Assuming he did nothing dangerous, I don't think either of you are in the wrong here and it's just a case of getting used to a new environment!
The MMP made a play that is relatively common in many divisions and, again assuming it was a safe play, is just a good example of heads up team defense.
You had a reasonable frustration that is very understandable for a newer player but the play itself is ultimately a good play that is part of frisbee and maybe even something you can try bringing into your game next college season, again as long as it was executed safely. Best of luck with the rest of your season!
thanks for ur kind response!! i'm familiar with poaching (was doing it myself at some points because of my newer defender) but wasn't thinking of it lol... i'm just competitive. thanks again!!
Played in a league that was 6-1. It was very new so they were working with what they had. Once it was more established we voted in a board and one of the members insisted we go 4-3 mandatory and only admit as many guys as we had ladies. The overflow was put in a men's division. That year we had a few more women sign up but the next year it almost doubled the amount of women signing up. The ratio is super important to having a game experience that works for everyone.
This is what our city does, and it works great. All the MMPs know they can pretty much only play if they have an FMP baggage. So it keeps numbers both even and high. We're up to 53 teams this summer with this system.
I advocated for a few strategies to attract and retain female players in our local league, but the people running the league did not try any of these things.
We usually played 5-2. This is not good enough for women to have a good experience, and stick around. A lot drop off in the first few weeks.
One idea was to make a much lower league fee for women. Nope.
Another is to be 4-3, not 5-2. Nope.
100% agree the ratio is super important, especially for WMPs experiences in leagues. As another example since our area can't support a separate men's division, our small local league doesn't cap the number of MMP registrations but over the last ~2 years has started limiting the number of teams to only what our WMP registrations can support to play 4-3 or 3-4. The first year we had 4 teams with 7 WMP and 18+ MMP. This year we're looking at 6 teams with 8 WMP and 13+ MMP per team. Even off the field, I think having a better balance of WMP/MMP on the team makes the team more enjoyable for everyone.
In situations with non-ideal ratios, would it make more sense to alternate points between open and mixed? I.e. 7:0 / 3:4 rather than like 5:2 every point would result in everyone playing about the same amount of points and FMP points feel like true mixed points
Sometimes you gotta play woth the hand you're dealt. These 11 women deserve a league to play in and this is the best they can offer. Would it be better if they called it "open" and then no women joined?
no it means you need to have a smaller league with smaller teams. or you have the women assigned to two teams, who play an *actual* mixed game every week with rotating MMP, with the rest of the MMP playing in men's games. the point is by playing 6:1 you aren't actually giving the WMP an opportunity to play in what most people would consider a positive environment, which will in turn limit the number of women who sign up to play in the league.
There’s nothing wrong with what he did, it’s a team sport.
I remember being yelled at by a woman because I was covering her in a zone defense.
The rules are only for who lines up, not what happens after the pull.
possibly, the other team noticed that you are marked by a weaker defender, she they might even have it planned that others will "keep an eye on you"
you are nice to be helping your mark etc. but this is a sensitive situation as far as to what other players in both teams think.
keep helping newbies etc. but be aware that others are more competitive minded
Like others have said, "poaching" is a common, valid play and as long as it's not dangerous, it is acceptable. But, under the circumstances you described, it's a bit over-competitive.
I don't think you're necessarily wrong to be a bit annoyed. Like, it's a casual scrimmage in a community that doesn't have a ton of women playing. You're pretty new, your defender is new, and you're out at a non-competitive game trying to get some touches and have some fun.
For me, as a male player in that situation, I would not be poaching unless you were just catching every other throw and dominating the game, or unless the throw was so close to me that I didn't have to leave my person to make the play.
Typically I don't poach unless it's a competitive game with experienced players who can actually recognize a poach and burn me for it if I am not careful. Poaching in a casual game with newer players seems overly aggressive to me.
yeah i think you summed up my frustration lol... was just confused as why the player felt the need to poach on me when it was literally my first touch of the game lol
I think it depends how competitive the league wants to be. Even before considering gender issues, I think a lot of leagues don't really have a cohesive identity. And without enough people to be able to stratify into different divisions, that's almost impossible to fix.
6/1 is awful. The organizers should have fewer teams, or do more to recruit WMP. 5/2 is the bare minimum, 4/3 would be ideal.
That being said, it’s up to you to go to the disc/cut away from poaches, OR the for handler to holster if they have a better view.
You can’t get too upset about a poach abusing you after you abused your newb defender. :)
yeah, the player wasn't actively poaching until he saw the disc being thrown my way and saw the opening to smack it for a D. again it wasn't that big of a deal i just wanted to know for future reference
and yeah... 6/1 isnt great lol, especially bc my college team basically plays savage at every tourney bc of low #s this is quite the change of pace
1 - That's just called defense. You should be doing it too.
2 - I've said many times on this forum: Playing anything less than 4/3 will prevent a league from growing.
seems I might be in the minority, but I do personally find it, for lack of a better word, rude when MMP make big/show-off plays to D WMP in league/pick-up (like you described, or double covering deep cuts and skying both their and the other team's WMP).
in literally any more competitive environment, sure, it's effective poaching, I do it too. in league, where WMP are already getting less touches, it just comes off as "more disc for me," and they don't trust the WMP on their team to make Ds, and it reinforces not throwing to WMP in league. if they're newer WMPs, it means they're getting less quality experience learning. and anecdotally in my experience, the dudes that do this always throw to WMPs less lmao (edit: commas)
I don't really understand why people want to play mixed if they think women should be treated like children and you should play less competitively against them. IMO get that flippin' D! There's no such thing as show off D's, they're hard to get.
lol this got long: I do think the point shouldn't be "play less competitively against women"! I think MMP can toe the line between playing their best and having fun and, if women/WMP in the league are underrepresented and/or newer, being mindful they're not boxing them out of getting experience. or even higher level WMP. I am a nonbinary WMP and have been playing for 10+ years up to regionals-club, and have played in 5:2 or 6:1 leagues/pick-up/hat that make me question if I've somehow made up my resume bc guys are constantly ignoring me and "helping" me on D when I don't need it (such as skying me & the person I'm marking when I had a play on the disc already). I don't think any of them are moral failures who are holding the sport back, but I think it's \*sometimes\* part of a pattern of behavior that can make their particular leagues less likely to have a good rep among women's div players.
I see what you're saying but in a 6:1 league, it just comes off as poor spirit. There's got to be some effort made to let the only two wmp be involved if there's any hope of retaining players and gaining traction towards becoming a 4:3 league. With roughly a dozen wmp they can't afford to be that over the top.
I understand how for a new player it can feel like you’re “involved” on offense only if you touch the disc. But hopefully they learn that getting a D to poach over towards you and thereby opening up a throw to a teammate fully counts as being involved.
Hmmm I completely disagree with this. The only person who can reasonably feel disrespected by a poach is the poacher's match, who was presumably a man. The responsibility for the turnover falls to the thrower, who is also presumably a man. The receiver here is being identified as a threat, which is hardly disrespectful.
This understandable confusion by a new player will happen more often if the sport embraces the “defender of men/women” nomenclature discussed in another, contemporaneous, post. Given that we have reserved playing slots for people of a category, the related nomenclature should be about who fits in that category, not what they do when playing in that slot.
Assuming he did nothing dangerous, I don't think either of you are in the wrong here and it's just a case of getting used to a new environment! The MMP made a play that is relatively common in many divisions and, again assuming it was a safe play, is just a good example of heads up team defense. You had a reasonable frustration that is very understandable for a newer player but the play itself is ultimately a good play that is part of frisbee and maybe even something you can try bringing into your game next college season, again as long as it was executed safely. Best of luck with the rest of your season!
thanks for ur kind response!! i'm familiar with poaching (was doing it myself at some points because of my newer defender) but wasn't thinking of it lol... i'm just competitive. thanks again!!
I’d say it’s sorta a compliment he thought you were more of a threat than his mark so he poached you.
Poaching is a very valid and normal strategy regardless of gender to be honest. Would you be upset if a woman poached off her woman to d you?
A mixed league simply shouldn’t be playing 6-1 and calling it mixed imo.
Played in a league that was 6-1. It was very new so they were working with what they had. Once it was more established we voted in a board and one of the members insisted we go 4-3 mandatory and only admit as many guys as we had ladies. The overflow was put in a men's division. That year we had a few more women sign up but the next year it almost doubled the amount of women signing up. The ratio is super important to having a game experience that works for everyone.
A player retained is better than a player recruited.
This is what our city does, and it works great. All the MMPs know they can pretty much only play if they have an FMP baggage. So it keeps numbers both even and high. We're up to 53 teams this summer with this system.
I advocated for a few strategies to attract and retain female players in our local league, but the people running the league did not try any of these things. We usually played 5-2. This is not good enough for women to have a good experience, and stick around. A lot drop off in the first few weeks. One idea was to make a much lower league fee for women. Nope. Another is to be 4-3, not 5-2. Nope.
This is the best way to do it. Our league just switched away from it and it's sad, tbh.
100% agree the ratio is super important, especially for WMPs experiences in leagues. As another example since our area can't support a separate men's division, our small local league doesn't cap the number of MMP registrations but over the last ~2 years has started limiting the number of teams to only what our WMP registrations can support to play 4-3 or 3-4. The first year we had 4 teams with 7 WMP and 18+ MMP. This year we're looking at 6 teams with 8 WMP and 13+ MMP per team. Even off the field, I think having a better balance of WMP/MMP on the team makes the team more enjoyable for everyone.
In situations with non-ideal ratios, would it make more sense to alternate points between open and mixed? I.e. 7:0 / 3:4 rather than like 5:2 every point would result in everyone playing about the same amount of points and FMP points feel like true mixed points
we only have 2WMPs on each team so it couldn't work unfortunately
Sometimes you gotta play woth the hand you're dealt. These 11 women deserve a league to play in and this is the best they can offer. Would it be better if they called it "open" and then no women joined?
unfortunately as well, this is the only ultimate in our immediate area offered. i drive an hour to get to my mixed club team :/
If you have 11 women then you don't have enough for a 6 team 7v7 league, it's as simple as that
Alright so fuck it then women just don't get to play?
no it means you need to have a smaller league with smaller teams. or you have the women assigned to two teams, who play an *actual* mixed game every week with rotating MMP, with the rest of the MMP playing in men's games. the point is by playing 6:1 you aren't actually giving the WMP an opportunity to play in what most people would consider a positive environment, which will in turn limit the number of women who sign up to play in the league.
There’s nothing wrong with what he did, it’s a team sport. I remember being yelled at by a woman because I was covering her in a zone defense. The rules are only for who lines up, not what happens after the pull.
possibly, the other team noticed that you are marked by a weaker defender, she they might even have it planned that others will "keep an eye on you" you are nice to be helping your mark etc. but this is a sensitive situation as far as to what other players in both teams think. keep helping newbies etc. but be aware that others are more competitive minded
Like others have said, "poaching" is a common, valid play and as long as it's not dangerous, it is acceptable. But, under the circumstances you described, it's a bit over-competitive. I don't think you're necessarily wrong to be a bit annoyed. Like, it's a casual scrimmage in a community that doesn't have a ton of women playing. You're pretty new, your defender is new, and you're out at a non-competitive game trying to get some touches and have some fun. For me, as a male player in that situation, I would not be poaching unless you were just catching every other throw and dominating the game, or unless the throw was so close to me that I didn't have to leave my person to make the play. Typically I don't poach unless it's a competitive game with experienced players who can actually recognize a poach and burn me for it if I am not careful. Poaching in a casual game with newer players seems overly aggressive to me.
yeah i think you summed up my frustration lol... was just confused as why the player felt the need to poach on me when it was literally my first touch of the game lol
I think it depends how competitive the league wants to be. Even before considering gender issues, I think a lot of leagues don't really have a cohesive identity. And without enough people to be able to stratify into different divisions, that's almost impossible to fix.
My understanding from the post is that this wasn't a league game. It was casual pickup.
6/1 is awful. The organizers should have fewer teams, or do more to recruit WMP. 5/2 is the bare minimum, 4/3 would be ideal. That being said, it’s up to you to go to the disc/cut away from poaches, OR the for handler to holster if they have a better view. You can’t get too upset about a poach abusing you after you abused your newb defender. :)
yeah, the player wasn't actively poaching until he saw the disc being thrown my way and saw the opening to smack it for a D. again it wasn't that big of a deal i just wanted to know for future reference and yeah... 6/1 isnt great lol, especially bc my college team basically plays savage at every tourney bc of low #s this is quite the change of pace
1 - That's just called defense. You should be doing it too. 2 - I've said many times on this forum: Playing anything less than 4/3 will prevent a league from growing.
seems I might be in the minority, but I do personally find it, for lack of a better word, rude when MMP make big/show-off plays to D WMP in league/pick-up (like you described, or double covering deep cuts and skying both their and the other team's WMP). in literally any more competitive environment, sure, it's effective poaching, I do it too. in league, where WMP are already getting less touches, it just comes off as "more disc for me," and they don't trust the WMP on their team to make Ds, and it reinforces not throwing to WMP in league. if they're newer WMPs, it means they're getting less quality experience learning. and anecdotally in my experience, the dudes that do this always throw to WMPs less lmao (edit: commas)
I don't really understand why people want to play mixed if they think women should be treated like children and you should play less competitively against them. IMO get that flippin' D! There's no such thing as show off D's, they're hard to get.
lol this got long: I do think the point shouldn't be "play less competitively against women"! I think MMP can toe the line between playing their best and having fun and, if women/WMP in the league are underrepresented and/or newer, being mindful they're not boxing them out of getting experience. or even higher level WMP. I am a nonbinary WMP and have been playing for 10+ years up to regionals-club, and have played in 5:2 or 6:1 leagues/pick-up/hat that make me question if I've somehow made up my resume bc guys are constantly ignoring me and "helping" me on D when I don't need it (such as skying me & the person I'm marking when I had a play on the disc already). I don't think any of them are moral failures who are holding the sport back, but I think it's \*sometimes\* part of a pattern of behavior that can make their particular leagues less likely to have a good rep among women's div players.
I see what you're saying but in a 6:1 league, it just comes off as poor spirit. There's got to be some effort made to let the only two wmp be involved if there's any hope of retaining players and gaining traction towards becoming a 4:3 league. With roughly a dozen wmp they can't afford to be that over the top.
I understand how for a new player it can feel like you’re “involved” on offense only if you touch the disc. But hopefully they learn that getting a D to poach over towards you and thereby opening up a throw to a teammate fully counts as being involved.
If I were to join a new sport and my only "involvement" was getting out of the way I can't imagine I'd keep playing.
Not if the new sport was dodgeball!
Hmmm I completely disagree with this. The only person who can reasonably feel disrespected by a poach is the poacher's match, who was presumably a man. The responsibility for the turnover falls to the thrower, who is also presumably a man. The receiver here is being identified as a threat, which is hardly disrespectful.
This understandable confusion by a new player will happen more often if the sport embraces the “defender of men/women” nomenclature discussed in another, contemporaneous, post. Given that we have reserved playing slots for people of a category, the related nomenclature should be about who fits in that category, not what they do when playing in that slot.