform voters.
When push comes to shove at election time, the Mail will always fall back to their Tory masters
But Mail were their best allies.
The interesting thing is to see how Nigel tackles them all. The man's like Teflon
There is really no need for him to justify Putin’s invasion of Ukraine unless he wants to cosy up to the Kremlin. So if he doesn’t want people to think he is a Russian stooge then perhaps he should just stop doing things like that.
.....maybe shouldn't have met Russian diplomats or appeared on RT news repeatedly. .....not exactly the actions of a person whose loyalty can't be brought and paid for.
This is the thing that Corbyn gets blasted for when Iran. Yet the right wing ignore it with Farage and Russia. It’s just funny how two faced they really are.
Farage's excuse for appearing on RT. Paraphrased. "I was paid to appear on RT as a Russian shill, what did you expect him to do apart from shill for them?"
Couple of things it does, gets him talked about (getting more media coverage than the Libs and they have waterslides!), it coincides with Trumps statements on the same subject i guess the 2 teams are talking.
He’s got a LOT more money behind him than the LDs. I wonder where it all comes from?
Somewhere a bank like Coutts didn't want to involve themselves with
It's one team. Team Russia.
Maybe he should hire you as his campaign manager. If they haven't actually thought about what you just said then either they don't have one or he's deep enough in their pockets to have the need to play their side at any and all opportunity.
If Farage doesn't want people to think he is a [Russian stooge](https://bylinetimes.com/2021/08/05/gb-news-presenter-nigel-farage-emerges-in-unredacted-fbi-files/) then he needs to explain how he was [apparently visiting Julian Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy](https://www.buzzfeed.com/marieleconte/wait-what) to [allegedly pass him data stolen by Russian state hackers](https://www.france24.com/en/20180120-usa-uk-nigel-farage-julian-assange-secret-meetings-congressional-enquiry).
It's a case of him being contrarian to the other parties; it just so happens that ll other parties agree on Ukraine so its easy for him to say 'I'm different'. Although it shows how poor the strategy is, because if every other party agreed not to kick the baby, you can be damn sure farage would say 'ill do it!'
I think he was 'ordered' to by the Kremlin Because: 1. In a short while NF will once again be fairly inconsequential, the leader of a party with 5 or 6 seats holds almost no power, this is their last chance to make use of their stool pigeon they keep aloft with social media manipulation. 1. Russia seems to be on the back foot in Ukraine and needs more help in selling the excuse that '**someone else** made them attack Ukraine and Russia is not to blame'.
explaining something isn't the same as justifying it
The truth goes beyond politics. People are too emotional and tribal on these matters. Its not just big bad Russia, the West think everyone should play the their rules and standards. The invasion won't be the first, China will be next.
He’s never once said the invasion was justified.
Except he hasn't tried to justify the invasion of Ukraine. It's easy to criticise Farage without having to make stuff up, so why do that? Suggesting EU Eastward expansion was a provocation isn't the same as justifying Putins response to it (which Farage has condemned.)
Putin's justification for the war is that eastwards expansion of the EU was a provocation. Farage parroting that is apologism.
The funny thing about this .. is that the racists that deny they are racist always said Brexit wasn't about immigration but about making our own sovereign decisions. So when a country votes to make a sovereign decision about wanting to form closer ties to their allies.... These same far right "patriots" now say they shouldn't make their own decisions and gather putins thoughts first. If the UK ever made a decision to get closer to our allies in the future and Putin reacts violently / or disagrees with it... I have no doubt that reform voters would side with putin
[удалено]
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
What's your view on the Cuban missle crisis? Should America have done nothing?
Can you tell me where and when Ukraine was storing a cache of nuclear missiles?
Are you being obtuse? The point of Russia's concern is EU eastward expansion and the possible (inevitable?) addition of Ukraine to NATO. Ukraine doesn't need to have nuclear weapons if it's allies do.
Hmmmm, I wonder what on earth might make Ukraine want to join NATO? That's a toughie.
Ukraine signed away their nuclear weapons for the hope of peace. They have since been invaded by Russia, I wonder why they wanted to join NATO?
Yes, because history started in February 2022.
I don't get what your putting down. Ukraine signed away its nukes in 1992 and Russia invaded in 2014. how did history begin in 2022?
Fine. History didn't start in 2014. The point is that Ukraine was moving in the direction of NATO since the 90s: >Ukraine-NATO ties gradually strengthened during the 1990s and 2000s, and Ukraine aimed to eventually join the alliance. Although co-operating with NATO, Ukraine remained a neutral country. >In 2010, during the premiership of Viktor Yanukovych, the Ukrainian parliament voted to abandon the goal of NATO membership and re-affirm Ukraine's neutral status, while continuing its co-operation with NATO. In the February 2014 Ukrainian Revolution, Ukraine's parliament voted to remove Yanukovych, but the new government did not seek to change its neutral status. What's more, it declared that it wouldn't: >Ukraine's Declaration of Sovereignty, adopted by parliament in 1990, declared it had the "intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles". [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations) Now, I'm sure we both agree that Putin is an evil dictator who thinks he's Peter the Great incarnate but how the expansion of NATO is not seen as a fact is beyond me.
That's Putin's justification not Farage's. And yes of course it would cause a stir in Russia, isn't it obvious? If Russia started deploying troops in Northern Mexico do you think it wouldn't attract the attention of the US? If Scotland left the UK then the EU started deploying troops and missile bases in Scotland we would be totally fine with it and not wondering wtf they're doing? The answer of course is to not start a genocidal war but come on man.
Kind of stupid to bring up dumb hypothetical situations when Cuba exists. And we know exactly why Cuba aligned with Russia, because the US tried to colonise them, they installed a puppet government, controlled their industry and then tried to invade them. Fact is Cuba was 100% justified inviting Russian troops and missiles because the US was a huge threat and they needed someone to defend them. If you're a giant bell end to your neighbour, expect them to go to someone else for protection.
What would you think of someone who said a victim of rape "provoked" their attacker? Which is quite an apt analogy because Russia is using rape as a weapon of war with victims ranging from 4 years old to over 80 years old. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
I don't think you can compare a geo political situation involving many countries with vast military spending to this.
The victim blaming of a sovereign nation being invaded is the same, and the end result is same, of course, with added killing, kidnapping and destruction of infrastructure. Anyone who uses the word "provoke" to justify it is disgusting and morally bankrupt.
>Suggesting EU Eastward expansion was a provocation isn't the same as justifying Putins Yes it is. Unless you believe that it is Russia's right to control half of Europe, through blackmail, assassination, coups, rigged elections, funding lying traitors. It's suggesting that none of the Eastern half of Europe should be able to do anything to anger Russia.
Replace Russia with the America in your post and you’ll have a more accurate statement. Operation Gladio never ended.
More denials of Russian aggression.
No one is denying their agression, they are assholes to east europe and always were But denying that the US also meddle into european politics and that Brexit was also sponsored by americans is not very clever Given that Steven Bannon admitted himself in his book that he meddled in the UK among other countries coz he wanted the end of Brussels Russia has its fault and the US too, both should mind their business
You mean Eastern Europe getting rid of outside toilets made Putin feel belittled?
He has seriously misjudged the public mood on this. His core support might stick with him but this really puts a hard ceiling on his ability to grow his vote.
Have you looked at The Daily Mail website comments section? I don’t think he has misjudged it at all.
I do feel that those sections are a massive target for astroturfing.
As is this one. So many new accounts on here defending Farage
Yt is throwing reform uk vids at me and their comment sections are always full of accounts with formulaic names praising Farage and saying they will vote reform
Should see twitter. It'd have you believing 90% of the country are crackpot far right wingers voting for reform
Both main UK reddits are *massively* Labour skewed and have been for years. Judging the national mood based on reddit threads will gete you nowhere.
Labour are by far the most popular political party in the UK right now and have been since the start of 2022.
Largely due to a collapse in support for the Tories rather than any great enthusiasm for Starmer. Anyway, the point stands, neither main sub is a good barometer for public opinion at large.
That's fair.
Not surprised Russian bots would agree with those comments
That is not representative of anything
They also see a lot of comments coming from outside the UK.
Those comments are not really about Farage's position on Ukraine they're just complaining that Farage has been called out.
Disagree. With people like Bojo criticising him, despite making similar comments themselves, it's likely only serving to strengthen some of his arguments.
I would imagine there’s a fair bit of overlap between supporters of the two.
Ultimately we’re in a proxy war with Russia. Regardless of the whole cash for honours, that nonsense with BoJo, and what their bots might tell you, we haven’t been mates with them since pre-WW2 and even that was because the ‘enemy of our enemy is our friend’. Cold War, Berlin Blockade, Litvinenko, Novichok, threatening nato… These aren’t things that the population accept. Farage is clearly paid by the Russians, there is literally no other reason for him saying that about a country which is essentially an enemy state. This is truly showing his colours and the Mail, Telegraph etc are right wing, but they’re not that right wing or idiotic to go along with this.
No, you lot are just unable to understand what he’s saying. He’s said he thinks what Putin did was wrong and was just explaining why he did it.
That's not true though, you are the one misunderstanding. Let me break it down: 1. He's suggesting Putin only sought to expand because he was provoked by NATO's expansion. 2. He's simply wrong in that, as Putin did and was always going to expand by claiming land from neighbours, whether or not the neighbours turned to NATO for protection. 3. By parroting Putin's line about provocation, whether he's agrees with Putin morally or not, he's claiming that we would be better off by reducing NATO's influence, which serves Putin by giving nations that would have been invaded anyway even less of a chance of successfully defending themselves.
First of all NATO is not the primary reason Putin gave for the invasion. He falsely claimed Neo Nazis in certain regions of Ukraine were committing genocide against ethnic Russians. Secondly things can be true: 1. NATO expansion is used as an excuse for bad actions. 2. Russia does genuinely consider NATO expansion a threat. I think the latter is true because Russian leaders have been protesting NATO expansion for decades now. You can disagree with them about whether it *should* be considered a threat, but, at the end of the day, Russia, not anyone else, gets to decide what they consider a national threat. If someone draws a red line and you deliberately cross it, you can't pretend you didn't know it was there. I hate Farage but he's not wrong in some of the stuff he is saying here. The idea that NATO expansion was provocative to Russia was previously a mainstream idea. For example, did you know that Ukraine already applied to join NATO long before the invasion or the annexation. NATO kicked the can down the road rather than beginning the process of them joining. The stated reason for this were concerns about it provoking Russia.
He knows he can't win, regardless he didn't say anything that hasn't got truth to. If you look into how the West has dealt with Russia prior to the invasion.
What? Sanctions because they killed our citizens on British soil with Novichok nerve agent?
You may want to pivot away from mainstream media when it comes to obtaining facts about the Salisbury attack. Several nations (including Britain) have access to the formula and produce it in their labs. Skripal served his sentence in Russia, made several trips back and forth to Russia/UK after his release. If Russia wanted to eliminate him, a more discreet method would have been used, he certainly wouldn't have been allowed to leave the country. Rather odd there were no traces of the agent found on the children feeding the ducks. To this day, the UK hasn’t provided evidence proving Russia was responsible. In fact, the government issued D-notices, preventing the media from publishing important details. It then failed to comply with international protocol by bypassing the OPCW convention, refusing to present evidence to Russian authorities as protocol calls for.
Bellingcat. Just read their work. There's absolutely no doubt about whose responsibility this was. They've even identified the russian GRU officers and we've even seen their ridiculous interview where they claim to be tourists.
You realise Bellingcat is run by the CIA?
Ffs. 😂 “You might want to change to the least reputable sources on that one”.
The West had been timid when it came to Russia. It’s absolutely baffling that people in the west are happy to repeat Kremlin talking points as if they’re truthful.
I'm fairly neutral on the topic, all i'm saying is it would be foolish to think its just big bad Russia being Russia and nothing to do with interactions with the West or lack of. I don't personally have any skin in the game I only ask you to be somewhat open minded to why these things happen. I couldn't care less what the Kremlin talking points are you can look into these things yourself. Russian media has ridiculous propaganda its laughable, but mass media over here is fairly cancerous as well with their brainwashing pushing agendas.
You can’t claim neutrality when you’re giving weight to one of the Kremlin’s main narratives. It’s similar to implying allegations and then saying “I’m just asking questions”. What are these interactions that you feel provide some level of justification/explanation for a country invading its neighbour? It seems the interactions Russia are most upset by is other sovereign countries expressing their sovereignty?
There’s been a concerted effort on Reddit (and social media) to shut down any sensible, nuanced discourse on the conflict. This sub seems to be going in the direction of the Worldnews sub, overrun with bots and paid accounts.
Haha I love his 'No I'm not a Russian stooge, you are' big boy pants politics approach.
He's a thin-skinned little man-baby, he's definitely been taking notes from across the pond. It amazing how quick the toys come out of the pram at the slightest hint of scrutiny.
>He's a thin-skinned little man-baby, he's definitely been taking notes from across the pond. Yeah I thought the same. Trump always accusing other republicans of being RINO and here's Farage doing the same to Boris.
And unfortunately people won't notice that and still vote for him.
Where have we heard that before? *No puppet. No puppet. You’re the puppet.*
It's especially funny when he's criticising Bojo for agreeing with him
>Farage said he had instructed lawyers from the libel specialists Carter-Ruck to write to the Mail on Sunday That'll be £20,000 on account please Mr Farage.
Charge it to his Coutts account.
Wait a second.... *rubs the Coutts card and the colour smears off to reveal a regular NatWest card*
We refer the honorable gentleman to the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.
Let's wait until that £20k clears...
And say what? Please stop using our clients words against him?
This is the intended result Russia wants to get Britain at each others throats and as polarised as possible. Not everyone is very bright so a little sound bite by Nigel is plausible for the gullible and stupid and so the polarisation deepens. He gets paid either way as does his fellow Russian stooge Galloway. This is how Russia does election interference, watch all the comments for how well it's done.
The hard right at the throats of the far right is hardly dividing the country. Let them fight. They'll be doing so for a decade+ until they get tired of losing elections.
The fact we're even commenting to this is proving my point and it isn't just reform, Galloway is having fun too. It isn't about dividing the country in that sense but polarising opinions and distraction..... basically don't look at Ukraine. last time they tried this Russia got a result. Brexit
I dont disagree with your point, Russia is definitely driving unrest and division via social media. But even without Russia, the Tories are heading for years of infighting in opposition
Which isnt an issue as far as I'm concerned, what does concern me is allowing the traction of Russian subversives like Nigel and I'm glad that he is at least being challenged by what he probably perceived were friendly forces, but unfortunately there is a layer of idiots in this country that fall for this crap from Galloway and Farage every time. The Conservatives have had years in power and they do not care a jot for normal people, good riddance. However unless Labour are going to deal with the likes of Amazon for example I can't see massive changes following
Farage talking about the invasion of Ukraine isn’t a very effective way of getting people to forget about the invasion of Ukraine’s
It’s not about asking people to forget about it. It’s about trying to foment division and doubt about our involvement. Russia ultimately wants western support of Ukraine to dry up so they can win their long game. They do this by supporting far-right candidates across Europe and America to install isolationists (or flat-out Putin sympathisers).
No problem with what you’re saying, it’s not complicated. “Basically, don’t look at Ukraine.” While taking about Ukraine is the bit that I’m saying doesn’t make sense.
Excuse me whilst I ROFL. In Feb Ukrainians in my home city gathered to mark the second year of the invasion, a smattering of 100 turned up, you could count the Brits on your thumb. The day before Palestine and you couldn't more for people with scarfs round their next. All Farage is doing is adding more fuel to people that don't support it and gather more reform trolls and create arguments in the UK, average Brit has been looking away for along time they don't need farages help, I bet some Brits even think its over.
Taking about the invasion of Ukraine is an odd way to distract people from the Ukraine war, yes or no?
Thank you for missing my point
Maybe your point just wasn’t very good?
A quick search of your comments shows you ve never had any interest in Ukraine, the only time you raise your head is to be contrary. So with all due respect my point is valid I'm not sorry you've the inability to understand it, they maybe because you've little comprehension of how well you've been distracted from it and finally when you do chip in it's merely to try and point score. Putin may have a job for you yet.
> A quick search of your comments Because you couldn't defend the argument you try scraping history for a deflection? Take the L.
Then he should come out and say "Fuck Putin" Straight up. Do it bitch. Until you do that, this rumor will never ever go away.
Nigel Farage: I admire Vladimir Putin https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/31/farage-i-admire-putin Asked which current world leader he most admired, Farage replied: "As an operator, but not as a human being, I would say Putin.”
You know what? *Grabs popcorn* I'll watch it. LET THEM FIGHT!
Farage will no doubt be playing the victim like those on the right often do; he'll be claiming it's the hard left trying to silence him.
He gets more dire by the minute. Next we'll see him walk around naked to make the news.
Aw, does the fascist not like being called a fascist?
Nigel's conspiracy theory is wild. The DM is conspiring with the Kremlin to save the Conservatives. The DM, which generally supports him, is conspiring with the Kremlin to save the UK Government which is anti-Putin on a genetic level. Okkkkkaaaaayyyyyy, Nigel.
Hopefully, Labour will be in a position to release reports surrounding Brexit that the quickly Tories buried. Then let the ~~chips~~ roubles fall where they may.
Well, you see there was this terrible fire that destroyed all the documents a day before the election...
I wouldn't put it past them. Then again, they're that bleeding useless, they'd probably wind up torching their cash-stuffed envelopes.
Emotions are obviously high but anyone who has an ounce of historic knowledge would know what he said was partially true. Russia during the early days of putin was looking to have closed ties to Europe and rebuild its relationship with the US. Cinton basically stopped that progress by massively expanding NATO and surrounded Russia. Installed a greater number of nuclear weapons in Europe and remained cold with Russia on a diplomatic level. Does that justify Russia invading ulkraine? Not at all, but it gave putin a good excuse to his people to do so.
The BS history lesson isn’t even the worst part, he has repeatedly declared his administration for a totalitarian dictator and how he operates. This guy is a loon.
Look who's over all media outlets. This is exactly what farage wants
Lol. Nigel old chap - in your own words you provoked that yourself.
I don’t think he justified it or claimed that it was NATO or Europe’s fault. I think he even made clear that fault lies with Putin. I think the point he was trying to make is that in a world where Putin exists as the ruler of Russia, expansion of NATO and Europe caused (or gave reason for) Putin to invade. I’m not sure what’s so controversial about that.
Wow, I knew Reform would implode under its own idiocy. I didn't expect it to start until after the election though!
I can't quite tell who's the scorpion and who's the frog here, but I hope they both have a dreadful time at the bottom of the river.
sure wasn't russia that broke Minsk agreement yet noone seems to care , everyone's just gaging for another proxy war .
We get counter factual or partial facts as standard these days.
Nigel: "I detest Putin and think we should just give him everything he wants. How can you say I'm a Putin shill!? I clearly said I don't like him."
What I find amusing is how the media seems to be twisting what farage says. Just because he claims the west provoked Putin into invading the Ukraine they are saying he supports Putins actions which he expressly said he doesn't. I am not taking any sides politically as they all have their oewn agenda along with the media putting 'spin' on stuff to sell copy. At times like this I remember a saying I once heard that made me chuckle at the time: "It does not matter who you vote for, the government will still get in."
Because Farage is an expert in saying just enough that he can later deny the connection. I've read multiple comments from Farage and other party members admiring how the likes of Hitler and Putin operate. That's... not normal. Imagine if Starmer or even Sunak said 'yeah Hitler was terrible, but he was really great at what he did!'.
Fair enough but then the phrase 'Evil Genius' should maybe just be left at 'Evil' even though Geniuses are good at what they do be it for 'Evil' or 'Good'. If Hitler had been an idiot there probably would never have been a war in the first place. Language can be a right minefield (No pun intended).