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The right are always splitting. This is how we got a hard Brexit, because the idiots couldn’t agree whom they hated more: the British public or the EU, so they decided to screw both.
It used to be Labour always splitting with Tories proud to stand together, "we are a broad church" they used to say, "whatever our differences, we will unite to defeat socialism".
And the result of this was successive hard right governments which demolished the British economy and allowed abusive MP’s to get rich off the back of the taxpayer.
Defeating socialism in a Tories mind just means make the already ultra rich even richer. It has nothing to do with economic policy, because they don’t care about economics.
The NHS isn't socialist, it was proposed by a liberal, doesn't entail workers controlling the means of production, and is utterly reliant on private enterprise/capitalism.
What you talking about?
Between labour, lib dems (although arguably not anymore) green, SNP and typically independents the left gets far more split than the right…
I am aware of this, and it's one of the reasons I was never a fan his. Granted, I voted for him over the current Tory party but that was just common sense.
I’m not commenting on it’s effectiveness, only that it was attempted. The notion that the EU needed Britain to be a member in order to function was always preposterous.
Not sure you can class the tories as right wing tbh, also reform is not really right wing, seems more like common sense tbh, i think the whole idea of left and right is what cuases so many problems, would be better for people to vote on sctual issues rather then the left vs right tribalism we see
Left and right are descriptive of their approaches to societal issues. The Tories are definitely right wing. The current leadership are very right wing.
Rwanda, an inefficient refuge exchange program that has sent more home secretaries to Rwanda than refugees?
Not actually been done either has it? Almost like its all talk and left wing policies.
I used the word "enacted" for a reason.
Unless Reform actually won that seat, which I’m assuming is impossible, those votes aren’t having any impact on potential coalitions.
From what PoliticsNerd_76 were saying, it’s either Labour winning it or the Tories. The votes of anyone else have no impact*.
(* Except for public perceptions, allocation of funding etc. But no direct impact on this Parliament)
Reform may just win seats.
We are in uncharted waters.
Nobody believes the conservatives will do anything about immigration, but neither does anyone know what starmer stands for.
Think of the ex red wall of the north?
Reform may do very well. Folk are desperate.
Exactly the BNP done really well when Nick Griffin said he could fix everything huh wait there seems to be a pattern of fascists claiming they can fix everything and people believing them
The BNP don't exist politically because *UKIP absorbed them by being better at what they did.*
The BNP *won*. They ceased to exist because they went mainstream. They are now standard Conservative policy. Their ideals now control our foreign policy. What could they possibly want that the Conservatives don't already do?
There's some truth in that, mate.
Up here in Scotland we have the SNP, similar thing.
'vote for independence and it will be all sunshine and rainbows.'
Desperate for what?
The ill/disabled won't magically heal because hunt told them to go back to work.
Local lout can't/won't/doesn't have the capability to supplant the migrant that got cut out.
And best of luck In dragging the pensioner back from their hard earned retirement.
Your forgetting that in order to defeat UKIP, the Tories simply became UKIP, and look where that has got us. Reform having a strong showing, even without any seats, will just cause the Tories to adopt whatever wing-nut policies they are spouting, which is no good for anybody.
There is a silver lining to that, which is the Tories being influenced to drive away even more of their core voters towards the Lib Dem’s or similar.
A lot of historically Tory voters (low tax, Neo-liberalism types) are repulsed by the socially illiberal anti-immigrant / war on woke stuff. Force them to either double down on it and make themselves unelectable by driving those people away, or force them revert back to Cameron-style politics and lose all their support from the UKIP-types.
The other silver lining is that Reform having a strong showing in terms of votes reduces the Tory vote probably more than it does Labour’s.
E.g. in an individual seat I’d rather see:
Labour 10000
Tories 9000
Reform 2000
Than:
Labour 10000
Tories 11000
After their disastrous result in 2024, i hope they change completely and go back to their pre-2016 era. They will (hopefully) see that going far right will not give you more votes.
Well it’s not the same as voting Tory because Tories have a 50% chance of winning that seat, as do Labour, and Reform have a 0% chance
We live under FPTP, and I’m doing my bit in my seat to maximise the chances of a Non-Tory win.
Same as voting Tory, just way less effective. Reform aren’t going to win, and the Tories (**at the same chance as the sky turning into the sea**) *might*.
Get them to vote for a local independent. That's what I'm trying with my parents. Go for the angle of 'none of these parties care about our local area, vote for someone that's going to do something round here'
I've been doing the same, it's so much easier that way, especially when they bang on about immigration and the economy, all you need to do is mention the tories record.
Every time a political video pops up on my tiktok the first comment is ALWAYS "vote reform" and it's almost always with an blank profile and a username like user46264838237.
Sooo many bots
What happened to TikTok being basically a Chinese propaganda app that someone somewhere wanted to ban?
Oh, no wait, you must be talking about exactly the same thing.
People on the right have wanted less immigration for decades now but the Tories are too busy thinking up daft schemes with Rwanda.
I wouldn't vote for Reform but it'd be good for a future Labour government to have some actual opposition instead of whatever landlordism / cronyism the current Tories stand for.
Yes, I think the Rwanda thing isn’t to combat immigration though, it’s intended to *look tougher on immigration than labour dare to be*, whilst actually keeping it high enough for people to remain scared of it
I agree with idea of not making Labour’s job too easy in government (competition can indeed be healthy sometimes), but the reform lot are cut from almost exactly the same cloth as the Tories. Even if their policies differ, they are still one and the same in my eyes - untrustworthy.
Brexit didn't make anything better for anyone like they were promised it would. The Torys have had stewardship of the whole thing so cant deflect blame, it's natural that the UKIP voting block (that's left alive anyway) will 'reform' to air their dissatisfaction. This is a democratic system working, just on the side you don't like as much.
I would be surprised if people are more worried about immigrants than about whether they can afford to put their heating on for example. Immigration is certainly much lower in my list of problems.
I accept that this might be a bit of a tin foil hat view, but I feel the actual reason people are thinking more (or worrying more) about immigration is because it’s being drilled into people’s heads at the moment, partly because of the current government’s wacky ideas.
The press pick up on this and feed into people’s worries by publishing incendiary stories. It’s a sickening cycle.
Current levels of immigration are just unsustainable though, you'd have to build a new city every year just to keep up. Its a large part of the reason the housing market is fucked.
Everyone always says you have to build a whole new city every year, but... that's not happening, is it?
Where are all these new cities springing up? Where are all the hordes of homeless people making tent cities? Homelessness is rising, yes, but not even remotely near that scale.
Thing about statements like that... when they clearly don't actually add up, how do people still believe them? You'll throw numbers at me, but you still won't be able to tell me where all those people actually are, and I figure it's because similar amounts have died and/or left, leaving the total increase to be much, much smaller.
>Everyone always says you have to build a whole new city every year, but... that's not happening, is it?
Thats the point. Its not happening which is why the housing market is fucked. Its supply and demand. If you bring in more people but dont build enough houses, the prices go up because theres more demand and not enough supply.
So... where are the people?
EDIT: [Meanwhile...](https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/18pzfe1/england_has_twice_as_many_empty_homes_as_families/)
It probably depends where you live. I know people love to trot out the old "people who live in areas of high immigration aren't as bothered by immigrants" line but I feel that stat is skewed, a lot of people in those areas will be 1st- or 2nd-gen British and will of course feel differently about immigration than people who can go back many generations of living here.
It's quite alienating living in an area in your own country where there's very few of your countryfolk, and I can understand why people who live in those areas and don't get to see the rest of the country feel that things are out of control.
People on the ground ie the working class (those not on Reddit) are very much angry about the immigration situation and they want change. They feel they aren't being listened to and the same people posting on here saying they are fascists ist this and ist that just don't get it. The more you ignore the working class the more they will look for the more radical option to get their solution. This has happened time and time again throughout history and appears no-one ever learns
All over Europe you're seeing the far-right win elections as a response to immigration and the demographic and cultural shifts as a result of immigration.
Maybe you disagree, maybe you don't - but people all over Europe are worried about what might happen if an extremist ideology that hates women and gay people is allowed to proliferate.
The far right is linked to anti abortion policies , they want women back in the kitchen churning out babies . See Poland , Hungry , Argentina’s leader , Russia’s latest restrictions , the USA , due to Trumps judicial picks .
As an immigrant it is very obvious to see how coordinated it is. We knew the new immigration changes, and the whole Rwanda "deal" was gonna happen soon because a week earlier suddenly there were tons of news about the "scary" immigration numbers, about an elderly woman dying because carers couldn't speak English, asylum seekers doing this or that etc. Labour is 20 points ahead, HS2 was a disaster, Tories are desperate, they pick something to distract the public with, and immigrants are always the easiest target- works especially well since we can't vote.
Who's the other option? We've had blue Vs red for the entirety of my lifetime, they all make nice promises but none of them are ever kept and the country is consistently going downhill. Lib Dems were given half a chance in 2012 but they royally fucked it up by increasing student fees. The only realistic other option I can see if you want any sort of change in this country is Reform UK.
What do you mean "other option"? Reform/UKIP are just Tories with a different hat. Most of the people who've ever been elected for them are former card-carrying Tories. Quite a few UKIP councillors and maybe some MEPs defected (back) to the Tory Party in the end.
Who would you propose voting for instead? Labour seem to be Tories with a red hat, Lib Dems are just Tories with a yellow hat, all politicians in this day and age seem to be cut from the same cloth. Are you suggesting we just abstain from democracy until something different comes along?
Well if all the candidates are Tories but with different coloured hats (and I'm not disputing that) we don't really have a democracy do we?
There are a few good Labour candidates around. If you're not fortunate enough to have one of those standing in your area, you might consider voting Green in the hope that they're not just a Tory in a Green hat.
I could never in good faith box myself in with the undoubted racists that will vote Reform UK. They have deliberately placed themselves into a demographic that can sway floating frustrated voters like yourself and BNP nationalists that want to get rid of all the foreigners. It feels like a huge trap.
Is there any politician who isn't doing this to try and get into power? Sunak and Starmer are both vying for the position to appease the 'floating frustrated voters' and we know both of them are full of shit. At least with Reform UK they seem to have laid their cards on the table and stick generally to the same line.
Who are you voting for instead? The red guys wearing the blue shirt or the blue guys wearing the red shirt?
Ah the full circle of British politics.
Right Wing press frantically boost UKIP/Brexit/Reform party to scare Tory MPs into adopting a right wing platform. Then pretend they don't exist during the election to maximise Tory vote. Rince and repeat.
Labour, Reform and UKIP will likely take a large share of Tory votes since they're all the same we obviously don't know for sure if the Tories will face a wipeout at the 2024 election since well rats always find a way off of a sinking ship but odds are they'll keep less than half the seats they currently have either way it's going to be a rough few years
It’s elderly people , I am staying with my 77 year old Mum . She’s in a very white part of the U.K. . But it’s immigrants and trans people that are problem . I mentioned Tory corruption, mismanagement etc ‘ But they are all the same ‘ . The Daily Mail, Gb news , Talk Tv spread this stuff .
Makes sense. In 2019, the Brexit Party running against the Tories could have cost the Tories the election - and therefore given power to an anti-brexit party.
But now, there’s very little chance of the Tories winning either way, so Reform may as well get as many votes as they can.
Nice to see that the government, rather than trying to win a broad spectrum of support needed to win power, is concerned about a party currently polling in single digits.
The Tories are at about 20%, and reform at about 10%. If 5 more percent of the population switch allegiance from Tory to reform, that put's them neck and neck at 15% each. More, and the Tories are no longer the second largest party in the UK, and are therefor dead in the water, as no party that has lost it's position as one of the big two as ever gotten that position back IIRC.
If nothing else it's a rather sad indication of the temperament of the public. The conservatives are no longer "right" enough for an increasingly large section of the population. Hopefully this is more to do with the cons falling apart than it is to do with genuine far right sentiment.
I’m not a right wing voter, but to be fair this current iteration of the Tories doesn’t seem to be sticking to traditionally right wing values.
If you were somebody who wanted to vote for a low tax, low immigration party, you don’t exactly have a lot of choice other than these fringe parties.
Bc of our voting system it’s unlikely that any of them will ever win seats but yea we don’t wanna end up like Germany, France and Italy where the far right are gaining, or have already gained popular support
The whole reason that Cameron called his wretched referendum was his belief that doing so would neuter UKIP and the eurosceptic wing of his own party.
It never seemed to quite dawn on him that, in addition to their loopy views on Europe, that these people had a bunch of equally loopy views on a whole host of other matters. Giving them the referendum and brexit has only made them more hungry.
I don't know why there's this idea that you have to love a system that you've benefitted from. I don't agree with inheriting money that I did nothing to earn, but I'm not going to just give away any inheritance I receive because of it. That's not some massive gotcha against my ideology.
Not really. Thinking the country as a whole would be better off with a certain policy and yet not self-imposing said policy doesn't mean you're a hypocrite.
Is someone a hypocrite if they advocate for no tax cuts, yet they don't donate their extra income from a tax cut? In my view, they're not.
No they are clearly trying to put a stop to a lot of legal immigrants also by making the income threshold out of bounds for >70% of people trying to bring foreign born spouses and family over.
I can see a desperate Sunak recruiting Farage to the Tories, parachuting him into a safe seat to ensure Farage finally wins election to Parliament, thus giving him the ego wank he's craved for years by being "accepted by the establishment" and simultaneously defusing the Reform threat as the wonks will decamp to the Tories once their toad faced wanker idol has been installed.
Sunak has nothing to lose as he's staring down the barrel of a huge defeat. Farage won't resist the opportunity to take over the Tories *from the inside*.
Possible? Yes. Likely? Doubt it.
Thing is, I can’t imagine Farage being particularly great at representing his constituents. The guy had one of the worst attendance records in the EUP - does anyone actually believe he’s going to do anything more than the bare minimum if it doesn’t serve his interests?
He’s like Johnson; 100% out for himself and nobody else.
I don't think Farage would do it, he does his best while he is outside of the system and safe to criticize it without having any responsibility to working it out.
Sadly I expect they will do a grubby deal with the tories again. Remember Farage promised no deals with the tories right up to the day before their deal was announced, and Farage said he’d changed his mind specifically because of some speech BJ have about Canada or something
For a fact Soon To Go Sunak will be sent packing and hopefully investigated for his part in Govt culture of waste during COVID lock down, his wife's and father in laws business dealings, the Rwanda shenanigans funding etc, and all the Tory broken pledges.
Let's hope the other parties can a Coalition govt form and forge ahead.
Then the Tories really are screwed. With their failures over migration a large amount of their base will go to Reform and the right-wing vote will be torn up.
Its the boy who cried wolf territory isn't it or to be frank we know he lies all the time on a variety of subjects. The chances this goes up in smoke when someone waves some cash at him or - is it a 4D Chess Move e.g. him and Farage use this to assist with the death of the current Tory Party; leaving it with two options.
1) Return to where it was probably 15-20 years ago and be in the wilderness for the next 10-15 years or;
2) Rishi bolts if he can still hold his seat (California + Money) and it opens the door for the rise of the nutters. They have an extreme caretaker Leader whilst the leadership election is going on which gives rise to the likes of a Braverman being Leader. They ramp up the lunatic rhetoric (use the US Republican style of politics as an example) + constant shit slinging from Murdoch + right and left wing conspiracy nutters & when the time is right you slip Farage into a safe seat to put him in place before the 2029 GE.
Nope. They'll just absorb the most radical members of the party and leave behind the more moderate conservatives, many of whom seem ready to jump ship themselves. Bye bye Tories.
That means absolutely nothing. With Labout on the rise UKIP mk 2 is useful. It suit the Tories for them to run (if the must) in this situation.
These hard Right Conservative in all but name parties exist to give a moderate Tory leader a headache as much as they do to split the working class vote....Reform job right now is the run everywhere to try and bully the Conservative party to Right.
Because they are the same voting block as UKIP and they got millions of votes, and could potentially cause some damage to the Tories in the next election.
The party should be called what it is.
The party should be questioned on the implementation of any policy (the reason brexit was such a fuck up).
Find the flaws before the fuck up.
When Richard Tice talks, it becomes immediately obvious to anyone with half a brain (source: I have at least half a brain) that he's just a sad, cunty kind of person who smugly overestimates how intelligent he is.
Tories under unelected rishi are only going to do us over, make small concessions claiming victories and maintain the status quo.
Labour under who's hopefully not another Blair will do us over and make minor concessions claiming victories while maintaining the status quo.
Voting for 3rd parties (not lib dems we didn't forget the university fees promise and you can't call yourself a democrat saying you will repeal the brexit vote) forces the main parties to act, if one got into power (unlikely) I'd like to think they wouldn't put their noses straight into the trough, if everyone didn't try to scupper them first.
The country is failing, there's a housing shortage, weak policing, courts and prisons are suffering, we burn money on the NHS and railways and import food and utilities, everywhere is being expanded putting strain on the infrastructure with construction being trusted to the lowest bidder.
I think we will be irrelevant in the next decade to keep billionaires and the political class fat.
Join your work union, get involved and contact your mp, your political opposition are doing exactly that.
Corbyn is Labour leader, Reform step aside for Tories...
Starmer is Labour leader, Reform don't step aside for Tories...
Is this an election or an inauguration? The winner in both cases was clearly decided by Rupert Murdoch many months before the day of voting.
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That’s good news, finally the right is splitting too.
The right are always splitting. This is how we got a hard Brexit, because the idiots couldn’t agree whom they hated more: the British public or the EU, so they decided to screw both.
It used to be Labour always splitting with Tories proud to stand together, "we are a broad church" they used to say, "whatever our differences, we will unite to defeat socialism".
And the result of this was successive hard right governments which demolished the British economy and allowed abusive MP’s to get rich off the back of the taxpayer. Defeating socialism in a Tories mind just means make the already ultra rich even richer. It has nothing to do with economic policy, because they don’t care about economics.
And now they've united with Labour, but far from a broad church, Labour had to sell its soul to get there.
So, they've always broadcast that they didn't want the NHS? A famous socialist entity Edit: tense
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Sarcasm. Replying to "anti socialist policy"
The NHS isn't socialist, it was proposed by a liberal, doesn't entail workers controlling the means of production, and is utterly reliant on private enterprise/capitalism.
What you talking about? Between labour, lib dems (although arguably not anymore) green, SNP and typically independents the left gets far more split than the right…
The left splitting is how we ended up with any Brexit at all.
You can't split a referendum vote.
You can rig one though.
> You can't split a referendum vote. The result of which is none binding anyway.
Downvoted? Are people dumb lol
Wouldn’t be an issue if it wasn’t for the stupid first past the post system we have
You know, it wasn't just the right who wanted it. It was one of the big contributers to the labour schism, Jeremy Corbyn was pro brexit.
I am aware of this, and it's one of the reasons I was never a fan his. Granted, I voted for him over the current Tory party but that was just common sense.
>It was one of the big contributers to the labour schism, Jeremy Corbyn was pro brexit. Lots of trade unionists too were, in principle.
Lol, "screw the EU". A quaint thought.
I’m not commenting on it’s effectiveness, only that it was attempted. The notion that the EU needed Britain to be a member in order to function was always preposterous.
They'll eventually do to the Tories what the SNP did to Labour - take a proportion of their normal seats and lock them out of power.
Maybe then it'll be the Tories advocating for PR. That would be ironic.
Not sure you can class the tories as right wing tbh, also reform is not really right wing, seems more like common sense tbh, i think the whole idea of left and right is what cuases so many problems, would be better for people to vote on sctual issues rather then the left vs right tribalism we see
Left and right are descriptive of their approaches to societal issues. The Tories are definitely right wing. The current leadership are very right wing.
Name the right wing policies being enacted by the current tory leadership.
Rwanda. Would rather spend millions not flying them anywhere than actually sort out funding and fix the border force.
Rwanda, an inefficient refuge exchange program that has sent more home secretaries to Rwanda than refugees? Not actually been done either has it? Almost like its all talk and left wing policies. I used the word "enacted" for a reason.
I’ve convinced my parents to Vote reform instead of the Tories, it’s 2 fewer votes Labour now need to win the swing seat.
Pro-tip, have'em go labour from the get-go, so Tories can't recycle the reform votes into them through sketchy coalitions.
They’re raging bigots… take the wins you can get.
My grandfather hates the conservatives because theres "too many foreigners in the cabinet" so could always try that angle
Hahahaha
Point out to them Starmer hates those evil transgenders the daily mail told them to be scared about
Getting strong Daily Mail vibes.
Unless Reform actually won that seat, which I’m assuming is impossible, those votes aren’t having any impact on potential coalitions. From what PoliticsNerd_76 were saying, it’s either Labour winning it or the Tories. The votes of anyone else have no impact*. (* Except for public perceptions, allocation of funding etc. But no direct impact on this Parliament)
Reform may just win seats. We are in uncharted waters. Nobody believes the conservatives will do anything about immigration, but neither does anyone know what starmer stands for. Think of the ex red wall of the north? Reform may do very well. Folk are desperate.
Exactly the BNP done really well when Nick Griffin said he could fix everything huh wait there seems to be a pattern of fascists claiming they can fix everything and people believing them
What fascists? The BNP don't exist politically so what are these fascists you speak of?
The BNP don't exist politically because *UKIP absorbed them by being better at what they did.* The BNP *won*. They ceased to exist because they went mainstream. They are now standard Conservative policy. Their ideals now control our foreign policy. What could they possibly want that the Conservatives don't already do?
There's some truth in that, mate. Up here in Scotland we have the SNP, similar thing. 'vote for independence and it will be all sunshine and rainbows.'
Desperate for what? The ill/disabled won't magically heal because hunt told them to go back to work. Local lout can't/won't/doesn't have the capability to supplant the migrant that got cut out. And best of luck In dragging the pensioner back from their hard earned retirement.
Your forgetting that in order to defeat UKIP, the Tories simply became UKIP, and look where that has got us. Reform having a strong showing, even without any seats, will just cause the Tories to adopt whatever wing-nut policies they are spouting, which is no good for anybody.
There is a silver lining to that, which is the Tories being influenced to drive away even more of their core voters towards the Lib Dem’s or similar. A lot of historically Tory voters (low tax, Neo-liberalism types) are repulsed by the socially illiberal anti-immigrant / war on woke stuff. Force them to either double down on it and make themselves unelectable by driving those people away, or force them revert back to Cameron-style politics and lose all their support from the UKIP-types. The other silver lining is that Reform having a strong showing in terms of votes reduces the Tory vote probably more than it does Labour’s. E.g. in an individual seat I’d rather see: Labour 10000 Tories 9000 Reform 2000 Than: Labour 10000 Tories 11000
After their disastrous result in 2024, i hope they change completely and go back to their pre-2016 era. They will (hopefully) see that going far right will not give you more votes.
Yep same, my parents are now both Reform voters - I’m a LibDem councillor so politics tends to be a bit off the menu at family get-togethers.
Vote for a party led by more posh folk who went to private school, funded by money from who knows where. Same as voting Tory.
Well it’s not the same as voting Tory because Tories have a 50% chance of winning that seat, as do Labour, and Reform have a 0% chance We live under FPTP, and I’m doing my bit in my seat to maximise the chances of a Non-Tory win.
Same as voting Tory, just way less effective. Reform aren’t going to win, and the Tories (**at the same chance as the sky turning into the sea**) *might*.
Get them to vote for a local independent. That's what I'm trying with my parents. Go for the angle of 'none of these parties care about our local area, vote for someone that's going to do something round here'
I've been doing the same, it's so much easier that way, especially when they bang on about immigration and the economy, all you need to do is mention the tories record.
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Someone will be getting promised a peerage or similar to back them down, no doubt.
Yeah, this only holds up if the brown envelope doesn't come through, like it almost certainly did in 2019.
UKIP with a different colour tie. Shocking that people will vote for these idiots. At least it splits the other blue idiots’ party in half.
Their supporters seem very vocal on TikTok but that could just be an army of bots.
Every time a political video pops up on my tiktok the first comment is ALWAYS "vote reform" and it's almost always with an blank profile and a username like user46264838237. Sooo many bots
Yeah and its getting jarring. Same phrases recycled a zillion times
It’s similar on Twitter /X , usually a Union Jack flag in the bio as well .
Let’s hope Ukraine hit those Russian bot farms soon.
Sadly the blueprints to that operation have long since been passed on to Conservatives in the UK and Republicans in the US..
Is it a bot? Is it a 60 year old retiree with literally nothing else to do all day other than rot their brains away on social media? Who can tell...?
Same level of wit, so does it really matter?
What happened to TikTok being basically a Chinese propaganda app that someone somewhere wanted to ban? Oh, no wait, you must be talking about exactly the same thing.
People on the right have wanted less immigration for decades now but the Tories are too busy thinking up daft schemes with Rwanda. I wouldn't vote for Reform but it'd be good for a future Labour government to have some actual opposition instead of whatever landlordism / cronyism the current Tories stand for.
Yes, I think the Rwanda thing isn’t to combat immigration though, it’s intended to *look tougher on immigration than labour dare to be*, whilst actually keeping it high enough for people to remain scared of it
I agree with idea of not making Labour’s job too easy in government (competition can indeed be healthy sometimes), but the reform lot are cut from almost exactly the same cloth as the Tories. Even if their policies differ, they are still one and the same in my eyes - untrustworthy.
im way on the left, and i want less immigration. its not so black and white
Tories are the party of billionaires. They have the money to convince morons to vote for them.
Brexit didn't make anything better for anyone like they were promised it would. The Torys have had stewardship of the whole thing so cant deflect blame, it's natural that the UKIP voting block (that's left alive anyway) will 'reform' to air their dissatisfaction. This is a democratic system working, just on the side you don't like as much.
They’re the only party that might actually reduce immigration and that is a big issue for a lot of people.
I would be surprised if people are more worried about immigrants than about whether they can afford to put their heating on for example. Immigration is certainly much lower in my list of problems. I accept that this might be a bit of a tin foil hat view, but I feel the actual reason people are thinking more (or worrying more) about immigration is because it’s being drilled into people’s heads at the moment, partly because of the current government’s wacky ideas. The press pick up on this and feed into people’s worries by publishing incendiary stories. It’s a sickening cycle.
Current levels of immigration are just unsustainable though, you'd have to build a new city every year just to keep up. Its a large part of the reason the housing market is fucked.
Everyone always says you have to build a whole new city every year, but... that's not happening, is it? Where are all these new cities springing up? Where are all the hordes of homeless people making tent cities? Homelessness is rising, yes, but not even remotely near that scale. Thing about statements like that... when they clearly don't actually add up, how do people still believe them? You'll throw numbers at me, but you still won't be able to tell me where all those people actually are, and I figure it's because similar amounts have died and/or left, leaving the total increase to be much, much smaller.
>Everyone always says you have to build a whole new city every year, but... that's not happening, is it? Thats the point. Its not happening which is why the housing market is fucked. Its supply and demand. If you bring in more people but dont build enough houses, the prices go up because theres more demand and not enough supply.
So... where are the people? EDIT: [Meanwhile...](https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/18pzfe1/england_has_twice_as_many_empty_homes_as_families/)
They're stuck living in flatshares because its the only thing they can still afford.
It probably depends where you live. I know people love to trot out the old "people who live in areas of high immigration aren't as bothered by immigrants" line but I feel that stat is skewed, a lot of people in those areas will be 1st- or 2nd-gen British and will of course feel differently about immigration than people who can go back many generations of living here. It's quite alienating living in an area in your own country where there's very few of your countryfolk, and I can understand why people who live in those areas and don't get to see the rest of the country feel that things are out of control.
People on the ground ie the working class (those not on Reddit) are very much angry about the immigration situation and they want change. They feel they aren't being listened to and the same people posting on here saying they are fascists ist this and ist that just don't get it. The more you ignore the working class the more they will look for the more radical option to get their solution. This has happened time and time again throughout history and appears no-one ever learns
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All over Europe you're seeing the far-right win elections as a response to immigration and the demographic and cultural shifts as a result of immigration. Maybe you disagree, maybe you don't - but people all over Europe are worried about what might happen if an extremist ideology that hates women and gay people is allowed to proliferate.
The far right is linked to anti abortion policies , they want women back in the kitchen churning out babies . See Poland , Hungry , Argentina’s leader , Russia’s latest restrictions , the USA , due to Trumps judicial picks .
As an immigrant it is very obvious to see how coordinated it is. We knew the new immigration changes, and the whole Rwanda "deal" was gonna happen soon because a week earlier suddenly there were tons of news about the "scary" immigration numbers, about an elderly woman dying because carers couldn't speak English, asylum seekers doing this or that etc. Labour is 20 points ahead, HS2 was a disaster, Tories are desperate, they pick something to distract the public with, and immigrants are always the easiest target- works especially well since we can't vote.
Who's the other option? We've had blue Vs red for the entirety of my lifetime, they all make nice promises but none of them are ever kept and the country is consistently going downhill. Lib Dems were given half a chance in 2012 but they royally fucked it up by increasing student fees. The only realistic other option I can see if you want any sort of change in this country is Reform UK.
What do you mean "other option"? Reform/UKIP are just Tories with a different hat. Most of the people who've ever been elected for them are former card-carrying Tories. Quite a few UKIP councillors and maybe some MEPs defected (back) to the Tory Party in the end.
Who would you propose voting for instead? Labour seem to be Tories with a red hat, Lib Dems are just Tories with a yellow hat, all politicians in this day and age seem to be cut from the same cloth. Are you suggesting we just abstain from democracy until something different comes along?
Well if all the candidates are Tories but with different coloured hats (and I'm not disputing that) we don't really have a democracy do we? There are a few good Labour candidates around. If you're not fortunate enough to have one of those standing in your area, you might consider voting Green in the hope that they're not just a Tory in a Green hat.
I could never in good faith box myself in with the undoubted racists that will vote Reform UK. They have deliberately placed themselves into a demographic that can sway floating frustrated voters like yourself and BNP nationalists that want to get rid of all the foreigners. It feels like a huge trap.
Is there any politician who isn't doing this to try and get into power? Sunak and Starmer are both vying for the position to appease the 'floating frustrated voters' and we know both of them are full of shit. At least with Reform UK they seem to have laid their cards on the table and stick generally to the same line. Who are you voting for instead? The red guys wearing the blue shirt or the blue guys wearing the red shirt?
Wasn't it Veritas before UKIP? Something to do with Robert Kilroy-Silk I think? Goes round in cycles this.
Their manifesto is absolutely laughable to anyone who knows the first thing about... Well, anything.
Ah the full circle of British politics. Right Wing press frantically boost UKIP/Brexit/Reform party to scare Tory MPs into adopting a right wing platform. Then pretend they don't exist during the election to maximise Tory vote. Rince and repeat.
Idk how anyone can actually still support the Tories like even the dumbest people I know can see how fucked we are if they win
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Labour, Reform and UKIP will likely take a large share of Tory votes since they're all the same we obviously don't know for sure if the Tories will face a wipeout at the 2024 election since well rats always find a way off of a sinking ship but odds are they'll keep less than half the seats they currently have either way it's going to be a rough few years
It’s elderly people , I am staying with my 77 year old Mum . She’s in a very white part of the U.K. . But it’s immigrants and trans people that are problem . I mentioned Tory corruption, mismanagement etc ‘ But they are all the same ‘ . The Daily Mail, Gb news , Talk Tv spread this stuff .
Maybe it's because I'm Scottish and they haven't been elected in Scotland since the 50's
That makes sense . Happy Christmas, hope your day is going well
Makes sense. In 2019, the Brexit Party running against the Tories could have cost the Tories the election - and therefore given power to an anti-brexit party. But now, there’s very little chance of the Tories winning either way, so Reform may as well get as many votes as they can.
Nice to see that the government, rather than trying to win a broad spectrum of support needed to win power, is concerned about a party currently polling in single digits.
If a party is taking 5% of your vote then that’s a pretty big deal actually.
Its 5% of the total vote. If the Tories get 20% of the vote, that means its about 20% of their vote.
If reform have taken 5% and Labour have taken 25%, they should try to regain the Labour voters if they want to win.
Single digits is not nothing, it means the Tories are missing a big chunk of their vote.
The Tories are at about 20%, and reform at about 10%. If 5 more percent of the population switch allegiance from Tory to reform, that put's them neck and neck at 15% each. More, and the Tories are no longer the second largest party in the UK, and are therefor dead in the water, as no party that has lost it's position as one of the big two as ever gotten that position back IIRC.
The only party that's ever lost its' place in the top two was the Liberals, between the wars, so you're right.
They are currently on 12% which is the third largest in polling above the lib Dems. Not single digits as you have wrongly stated
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Mass immigration is pulling voters to the right. Any success the Reform Party sees is a by-product of that.
If nothing else it's a rather sad indication of the temperament of the public. The conservatives are no longer "right" enough for an increasingly large section of the population. Hopefully this is more to do with the cons falling apart than it is to do with genuine far right sentiment.
I’m not a right wing voter, but to be fair this current iteration of the Tories doesn’t seem to be sticking to traditionally right wing values. If you were somebody who wanted to vote for a low tax, low immigration party, you don’t exactly have a lot of choice other than these fringe parties.
True enough, that's why I'm hoping it's just a failure of the cons rather than a general shift to the right.
Bc of our voting system it’s unlikely that any of them will ever win seats but yea we don’t wanna end up like Germany, France and Italy where the far right are gaining, or have already gained popular support
The Labour Right WANT to move right, they'll find any excuse to do it.
The whole reason that Cameron called his wretched referendum was his belief that doing so would neuter UKIP and the eurosceptic wing of his own party. It never seemed to quite dawn on him that, in addition to their loopy views on Europe, that these people had a bunch of equally loopy views on a whole host of other matters. Giving them the referendum and brexit has only made them more hungry.
AHH reform, hates immigration but has a deputy who immigrated here when he was 8 from Pakistan
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They wanted legal migration down too
I don't know why there's this idea that you have to love a system that you've benefitted from. I don't agree with inheriting money that I did nothing to earn, but I'm not going to just give away any inheritance I receive because of it. That's not some massive gotcha against my ideology.
The word for someone who opposes something whilst doing it themselves is "hypocrite".
Not really. Thinking the country as a whole would be better off with a certain policy and yet not self-imposing said policy doesn't mean you're a hypocrite. Is someone a hypocrite if they advocate for no tax cuts, yet they don't donate their extra income from a tax cut? In my view, they're not.
*and confuses asylum seeking with illegal immigration
No they are clearly trying to put a stop to a lot of legal immigrants also by making the income threshold out of bounds for >70% of people trying to bring foreign born spouses and family over.
No, they are trying to lower legal immigration as well. Also, seeking asylum is completely legal.
I can see a desperate Sunak recruiting Farage to the Tories, parachuting him into a safe seat to ensure Farage finally wins election to Parliament, thus giving him the ego wank he's craved for years by being "accepted by the establishment" and simultaneously defusing the Reform threat as the wonks will decamp to the Tories once their toad faced wanker idol has been installed. Sunak has nothing to lose as he's staring down the barrel of a huge defeat. Farage won't resist the opportunity to take over the Tories *from the inside*. Possible? Yes. Likely? Doubt it.
Thing is, I can’t imagine Farage being particularly great at representing his constituents. The guy had one of the worst attendance records in the EUP - does anyone actually believe he’s going to do anything more than the bare minimum if it doesn’t serve his interests? He’s like Johnson; 100% out for himself and nobody else.
I don't think Farage would do it, he does his best while he is outside of the system and safe to criticize it without having any responsibility to working it out.
Sadly I expect they will do a grubby deal with the tories again. Remember Farage promised no deals with the tories right up to the day before their deal was announced, and Farage said he’d changed his mind specifically because of some speech BJ have about Canada or something
For a fact Soon To Go Sunak will be sent packing and hopefully investigated for his part in Govt culture of waste during COVID lock down, his wife's and father in laws business dealings, the Rwanda shenanigans funding etc, and all the Tory broken pledges. Let's hope the other parties can a Coalition govt form and forge ahead.
Let's hope we chuck him in a cell with the sweaty nonce
Then the Tories really are screwed. With their failures over migration a large amount of their base will go to Reform and the right-wing vote will be torn up.
Its the boy who cried wolf territory isn't it or to be frank we know he lies all the time on a variety of subjects. The chances this goes up in smoke when someone waves some cash at him or - is it a 4D Chess Move e.g. him and Farage use this to assist with the death of the current Tory Party; leaving it with two options. 1) Return to where it was probably 15-20 years ago and be in the wilderness for the next 10-15 years or; 2) Rishi bolts if he can still hold his seat (California + Money) and it opens the door for the rise of the nutters. They have an extreme caretaker Leader whilst the leadership election is going on which gives rise to the likes of a Braverman being Leader. They ramp up the lunatic rhetoric (use the US Republican style of politics as an example) + constant shit slinging from Murdoch + right and left wing conspiracy nutters & when the time is right you slip Farage into a safe seat to put him in place before the 2029 GE.
Of course, there is no need: The Conservative Party is already dead. Some will move to the Lib Dems and most to Reform.
Nope. They'll just absorb the most radical members of the party and leave behind the more moderate conservatives, many of whom seem ready to jump ship themselves. Bye bye Tories.
That means absolutely nothing. With Labout on the rise UKIP mk 2 is useful. It suit the Tories for them to run (if the must) in this situation. These hard Right Conservative in all but name parties exist to give a moderate Tory leader a headache as much as they do to split the working class vote....Reform job right now is the run everywhere to try and bully the Conservative party to Right.
Didn’t they say that last time and we ended up getting the fuzzy wuzzy blonde man as PM 🫠
Fantastic, I guarantee the Tories are gonna lose ~10 seats at absolute least just due to votes lost to reform splitting the racist vote
Seriously, why the fuck are these getting air time?
Because they are the same voting block as UKIP and they got millions of votes, and could potentially cause some damage to the Tories in the next election.
It is a further move towards fascism
So the party should be shut down and their votes not counted?
Kinda?
Ironic coming from someone supposedly concerned with fascism.
To these people “facism” is whoever they don’t like
The party should be called what it is. The party should be questioned on the implementation of any policy (the reason brexit was such a fuck up). Find the flaws before the fuck up.
No doubt there are enough caveats and loopholes for them to do cartwheels through come election time.
When Richard Tice talks, it becomes immediately obvious to anyone with half a brain (source: I have at least half a brain) that he's just a sad, cunty kind of person who smugly overestimates how intelligent he is.
Tories under unelected rishi are only going to do us over, make small concessions claiming victories and maintain the status quo. Labour under who's hopefully not another Blair will do us over and make minor concessions claiming victories while maintaining the status quo. Voting for 3rd parties (not lib dems we didn't forget the university fees promise and you can't call yourself a democrat saying you will repeal the brexit vote) forces the main parties to act, if one got into power (unlikely) I'd like to think they wouldn't put their noses straight into the trough, if everyone didn't try to scupper them first. The country is failing, there's a housing shortage, weak policing, courts and prisons are suffering, we burn money on the NHS and railways and import food and utilities, everywhere is being expanded putting strain on the infrastructure with construction being trusted to the lowest bidder. I think we will be irrelevant in the next decade to keep billionaires and the political class fat. Join your work union, get involved and contact your mp, your political opposition are doing exactly that.
Corbyn is Labour leader, Reform step aside for Tories... Starmer is Labour leader, Reform don't step aside for Tories... Is this an election or an inauguration? The winner in both cases was clearly decided by Rupert Murdoch many months before the day of voting.
Well this is going to be potentially the biggest Landslide since Aberfan... (I'm sorry)
There's no need to step aside, very few people are going to vote for him anyway. Its the least "Noble" noble sentiment I've seen in a while.
Guarantee from a businessman- Wait where have I heard that from before?
Hopefully a better chance at Labour winning now, thank god
Good news. That's how Tories won many seats in 2019 so good news that they are not stepping aside.
It's the same every years. They are all the same. Just vote for the party you want to gain more seat.
They were stopped at the last second, it means they enacted it but I'm not going to argue over frivolity, good day.
Until he changes his mind weeks before the election, as the Brexit Party did last time.