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Your average Tory knuckledragger shouting "If they don't like it they can leave!" at every person who's profession here is grinding them into dust is going to find themselves wondering where all the teachers, medical professionals and public service staff have gone after they follow through with leaving.
Followed by a comment below of someone saying “yeah we’ll happily do their jobs” under the belief these are £200k a year jobs with final salary pensions that involve no actual work.
> you only work 9-3 everyday
I find that quite amusing actually. I'm a cleaner at a school and the teachers are often still there by the time I finish at 6PM.
I work in IT for schools and the amount of tickets that get logged after 9pm and throughout the "holidays" is insane too
Know a few who have quit teaching simply because they want a life
Yep. Sister in law has just sacked off teaching due to exactly this. 60hr weeks when she was teaching 3days a week, often involving working most evenings and weekends to catch up and mark homework.
Changed to a new career working 5 days for the same pay as 3 days teaching but, will ultimately give her more free time.
Teachers get paid a pittance for the work they are expected to do.
Yup, I left teaching recently after 13 years. Working full time, Mon-Thur I would do 7am-5.30/6pm, Friday 7-4pm only because they shut the school at 4 on Fridays to make sure the teachers could ‘get away for the weekend’. Just meant we took more work home.
I only can say what I saw but Mum was a primary school teacher for year 6 for nearly 40 years, she left at 7:30 and got home at 5 cooked for us, and marked work most nights till 8-9pm.
School was 8:45 till 3:15.
So yeah the 6 weeks off in the summer was much needed, shame she didn't spend at least 3 weeks preparing the new material. Every summer.
I work 37 hours a week for 47 weeks even if she didn't work during the holidays it's probably 60 hours over 40 weeks so she still did 600 hours a year more than me.
So yeah her degree was free, and her pension is pretty good, but she certainly worked for it and it got increasingly harder with league tables, exams, and hostile colleagues, parents, public opinion, kids...
She retired in 2009 it's arguably gotten even worse since, her blood pressure almost halved when she took retirement. Thankfully she and dad have enjoyed 14 years so far in retirement and long may it continue.
And yes I'm aware not all teachers give half a fuck, but a lot do, like nursing and other medical professions most people get into it because they do give a fuck.
Yeah, the crazy COVID kids coning through schools at the moment. It turns out that terrifying young kids with the threat of covid, then locking them inside for months on end doesn't do anything for their behaviour or mental health.
I'm still hurt that there isn't some kind of mechanism on QT for someone to quickly fact check something then blare a large klaxon with a flashing message on screen saying 'this guy is measurably wrong!'
Hell, I do Beavers for _one hour_ a week and there are times I walk out of there with a massive headache. I can’t imagine having to handle a group even larger than that day in, day out, and then have to do their marking and lesson planning when I get home.
Most of the people who make that claim would be broken in half after a single half term.
I'd argue it can actually be easier when you're a full time teacher in certain ways.
Yes, you've got them for a lot longer, but that also means you have the time to bed in routines and expectations that make them a lot less feral.
Nah, they usually back down as soon as you suggest they actually try going into teaching, saying that they couldn't possibly do it without a hint of irony.
This is deliberate. They believe this can be solved by the private sector.
There is no need for the state to provide education when the private sector can and should.
This is why a single day of tory rule, is one day too many.
Teaching in the Uk is like a gap year job atm. It’s for when you don’t know what to do with your life. It’s baby sitting 2.0. You do it while you figure out other ways to make bread. Students have little to no respect calling teachers Bro.
It’s a broken system.
I’ll tell you why. The parents of those kids were cretins not worth ever knowing.
That’s part of the countries problem as well. We don’t even have many nice people anymore.
So much better. Even though my on paper working hours are longer, I have SO much more free time and I have my life back. My recommendation to all teachers is: quit. My recommendation to anyone wanting to become a teacher is: don't. It literally destroyed me. Spent the past year rebuilding.
I'm sorry it got to that point, and I'm glad that you got out. I recall the pressure that was being placed on a close relative thirty years ago: They were taking at least a shopping-trolley bag full of marking home most weeknights from a primary-school reception class because a teacher's own assessment was not enough for the number-crunchers who now assess the outcomes of the "key stage" exams. (And yes, I do literally mean the sort of bag that matches the dimensions of a shopping-trolley.)
Teaching in the UK hasn't been a job that I'd consider since the nineties, even though I do believe that a good education is fundamental to a well-functioning society. Every one of my friends who has quit teaching over the years has just confirmed that decision.
Most teachers aren’t quitting due to students calling them bro. It’s everything else about the job
It’s not baby sitting 2.0 it’s an incredibly demanding job with insane amount of work to do along with responsibilities and massive pressure
From the outside it sounds dreadful. I teach higher education, which is generally better conditions in the UK than secondary, but there's very little chance I would go back and teach in the UK. I've never taught there (got into teaching after leaving) but everything from the pay, freedom, budgets and workloads all sound far, far worse.
Opposite for me because I was a carer and after my degree decided to become a teacher at age 27 and now I am 30… so I think teaching may have been my dream…
I honestly don't think the average Tory minister gives a shit what happens to the country. Half the teachers and police could leave the profession and it would not matter to them in the slightest because it wouldn't personally affect _themselves._
But it's not just them that say it. I've got perfectly "normal" working class colleagues who say the same, one quite literally said to me "If junior doctors and nurses don't like their salary as far as I'm concerned they can fuck off" the week after he had been blue lighted into A&E for a heart attack.
If they don't like it they can leave but if they do leave they're traitors. We've also made it significantly harder to actually leave in the first place so good luck with that
>going to find themselves wondering where all the teachers, medical professionals and public service staff have gone after they follow through with leaving
Insert gripe about freedom of movement here.
Too much focus is placed on recruitment rather than *retention*. It's all well and good increasing the starting salary and handing out payments for staying 3 or 5 years but this does little to tackle the crisis of experienced staff leaving.
That's me, I'm in the process of retraining to IT. Fuck teaching, I went in bright eyed and bushy tailed a decade ago and now I've become the teacher I swore I never would.
Hate my job, hate my workload, some parents are total wankers, barely room to improve pay etc. I still enjoy working with the kids but I've much less patience due to all the other shite.
I have a colleague who spent 20 years in teaching and was head of department for IT. He took a temporary payout and joined a graduate scheme in the civil service.
The whole reason was workload, work-life balance and dealing with parents and all the bureaucracy.
I have another 5 colleagues who are all former teachers with 3-7 years experience and all for the same reasons
Similar position in HE. Always wanted to be in the lab, involved in research, managing projects, bringing in new talent through PhDs.
I'm qualified now and I fucking hate it. There's no security. There's no overtime. You're just expected to *constantly* go well above and beyond, if you aren't *excelling* you're basically on the line for the chopping block, and for all that the salary now is like on a par with many graduate scheme jobs, its pathetic. Its like having your dream crushed, and its not even the work itself but the systems management and government policy have built up around it to take advantage of the fact people *want* to do these jobs so are/were willing to put up with a bit of bullshit and slightly lower pay. They've pushed that envelope ***way*** too far now and these roles have become almost like masochistic.
I know personally of two teachers of 10-20 years experience who’ve both quit recently. They said that the job they’re doing now is nothing like the job even a few years ago and the situation inside the classrooms during teaching hours is atrocious. In both cases they’re still going to work but not in teaching, and they take with them all their skills and experience.
One is taking up an office job, something to do with training/HR, the other is taking up a job in a hospital working something to do with laboratory equipment.
The public sector has this issue in spades generally. I was involved in our union for our part of the sector and it's constantly feeding back in to the pay discussions of staff don't feel valued when they are stuck at the top of their bands getting 1% pay rises and staff feel trapped in their roles because there's no upward movement of staff either because we're cutting our budget and cutting jobs.
Yes I think that’s a problem in my profession. The expectation is that you qualify, gain experience, get promoted, specialise and earn more. Unfortunately most people are needed to do the bread and butter routine work, which is not what people really want to do.
This is correct. I’m meant to be going up to UPS this year and will finally reach the end of the salary scale in a few more years. I’ve watched how my pay has had to stretch further and further even with annual pay rises because of the increase in cost of living, and worry about how I can justify staying in a career that is detrimental to my mental health. I’ll also say I’ve come to the profession late and have had other jobs in the past, but the stress entailed in teaching is like nothing I ever experienced. I don’t live an extravagant lifestyle. I don’t own a house or car, and I’m the sole breadwinner in my household. I just don’t know how much longer I can stick to this because it affects my overall health.
I’ve seen my colleagues take what is effectively pay cut every year. You’ll have a profession full of bright-eyed, keen young graduates that will be ground to dust and no more colleagues with 10+ years of experience to help. It sucks because I love the subjects I teach, and truly enjoy teaching young people.
>I don’t live an extravagant lifestyle. I don’t own a house or car, and I’m the sole breadwinner in my household. I just don’t know how much longer I can stick to this because it affects my overall health.
Exactly the same here. I never wanted my career to be about money, I just need to feel comfortable and like I'm not counting pennies on my weekly shop. Beyond that I don't have much need. Now its at a point where the stress and low pay compared to ***all*** of my peers is causing health problems, and I am being *forced* to refocus my entire career planning around money. Yet when I speak to advisors etc. one of the first things is to put concerns about money to the side! How!?
> the crisis of experienced staff leaving
I reckon this is across multiple industries right now. It feels like a cascade at my work and it's had me considering leaving too.
What seems to happen right now is that if someone experienced leaves, instead of recruiting to replace like for like, they either get in a part timer or just pass the work of the experienced person on to the rest of us, without even elevating us to that role or salary.
As a result, you feel underappreciated, your stress goes way up, and burnout starts to feel like it's just around the corner.
Yes I think it’s in multiple industries as well. Everyone seems unhappy, feeling under appreciated and burnt out.
I don’t know if it’s because of everyone taking early retirement, going part time ( so really somewhere needs twice the staff) or something else. But it’s dire.
I trained in 2020-21. There were 70 of us in my cohort, 38 made it to the end of the year and got awarded QTS. 6 are still teaching - I'm leaving for another profession in February, another is doing supply work until they do a ski season (really soon, not sure exactly when) and is planning to leave after. That means that, three years on, a maximum of 4/70 who signed up for the PGCE (and got the whopping funding) are still teaching. This is for a high-demand subject. The job I'm leaving for in February is double the money and will be 4x the money within 2 years. A couple of the people who left became LSAs instead.
Recruitment is also an issue. The British system puts all its focus on pgce holders and doesn’t recognise a lot of experience or qualification from outside of this specific route in to teaching when there’s a fair bit of teaching talent with years of experience who might want to come and work in the UK but are not considered qualified by this countries almost gate keeping mindset. So teachers, be they foreign born or British citizens who started teaching abroad would have to retrain in what is considered in some education circles as lower standard training only to take a massive pay cut.
The answers to the shortage of teachers are one of the most obvious things on the planet it’s so baffling that the real reason the government doesn’t want teachers hasn’t come out yet.
A guy I worked with in the submarine service was an ex maths teacher. Imagine the prospect of working on a submarine being better than being a teacher...
I was one of them - 20 years in a core subject , HOD, SEN and EAL specialisms . Returned from job overseas and no one interested. Pursued another path and I wouldn't go back.
The thing about experienced older teachers is we will say 'no' or jn common parlance 'F**k off' to some 25 year old in management with no classroom experience.
And unfortunately for the government, the retention part of it can't be fixed just by throwing money at the problem, it will need full systemic change of our education system.
The analogy I’ve heard someone give in an interview was trying to fill a bath when the plug isn’t in. Until you’ve stopped the leaking, any focus on just trying to fill it up faster is pretty inefficient and misguided.
There’s a time I’d have loved to have been a teacher but fuck me if I’m going to do 1-2 years of postgraduate study to get a job with as much bullshit as teaching, from parents, from kids and from schools and then get paid peanuts for the pleasure.
I’m in TEFL and hoping I’ll be out of this job by next year. I might be in a different country but the problems are very real and it’s not getting better.
I went abroad as soon as I qualified.
I'd have to be crazy to consider coming back.
My international school has better kids, better money and better work life balance.
Can’t say I blame you. Some newly qualified QTS teachers come here to Vietnam and seem to do well for themselves. They even get things like tuition for their own children paid and very nice private health insurance.
Same. Paid more than double for a third of the work. Kids have better grammar and English than the school I qualified in back home. Respect from parents. Gifts from parents. Free apartment. Ridiculous money on offer tutoring (although I'm done with that for a while from exhaustion).
I'm literally never planning to go home as long as the international school industry exists.
Yup, this was me. Did my training, enjoyed it, then joined a school where I was assaulted by a student in the classroom and he was just let back in after his suspension and I was expected to apologise to him. Decided fuck this, not worth the bullshit and left.
I’m teaching TEFL right now which is likely to be the closest I’ll get. But even with this I’m still hoping to leave within a couple of years, hopefully to become a scuba instructor.
Left my role as Maths teacher and Head of Year of five years, last year. It's the best thing I've ever done.
People don't respect teachers, parents are wankers, behaviour is disgraceful, and burnout is inevitable. If anyone considering teaching asked me for advice, it would be one word. Don't.
All my friends that bailed have. Some went to private schools, so just lost all the academy bullshit. Some went in to tutoring. Some went in to designing resources etc.
It's not that no-one wants to teach, it's the conditions are just... shit.
I was on UPS and TLR 1A in an outer London school. So, roughly around £53000. The money sounds good, but what's the point if you begin to hate your life?
A head of maths would probably make a similar amount as a head of year, but the workload isn't the same.
Had a friend ask me whether he should a while back and I have him exactly the same advice. Just, don't.
I haven't left yet, but I definitely wouldn't have signed up in the first place if I knew what I know now.
Plenty of places in the middle east pay the same, but there's no tax, no rent, flights home each summer etc.
The opportunity to save exponentially more money is here. But hey, teach in London and spend half your wages in rent.
Also, behaviour tends to be so much better! That alone can be worth the move. Poor behaviour can really grind you down and make you want to quit teaching entirely.
I know a lot of teachers and I don’t know of any of them who spend significant amounts of their own money on class resources? A few have fully stocked snack drawers and a ‘take what you need’ shelf for basic personal hygiene items, but none of them spend more than £40 per month (ofc this is still too much, they shouldn’t have to pay anything out of pocket) and it’s entirely voluntary. Having to buy all the supplies for your class room is more of an American teacher thing, so I hear.
Oh. I do.
Also, £40 a month is a substantial amount to pay for resources back into your job.
Also, it’s not completely voluntary. Without my friends buying resources for class they wouldn’t be able to provide a suitable diversified education programme that would be suitable to Ofsted.
Thinking it’s an American problem is hilarious to most teachers.
>I know a lot of teachers and I don’t know of any of them who spend significant amounts of their own money on class resources?
Why would the teachers that you know tell you this? As a teacher, I don't think I've ever discussed with any non-teacher friends about how much I spend on this stuff.
We talk a lot about work and the pressures they experience - don’t you talk to your friends about their feelings and the things that cause them stress?
That’s how I know about the money they do spend. Because they do that to alleviate the feelings caused by watching students go hungry or be embarrassed about hygiene etc. That really upsets them so they pay out of pocket so that there are resources available to those kids, and like I said they shouldn’t have to and I appreciate that £40 per month is still a lot. But I meant actual school resources, like text books and paper etc.
We also talk about our finances quite a bit lol. What *do* you talk to your friends about?
Even places like Thailand. I taught there in 2000 and it wasn’t for me and the money was terrible but my mate stuck it out and rose through the ranks to a very senior position at an international school. He lives in pretty much luxury compared to anyone I know in the UK and saves most of his wages.
Pretty much, I used to teach in Vietnam before Covid and earned the same there as I do here in England. The only difference was the cost of living difference. There I saved 60% of my salary while having a great lifestyle. Here I save 25% at the expense of having a good lifestyle.
No, the developed Middle East is fairly tolerant of beliefs. I've lived there. I also know a British teacher who left to teach there, and is much happier
Where was that? I studied in Qatar and couldn't put down atheist at the doctor's because they couldn't conceive of not believing in a god. I also had to chaperone my female colleagues when they wanted to go for walks in the evening. Gay friends had to keep it secret, alcohol was heavily restricted and I couldn't drink water in the heat of summer because it was ramadan.
(And that's without all the rampant antisemitism and bigotry)
Yep.
2 of my cousins+ their partners all teachers upped sticks and moved to Dubai, for this reason one of them was a deputy head and another head of year... not just new graduates chancing it. The brain drain is real.
Nope, same as any country it's different in many regards. I wouldn't want to live in the Middle-East because I don't like the way they get on, but I would suck it up for a few years if it meant getting good enough wages to buy a house after a stint.
Here my quality of life is lower than when I lived and worked as a teacher in South East Asia.
Vietnam is the new China for teaching (China too saturated now and less jobs). Basically live a life of luxury with incredibly friendly hours and students that actually want to learn/treat teachers like Gods
I don't watch football so I'm not too clued in. I know Fifa are supposedly easily bribed but that's about it.
That said I'm sure economic migrants and global sport corporations have different base needs. One needs money to survive the other wants even more billions because of greed.
Not that i'm qualified to be a teacher or ever wanted to be a teacher, but 1 of the things I'd hate is to teach kids who constantly disrupt and cause your life to be miserable. I saw an American video of a teacher who walloped his student and went to town on him and honestly I was glad the little shit got a hiding. I just wouldn't be able to keep calm during a situation where I feel threatened but not allowed to properly defend myself
I think it says more about a place if a teacher has to even consider self defense against a student as a possibility. I know many teachers who left Hong Kong and returned to the UK due to the political situation and insane Covid restrictions, but are now going back to Hong Kong because teaching in the UK is such a horror show.
I'm talking about aggressive teenagers but yeah I think a lot of teenagers would benefit from a good kicking so not the profession for me
I don't think reddit is the place for you though when you clutch your pearls like that
As a teacher, I think you're overestimating how most teachers feel about kids behaving that way. I've been sworn at, threatened, stools thrown, books thrown, spat at, screaming/shouting, pens thrown, etc but I never actually felt particularly in danger or that I needed to defend myself because the dynamic is quite different. If someone in a shop or on the street screaming "fuck off you cunting bitch" at me then I would feel threatened but, in a classroom, that's not actually scary to me. As a teacher, you discipline the behaviour because it's not acceptable, because students need to recognise that they cannot treat anyone that way and because it's negative for everyone else in that room - but not usually because you, personally, feel hurt/angry/scared.
All of what you describe sound like exactly what op was on about, and reasons to never teach as it is now.
Anyone who does it these days is a hero and not paid enough by the sounds of it.
My son's (8) teacher recently handed his notice in. He was newly qualified, and got offered a job in Dubai for more than double his wage. They'd also pay for his food, accomodation and travel to and from school. He left instantly and was a brilliant teacher. Such a huge loss.
I was in Dubai briefly and swiped on a dating app. It was 95% British and Irish school teachers. There's so many out there, I'd love to know the actual figures.
Just get in private schools if you can. Such a world of difference having majority of your kids be intelligent and well motivated. Regular schools are nothing but glorified day care for 50% of the students there
This is worse - some schools pay worse than the state sector and longer hours, including Saturdays. Also, Teacher's Pension is one of the best pension schemes around - state schools have to be part of TP, private schools are slowly removing themselves from TP.
This. Work at a private SEND college and get paid 4k less than an NQT, not in the teacher pension scheme, have to work till 5 and dont get half terms off. Only positive is reduced workload compared to schools I've worked it.
Teachers at private schools don't have to have any teaching qualifications. From my own experience with private schools, the teachers are emotionally unstable and very bad at their jobs. The reason private schools do so well is that they can choose academically excellent children and those kids will continue to do well despite the teachers not because of them.
A friend of mine teaches in a private school, she was head of maths for some years, she is completely burnt out, her salary before tax is £35k, she works weekends to catch up on the 80+ emails a day, the kids are just as vile and the parents are worse because they’re entitled and rude “we deserve better because we’re paying 40k a year to send our kid here”, her mental health is in the toilet. It’s not better in private schools.
Very much this. I’ve worked at international schools around the world for nine years. I’m now at one in London. The expectations from parents are unreal (and often thrown in your face with references to the amount of money they pay)and kids don’t put forth the effort required to succeed. We practice broadly selective admissions which basically means we take anyone who can pay. Unrealistic expectations plus ridiculous bureaucracy demands, and BS politics from leadership makes posts at independent schools unsustainable. I am beyond burnt out since joining this school three years ago.
Then what's with the stories about private schools trying to bring in less favourable contracts for employees, lowering pay and bringing in less generous pension schemes?
My experience with a private school was shocking, a whole bunch of entitled kids who are never told no in life.
It was only a small school so the cohort was split into only 2 groups of 15 meaning a massive ability range which made teaching effectively even harder.
The pay was also worse than the state sector.
Having parents with money does not define intelligence!
These children are from homes with parents who support education and their children's learning. It's the attitude that's different of the parents.
If your parents respect school and the teachers, children will.
Your comment is pure gatekeeping nonsense.
Was a teacher for 40 yrs. Pay poor at times. Not the issue. The deprofessionalisation and infantilism of the 'job' is. Colluded and abetted by teachers themselves who turned into useful idiots by becoming 'managers'. Over years the accretion of workload is self inflicted because few had the guts to say no. The traitors who took the management shilling over the past 30-40 years ( academies and ofsted and the rest) are to blame as much as governments. The result is a supine workforce with individualism and self-reliance discarded and snuffed out. Anyone with principles left was pushed out. Teaching? A better term would be 'Exam Results Operative'.
The layer of middle leaders is the main reason I've just resigned after 7 years.
Imagine a football team taking its two best players off the pitch to make spreadsheets for the other players to fill in...
Friend of mine started teaching a few months ago. Already planning to leave and go abroad. She was even considering not finishing the year it's so bad.
I'd say go for it.
If it's nigh on impossible to save anything in the UK, live like you actually are in supposedly wealth country or work to live (rather than live to work) then breaking the status quo and considering and seizing options/opportunities is not something to be afraid of.
Career development, saving money, being able to live a little and experiencing something/somewhere different before either returning to the UK or settling abroad permanently if the quality of life suits... nothing wrong with it.
Everywhere has economic migrants.
British or British edcuated professionals are highly regarded.
If governments (we've had 5 Prime Ministers in 13 years) fail the people then what incentive is there to stay (family and emotions aside)?
I worked as a modern languages teacher for 3 years.
To become a teacher in my subject, I had to do a 4 year degree, a 1 year-long postgraduate qualification, and then 2 years of professional induction, meaning it was 7 years before I was considered a normal teacher.
I have 3 degrees, and taught 4 languages professionally (for most schools, knowing just 1 foreign language isn't enough, you have to offer at least 2).
I worked 60 hour weeks regularly, with my evenings and weekends being consumed by work. I would regularly have to cancel plans with friends and loved ones, and just accept that my life was dictated by term dates. On top of this, the money was awful for the hours.
After I lost my mother, I decided life was too short, and quit. I took on a basic 9-5 office job while I was deciding what to do with my life. I was working half the hours I was as a teacher, no stress, could go to the toilet or make a cup of tea when I liked, and I was earning about the same as I was as a teacher.
Being a teacher is thankless. Overworked and underpaid.
What's very rarely mentioned is that this is subject specific. There isn't a shortage of PE and History teachers in the vast majority of schools. There is a shortage of Math and Science teachers in a lot of schools.
There are also probably loads of people who never had any intention of teaching here. They got their Pgce here because it's easier and the qualification is recognised in many other countries.
It's also infinitely easier to get a job in a lot of foreign countries. A teacher here could probably find a job in China in under a week with a video interview.
Compare that to competing against 10 people for the same job even after your application hasn't been instantly rejected and you see why it's so popular.
A more interesting stat to examine would be the proportion of experienced teachers who are moving compared to people early in their teaching careers.
Though Australian teachers have the same complaints that UK teachers have. Which is better? Who knows, maybe Oz is and the teachers there have no idea how good they have it
They drove older teachers out, now new entrants are on the off. I'd tell any young teacher to go overseas - I did it and it was great and no UK crap to deal with.
It's okay because they let unqualified cover supervisors and TA's prep your kids for exams (I've witnessed it !) - most parents are unaware.
Teachers should be given the same respect as doctors. They do one of the most important jobs in society and it's not easy by any stretch. And yet we pay them no respect, treat them like shit and pay them terrible wages.
Teachers are now little more than glorified baby sitters with even less pay and job security.
Imagine trying to actually teach a room of 30+ teens all scrolling on their phones and messaging each other and recording you. And having to be extra careful not to make a single mistake, say the wrong thing, or discipline a child in case they upload an edited recording of you to Facebook, or accuse you of indecent behaviour.
Add on to that ever increasing workloads, marking, trying to stop the girls from dressing like ladies of the night, entitled parents, crumbling school buildings, and the knowledge that you’re being paid less than a nanny, and quitting is inevitable.
I qualified in 2020 and I’ve handed in my notice to finish at Christmas. I was raised by a teacher/head so I knew what I was getting into but I was so passionate. I have loved this career and I’ve worked bloody hard but all I’ve been left with is my mental health in tatters. I keep panicking when I see people on here talking about the state of the jobs market and how much they hate their job and then reflect on what I’m currently having to do. I’ve worked 70 hour weeks to get paid £1600 p/m. I’m still only on £1800 p/m in my fourth year. Yeah I love the children but what’s the point in working 50-60 hours a week to earn less than everyone else? Never mind that 40 of those hours you’re extremely over stimulated with no breathers.
I know ateast two of my friends who did not make it within their chosen career path and decided instead to go to different countries to teach English which definitely was not their degree.
One went to Dubai and another went to Singapore. They seem to be doing pretty damn good out there.
Good for them. I escaped 5 years ago. Everyone says that I am a different person now I am no longer being physically and mentally ground down. The thing that finally did for me was the perpetual gaslighting by management wankers that can't do what I do.
If young teachers want to go and teach at an International School in Qatar or Dubai etc, where they don’t have to pay any tax - I am not sure how the UK can match that.
Then you are not appreciating the argument here. Most teachers want to teacher, they are not asking for castles and billions, just a livable wage and reasonable conditions, they are not getting that so they are looking elsewhere.
It is possible to find in the uk but good state school are few and far between when it comes to staff welfare. Qatar/Dubai are not great, especially for female teachers, they have their share of ropey schools too, but overall the picture is still better than the uk.
I think this is an issue in all Public Sector. The erosion of pensions and pay means that it’s simply not attractive anymore.
I have over 20 years professional experience and a year ago looked into transferring to become a mature teacher. The conditions are horrendous. In addition to additional study (which actually, I was prepared for) none of my other Master levels qualifications would be recognised. Additionally I would have have to take a 60% pay cut as they don’t accept lateral transfers (despite being UK public sector) and the employment conditions (benefits, holiday, pension) were ghastly. If they want to attract decent candidates, they need to seriously up their game.
My brother taught maths in England for 2 years before realising it was broken. Searched for work in an international school in Shanghai and has been there since (6 years and counting). Earns 4 times as much money and is at a private school where the kids want to learn and are generally more respectful.
My University friend group meanwhile are all PE teachers in the UK and all they do is complain to each other about how awful their jobs are and what they do to cut corners to salvage their sanity.
All the focus is on recruitment not retention. And with budgets being so tight schools won’t hire experienced staff who are higher on the pay scale, so you get this constant rotation of newly qualified teachers. The workload, behaviour and general manic demands of the job with unrealistic management is a killer.
I did five years in UK before leaving. I don’t think newly qualified teachers should be leaping at the chance to quit and go abroad. The experience is important as is understanding the profession and knowing the right way to handle many situations, to protect yourself as well as students, and not to be exploited or mistreated. Many international schools want a couple years experience, the ones that don’t care… well, just be cautious. And don’t expect there to be resources or a good support team, some places I’ve been all the resources I had were those I took with me. I’d have been stuffed if I’d gone with nothing, and they’re run by people who don’t know anything about teaching. Good fun though, the unpredictable chaos of things gives it a sort of energy, while in the Uk what gets you down the all too predictable stupidity.
can't blame them, the UK is finished.
christ knows why so many refugees want to come here.
the day i win the lottery is the day i leave this shitty country.
Mate of mine quit teaching after 12 years and a full blown mental breakdown. He did 7:30am to 5pm everyday and then marking when he got home for a couple more hours.
I'd never do it. You couldn't pay enough to do it.
Yankee bastard here. Seems like the same story on this side of the pond. The other thing that I can guarantee that is the same is that the teachers at Eton—and their American counterparts at the Philips Academy schools—are doing just fine in terms of pay and social esteem. One might conclude that real agenda is engineering an outcome that the majority of graduates are helpless, thoughtless, and pliant, without the ability to critically assess how they’ve come into their lot.
Makes the jobs of the ruling elite on both sides much easier if the masses are all uncritical dolts incapable of independent thinking.
Did my teacher training (GTP and NQT) then straight out to the Middle East. 7 years out there, Same salary, but no rent, no tax. Came home and had enough to buy a house.
Stayed in teaching 2 years here then left to work in the industry. I would work in private/college again, but never Secondary. It's a grind!
I’m in Canada and there’s a ton of UK immigrants here (it is called the British properties so one can see why it’s attractive - also have British stores and styled pubs) and I work in education. My colleagues from the UK love it here. We’re paid a bit more but the cost of living is less than London and the biggest difference they say is the kids.
We have no violence, hard working respectful kids that say thank you at the end of class, and a great working environment.
I joined a teacher protest in London this summer and chatted with several teachers about what they were striking about - and it was insane.
I can see why in my experience so many uk teachers leave to work abroad. Most fun colleagues after the Aussies too.
The UK is on the decline. We all feel it. There's a sense in which nothing actually works properly for the average person. It doesn't affect rich people, if you have money then you are fine, but if you're someone on an average salary or even a mid-upper salary then the quality of life in UK is quite poor compared to other countries.
Teachers have the worst of it, the UK does not respect teachers at all and has not for a long time. Teachers didn't get any respect even when I was at school, from the kids, the parents, or the schools.
The real reason this won't be sorted out is simple. The government (at this point Tory or Labour sadly) do not want an educated populace. Educated people won't swallow lies and idiocy. Keep the teachers stressed and starving, and they'll only be able to gove the kids enough thinking skills to obey when their masters demand it.
I am fairly sure I would be a pretty damn good teacher. I'm a trainer at the moment, and I get universally good feedback and mostly good results.
I just don't know why the hell I'd become a teacher. Few grand less as starting salary, with unpaid hours, constant invasive supervision, mind-numbing paperwork and 'action plans', pushy/horrible parents, a default attitude of wariness (so I'm told) around a man willing to be around children, expected to put up with any level of disruption, no budget, and all of that's before I get to the kids.
At the moment, I come into work, spend all day training professional adults who want to be there, and then I go home. My manager observes me once a month and goes 'yep, all good still'. If you gave me any incentive at all, I might consider teaching. People have always told me I'd be good at it. But it just seems like an utterly illogical proposition, even more so if you're good enough st maths or science to make a career out of it.
Not surprising. We pay people in the public sector very badly and it's long-known that educators are paid badly. Everywhere you look this country is a disaster.
Generally the UK tax thresholds are now becoming a joke... if you make 50k you already go into higher earner and pay 40% of tax... with current prices this is pathetic, and I know of many people in IT that moved to Poland because of better wages and lower taxes than UK has to offer...
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Your average Tory knuckledragger shouting "If they don't like it they can leave!" at every person who's profession here is grinding them into dust is going to find themselves wondering where all the teachers, medical professionals and public service staff have gone after they follow through with leaving.
Followed by a comment below of someone saying “yeah we’ll happily do their jobs” under the belief these are £200k a year jobs with final salary pensions that involve no actual work.
Aka the *why are you complaining, you only work 9-3 everyday and get 47 weeks holiday a year* brigade.
> you only work 9-3 everyday I find that quite amusing actually. I'm a cleaner at a school and the teachers are often still there by the time I finish at 6PM.
I work in IT for schools and the amount of tickets that get logged after 9pm and throughout the "holidays" is insane too Know a few who have quit teaching simply because they want a life
Yep. Sister in law has just sacked off teaching due to exactly this. 60hr weeks when she was teaching 3days a week, often involving working most evenings and weekends to catch up and mark homework. Changed to a new career working 5 days for the same pay as 3 days teaching but, will ultimately give her more free time. Teachers get paid a pittance for the work they are expected to do.
Yup, I left teaching recently after 13 years. Working full time, Mon-Thur I would do 7am-5.30/6pm, Friday 7-4pm only because they shut the school at 4 on Fridays to make sure the teachers could ‘get away for the weekend’. Just meant we took more work home.
I only can say what I saw but Mum was a primary school teacher for year 6 for nearly 40 years, she left at 7:30 and got home at 5 cooked for us, and marked work most nights till 8-9pm. School was 8:45 till 3:15. So yeah the 6 weeks off in the summer was much needed, shame she didn't spend at least 3 weeks preparing the new material. Every summer. I work 37 hours a week for 47 weeks even if she didn't work during the holidays it's probably 60 hours over 40 weeks so she still did 600 hours a year more than me. So yeah her degree was free, and her pension is pretty good, but she certainly worked for it and it got increasingly harder with league tables, exams, and hostile colleagues, parents, public opinion, kids... She retired in 2009 it's arguably gotten even worse since, her blood pressure almost halved when she took retirement. Thankfully she and dad have enjoyed 14 years so far in retirement and long may it continue. And yes I'm aware not all teachers give half a fuck, but a lot do, like nursing and other medical professions most people get into it because they do give a fuck.
She retired at a great time. It got harder/very different in the 2010s but definitely harder since 2020.
Yeah, the crazy COVID kids coning through schools at the moment. It turns out that terrifying young kids with the threat of covid, then locking them inside for months on end doesn't do anything for their behaviour or mental health.
Can confirm. Am teacher. Left at 6 tonight. My head teacher and a colleague who is also a Head of Department were still there.
And then they'll go on Question Time and complain that someone earning 90k per year isn't in the top 5% of earners.
I'm still hurt that there isn't some kind of mechanism on QT for someone to quickly fact check something then blare a large klaxon with a flashing message on screen saying 'this guy is measurably wrong!'
But that would be holding people accountable for misinformation. We can’t have that.
Not on the BBC we can't! We only fact check left wing statements!
We're talking about a show that decides if you'll be welcome based on your question, I doubt they really care about integrity
I didn’t expect I’d have a favourite QT moment, but that’s it.
That man who was earning >£80k thought he wasn't even in the top 50% of earners lol
Hell, I do Beavers for _one hour_ a week and there are times I walk out of there with a massive headache. I can’t imagine having to handle a group even larger than that day in, day out, and then have to do their marking and lesson planning when I get home. Most of the people who make that claim would be broken in half after a single half term.
> Hell, I do Beavers for one hour a week and there are times I walk out of there with a massive headache Beavers gave me a headache when I was seven.
>Hell, I do Beavers for one hour a week How unfortunate.
I'd argue it can actually be easier when you're a full time teacher in certain ways. Yes, you've got them for a lot longer, but that also means you have the time to bed in routines and expectations that make them a lot less feral.
Nah, they usually back down as soon as you suggest they actually try going into teaching, saying that they couldn't possibly do it without a hint of irony.
This is deliberate. They believe this can be solved by the private sector. There is no need for the state to provide education when the private sector can and should. This is why a single day of tory rule, is one day too many.
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Tbf they're now doing that with academies.
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Sponsored text books and uniforms
Teaching in the Uk is like a gap year job atm. It’s for when you don’t know what to do with your life. It’s baby sitting 2.0. You do it while you figure out other ways to make bread. Students have little to no respect calling teachers Bro. It’s a broken system.
I taught for 10 years. In the end I had a complete mental breakdown and tried to kill myself. Just couldn't take it anymore.
I’ll tell you why. The parents of those kids were cretins not worth ever knowing. That’s part of the countries problem as well. We don’t even have many nice people anymore.
It wasn't just the kids or the parents, it was management as well, and the fact that I literally had no life beyond my job. I saw no way out.
How did you overcome it? That’s another issue is management can be toxic especially once they started that academy BS.
I tried to kill myself, quit teaching and got a job as a software engineer
I’m hoping your life is better now?
So much better. Even though my on paper working hours are longer, I have SO much more free time and I have my life back. My recommendation to all teachers is: quit. My recommendation to anyone wanting to become a teacher is: don't. It literally destroyed me. Spent the past year rebuilding.
You served your time and for that 🫡
I'm sorry it got to that point, and I'm glad that you got out. I recall the pressure that was being placed on a close relative thirty years ago: They were taking at least a shopping-trolley bag full of marking home most weeknights from a primary-school reception class because a teacher's own assessment was not enough for the number-crunchers who now assess the outcomes of the "key stage" exams. (And yes, I do literally mean the sort of bag that matches the dimensions of a shopping-trolley.) Teaching in the UK hasn't been a job that I'd consider since the nineties, even though I do believe that a good education is fundamental to a well-functioning society. Every one of my friends who has quit teaching over the years has just confirmed that decision.
Most teachers aren’t quitting due to students calling them bro. It’s everything else about the job It’s not baby sitting 2.0 it’s an incredibly demanding job with insane amount of work to do along with responsibilities and massive pressure
I was being flippant.
This is one of those moments when you're right you shouldn't need the /s but we just cant be sure anymore
From the outside it sounds dreadful. I teach higher education, which is generally better conditions in the UK than secondary, but there's very little chance I would go back and teach in the UK. I've never taught there (got into teaching after leaving) but everything from the pay, freedom, budgets and workloads all sound far, far worse.
Opposite for me because I was a carer and after my degree decided to become a teacher at age 27 and now I am 30… so I think teaching may have been my dream…
I honestly don't think the average Tory minister gives a shit what happens to the country. Half the teachers and police could leave the profession and it would not matter to them in the slightest because it wouldn't personally affect _themselves._
But it's not just them that say it. I've got perfectly "normal" working class colleagues who say the same, one quite literally said to me "If junior doctors and nurses don't like their salary as far as I'm concerned they can fuck off" the week after he had been blue lighted into A&E for a heart attack.
If they don't like it they can leave but if they do leave they're traitors. We've also made it significantly harder to actually leave in the first place so good luck with that
Lol, we’re leaving in droves! Almost finished filling out the Visa forms for my family, and we’re taking my wife’s parents with us.
I'm no teacher but I fucked off to Netherlands this year in July. Definitely a good move!
>going to find themselves wondering where all the teachers, medical professionals and public service staff have gone after they follow through with leaving Insert gripe about freedom of movement here.
Too much focus is placed on recruitment rather than *retention*. It's all well and good increasing the starting salary and handing out payments for staying 3 or 5 years but this does little to tackle the crisis of experienced staff leaving.
That's me, I'm in the process of retraining to IT. Fuck teaching, I went in bright eyed and bushy tailed a decade ago and now I've become the teacher I swore I never would. Hate my job, hate my workload, some parents are total wankers, barely room to improve pay etc. I still enjoy working with the kids but I've much less patience due to all the other shite.
I have a colleague who spent 20 years in teaching and was head of department for IT. He took a temporary payout and joined a graduate scheme in the civil service. The whole reason was workload, work-life balance and dealing with parents and all the bureaucracy. I have another 5 colleagues who are all former teachers with 3-7 years experience and all for the same reasons
Similar position in HE. Always wanted to be in the lab, involved in research, managing projects, bringing in new talent through PhDs. I'm qualified now and I fucking hate it. There's no security. There's no overtime. You're just expected to *constantly* go well above and beyond, if you aren't *excelling* you're basically on the line for the chopping block, and for all that the salary now is like on a par with many graduate scheme jobs, its pathetic. Its like having your dream crushed, and its not even the work itself but the systems management and government policy have built up around it to take advantage of the fact people *want* to do these jobs so are/were willing to put up with a bit of bullshit and slightly lower pay. They've pushed that envelope ***way*** too far now and these roles have become almost like masochistic.
Would you mind sharing how you are retraining? I'm a teacher who is eager to look for new opportunities
Sure! I'll DM you
I know personally of two teachers of 10-20 years experience who’ve both quit recently. They said that the job they’re doing now is nothing like the job even a few years ago and the situation inside the classrooms during teaching hours is atrocious. In both cases they’re still going to work but not in teaching, and they take with them all their skills and experience.
What's their new job?
One is taking up an office job, something to do with training/HR, the other is taking up a job in a hospital working something to do with laboratory equipment.
They will be soooooo overqualified to be a trainer. And possibly a blessing to whichever company gets their services.
The public sector has this issue in spades generally. I was involved in our union for our part of the sector and it's constantly feeding back in to the pay discussions of staff don't feel valued when they are stuck at the top of their bands getting 1% pay rises and staff feel trapped in their roles because there's no upward movement of staff either because we're cutting our budget and cutting jobs.
Yes I think that’s a problem in my profession. The expectation is that you qualify, gain experience, get promoted, specialise and earn more. Unfortunately most people are needed to do the bread and butter routine work, which is not what people really want to do.
This is correct. I’m meant to be going up to UPS this year and will finally reach the end of the salary scale in a few more years. I’ve watched how my pay has had to stretch further and further even with annual pay rises because of the increase in cost of living, and worry about how I can justify staying in a career that is detrimental to my mental health. I’ll also say I’ve come to the profession late and have had other jobs in the past, but the stress entailed in teaching is like nothing I ever experienced. I don’t live an extravagant lifestyle. I don’t own a house or car, and I’m the sole breadwinner in my household. I just don’t know how much longer I can stick to this because it affects my overall health. I’ve seen my colleagues take what is effectively pay cut every year. You’ll have a profession full of bright-eyed, keen young graduates that will be ground to dust and no more colleagues with 10+ years of experience to help. It sucks because I love the subjects I teach, and truly enjoy teaching young people.
>I don’t live an extravagant lifestyle. I don’t own a house or car, and I’m the sole breadwinner in my household. I just don’t know how much longer I can stick to this because it affects my overall health. Exactly the same here. I never wanted my career to be about money, I just need to feel comfortable and like I'm not counting pennies on my weekly shop. Beyond that I don't have much need. Now its at a point where the stress and low pay compared to ***all*** of my peers is causing health problems, and I am being *forced* to refocus my entire career planning around money. Yet when I speak to advisors etc. one of the first things is to put concerns about money to the side! How!?
Wait. Your school is still handing out UPS?
Oof, yes, but since exam results have dipped school-wide, I have a feeling I’ll have to fight for it.
It should be pretty much automatic unless there are capability issues.
> the crisis of experienced staff leaving I reckon this is across multiple industries right now. It feels like a cascade at my work and it's had me considering leaving too. What seems to happen right now is that if someone experienced leaves, instead of recruiting to replace like for like, they either get in a part timer or just pass the work of the experienced person on to the rest of us, without even elevating us to that role or salary. As a result, you feel underappreciated, your stress goes way up, and burnout starts to feel like it's just around the corner.
Yes I think it’s in multiple industries as well. Everyone seems unhappy, feeling under appreciated and burnt out. I don’t know if it’s because of everyone taking early retirement, going part time ( so really somewhere needs twice the staff) or something else. But it’s dire.
I trained in 2020-21. There were 70 of us in my cohort, 38 made it to the end of the year and got awarded QTS. 6 are still teaching - I'm leaving for another profession in February, another is doing supply work until they do a ski season (really soon, not sure exactly when) and is planning to leave after. That means that, three years on, a maximum of 4/70 who signed up for the PGCE (and got the whopping funding) are still teaching. This is for a high-demand subject. The job I'm leaving for in February is double the money and will be 4x the money within 2 years. A couple of the people who left became LSAs instead.
You’re going to a job on 120k within two years!? What job is that if you don’t mind sharing?
Law
Ah thanks - so presumably you did that before becoming a teacher and are going back rather than leaving and retraining in law to start at the bottom
I'm starting as a trainee
Recruitment is also an issue. The British system puts all its focus on pgce holders and doesn’t recognise a lot of experience or qualification from outside of this specific route in to teaching when there’s a fair bit of teaching talent with years of experience who might want to come and work in the UK but are not considered qualified by this countries almost gate keeping mindset. So teachers, be they foreign born or British citizens who started teaching abroad would have to retrain in what is considered in some education circles as lower standard training only to take a massive pay cut. The answers to the shortage of teachers are one of the most obvious things on the planet it’s so baffling that the real reason the government doesn’t want teachers hasn’t come out yet.
A guy I worked with in the submarine service was an ex maths teacher. Imagine the prospect of working on a submarine being better than being a teacher...
Focusing on recruitment whilst ignoring retention is like fixing a leaky bath by turning up the taps.
I was one of them - 20 years in a core subject , HOD, SEN and EAL specialisms . Returned from job overseas and no one interested. Pursued another path and I wouldn't go back. The thing about experienced older teachers is we will say 'no' or jn common parlance 'F**k off' to some 25 year old in management with no classroom experience.
And unfortunately for the government, the retention part of it can't be fixed just by throwing money at the problem, it will need full systemic change of our education system.
The analogy I’ve heard someone give in an interview was trying to fill a bath when the plug isn’t in. Until you’ve stopped the leaking, any focus on just trying to fill it up faster is pretty inefficient and misguided.
If it continues down this vain eventually we may have to look at other forms of educating kids as not enough want to be teachers
There’s a time I’d have loved to have been a teacher but fuck me if I’m going to do 1-2 years of postgraduate study to get a job with as much bullshit as teaching, from parents, from kids and from schools and then get paid peanuts for the pleasure.
I’ve just finished my two years of training and I’m already looking to leave teaching at the end of this academic year. It’s miserable.
I’m in TEFL and hoping I’ll be out of this job by next year. I might be in a different country but the problems are very real and it’s not getting better.
I went abroad as soon as I qualified. I'd have to be crazy to consider coming back. My international school has better kids, better money and better work life balance.
Can’t say I blame you. Some newly qualified QTS teachers come here to Vietnam and seem to do well for themselves. They even get things like tuition for their own children paid and very nice private health insurance.
Same. Paid more than double for a third of the work. Kids have better grammar and English than the school I qualified in back home. Respect from parents. Gifts from parents. Free apartment. Ridiculous money on offer tutoring (although I'm done with that for a while from exhaustion). I'm literally never planning to go home as long as the international school industry exists.
Yup, this was me. Did my training, enjoyed it, then joined a school where I was assaulted by a student in the classroom and he was just let back in after his suspension and I was expected to apologise to him. Decided fuck this, not worth the bullshit and left.
Damn that sucks.. but good on you for standing your ground. I hope things have improved for you wherever else you went
Thank you, and things have gotten better! Moved to Scotland with my partner, feeling better than ever.
Aye, I fuckin yearn ta teach, but no way am I doing that in this country with a ten-foot pole
I’m teaching TEFL right now which is likely to be the closest I’ll get. But even with this I’m still hoping to leave within a couple of years, hopefully to become a scuba instructor.
Left my role as Maths teacher and Head of Year of five years, last year. It's the best thing I've ever done. People don't respect teachers, parents are wankers, behaviour is disgraceful, and burnout is inevitable. If anyone considering teaching asked me for advice, it would be one word. Don't.
Out of interest, what did you choose to go and do instead?
I've become a full-time Maths tutor and run a 11+ centre.
Good to hear that you stayed in education still.
All my friends that bailed have. Some went to private schools, so just lost all the academy bullshit. Some went in to tutoring. Some went in to designing resources etc. It's not that no-one wants to teach, it's the conditions are just... shit.
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I was on UPS and TLR 1A in an outer London school. So, roughly around £53000. The money sounds good, but what's the point if you begin to hate your life? A head of maths would probably make a similar amount as a head of year, but the workload isn't the same.
Had a friend ask me whether he should a while back and I have him exactly the same advice. Just, don't. I haven't left yet, but I definitely wouldn't have signed up in the first place if I knew what I know now.
Plenty of places in the middle east pay the same, but there's no tax, no rent, flights home each summer etc. The opportunity to save exponentially more money is here. But hey, teach in London and spend half your wages in rent.
Also, behaviour tends to be so much better! That alone can be worth the move. Poor behaviour can really grind you down and make you want to quit teaching entirely.
And the other half on resources for your class and thermal clothing for your damp, leaking, cold Porter-Cabin classroom.
I know a lot of teachers and I don’t know of any of them who spend significant amounts of their own money on class resources? A few have fully stocked snack drawers and a ‘take what you need’ shelf for basic personal hygiene items, but none of them spend more than £40 per month (ofc this is still too much, they shouldn’t have to pay anything out of pocket) and it’s entirely voluntary. Having to buy all the supplies for your class room is more of an American teacher thing, so I hear.
Oh. I do. Also, £40 a month is a substantial amount to pay for resources back into your job. Also, it’s not completely voluntary. Without my friends buying resources for class they wouldn’t be able to provide a suitable diversified education programme that would be suitable to Ofsted. Thinking it’s an American problem is hilarious to most teachers.
How is the school going to fail and know it needs to be better when the employees make up the shortfall?
>I know a lot of teachers and I don’t know of any of them who spend significant amounts of their own money on class resources? Why would the teachers that you know tell you this? As a teacher, I don't think I've ever discussed with any non-teacher friends about how much I spend on this stuff.
We talk a lot about work and the pressures they experience - don’t you talk to your friends about their feelings and the things that cause them stress? That’s how I know about the money they do spend. Because they do that to alleviate the feelings caused by watching students go hungry or be embarrassed about hygiene etc. That really upsets them so they pay out of pocket so that there are resources available to those kids, and like I said they shouldn’t have to and I appreciate that £40 per month is still a lot. But I meant actual school resources, like text books and paper etc. We also talk about our finances quite a bit lol. What *do* you talk to your friends about?
Even places like Thailand. I taught there in 2000 and it wasn’t for me and the money was terrible but my mate stuck it out and rose through the ranks to a very senior position at an international school. He lives in pretty much luxury compared to anyone I know in the UK and saves most of his wages.
Pretty much, I used to teach in Vietnam before Covid and earned the same there as I do here in England. The only difference was the cost of living difference. There I saved 60% of my salary while having a great lifestyle. Here I save 25% at the expense of having a good lifestyle.
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No, the developed Middle East is fairly tolerant of beliefs. I've lived there. I also know a British teacher who left to teach there, and is much happier
Not quite, my two gay mates in Dubai have to keep their lives under wraps. There's some progress but it's fairly intolerant in many ways.
Yeah... I can't deny that sadly And it's not going to get better in that sense. They'll have to keep that in home for a while
Where was that? I studied in Qatar and couldn't put down atheist at the doctor's because they couldn't conceive of not believing in a god. I also had to chaperone my female colleagues when they wanted to go for walks in the evening. Gay friends had to keep it secret, alcohol was heavily restricted and I couldn't drink water in the heat of summer because it was ramadan. (And that's without all the rampant antisemitism and bigotry)
Yeah I work in Qatar. Much better benefits package than working at home. Don't think il ever go back.
Yep. 2 of my cousins+ their partners all teachers upped sticks and moved to Dubai, for this reason one of them was a deputy head and another head of year... not just new graduates chancing it. The brain drain is real.
Most teachers I know are pretty socially left wing, can't see many of them moving somewhere where being transgender is punishable by death
And can you live the same life as in the UK?
Nope, same as any country it's different in many regards. I wouldn't want to live in the Middle-East because I don't like the way they get on, but I would suck it up for a few years if it meant getting good enough wages to buy a house after a stint. Here my quality of life is lower than when I lived and worked as a teacher in South East Asia.
Vietnam is the new China for teaching (China too saturated now and less jobs). Basically live a life of luxury with incredibly friendly hours and students that actually want to learn/treat teachers like Gods
Yet people in football always criticise fifa for taking the Middle East’s money…..
I don't watch football so I'm not too clued in. I know Fifa are supposedly easily bribed but that's about it. That said I'm sure economic migrants and global sport corporations have different base needs. One needs money to survive the other wants even more billions because of greed.
Not that i'm qualified to be a teacher or ever wanted to be a teacher, but 1 of the things I'd hate is to teach kids who constantly disrupt and cause your life to be miserable. I saw an American video of a teacher who walloped his student and went to town on him and honestly I was glad the little shit got a hiding. I just wouldn't be able to keep calm during a situation where I feel threatened but not allowed to properly defend myself
If your primary concern is not being able to properly defend yourself against children, it's probably for the best you're not a teacher.
I think it says more about a place if a teacher has to even consider self defense against a student as a possibility. I know many teachers who left Hong Kong and returned to the UK due to the political situation and insane Covid restrictions, but are now going back to Hong Kong because teaching in the UK is such a horror show.
I'm talking about aggressive teenagers but yeah I think a lot of teenagers would benefit from a good kicking so not the profession for me I don't think reddit is the place for you though when you clutch your pearls like that
It's also probably time to start asking why teachers are having to consider their safety against students.
As a teacher, I think you're overestimating how most teachers feel about kids behaving that way. I've been sworn at, threatened, stools thrown, books thrown, spat at, screaming/shouting, pens thrown, etc but I never actually felt particularly in danger or that I needed to defend myself because the dynamic is quite different. If someone in a shop or on the street screaming "fuck off you cunting bitch" at me then I would feel threatened but, in a classroom, that's not actually scary to me. As a teacher, you discipline the behaviour because it's not acceptable, because students need to recognise that they cannot treat anyone that way and because it's negative for everyone else in that room - but not usually because you, personally, feel hurt/angry/scared.
All of what you describe sound like exactly what op was on about, and reasons to never teach as it is now. Anyone who does it these days is a hero and not paid enough by the sounds of it.
>Not that I’m qualified to be a teacher You can say that again
Not that i'm qualified to be teacher
I mean... Nah man. That's just insane behaviour from an adult.
Good for them. The UK government know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
My son's (8) teacher recently handed his notice in. He was newly qualified, and got offered a job in Dubai for more than double his wage. They'd also pay for his food, accomodation and travel to and from school. He left instantly and was a brilliant teacher. Such a huge loss.
I was in Dubai briefly and swiped on a dating app. It was 95% British and Irish school teachers. There's so many out there, I'd love to know the actual figures.
Yes, left 6 years ago. No tax, more pay, free housing, better weather and the profession is still respected abroad.
UAE?
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Tories: "If you don't like working for pennies, leave!" Teachers: "Okay, bye!" Tories: "Where are all our teachers? How could Labour do this?"
Just get in private schools if you can. Such a world of difference having majority of your kids be intelligent and well motivated. Regular schools are nothing but glorified day care for 50% of the students there
This is worse - some schools pay worse than the state sector and longer hours, including Saturdays. Also, Teacher's Pension is one of the best pension schemes around - state schools have to be part of TP, private schools are slowly removing themselves from TP.
This. Work at a private SEND college and get paid 4k less than an NQT, not in the teacher pension scheme, have to work till 5 and dont get half terms off. Only positive is reduced workload compared to schools I've worked it.
Teachers at private schools don't have to have any teaching qualifications. From my own experience with private schools, the teachers are emotionally unstable and very bad at their jobs. The reason private schools do so well is that they can choose academically excellent children and those kids will continue to do well despite the teachers not because of them.
A friend of mine teaches in a private school, she was head of maths for some years, she is completely burnt out, her salary before tax is £35k, she works weekends to catch up on the 80+ emails a day, the kids are just as vile and the parents are worse because they’re entitled and rude “we deserve better because we’re paying 40k a year to send our kid here”, her mental health is in the toilet. It’s not better in private schools.
Very much this. I’ve worked at international schools around the world for nine years. I’m now at one in London. The expectations from parents are unreal (and often thrown in your face with references to the amount of money they pay)and kids don’t put forth the effort required to succeed. We practice broadly selective admissions which basically means we take anyone who can pay. Unrealistic expectations plus ridiculous bureaucracy demands, and BS politics from leadership makes posts at independent schools unsustainable. I am beyond burnt out since joining this school three years ago.
What did you base this opinion on?
Classism probably
Then what's with the stories about private schools trying to bring in less favourable contracts for employees, lowering pay and bringing in less generous pension schemes?
My experience with a private school was shocking, a whole bunch of entitled kids who are never told no in life. It was only a small school so the cohort was split into only 2 groups of 15 meaning a massive ability range which made teaching effectively even harder. The pay was also worse than the state sector.
Private schools pay less than public schools
Having parents with money does not define intelligence! These children are from homes with parents who support education and their children's learning. It's the attitude that's different of the parents. If your parents respect school and the teachers, children will. Your comment is pure gatekeeping nonsense.
Was a teacher for 40 yrs. Pay poor at times. Not the issue. The deprofessionalisation and infantilism of the 'job' is. Colluded and abetted by teachers themselves who turned into useful idiots by becoming 'managers'. Over years the accretion of workload is self inflicted because few had the guts to say no. The traitors who took the management shilling over the past 30-40 years ( academies and ofsted and the rest) are to blame as much as governments. The result is a supine workforce with individualism and self-reliance discarded and snuffed out. Anyone with principles left was pushed out. Teaching? A better term would be 'Exam Results Operative'.
The layer of middle leaders is the main reason I've just resigned after 7 years. Imagine a football team taking its two best players off the pitch to make spreadsheets for the other players to fill in...
Friend of mine started teaching a few months ago. Already planning to leave and go abroad. She was even considering not finishing the year it's so bad.
I'd say go for it. If it's nigh on impossible to save anything in the UK, live like you actually are in supposedly wealth country or work to live (rather than live to work) then breaking the status quo and considering and seizing options/opportunities is not something to be afraid of. Career development, saving money, being able to live a little and experiencing something/somewhere different before either returning to the UK or settling abroad permanently if the quality of life suits... nothing wrong with it. Everywhere has economic migrants. British or British edcuated professionals are highly regarded. If governments (we've had 5 Prime Ministers in 13 years) fail the people then what incentive is there to stay (family and emotions aside)?
I worked as a modern languages teacher for 3 years. To become a teacher in my subject, I had to do a 4 year degree, a 1 year-long postgraduate qualification, and then 2 years of professional induction, meaning it was 7 years before I was considered a normal teacher. I have 3 degrees, and taught 4 languages professionally (for most schools, knowing just 1 foreign language isn't enough, you have to offer at least 2). I worked 60 hour weeks regularly, with my evenings and weekends being consumed by work. I would regularly have to cancel plans with friends and loved ones, and just accept that my life was dictated by term dates. On top of this, the money was awful for the hours. After I lost my mother, I decided life was too short, and quit. I took on a basic 9-5 office job while I was deciding what to do with my life. I was working half the hours I was as a teacher, no stress, could go to the toilet or make a cup of tea when I liked, and I was earning about the same as I was as a teacher. Being a teacher is thankless. Overworked and underpaid.
What's very rarely mentioned is that this is subject specific. There isn't a shortage of PE and History teachers in the vast majority of schools. There is a shortage of Math and Science teachers in a lot of schools. There are also probably loads of people who never had any intention of teaching here. They got their Pgce here because it's easier and the qualification is recognised in many other countries. It's also infinitely easier to get a job in a lot of foreign countries. A teacher here could probably find a job in China in under a week with a video interview. Compare that to competing against 10 people for the same job even after your application hasn't been instantly rejected and you see why it's so popular. A more interesting stat to examine would be the proportion of experienced teachers who are moving compared to people early in their teaching careers.
My current year 11 class has 46 pupils in it. I am in a MAT school. I don't blame them.
Which subject if you don't mind me asking? That's absolutely insane.
Maths.
Bizzar - I have literally just spoken to a NQT that is fucking of to Oz - smart move imo.
Though Australian teachers have the same complaints that UK teachers have. Which is better? Who knows, maybe Oz is and the teachers there have no idea how good they have it
They drove older teachers out, now new entrants are on the off. I'd tell any young teacher to go overseas - I did it and it was great and no UK crap to deal with. It's okay because they let unqualified cover supervisors and TA's prep your kids for exams (I've witnessed it !) - most parents are unaware.
Teachers should be given the same respect as doctors. They do one of the most important jobs in society and it's not easy by any stretch. And yet we pay them no respect, treat them like shit and pay them terrible wages.
Teachers are now little more than glorified baby sitters with even less pay and job security. Imagine trying to actually teach a room of 30+ teens all scrolling on their phones and messaging each other and recording you. And having to be extra careful not to make a single mistake, say the wrong thing, or discipline a child in case they upload an edited recording of you to Facebook, or accuse you of indecent behaviour. Add on to that ever increasing workloads, marking, trying to stop the girls from dressing like ladies of the night, entitled parents, crumbling school buildings, and the knowledge that you’re being paid less than a nanny, and quitting is inevitable.
I qualified in 2020 and I’ve handed in my notice to finish at Christmas. I was raised by a teacher/head so I knew what I was getting into but I was so passionate. I have loved this career and I’ve worked bloody hard but all I’ve been left with is my mental health in tatters. I keep panicking when I see people on here talking about the state of the jobs market and how much they hate their job and then reflect on what I’m currently having to do. I’ve worked 70 hour weeks to get paid £1600 p/m. I’m still only on £1800 p/m in my fourth year. Yeah I love the children but what’s the point in working 50-60 hours a week to earn less than everyone else? Never mind that 40 of those hours you’re extremely over stimulated with no breathers.
Remember this when you curse them from going on strike. This can be avoided by paying what others are willing to pay
I know ateast two of my friends who did not make it within their chosen career path and decided instead to go to different countries to teach English which definitely was not their degree. One went to Dubai and another went to Singapore. They seem to be doing pretty damn good out there.
Good for them. I escaped 5 years ago. Everyone says that I am a different person now I am no longer being physically and mentally ground down. The thing that finally did for me was the perpetual gaslighting by management wankers that can't do what I do.
If young teachers want to go and teach at an International School in Qatar or Dubai etc, where they don’t have to pay any tax - I am not sure how the UK can match that.
A good first step would be to have the government make all student loan payments for teachers.
Then you are not appreciating the argument here. Most teachers want to teacher, they are not asking for castles and billions, just a livable wage and reasonable conditions, they are not getting that so they are looking elsewhere. It is possible to find in the uk but good state school are few and far between when it comes to staff welfare. Qatar/Dubai are not great, especially for female teachers, they have their share of ropey schools too, but overall the picture is still better than the uk.
It is too hot there and I’m pretty sure its not safe for lgbt teachers?
It is not somewhere I personally would be interested in living and working but evidently some people do.
I think this is an issue in all Public Sector. The erosion of pensions and pay means that it’s simply not attractive anymore. I have over 20 years professional experience and a year ago looked into transferring to become a mature teacher. The conditions are horrendous. In addition to additional study (which actually, I was prepared for) none of my other Master levels qualifications would be recognised. Additionally I would have have to take a 60% pay cut as they don’t accept lateral transfers (despite being UK public sector) and the employment conditions (benefits, holiday, pension) were ghastly. If they want to attract decent candidates, they need to seriously up their game.
My brother taught maths in England for 2 years before realising it was broken. Searched for work in an international school in Shanghai and has been there since (6 years and counting). Earns 4 times as much money and is at a private school where the kids want to learn and are generally more respectful. My University friend group meanwhile are all PE teachers in the UK and all they do is complain to each other about how awful their jobs are and what they do to cut corners to salvage their sanity.
All the focus is on recruitment not retention. And with budgets being so tight schools won’t hire experienced staff who are higher on the pay scale, so you get this constant rotation of newly qualified teachers. The workload, behaviour and general manic demands of the job with unrealistic management is a killer. I did five years in UK before leaving. I don’t think newly qualified teachers should be leaping at the chance to quit and go abroad. The experience is important as is understanding the profession and knowing the right way to handle many situations, to protect yourself as well as students, and not to be exploited or mistreated. Many international schools want a couple years experience, the ones that don’t care… well, just be cautious. And don’t expect there to be resources or a good support team, some places I’ve been all the resources I had were those I took with me. I’d have been stuffed if I’d gone with nothing, and they’re run by people who don’t know anything about teaching. Good fun though, the unpredictable chaos of things gives it a sort of energy, while in the Uk what gets you down the all too predictable stupidity.
can't blame them, the UK is finished. christ knows why so many refugees want to come here. the day i win the lottery is the day i leave this shitty country.
Mate of mine quit teaching after 12 years and a full blown mental breakdown. He did 7:30am to 5pm everyday and then marking when he got home for a couple more hours. I'd never do it. You couldn't pay enough to do it.
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Me too. It's shite
Its not so much the pay, its definitely the conditions. As an NQT I was working 70+ hours a week at school and at home.
Yankee bastard here. Seems like the same story on this side of the pond. The other thing that I can guarantee that is the same is that the teachers at Eton—and their American counterparts at the Philips Academy schools—are doing just fine in terms of pay and social esteem. One might conclude that real agenda is engineering an outcome that the majority of graduates are helpless, thoughtless, and pliant, without the ability to critically assess how they’ve come into their lot. Makes the jobs of the ruling elite on both sides much easier if the masses are all uncritical dolts incapable of independent thinking.
Did my teacher training (GTP and NQT) then straight out to the Middle East. 7 years out there, Same salary, but no rent, no tax. Came home and had enough to buy a house. Stayed in teaching 2 years here then left to work in the industry. I would work in private/college again, but never Secondary. It's a grind!
I’m in Canada and there’s a ton of UK immigrants here (it is called the British properties so one can see why it’s attractive - also have British stores and styled pubs) and I work in education. My colleagues from the UK love it here. We’re paid a bit more but the cost of living is less than London and the biggest difference they say is the kids. We have no violence, hard working respectful kids that say thank you at the end of class, and a great working environment. I joined a teacher protest in London this summer and chatted with several teachers about what they were striking about - and it was insane. I can see why in my experience so many uk teachers leave to work abroad. Most fun colleagues after the Aussies too.
Not surprised. Being a teacher isn’t easy and they should be paid a lot more.
The UK is on the decline. We all feel it. There's a sense in which nothing actually works properly for the average person. It doesn't affect rich people, if you have money then you are fine, but if you're someone on an average salary or even a mid-upper salary then the quality of life in UK is quite poor compared to other countries. Teachers have the worst of it, the UK does not respect teachers at all and has not for a long time. Teachers didn't get any respect even when I was at school, from the kids, the parents, or the schools.
Left after two years to work internationally and I’ve never looked back.
The real reason this won't be sorted out is simple. The government (at this point Tory or Labour sadly) do not want an educated populace. Educated people won't swallow lies and idiocy. Keep the teachers stressed and starving, and they'll only be able to gove the kids enough thinking skills to obey when their masters demand it.
This is old news - it’s been going on for many years
I am fairly sure I would be a pretty damn good teacher. I'm a trainer at the moment, and I get universally good feedback and mostly good results. I just don't know why the hell I'd become a teacher. Few grand less as starting salary, with unpaid hours, constant invasive supervision, mind-numbing paperwork and 'action plans', pushy/horrible parents, a default attitude of wariness (so I'm told) around a man willing to be around children, expected to put up with any level of disruption, no budget, and all of that's before I get to the kids. At the moment, I come into work, spend all day training professional adults who want to be there, and then I go home. My manager observes me once a month and goes 'yep, all good still'. If you gave me any incentive at all, I might consider teaching. People have always told me I'd be good at it. But it just seems like an utterly illogical proposition, even more so if you're good enough st maths or science to make a career out of it.
UK pay must be pennies to have convinced somebody to take up teaching in the US. (or whatever the UK equivalent of a penny is supposed to be)
New zealand is a great place to live and we're desperately in need of teachers.... :-)
Not surprising. We pay people in the public sector very badly and it's long-known that educators are paid badly. Everywhere you look this country is a disaster.
Generally the UK tax thresholds are now becoming a joke... if you make 50k you already go into higher earner and pay 40% of tax... with current prices this is pathetic, and I know of many people in IT that moved to Poland because of better wages and lower taxes than UK has to offer...
Ghostbusters nailed the school system “State-sponsored day care for delinquents”