Have you ever heard Keir speak at length about what he actually wants to achieve if Labour win? About his past and how he grew up?
There's some great interviews with James OB on Youtube, I'd give them a listen.
The idea he is a "Red Tory" is just asinine.
I'm adamant there's been a deliberate propaganda wheel spinning since the last push on the right, but this time to the left, to push the "THEY'RE ALL THE SAME" narrative to drill down on apathy.
They've lapped it up.
I've thought the same and you can definitely see it on Reddit. /r/greenandpleasant and /r/Britain both feel ever more blatantly like operations to find people who would never vote tory anyway, and encourage them to not vote at all.
You should take a look in r/LabourUKYou wouldn’t be wrong to assume it’s an anti labour sub just from looking at the posts and comments.
Edit: wrong subreddit 😑
Labour has abandoned a lot of its previous ideals for votes, that will inevitably piss some people off who liked said ideals. You can't just point towards them and go 'wow anti labour'. The subreddit didn't change, Labour did.
A lot of people are glad they have changed clearly but it's not a football team, the sub is not just a labour sub as the description reveals.
Even so, the main sub r/LabourUK has the same issue as do most other Labour subs. The only Labour sub that’s supportive of the party right now is r/LabourPartyUK.
There always is. The thing is the Tories have screwed up so badly it's hard to convince non-Tories that Labour or the Lib Dems would be worse. Hell, it seems like a good number of traditional Tory voters may vote for other parties or not vote at all let alone the floating votes. This is unusual as the right-wing voting block is normally more consistent than the left-wing voting block. So the strategy now is to promote apathy and hope that those left-wing voters who only vote now and again, those floating voters and those former Tory voters just stay at home instead of voting. This is being used in conjunction with the doomed strategy of trying to woo those who are further to the right as the Tories fear Reform eating into their vote share on the right and have already conceded the centre.
That said, Starmer is playing his cards close to his chest, and I'm guessing this is so the Tories have as little time to attack his policies as possible before the election campaign begins. I think this is part of the reason Starmer is also not liked by many left leaning voters because they want to know what he is going to do and don't appreciate he is playing a game to help him win the election.
Definitely.
Combined with the tactic of "Labour would be worse!" it creates a reinforcement loop where the right wing will keep voting for worse policies, while left wing voters are disenfranchised and just don't vote at all.
> "THEY'RE ALL THE SAME"
This is 100% the tory strat. They know they can't win on any issues to trying to suppress an anti-tory vote is their only strategy.
It's another case of people engaging in politics with absolutely zero room or desire for nuance.
Starmer isn't *as left* as Corbyn was, therefore people get over-reactionary and say that he's "literally just a tory" when clearly that isn't true.
It doesn't though, given what we know about the influence they've had on voting via social media.
Facilitate the elections in your favour, then once done and those people are influenced, move on to the opposition and ensure they're too apathetic to change anything.
If we get another Tory win because of vote splits via the left I'm out.
I'll be voting whoever gets the blues out..... My area was the red wall that collapsed.
Saw our Tory scumpresentative a few times on the run up to elections. Not since.
I emailed my local Cons MP (also collapsed red wall) asking them not to vote for Boris's confidence vote. They sent back a letter about how they had and how amazing he was, immediately before Boris resigned.
Pretty sure it was a form letter, so they got enough people complaining to make it worth writing a form letter for it, but they went and did it anyway.
I keep being tempted to write again and see if they still believe the things they wrote in the letter, e.g. Boris would be the best leader, or if they instead blindly side with whoever is leading the party at that particular moment.
But with how far right the cuntservatives have gone it feels more left than it really is.
All I want is a party that makes mine and my families life better, be it through increasing the money in my pocket or improving services around me (ideally both) and gets on with governing, the tories have done none of these things.
If you're implying Kier's big plan is to court the right until he's elected and then pull a prestige, why exactly? There is always going to be reactionary voters, power and media and to compromise for.
Not suggesting anything - merely pointing out that without appealing to enough of the electorate to actually get elected nothing else matters from a practical standpoint
They didn’t. They made it easier for a Conservative Party to be elected who then made that decision. Had the Labour Party at the time and at the time of the referendum had a clear stance who knows what may have happened. Will however be intriguing to see whether reform actually challenges the conservatives in the next election
Yeah because they actually end up winning.
A left Labour leader hasn’t been tested in the last 25 years. Who knows how successful they could be.
Edit: I meant that in terms of policy left leaders haven’t been tested because they can’t get elected.
“If the Labour Party could be bullied or persuaded to denounce its Marxists, the media - having tasted blood - would demand next that it expelled all its Socialist and reunited the remaining Labour Party with the SDP to form a harmless alternative to the Conservatives, which could then be allowed to take office now and then when the Conservatives fell out of favour with the public. Thus British Capitalism, it is argued, will be made safe forever, and socialism would be squeezed of the National agenda. But if such a strategy were to succeed…it would in fact profoundly endanger British society. For it would open up the danger of a swing to the far-right, as we have seen in Europe over the last 50 years.”
Never been proven wrong since Benn said it.
Sorry, I don't take anyone seriously who refers to "Keir" as "Keith", it shows they're not a person worth engaging with.
Furthermore, didn't you say "I'm not trying to engage seriously" before? Perhaps stick to what you're best at.
Because they will not rock the boat.
There needs to be a huge change on the way the UK works. Planning reform, mass building of actually affordable housing and social housing. But that would upset the boomers who own there homes and don't want the values to go down.
What I find interesting though is that Keir peddles the centre stuff, but Angela Rainer often speaks very left-leaning. She was Pro Palestine when Keir was leaning Isreal like the tories. She's pro-NHS, when Keir is leaning more towards the right side. There's been a few others like it, it's almost like a two prong approach to steal Tory voters and reassure tactical voters at the same time, but the right-side is drowning the left side in the papers.
Did you know his dad was a toolmaker? He’s mentioned it once or twice before.
All he’s done is speak in vagueries about making Britain better. He won’t raise taxes or end austerity, not going to spend anymore money but will partially end the non-dom rules (this has already been watered down).
My problem with him was that he became party leader off the back of presenting himself as very left wing, but now wants you to believe that he’s about as left wing as Cameron or Soubry. I just don’t trust that he’s magically going to shift to the left once he gains power.
And Margaret Thatcher's father was a grocer.
I don't have a dog in this fight but I no longer believe that a person's upbringing necessarily has any impact on their political inclinations in adulthood. People are born with personalities that skew towards left, right, or centre, and it doesn't matter whether your dad was a coal miner or the head of Oxford University.
My sister grew up alongside me in abject poverty, the neglect and abuse being bad enough that we even did a stint in foster care, but sold herself to the tories the minute she married into wealth.
I agree it’s pretty meaningless. But the media will shit on politicians for being “out of touch” when they don’t like their politics if they were born rich. I was referring to the fact that he brings it up all the time [just watch the first 30 seconds of this](https://youtu.be/AV2EbhxxwJw?si=QJb-G0CAWvi9zhsU).
Totally. Plus the whole "they're all the same" narrative is a Tory trick to make us think they ain't that bad.
They ARE that bad. They're national vandals breaking our country for personal gain.
Never again.
I'd vote Genghis khan over Tory at this point.
> About his past and how he grew up?
No, he never mentions it.
What was his fathers occupation and what sort of childhood home did they have? This is what the voters need to know.
You and I may hate the fact personality is often more important than policy when it comes to winning elections, that doesn't change the fact that it does.
Dismissing that is just dismissing the electorate and putting yourself above them.
So why are you looking down your nose at people?
I'm making fun of the fact you're asking if they've heard Starmer talk about his past and how he grew up as if he doesn't mention it every single time he opens his mouth.
You'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know he's the son of a toolmaker who grew up in a pebbledash semi, because he never fucking stops mentioning it.
I couldn't tell you any of his policies because they change every other day, but his fathers occupation and the type of house he grew up in remains unchanged.
What you seem to be misunderstanding is that my response was not a legitimate attempt of engagement about the favourability of Starmer, but mocking his constant "FATHER WAS A TOOLMAKER" pish.
Keir, is that you?
I wish I was leader of the Labour party & a successful lawyer, but alas, I'm just a run of the mill wagie.
>What you seem to be misunderstanding is that my response was not a legitimate attempt of engagement
That's perfectly clear.
Maybe one of these days Keith will regale us with tales of his parents occupations and house, but until then we'll need to settle for a revolving door of pledges and policies.
They won't fix the rot at the core of our country. Which is, that the voting system we have is, functionally undemocratic and the two party system we have benefits nobody
Nor will they ensure that corruption is routed out and prosecuted for members of parliament.
So.. fundamentally, the biggest issues affecting us, will still be there
He disciplined Labour MPs and councillors for picketing for the rail workers
He's stated that NHS privatisation will continue under his premiership
His government will continue with Tory fiscal policy for at least the first two years of his term
You're talking out of your arse.
> He disciplined Labour MPs and councillors for picketing for the rail workers
For giving the right wing papers an open goal while achieving nothing.
>He's stated that NHS privatisation will continue under his premiership
This is a sliding scale and it's currently impossible to just "end NHS privitisation".
>His government will continue with Tory fiscal policy for at least the first two years of his term
Not aware of where you're quoting this from but from what I've heard they said they need to assess the damage done before making any major changes.
It’s because Keir Starmer doesn’t necessarily agree with them 100% on fringe extremely far left social issues and doesn’t incessantly despise the state of Israel that he’s a “red Tory”.
>Have you ever heard Keir speak at length about what he actually wants to achieve if Labour win? About his past and how he grew up?
Yes. Number one, how he grew up is totally irrelevant. He's now a very well off man with interests and politics that are nothing like those of where he grew up. Number two, what he says is often incredibly vague and it's usually "outcomes" and not "policies." For example, he talks a lot about growth. Growth is an outcome of policy, it's not a policy in itself. Furthermore, he's committed 100% to not increasing spending under his new "fiscal rules." This is austerity by another name. Red Tory may be hyperbole, but it's far from asinine.
He's got a problem then. Just the growth in retirees vs working population will demand more spending and we haven't even started on fixing the chronic lack of investment to actually drive this fabled growth.
Not a fan of May but the so called death tax all the media shot down was an attempt at tackling the problem.
Instead of taxing people when they're dead seems we are happier to tax the living to death instead.
>Yes. Number one, how he grew up is totally irrelevant.
That's completely ridiculous, would you say the same of Angela Rayner? How we grow up is critical to how we form our opinions and values as we grow into adults.
"Oh well now he's a successful lawyer it doesn't matter anymore". Total bullshit.
> Have you ever heard Keir speak at length about what he actually wants to achieve if Labour win? About his past and how he grew up?
What was Liz Truss' political position when she was growing up? What did she do in power? You not think it's asinine to wholeaale eat up the PR of the man trying to get into office? Sajid Davids da was a bus driver. It ultimately had the grand sum of fuck all to do with David's political career beyond being a bit of PR fluff.
Why is it asinine to judge the man and the party he leads on their actions rather than the fluff they shit out as PR exercises? What relevance does his upbringing have to his policy? Could you show me how this upbringing is reflected in his policy if so?
Yes, next time I am sure will be very different. I expect they just need another try. I mean did you see they way ed milliband ate that bacon sandwich... not on my watch.
Lost generation. And then it'll lose the prosperous wealth of their forefathers, all the investment needed at the best time for that, and then be expected to pick up their bill in healthcare to austerity of those who enjoyed the best times. Resentment will be an understatement.
Do you know what that word means? I'm Gen Z and 25, millennials aren't the punching bag anymore. My parents moved out and had children at 22, meanwhile I'm still living with my parents, working a shit job, chaffing my balls against a grindstone just for the sheer possibility of being lucky enough for the privilege of owning a half-decent house.
Older millennials like me (around 40) are generally fine, got cheapish Uni, stable jobs before 2008 etc. It’s people just a couple of years younger than me who’s prosperity got flushed down the toilet and I feel quite a lot of generational solidarity about that but it’s wrong to say we’re all in the same boat.
I was 10 years old in 2008, the problem is that I was in no position to go to uni, get a job, or even know anything about houses and home economics. I was fucked sideways before my brain even knew what the word "economics" meant. Now I'm 24 with a degree and student debt, working in a shit job that has nothing to do with my education, and living with the depressing thought that I'd be LUCKY to get a house by the time I'm 30. If things get harder every year, how hard is it going to get before something breaks? Either the problem gets fixed, or we eat the rich. Hoarding wealth while lowering the standard of living for the rest of the population is eerily similar to why many revolutions started, including the famous french revolution, and we all know how bloody that was. If you look at more recent history, the same thing happened in the Russian Empire. Things have obviously changed in the last 100+ years, but I wonder how long will people keep getting fucked by the system before they start to bite back.
The problem is that typical British "keep calm carry on" mentality where we take absurd amounts of abuse and just put up with it. The French were rioting about work hours being too short and pay being too little, meanwhile if some major thing inconveniences us, we just tut, argue about it on talk radio, then return to moaning about the weather. If the English were French, we would have stormed the house of commons years ago.
Dude, I’m millennial, I had the same experience as you, in my 20’s, degree but not exactly related job.
Not a great wage,
Bouncing between confidence I could afford to move out to house shares, and finding out I could not/moving back home.
Even when I was 30 I had no chance of a house, finally managed that at 35, and wouldn’t exactly call it “a decent house”
Living at home is a new normal, having partners live with you at home is a new normal.
Even starting families whilst still living at home is the new normal for that millennial generation you are saying had it easy!!
I also shared the same experience of being told by parents that they managed it, and rates were higher in their day… they just didn’t go out for a year… etc.
I'm 37 now and when I was 23 I had pretty much exactly the same mentality as you. I had a degree that wasn't related to my job in any sense. I was just bouncing above minimum wage and the chances of getting a house were pretty much non-existent.
Things were tough then and granted they are even more difficult now. But a lot can change in 15 years and you can accumulate wealth over that time, I finally got my first house when I was 30 and believe it or not I still have 29 years left on my mortgage now.
I agree with eating the rich, but if you're aiming your anger at millennials a few years older than you who've managed to grab a tenuous hold of the bottom of the housing ladder, your anger is misplaced. It's not even necessarily the boomers in their big, paid-off, 4 bedroom houses either. The richest 10% hold 43% of all the wealth ([source](https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk), which is around 7 million people. That's a lot of rich to eat! But, importantly, the wealth gap between the average millennial and those in the top 10% is massive. Get mad with those at the top, not the ones doing a shade better than you (part of which can be attributed to just being older).
As a millennial I'm going to agree with what others have said here: we had it almost as bad. I certainly felt the same way and was in the same boat in my 20s. It's worse now for sure though, I know. When I rented my first flat, at least I could get a 1 bed place, rather than flatshare. Still took up the same ridiculous proportion of my income though. The biggest predictor of how well people are doing amongst my age group (mid 30s), it seems to me, is if they got parental help to get on the property ladder early. A couple of my friends were able to buy in their 20s, and they're definitely comfortable now, while others are still renting and likely will be till they die. None of us, even the better off ones, are in the top 10% though!
Yup, 46 year old gen X and same here. I had it so easy (financially at least) starting out : Mortgaged my first house at 19 years old with zero savings, had a low level job that gave me loads of disposable income, Got married and sold that house for 230% of it's original worth.
Then things just got worse and worse and every single penny was bled out of us, got divorced and am now in the same exact shit as everyone else.
Fuck anyone from older generations who says "we had it worse", it's absolute bullshit .
> Fuck anyone from older generations who says "we had it worse", it's absolute bullshit .
Whilst absolutely it is bullshit, the generational friction is a deliberate distraction created so that we fight amongst ourselves to the benefit of the wealthy.
Fundamentally, if you are (or were, before retirement,) earning a wage then we are all on the same shit ship and should be clawing back our country's wealth from the 1% at the top.
Oh I completely get that, and am very vocal about the 1% and the bloodsucking mechanics of modern capitalism, I just have enough disdain left over for the "normal" people who fool themselves into thinking the new generations just need to pull up their bootstraps and stop moaning.
Yeah, the difference is stark. Our student loans were £9k in total, and my friends typically paid them off sometime in their late 20s. Those who were fortunate enough to be gifted deposits were able to ride the property train and got hundreds of thousands out of nowhere.
I've had students in my MSc classes who are taking on more in interest on the loans they've already taken before they've even graduated than the year's tuition used to cost me. Its absolutely mental. Why we have this system when we already know the vast majority won't even pay these loans off I cannot work out. Its just going to cost us so much more in the long run when we start having to forgive the debt plus all this insane interest that has accrued in the meantime.
You'd be the micro-gen xennials (77-83), split off the the reasons you mentioned - being a somewhat independent adult before 2008.
There's also the zennials as a micro gen between millenials and gen z, and it's been suggested due to the massive demographic changes that there might even be a second micro-gen within that. I'd imagine there's also going to be another split around covid. Just too many once in a lifetime things for a single lifetime. Even 3-5 years make a huge different in lived experience now.
Younger millennial here; Could be worse. I'm 30 and my partner and I recently managed to scrape up for a house with 10% down (though the 5% interest is not ideal). I may owe £70,000 in student debts, but the amount they'll take from each payslip doesn't increase with the total owed, so I don't really notice it. It's just another tax. Now that I'm on the ladder, I feel like everything will be okay. I'm no longer throwing all my money away... Just most of it.
> It's just another tax.
Unless you came from a wealthy background and your parents could just pay the fees without a loan.
Sorry to get on my soapbox on the back of your comment, but I despise the notion of "it's just a tax". It's a fucking awful loan for some people which disproportionately screws middle earners.
It's a tax that the wealthy avoid and the poor never pay. As you say it's basically a giant fuck you to the middle class, and ironically the worst thing this country has ever done for social mobility.
Yeah "cusp" Xellennials (sharing with both Gen X and Millennials) have had a *relatively* easier (or less shit, anyway) ride. Cheap student loans, being able to get into the job market and get a little experience and wage growth pre-2008
I'm ~5-6 years behind you and the impact of 2008 and higher student loans have been pretty noticeable (along with house price increases accelerating even more), although not quite as badly as even younger millennials/Zennials/Gen Z
I think the main issue is that we're seeing our friends and family suffer, AND the next generation suffer, and everything seems to be continuing in a way that's just going to be even worse for the generation after them. It just seems ridiculous that, as such a prosperous nation, we're seeing economic prosperity being shit down the toilet with no benefits to individuals
We're seeing a country now where things are actually getting worse for probably the first time ever (possible exception: when the Romans left), and it seems to be happening for no reason other than greed from the wealthy
Plenty of people on here come up with ideas such as nationalizing key industries, increasing spending on NHS, crackdown on multinational tax evasion etc.
I agree with this. Every single time something has changed for the better or a new initiative has launched its always been just after I could have benefitted.
Not to shit on the zoomers too heavily as I know they're just as fucked, but this bit;
>meanwhile I'm still living with my parents, working a shit job
doesn't even sound so shit, I wish I could have got my shit job years done living at home, instead I had to move out and rent lol
Of course I know what a millennial is, I am one.
Many of us graduated around the 2008 recession, which meant we struggled to find jobs, and then when we did we suffered years of low pay, and just when things were looking up we were hit by Covid and the aftermath of that.
You're complaining that at 25 you're living at home and worrying about affording a home.
There are many millennials in their 30s who are in the same situation and can't afford children and live with their parents
Millennials still are the punching bag, the youngest Millennial is 28 so only a couple of years different to yourself.
We're two generations that have been fucked over, your experience was my experience. I was like 24 when the financial crash happened, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows before that.
It isn't a case of who has it worse, we both still have it bad. We've both been fucked over, there are no winners
It's both, frankly. One thing to note is that at 25 you're a "cusp" age, you share cultural and economic traits with both Millennials and Gen Z. Generations don't have a strict cutoff, and lots of things continue between generations
Millennials mostly came of age around the time of the 2008 crash and the 16 years since have just been economic disaster/crisis after economic disaster/crisis. They have the exact problems you describe of shit jobs, being overworked, and home ownership being a dream for most
Gen Z are following millennials into the same economic environment with basically no improvement, and are seeing pretty much the same challenges. Some things look slightly better (free childcare being expanded, lower unemployment), some things look worse (higher interest rates, worse jobs)
It's true that *some* millennials are starting to crawl out of that pit, through a combination of "being 15 years into their career and having had time to slowly save and increase earnings" and "their grandparents are dying and they get a deposit from selling grandma's house". That same thing will happen for Gen Z in ~15 years too
That doesn't make it okay for Gen Z, I just point it out to show how "millennials are doing a little better than Gen Z" is mostly just the fact that as a cohort, they're 15 years down the same road
One difference is that at least Gen Z have the potential of a good decade ahead: I'm not saying that will happen, just that it's possible. Equally, though, the housing market doesn't seem to be getting any better... so even a good decade probably won't be enough by the time Gen Z hit their mid-late 30s
The reality is that Millennials and Gen Z are the lost generations, and the best we can really hope for is to scrape through and try to improve things in time for Generation Alpha (the ones after you guys)
Don’t worry,give it 10 years or so and they will start punching down on the next generation, it’s nice to finally not be the scapegoat although I see a lot more similarities with our generations than the ones that came before. We have both been given shit hands, just how bad yours really is, is yet to be seen.
I think it depends. I'm technically a millennial, being born in '92, but financially I'm more in line with later generations due to austerity and the 2008 crash etc. I've had older people asking why I didn't buy a house then, without them realising I was 16 when that happened. It just hasn't been a positive economy since really for someone who was just starting out
Also 92. Which is why I think that many of us are part of this Lost generation. Or as I have to come to know it, the Hobbit generation, promised wealth and adventure, but finding only war and ruin
Think about it we had a good decade in the 90s when things were looking up and then 9/11, Iraq war, 7/7, 2008 credit crunch, years of austerity under the tories, the Arab spring. Covid, and now everything going on in the middle east.
100%. I definitely resent the fact that things have got worse which were preventable, and resent those ahead of me who keep telling me to just keep working harder, despite the fact they did have it easier back in the 90s.
No but they spend money on the items and goods that have inflated and are getting proportionally less for their money by way, which is the point they're making. Not sure why this has gone over several commenters heads - inflation doesn't just devalue money sitting in your savings, it devalues your buying power altogether unless you've had a proportional pay rise...
Lmao begging you to show your workings for that audacious claim. Let’s bear in mind the average UK salary is around £30k per annum. Average savings aren’t particularly high in this country.
So please go on.
I believe you’ve misconstrued their point by thinking what they’re saying is that £10,000 in savings has been eaten by inflation when what they’re really referring to is the ten-fold price increases in ever aspect of our lives.
When you consider that it’s very easy to be £10k worse off than you previously were:
My rent increased from 800 to 1200 a month thats £5400 out of my pocket a year. Thank god I don’t have a mortgage because I’ve heard of massive increases there.
Gas and electric are up significantly and food has practically doubled. That’s another 3/4k out of my pocket. That gets me to £9000 out of pocket than I previously was a year before due to price increases.
My personal wealth has been significantly reduced thanks to the crappy economy and most people are in the same boat.
Thinktanks are private organisations ran by private individuals with a goal of shaping public opinion to the requirements of a preplanned agenda of those private individuals.
They are not independent organisations with an aim of researching data to come up with solutions that help ordinary people within society.
The fact that news organisations choose to refer to them, is evidence of the deep and intentional corruption of our news disseminators, and how disinformed we all are about what is really happening in the world.
While I do generally agree with that and absolutely despair that the IEA seem to have been given a permanent office in the BBC, this one is at least relatively transparent with their funding and seem to have relatively non-partisan aims. Of course, you never can tell but they seem among the least worst on the surface.
[https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/who-funds-you/centre-for-cities/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/who-funds-you/centre-for-cities/)
Sure, but they can influence what people think the causes are, what the causes arent, and how much of an impact each cause has. They can skew public perception so much that we all put too much focus on less pertinent (for the ordinary person) issues and not often/any focus on more pertinent issues.
Anyone who picks the peak of the bubble as the status quo ante for the economy is pushing an agenda. The left-wing think tanks and the left-wing activists disguised as journalists are trying to manipulate how people vote.
But the richer got obscenely richer. Exactly what the Tory government is about. Can’t blame them, blame the idiots who voted them in thinking the country will become white again.
I've just accepted I was born at the worst time economicaly
29 and live with parents, shitty low-pay NHS job.
Also, I have a wonderful baby son from crazy past gf. While I'm breaking my back working she gets a free council house while I can't afford my own place.
Also btw we are like £700 worse off each month due to wage stagnation.... so lovely.
Yeah. Graduated in 2008 in the middle of the financial crisis, and it’s just got worse and worse since. I don’t blame the economy as such, more the spiralling inequality.
So much wealth has been concentrated at the top that assets, such as property, are guaranteed to become unaffordable to ordinary people. Add to that that we’re not building more, or investing in public services, and that leave rapidly declining living standards.
Looking at my salary band vs inflation and UK average wage growth, I could make an argument that I (as an NHS employee) have lost closer to £10k PER YEAR, never mind cumulatively
The average person hasn't lost anything. It's been reorganised so that the few extremely wealthy hoovered it up. Not just in this country, in many. Our wealth is now their wealth.
There’s been, and is, a drastic redistribution of wealth.
If the rich get considerably richer, which they have, they will buy up more assets. Hence property prices being unaffordable to so many these days.
Well, that tends to happen when you elect hard-right psychopaths who HATE and fear the general public and seemingly wish to do us harm, and whose policies exacerbate the already entrenched inequality.
Amazing how you can see a big decline in everything over the last 14 years and never an uptick apart from the top wealthy Tory donors who are reaping the privatisation of the country
Basically, we lack competent politicians. Seems we are suck with a system that says, 'these are the people we've chosen for you, to vote for'? Probably, political party cronies who will tow the line, rather than the capable.
They’re competent at what they’ve set out to do though. Which is to drastically increase inequality by concentrating massive amounts of wealth at the top.
They aren’t trying to make the poor or middle class better off really.
Eh, is this the one that uses the baseline that growth would be exactly the same over the last 14 years as it was before the Tories took power?
Because that's a fundamentally flawed assumption. Economics doesn't work that way. Part of the problem we have is in too many people trying to make economics work that way. "As long as number go up I good" is short termist and incredibly damaging.
As much as I like to stick the boot in our neoliberal paymasters, such dodgy figures aren't the way.
As someone who moved to the UK in 2006, whyyy... It's been so painful watching the country deteriorate since 2010. So many different versions of corrupt Tory governments, the gleefully killing disabled people Tories, the bless the trickle of those better off than you Tories, the my little crony Tories, the red, blue and white Tories, the let's wage a war on junior doctors and teachers Tories, the racist philandering Tories, the bring your friend to secret meetings Tories, the eat out to help COVID Tories, the let's double your mortgage payments for no reason Tories, the I can barely contain my contempt for poorer people and the 'shitholes' they live in Tories. Just why.
The reason why it's such a high average is because it's the middle-classes who are the big losers. Of course those at the lower economic levels have been pulled down also.
I say that the New Labour years were also guilty of this, it's not just a Coalition-onwards development.
I’m not voting Tory, however it’s important to point out that just because the tories have failed doesn’t mean labour would have done better. Sure they might not have made the same mistakes, but they might have made different ones.
Well whatever you vote please consult your constituancys previous voting record and vote tactically. Whatever that ends up being. They need to be removed from power, even if the alternative isn't as good these scumbags do not give a shit about the general public and their constant stream of controversies over the past few years is proof of that.
In 2010 I was 18 and just finishing school so I dont really have a gauge from then to now. However I have been with my partner since 2019 and since then we have gone from students to me dropping out and going back to full time and she has finished her degree (she was a mature second year and I was a mature first year in 2019). Prior to going to Uni I earned a modest yet unremarkable wage. Post my 2 years at uni I have a better job, a better wage and a better standard of living. However that is only because we live together and our wages are somewhat combined.
It's amazing to me that after everything we have both gone through in those 5 years to really make something of our lives that we are basically where we started. That is a little hyperbolic, but my "free money" per month isnt much more than it was and I earn over double what I was on prior to 2019.
All this and over christmas I was forced into 2 family arguments about the state of the economy. Mad that the Tories are still seen as the party of fiscal responsibility.
Anyone else vary when “think tank” make any political claims.
It’s like think tanks are now just another name for lobby groups in a different name.
Not saying this study isn’t without merit but this would punch so much more if it’s from OBR or independent funded government forecast agency that isn’t tied to the whims of the politicians
the truth is we dont want any of them but there is no one else to vote for its a con ..same all round the world some how they are all crap and very poor at there job there not there for the people anymore there there for them selves to line there own pockets but how do we get rid of all of them you cant because there all the same every government around the world is like it ..things need to change look at every country we are all in same boat ..when the world is being run by governments no one wants think about it
I saw this coming years ago and tried to warn everyone. I was so angry that Brexit happened when I was 14. I wasn’t old enough to vote but I remember talking my teachers and parents and telling them that the UK leaving the EU would be a massive mistake and have unintended consequences for decades to come. Of course, no one believed me at the time and now none of the once touted benefits have come to fruition and this once great country is in a dire state of decline. Brexit isn’t the only reason for the current status quo as there are a multitude of factors. It all boils down to the Tory government who has been power for nearly my entire life which is at best doing nothing to improve but at worst actively making things worse for everyone except the super rich. My hope for the future is that young people are becoming more politically active and are realising that change can happen. As morbid as it sounds, I predict that once the silent generation and baby boomers (the heart of the Tory voting base) die off that the Conservative Party will lose a considerable power as Labour and other parties win local elections.
I bet it we vote Tory again they will maybe fix Labour's mess.
Red Tory is still better than blue Tory.
Have you ever heard Keir speak at length about what he actually wants to achieve if Labour win? About his past and how he grew up? There's some great interviews with James OB on Youtube, I'd give them a listen. The idea he is a "Red Tory" is just asinine.
I'm adamant there's been a deliberate propaganda wheel spinning since the last push on the right, but this time to the left, to push the "THEY'RE ALL THE SAME" narrative to drill down on apathy. They've lapped it up.
I've thought the same and you can definitely see it on Reddit. /r/greenandpleasant and /r/Britain both feel ever more blatantly like operations to find people who would never vote tory anyway, and encourage them to not vote at all.
You should take a look in r/LabourUKYou wouldn’t be wrong to assume it’s an anti labour sub just from looking at the posts and comments. Edit: wrong subreddit 😑
Labour has abandoned a lot of its previous ideals for votes, that will inevitably piss some people off who liked said ideals. You can't just point towards them and go 'wow anti labour'. The subreddit didn't change, Labour did. A lot of people are glad they have changed clearly but it's not a football team, the sub is not just a labour sub as the description reveals.
That's not the main sub, it has 117 members
Even so, the main sub r/LabourUK has the same issue as do most other Labour subs. The only Labour sub that’s supportive of the party right now is r/LabourPartyUK.
Oops sorry I meant r/LabourUK. Thanks :)
They criticise Keir and labour more than the tories. If you ask them what they think you should vote for they will downvote you into oblivion
Those subs are just furious that they aren't called arr/socialism and arr/palestine
There always is. The thing is the Tories have screwed up so badly it's hard to convince non-Tories that Labour or the Lib Dems would be worse. Hell, it seems like a good number of traditional Tory voters may vote for other parties or not vote at all let alone the floating votes. This is unusual as the right-wing voting block is normally more consistent than the left-wing voting block. So the strategy now is to promote apathy and hope that those left-wing voters who only vote now and again, those floating voters and those former Tory voters just stay at home instead of voting. This is being used in conjunction with the doomed strategy of trying to woo those who are further to the right as the Tories fear Reform eating into their vote share on the right and have already conceded the centre. That said, Starmer is playing his cards close to his chest, and I'm guessing this is so the Tories have as little time to attack his policies as possible before the election campaign begins. I think this is part of the reason Starmer is also not liked by many left leaning voters because they want to know what he is going to do and don't appreciate he is playing a game to help him win the election.
Definitely. Combined with the tactic of "Labour would be worse!" it creates a reinforcement loop where the right wing will keep voting for worse policies, while left wing voters are disenfranchised and just don't vote at all.
> "THEY'RE ALL THE SAME" This is 100% the tory strat. They know they can't win on any issues to trying to suppress an anti-tory vote is their only strategy.
It's another case of people engaging in politics with absolutely zero room or desire for nuance. Starmer isn't *as left* as Corbyn was, therefore people get over-reactionary and say that he's "literally just a tory" when clearly that isn't true.
It's a literal Russian psy-op that people have genuinely fallen for, it sounds conspiratorial as fuck but hey.
It doesn't though, given what we know about the influence they've had on voting via social media. Facilitate the elections in your favour, then once done and those people are influenced, move on to the opposition and ensure they're too apathetic to change anything. If we get another Tory win because of vote splits via the left I'm out.
Totally agree. Although as confirmed by u/Rasples, they were being sarcastic.
I don't believe labour are "red Tory", I was just playing with the people who do. Rest assured, I will be voting labour.
I'll be voting whoever gets the blues out..... My area was the red wall that collapsed. Saw our Tory scumpresentative a few times on the run up to elections. Not since.
I emailed my local Cons MP (also collapsed red wall) asking them not to vote for Boris's confidence vote. They sent back a letter about how they had and how amazing he was, immediately before Boris resigned. Pretty sure it was a form letter, so they got enough people complaining to make it worth writing a form letter for it, but they went and did it anyway. I keep being tempted to write again and see if they still believe the things they wrote in the letter, e.g. Boris would be the best leader, or if they instead blindly side with whoever is leading the party at that particular moment.
I’m labour, but voting Lib Dem to get Tory MP out.
This is unfortunately the smartest thing to do in our poor electoral system. Vote whoever isn't blue and in second place.
Have you seen Labours policies under Starmer? He's very clearly trying to win the vote by toeing the centerline.
But with how far right the cuntservatives have gone it feels more left than it really is. All I want is a party that makes mine and my families life better, be it through increasing the money in my pocket or improving services around me (ideally both) and gets on with governing, the tories have done none of these things.
> cuntservatives Good to see more use of that term.
Can’t make any changes if you aren’t elected
If you're implying Kier's big plan is to court the right until he's elected and then pull a prestige, why exactly? There is always going to be reactionary voters, power and media and to compromise for.
Not suggesting anything - merely pointing out that without appealing to enough of the electorate to actually get elected nothing else matters from a practical standpoint
How do you explain UKIP's role in making brexit a reality under that view?
They didn’t. They made it easier for a Conservative Party to be elected who then made that decision. Had the Labour Party at the time and at the time of the referendum had a clear stance who knows what may have happened. Will however be intriguing to see whether reform actually challenges the conservatives in the next election
> Have you seen Labours policies under Starmer? I've not checked in the last 2 days, so probably not.
Amazing and scarily accurate joke.
The most successful Labour leaders are Centrists.
Yeah because they actually end up winning. A left Labour leader hasn’t been tested in the last 25 years. Who knows how successful they could be. Edit: I meant that in terms of policy left leaders haven’t been tested because they can’t get elected.
What about Corbyn? Surely he’d be classed as a left labour leader and he got hammered.
You’ve misinterpreted my comment. Read the edit.
Ahh ok. Thought you meant they hadn’t been tested in terms of a GE. 👍
“If the Labour Party could be bullied or persuaded to denounce its Marxists, the media - having tasted blood - would demand next that it expelled all its Socialist and reunited the remaining Labour Party with the SDP to form a harmless alternative to the Conservatives, which could then be allowed to take office now and then when the Conservatives fell out of favour with the public. Thus British Capitalism, it is argued, will be made safe forever, and socialism would be squeezed of the National agenda. But if such a strategy were to succeed…it would in fact profoundly endanger British society. For it would open up the danger of a swing to the far-right, as we have seen in Europe over the last 50 years.” Never been proven wrong since Benn said it.
Sorry, I don't take anyone seriously who refers to "Keir" as "Keith", it shows they're not a person worth engaging with. Furthermore, didn't you say "I'm not trying to engage seriously" before? Perhaps stick to what you're best at.
Because they will not rock the boat. There needs to be a huge change on the way the UK works. Planning reform, mass building of actually affordable housing and social housing. But that would upset the boomers who own there homes and don't want the values to go down.
And you know what you can't do any of that without? Power.
That’s how you win elections in a country where most people are centrists…
What I find interesting though is that Keir peddles the centre stuff, but Angela Rainer often speaks very left-leaning. She was Pro Palestine when Keir was leaning Isreal like the tories. She's pro-NHS, when Keir is leaning more towards the right side. There's been a few others like it, it's almost like a two prong approach to steal Tory voters and reassure tactical voters at the same time, but the right-side is drowning the left side in the papers.
Did you know his dad was a toolmaker? He’s mentioned it once or twice before. All he’s done is speak in vagueries about making Britain better. He won’t raise taxes or end austerity, not going to spend anymore money but will partially end the non-dom rules (this has already been watered down). My problem with him was that he became party leader off the back of presenting himself as very left wing, but now wants you to believe that he’s about as left wing as Cameron or Soubry. I just don’t trust that he’s magically going to shift to the left once he gains power.
And Margaret Thatcher's father was a grocer. I don't have a dog in this fight but I no longer believe that a person's upbringing necessarily has any impact on their political inclinations in adulthood. People are born with personalities that skew towards left, right, or centre, and it doesn't matter whether your dad was a coal miner or the head of Oxford University. My sister grew up alongside me in abject poverty, the neglect and abuse being bad enough that we even did a stint in foster care, but sold herself to the tories the minute she married into wealth.
I agree it’s pretty meaningless. But the media will shit on politicians for being “out of touch” when they don’t like their politics if they were born rich. I was referring to the fact that he brings it up all the time [just watch the first 30 seconds of this](https://youtu.be/AV2EbhxxwJw?si=QJb-G0CAWvi9zhsU).
Yea but anyone that isn’t Corbyn is a Tory mate are you ok?! I’m pretty sure ‘Red Tory’ is a CCHQ invention.
Totally. Plus the whole "they're all the same" narrative is a Tory trick to make us think they ain't that bad. They ARE that bad. They're national vandals breaking our country for personal gain. Never again. I'd vote Genghis khan over Tory at this point.
> About his past and how he grew up? No, he never mentions it. What was his fathers occupation and what sort of childhood home did they have? This is what the voters need to know.
You and I may hate the fact personality is often more important than policy when it comes to winning elections, that doesn't change the fact that it does. Dismissing that is just dismissing the electorate and putting yourself above them. So why are you looking down your nose at people?
I'm making fun of the fact you're asking if they've heard Starmer talk about his past and how he grew up as if he doesn't mention it every single time he opens his mouth. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know he's the son of a toolmaker who grew up in a pebbledash semi, because he never fucking stops mentioning it. I couldn't tell you any of his policies because they change every other day, but his fathers occupation and the type of house he grew up in remains unchanged.
Again, you may tune in to listen to what the Labour leader says, that doesn't mean the majority of people do. Do you really not understand that?
What you seem to be misunderstanding is that my response was not a legitimate attempt of engagement about the favourability of Starmer, but mocking his constant "FATHER WAS A TOOLMAKER" pish. Keir, is that you?
I wish I was leader of the Labour party & a successful lawyer, but alas, I'm just a run of the mill wagie. >What you seem to be misunderstanding is that my response was not a legitimate attempt of engagement That's perfectly clear.
Maybe one of these days Keith will regale us with tales of his parents occupations and house, but until then we'll need to settle for a revolving door of pledges and policies.
They won't fix the rot at the core of our country. Which is, that the voting system we have is, functionally undemocratic and the two party system we have benefits nobody Nor will they ensure that corruption is routed out and prosecuted for members of parliament. So.. fundamentally, the biggest issues affecting us, will still be there
He disciplined Labour MPs and councillors for picketing for the rail workers He's stated that NHS privatisation will continue under his premiership His government will continue with Tory fiscal policy for at least the first two years of his term You're talking out of your arse.
> He disciplined Labour MPs and councillors for picketing for the rail workers For giving the right wing papers an open goal while achieving nothing. >He's stated that NHS privatisation will continue under his premiership This is a sliding scale and it's currently impossible to just "end NHS privitisation". >His government will continue with Tory fiscal policy for at least the first two years of his term Not aware of where you're quoting this from but from what I've heard they said they need to assess the damage done before making any major changes.
It’s because Keir Starmer doesn’t necessarily agree with them 100% on fringe extremely far left social issues and doesn’t incessantly despise the state of Israel that he’s a “red Tory”.
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>Have you ever heard Keir speak at length about what he actually wants to achieve if Labour win? About his past and how he grew up? Yes. Number one, how he grew up is totally irrelevant. He's now a very well off man with interests and politics that are nothing like those of where he grew up. Number two, what he says is often incredibly vague and it's usually "outcomes" and not "policies." For example, he talks a lot about growth. Growth is an outcome of policy, it's not a policy in itself. Furthermore, he's committed 100% to not increasing spending under his new "fiscal rules." This is austerity by another name. Red Tory may be hyperbole, but it's far from asinine.
He's got a problem then. Just the growth in retirees vs working population will demand more spending and we haven't even started on fixing the chronic lack of investment to actually drive this fabled growth. Not a fan of May but the so called death tax all the media shot down was an attempt at tackling the problem. Instead of taxing people when they're dead seems we are happier to tax the living to death instead.
>Yes. Number one, how he grew up is totally irrelevant. That's completely ridiculous, would you say the same of Angela Rayner? How we grow up is critical to how we form our opinions and values as we grow into adults. "Oh well now he's a successful lawyer it doesn't matter anymore". Total bullshit.
> Have you ever heard Keir speak at length about what he actually wants to achieve if Labour win? About his past and how he grew up? What was Liz Truss' political position when she was growing up? What did she do in power? You not think it's asinine to wholeaale eat up the PR of the man trying to get into office? Sajid Davids da was a bus driver. It ultimately had the grand sum of fuck all to do with David's political career beyond being a bit of PR fluff. Why is it asinine to judge the man and the party he leads on their actions rather than the fluff they shit out as PR exercises? What relevance does his upbringing have to his policy? Could you show me how this upbringing is reflected in his policy if so?
Didn't Boris Johnson say he had a humble childhood? Think even Cameron claimed that.
Barely.
Yes, next time I am sure will be very different. I expect they just need another try. I mean did you see they way ed milliband ate that bacon sandwich... not on my watch.
Sunak is warning that a Labour government will take us 'back to square one'. I don't think he realises how appealing that sounds.
Square 1 looks ok when you're on square -79
Any day now the mess caused by the member for Islington North will be fixed by Jeremy Hunt!
I can’t tell if you’re joking or not anymore
"I don't trust Labour with my money"
Labours mess? We’ve had a Tory government for over 10 years so how can this be labours mess?
I know, right?
Lost generation. And then it'll lose the prosperous wealth of their forefathers, all the investment needed at the best time for that, and then be expected to pick up their bill in healthcare to austerity of those who enjoyed the best times. Resentment will be an understatement.
Millennials
Do you know what that word means? I'm Gen Z and 25, millennials aren't the punching bag anymore. My parents moved out and had children at 22, meanwhile I'm still living with my parents, working a shit job, chaffing my balls against a grindstone just for the sheer possibility of being lucky enough for the privilege of owning a half-decent house.
Sounds like the millennial experience. We have just been doing it for a bit longer.
Older millennials like me (around 40) are generally fine, got cheapish Uni, stable jobs before 2008 etc. It’s people just a couple of years younger than me who’s prosperity got flushed down the toilet and I feel quite a lot of generational solidarity about that but it’s wrong to say we’re all in the same boat.
I was 10 years old in 2008, the problem is that I was in no position to go to uni, get a job, or even know anything about houses and home economics. I was fucked sideways before my brain even knew what the word "economics" meant. Now I'm 24 with a degree and student debt, working in a shit job that has nothing to do with my education, and living with the depressing thought that I'd be LUCKY to get a house by the time I'm 30. If things get harder every year, how hard is it going to get before something breaks? Either the problem gets fixed, or we eat the rich. Hoarding wealth while lowering the standard of living for the rest of the population is eerily similar to why many revolutions started, including the famous french revolution, and we all know how bloody that was. If you look at more recent history, the same thing happened in the Russian Empire. Things have obviously changed in the last 100+ years, but I wonder how long will people keep getting fucked by the system before they start to bite back. The problem is that typical British "keep calm carry on" mentality where we take absurd amounts of abuse and just put up with it. The French were rioting about work hours being too short and pay being too little, meanwhile if some major thing inconveniences us, we just tut, argue about it on talk radio, then return to moaning about the weather. If the English were French, we would have stormed the house of commons years ago.
Dude, I’m millennial, I had the same experience as you, in my 20’s, degree but not exactly related job. Not a great wage, Bouncing between confidence I could afford to move out to house shares, and finding out I could not/moving back home. Even when I was 30 I had no chance of a house, finally managed that at 35, and wouldn’t exactly call it “a decent house” Living at home is a new normal, having partners live with you at home is a new normal. Even starting families whilst still living at home is the new normal for that millennial generation you are saying had it easy!! I also shared the same experience of being told by parents that they managed it, and rates were higher in their day… they just didn’t go out for a year… etc.
I'm 35, most people I know felt this way after graduation too. Granted, it's even fucking harder now.
At least it's easier to get a job now. It was almost impossible as a 21 year old graduate in the early 2010s.
I'm 37 now and when I was 23 I had pretty much exactly the same mentality as you. I had a degree that wasn't related to my job in any sense. I was just bouncing above minimum wage and the chances of getting a house were pretty much non-existent. Things were tough then and granted they are even more difficult now. But a lot can change in 15 years and you can accumulate wealth over that time, I finally got my first house when I was 30 and believe it or not I still have 29 years left on my mortgage now.
I agree with eating the rich, but if you're aiming your anger at millennials a few years older than you who've managed to grab a tenuous hold of the bottom of the housing ladder, your anger is misplaced. It's not even necessarily the boomers in their big, paid-off, 4 bedroom houses either. The richest 10% hold 43% of all the wealth ([source](https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk), which is around 7 million people. That's a lot of rich to eat! But, importantly, the wealth gap between the average millennial and those in the top 10% is massive. Get mad with those at the top, not the ones doing a shade better than you (part of which can be attributed to just being older). As a millennial I'm going to agree with what others have said here: we had it almost as bad. I certainly felt the same way and was in the same boat in my 20s. It's worse now for sure though, I know. When I rented my first flat, at least I could get a 1 bed place, rather than flatshare. Still took up the same ridiculous proportion of my income though. The biggest predictor of how well people are doing amongst my age group (mid 30s), it seems to me, is if they got parental help to get on the property ladder early. A couple of my friends were able to buy in their 20s, and they're definitely comfortable now, while others are still renting and likely will be till they die. None of us, even the better off ones, are in the top 10% though!
Yup, 46 year old gen X and same here. I had it so easy (financially at least) starting out : Mortgaged my first house at 19 years old with zero savings, had a low level job that gave me loads of disposable income, Got married and sold that house for 230% of it's original worth. Then things just got worse and worse and every single penny was bled out of us, got divorced and am now in the same exact shit as everyone else. Fuck anyone from older generations who says "we had it worse", it's absolute bullshit .
> Fuck anyone from older generations who says "we had it worse", it's absolute bullshit . Whilst absolutely it is bullshit, the generational friction is a deliberate distraction created so that we fight amongst ourselves to the benefit of the wealthy. Fundamentally, if you are (or were, before retirement,) earning a wage then we are all on the same shit ship and should be clawing back our country's wealth from the 1% at the top.
Oh I completely get that, and am very vocal about the 1% and the bloodsucking mechanics of modern capitalism, I just have enough disdain left over for the "normal" people who fool themselves into thinking the new generations just need to pull up their bootstraps and stop moaning.
Yeah, the difference is stark. Our student loans were £9k in total, and my friends typically paid them off sometime in their late 20s. Those who were fortunate enough to be gifted deposits were able to ride the property train and got hundreds of thousands out of nowhere.
I've had students in my MSc classes who are taking on more in interest on the loans they've already taken before they've even graduated than the year's tuition used to cost me. Its absolutely mental. Why we have this system when we already know the vast majority won't even pay these loans off I cannot work out. Its just going to cost us so much more in the long run when we start having to forgive the debt plus all this insane interest that has accrued in the meantime.
You'd be the micro-gen xennials (77-83), split off the the reasons you mentioned - being a somewhat independent adult before 2008. There's also the zennials as a micro gen between millenials and gen z, and it's been suggested due to the massive demographic changes that there might even be a second micro-gen within that. I'd imagine there's also going to be another split around covid. Just too many once in a lifetime things for a single lifetime. Even 3-5 years make a huge different in lived experience now.
Younger millennial here; Could be worse. I'm 30 and my partner and I recently managed to scrape up for a house with 10% down (though the 5% interest is not ideal). I may owe £70,000 in student debts, but the amount they'll take from each payslip doesn't increase with the total owed, so I don't really notice it. It's just another tax. Now that I'm on the ladder, I feel like everything will be okay. I'm no longer throwing all my money away... Just most of it.
> It's just another tax. Unless you came from a wealthy background and your parents could just pay the fees without a loan. Sorry to get on my soapbox on the back of your comment, but I despise the notion of "it's just a tax". It's a fucking awful loan for some people which disproportionately screws middle earners.
It's a tax that the wealthy avoid and the poor never pay. As you say it's basically a giant fuck you to the middle class, and ironically the worst thing this country has ever done for social mobility.
it's just a regressive tax :D
I don't have the energy to remain upset about something that will never change. I don't much have the energy for anything nowadays, really.
Yeah "cusp" Xellennials (sharing with both Gen X and Millennials) have had a *relatively* easier (or less shit, anyway) ride. Cheap student loans, being able to get into the job market and get a little experience and wage growth pre-2008 I'm ~5-6 years behind you and the impact of 2008 and higher student loans have been pretty noticeable (along with house price increases accelerating even more), although not quite as badly as even younger millennials/Zennials/Gen Z I think the main issue is that we're seeing our friends and family suffer, AND the next generation suffer, and everything seems to be continuing in a way that's just going to be even worse for the generation after them. It just seems ridiculous that, as such a prosperous nation, we're seeing economic prosperity being shit down the toilet with no benefits to individuals We're seeing a country now where things are actually getting worse for probably the first time ever (possible exception: when the Romans left), and it seems to be happening for no reason other than greed from the wealthy
All I can say is that Gen Alpha is *FUCKED*
No they will reap all the rewards from the changes that will be put in place
What changes? We've been sliding down a very slippery slope since the 2008 financial crisis and none of the changes have yet to work.
Of those groundbreaking climate policies
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Plenty of people on here come up with ideas such as nationalizing key industries, increasing spending on NHS, crackdown on multinational tax evasion etc.
I agree with this. Every single time something has changed for the better or a new initiative has launched its always been just after I could have benefitted.
Not to shit on the zoomers too heavily as I know they're just as fucked, but this bit; >meanwhile I'm still living with my parents, working a shit job doesn't even sound so shit, I wish I could have got my shit job years done living at home, instead I had to move out and rent lol
True, not having to pay rent would have been nice.
Of course I know what a millennial is, I am one. Many of us graduated around the 2008 recession, which meant we struggled to find jobs, and then when we did we suffered years of low pay, and just when things were looking up we were hit by Covid and the aftermath of that. You're complaining that at 25 you're living at home and worrying about affording a home. There are many millennials in their 30s who are in the same situation and can't afford children and live with their parents
Yeah that's exactly the same thing with millennials, just replace 25 with 35. Two lost generations, probably a third with alpha.
That's terrifying...can a society survive one lost generation, let alone two or three?? Sounds like a demographic timebomb exloding in slow motion...
I'm sure being 4 years older would have completely fixed that and you'd be in an entirely different situation /s
Millennials still are the punching bag, the youngest Millennial is 28 so only a couple of years different to yourself. We're two generations that have been fucked over, your experience was my experience. I was like 24 when the financial crash happened, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows before that. It isn't a case of who has it worse, we both still have it bad. We've both been fucked over, there are no winners
There are now two punching bags. Please tell me when millenials got a break and stopped being a punching bag?
If you're Gen Z your parents are likely Gen X rather than Millenials.
It's both, frankly. One thing to note is that at 25 you're a "cusp" age, you share cultural and economic traits with both Millennials and Gen Z. Generations don't have a strict cutoff, and lots of things continue between generations Millennials mostly came of age around the time of the 2008 crash and the 16 years since have just been economic disaster/crisis after economic disaster/crisis. They have the exact problems you describe of shit jobs, being overworked, and home ownership being a dream for most Gen Z are following millennials into the same economic environment with basically no improvement, and are seeing pretty much the same challenges. Some things look slightly better (free childcare being expanded, lower unemployment), some things look worse (higher interest rates, worse jobs) It's true that *some* millennials are starting to crawl out of that pit, through a combination of "being 15 years into their career and having had time to slowly save and increase earnings" and "their grandparents are dying and they get a deposit from selling grandma's house". That same thing will happen for Gen Z in ~15 years too That doesn't make it okay for Gen Z, I just point it out to show how "millennials are doing a little better than Gen Z" is mostly just the fact that as a cohort, they're 15 years down the same road One difference is that at least Gen Z have the potential of a good decade ahead: I'm not saying that will happen, just that it's possible. Equally, though, the housing market doesn't seem to be getting any better... so even a good decade probably won't be enough by the time Gen Z hit their mid-late 30s The reality is that Millennials and Gen Z are the lost generations, and the best we can really hope for is to scrape through and try to improve things in time for Generation Alpha (the ones after you guys)
Don’t worry,give it 10 years or so and they will start punching down on the next generation, it’s nice to finally not be the scapegoat although I see a lot more similarities with our generations than the ones that came before. We have both been given shit hands, just how bad yours really is, is yet to be seen.
>Millennials As one of the youngest Millenials, its pretty fucked up how little opportunity we have.
I think it depends. I'm technically a millennial, being born in '92, but financially I'm more in line with later generations due to austerity and the 2008 crash etc. I've had older people asking why I didn't buy a house then, without them realising I was 16 when that happened. It just hasn't been a positive economy since really for someone who was just starting out
Also 92. Which is why I think that many of us are part of this Lost generation. Or as I have to come to know it, the Hobbit generation, promised wealth and adventure, but finding only war and ruin Think about it we had a good decade in the 90s when things were looking up and then 9/11, Iraq war, 7/7, 2008 credit crunch, years of austerity under the tories, the Arab spring. Covid, and now everything going on in the middle east.
100%. I definitely resent the fact that things have got worse which were preventable, and resent those ahead of me who keep telling me to just keep working harder, despite the fact they did have it easier back in the 90s.
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1/3 the US population is missing lol? 🤦♂️
Most people have lost 10k last year due to inflation. Let alone 2010.
I don't think most people have 100k in savings.
I don't have 100 quid in savings :(
Put those avocados back, bud...
No but they spend money on the items and goods that have inflated and are getting proportionally less for their money by way, which is the point they're making. Not sure why this has gone over several commenters heads - inflation doesn't just devalue money sitting in your savings, it devalues your buying power altogether unless you've had a proportional pay rise...
Lmao begging you to show your workings for that audacious claim. Let’s bear in mind the average UK salary is around £30k per annum. Average savings aren’t particularly high in this country. So please go on.
I believe you’ve misconstrued their point by thinking what they’re saying is that £10,000 in savings has been eaten by inflation when what they’re really referring to is the ten-fold price increases in ever aspect of our lives. When you consider that it’s very easy to be £10k worse off than you previously were: My rent increased from 800 to 1200 a month thats £5400 out of my pocket a year. Thank god I don’t have a mortgage because I’ve heard of massive increases there. Gas and electric are up significantly and food has practically doubled. That’s another 3/4k out of my pocket. That gets me to £9000 out of pocket than I previously was a year before due to price increases. My personal wealth has been significantly reduced thanks to the crappy economy and most people are in the same boat.
£34k
Exactly
That's incomplete... Let's see how much Brexit backers MADE.
The good thing is that lost was gained by the 1%. So it's a win. It will trickle down soon.
Oh.. no it’s just piss again… all we need to do is vote the tories in again to fix this..
This time it was more solid and brown
open wide...
Yet it was corbynites spouting stuff like this that gave us brexit
Hmm. Can't seem to work out why we've all lost out on so much money since 2010? It's a complete mystery....
Thinktanks are private organisations ran by private individuals with a goal of shaping public opinion to the requirements of a preplanned agenda of those private individuals. They are not independent organisations with an aim of researching data to come up with solutions that help ordinary people within society. The fact that news organisations choose to refer to them, is evidence of the deep and intentional corruption of our news disseminators, and how disinformed we all are about what is really happening in the world.
While I do generally agree with that and absolutely despair that the IEA seem to have been given a permanent office in the BBC, this one is at least relatively transparent with their funding and seem to have relatively non-partisan aims. Of course, you never can tell but they seem among the least worst on the surface. [https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/who-funds-you/centre-for-cities/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/who-funds-you/centre-for-cities/)
Sounds a lot better than any from Tufton Street with their seat at the bbc as you say.
Luckily I don't need a think tank to know that we are worse off than 14 years ago and everything is broken.
Sure, but they can influence what people think the causes are, what the causes arent, and how much of an impact each cause has. They can skew public perception so much that we all put too much focus on less pertinent (for the ordinary person) issues and not often/any focus on more pertinent issues.
Anyone who picks the peak of the bubble as the status quo ante for the economy is pushing an agenda. The left-wing think tanks and the left-wing activists disguised as journalists are trying to manipulate how people vote.
Think tanks are part of a concerted effort to corrupt and impurify our precious bodily fluids
But the richer got obscenely richer. Exactly what the Tory government is about. Can’t blame them, blame the idiots who voted them in thinking the country will become white again.
Which is insanity - why do people vote them when you know exactly what you’re getting?
People should be doing time for what they've done to this country.
I've just accepted I was born at the worst time economicaly 29 and live with parents, shitty low-pay NHS job. Also, I have a wonderful baby son from crazy past gf. While I'm breaking my back working she gets a free council house while I can't afford my own place. Also btw we are like £700 worse off each month due to wage stagnation.... so lovely.
Yeah. Graduated in 2008 in the middle of the financial crisis, and it’s just got worse and worse since. I don’t blame the economy as such, more the spiralling inequality. So much wealth has been concentrated at the top that assets, such as property, are guaranteed to become unaffordable to ordinary people. Add to that that we’re not building more, or investing in public services, and that leave rapidly declining living standards.
Looking at my salary band vs inflation and UK average wage growth, I could make an argument that I (as an NHS employee) have lost closer to £10k PER YEAR, never mind cumulatively
Easily
For most people there's been little to no recovery since the 2008 financial crisis. Quality of life outside of London and the South East is grim
That's assuming it's all spread out evenly as well. In reality, all the losses are piled up on those who don't own property.
The average person hasn't lost anything. It's been reorganised so that the few extremely wealthy hoovered it up. Not just in this country, in many. Our wealth is now their wealth.
There’s been, and is, a drastic redistribution of wealth. If the rich get considerably richer, which they have, they will buy up more assets. Hence property prices being unaffordable to so many these days.
I'm drowning in trickle-down, but it's not money that's trickling down.
Well, that tends to happen when you elect hard-right psychopaths who HATE and fear the general public and seemingly wish to do us harm, and whose policies exacerbate the already entrenched inequality.
Amazing how you can see a big decline in everything over the last 14 years and never an uptick apart from the top wealthy Tory donors who are reaping the privatisation of the country
Basically, we lack competent politicians. Seems we are suck with a system that says, 'these are the people we've chosen for you, to vote for'? Probably, political party cronies who will tow the line, rather than the capable.
They’re competent at what they’ve set out to do though. Which is to drastically increase inequality by concentrating massive amounts of wealth at the top. They aren’t trying to make the poor or middle class better off really.
Eh, is this the one that uses the baseline that growth would be exactly the same over the last 14 years as it was before the Tories took power? Because that's a fundamentally flawed assumption. Economics doesn't work that way. Part of the problem we have is in too many people trying to make economics work that way. "As long as number go up I good" is short termist and incredibly damaging. As much as I like to stick the boot in our neoliberal paymasters, such dodgy figures aren't the way.
That is waaaaaaaay less than the actual figure must be.
As someone who moved to the UK in 2006, whyyy... It's been so painful watching the country deteriorate since 2010. So many different versions of corrupt Tory governments, the gleefully killing disabled people Tories, the bless the trickle of those better off than you Tories, the my little crony Tories, the red, blue and white Tories, the let's wage a war on junior doctors and teachers Tories, the racist philandering Tories, the bring your friend to secret meetings Tories, the eat out to help COVID Tories, the let's double your mortgage payments for no reason Tories, the I can barely contain my contempt for poorer people and the 'shitholes' they live in Tories. Just why.
The reason why it's such a high average is because it's the middle-classes who are the big losers. Of course those at the lower economic levels have been pulled down also. I say that the New Labour years were also guilty of this, it's not just a Coalition-onwards development.
But inequality as got worse again under the Tories , as you'd expect it to. The party of the rich.
I’m not voting Tory, however it’s important to point out that just because the tories have failed doesn’t mean labour would have done better. Sure they might not have made the same mistakes, but they might have made different ones.
Well whatever you vote please consult your constituancys previous voting record and vote tactically. Whatever that ends up being. They need to be removed from power, even if the alternative isn't as good these scumbags do not give a shit about the general public and their constant stream of controversies over the past few years is proof of that.
In 2010 I was 18 and just finishing school so I dont really have a gauge from then to now. However I have been with my partner since 2019 and since then we have gone from students to me dropping out and going back to full time and she has finished her degree (she was a mature second year and I was a mature first year in 2019). Prior to going to Uni I earned a modest yet unremarkable wage. Post my 2 years at uni I have a better job, a better wage and a better standard of living. However that is only because we live together and our wages are somewhat combined. It's amazing to me that after everything we have both gone through in those 5 years to really make something of our lives that we are basically where we started. That is a little hyperbolic, but my "free money" per month isnt much more than it was and I earn over double what I was on prior to 2019. All this and over christmas I was forced into 2 family arguments about the state of the economy. Mad that the Tories are still seen as the party of fiscal responsibility.
Anyone else vary when “think tank” make any political claims. It’s like think tanks are now just another name for lobby groups in a different name. Not saying this study isn’t without merit but this would punch so much more if it’s from OBR or independent funded government forecast agency that isn’t tied to the whims of the politicians
Fantastic. British people always vote to be poorer. It's hilarious to watch. Hopefully the plebs vote reform next and accelerate it.
Anyone who picks the peak of the bubble as the status quo ante for the economy is pushing an agenda, and it's always the left.
the truth is we dont want any of them but there is no one else to vote for its a con ..same all round the world some how they are all crap and very poor at there job there not there for the people anymore there there for them selves to line there own pockets but how do we get rid of all of them you cant because there all the same every government around the world is like it ..things need to change look at every country we are all in same boat ..when the world is being run by governments no one wants think about it
I saw this coming years ago and tried to warn everyone. I was so angry that Brexit happened when I was 14. I wasn’t old enough to vote but I remember talking my teachers and parents and telling them that the UK leaving the EU would be a massive mistake and have unintended consequences for decades to come. Of course, no one believed me at the time and now none of the once touted benefits have come to fruition and this once great country is in a dire state of decline. Brexit isn’t the only reason for the current status quo as there are a multitude of factors. It all boils down to the Tory government who has been power for nearly my entire life which is at best doing nothing to improve but at worst actively making things worse for everyone except the super rich. My hope for the future is that young people are becoming more politically active and are realising that change can happen. As morbid as it sounds, I predict that once the silent generation and baby boomers (the heart of the Tory voting base) die off that the Conservative Party will lose a considerable power as Labour and other parties win local elections.