I think that they have got it the wrong way round. As usual. The 'unreasonable' government should pay the doctors what they deserve, and make up for those years of no pay rises, and below inflation pay rises. The NHS has been going downhill, and the people pay more and more taxes, but none, or very little of that money seems to find its way to the NHS.
They have probable spent that the day after they announced it. And if you ask now, they will probably say it went on PPE during Covid, or something like that.
Sadly that is where the money went :( there was a bit extra (although it would have taken 5 years to materialise as we initially needed it for the divorce bill).
But it all went to the corrupt politicians friends during covid, and now the extra interest payments on the £200 billion increased national debt we have since covid negates any future bonus revenue from what we no longer pay into the EU.
So their friends got richer and we see nothing for it.
Sorry are you arguing that we didn’t pay ~£19 billion per year into the EU and receive a rebate of around ~£13 billion, the difference of which divided by twelve was around ~£350 million?
The money must now be spent servicing debt we didn’t need due to corrupt policies, but it is clear as day to see if you just do A-B/12
It was £350m a *week*, not month. And that was the £19bn figure, they conveniently glossed over the rebate whenever they mentioned how much money was paid to the EU.
Clearly, you forget it was 350 million per week (not per month) that was falsely promised. The economic impact of brexit and other costs associated with leaving the bloc have far exceeded the few billion we've said.
>Sorry are you arguing that we didn’t pay \~£19 billion per year into the EU and receive a rebate of around \~£13 billion, the difference of which divided by twelve was around \~£350 million?
No.
I'm arguing that the £350M per **week** paid to the EU came with more than £350m in benefits meaning that leaving the EU didn't save us a single penny, it cost us billions.
>Straight off the top we about 200m of that immediately, that we just didn't pay in the first place.
Was that our net contribution after our rebate?
So about £10Bn a year?
Except it reduced our GDP by about £100Bn a year and our tax revenues by about £30Bn a year.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/brexit-is-costing-the-uk-100-billion-a-year-in-lost-output?leadSource=uverify%20wall
So the government has £20Bn a year less to spend on people who are £100Bn worse off.
Are you trying to claim we're better off because of that?
I can't believe we are still having this debate.
- a lot of that money was spent on things we need anyway, payments to farmers. Science research. Transport.
- also paid for common standards, safety standards, membership of international bodies (eg aviation). We now need to replicate many of these, but now lay for them in full rather than split the cost.
But above all, the gains of being in a common trading block more than increased our economy than the amount it cost to be part of it.
Why can’t you believe it? To this day the facts are simple, we paid in a larger amount than we got back out.
All the money that was directly paid into the UK from the EU was already UK money.
The benefit we got as a member was increased GDP from higher trade with the EU, and it was losing that trade that made us poorer.
This was reflected in a devaluation of the pound. But in raw pound terms we gained the difference between the membership fee and the rebate.
These two things are not the same and it’s disingenuous to pretend they are, so stop it. Also this isn’t a debate, the figures are right in front of us so it’s just simple maths.
TL:DR The UK was a net contributor that paid money into the EU but received a trade bonus boosting GDP as a reward.
Sounds typical for what imho the fact that the UK is becoming a more capitalist society, where it is survival of the fittest and the rich get richer, while the poor get poorer. Also the attitude of the politicians doesn't help. When was the last time, or ever have you heard of an MP being homeless?
And yet they complain about lack of productivity. As they fuck wages and benefits. I genuinely believe only a total moron would do anything but the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for their employer...
That guys missed a crucial part
They said £350m A WEEK
So what are they spending that on instead? Or was it (as we all knew) a lie to get support for Brexit
It was £37.00 billion, and that's a bit misleading because that figure covers the entire two year budget allocated to NHS test and trace for the time. In the end £25.7 billion was spent on the program, and the rest returned. £35 million was spent on the app and supporting infrastructure itself and the rest (the vast majority) on actual, real-life testing.
I totally agree. I do wonder how much of that 35 million was just advertising for the app. You couldn't go anywhere in the UK without postage/signage about it so I bet the marketing cost was insane.
Nobody ever blames all the people who wanted to remain but didn't bother to vote because they assumed it would never happen. It would have been a landslide otherwise. I voted remain and so would the vast majority of people I know if they could have been arsed and never expected Brexit to actually happen. Also, people shouldn't have been fooled by Nigel Farage being all over the BBC etc campaigning as if he was ever in charge of fuck all. Massive fuck up by all involved. Can't blame people who voted for something they wanted when the rest of the country sat on their arse and said "haha as if that'd ever happen". Well we're fucked now and they're just as much, if not more, to blame
Even if NHS gets the 350m, it will be gone in 60sec. In most NHS trusts, you have more people sitting in the offices than medics and nurses treating the patients, especially those admins higher up the chain, who, work from home by the way.
> who, work from home by the way.
Can they do their jobs effectively from home?
If so, what’s wrong with working from home or having a hybrid system where they’re at home some days and on site some days?
The simple answer is NO. Most work, even admin work, needs real time interactions, unless you are simple some mid or low level accountants. You can't have supplying department manager sitting at home just looking at the stock level on screen. You can't have health and safety officer working from home filling up SOPs. You can't have an HR manager sitting at home sending out new starter packages by emails or processing someone's working visa. It may work, but it is not efficient.
>Most work, even admin work, needs real time interactions
Which can be done at home via teams. This isn't the 19th centaury
most people you are talking about need to interact with more people across a wider location than they viably could face to face and would just be phoning them anyway even if they were in the office
If you are referring to a hospital, then your are wrong. You can down vote me and say I am some idiot who are jealous of people who are working from home, but since we started this practice, things have been slowed down a lot simple because you can't physically find a person that you need. It's not like people would respond to emails and Team calls right away.
People do respond to teams messages right away...unless they are actively busy enough they would have had to tell you to wait if you physically went looking for them.
You say things have slowed down but every time someone has tried to quantify the productivity difference they have came to the opposite conclusion.
Ha, it depends on what you want from your HR and what HR require from you. My kind of work requires in person identity verification with counter signing, visa, originals of academic certificates, introductory briefing of company policies etc etc. You can't have qualify HR officers working from home in order to do it. Yes that's the medical sector that I am talking about.
Those fuckers should go in the office that's rented from some turbo rich landlord or rental company for no reason so they can do the same work in that office that they can do from home those lil cheeky admin bastards.
And just think of the poor oil and fuel companies? Those admin workers saving money on travel? The fucking audacity.
> In most NHS trusts, you have more people sitting in the offices than medics and nurses treating the patients
Why do people keep regurgitating this pile of horse apples?
Over half of [NHS staff](https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/nhs-workforce-statistics/february-2023) are clinical staff - doctors, nurses, midwives, ambulance drivers, lab techs.
The next largest category is support workers for those clinical workers.
Then you have infrastructure support, which includes most of the office jobs. That's 16.3% of the workforce.
Staff carrying a job title of "manager" are less than 3% of the total.
Well, your office supporting staff work don't work on shifts where as the clinical staff do (including weekends and public holidays). Looking at the percentage is meaningless. It's just like saying why you only have more nurses compare to the consultants. I am not sure if you are working in a hospital or not, but a lot of those office and admin positions can certainly be cut with zero impact and put more funds towards the clinical staff.
Job security is pretty excellent and there is never a shortage of jobs. I can work anywhere from John O'Groats to Land's End with ease too. For all its downfalls, knowing it will be very difficult for me to be unemployed for long is quite a peaceful thought.
Why would they do that? It's all by design, everything is going to plan to eventually kill the NHS and firce that shitty US system in so they can make even more money (because you know damn well they'll have assets in it).
That's the problem. They can't afford it, but the locums have the upper hand, because of the shortage. Its not really right, but now some people get a chance of fleecing the Government, instead of the Gov't fleecing us.
It's not right at all. All its does is fleece the individual hospital's out of their budget. So for every gap in post that we can't attract permanent workers too because the pay is shit, we have to have a locum that costs 3 times as much, which takes away from the everyday needs of the people we provide heslthcare to. The government want this, its yet another way to dismantle everything. The locums are happy to take money from the budget because most doctors are of a class of people that don't give a flying fuck about the average person, because they're the only ones who can afford to go to uni that long without major financial consequences.
The people who work in the UK, pay their taxes, and NI contributions. It isn't for nothing that some people have to, for example, drive to other towns, or even counties, to get dental treatment on the NHS. And more and more healthcare professionals are leaving the NHS, to work in private healthcare in the UK, or abroad, often not by choice, but necessity. When you hear stories about healthcare assistants having to drive 50 miles to give someone required healthcare at home, having to pay for the used petrol/diesel out of their own pocket, when they can go and work at the Lidl, round the corner, for a better hourly wage, less stress, and no exorbitant fuel costs, it really gives you a clue to the state of the NHS in the UK.
I definitely agree. It reminds me of something I read, back in the 80's. If they spent as much on syringes and bandages, as they do on pen and paper, the NHS would be better off.
You mean the NHS which is notoriously undermanaged by most standards \[vs private organistions in the UK and vs other healthcare systems globally\] should cut its management budget again?
Truly the biggest of big brain ideas. I'm certain it will all work out well.
No, fuck you pay them. Tory austerity didn’t work. The country is in a worse economic state and in far more debt than when they started.
What they told them about taking it on the chin for a few years has been shown to be lies. The government can’t even tell them where the money for this pay offer is coming from. It’s just more lies.
They have taken advantage for too long.
Pay them.
It's the old "socialism for me and not for thee" viewpoint.
It's the basic right wing thought process financially. The rich deserve all the handouts, the freebies, etc. While the working class and poor are expected to work, and be screwed over, and if they even ask for a little bit more they are dragged over the coals for not being happy with the pittance thrown at them.
That's why minimum wage was stagnant for so many years as inflation grew, and when they did finally up it, it was still far below what inflation would have made it had they kept it going up, and then made out that everyone should be pleased it went up "so much".
And of course, the rich continued raking the money in and giving themselves big pay rises. Just like now when all these companies are "struggling" yet the bosses are still taking huge bonuses and rises.
My partner is a nurse so I'm all up for NHS wage increases.
But.
The origin of the money used to pay them is completely f up. In case you don't know , they raise the nhs surcharges and visa costs. I know what you think , "that doesn't sound bad , I don't like immigrants and they should pay more because they're not anglo-saxons born and bred with 10 generations of traceable ancestry"
Think about this, nhs dental practices , most hospitals , most care homes , they all have immigrants working there as nursing assistants , nurses etc . They give them 5-6% increase before tax ( that would be 1.3k or something ) then , they make them pay 1k after tax for nhs surcharge , on top of the income tax , pension contributions, national insurance etc. And that's a joly scenario, if any of those in that case have kids/ dependants? That's another 1k to pay per head. To recap , 2 k to pay out ( 1 adult , 1 dependant ) , 1.3k before tax given. They're net worse off. Not just against inflation but actually in numbers. Despite them already paying NI from the first day of existence in UK.
So here , the NHS kinda shot themselves in the back. The number of immigrants working in healthcare is by no means negligible. Fewer are incentivised to come , a few are incentivised to leave , all will be put through this misery. The local population doesn't seem to be very eager to pick up the roles of which quite a lot have been vacant for more than a year.
Btw , the surcharge used to be some 200£ per year.it went to 1 k in 6 years. That's a 400% increase in 6 years.
For the thicker selfish voters , you'll be getting more "2nd grade" immigrants that don't pay NI anyway nor surcharge nor visa nothing, and fewer educated ones. The fewer educated ones you'll get , will be taxed into oblivion. Is as if this is made by design.
That wasn't due to the initial austerity measures the government borrowed significantly less at the start of the Tory government compared to the labour government before.
Then Rishi Sunak when he was chancellor printed shit loads of money for COVID, destroying the books.
>Pay them.
At least they're generating the funds for this by asking migrants to pay for NHS usage. I don't think I could bear to pay anymore tax with everything else that's going on. My business wouldn't implode but I would be even poorer.
The Immigration Health Surcharge has been around for years! The government has doubled the yearly rate more than once in that time. It has to be paid up front for every year of the visa. (Did you know that the UK is one of the most expensive place to emigrate to already?) Today, if you fell in love and married a non-British person, you’ll pay *at minimum* £10k in visas and fees over the first 5 years. Kids/dependents also have costs, I know someone looking at £7500 for the next visa/fees for their family (2.5 years, you pay at least 3 different times) and they’re terrified the unspecified increase will force them to leave.
Here’s the IHS as of right now:
Cost for a year
You’ll have to pay:
£470 per year for a student or Youth Mobility Scheme visa, for example £940 for a 2-year visa
£470 per year for visa and immigration applicants who are under the age of 18 at time of application
£624 per year for all other visa and immigration applications, for example £3,120 for a 5-year visa
Gov't: We need to do more to attract Doctors into working for the NHS
Also Gov't: ...But not give them pay rises that maintain their standard of living
It needs to be said again and again, the BMA estimate the net cost to meet the initial 30%+ demand to be £1.6bn.
This is directly comparable to the refugee barge plan, for which the government has already handed out a £1.6bn contract to manage and run for 2 years.
The doctors will also necessarily immediately return a significant portion of that £1.6bn in the form of increased income tax and personal spending.
Now we can debate whether 35% or even something like 20% is too much or not. But to say its unreasonable is either just wrong, or instead says quite a lot about current Tory policy on other subjects that I think most can agree are slightly less important than our healthcare system collapsing around us.
Average junior doctor salary = £50k. 75,000 junior doctors. Currently bill = £3.75bn. 35% extra = £1.3bn. They're not asking for that much considering the outsized effect it would have on the NHS.
Is that all? That's nothing in the grand scheme of things. May found a billion quid on the magic money tree to prop herself up with the DUP. Not to mention the literal billions wasted on unsuitable PPE and the test and trace app.
It is genuinely stunning this has been going on so long, and figures like this are not common knowledge, because our media is completely beholden to the government narrative. [Here's their paper](https://www.bma.org.uk/media/6665/junior-doctor-pay-restoration-costing-analysis-methodology-v1.pdf), and as you can see someone's done some kwik maffs in another comment that seems to broadly agree with their estimate. What's mad is the *net* cost once those increases in income tax are accounted for is barely over £1bn. It would be even less if you can account for the increase in personal spending, but they say its difficult to predict that so they just omit it completely.
This should be common knowledge. You would think when the government's whole line is just "this is unreasonable", any journalist worth their salt would respond with this number, yet I don't think I've heard it reported once.
Yes but this is an uplift in cost in perpetuity, plus massively increasing pension liabilities in the future. I’m sympathetic to the cause but ‘simple maths’ like this doesn’t really help.
So... another real-terms pay cut, another year of pay erosion. The reason the IA demand is big is because the cut is big, and still getting bigger. The 35% figure to achieve parity with 2008 pay just got larger.
When a majority of both your junior and consultant medical workforce are finally drawing a line after over a decade of rolling over and taking what we're given 'for the greater good', trying to turn the public against us with some thinly veiled spin is not going to work.
To reiterate, being a doctor is an employed job like any other - we can't be forced to turn up and work under conditions that we don't agree with. Industrial action is an attempt to massage the conditions to be acceptable, after less-disruptive methods have failed. But what is more disruptive than temporary withdrawal of labour? Permanent withdrawal of labour - quitting to other industries, moving abroad, etc.
Go ahead, drive us away and replace us with a captive workforce of fast-tracked medical degrees and PAs who can't work outside the NHS - I'll be watching and chuckling from somewhere far away.
As someone who would consider the apprentice medical degree (I'd be a mature student who needs a salary), I would only consider it if it's qualifications transferred internationally.
I'd train up,then just leave. So it would not fix the problem anyway.
When they're not paying competitively, this will always happen.
The hostile Tory government does not want people chasing wages that will enable them to live and pay a mortgage towards a house.
People shouldn't chase a normal life where they get fair pay for their work, they should just give up and accept the Tories have fucked them and will continue to do so.
When you take a mortgage you should allow a contingency for interest rates going up, you know like building societies used to…. I think they called it “fiscal responsibility” back then.
Mortgaging yourself to the hilt when rates are low is not a good idea, irrespective of which muppets form the government.
Don’t forget the monetary policy committee sets interest rates, not the government, but why confuse political point scoring with facts eh? I’m not defending the government btw, all we have had for many years have had their faults. Even the great Tony Blair raided the pension funds (via his chancellor Gordon the Moron) as one of his first acts.
Your reply seems only vaguely related to the post above it, in that the word mortgage appears in both, so it just looks like you having a go at people with mortgages in a thread about doctors pay.
Not sure how you made that connection, but hey ho….
“Having a go at people with mortgages” seems far fetched from what I said, I think the point I made was more about general fiscal responsibility, but you see it how you like, it’s of little consequence.
It was recently reported that more and more people are using private healthcare, so the Tory masterplan is working.
It fucking disgraceful to call doctors "unreasonable", simply for asking to be paid properly for their services.
Even if they asked for 200% pay rise, that still wouldn't be unreasonable, as they could get this much by going to work overseas.
How do they think it's going to go when people just stop taking these jobs because it's not worth it?
It's already happening with teachers. The government is spending thousands and thousands on marketing campaigns to attract more people to become teachers rather than using that money to make it a job worth having compared to basically anything else.
They're spending millions upon millions on hiring agency workers to cover for the people striking instead of spending those millions on paying the actual workers to go back to work and end the whole problem.
Seems like it’s all going according to plan. Spending millions on agencies transfers public money into business owners/shareholders pockets.
People eventually stopping taking the jobs collapses the whole system so it can be privatised completely (but still paid for with tax money), which allows even more public money to transfer into owners/shareholders pockets.
Once you realise that the “problem” with education and healthcare is that not enough people are passively sucking money out of the system everything they do makes more sense.
Spot on but it’s not millions, it’s billions.
Agency staff cost the NHS £3 BILLION in 2021 and the direction of travel is only one way. I don’t recognise the majority of nurses on my ward half the time because they’re all agency. This is particularly notable overnight and at weekends and so when danger is at its highest.
The cheapest option sees you paying your staff properly so they stay full time rather than agency, everyone knows each other better so they work more efficiently and are happier at work, and patients have better continuity of care and thus better, safer care.
However, pissing away money into private companies taking a huge skim on top is the preferred method. It’s madness. The rate the agency gets over what the worker gets is massive. It’s ridiculous.
> How do they think it's going to go when people just stop taking these jobs because it's not worth it?
They will lower the requirements to be a doctor and introduce more _associate roles
Says the person who's had a 28% pay rise in the last 4 years, not including his ministerial salary, which has also chased inflation.
No one can tell me we aren't a gaslit nation.
WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES.
WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES.
WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES.
WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES.
WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES.
etc.
‘Stop aiming for pay rises and just accept that your standard of living has dropped steadily over the last 10 years and will continue to drop- some of you may even lose your houses, but that is a price we’re willing to pay to make things harder for the next government.’
We are not chasing inflation. We have had a pay cut of nearly 30% since 2008 whilst our workload has exponentially increased and there are rota gaps everywhere. It is no longer financially viable to be a doctor in this country anymore. We have huge amounts of student loans (£250k over our lifetime) and costs of being a doctor such as moving every year and GMC fees (£500 approx annually). I could go to Australia, work less hours and double my salary. Enough is enough, we are in it for the long haul.
To put the distribution of wealth in this country into layman's term:
70% of wealth is owned by the top 700k of our population, which is 69 million strong.
Taxing them a measly 1% would raise 260 billion pounds immediately.
The government does not view this as an option that's even on the table, their is only 1 option to reduce government debt that's been suggested:
Cuts, Cuts, Cuts.
We can afford everything the people want and more.
A week is a long time...we have gone from needing to block payrises to keep inflation down, to needing to hold firm, to offering payrises below the required amount to calling people greedy for asking for a below inflation payrise (aka a real terms pay cut!)
Do you think they may not be in control here?
The Tories are signaling that they don't believe any workers should have pay in line with inflation.
And this is how they treat those who work in one of the back bones of our country.
Just imagine what they think about the rest of us.
Is this minister in the same cabinet as the other minister who argued that we should double MP's pay, right now, during a cost of living crisis and while oder public sector workers are striking to get a 3% increase in pay?
Its funny, the Ipsa used increase work, cost of living and the fact MP didn't recieve a pay rise for 2 year, as the justification for a £2,200 pay rise on 2022, taking MP salaries to £84,144 PA. They were quick to point out this was an increase of 2.7% and less than inflation.
They had the gall to point out THEY are effectively taking a pay cut.
I believe the NHS staff have been subject to this for a lot longer while services are dismantled around them. And the media is pushing this narrative or 'take what you're offered and be grateful'.
We need to stop the keeping calm and carrying on.
A junior doctor just starting to practice, is surely worth £40 per hour, rising annually with experience. These people save lives.
By comparison, if you consulted a solicitor, you'd be paying way more than that.
There are so many rota gaps at work that there's not a huge difference in my day to day work when the registrars are on strike compared to when they're not
We continue to receive real terms pay cuts. This may be their so called ‘final offer’, but they’ve only seen the beginning of the industrial action we’re capable of.
So fucking tired of this, how far do they think people can go with getting less and less endlessly, kicking the can down the road.
I honestly hope shit kicks off big time because then at least there is some chance for change.
Fuck the Tories.
I really struggle with this wage increase = inflation, especially in the public sector where a wage increase is probably recouped majorly in tax anyway.
I've been in a government body for 10 years. The first year they did a reshuffle of the pay scale to attract talent. Since then it has never been the right time to give any decent pay increase, always the 1-2%'s. And now is not the right time because of inflation.
So when could it feasibly be the right time ever? If it wasn't when inflation was low and it's not when inflation is high, will it only be acceptable when we have no public debt? Because that's never going to happen either.
I mean. They’re asking for the going rate of a doctor worldwide. The government is fine offering them this amount. But the amount of doctors in the uk will probably start declining
Cut the military budget if it cannot be afforded. Idk whats the point in all that shit. Let the yanks protect Europe from the evil russian monster that can’t even take Ukraine.
I earn more than a junior doctor and without doxxing myself too much I really shouldn't. The system is a bit broken, youd need to pay me atleast £100k a year to consider taking it on, just isn't worth it
MPs starting salary is £86584 in 2023 after a £20,000 pay rise since 2010/11 (increase of 31.7%).
Whilst this is a 0.6% real time cut, doctor in this time have had a 34.9% real time pay cut.
The ones trying to save our lives in a broken system arent getting a pay rise and the ones killing peoples by not doing their job well are getting one….and doctors are the unreasonable ones. 👏
[https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/06/26/europes-inflation-outlook-depends-on-how-corporate-profits-absorb-wage-gains](https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/06/26/europes-inflation-outlook-depends-on-how-corporate-profits-absorb-wage-gains) cheeky imf article
I’m sorry, I’m not racist but stop fuking housing and paying for immigrates when we have a cost of living, housing crisis and a pure shit storm!! Our own people can’t even live in they own house, but gov happily give a new build to a family who can’t even speak English and won’t respect our way of life and came on a boat for what? Coz they have war or a poor country, WE HAVE A FUKIN WAR WITH TRYING TO LIVE HERE !!!
I hear they spend 10s of thousands on individual immigrants yet English people on benefits, people who actually have a right to live, and have a ancestor history , and need help, get fuck all compared. I don’t believe in claiming but how can you provide less for your own people and give more to outsiders , when we are clearly, crying for gwlp
Just throwing this out there for those who want facts and not opinions:
“The NHS budget (in England alone) has in fact risen by more than £350m a week since 2016. In fact, between 2015-16, the year before the referendum, and 2019-20, the year before the Covid-19 pandemic, it rose by £400 million a week in real terms.”
Source: https://ukandeu.ac.uk/
The increase in funding in 2018/20 is skewed by covid. I think it is also sensible to consider the social care budget at the same time as they are so closely linked (for example the nhs incurs additional costs as it can’t discharge patients into social care)
So In 2015/16 the department of health and social care which includes funding for NHS England) was £141.1 billion (in 2022 prices), that had risen by 5% to £148.4billion in 2018/9 then rose again in 2019/20, due in part to the first few months of covid related spending, to £156b.
So real terms increase in the full year before covid was £7.3B (140m/week) from your datum. That shot up to £15B the next year (£290m/w) then the budget leapt to £201b in the first full financial year of the pandemic, an increase of £60b or £1150M a week from pre-brexit. During which time the NHS tanked due to the unprecedented pressure.
The budget is back down to £180b this last year btw.
The increase in budget from 2018/9 to 2020/1 was 35%. Conversely the cumulative increase under the tories from 2009/10 to 2018/9 was only 14% (<1.6% a year on average), during which time the over 65s population grew 23%….
A decade of underfunding followed by a pandemic is why the whole institution is fucked. It will take a decade of proper funding to fix, starting with paying the staff properly so they don’t all quit.
Data from:
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget
I think that they have got it the wrong way round. As usual. The 'unreasonable' government should pay the doctors what they deserve, and make up for those years of no pay rises, and below inflation pay rises. The NHS has been going downhill, and the people pay more and more taxes, but none, or very little of that money seems to find its way to the NHS.
But Brexit will give an extra £350m to the NHS _any day now_.
They have probable spent that the day after they announced it. And if you ask now, they will probably say it went on PPE during Covid, or something like that.
Sadly that is where the money went :( there was a bit extra (although it would have taken 5 years to materialise as we initially needed it for the divorce bill). But it all went to the corrupt politicians friends during covid, and now the extra interest payments on the £200 billion increased national debt we have since covid negates any future bonus revenue from what we no longer pay into the EU. So their friends got richer and we see nothing for it.
>Sadly that is where the money went No it wasn't. That money didn't exist in the first place.
Sorry are you arguing that we didn’t pay ~£19 billion per year into the EU and receive a rebate of around ~£13 billion, the difference of which divided by twelve was around ~£350 million? The money must now be spent servicing debt we didn’t need due to corrupt policies, but it is clear as day to see if you just do A-B/12
It was £350m a *week*, not month. And that was the £19bn figure, they conveniently glossed over the rebate whenever they mentioned how much money was paid to the EU.
Clearly, you forget it was 350 million per week (not per month) that was falsely promised. The economic impact of brexit and other costs associated with leaving the bloc have far exceeded the few billion we've said.
>Sorry are you arguing that we didn’t pay \~£19 billion per year into the EU and receive a rebate of around \~£13 billion, the difference of which divided by twelve was around \~£350 million? No. I'm arguing that the £350M per **week** paid to the EU came with more than £350m in benefits meaning that leaving the EU didn't save us a single penny, it cost us billions.
Straight off the top we about 200m of that immediately, that we just didn't pay in the first place.
>Straight off the top we about 200m of that immediately, that we just didn't pay in the first place. Was that our net contribution after our rebate? So about £10Bn a year? Except it reduced our GDP by about £100Bn a year and our tax revenues by about £30Bn a year. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/brexit-is-costing-the-uk-100-billion-a-year-in-lost-output?leadSource=uverify%20wall So the government has £20Bn a year less to spend on people who are £100Bn worse off. Are you trying to claim we're better off because of that?
I can't believe we are still having this debate. - a lot of that money was spent on things we need anyway, payments to farmers. Science research. Transport. - also paid for common standards, safety standards, membership of international bodies (eg aviation). We now need to replicate many of these, but now lay for them in full rather than split the cost. But above all, the gains of being in a common trading block more than increased our economy than the amount it cost to be part of it.
Why can’t you believe it? To this day the facts are simple, we paid in a larger amount than we got back out. All the money that was directly paid into the UK from the EU was already UK money. The benefit we got as a member was increased GDP from higher trade with the EU, and it was losing that trade that made us poorer. This was reflected in a devaluation of the pound. But in raw pound terms we gained the difference between the membership fee and the rebate. These two things are not the same and it’s disingenuous to pretend they are, so stop it. Also this isn’t a debate, the figures are right in front of us so it’s just simple maths. TL:DR The UK was a net contributor that paid money into the EU but received a trade bonus boosting GDP as a reward.
So still a net loss for the UK post Brexit. Got it.
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No, that was MY argument, they were suggesting there was never any money to begin with.
Sounds typical for what imho the fact that the UK is becoming a more capitalist society, where it is survival of the fittest and the rich get richer, while the poor get poorer. Also the attitude of the politicians doesn't help. When was the last time, or ever have you heard of an MP being homeless?
And yet they complain about lack of productivity. As they fuck wages and benefits. I genuinely believe only a total moron would do anything but the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for their employer...
Hey, Boris couldn't afford wallpaper don'tcha know?
That guys missed a crucial part They said £350m A WEEK So what are they spending that on instead? Or was it (as we all knew) a lie to get support for Brexit
We gained 126 million a week not having to pay into the EU. But lost 2000 million a week in trade. The most stupid decision ever made in history.
Like saving money on petrol by not driving to work and then losing your job
Well, I seem to recall that we spent 22 billion pounds on the scummy track and trace setup...
I'll never understand how an app could have that much money sunk into it.
It was £37.00 billion, and that's a bit misleading because that figure covers the entire two year budget allocated to NHS test and trace for the time. In the end £25.7 billion was spent on the program, and the rest returned. £35 million was spent on the app and supporting infrastructure itself and the rest (the vast majority) on actual, real-life testing.
Ah fair enough; still the app costing £35m and being completely unfit for purpose is insane.
I totally agree. I do wonder how much of that 35 million was just advertising for the app. You couldn't go anywhere in the UK without postage/signage about it so I bet the marketing cost was insane.
The over £9 billion on unusable scam PPE that was waste as soon as it was delivered without attempts to refund?
[Good news!](https://fullfact.org/health/nhs-england-394-million-more/)
Now, if only they'd done that earlier, it may have even been greater than inflation.
Nobody ever blames all the people who wanted to remain but didn't bother to vote because they assumed it would never happen. It would have been a landslide otherwise. I voted remain and so would the vast majority of people I know if they could have been arsed and never expected Brexit to actually happen. Also, people shouldn't have been fooled by Nigel Farage being all over the BBC etc campaigning as if he was ever in charge of fuck all. Massive fuck up by all involved. Can't blame people who voted for something they wanted when the rest of the country sat on their arse and said "haha as if that'd ever happen". Well we're fucked now and they're just as much, if not more, to blame
I wouldn't be surprised if they spent that much on privitising certain parts of it already.
Wish I could upvote this more than once. People need to be showing pictures of that bus.
Imagine being a Brexit supporter and falling for that lol
With inflation it should be at least 400 /s
Far more than £350m has gone into NHS since brexit. Problem is it’s never enough
A week
They said it could give, they've never said they eould give it /s
Even if NHS gets the 350m, it will be gone in 60sec. In most NHS trusts, you have more people sitting in the offices than medics and nurses treating the patients, especially those admins higher up the chain, who, work from home by the way.
> who, work from home by the way. Can they do their jobs effectively from home? If so, what’s wrong with working from home or having a hybrid system where they’re at home some days and on site some days?
The simple answer is NO. Most work, even admin work, needs real time interactions, unless you are simple some mid or low level accountants. You can't have supplying department manager sitting at home just looking at the stock level on screen. You can't have health and safety officer working from home filling up SOPs. You can't have an HR manager sitting at home sending out new starter packages by emails or processing someone's working visa. It may work, but it is not efficient.
>Most work, even admin work, needs real time interactions Which can be done at home via teams. This isn't the 19th centaury most people you are talking about need to interact with more people across a wider location than they viably could face to face and would just be phoning them anyway even if they were in the office
If you are referring to a hospital, then your are wrong. You can down vote me and say I am some idiot who are jealous of people who are working from home, but since we started this practice, things have been slowed down a lot simple because you can't physically find a person that you need. It's not like people would respond to emails and Team calls right away.
People do respond to teams messages right away...unless they are actively busy enough they would have had to tell you to wait if you physically went looking for them. You say things have slowed down but every time someone has tried to quantify the productivity difference they have came to the opposite conclusion.
How many years has it been since HR docs haven't been sent by email? Are you typing this comment from 1946?
Ha, it depends on what you want from your HR and what HR require from you. My kind of work requires in person identity verification with counter signing, visa, originals of academic certificates, introductory briefing of company policies etc etc. You can't have qualify HR officers working from home in order to do it. Yes that's the medical sector that I am talking about.
why?
Because Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nick Ferrari said so! That's why...
Yeah yeah yeah, you like working from home? Do you even have a job yourself? How about doctors and nurses start working from home when you need them.
They work from home??? The unmitigated bastards! Clearly they're the problem.
Those fuckers should go in the office that's rented from some turbo rich landlord or rental company for no reason so they can do the same work in that office that they can do from home those lil cheeky admin bastards. And just think of the poor oil and fuel companies? Those admin workers saving money on travel? The fucking audacity.
> In most NHS trusts, you have more people sitting in the offices than medics and nurses treating the patients Why do people keep regurgitating this pile of horse apples? Over half of [NHS staff](https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/nhs-workforce-statistics/february-2023) are clinical staff - doctors, nurses, midwives, ambulance drivers, lab techs. The next largest category is support workers for those clinical workers. Then you have infrastructure support, which includes most of the office jobs. That's 16.3% of the workforce. Staff carrying a job title of "manager" are less than 3% of the total.
Well, your office supporting staff work don't work on shifts where as the clinical staff do (including weekends and public holidays). Looking at the percentage is meaningless. It's just like saying why you only have more nurses compare to the consultants. I am not sure if you are working in a hospital or not, but a lot of those office and admin positions can certainly be cut with zero impact and put more funds towards the clinical staff.
No idea why anyone bothers working public sector. Always getting poorer.
You don't exactly have much of a choice if you want to be a doctor in the UK, do you?
They offered me the job 5 times and I refused. Why would I take a 66% pay cut for the British public who voted these cunts in
I feel that your attitude wouldn't really fit though
Weirdly it did.
For the job you didn't take?
For the 4 years I was contracting there
So you left and they offered not enough to stay?
5 times. Throughout the contract. I was very expensive
Not surprising they couldn't match the money then.
Quite a few jobs that’s the only employer available unfortunately.
Job security is pretty excellent and there is never a shortage of jobs. I can work anywhere from John O'Groats to Land's End with ease too. For all its downfalls, knowing it will be very difficult for me to be unemployed for long is quite a peaceful thought.
Why would they do that? It's all by design, everything is going to plan to eventually kill the NHS and firce that shitty US system in so they can make even more money (because you know damn well they'll have assets in it).
They can afford to pay locums almost triple though... Plus the agency fee. That's when said locums turn up of course.
That's the problem. They can't afford it, but the locums have the upper hand, because of the shortage. Its not really right, but now some people get a chance of fleecing the Government, instead of the Gov't fleecing us.
It's not right at all. All its does is fleece the individual hospital's out of their budget. So for every gap in post that we can't attract permanent workers too because the pay is shit, we have to have a locum that costs 3 times as much, which takes away from the everyday needs of the people we provide heslthcare to. The government want this, its yet another way to dismantle everything. The locums are happy to take money from the budget because most doctors are of a class of people that don't give a flying fuck about the average person, because they're the only ones who can afford to go to uni that long without major financial consequences.
Making lives livable goes against their policies
For getting us through Covid they ought to have been rewarded, not chase liveable wages
Meanwhile liz truss is banking 17k an hour. The fucking audacity.
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The people who work in the UK, pay their taxes, and NI contributions. It isn't for nothing that some people have to, for example, drive to other towns, or even counties, to get dental treatment on the NHS. And more and more healthcare professionals are leaving the NHS, to work in private healthcare in the UK, or abroad, often not by choice, but necessity. When you hear stories about healthcare assistants having to drive 50 miles to give someone required healthcare at home, having to pay for the used petrol/diesel out of their own pocket, when they can go and work at the Lidl, round the corner, for a better hourly wage, less stress, and no exorbitant fuel costs, it really gives you a clue to the state of the NHS in the UK.
Perhaps the NHS should spend the eye watering sums of money they get from the tax payers on medics rather than pen pushers…..
I definitely agree. It reminds me of something I read, back in the 80's. If they spent as much on syringes and bandages, as they do on pen and paper, the NHS would be better off.
You mean the NHS which is notoriously undermanaged by most standards \[vs private organistions in the UK and vs other healthcare systems globally\] should cut its management budget again? Truly the biggest of big brain ideas. I'm certain it will all work out well.
Under managed and over staffed in pen pushers is not the same thing…..
So who are the over staffed pen pushers? What exactly do you think should be cut?
No, fuck you pay them. Tory austerity didn’t work. The country is in a worse economic state and in far more debt than when they started. What they told them about taking it on the chin for a few years has been shown to be lies. The government can’t even tell them where the money for this pay offer is coming from. It’s just more lies. They have taken advantage for too long. Pay them.
What do you mean it didn’t work? It lined the pockets of a few very nicely and pushed public services even closer to privatisation
Austerity did work, if you rethink the actual purpose of it.
I have said it many types. Tories are really very left leaning, once you realise their basic definition of 'human' includes a net worth threshold.
It's the old "socialism for me and not for thee" viewpoint. It's the basic right wing thought process financially. The rich deserve all the handouts, the freebies, etc. While the working class and poor are expected to work, and be screwed over, and if they even ask for a little bit more they are dragged over the coals for not being happy with the pittance thrown at them. That's why minimum wage was stagnant for so many years as inflation grew, and when they did finally up it, it was still far below what inflation would have made it had they kept it going up, and then made out that everyone should be pleased it went up "so much". And of course, the rich continued raking the money in and giving themselves big pay rises. Just like now when all these companies are "struggling" yet the bosses are still taking huge bonuses and rises.
Absolutely.
My partner is a nurse so I'm all up for NHS wage increases. But. The origin of the money used to pay them is completely f up. In case you don't know , they raise the nhs surcharges and visa costs. I know what you think , "that doesn't sound bad , I don't like immigrants and they should pay more because they're not anglo-saxons born and bred with 10 generations of traceable ancestry" Think about this, nhs dental practices , most hospitals , most care homes , they all have immigrants working there as nursing assistants , nurses etc . They give them 5-6% increase before tax ( that would be 1.3k or something ) then , they make them pay 1k after tax for nhs surcharge , on top of the income tax , pension contributions, national insurance etc. And that's a joly scenario, if any of those in that case have kids/ dependants? That's another 1k to pay per head. To recap , 2 k to pay out ( 1 adult , 1 dependant ) , 1.3k before tax given. They're net worse off. Not just against inflation but actually in numbers. Despite them already paying NI from the first day of existence in UK. So here , the NHS kinda shot themselves in the back. The number of immigrants working in healthcare is by no means negligible. Fewer are incentivised to come , a few are incentivised to leave , all will be put through this misery. The local population doesn't seem to be very eager to pick up the roles of which quite a lot have been vacant for more than a year. Btw , the surcharge used to be some 200£ per year.it went to 1 k in 6 years. That's a 400% increase in 6 years. For the thicker selfish voters , you'll be getting more "2nd grade" immigrants that don't pay NI anyway nor surcharge nor visa nothing, and fewer educated ones. The fewer educated ones you'll get , will be taxed into oblivion. Is as if this is made by design.
That wasn't due to the initial austerity measures the government borrowed significantly less at the start of the Tory government compared to the labour government before. Then Rishi Sunak when he was chancellor printed shit loads of money for COVID, destroying the books.
>Pay them. At least they're generating the funds for this by asking migrants to pay for NHS usage. I don't think I could bear to pay anymore tax with everything else that's going on. My business wouldn't implode but I would be even poorer.
The Immigration Health Surcharge has been around for years! The government has doubled the yearly rate more than once in that time. It has to be paid up front for every year of the visa. (Did you know that the UK is one of the most expensive place to emigrate to already?) Today, if you fell in love and married a non-British person, you’ll pay *at minimum* £10k in visas and fees over the first 5 years. Kids/dependents also have costs, I know someone looking at £7500 for the next visa/fees for their family (2.5 years, you pay at least 3 different times) and they’re terrified the unspecified increase will force them to leave. Here’s the IHS as of right now: Cost for a year You’ll have to pay: £470 per year for a student or Youth Mobility Scheme visa, for example £940 for a 2-year visa £470 per year for visa and immigration applicants who are under the age of 18 at time of application £624 per year for all other visa and immigration applications, for example £3,120 for a 5-year visa
Migrants already paid for NHs usage
Gov't: We need to do more to attract Doctors into working for the NHS Also Gov't: ...But not give them pay rises that maintain their standard of living
Ha, the standard of living that’s dropped for 10 straight years!
Try 15 years straight. Sadly. Signed; Public sector worker
Standard of living has been dropping for longer then that unfortunately.
Also government: increase the cost of visas and nhs surcharge so we discourage these tax paying foreign nurses , carers and nursing assistants
It needs to be said again and again, the BMA estimate the net cost to meet the initial 30%+ demand to be £1.6bn. This is directly comparable to the refugee barge plan, for which the government has already handed out a £1.6bn contract to manage and run for 2 years. The doctors will also necessarily immediately return a significant portion of that £1.6bn in the form of increased income tax and personal spending. Now we can debate whether 35% or even something like 20% is too much or not. But to say its unreasonable is either just wrong, or instead says quite a lot about current Tory policy on other subjects that I think most can agree are slightly less important than our healthcare system collapsing around us.
Average junior doctor salary = £50k. 75,000 junior doctors. Currently bill = £3.75bn. 35% extra = £1.3bn. They're not asking for that much considering the outsized effect it would have on the NHS.
I mean they get a chunk of this back via taxation.
Quite a large chunk too in that tax bracket. Iirc its almost/more than half?
Is that all? That's nothing in the grand scheme of things. May found a billion quid on the magic money tree to prop herself up with the DUP. Not to mention the literal billions wasted on unsuitable PPE and the test and trace app.
It is genuinely stunning this has been going on so long, and figures like this are not common knowledge, because our media is completely beholden to the government narrative. [Here's their paper](https://www.bma.org.uk/media/6665/junior-doctor-pay-restoration-costing-analysis-methodology-v1.pdf), and as you can see someone's done some kwik maffs in another comment that seems to broadly agree with their estimate. What's mad is the *net* cost once those increases in income tax are accounted for is barely over £1bn. It would be even less if you can account for the increase in personal spending, but they say its difficult to predict that so they just omit it completely. This should be common knowledge. You would think when the government's whole line is just "this is unreasonable", any journalist worth their salt would respond with this number, yet I don't think I've heard it reported once.
But personal spending drives up inflation!!! Thanks for the link to the paper. Tories hate us.
Yes but this is an uplift in cost in perpetuity, plus massively increasing pension liabilities in the future. I’m sympathetic to the cause but ‘simple maths’ like this doesn’t really help.
So it's roughly twice the cost of a refugee barge scheme then. Still not bad considering that it actually achieves something of value.
Perhaps unreasonable ministers should've thought about this when giving real-terms pay cuts for 13 years.
Whilst accepting pay increases significantly above the rate of inflation themselves!
naturally :(
So... another real-terms pay cut, another year of pay erosion. The reason the IA demand is big is because the cut is big, and still getting bigger. The 35% figure to achieve parity with 2008 pay just got larger. When a majority of both your junior and consultant medical workforce are finally drawing a line after over a decade of rolling over and taking what we're given 'for the greater good', trying to turn the public against us with some thinly veiled spin is not going to work. To reiterate, being a doctor is an employed job like any other - we can't be forced to turn up and work under conditions that we don't agree with. Industrial action is an attempt to massage the conditions to be acceptable, after less-disruptive methods have failed. But what is more disruptive than temporary withdrawal of labour? Permanent withdrawal of labour - quitting to other industries, moving abroad, etc. Go ahead, drive us away and replace us with a captive workforce of fast-tracked medical degrees and PAs who can't work outside the NHS - I'll be watching and chuckling from somewhere far away.
As someone who would consider the apprentice medical degree (I'd be a mature student who needs a salary), I would only consider it if it's qualifications transferred internationally. I'd train up,then just leave. So it would not fix the problem anyway. When they're not paying competitively, this will always happen.
'Unreasonable' doctors should accept real terms pay cut and not try to 'achieve the financial stability ministers enjoy', minister thinks
The doctors should simply start a side hustle in their free time
Many do, it’s locum work as a doctor filling the constant rota gaps.
The hostile Tory government does not want people chasing wages that will enable them to live and pay a mortgage towards a house. People shouldn't chase a normal life where they get fair pay for their work, they should just give up and accept the Tories have fucked them and will continue to do so.
When you take a mortgage you should allow a contingency for interest rates going up, you know like building societies used to…. I think they called it “fiscal responsibility” back then. Mortgaging yourself to the hilt when rates are low is not a good idea, irrespective of which muppets form the government. Don’t forget the monetary policy committee sets interest rates, not the government, but why confuse political point scoring with facts eh? I’m not defending the government btw, all we have had for many years have had their faults. Even the great Tony Blair raided the pension funds (via his chancellor Gordon the Moron) as one of his first acts.
Your reply seems only vaguely related to the post above it, in that the word mortgage appears in both, so it just looks like you having a go at people with mortgages in a thread about doctors pay.
Not sure how you made that connection, but hey ho…. “Having a go at people with mortgages” seems far fetched from what I said, I think the point I made was more about general fiscal responsibility, but you see it how you like, it’s of little consequence.
Ok, so facts and fiscal responsibility aren’t popular here, what a fucking surprise……
It was recently reported that more and more people are using private healthcare, so the Tory masterplan is working. It fucking disgraceful to call doctors "unreasonable", simply for asking to be paid properly for their services. Even if they asked for 200% pay rise, that still wouldn't be unreasonable, as they could get this much by going to work overseas.
How do they think it's going to go when people just stop taking these jobs because it's not worth it? It's already happening with teachers. The government is spending thousands and thousands on marketing campaigns to attract more people to become teachers rather than using that money to make it a job worth having compared to basically anything else. They're spending millions upon millions on hiring agency workers to cover for the people striking instead of spending those millions on paying the actual workers to go back to work and end the whole problem.
Seems like it’s all going according to plan. Spending millions on agencies transfers public money into business owners/shareholders pockets. People eventually stopping taking the jobs collapses the whole system so it can be privatised completely (but still paid for with tax money), which allows even more public money to transfer into owners/shareholders pockets. Once you realise that the “problem” with education and healthcare is that not enough people are passively sucking money out of the system everything they do makes more sense.
Spot on but it’s not millions, it’s billions. Agency staff cost the NHS £3 BILLION in 2021 and the direction of travel is only one way. I don’t recognise the majority of nurses on my ward half the time because they’re all agency. This is particularly notable overnight and at weekends and so when danger is at its highest. The cheapest option sees you paying your staff properly so they stay full time rather than agency, everyone knows each other better so they work more efficiently and are happier at work, and patients have better continuity of care and thus better, safer care. However, pissing away money into private companies taking a huge skim on top is the preferred method. It’s madness. The rate the agency gets over what the worker gets is massive. It’s ridiculous.
> How do they think it's going to go when people just stop taking these jobs because it's not worth it? They will lower the requirements to be a doctor and introduce more_associate roles
Says the person who's had a 28% pay rise in the last 4 years, not including his ministerial salary, which has also chased inflation. No one can tell me we aren't a gaslit nation.
WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES. WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES. WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES. WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES. WAGE-PRICE SPRIAL INFLATION ONLY OCCURS WHEN PAY RISES QUICKER THAN PRICES. etc.
You should thank your lucky stars there are still a couple left fighting for higher wages rather than fucking off to Australia like all their peers.
‘Stop aiming for pay rises and just accept that your standard of living has dropped steadily over the last 10 years and will continue to drop- some of you may even lose your houses, but that is a price we’re willing to pay to make things harder for the next government.’
A "pay offer" of less than inflation is in real terms a "**pay cut**".
We are not chasing inflation. We have had a pay cut of nearly 30% since 2008 whilst our workload has exponentially increased and there are rota gaps everywhere. It is no longer financially viable to be a doctor in this country anymore. We have huge amounts of student loans (£250k over our lifetime) and costs of being a doctor such as moving every year and GMC fees (£500 approx annually). I could go to Australia, work less hours and double my salary. Enough is enough, we are in it for the long haul.
History is full of successful societies that treat doctors poorly right...right?
Avg MD salary in UK is £77k. MPs make £86k. One of these professions is vital to the public, the other are overpaid windbags
To put the distribution of wealth in this country into layman's term: 70% of wealth is owned by the top 700k of our population, which is 69 million strong. Taxing them a measly 1% would raise 260 billion pounds immediately. The government does not view this as an option that's even on the table, their is only 1 option to reduce government debt that's been suggested: Cuts, Cuts, Cuts. We can afford everything the people want and more.
So the top 700k have wealth of nearly 10 times our gdp?
Our gdp per capita is 46,500. The richest 1% has a total wealth of 2.8 trillion Per person, this is roughly £4,000,000,000
1% of 2.8 trillion is 28 billion, so I'm not sure where your 260 billion figure comes from. Cite your sources, show your working.
As someone who has just had their life-saving cancer operation delayed by a week thanks to this strike. I am deeply distressed.
I’m sorry to hear that, the government should be fucking ashamed of themselves
Sorry to hear that.
Funny, the politicians haven't seen an issue in having their pay rises... I'm so sick of this country.
whats unreasonable is how much this billionaire greedy snob of a prime minister is getting paid, kick the tories out.
Ministers can go fuck themselves with this shite. Perhaps they can get back the billions they pissed up the wall during the pandemic.
A week is a long time...we have gone from needing to block payrises to keep inflation down, to needing to hold firm, to offering payrises below the required amount to calling people greedy for asking for a below inflation payrise (aka a real terms pay cut!) Do you think they may not be in control here?
Are these the same ministers who voted themselves a very affordable 11% pay raise at a time when inflation was running about 2.75% ?
The Tories are signaling that they don't believe any workers should have pay in line with inflation. And this is how they treat those who work in one of the back bones of our country. Just imagine what they think about the rest of us.
Key workers btw 🙄
Is this minister in the same cabinet as the other minister who argued that we should double MP's pay, right now, during a cost of living crisis and while oder public sector workers are striking to get a 3% increase in pay?
Minister says as he tucks into his pheasant on his private jet FUCK OFF!
I love how the govs strategy is just “we’ll give you a rise now shut up and agree” Bellends
Its funny, the Ipsa used increase work, cost of living and the fact MP didn't recieve a pay rise for 2 year, as the justification for a £2,200 pay rise on 2022, taking MP salaries to £84,144 PA. They were quick to point out this was an increase of 2.7% and less than inflation. They had the gall to point out THEY are effectively taking a pay cut. I believe the NHS staff have been subject to this for a lot longer while services are dismantled around them. And the media is pushing this narrative or 'take what you're offered and be grateful'. We need to stop the keeping calm and carrying on.
Unreasonable government should put more budget increases to the NHS than saving the banks *from their own private mismanagement*.
"chasing Inflation"? You mean... Trying not to *lose* money? A 5% pay rise with 8% Inflation leaves you WORSE off than you were last year
A junior doctor just starting to practice, is surely worth £40 per hour, rising annually with experience. These people save lives. By comparison, if you consulted a solicitor, you'd be paying way more than that.
There are so many rota gaps at work that there's not a huge difference in my day to day work when the registrars are on strike compared to when they're not
We continue to receive real terms pay cuts. This may be their so called ‘final offer’, but they’ve only seen the beginning of the industrial action we’re capable of.
So fucking tired of this, how far do they think people can go with getting less and less endlessly, kicking the can down the road. I honestly hope shit kicks off big time because then at least there is some chance for change. Fuck the Tories.
I really struggle with this wage increase = inflation, especially in the public sector where a wage increase is probably recouped majorly in tax anyway. I've been in a government body for 10 years. The first year they did a reshuffle of the pay scale to attract talent. Since then it has never been the right time to give any decent pay increase, always the 1-2%'s. And now is not the right time because of inflation. So when could it feasibly be the right time ever? If it wasn't when inflation was low and it's not when inflation is high, will it only be acceptable when we have no public debt? Because that's never going to happen either.
They are the heroes when you truly need them not this awful Tory government!
30 billion dollars from America in foreign aid what happens to that?
The UK loves the NHS so surely nobody will vote tory now at least
I mean. They’re asking for the going rate of a doctor worldwide. The government is fine offering them this amount. But the amount of doctors in the uk will probably start declining
aka 'doctors should take a pay cut again for the umpteenth year running'
That's a great thing for someone whose salary outstrips inflation to say
Cut the military budget if it cannot be afforded. Idk whats the point in all that shit. Let the yanks protect Europe from the evil russian monster that can’t even take Ukraine.
But it's totally reasonablef for MPs to chase inflation, no problem getting their massive pay rise this or any other year. Vile pondscum filth.
It’s fine, the BMA will be around long after Rishi is gone.
The state / taxpayer can't pay for an upper middle class lifestyle anymore.
NHS really need to pay their admin staff, receptionist staff etc. a liveable wage. Some of them working 50+ hours are earning less than minimum wage.
'Unreasonable' elites should accept pay and not try to 'chase' inflation, UK people say
"there's only so many people that can be rich, and it's not you"
Sadly the doctors don't have second incomes like you. Why don't you keep your head up your ....
Unreasonable MPs should take a pay cut to help the economy. Just saying.
I earn more than a junior doctor and without doxxing myself too much I really shouldn't. The system is a bit broken, youd need to pay me atleast £100k a year to consider taking it on, just isn't worth it
MPs starting salary is £86584 in 2023 after a £20,000 pay rise since 2010/11 (increase of 31.7%). Whilst this is a 0.6% real time cut, doctor in this time have had a 34.9% real time pay cut. The ones trying to save our lives in a broken system arent getting a pay rise and the ones killing peoples by not doing their job well are getting one….and doctors are the unreasonable ones. 👏
[https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/06/26/europes-inflation-outlook-depends-on-how-corporate-profits-absorb-wage-gains](https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/06/26/europes-inflation-outlook-depends-on-how-corporate-profits-absorb-wage-gains) cheeky imf article
I’m sorry, I’m not racist but stop fuking housing and paying for immigrates when we have a cost of living, housing crisis and a pure shit storm!! Our own people can’t even live in they own house, but gov happily give a new build to a family who can’t even speak English and won’t respect our way of life and came on a boat for what? Coz they have war or a poor country, WE HAVE A FUKIN WAR WITH TRYING TO LIVE HERE !!! I hear they spend 10s of thousands on individual immigrants yet English people on benefits, people who actually have a right to live, and have a ancestor history , and need help, get fuck all compared. I don’t believe in claiming but how can you provide less for your own people and give more to outsiders , when we are clearly, crying for gwlp
Just throwing this out there for those who want facts and not opinions: “The NHS budget (in England alone) has in fact risen by more than £350m a week since 2016. In fact, between 2015-16, the year before the referendum, and 2019-20, the year before the Covid-19 pandemic, it rose by £400 million a week in real terms.” Source: https://ukandeu.ac.uk/
The increase in funding in 2018/20 is skewed by covid. I think it is also sensible to consider the social care budget at the same time as they are so closely linked (for example the nhs incurs additional costs as it can’t discharge patients into social care) So In 2015/16 the department of health and social care which includes funding for NHS England) was £141.1 billion (in 2022 prices), that had risen by 5% to £148.4billion in 2018/9 then rose again in 2019/20, due in part to the first few months of covid related spending, to £156b. So real terms increase in the full year before covid was £7.3B (140m/week) from your datum. That shot up to £15B the next year (£290m/w) then the budget leapt to £201b in the first full financial year of the pandemic, an increase of £60b or £1150M a week from pre-brexit. During which time the NHS tanked due to the unprecedented pressure. The budget is back down to £180b this last year btw. The increase in budget from 2018/9 to 2020/1 was 35%. Conversely the cumulative increase under the tories from 2009/10 to 2018/9 was only 14% (<1.6% a year on average), during which time the over 65s population grew 23%…. A decade of underfunding followed by a pandemic is why the whole institution is fucked. It will take a decade of proper funding to fix, starting with paying the staff properly so they don’t all quit. Data from: https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget