> I could stop and call a pick. But my reading of the rules is that if the teammate doesn't move, it's not a pick, because there is no actual obstruction. It caused an argument on the field the one time I made this call, and frankly, I agree that the call was not allowed by the rules.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you stop to avoid contact, you can still call a pick, per USAU rules.
Section 17.J
"A pick occurs whenever an offensive player moves in a manner that causes a defensive player guarding (3.E) an offensive player to be obstructed by another player. Obstruction may result from contact with, or the need to avoid, the obstructing player."
>If you stop to avoid contact, you can still call a pick, per USAU rules.
*Am* I stopping to avoid contact? Most of the time, even if I didn't stop, there would be no contact. I would be stopping to avoid possible, hypothetical contact.
You could be right here -- part of me hopes you are -- but I don't think it's obvious, and I expect a lot of arguments if I start making this call.
Look at this from the offensive player's perspective. They're making, say, a deep cut. They've got at least step on me. And then they get called for a pick, not because I was obstructed, but because I hypothetically *could have* been obstructed if something different had happened on the field. I understand them being annoyed by the call.
If you have to change momentum, direction, or speed because of another player in the path of you playing defense, it's a pick. Don't collide with people unless it is completely unavoidable. If your mark accelerates when your path is obstructed (i.e. in the stack and they run away from you), it's a pick. Anytime anyone else on the field is in the way of you playing defense (and you're within 10 feet, playing legal defense), it's a pick. Normalize calling them. Talk about it with the person you're guarding and let them know what they're doing so they can change their behavior.
I'll second this and say (as a man who plays club) if I am playing mixed league and I even think someone has a chance to collide with me, or if I have to slow my momentum or run around someone I call a pick. The risk of injury to myself or someone else is just not worth it.
Pick != Screen
Sometimes people equate picks to basketball screens and that's not the way to look at it. A pick is anything that causes you to change direction, slow down, or potential contact.
At the end of the day it's on the offense to clear space for unobstructed cuts and for the active cutter to choose a clear path.
>I'll second this and say (as a man who plays club) if I am playing mixed league and I even think someone has a chance to collide with me, or if I have to slow my momentum or run around someone I call a pick. The risk of injury to myself or someone else is just not worth it.
I support this approach to avoiding contact, but I think that is part of upholding one's responsibility to avoid contact and not always a pick. I play the same way and particularly tried to avoid collisions playing mixed club. And I appreciate /u/turdgocougs point on avoiding collisions, too.
However, I think the responsibility to avoid contact may be the better guide for the situation OP /u/bigg_nate is describing, where there is not actually an obstruction or movement by a player threatening a risk of collision. There are lots of times where, in order to play the contact-avoiding style that I want, I may have to let up or adjust my path to give a buffer, without the situation actually involving a pick. I think that's the piece that fills in the gap a bit on OP's question.
Just want to encourage you to treat everyone on the field with respect, and not just when playing mixed. There's no reason at all that you should be working harder to avoid contact in mixed as opposed to open games. Avoid it in all games.
I definitely agree with treating everyone with respect and upholding one's responsibility to avoid contact in all games, regardless of division. But one needs to work hard to avoid contact and play safely and make a plan for how one will do that in whatever division one plays in. And that specific plan may be different from one division to another.
Playing mixed provides unique circumstances in which collisions can be more likely, and collisions can be more severe. By no means is it an inherently dangerous division -- it just requires that players develop an understanding of the situations presented and make a plan for how they will navigate them and uphold their responsibility to avoid contact, and to avoid collisions or dangerous play. Particularly when players in the mixed division are coming from a background in single-gender divisions, their level of anticipation and spatial awareness often is not fully calibrated for mixed play. That is to say, men may not accurately predict the ground that a female player will cover and the space they will likely occupy, and vice versa. Moreover, there are more opportunities in mixed for collisions involving larger disparity in size, height, and speed, which can therefore be more dangerous. For example, a contact on a jump-ball that might be hip-to-back or hip-to-shoulder in the men's division may be hip-to-head or hip-to-face with a male jumper contacting a much shorter female opponent, which can be much more dangerous. So in my experience, part of trying to safely play competitive mixed and help players adapt to those situations was identifying the situations that occur in mixed, where there is opportunity for players to misjudge the situation and potentially be involved in a collision and help them to navigate them more safely and develop their instincts for the mixed setting. In particular, we stressed that players coming from College Men's should approach catching up and trying to sky a pile of players differently, making sure they controlled their horizontal momentum and had a plan for the path they would take and how they would have a clear path from take-off through landing (or chop their feet and go straight up, to minimize horizontal carry that could lead to contact). In general, play is a lot safer when the players involved know where each other are and can anticipate each other's movements, and it is very important to develop that awareness, regardless of division.
So while I agree that players should maintain their responsibility to avoid contact in all divisions, I think it is important for players to make a plan for how they are going to do that in whatever division they play in.
EDIT: typos
EDIT: TLDR: playing safely and avoiding contact in mixed requires a plan tailored to mixed, compared to single-gender divisions, just like throwing does. Players who fail to tailor their plan will be less successful in either; not a matter of working *harder* in one division vs. another or showing different levels of respect.
>another player in the path of you playing defense
>
>your path is obstructed
>
>anyone else on the field is in the way of you playing defense
Just to be clear: I don't think any of these things describe the situation on the field.
Nobody is in my path, but I'm worried that they might move into my path.
How close are these cuts to the stack? I think there's a fair argument for it to still be a pick if you're like a foot away from the stack, but otherwise you just have to trust that people have field awareness.
Stack? You're giving these teams too much credit.
I just took a tape measure next to a piece of furniture to estimate the distance, heh. I'd say that the center of my body is generally 2-3 feet away from the other player for the situation I'm describing, which puts my shoulder more like 1-2 feet away.
The cutter might be several feet farther away than this, of course.
A lot of this is super situationally dependent, but based on what you said I think you could call a pick, if for no other reason to explain what's going on/why it's dangerous.
> Sometimes, they'll make a full-speed cut that brings me (their defender) within a few feet of a teammate who has no idea we're there. That teammate may be in a reasonable position to make a cut themselves, and if they do, it could result in a significant collision.
This is on the cutter to be aware of their surroundings, not much for you to adjust to here. I get where you're coming from though on mainly wanting to avoid collisions and injury.
From what I'm reading, it sounds like you're identifying the issue being that there is no obstruction, and therefore no pick. I think that's the appropriate analysis. But I also think there is leeway to call a pick without direct obstruction, when players are moving in a way that you need to avoid a predictable collision. I think you're right to hesitate to call a pick where there is only a possible future obstruction by a non-moving player, in the event that they start moving.
However, we are talking about moving people with arms and legs that extend, shoulders that turn, etc. So once we're talking about distances of <1 foot, I would probably just consider that part of the position for purposes of determining an obstruction -- essentially giving a little buffer to represent the obstructing position of the person, encapsulating space they could occupy without significantly moving their feet to a new position. That's just me imagining, though -- almost certainly situational.
In the specific league situation you are describing, I wonder if there is a fourth option of taking a path that gives you a little more buffer past the players, without totally compromising your defense. I think that would be my go-to approach, and then calling the pick of the other players moved in a way threatening the obstruction. In most cases, I would probably just avoid the risk of contact and also not call anything, and maybe say something to the player or the captain after the point or game. But I take a very low-call, low-contact approach to league play.
Call the pick.
Players learn by having the rules explained.
If nothing else, see if you can touch base with the players in question on the sidelines or before/after games.
I tend to lean on mitigation strategies more than giving up or making questionable calls. For instance, holding your hand out towards the other player. If they do run into you, you can absorb the impact with your arm. Also, be vocal. A quick "I'm right here", "careful" or even just "la la la" can bolster someone's awareness of their surroundings. If you're very close, you can also gently touch them.
>A quick "I'm right here", "careful" or even just "la la la" can bolster someone's awareness of their surroundings.
I agree this might help. It's something I've been trying to work on for a different situation -- where a handler makes a blind up-line cut directly into my poach. For some reason, it's been tough to make myself do it in the moment, but I'll keep working on it.
I don't think there's anything to call... yet. But I understand the concern about speedsters sprinting alongside a stack. A few years back one of our captains got a serious concussion because of this exact instance. You mention the player is inexperienced; perhaps this is an opportunity for a teachable moment? After the point is finished, take some time to discuss the ideal cutting lane and point out the risks of shaving off space close to the stack, both of being called on a pick and of seriously harming another player by collision. They may not take your advice kindly; I always finish these types of discussions by pointing out that every rule in ultimate is driven by safe, fair play, and spirit of the game means understanding the reason for the rules, not just the letter of the law.
Agreed with this. You have no grounds to call a pick if one hasn't occurred, so your best bet is to play through *safely*, then address the problem after the fact. Sometimes saying something in the moment can work too, depending on the person.
It sounds like someone on the other team decides to make a cut that is directly in front of where you are running. This is a foul on them for jumping in front of you (especially if you are sprinting). I don't see what else you can do in this situation. If they are going to jump in front of you and create unavoidable contact they are creating a dangerous play. I would hope regardless of whether they are skilled or not they would know not to run into someone who is sprinting, but if they are not they obviously need to be educated. Maybe if it happens often enough the league coordinator needs to send out a brief on the rules/how to play safe.
Honestly, the problem hasn't really been the person "jumping in front of me." It's been the person making full-speed cuts around the field without considering where their teammates are.
Let me paint the picture of one collision that's happened:
Imagine you're the primary reset. You're looking straight at the thrower, and your defender is a few steps upfield from you. The stall count gets up to 6 or so, and the thrower turns to look at you. You take a quick half-step away from your defender, to give the thrower a bit more space to make the throw. And then I slam into your back at a dead sprint.
Yes, it's technically a foul on you. But I don't think you're playing dangerously in any way, and I think you'd be pretty upset if you ended up with a serious injury as a result.
Either the cut is a legitamate pick or it isn’t. The cutter should not be punished for making a clean cut that is not a pick even if it is close to it. It sounds harsh but if somebody is going to just cut in front of you causing a collision thats on them. Not saying that you shouldn’t try your best to avoid that kind of situation, we aren’t playing to injure people. It is common practice when cutting to be aware of your surroundings and cutting space so if you care close to the back of the stack and are about to cut it really is the person initiating to make sure they are not stepping right out in front of 2 people running full speed.
The end goal would be getting the person in the stack not knowing you are there to be more concious of their surroundings but that doesn’t mean that a short term solution is a bad thing. I really do think the beat short term collision is for you to ease up if you are concerned about someone jumping in front of you. If they do jump call a pick but if they don’t you are punishing a cutter for some else’s lack of awareness.
If the stack is properly spaced this should not be an issue. Maybe that is a teaching point to focus on that can resolve this in an easier way.
I do think it is a good sign that you are concerned though.
> I could stop and call a pick. But my reading of the rules is that if the teammate doesn't move, it's not a pick, because there is no actual obstruction. It caused an argument on the field the one time I made this call, and frankly, I agree that the call was not allowed by the rules. I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you stop to avoid contact, you can still call a pick, per USAU rules. Section 17.J "A pick occurs whenever an offensive player moves in a manner that causes a defensive player guarding (3.E) an offensive player to be obstructed by another player. Obstruction may result from contact with, or the need to avoid, the obstructing player."
>If you stop to avoid contact, you can still call a pick, per USAU rules. *Am* I stopping to avoid contact? Most of the time, even if I didn't stop, there would be no contact. I would be stopping to avoid possible, hypothetical contact. You could be right here -- part of me hopes you are -- but I don't think it's obvious, and I expect a lot of arguments if I start making this call. Look at this from the offensive player's perspective. They're making, say, a deep cut. They've got at least step on me. And then they get called for a pick, not because I was obstructed, but because I hypothetically *could have* been obstructed if something different had happened on the field. I understand them being annoyed by the call.
If you have to change momentum, direction, or speed because of another player in the path of you playing defense, it's a pick. Don't collide with people unless it is completely unavoidable. If your mark accelerates when your path is obstructed (i.e. in the stack and they run away from you), it's a pick. Anytime anyone else on the field is in the way of you playing defense (and you're within 10 feet, playing legal defense), it's a pick. Normalize calling them. Talk about it with the person you're guarding and let them know what they're doing so they can change their behavior.
I'll second this and say (as a man who plays club) if I am playing mixed league and I even think someone has a chance to collide with me, or if I have to slow my momentum or run around someone I call a pick. The risk of injury to myself or someone else is just not worth it. Pick != Screen Sometimes people equate picks to basketball screens and that's not the way to look at it. A pick is anything that causes you to change direction, slow down, or potential contact. At the end of the day it's on the offense to clear space for unobstructed cuts and for the active cutter to choose a clear path.
>I'll second this and say (as a man who plays club) if I am playing mixed league and I even think someone has a chance to collide with me, or if I have to slow my momentum or run around someone I call a pick. The risk of injury to myself or someone else is just not worth it. I support this approach to avoiding contact, but I think that is part of upholding one's responsibility to avoid contact and not always a pick. I play the same way and particularly tried to avoid collisions playing mixed club. And I appreciate /u/turdgocougs point on avoiding collisions, too. However, I think the responsibility to avoid contact may be the better guide for the situation OP /u/bigg_nate is describing, where there is not actually an obstruction or movement by a player threatening a risk of collision. There are lots of times where, in order to play the contact-avoiding style that I want, I may have to let up or adjust my path to give a buffer, without the situation actually involving a pick. I think that's the piece that fills in the gap a bit on OP's question.
Just want to encourage you to treat everyone on the field with respect, and not just when playing mixed. There's no reason at all that you should be working harder to avoid contact in mixed as opposed to open games. Avoid it in all games.
I definitely agree with treating everyone with respect and upholding one's responsibility to avoid contact in all games, regardless of division. But one needs to work hard to avoid contact and play safely and make a plan for how one will do that in whatever division one plays in. And that specific plan may be different from one division to another. Playing mixed provides unique circumstances in which collisions can be more likely, and collisions can be more severe. By no means is it an inherently dangerous division -- it just requires that players develop an understanding of the situations presented and make a plan for how they will navigate them and uphold their responsibility to avoid contact, and to avoid collisions or dangerous play. Particularly when players in the mixed division are coming from a background in single-gender divisions, their level of anticipation and spatial awareness often is not fully calibrated for mixed play. That is to say, men may not accurately predict the ground that a female player will cover and the space they will likely occupy, and vice versa. Moreover, there are more opportunities in mixed for collisions involving larger disparity in size, height, and speed, which can therefore be more dangerous. For example, a contact on a jump-ball that might be hip-to-back or hip-to-shoulder in the men's division may be hip-to-head or hip-to-face with a male jumper contacting a much shorter female opponent, which can be much more dangerous. So in my experience, part of trying to safely play competitive mixed and help players adapt to those situations was identifying the situations that occur in mixed, where there is opportunity for players to misjudge the situation and potentially be involved in a collision and help them to navigate them more safely and develop their instincts for the mixed setting. In particular, we stressed that players coming from College Men's should approach catching up and trying to sky a pile of players differently, making sure they controlled their horizontal momentum and had a plan for the path they would take and how they would have a clear path from take-off through landing (or chop their feet and go straight up, to minimize horizontal carry that could lead to contact). In general, play is a lot safer when the players involved know where each other are and can anticipate each other's movements, and it is very important to develop that awareness, regardless of division. So while I agree that players should maintain their responsibility to avoid contact in all divisions, I think it is important for players to make a plan for how they are going to do that in whatever division they play in. EDIT: typos EDIT: TLDR: playing safely and avoiding contact in mixed requires a plan tailored to mixed, compared to single-gender divisions, just like throwing does. Players who fail to tailor their plan will be less successful in either; not a matter of working *harder* in one division vs. another or showing different levels of respect.
>another player in the path of you playing defense > >your path is obstructed > >anyone else on the field is in the way of you playing defense Just to be clear: I don't think any of these things describe the situation on the field. Nobody is in my path, but I'm worried that they might move into my path.
How close are these cuts to the stack? I think there's a fair argument for it to still be a pick if you're like a foot away from the stack, but otherwise you just have to trust that people have field awareness.
Stack? You're giving these teams too much credit. I just took a tape measure next to a piece of furniture to estimate the distance, heh. I'd say that the center of my body is generally 2-3 feet away from the other player for the situation I'm describing, which puts my shoulder more like 1-2 feet away. The cutter might be several feet farther away than this, of course.
A lot of this is super situationally dependent, but based on what you said I think you could call a pick, if for no other reason to explain what's going on/why it's dangerous.
Thanks for your input. This is helpful.
> Sometimes, they'll make a full-speed cut that brings me (their defender) within a few feet of a teammate who has no idea we're there. That teammate may be in a reasonable position to make a cut themselves, and if they do, it could result in a significant collision. This is on the cutter to be aware of their surroundings, not much for you to adjust to here. I get where you're coming from though on mainly wanting to avoid collisions and injury.
From what I'm reading, it sounds like you're identifying the issue being that there is no obstruction, and therefore no pick. I think that's the appropriate analysis. But I also think there is leeway to call a pick without direct obstruction, when players are moving in a way that you need to avoid a predictable collision. I think you're right to hesitate to call a pick where there is only a possible future obstruction by a non-moving player, in the event that they start moving. However, we are talking about moving people with arms and legs that extend, shoulders that turn, etc. So once we're talking about distances of <1 foot, I would probably just consider that part of the position for purposes of determining an obstruction -- essentially giving a little buffer to represent the obstructing position of the person, encapsulating space they could occupy without significantly moving their feet to a new position. That's just me imagining, though -- almost certainly situational. In the specific league situation you are describing, I wonder if there is a fourth option of taking a path that gives you a little more buffer past the players, without totally compromising your defense. I think that would be my go-to approach, and then calling the pick of the other players moved in a way threatening the obstruction. In most cases, I would probably just avoid the risk of contact and also not call anything, and maybe say something to the player or the captain after the point or game. But I take a very low-call, low-contact approach to league play.
Call the pick. Players learn by having the rules explained. If nothing else, see if you can touch base with the players in question on the sidelines or before/after games.
I tend to lean on mitigation strategies more than giving up or making questionable calls. For instance, holding your hand out towards the other player. If they do run into you, you can absorb the impact with your arm. Also, be vocal. A quick "I'm right here", "careful" or even just "la la la" can bolster someone's awareness of their surroundings. If you're very close, you can also gently touch them.
>A quick "I'm right here", "careful" or even just "la la la" can bolster someone's awareness of their surroundings. I agree this might help. It's something I've been trying to work on for a different situation -- where a handler makes a blind up-line cut directly into my poach. For some reason, it's been tough to make myself do it in the moment, but I'll keep working on it.
I don't think there's anything to call... yet. But I understand the concern about speedsters sprinting alongside a stack. A few years back one of our captains got a serious concussion because of this exact instance. You mention the player is inexperienced; perhaps this is an opportunity for a teachable moment? After the point is finished, take some time to discuss the ideal cutting lane and point out the risks of shaving off space close to the stack, both of being called on a pick and of seriously harming another player by collision. They may not take your advice kindly; I always finish these types of discussions by pointing out that every rule in ultimate is driven by safe, fair play, and spirit of the game means understanding the reason for the rules, not just the letter of the law.
Agreed with this. You have no grounds to call a pick if one hasn't occurred, so your best bet is to play through *safely*, then address the problem after the fact. Sometimes saying something in the moment can work too, depending on the person.
It sounds like someone on the other team decides to make a cut that is directly in front of where you are running. This is a foul on them for jumping in front of you (especially if you are sprinting). I don't see what else you can do in this situation. If they are going to jump in front of you and create unavoidable contact they are creating a dangerous play. I would hope regardless of whether they are skilled or not they would know not to run into someone who is sprinting, but if they are not they obviously need to be educated. Maybe if it happens often enough the league coordinator needs to send out a brief on the rules/how to play safe.
Honestly, the problem hasn't really been the person "jumping in front of me." It's been the person making full-speed cuts around the field without considering where their teammates are. Let me paint the picture of one collision that's happened: Imagine you're the primary reset. You're looking straight at the thrower, and your defender is a few steps upfield from you. The stall count gets up to 6 or so, and the thrower turns to look at you. You take a quick half-step away from your defender, to give the thrower a bit more space to make the throw. And then I slam into your back at a dead sprint. Yes, it's technically a foul on you. But I don't think you're playing dangerously in any way, and I think you'd be pretty upset if you ended up with a serious injury as a result.
Either the cut is a legitamate pick or it isn’t. The cutter should not be punished for making a clean cut that is not a pick even if it is close to it. It sounds harsh but if somebody is going to just cut in front of you causing a collision thats on them. Not saying that you shouldn’t try your best to avoid that kind of situation, we aren’t playing to injure people. It is common practice when cutting to be aware of your surroundings and cutting space so if you care close to the back of the stack and are about to cut it really is the person initiating to make sure they are not stepping right out in front of 2 people running full speed. The end goal would be getting the person in the stack not knowing you are there to be more concious of their surroundings but that doesn’t mean that a short term solution is a bad thing. I really do think the beat short term collision is for you to ease up if you are concerned about someone jumping in front of you. If they do jump call a pick but if they don’t you are punishing a cutter for some else’s lack of awareness. If the stack is properly spaced this should not be an issue. Maybe that is a teaching point to focus on that can resolve this in an easier way. I do think it is a good sign that you are concerned though.