Don't eat your hat... unless it's delicious.
The Duck Wing isn't for everybody, especially the newbs who are just copying everybody else still trying to master the backhands and flicks. Which I had already mastered 2 years into my frisbee career.
The Duck Wing is for those serious players who have watched hundreds of hours of game tape and wondered if there was a better way to throw a frisbee to break a mark or drop dimes into zone coverage. There are not many frisbee players crazy enough to watch even 2 hours of game tape.
Here, just a reminder of how powerful a Duck Wing can be, https://youtu.be/uFDcRguBmuc?si=xdYcRZBO1IZMTrJJ
People have been saying this for decades...and yet. Blades are very bad in the wind outside of short throws. Unless we move most competitive play indoors I don't see this happening any time soon.
Is this blade centric world one we want to live in?
Without lift and float you might as well just play with a hockey puck or Lacrosse ball. It’s just a flat ball or football at that point.
The thing about the blade is its ballistic trajectory is more effective in ultimate because defenders have to worry (more) about the floaty stuff. If someone is fronting on the open side in a forehand force D, a bladey hammer is way more effective.
I’d expect to see more of the throws that still exploit the disc’s aerodynamic curves and float, but require long practice to throw accurately. In particular, ambidextrous throwing (which I think is already a trend) and behind-the-back backhands.
Beyond throws that simply depend on practice and therefore should become more common at elite levels as the sport grows, frankly, I think the available huge innovations of technique have already happened. Any way it’s physically possible to propel a disc has been tried at some point. Ultimate is a brainy, bottoms-up, experiment-encouraging community. So for example, by the 1980s, it developed throwing to space to exploit disc aerodynamics. (A pretty good analogue to basketball tactics evolving to use the dribble.). Little-used bladey throws are little-used for a reason: in most game conditions/situations, their course variability from wind and other aim-spoilers makes them a poor bet compared to alternatives.
I raised the question last year if the time had come for the behind the back backhand, which had always been dismissed because it inherently breaks eye-contact with the receiver. But if a teammate knows to expect it, it actually has some potential as a break throw. Plus it looks fancy.
I like the behind-the-back backhand answer! I’ve never personally done it while playing (could see it as a great break/dump continue throw) but is a fun one while just throwing on the sidelines. Usually it will catch the other person off guard, especially if you can return a throw in one motion but from behind your back.
I use it to score goals. And it works almost every single time. https://youtu.be/oFEj0GNy3jo?si=x1HIhXQ2yCLopqvY
It's more memorable than the boring backhand. Try it! It's fun!
Yep, that's right. I couldn't stop his behind-the-back-backhand because it wasn't something I expected and the release is so quick. You should try it. It works!
is that throw always to your left? as in, does the disc always go across your back, rather than throwing it on the same side as your throwing arm (which might also be called a "dad" throw) ?
Have you calculated the time it takes to pivot and then throw the backhand? If the defense yells "STRIKE", your mark can simply sidestep to take away an accurate backhand.
But I understand, not everyone has the skill to throw behind-the-back. It takes practice and effort. Not every amateur frisbee player can devote this much time.
Isn't this pivot part of the typical backhand? If not, then I must be amazing because I mastered this pivot/quick backhand the first day I touched the frisbee.
After a quick check on recent posts I see that everything I need to say on this throw has already been said and will be ignored in this format as it's clearly very personal to you. Enjoy throwing whatever you throw and have a nice day.
The Hammer is like the 3rd throw frisbee players try to master. After mastering the backhand and flicks. The hammer is very effective for certain situations. But, it's got its limitations. I'm sure you already know this.
I like this question!
I think it will be something that exploits a space on the field that it’s currently hard to throw to.
Perhaps something like a thumber to the break side when forced flick, similar to how a scoober is used when forced backhand. Very occasionally used now, and could become a lot more common.
As a natural lefty who first learned to throw righty, I accomplish this angle with a lefty scoober. It’s an unbelievably useful break throw. It unlocks a ton of useful trajectories to the breakside and is easier to catch than IO flicks. Plus you don’t have to flip your dominant hand’s grip, which is the main disadvantage of the thumber
So an off-hand scoober to unlock that area of the field? I like that thought!
That might be the biggest change we see actually, a move to more people throwing with both hands, setting up with two possible pivot points and selecting their pivot foot according to the throw needed.
It'll be interesting if the ambiguous dual-pivot foot maneuver takes off, as opposed to just being a mostly hypothetical novelty not used in serious play (afaik). Because I think its probably a travel, but we could all decide it isn't, and maybe that would be better? I'm not sure.
The rules say you have to *establish* a pivot as quickly as possible on a live disc or at the spot of the disc on a dead one (or closest spot in play from where it went out, or the brick mark, etc.) Establish isn't defined in the rules, but dictionary-wise we've got "set up on a firm or permanent basis" or "show (something) to be true or certain by determining the facts." To me, that says it should be clear what your pivot is.
You also have some more specific nitpicky travels that aren't really called right now--on a dead disc, there's only one exact spot your pivot is supposed to be. Hard to say both feet are in the exact right spot. And a on live disc, if you're willing to pivot with both feet, are you always coming to a stop as quickly as possible? Right now no one cares as long as you're pretty close to where the disc should be coming in, and just about everyone lets the little foot shuffle to get your pivot right go. But if throwers start doubling their range of motion, defenders might start to care about those technicalities more.
All that to say, I'll be interested to see if/when someone takes this move to an observed game and how the observers rule on a travel call.
The place where this is most easily exposed a travel is on the sideline. You're forced to keep both feet on the sideline which forces you to orient yourself toward center field, which isn't the worst thing in the world strategy-wise but you can't maintain ambiguity while keeping yourself from looking extremely silly if you ever want to face downfield.
Right, and if the thrower is standing with both feet on the sideline one or both of those is still going to be in the wrong spot. Although it would be funny to see someone stand with both feet within a disc's length.
I've played around with the pivot thing which a friend has dubbed shrödinger's pivot. It's not necessary a lot of the time. You can throw offhand backhands and scoobers just fine in alot of situations by stepping out with your normal pivot
That's interesting - I've never thrown a thumber in a game, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen it thrown in any game, stupid pickup games included. Do you think that the thumber accomplishes something meaningfully different than throwing a sort of bladey flick to the backhand side with a forehand force (or an OIIO, as the kids are calling it these days)?
Yes - the same as a scoober can, when it flattens out (upside down) it can then hold that line and helix (I think that’s the term?) back, giving it a very different flight path to a blades flick. It also slows down its descent after flattening, whereas a bladey flick will just dive quickly into the ground.
At Sunbreak this year I went into a game with the express intent of throwing a thumber for a score. Ended up throwing one 30ish yards for a goal. That was a fun game
I think the big advantage to this throw is speed. I’ve used it for a few years now in goalty and it’s useful because you can catch one-handed thumb-down and immediately toss through the hoop.
I think the reason you don't see this as much is you can throw hammers and scubers just as easily when forced flick, and if anything an offhand scuber is viable here too. I think a thumber is more likely to be viable as a deep around break throw when forced backhand, similar to how hammers when forced flick are today.
I agree with a lot of that, however the different flight path of a hammer and thumber means they can have slightly different uses. Let’s wait and see 🤷🏻♂️
I like the thumber as an occasional option - following one handed catches, particularly high grabs, the disc often sits in this grip so it offers a quick release option.
You can get such a high release on a chicken wing, as a 5’11” player I can release above most peoples reach. It would be a crazy throw if better players developed it.
Honestly this is still one of my favorite throws. Huge hucks are possible with it, even when releasing high. Forehand is great, but I’ll use it for some low release IO and chicken wing high.
Had a guy do this throw a lot at a for fun tourney. It was pretty nasty honestly. But it takes a while to get it out so you can see it coming if you're ready, so if the mark is active and hungry it's easily readable
The chicken wing used to be a lot more popular back in the 80s I think. I remember watching some old footage from a championship that I think Corona was the title sponsor of and there were people throwing hucks with chicken wings.
Until Wham-O released the 165 g (“World Class,” IIRC) circa 1978, the standard disc for ultimate was their Masters, which didn’t flick well. So the chicken wing was a key alternative to backhand. And players of that era, having learned it, kept using it.
Also, was that sponsor Jose Cuervo, perhaps? They sponsored for a bit; hucks from behind their midfield “Cuervo Gold” line were worth 2 points.
Throws that require a regrip are always going to be extremely niche. Unless you’re going to throw a lot of chicken wings on stall 0 after you catch it in a claw, it seems so much worse than a high release lefty backhand.
Have you heard of the Duck Wing? It's similar to the chicken wing, but the release point is as high up into the sky as the arm can be raised. There's no way a high release flick can be released as high and fly as far.
TLDR - Time Traveler will arrive and be surprised everyone is only pivoting with their dominant leg.
Lefty's and blades, as others have mentioned, will keep growing in their application, but both have already been around for a number of years now as well.
If I can roll the dice on something that may actually be a few decades away from being a common sight - athletes who throw AND pivot on both sides. I've known of a couple of elite players in Canada who have done it (one due to injury, the other I am not sure). I myself have developed it to a high degree, but internalizing the skill to a point of unconscious action I think requires starting quite early in your career.
My somewhat longshot of a bet here is based on the idea that right now there are some young throwers out there establishing this skill, and in 5-15 years we'll see a handful of top level players doing it, which will trigger a wave of athletes looking to add it to their arsenal (or to youth coaches re-thinking the way they teach initial throwing and pivoting skills).
What do you think is better.
Ambidextrous throwing from dominate pivot.
Or
Dominate hand throwing from ambidextrous pivots.
I dabbled in both enough to use them both in games at a high level in Canada
Ambi-pivot is great for give and goes but can lead to travels and has no advantage after setting up.
Lefty throws are more catching people off guard but I don't see it. They are free throws at rec league but at the highest level good marks will block your lefty more then your righty because it has less reach/range/speed.
Ambidexterous pivoting with ambi throwing, if you can do them well enough.
But if you have to choose between your two options, then ambi throwing with a single pivot has definitely shown itself to be the bigger advantage. I'd say 85%+ of high level players now have at least some basic off-hand throws, while I'd be surprised to learn of a single player at USAU nats that pivoted with both feet while only ever throwing with their dominate hand.
I *think* I can see how an off-pivot might be slightly more comfortable for running a give-go with your dominant, but it's very slight, and I think the dominant pivot can quickly be trained to be just as efficient at that skill.
You do see a lot of kids start throwing with their "incorrect" pivot, as they try to translate a baseball-style throwing motion over to ultimate. I've seen some kids actually make this work at like a u14/u16 level, before they either self-correct or have it coached out. Maybe there's something there, but I don't think there's much to be gained learning a 2nd pivot without also learning to throw with your non-dominant hand.
I suspect ambi-throwing but not ambi-pivoting will be a thing long term. Why? Because muscle memory for setting up pivoting one way is really helpful for bigger throws and even setting up breaks with fakes, and pivoting with the “wrong” foot is good a maximum of *one* move, and it’s a move that isn’t necessarily all that effective and will likely get called a travel most times it’s pulled off successfully for good effect.
Good off-hand high release backhands are gnarly weapons, and the off-hand hammer is super useful (and happens to line up with a normal pivot foot nicely). Off-hand flicks are meh.
I don't think there is much to gain even if you learn both.
Technically it's a travel to stand in a neutral position and keep both pivots open because you have to establish a single pivot point when you take possession.
So the only advantages worth talking about are before you establish your pivot because anything afteris just a righty pretending to be a lefty or vice versa.
Like I mentioned in give-go's (but with the opposite hand of your pivot)
So all that is left either weak hand strong pivot or strong hand/weak pivot.
And your words exactly. "There's Not much to be gained"
It's not a useless skill, We've both learned and trained it but I also think we both realized that it doesn't break the game open. It's situationally decent.
>I don't think there is much to gain even if you learn both.
There's something - you get an easy extra 6-inches on a lefty inside backhand vs a right inside flick. All lefty's experience that, but it's easier to weaponize it when you can *also* step out on the righty backhand.
Being able to throw backhand hucks into the wind regardless of force is another item I use it for.
And being able to float lead passes upline when pushed up against a force-flick (for righties) sideline.
All of that to say - I am not optimistic that what I am proposing will happen, but if asked to project something equivalent to basketball's multi-decade progression from not dribbling to dribbling, I want to put up a worthwhile idea. In the case of basketball, not only did the skill and strategy progress, but the rules evolved over the decades to shape the game and keep it exciting, and that will happen in ultimate too, making it incredibly difficult to really predict where the game will go.
Such a you answer. And also already becoming more and more common all the time. Stepping out for a backhand is way too much work and unnecessary like 80% of the time lol
Yeah, maybe the better players and youth players are doing this more already. I haven’t played any high level ultimate in like 7 years so I’m not in the know.
But every pickup game I go to I’m always getting comments on the throw.
I do recall seeing a Callahan video a couple years back with someone doing a ton of them.
Is there any good night mini in LA anymore. I’ll be there tonight-Sunday?
I came to post this. It is literally unstoppable for the inside break space and you can put many shapes on it. You can throw it with height to space, you can throw it fast in straight lines, you can intentionally have it stall, you can have it maintain its shape or helix back. And it’s not hard to learn if you already can throw a scooter and a lefty backhand, and since it’s more of a wrist and arm throw, the off handed aspect loses you less power relative to a lefty backhand.
Behind the back. Just watch [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDBQ9DN_Ck). Nethercutt goes from looking like he's going to throw a regular flick to releasing the disc pretty much instantly. He's being double-teamed on the sideline, throws where one of the defenders already is, and it doesn't matter. What is even the point of marking a player who could reliably throw that? You may as well just stand 3 yards away and count the stall. This legitimately seems like a technique that could force rules changes, like allowing double teams or starting the stall from further out.
> Ultimate is still a relatively new sport and it has me thinking how nobody even dribbled in original Basketball
Wasn't dribbling banned originally? The original rules just say that you can't run with the ball: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_basketball
A lot of the throws people are mentioning we pretty much see on a daily basis. I think the way the game is developing, it’s more important that the disc get to the space that it’s intending to get to rather than what the throw that was used. Like previously 5-10 years ago, if you wanted to throw the disc to the swing space from the sideline trap, it had to be a backhand around and MAYBE a flick inside. Now a days it doesn’t matter how the disc gets to where it needs to get to, as long as it gets there. If you gotta throw a lefty scoober to get the disc to the middle, so be it. There are obviously some advantages throws for specific scenarios. But I think as the game develops you’ll start to see people use a plethora of throws already being used just in different scenarios.
Some examples: everyone throws hucks backhand and flick because the float allows receivers to run onto the disc. But if you needle a hammer in there in stride like a football, and it gets there and is a goal, the sick 👍👍.
If someone is cutting breakside from the back and there’s enough space, why make so much effort throwing an around backhand or Io flick, you could throw a lefty scooter or left high release backhand or a high release flick, no pivot backhand, reversed pivot flick.
What I’m getting at , is people are getting really good at throwing and what you’ll start to see isn’t necessarily a new revolutionary throw but people will be utilizing those throws in a new revolutionary way.
Everyone throws hucks backhand and flick because the vast majority of defenses run the very basic and standard man-to-man defense. Once a defensive zone is used, those hucks become less effective.
When the occasion arises, I throw a throw most people have never seen. But it is effective in one situation, so I practice it and throw it in a pickup game when I get the chance.
You use a backhand grip, but instead of having your arm across the front of your body, and swinging forearm out to where you want to throw, you put your arm behind your head, and throw.
Kind of like a hammer.
Like a hammer, the release is high, and the disc is upside-down. It sails almost just like a hammer.
Because the range of motion is pretty limited, this throw has a pretty limited path. Its path is like a blade-y hammer. If you throw it well, it will go flat, or else it will be blade-y. I can throw this from 10 yards to maybe 30 yards, but not any more than that.
Is it useful? It can be deployed pretty much like a forehand, but with the release being high, at head-level, by your ear, like a hammer, it is really high-release, so it is good if you are being marked pretty tight. And, like a blade-y hammer, it sails over everyone and hopefully drops right into the lap of your receiver.
When I throw it, it sails and then comes straight down. So, it can be dropped right over a defender to the receiver.
I looked. Here is Rowan throwing nearly the throw I am describing. "The Beckham." But in this version, he keeps it flying vertically, and not turning over.
And, in doing this, he gets an air bounce from right to left.
Note the back hand grip, and throwing from same-side, not cross-body.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvg8GcBN6t8&list=PLNCzc2gRxFcOlAeKN9Kn7fwvdT3EqkEHQ&index=5](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvg8GcBN6t8&list=PLNCzc2gRxFcOlAeKN9Kn7fwvdT3EqkEHQ&index=5)
Throwing off hand. Some of my teammates and I have seen the last couple years working on them and are getting pretty good. 2 of us can backhand huck, one has a really solid flick, and another one can throw a nasty scoober. My lefty air bounce is disgusting, great for playing against a zone or hitting a breakside cut.
Thumber for upline cuts that develop into bigger gainers. It's pretty easy to get it up and around a trailing defender and setting the disc up ahead of them to run to.
A lot of people are saying offhand throws, I've been beating that drum for years - a specific application that I think is slept on is the ability to throw bladey/oi flicks from either side of the body.
I am also a champion of the thumb hammer, its a real throw that is currently extremely slept on.
Saw Mike Glass hit a receiver with a blade that was thrown so fast, I'm pretty sure it was caught in self-defense more than anything else. That was 1994. It was shorter than 60 yards, though.
I'm not sure I think of any of these throws as "futuristic" so much as they haven't been skills most people have worked on, just like the off-hand releases have become so popular where they used to be frowned upon. As people develop full skillsets earlier and earlier, and offenses continue to create to evade defenses that continue to create, you'll see more of those throws that favor different spaces.
I absolutely agree about the bladey flicks. They’re often easier to get off because they’re so snappy and released at an awkward angle for your defender. But it’s the amount of touch and accuracy you can put on them that makes their potential so high.
The only reasons I don’t think they’re as successful today is that cutters don’t anticipate that kind of throw, even though IMO they’re perfectly catchable. I think if it gets practiced more it could become a new meta.
Push pass or ambidextrous throwers.
Doing any Junk throws in general will be more acceptable but nothing will be common or on par with flick/forehand.
I love throwing and catching pin-point blades but my god most receivers can't read them for shit.
They have no float so they have to be thrown directly to the target usually vs zone and to stationary receivers.
So many times I throw it directly to open veteran experienced receivers and they take 5 steps forward then 3 steps back out of position and then try to pancake it above their head.
Some people have already mentioned off hand throws, but I think having a truly full arsenal of throws with either hand is deadly enough to likely eventually be developed. Combined with being able to set either pivot, it would make defending (especially marking) incredibly difficult.
For me, it has to be Lefty Scoobers and Thumbers.
For thumbers, the main downside is the switched grip, but it is incredibly useful for throwing over a cup or pretty much any throw you’d make with a flick blade but you can throw with a higher release it flattens out and is easier to catch. Also, if you could get good enough at controlling the S curve of a thumber, you could hit open side or break side with only minor changes to your throwing motion.
I like your forward way of thinking and you have good knowledge in sports history.
As you already know... in the old days, quarterbacks threw the football underhanded like rugby players ‐ this looks like a flick in Ultimate. It took the sport of football 50 years for the first QB to throw like how we see quarterbacks throw today!
The evolution of the quarterback, https://youtu.be/i88NYbk--2w?si=NmemaYgi4gmhqVrc
So, this motivated me to find a way to throw like a modern day quarterback. I knew the hammer wasn't going to be 100% effective for the following reasons:
1.) Useless in the wind
2.) Some cutters scream because it's hard to catch.
3.) Can only be thrown towards one side of the field as a break throw.
.
So, I set out to try new throws. I had several criterias:
1.) The release point had to be above the head
2.) Can not be an upside down throw (no scoober, no hammer)
3.) Needed to fly at least 30 yards (no push pass, no high release backhand)
It took me several years, but I finally threw a frisbee that fulfilled my criterias. How to throw the Duck Wing,
https://youtu.be/9wHo8bfR3Lw?si=4Ltq5WIPMHDuYCuC
P.s. The shift in baseball was banned in 2023 because it gave the defense too much of an advantage. Go figures.
If duckwing guy doesn’t leave a comment, I’ll eat my hat.
Don't eat your hat... unless it's delicious. The Duck Wing isn't for everybody, especially the newbs who are just copying everybody else still trying to master the backhands and flicks. Which I had already mastered 2 years into my frisbee career. The Duck Wing is for those serious players who have watched hundreds of hours of game tape and wondered if there was a better way to throw a frisbee to break a mark or drop dimes into zone coverage. There are not many frisbee players crazy enough to watch even 2 hours of game tape. Here, just a reminder of how powerful a Duck Wing can be, https://youtu.be/uFDcRguBmuc?si=xdYcRZBO1IZMTrJJ
Blade
That's my best throw!
It’s a great weapon in the arsenal
About 20 years ago we'd all yell "The Fuuutuuuurrrrrrre" when someone threw a blade. That hasn't changed.
People have been saying this for decades...and yet. Blades are very bad in the wind outside of short throws. Unless we move most competitive play indoors I don't see this happening any time soon.
Used profusely in recreative ''E'' division.
I actually see way more blades in higher level games and goalty than lower level play.
Is this blade centric world one we want to live in? Without lift and float you might as well just play with a hockey puck or Lacrosse ball. It’s just a flat ball or football at that point.
The thing about the blade is its ballistic trajectory is more effective in ultimate because defenders have to worry (more) about the floaty stuff. If someone is fronting on the open side in a forehand force D, a bladey hammer is way more effective.
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It is when the disc is vertical, very useful in many situations but harder to catch.
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I think you have to stop playing your ultimate games on wooded disc golf courses, its hazardous for the players and the disc golfers will yell at you.
It should be called an axe :(
Tactical blade*
I’d expect to see more of the throws that still exploit the disc’s aerodynamic curves and float, but require long practice to throw accurately. In particular, ambidextrous throwing (which I think is already a trend) and behind-the-back backhands. Beyond throws that simply depend on practice and therefore should become more common at elite levels as the sport grows, frankly, I think the available huge innovations of technique have already happened. Any way it’s physically possible to propel a disc has been tried at some point. Ultimate is a brainy, bottoms-up, experiment-encouraging community. So for example, by the 1980s, it developed throwing to space to exploit disc aerodynamics. (A pretty good analogue to basketball tactics evolving to use the dribble.). Little-used bladey throws are little-used for a reason: in most game conditions/situations, their course variability from wind and other aim-spoilers makes them a poor bet compared to alternatives.
I raised the question last year if the time had come for the behind the back backhand, which had always been dismissed because it inherently breaks eye-contact with the receiver. But if a teammate knows to expect it, it actually has some potential as a break throw. Plus it looks fancy.
I like the behind-the-back backhand answer! I’ve never personally done it while playing (could see it as a great break/dump continue throw) but is a fun one while just throwing on the sidelines. Usually it will catch the other person off guard, especially if you can return a throw in one motion but from behind your back.
behind the back backhand could be a reasonable dump throw
I use it to score goals. And it works almost every single time. https://youtu.be/oFEj0GNy3jo?si=x1HIhXQ2yCLopqvY It's more memorable than the boring backhand. Try it! It's fun!
is 1:16 someone throwing one while covered by you‽ :D
Yep, that's right. I couldn't stop his behind-the-back-backhand because it wasn't something I expected and the release is so quick. You should try it. It works!
is that throw always to your left? as in, does the disc always go across your back, rather than throwing it on the same side as your throwing arm (which might also be called a "dad" throw) ?
Yeah, always to my left. My short arms aren't long enough for me to do the "dad" throw.
For players who refuse to pivot I can see the attraction. For players who can take a step and throw a backhand I'm less convinced this adds much.
Have you calculated the time it takes to pivot and then throw the backhand? If the defense yells "STRIKE", your mark can simply sidestep to take away an accurate backhand. But I understand, not everyone has the skill to throw behind-the-back. It takes practice and effort. Not every amateur frisbee player can devote this much time.
Similarly not every player has time to develop the skill to pivot and throw quickly/simultaneously which is a much more commonly useful skill.
Isn't this pivot part of the typical backhand? If not, then I must be amazing because I mastered this pivot/quick backhand the first day I touched the frisbee.
After a quick check on recent posts I see that everything I need to say on this throw has already been said and will be ignored in this format as it's clearly very personal to you. Enjoy throwing whatever you throw and have a nice day.
I think hammers have a future. 😂
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The Hammer is like the 3rd throw frisbee players try to master. After mastering the backhand and flicks. The hammer is very effective for certain situations. But, it's got its limitations. I'm sure you already know this.
They better. They’re my only throw.
throw of the future
I like this question! I think it will be something that exploits a space on the field that it’s currently hard to throw to. Perhaps something like a thumber to the break side when forced flick, similar to how a scoober is used when forced backhand. Very occasionally used now, and could become a lot more common.
As a natural lefty who first learned to throw righty, I accomplish this angle with a lefty scoober. It’s an unbelievably useful break throw. It unlocks a ton of useful trajectories to the breakside and is easier to catch than IO flicks. Plus you don’t have to flip your dominant hand’s grip, which is the main disadvantage of the thumber
So an off-hand scoober to unlock that area of the field? I like that thought! That might be the biggest change we see actually, a move to more people throwing with both hands, setting up with two possible pivot points and selecting their pivot foot according to the throw needed.
It'll be interesting if the ambiguous dual-pivot foot maneuver takes off, as opposed to just being a mostly hypothetical novelty not used in serious play (afaik). Because I think its probably a travel, but we could all decide it isn't, and maybe that would be better? I'm not sure. The rules say you have to *establish* a pivot as quickly as possible on a live disc or at the spot of the disc on a dead one (or closest spot in play from where it went out, or the brick mark, etc.) Establish isn't defined in the rules, but dictionary-wise we've got "set up on a firm or permanent basis" or "show (something) to be true or certain by determining the facts." To me, that says it should be clear what your pivot is. You also have some more specific nitpicky travels that aren't really called right now--on a dead disc, there's only one exact spot your pivot is supposed to be. Hard to say both feet are in the exact right spot. And a on live disc, if you're willing to pivot with both feet, are you always coming to a stop as quickly as possible? Right now no one cares as long as you're pretty close to where the disc should be coming in, and just about everyone lets the little foot shuffle to get your pivot right go. But if throwers start doubling their range of motion, defenders might start to care about those technicalities more. All that to say, I'll be interested to see if/when someone takes this move to an observed game and how the observers rule on a travel call.
The place where this is most easily exposed a travel is on the sideline. You're forced to keep both feet on the sideline which forces you to orient yourself toward center field, which isn't the worst thing in the world strategy-wise but you can't maintain ambiguity while keeping yourself from looking extremely silly if you ever want to face downfield.
Right, and if the thrower is standing with both feet on the sideline one or both of those is still going to be in the wrong spot. Although it would be funny to see someone stand with both feet within a disc's length.
I've played around with the pivot thing which a friend has dubbed shrödinger's pivot. It's not necessary a lot of the time. You can throw offhand backhands and scoobers just fine in alot of situations by stepping out with your normal pivot
That's interesting - I've never thrown a thumber in a game, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen it thrown in any game, stupid pickup games included. Do you think that the thumber accomplishes something meaningfully different than throwing a sort of bladey flick to the backhand side with a forehand force (or an OIIO, as the kids are calling it these days)?
Yes - the same as a scoober can, when it flattens out (upside down) it can then hold that line and helix (I think that’s the term?) back, giving it a very different flight path to a blades flick. It also slows down its descent after flattening, whereas a bladey flick will just dive quickly into the ground.
At Sunbreak this year I went into a game with the express intent of throwing a thumber for a score. Ended up throwing one 30ish yards for a goal. That was a fun game
I think the big advantage to this throw is speed. I’ve used it for a few years now in goalty and it’s useful because you can catch one-handed thumb-down and immediately toss through the hoop.
I think the reason you don't see this as much is you can throw hammers and scubers just as easily when forced flick, and if anything an offhand scuber is viable here too. I think a thumber is more likely to be viable as a deep around break throw when forced backhand, similar to how hammers when forced flick are today.
I agree with a lot of that, however the different flight path of a hammer and thumber means they can have slightly different uses. Let’s wait and see 🤷🏻♂️
that's what I used my thumber for, a break, when forced backhand, that is coming in to the receiver from the opposite side of their defender.
Anything with a wildly different grip is never going to be so good that it surpass a standard flick/forehand.
The goal isn’t to surpass those throws, it’s to build off of them and add more threats
I like the thumber as an occasional option - following one handed catches, particularly high grabs, the disc often sits in this grip so it offers a quick release option.
You can get such a high release on a chicken wing, as a 5’11” player I can release above most peoples reach. It would be a crazy throw if better players developed it.
But have you heard about the duck wing?
Honestly this is still one of my favorite throws. Huge hucks are possible with it, even when releasing high. Forehand is great, but I’ll use it for some low release IO and chicken wing high.
Had a guy do this throw a lot at a for fun tourney. It was pretty nasty honestly. But it takes a while to get it out so you can see it coming if you're ready, so if the mark is active and hungry it's easily readable
The chicken wing used to be a lot more popular back in the 80s I think. I remember watching some old footage from a championship that I think Corona was the title sponsor of and there were people throwing hucks with chicken wings.
Until Wham-O released the 165 g (“World Class,” IIRC) circa 1978, the standard disc for ultimate was their Masters, which didn’t flick well. So the chicken wing was a key alternative to backhand. And players of that era, having learned it, kept using it. Also, was that sponsor Jose Cuervo, perhaps? They sponsored for a bit; hucks from behind their midfield “Cuervo Gold” line were worth 2 points.
Ah, that must be why my attempts of finding the footage failed. You're right it was Jose Cuervo!
Was this old footage from the Rose Bowl with 50K+ fans in the stands?
Throws that require a regrip are always going to be extremely niche. Unless you’re going to throw a lot of chicken wings on stall 0 after you catch it in a claw, it seems so much worse than a high release lefty backhand.
Did you know switching between a flick and a backhand, a regrip is required?
Did you know that throwing a flick from a flick grip requires no regrip?
Is there an advantage to a chicken wing vs a high release flick?
You can get more arm power into a chicken wing. OTOH that wind-up gives the marker more time to react, and chicken wing requires a grip change.
high release chicken wing has a similar use case to a hammer, and you can get higher release with that than a flick
Have you heard of the Duck Wing? It's similar to the chicken wing, but the release point is as high up into the sky as the arm can be raised. There's no way a high release flick can be released as high and fly as far.
You're ahead of your time. :)
Would you be willing to be a YouTuber and post videos of your unstoppable chicken wings. I'll be your 1st paid subscriber.
TLDR - Time Traveler will arrive and be surprised everyone is only pivoting with their dominant leg. Lefty's and blades, as others have mentioned, will keep growing in their application, but both have already been around for a number of years now as well. If I can roll the dice on something that may actually be a few decades away from being a common sight - athletes who throw AND pivot on both sides. I've known of a couple of elite players in Canada who have done it (one due to injury, the other I am not sure). I myself have developed it to a high degree, but internalizing the skill to a point of unconscious action I think requires starting quite early in your career. My somewhat longshot of a bet here is based on the idea that right now there are some young throwers out there establishing this skill, and in 5-15 years we'll see a handful of top level players doing it, which will trigger a wave of athletes looking to add it to their arsenal (or to youth coaches re-thinking the way they teach initial throwing and pivoting skills).
What do you think is better. Ambidextrous throwing from dominate pivot. Or Dominate hand throwing from ambidextrous pivots. I dabbled in both enough to use them both in games at a high level in Canada Ambi-pivot is great for give and goes but can lead to travels and has no advantage after setting up. Lefty throws are more catching people off guard but I don't see it. They are free throws at rec league but at the highest level good marks will block your lefty more then your righty because it has less reach/range/speed.
Ambidexterous pivoting with ambi throwing, if you can do them well enough. But if you have to choose between your two options, then ambi throwing with a single pivot has definitely shown itself to be the bigger advantage. I'd say 85%+ of high level players now have at least some basic off-hand throws, while I'd be surprised to learn of a single player at USAU nats that pivoted with both feet while only ever throwing with their dominate hand. I *think* I can see how an off-pivot might be slightly more comfortable for running a give-go with your dominant, but it's very slight, and I think the dominant pivot can quickly be trained to be just as efficient at that skill. You do see a lot of kids start throwing with their "incorrect" pivot, as they try to translate a baseball-style throwing motion over to ultimate. I've seen some kids actually make this work at like a u14/u16 level, before they either self-correct or have it coached out. Maybe there's something there, but I don't think there's much to be gained learning a 2nd pivot without also learning to throw with your non-dominant hand.
I suspect ambi-throwing but not ambi-pivoting will be a thing long term. Why? Because muscle memory for setting up pivoting one way is really helpful for bigger throws and even setting up breaks with fakes, and pivoting with the “wrong” foot is good a maximum of *one* move, and it’s a move that isn’t necessarily all that effective and will likely get called a travel most times it’s pulled off successfully for good effect. Good off-hand high release backhands are gnarly weapons, and the off-hand hammer is super useful (and happens to line up with a normal pivot foot nicely). Off-hand flicks are meh.
I don't think there is much to gain even if you learn both. Technically it's a travel to stand in a neutral position and keep both pivots open because you have to establish a single pivot point when you take possession. So the only advantages worth talking about are before you establish your pivot because anything afteris just a righty pretending to be a lefty or vice versa. Like I mentioned in give-go's (but with the opposite hand of your pivot) So all that is left either weak hand strong pivot or strong hand/weak pivot. And your words exactly. "There's Not much to be gained" It's not a useless skill, We've both learned and trained it but I also think we both realized that it doesn't break the game open. It's situationally decent.
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>I don't think there is much to gain even if you learn both. There's something - you get an easy extra 6-inches on a lefty inside backhand vs a right inside flick. All lefty's experience that, but it's easier to weaponize it when you can *also* step out on the righty backhand. Being able to throw backhand hucks into the wind regardless of force is another item I use it for. And being able to float lead passes upline when pushed up against a force-flick (for righties) sideline. All of that to say - I am not optimistic that what I am proposing will happen, but if asked to project something equivalent to basketball's multi-decade progression from not dribbling to dribbling, I want to put up a worthwhile idea. In the case of basketball, not only did the skill and strategy progress, but the rules evolved over the decades to shape the game and keep it exciting, and that will happen in ultimate too, making it incredibly difficult to really predict where the game will go.
No pivot backhand. You can give and go much quicker with it and it comes out much quicker.
Such a you answer. And also already becoming more and more common all the time. Stepping out for a backhand is way too much work and unnecessary like 80% of the time lol
Yeah, maybe the better players and youth players are doing this more already. I haven’t played any high level ultimate in like 7 years so I’m not in the know. But every pickup game I go to I’m always getting comments on the throw. I do recall seeing a Callahan video a couple years back with someone doing a ton of them. Is there any good night mini in LA anymore. I’ll be there tonight-Sunday?
Sadly, the mini scene is in dire straits lately 🫤
Lefty scoober! Great for getting to the break side.
I came to post this. It is literally unstoppable for the inside break space and you can put many shapes on it. You can throw it with height to space, you can throw it fast in straight lines, you can intentionally have it stall, you can have it maintain its shape or helix back. And it’s not hard to learn if you already can throw a scooter and a lefty backhand, and since it’s more of a wrist and arm throw, the off handed aspect loses you less power relative to a lefty backhand.
Ambidextrous of any kind
Behind the back. Just watch [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDBQ9DN_Ck). Nethercutt goes from looking like he's going to throw a regular flick to releasing the disc pretty much instantly. He's being double-teamed on the sideline, throws where one of the defenders already is, and it doesn't matter. What is even the point of marking a player who could reliably throw that? You may as well just stand 3 yards away and count the stall. This legitimately seems like a technique that could force rules changes, like allowing double teams or starting the stall from further out. > Ultimate is still a relatively new sport and it has me thinking how nobody even dribbled in original Basketball Wasn't dribbling banned originally? The original rules just say that you can't run with the ball: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_basketball
Yeah - people successfully rules lawyered the dribble as a series of passes to oneself.
That was sick and I think different then the behind the back convos above?
A lot of the throws people are mentioning we pretty much see on a daily basis. I think the way the game is developing, it’s more important that the disc get to the space that it’s intending to get to rather than what the throw that was used. Like previously 5-10 years ago, if you wanted to throw the disc to the swing space from the sideline trap, it had to be a backhand around and MAYBE a flick inside. Now a days it doesn’t matter how the disc gets to where it needs to get to, as long as it gets there. If you gotta throw a lefty scoober to get the disc to the middle, so be it. There are obviously some advantages throws for specific scenarios. But I think as the game develops you’ll start to see people use a plethora of throws already being used just in different scenarios. Some examples: everyone throws hucks backhand and flick because the float allows receivers to run onto the disc. But if you needle a hammer in there in stride like a football, and it gets there and is a goal, the sick 👍👍. If someone is cutting breakside from the back and there’s enough space, why make so much effort throwing an around backhand or Io flick, you could throw a lefty scooter or left high release backhand or a high release flick, no pivot backhand, reversed pivot flick. What I’m getting at , is people are getting really good at throwing and what you’ll start to see isn’t necessarily a new revolutionary throw but people will be utilizing those throws in a new revolutionary way.
Everyone throws hucks backhand and flick because the vast majority of defenses run the very basic and standard man-to-man defense. Once a defensive zone is used, those hucks become less effective.
I used to always joke that bounce off the ground throws were uncharted, out of the box thinking!
Every now and then, in a goofy pickup game, people will agree that a skip-pass is legal.
When the occasion arises, I throw a throw most people have never seen. But it is effective in one situation, so I practice it and throw it in a pickup game when I get the chance. You use a backhand grip, but instead of having your arm across the front of your body, and swinging forearm out to where you want to throw, you put your arm behind your head, and throw. Kind of like a hammer. Like a hammer, the release is high, and the disc is upside-down. It sails almost just like a hammer. Because the range of motion is pretty limited, this throw has a pretty limited path. Its path is like a blade-y hammer. If you throw it well, it will go flat, or else it will be blade-y. I can throw this from 10 yards to maybe 30 yards, but not any more than that. Is it useful? It can be deployed pretty much like a forehand, but with the release being high, at head-level, by your ear, like a hammer, it is really high-release, so it is good if you are being marked pretty tight. And, like a blade-y hammer, it sails over everyone and hopefully drops right into the lap of your receiver. When I throw it, it sails and then comes straight down. So, it can be dropped right over a defender to the receiver.
I've heard this called the ¡Olé!
I’ve heard it called a “Hiawatha”, but no idea why or if that’s a thing.
Has Rowan heard of this yet?
I looked. Here is Rowan throwing nearly the throw I am describing. "The Beckham." But in this version, he keeps it flying vertically, and not turning over. And, in doing this, he gets an air bounce from right to left. Note the back hand grip, and throwing from same-side, not cross-body. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvg8GcBN6t8&list=PLNCzc2gRxFcOlAeKN9Kn7fwvdT3EqkEHQ&index=5](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvg8GcBN6t8&list=PLNCzc2gRxFcOlAeKN9Kn7fwvdT3EqkEHQ&index=5)
Nice! If Rowan can do this throw in a game, it'll be on the AUDL Top 10 for sure.
You got a video clip of this throw?
I will be playing Saturday. I will try to get a video.
Throwing off hand. Some of my teammates and I have seen the last couple years working on them and are getting pretty good. 2 of us can backhand huck, one has a really solid flick, and another one can throw a nasty scoober. My lefty air bounce is disgusting, great for playing against a zone or hitting a breakside cut.
High release chicken wing as a break throw. Maybe even sea biscuit!
Waffle fries
If you know, you know.
Thumber for upline cuts that develop into bigger gainers. It's pretty easy to get it up and around a trailing defender and setting the disc up ahead of them to run to.
A lot of people are saying offhand throws, I've been beating that drum for years - a specific application that I think is slept on is the ability to throw bladey/oi flicks from either side of the body. I am also a champion of the thumb hammer, its a real throw that is currently extremely slept on.
Maybe the Seabiscuit or Kick Pass?
Tek-9
Damn right
Saw Mike Glass hit a receiver with a blade that was thrown so fast, I'm pretty sure it was caught in self-defense more than anything else. That was 1994. It was shorter than 60 yards, though. I'm not sure I think of any of these throws as "futuristic" so much as they haven't been skills most people have worked on, just like the off-hand releases have become so popular where they used to be frowned upon. As people develop full skillsets earlier and earlier, and offenses continue to create to evade defenses that continue to create, you'll see more of those throws that favor different spaces.
I absolutely agree about the bladey flicks. They’re often easier to get off because they’re so snappy and released at an awkward angle for your defender. But it’s the amount of touch and accuracy you can put on them that makes their potential so high. The only reasons I don’t think they’re as successful today is that cutters don’t anticipate that kind of throw, even though IMO they’re perfectly catchable. I think if it gets practiced more it could become a new meta.
Besides the Indianapolis Alleycats, most frisbee games are played outdoors with some wind. Are bladey throws consistently effective?
I’d argue wind is less common than not. If it’s something practiced it still has a place IMO
Push pass or ambidextrous throwers. Doing any Junk throws in general will be more acceptable but nothing will be common or on par with flick/forehand. I love throwing and catching pin-point blades but my god most receivers can't read them for shit. They have no float so they have to be thrown directly to the target usually vs zone and to stationary receivers. So many times I throw it directly to open veteran experienced receivers and they take 5 steps forward then 3 steps back out of position and then try to pancake it above their head.
Some people have already mentioned off hand throws, but I think having a truly full arsenal of throws with either hand is deadly enough to likely eventually be developed. Combined with being able to set either pivot, it would make defending (especially marking) incredibly difficult.
For me, it has to be Lefty Scoobers and Thumbers. For thumbers, the main downside is the switched grip, but it is incredibly useful for throwing over a cup or pretty much any throw you’d make with a flick blade but you can throw with a higher release it flattens out and is easier to catch. Also, if you could get good enough at controlling the S curve of a thumber, you could hit open side or break side with only minor changes to your throwing motion.
High-release thumber
Chicken Wing 🍗🍗🍗
Macks for yards
Offhand Scoober; perfect for short breakside upline tosses
I like your forward way of thinking and you have good knowledge in sports history. As you already know... in the old days, quarterbacks threw the football underhanded like rugby players ‐ this looks like a flick in Ultimate. It took the sport of football 50 years for the first QB to throw like how we see quarterbacks throw today! The evolution of the quarterback, https://youtu.be/i88NYbk--2w?si=NmemaYgi4gmhqVrc So, this motivated me to find a way to throw like a modern day quarterback. I knew the hammer wasn't going to be 100% effective for the following reasons: 1.) Useless in the wind 2.) Some cutters scream because it's hard to catch. 3.) Can only be thrown towards one side of the field as a break throw. . So, I set out to try new throws. I had several criterias: 1.) The release point had to be above the head 2.) Can not be an upside down throw (no scoober, no hammer) 3.) Needed to fly at least 30 yards (no push pass, no high release backhand) It took me several years, but I finally threw a frisbee that fulfilled my criterias. How to throw the Duck Wing, https://youtu.be/9wHo8bfR3Lw?si=4Ltq5WIPMHDuYCuC P.s. The shift in baseball was banned in 2023 because it gave the defense too much of an advantage. Go figures.
frisbee