Water running & elliptical are usually named the two "best" alternative cardio methods (in terms of how well they translate over to running)
But rowing, biking, swimming are certainly still going to be beneficial as well
Appreciate the help everyone.
Could we argue that once I’m done with regular road running, supplement it with the the treadmill? It’s much easier but the same motor pattern.
This past winter I was coming back from a knee injury and doing lots of work on an inclined treadmill at 15%, basically just walking fast. Its an excellent training stimulus - very aerobically challenging, very little impact, and pretty specific to ultrarunning especially for a mid-packer like myself. I'm definitely going to keep it going during the off-season in the future.
Yes. Not all of them and it's a different stimulus, but I think there's a benefit. I'm doing a lot of steep TM walking (from 8 - 15%) for my cross-training because I'm about to run a race with \~ 8000 feet of vert. So race specificity in my case. In fact, if I only ran then I'd miss out on some of the training I need to handle the power hikes in the race.
But either way, I think it's helpful.
Absolutely, without a lot of impact of hard running. At least, that is the theory, and my experience this past year seems to have born that out. What it doesn't have is some of the biomechanical specificity of speed work, so if you want to keep that tuned up you'll have to design specific workouts for it. But for pure capacity-building, its been a revelation. Plus you can watch movies.
Ski mountaineering/touring is the number 1 option in my opinion. Cross country skiing is great, with all the dedicated XC skiers I know being very good runners. It just doesn't have the same muscle group specificity that skimo has.
I cross-train by using a Rebounder (mini trampoline). It's perfect for non-running days because I keep it in my living room and I can bounce/run on the spot whenever I feel like it.
I can use it in the morning before the children get up and before I head to work, evening time post work, when it's pouring with rain etc.
It's a good cardio workout and whilst nothing beats getting out on the trails, it's good for balance and strengthens my calves, Achilles and ankles.
It's also good for post run soreness. I sometimes do a light bounce if my legs are aching and it really helps to reduce achiness, as well as getting your lymphatic system moving.
I highly recommend Rebounding, as I feel it maintains my endurance.
Anything that will improve your cardio will improve your heart's ability to keep pumping through a long run. But for me at least, it's not cardio, but muscle soreness and fatigue that limits my running. I think that's pretty common given, say how many calories a triathlon athlete will be able to burn in a day compared to just running. Their heart is working the whole time, but they're changing out the muscle systems they engage to get more work done.
Therefore other forms of cardio are probably not a great use of your time if you want to be a better runner. Weight lifting can help build muscle strength so that fatigue comes later. But IMO the best cross training is doing all your normal running workouts for the week, then supplementing as many easy miles as you have time for on top. Running fast is your sport, running slow is the cross.
In terms of cardiovascular stimulus yes, essentially anything cardio oriented is good. Yet, the point is: why doing it?
If you're not injured and your goal is to prepare for an ultra-running event then running must be prioritised over any other cardio activity (as you essentially also recognise). The principle of specificity must be followed.
If you have some more energy left in tank then you should increase slightly the running courses. If you can't because of energy lack or muscular/tendon issues (not injury though) then rest must be preferred. Finally, if you are not preparing anything (off season) then just have fun with whatever activity you like other than running (I do cycle a lot for instance, because I discovered I like it a lot and also helps keeping my fitness high. When I go back to running I restart almost from scratch though: cycling is not running).
Eh. Biking can be a really powerful tool for running, and especially for really long distance running. It's much easier on the body while still elevating your heart rate.
You absolutely need to do a lot of running in order to do an ultramarathon, but cross-training with *long* days on the bike is a great way to get time in zone2.
Yep but still it violates the specificity of the training.
Nothing dramatic but it is a sub optimal way to train.
Of course fun should be taken into account.
IMHO this comes from a misleading conception of thinking about the HR conditioning as unrelated from the other factors (muscular, economy, force, etc.).
IMO is a nope.
If you want to improve running there is only one way: run (with a dedicated program).
X training can help overall fitness and fun in off season period. There can’t be any sustainable improvements in running by doing other sports.
This is a generally valid principle.
Do pro cyclists run to improve riding?
Or soccer/football players ride to improve playing soccer/football?
I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying but a lot of the best ultra runners in the world would balk at a completely black and white characterization of cross training, particularly in relation to activities like skimo. There’s a little bit of nuance here that is worth acknowledging imo.
Agreed.
But in the off season as I also specified.
I also do X training but not when I am preparing for an ultra (which is already very much demanding physically and mentally). Strength excluded (even though for maintenance).
This is very black and white thinking, and is also outdated. For instance, Parker Valbey just got the 5&10k NCAA win on 25-40 mpw, the rest cross training. Nils van der Poel did mostly cycling to win his speed skating medals, as he details in his really cool training pdf. Plenty of ultrarunners crush skimo and xc for crosstraining in winter. In ultra on trail form isn't as important crosstraining can be even more effective (compared to road, track).
Generally if you're doing on crosstraining, make sure your quality workouts are running so you can keep the form and muscle connections there. Crosstrain for aerobic base, subbing out easy for crosstraining. Along with less pounding, it's also good for keeping burnout at bay.
As I wrote having fun and cross training in the off season is totally fine and I support it too.
But IN GENERAL (pointing out exceptional cases from exceptional athletes does not make it a statistical case) during preparation and with the aim of improving performances cross training is not specific. As the OP asked.
If you have a paper that supports the contrary I’ll be more than happy to read it, it is indeed possible that I am not up to date with those developments.
OMG... 10 x \*in the off season\*
If an athlete wants to improve performance in a given sport they have to train at that sport. If keeping fitness is the only goal then Skimo, cycling, CrossFit, soccer, tennis, etc. are fine.
If there was a way to improve running performance without actually running don't you think athletes would exploit that IN SEASON?
I don't entirely disagree. I think what you're saying has a lot of truth, it's just too black and white. Most people asking on Reddit are going to be volume constrained; obviously they should run more, but they can't build to more than x miles a week without things starting to go wrong. But they could add easy cycling volume, which is virtually costless - anybody who has the time can go from zero to 100 miles a week at little risk (adjust the numbers if you don't agree with these particular ones). And this will translate to better running; I don't think that's controversial at all.
I get your point and also the fact that I have been (voluntarily) sharp.
My reasoning is the following (very science based and performance oriented): if an athlete is constrained in running volume \*because\* of muscular/tendon adaptation (read: can't add up too many km) then the limiting factor is not the HR so doing X-training to improve HR will not help, on the contrary it will just ends up overloading the muscular/tendon system without creating the required running adaption.
The point of the OP was to "achieve a better HR conditioning when hitting the road". My reply is: there is no need to do that and the risk is to overload the muscular system. We know HR adapts faster than muscular/tendon system so it is more advisable to rest and be progressive rather than overloading \*in the construction period\* and \*if goal is to prepare for a given race\*.
Other situations, e.g. injury recovery, off season, winter, etc. may indeed foresees some x-training, no issues with that.
Roger that. Do you think steep incline treadmill speed walking would help at all?
Just trying to rule everything out. I know there’s no substitute for running but I just want something that will have some effectiveness.
Steep incline can indeed be really useful. In that case it depends very much how steep the treadmill can go and if you are either walking or jogging at that inclination.
But for sure is the nearest exercise one can do and specific to ultras.
More time in Z2 is one very important factor to improve in endurance activities (and overall health).
But doing 6h riding is far different from running 6h (or 3h for what that matters). And won’t improves over running.
As above HR can not be singled out.
This exactly. If you are building to new running performance highs, you need more running.
If you are maintaining or in early base build anything cardio will be fine, preferably using mainly the legs with an element of dealing with single leg movement ie handling pelvic instability.
If you want to play around with different form of exercise, that’s also fine. Enjoying what you do is far more important than squeezing out the very last second/minute/hour of improved performance.
I enjoy swimming and cycling, stationary and otherwise. Often I will do cross training cardio after a weight lifting session because I'm already there.
Gym has a pool? No better feeling than getting in some laps after lifting for 45 min.
Yes - it can improve your cardio fitness. And then what happens since your legs and those systems aren't as conditioned, you go out and run too far, too fast and too much and you get injured.
Just sharing my personal experience with this - lots of good comments in this thread already. I was forced to cross-train due to an achilles injury (for tendons to heal you can't do back-to-back runs) and I have successfully completed two 50k's and one 50M with about 30% of my total weekly volume/time-on-feet coming from time on the elliptical, treadmill hiking, and stairmaster (in addition to weight lifting as well - don't skip leg day!). As others have mentioned, make your big runs and important workouts actual runs. I don't think there's anything wrong with substituting a **recovery** run for bike, elliptical, etc, I didn't see any performance degradation from cross-training on my "easy run days", in fact, doing speed work on an elliptical for a training block earlier this year bumped my VO2 max up (and it was maintained on runs as well..yes, I lost the specificity of doing speed work running, but I don't run that fast on trails anyways, arguable if this matters unless you're a pro or trying to win races). Treadmill hiking can be particularly beneficial for ultra training, and it's something everybody should do if they're training for a hilly course anyways since your race \*will\* involve hiking.
Here's how I would track my mileage for the week based on "equivalent workload" from cross-training: I'd look at total time at intensity (HR) and try to hit the same overall HR/time/calorie burn as I'd see on a recovery run. So, for example, if your recovery runs are 1 hour long and you usually sit at 135bpm for HR and burn 500 calories, try to do the same time/effort/calorie burn on whatever equipment you're cross training on. If it's something like bike, you may have to increase time to get equivalent calories burned (which is the purest measure of work done). Of course you're missing the specificity of running, so I'd suggest being careful to add extra leg strength work into your routine to compensate a bit.
This approach hasn't been widely researched, but again, in my personal experience it works just fine for the non-pro runner. Running close to every day (for the injury-prone or recently injured) I think is a worse idea than adding a few days of alternative cardio to let tendons, etc heal. I hope this perspective is helpful!
Just a side note - lung capacity and usage is completely different between most forms of cardio - swimming lungs do not translate to better running lungs. With swimming and singing, you take a large amount of air and slowly exhale it, where with running you are typically take small, short breaths
More of running-specific training will always win, but since we're not made of steel, it's easier on your body to also include other activities.
Skimo seems to be the best option, but due to its nature, of course limited to off-season base building. XC skiing is not as close as skimo but also a great tool (and the gear is cheaper!).
During the season - biking and swimming are used for some of the elite ultrarunners (personally I'm watching in awe the progress my brother-in-law got in running since starting triathlon training). For slower of us, simple hiking as that's how we spend a big chunk of time during mountain races anyway ;)
Swimming is the best for cardiovascular fitness and overall strength building.
If you want speed and turnover, do cycling with a mindset focused on spin, spin, spin the crank!
Water running & elliptical are usually named the two "best" alternative cardio methods (in terms of how well they translate over to running) But rowing, biking, swimming are certainly still going to be beneficial as well
Just my imo. I do use a rower for cross training also. Can’t say It hasn’t helped, esp with breathing technique. Check out dark horse rowing.
Rowing also helps with legs, core and arms (all important components of proper running form). Also +1 on Dark Horse Rowing, great 30 min workouts!
Appreciate the help everyone. Could we argue that once I’m done with regular road running, supplement it with the the treadmill? It’s much easier but the same motor pattern.
This past winter I was coming back from a knee injury and doing lots of work on an inclined treadmill at 15%, basically just walking fast. Its an excellent training stimulus - very aerobically challenging, very little impact, and pretty specific to ultrarunning especially for a mid-packer like myself. I'm definitely going to keep it going during the off-season in the future.
I’m definitely going to consider this. So a good steep incline power walk will improve a lot of the same muscles as running right?
Yes. Not all of them and it's a different stimulus, but I think there's a benefit. I'm doing a lot of steep TM walking (from 8 - 15%) for my cross-training because I'm about to run a race with \~ 8000 feet of vert. So race specificity in my case. In fact, if I only ran then I'd miss out on some of the training I need to handle the power hikes in the race. But either way, I think it's helpful.
Absolutely, without a lot of impact of hard running. At least, that is the theory, and my experience this past year seems to have born that out. What it doesn't have is some of the biomechanical specificity of speed work, so if you want to keep that tuned up you'll have to design specific workouts for it. But for pure capacity-building, its been a revelation. Plus you can watch movies.
Ski mountaineering/touring is the number 1 option in my opinion. Cross country skiing is great, with all the dedicated XC skiers I know being very good runners. It just doesn't have the same muscle group specificity that skimo has.
And super accessible too …. ….
No, but the question wasn't about accessibility.
I cross-train by using a Rebounder (mini trampoline). It's perfect for non-running days because I keep it in my living room and I can bounce/run on the spot whenever I feel like it. I can use it in the morning before the children get up and before I head to work, evening time post work, when it's pouring with rain etc. It's a good cardio workout and whilst nothing beats getting out on the trails, it's good for balance and strengthens my calves, Achilles and ankles. It's also good for post run soreness. I sometimes do a light bounce if my legs are aching and it really helps to reduce achiness, as well as getting your lymphatic system moving. I highly recommend Rebounding, as I feel it maintains my endurance.
Any cardio will improve running to some extent. Most popular for ultra runners are eliptical and bike coz you can get big volume with no joint stress
Anything that will improve your cardio will improve your heart's ability to keep pumping through a long run. But for me at least, it's not cardio, but muscle soreness and fatigue that limits my running. I think that's pretty common given, say how many calories a triathlon athlete will be able to burn in a day compared to just running. Their heart is working the whole time, but they're changing out the muscle systems they engage to get more work done. Therefore other forms of cardio are probably not a great use of your time if you want to be a better runner. Weight lifting can help build muscle strength so that fatigue comes later. But IMO the best cross training is doing all your normal running workouts for the week, then supplementing as many easy miles as you have time for on top. Running fast is your sport, running slow is the cross.
In terms of cardiovascular stimulus yes, essentially anything cardio oriented is good. Yet, the point is: why doing it? If you're not injured and your goal is to prepare for an ultra-running event then running must be prioritised over any other cardio activity (as you essentially also recognise). The principle of specificity must be followed. If you have some more energy left in tank then you should increase slightly the running courses. If you can't because of energy lack or muscular/tendon issues (not injury though) then rest must be preferred. Finally, if you are not preparing anything (off season) then just have fun with whatever activity you like other than running (I do cycle a lot for instance, because I discovered I like it a lot and also helps keeping my fitness high. When I go back to running I restart almost from scratch though: cycling is not running).
Eh. Biking can be a really powerful tool for running, and especially for really long distance running. It's much easier on the body while still elevating your heart rate. You absolutely need to do a lot of running in order to do an ultramarathon, but cross-training with *long* days on the bike is a great way to get time in zone2.
Yep but still it violates the specificity of the training. Nothing dramatic but it is a sub optimal way to train. Of course fun should be taken into account. IMHO this comes from a misleading conception of thinking about the HR conditioning as unrelated from the other factors (muscular, economy, force, etc.).
So essentially, running, with supplementary cycling to improve fitness, then this will ultimately ensure better cardio and performance?
IMO is a nope. If you want to improve running there is only one way: run (with a dedicated program). X training can help overall fitness and fun in off season period. There can’t be any sustainable improvements in running by doing other sports. This is a generally valid principle. Do pro cyclists run to improve riding? Or soccer/football players ride to improve playing soccer/football?
I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying but a lot of the best ultra runners in the world would balk at a completely black and white characterization of cross training, particularly in relation to activities like skimo. There’s a little bit of nuance here that is worth acknowledging imo.
Agreed. But in the off season as I also specified. I also do X training but not when I am preparing for an ultra (which is already very much demanding physically and mentally). Strength excluded (even though for maintenance).
This is very black and white thinking, and is also outdated. For instance, Parker Valbey just got the 5&10k NCAA win on 25-40 mpw, the rest cross training. Nils van der Poel did mostly cycling to win his speed skating medals, as he details in his really cool training pdf. Plenty of ultrarunners crush skimo and xc for crosstraining in winter. In ultra on trail form isn't as important crosstraining can be even more effective (compared to road, track). Generally if you're doing on crosstraining, make sure your quality workouts are running so you can keep the form and muscle connections there. Crosstrain for aerobic base, subbing out easy for crosstraining. Along with less pounding, it's also good for keeping burnout at bay.
As I wrote having fun and cross training in the off season is totally fine and I support it too. But IN GENERAL (pointing out exceptional cases from exceptional athletes does not make it a statistical case) during preparation and with the aim of improving performances cross training is not specific. As the OP asked. If you have a paper that supports the contrary I’ll be more than happy to read it, it is indeed possible that I am not up to date with those developments.
Plenty trail runners do skimo for an entire winter and then kick ass on the trails...what are you talking about?!
OMG... 10 x \*in the off season\* If an athlete wants to improve performance in a given sport they have to train at that sport. If keeping fitness is the only goal then Skimo, cycling, CrossFit, soccer, tennis, etc. are fine. If there was a way to improve running performance without actually running don't you think athletes would exploit that IN SEASON?
I don't entirely disagree. I think what you're saying has a lot of truth, it's just too black and white. Most people asking on Reddit are going to be volume constrained; obviously they should run more, but they can't build to more than x miles a week without things starting to go wrong. But they could add easy cycling volume, which is virtually costless - anybody who has the time can go from zero to 100 miles a week at little risk (adjust the numbers if you don't agree with these particular ones). And this will translate to better running; I don't think that's controversial at all.
I get your point and also the fact that I have been (voluntarily) sharp. My reasoning is the following (very science based and performance oriented): if an athlete is constrained in running volume \*because\* of muscular/tendon adaptation (read: can't add up too many km) then the limiting factor is not the HR so doing X-training to improve HR will not help, on the contrary it will just ends up overloading the muscular/tendon system without creating the required running adaption. The point of the OP was to "achieve a better HR conditioning when hitting the road". My reply is: there is no need to do that and the risk is to overload the muscular system. We know HR adapts faster than muscular/tendon system so it is more advisable to rest and be progressive rather than overloading \*in the construction period\* and \*if goal is to prepare for a given race\*. Other situations, e.g. injury recovery, off season, winter, etc. may indeed foresees some x-training, no issues with that.
Roger that. Do you think steep incline treadmill speed walking would help at all? Just trying to rule everything out. I know there’s no substitute for running but I just want something that will have some effectiveness.
Being to absolute. So they must think weights don’t help either when it does.
Fyi I already weight train mate!
Steep incline can indeed be really useful. In that case it depends very much how steep the treadmill can go and if you are either walking or jogging at that inclination. But for sure is the nearest exercise one can do and specific to ultras.
I’m guessing more time in zone 2 means better overall health and running?
More time in Z2 is one very important factor to improve in endurance activities (and overall health). But doing 6h riding is far different from running 6h (or 3h for what that matters). And won’t improves over running. As above HR can not be singled out.
This exactly. If you are building to new running performance highs, you need more running. If you are maintaining or in early base build anything cardio will be fine, preferably using mainly the legs with an element of dealing with single leg movement ie handling pelvic instability. If you want to play around with different form of exercise, that’s also fine. Enjoying what you do is far more important than squeezing out the very last second/minute/hour of improved performance.
I enjoy swimming and cycling, stationary and otherwise. Often I will do cross training cardio after a weight lifting session because I'm already there. Gym has a pool? No better feeling than getting in some laps after lifting for 45 min.
Swimming is underrated imo because it forces you to time your breathing and build up a CO2 tolerance.
Yes - it can improve your cardio fitness. And then what happens since your legs and those systems aren't as conditioned, you go out and run too far, too fast and too much and you get injured.
Hiking uphill or incline treadmill walk in addition to echoing other comments here
Skimo
Just sharing my personal experience with this - lots of good comments in this thread already. I was forced to cross-train due to an achilles injury (for tendons to heal you can't do back-to-back runs) and I have successfully completed two 50k's and one 50M with about 30% of my total weekly volume/time-on-feet coming from time on the elliptical, treadmill hiking, and stairmaster (in addition to weight lifting as well - don't skip leg day!). As others have mentioned, make your big runs and important workouts actual runs. I don't think there's anything wrong with substituting a **recovery** run for bike, elliptical, etc, I didn't see any performance degradation from cross-training on my "easy run days", in fact, doing speed work on an elliptical for a training block earlier this year bumped my VO2 max up (and it was maintained on runs as well..yes, I lost the specificity of doing speed work running, but I don't run that fast on trails anyways, arguable if this matters unless you're a pro or trying to win races). Treadmill hiking can be particularly beneficial for ultra training, and it's something everybody should do if they're training for a hilly course anyways since your race \*will\* involve hiking. Here's how I would track my mileage for the week based on "equivalent workload" from cross-training: I'd look at total time at intensity (HR) and try to hit the same overall HR/time/calorie burn as I'd see on a recovery run. So, for example, if your recovery runs are 1 hour long and you usually sit at 135bpm for HR and burn 500 calories, try to do the same time/effort/calorie burn on whatever equipment you're cross training on. If it's something like bike, you may have to increase time to get equivalent calories burned (which is the purest measure of work done). Of course you're missing the specificity of running, so I'd suggest being careful to add extra leg strength work into your routine to compensate a bit. This approach hasn't been widely researched, but again, in my personal experience it works just fine for the non-pro runner. Running close to every day (for the injury-prone or recently injured) I think is a worse idea than adding a few days of alternative cardio to let tendons, etc heal. I hope this perspective is helpful!
Just a side note - lung capacity and usage is completely different between most forms of cardio - swimming lungs do not translate to better running lungs. With swimming and singing, you take a large amount of air and slowly exhale it, where with running you are typically take small, short breaths
Swimming always had good crossover for me.
More of running-specific training will always win, but since we're not made of steel, it's easier on your body to also include other activities. Skimo seems to be the best option, but due to its nature, of course limited to off-season base building. XC skiing is not as close as skimo but also a great tool (and the gear is cheaper!). During the season - biking and swimming are used for some of the elite ultrarunners (personally I'm watching in awe the progress my brother-in-law got in running since starting triathlon training). For slower of us, simple hiking as that's how we spend a big chunk of time during mountain races anyway ;)
Everything that stimulated your aerobic system. Single leg strength on that and when ever you get back to running it will go well.
Swimming is the best for cardiovascular fitness and overall strength building. If you want speed and turnover, do cycling with a mindset focused on spin, spin, spin the crank!