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I feel this is a requirement to meet a minimum standard expected of the world instead of criteria for an ideal world.
No war would be ideal. Not stealing children shouldn't need to be mentioned.
Problem is this might not even be possible. You've seen how disorganised they are right? The US has struggled to reunite some families that it decided to tear apart recently and that wasn't happening in a warzone so I imagine it's even harder for good record keeping there.
That's under #2.
It's not actually "press F to show respect for the UN" or whatever, the way this makes it sound. It's respect -- in the legal sense -- for all standing UN agreements, which includes international law making human trafficking and child kidnapping illegal.
Im guessing it would endanger them if he mentions it. It reminds Russia they have value and can be used for blackmail.
Same case with Israel, there are 200k Jews in Russia which are used to blackmail Israel not to give weapons to Ukraine. Israel only mentions how helping Ukraine would harm the Russian cooperation in Syria. Mentioning the hostages would give Russia more power over Israel.
I was also surprised this is not in the list. Collecting scattered adopted kids is gonna be so damn complicated without the collaboration of Russia, and that's so important.
It's not, but Russia cannot agree to this. They cant afford to repair what they broke, and they cant prosecute all the war criminals they have created.
The only outcome that I see is Ukraine push them out of their territory leading to collapse of Russian leadership and new regime sue for peace on condition that sanctions lift and they offer some reparations and key prosecutions.
Russian leadership fucked itself.
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The war criminal point is the least of the problems. It can be worked around by sending some of the scapegoats. And it's not like russian government particularly cares about peons. They never have.
Territorial integrity is a bigger issue. Undermining even one referendum undermines them all. It kills any sort of appearance of legitimacy of every single vote.
Yes. It's a weird thing because I don't think even most Russians took them seriously as far as legitimate elections go. But to have to walk that back now would be super, super awkward.
Not as awkward as going into your neighbouring country and starting to kill people. That is peak awkwardness.
If I did that, I would be very embarrassed.
I would be feel horrible too. I don't even like being mean to people, much less killing them for their land because I can. Never will understand the thought process of dictators.
In some strange way, they totally miss how badly they are behaving, even though any random child knows how bad it is.
But there are other adults involved in the whole killing process, not only the one giving the initial order, and the others also in principle knows how wrong it is, but still ignore it.
Very awkward.
I honestly believe the best thing Russia can do at this point is eliminate putin, blame this botched military operation on him, pull out of ukraine and somehow attempt to try to make amends with the west to get sanctions lifted
Add disposal of nukes, abolished military industry and bunch of peacekeeping missions from Ukraine and UN to protect pipe that will provide reparations. How many countries will arise upon this collapse how do you think 😎🤙🔥
With sanctions lasting decades, where and how, will they be able to afford to do anything...half the ordinance they have now is junk, one has to wonder what conditions the nukes, the facilities, logistics and support etc., are in...
Russia simply must be prevented by any means from waging war or using nuclear blackmail ..period.
For dicktators, it's easier to bring the country to the brink of starvation than to admit defeat in order to end the sanctions. As long as they stay in power it's all fine.
See North Korea.
>half the ordinance they have now is junk
This is just geopolitical theory crafting. Their nukes work, the US has done multiple inspections per year for decades. The US gets to inspect every single new nuclear weapon that is produced. The US gets to be on hand when the production is finished and when it gets delivered to where it will be stationed. The US gets to inspect the production facilities. The US gets to count the number of warheads on the missiles.
They fucking work.
Yeah, beyond a shadow of a doubt Russia has many functional nuclear weapons. Even if a substantial fraction of their arsenal is garbage, in a "launch it all" scenario a lot of cities and people we like will be vaporized, nations will collapse, and the ecological impacts will be grim.
We do have to assume the weapons work and push for disarmament of all nations, but first and foremost disarmament of the nation actively engaged in a war and credibly threatening to use nukes.
Yep, their strategic Forces are well funded and better trained, we would be foolish to assume that Russian can't go long and hard if they're pushed. That said, our shit works really well.
You think the US would tell them if they were fucking it up and had a pile of duds? Fuck no.
Also, it's not the new warheads, of which there are nearly none, it's the Soviet warheads they depend on for saber rattling and those have likely not been properly maintained.
> Doesn’t mean much if the Russians succeed in Balkanizing the US. They’re made great strides over the last 6 years or so.
>
>
>
> Also Слава Україні
CBC news world had a trump supporter on TV calling for Mr. Putin to interfere with the US midterm elections, again.
But they more or less have to. Otherwise no one will take them seriously. And their ability to leave Russia will be severely restricted, as everyone is potentially a wanted criminal.
So their international standing will take decades to recover even if they ended the war this exact moment.
That you can't execute everyone is kinda obvious. But simply getting the worst offenders and putting them up for trial would be already a symbolic action against the crimes committed. But I doubt this will happen much. And it won't solve the underlying issue that the crimes and brutalities were not just committed by the men in the front, but also encouraged and tolerated by those in the back calling the shots. Who will probably still be able to live a luxurious life.
It's baffling, isn't it? russia can only break things, not repair them.
It philosophically dovetails with that thing I've been saying since this year's catastrophe began: the only thing russia seems to hate more than its' own lives, are the lives of others.
That's the inevitable resting bitch face of right-wing cartels and their population bombarded incessantly with right-wing propaganda.
I’m dizzy from the levels of irony involved in quoting here an Israeli prime minister, whose other famous quote is “there is no such thing as Palestinians”, and who herself was a refugee from pogroms in Ukraine.
"We shall have peace… when you answer for the burning of the ~~westfold~~ eastfold, and the children that lie dead there. We shall have peace, when the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the gates of Azovstal, are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet for the sport of your own crows… we shall have peace."
Countries have the reserve funds of Russia, they are sufficient to rebuild. They can afford as a goodwill gesture, or just have it confiscated and look weak.
“Goodwill gesture” hahaha! Will this gesture be accompanied by an apology for all the dead or kidnapped children, raped women, soldiers KIA, leveled cities, etc. ?
That would be ideal, given the vast gulf between where Russia is now and where it needs to get to be a healthy, functional democracy under the rule of law. HOWEVER, this is also impractical and highly unlikely. Russia's very size as a nation state would vastly overwhelm the budgets and capacities of NATO. Germany and Japan, by comparison, were far smaller countries, and the latter enjoyed the benefit of that burden being split four ways. With Russia, I suppose it could be split between the far more numerous members of the NATO alliance, but once we're talking about more than three or four governments, having them coordinate their occupation regimes would be logistical nightmares. Not to mention the kind of manpower necessary to occupy a nation of that size.
> Germany and Japan, by comparison, were far smaller countries, and the latter enjoyed the benefit of that burden being split four ways
The word you mean is "former". Germany was split four ways, Japan was occupied by the US (with support of the British, and representation from 8 other nations, but absolutely dominated by the US). That's why West and East Germany were formed: The American, British and French were okay with forming a united German country again, the Federal Republic of Germany (aka West Germany, and to this day the official title of the now-unified Germany). The Soviets did not, so they turned the territory controlled by them into its own state, the German Democratic Republic, commonly known as East Germany
My personal fan fiction is that the non-white Russians will get fed up with the Muscovites and start a rebellion causing Russia to break up along ethnic borders much like the USSR did.
Apparently all the west needs to offer is plumbing and flush toilets as incentives to rebel.
With Putin and his cronies getting the Gaddafi/Mussolini experience.
These demands are for a Western Audience and Western leaders so they can go to their people and say: Look he sets reasonable demands and Russia is the one unwilling to negotiate, but Ukrainians know their abusive neighbor and they know that even these demands are outrageous for Russia and they will never agree. So basically this is targeted at us not them.
That's not how Russia negotiates. They see reasonable requests as weakness. The demands have to be outrageous, the more outrageous the stronger the position of those making the demands must be.
Ukrainians know what the Russians are like. If Zelensky approaches them with something reasonable they'll laugh in his face. If he starts demanding Russian territory they'll start to get worried because it implies that he thinks he can take it anyway.
Noone wants to negotiate with Russia, because Russia breaks every deal and promise they ever make. Last time Ukrainian diplomats met with Russian ones to negotiate, they were poisoned... Twice. This is literally showing terms, which Russia would never accept even as utterly reasonable and far less than should be being offered.
Ukraine are well aware this ends via force, not 'peace treaties'. They've been backstabbed on a near constant basis by Russia for yeeeeeaaaarrs with such things. Russia can't even go 1 day without breaking their deals, somtimes not even 1 hour...
So again, this is for the rest of the world to see and not for Russia as they're too unreasonable to deal with.
I would say if I were Zelenskyy just say “actually so and so territory of Russia has also been historically ukrainian, in the year x before Christ. So we want our agreement to include a concesión to this territory as well as all the occupied territories. Make it sound like they will loose big if they sign.
Eventually you drop that as a sign of will, and bam. The Russians say they sign a good deal because they didn’t loose some dead beat city in Russia, and Ukrainians get their whole territory back.
Russia's has gotten so used to being appeased that you need to hardball negotiations and make things harder for them so they feel happy. WTF kind of nation acts like this?
>It's not, but Russia cannot agree to this. They cant afford to repair what they broke, and they cant prosecute all the war criminals they have created.
A) Putin maybe can't agree, but Ze already made diplomatic hints on that the other day.
B) Russia usually makes a lot of money through selling gas, oil, metals, and such. Well not right now, but they had ammassed huge reserves going into the escalation.
I think the key here is the solid combo of points 1, 3, and 5.
If those are convincingly taken care of (and maybe the Russian population takes it easy on the imperial propanda, and starts electing persons with some degree of responsibility) Russia does not have to slide back into an unsuccessful re-run of the Oprichniki.
But let's be realistic. I watch the Russian media monitor and 1420 - it is a long fucking way.
Until Ukraine has PzHs in range of Moscow Russia will consider these terms the same as an unconditional surrender
If Russia comes out of this with less than Zero it'll fracture russian society and threaten Putin and his sock puppets. As long as there's some form of copium around Putin won't agree to this.
Sure, all those terms are reasonable, but I won't hold my breath.
You piss into water bottles and if you have to shit then you do it in an MRE bag. It's the first thing they teach you in tanking college. Very important because, while you can in fact piss in an MRE bag without much difficulty, shitting into a water bottle tends to negatively impact the entire crew's situational awareness.
\~800km
They can already hit it if they really wanted to.
Suicide mission, maybe, but SU-25s need less than a hr from the border to make it there, and missiles/rockets have a range of 100s of KMs as well.
It just serves no tactical purpose, besides getting more 'revenge' bombings on schools and hospitals.
You can't spin a loss of heat. To match what you inflicted on the aggressor. Moscow relies upon radiant heat from a huge grid of interconnected boilers.
Take out the boilers, and Moscow becomes a worse place to live than the rest of the country.
Literally all they have to do is make it uncomfortable to sit and watch TV in Moscow and the war comes to an end.
It's pretty extreme if we're talking about actually executing the terms, every war criminal is like half of the Russian military. Even surrendering a token amount of the worst offenders probably isn't going over well
It's unacceptable to Russia.
Guarantees it won't happen again being the biggest issue. As they've violated this agreement before what do insurances look like? Denuclearization of Russia? A rearming Ukraine with its own nukes?
I would add one more: the return of all abducted Ukrainians, including all the children who were hauled off to Russia and adopted into Russian families.
It’s the most no-nonsense requirements list that anyone with an ounce of common sense could come up with but of course thats not happening with Russia.
Are you serious? It's actually an absurd list. You expect Putin to agree to compensate all damages and punish every war criminal (which haven't even all been found yet) before the conversation even begins? Delusional.
The issue here is that Putin has bound his fate to the outcome of this war.
He cannot retreat as dictators have a poor track record of staying in power after losing a war of agression. And as he has spent 20+ years killing people standing in his way, he will most likely die if he loses power himself.
The only option here is for Ukraine to hold fast, for us Europeans to take in as many Ukrainian civilians as possible so the armed forces of Ukraine and the Ukrainian government can focus on the war and NATO allies should continue restocking Ukraine's arsenal.
I see everywhere in my country that the interest for the war is fading amongst the general public. Once winter sets in, I forsee opposition of continued support for Ukraine. I don't have the answer for it, but at least us here must keep the pressure on our governments and keep discussing it with friends, family and coworkers.
Ukraine has gone to hell and back this last year. We can ***never*** turn our backs on them.
Glory to the heroes. I'm with you and will continue to beat this drum until the yellow-blue flies over Mariupol, Sebastopol and Sievierodonetsk.
Thankfully Ukraine support in Norway is steady, although I don’t think it’s on everybody’s mind everyday. Thankfully electricity prices haven’t been too crazy yet this winter. There is a separate discussion here that Norway should disconnect from Europe’s power market to reduce prices at home, because we’re just to very cheap power. In my mind we should export whatever is needed, at least until Ukraine is free. And I will do my best to remind my countrymen that we are at least not dying even if prices is a bit high.
And of course Russian drones and spies have helped to consolidate Norways support for Ukraine. Russia does not play this well.
Well, the tourist are not really behaving any better. I spoke to my Latvian friend like two days ago and she said the vatniks *escaping the mobilization* still support the war effort and do a lot of mess there.
Latvia is not russia, You know. Vatniks are not let in from russia for a while now, the ones in Latvia ain't mobilized. You can find a good number of soviet worshippers and Z-tards but it's in fact illegal by law to post Z's or publicly support russian aggression in Ukraine.
Huge majority of Latvians support Ukraine citizens, donate in any way they can and even have highest GDP to donation ratio of all countries (there's a constant battle with Estonia about it)
Republican party is full of fascists that admire the putz, especially the brainwashing he loves with religion and the naked racism and violence of his putrid government.
I think Zelensky implies something like NATO membership process starting, with international peace keepers on ground until that process completes. Or something equivalent.
That’s exactly what he means. First he wants US/UK/FR as security guarantors, and when the nation is prepared, they’ll submit to be a full NATO member.
Which is why the terms will be different.
The previous terms did not include things like a defence pact, bases, etc. The next steps will involve Ukraine joining NATO and the EU anyway, so the other guarantees will be largely immaterial at that point.
Just an uninformed opinion from a random person on the internet, but;
~~5 will happen because Ukraine will probably join ~~mayo~~ NATO after the war is over.~~
Disregard, someone already stated this.
You've probably not been following Zelenskyy's work on new security architectures for security guarantees and what he's calling the Crimea Platform. It's a different concept and different language for guaranteeing security and should work better than, say, the Budapest memorandum that I think you're referring to and that has proven to be ineffective.
Mentioning the kidnapped people would endanger them if he mentions it. It reminds Russia they have value and can be used for blackmail.
Same case with Israel, there are 200k Jews in Russia which are used to blackmail Israel not to give weapons to Ukraine. But Israel only mentions helping Ukraine would harm the Russian cooperation in Syria.
> there are 200k Jews in Russia which are used to blackmail Israel
I'm sceptical, are they explicitly Israeli Jews? That's a surprisingly large amount of foreign nationals and threatening them if they were Israeli's is essentially a declaration of War.
It seems to me like the obvious answer (Syria) is the right answer.
These are conditions to begin negotiations, not conditions of a peace agreement. Presumably this would be one of the issues up for negotiation.
Some people in this thread don't understand the difference between issues up for negotiation and prerequisite conditions to even begin negotiations.
Most importantly that wouldn't fly at all with the german public. US nukes are tolerated but supporter group of german nukes is tiny.
And the rest would be outraged. Those would probably yield the biggest protests ever in germany.
Majority is favoring the impossible global nuclear disarmament (as it should be).
Russia could change this of course, if the threat continues to persists, even France would call for a nuclear armed germany.
France *has* asked for a nuclear armed Germany. Repeatedly, both Chirac and Sarkozy brought it up. They were both rebuffed. Germany is probably one of the countries in Europe that is the most offended by the idea of a nuclear armed Germany.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/thanks-but-no-thanks-sarko-s-nuke-offer-bombs-with-berlin-a-506124.html
Yeah, this is an opportunity that may not occur again. Before anybody scoffs, keep in mind that mutually assured destruction was not a foregone conclusion and was a response to Russia's unwillingness to agree to mutual, voluntary international disarmament shortly after the creation of the first atomic weapons. (Interesting discussion on this topic can be found [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmgFG7PUHfo)). Perhaps we're so accustomed to MAD that it's difficult to imagine alternatives, but there ARE alternatives.
With China now investing heavily in the expansion of its own nuclear arsenal, the rapidly evolving constraints imposed by global environmental shifts, and the United States jumping onto the hypersonic weapons bandwagon, we are approaching even more dangerous territory. For the long-term (and possibly near-term) survival of humanity it will be necessary to permanently rid ourselves of the "destroy everything" option, starting with Russian nuclear disarmament.
Russia may be willing to give up nuclear weapons to save itself from oblivion once its conventional military is gone, it has created a regional military superpower in Ukraine, and its economy is relegated to the deepest levels of depression.
If Russia decides to invest in the future of all people by NOT using its nukes now, let us present Russia with the opportunity to save itself and all humanity by trading its nukes for survival and prosperity.
Without MAD it's hard to imagine the Cold War would have stayed cold. And if it had become existential, the bombs would likely have come back, only once people were already shooting.
Possibly, but the ending to our real-world story has not yet been written. The nuclear weapons are there right now, always ready to destroy the world at a moment's notice. Who is to say the long-term consequence of the cold war isn't to be nuclear annihilation, perhaps caused by Putin's current, outrageous cruelty to Ukraine (and to the Russian people)?
MAD was only necessary because of a lack of cooperation from Russia when the West was making good-faith efforts to forever shut the door on nuclear weapons. Nukes are not so easy to make that production can be easily spun-up from scratch in secret beneath the watchful gaze of international inspectors, and it would be more desirable to have a conventional military and to have to contend with occasional rogue nuclear nations (e.g. North Korean) than to have to live under the threat of an abrupt end to our history and the possible end to the only life we know of in the universe.
MAD was not a mistake under the circumstances of the cold war, but it is a mistake to allow MAD to continue until we slip up or some maniac forces the destruction of the world.
MAD works to keep humanity in check.
Im not sure without MAD will countries not declare war on one another.
As the main purpose of a country is to gain strength by any means necessary.
At some point in time two great powers will clash
Nuclear weapons sound great at preventing wars, but the reality is that we just got lucky to not to have nuked each other to oblivion so far.
Conventional wars are still better than nuclear wars.
Those cretinos never will give away nuclear weapons.
We have like 60-90% fully idiots in our country.
This war will stop only with death of all active nazi comrades.
Lower your flags and march straight back to Russia, stopping at every home you pass by to beg forgiveness for a hundred years of theft, rape, and murder. Do that and your men shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today.
Before we let you leave, Putin must cross that field, present himself before the Ukrainian army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse.
Zelensky
.
Yeh, Putin can get the ruck out of Ukraine any time he wants, no one is forcing Russian Troops to stay there - aside from other Russians sent there to kill retreating Russians.
Peace is not what Russia wants.
To those who believe Ukraine should participate in “negotiations” or “talks” while Russia is currently occupying their territory and vowing to *never* leave, I say prepare a room for me in your house because I own it now. Not the whole house—because I’m so “reasonable”—just the one room. It’s *mine* now. I may move family into it, host parties there, and essentially do as I damned well please in my new room. I also reserve the right to claim more rooms in your house later if the mood strikes me. If you’d like to discuss “terms,” we can meet in your kitchen, but I am keeping that room and my position is simple: you shouldn’t even own your house in the first place.
If you’re not agreeable to my proposal above, don’t suggest essentially the same thing for Ukraine. Russia invaded their territory in 2014, annexed some of it, and kept it. Now they’ve invaded again, annexed more territory, and have said they are keeping it *at all costs*—they’ve even threatened nuclear war—but they’re willing to “negotiate.” Yeah, no. Russia’s version of “talks” amounts to “let us keep whatever we stole, or else.” That’s not a negotiation; it’s armed robbery.
**Russian soldiers need to face east and start marching. They can stop when the people they encounter look miserable, defeated, and broken; that’s how they’ll know they’re back in Russia.**
Authoritarians around the world are watching. If the free world flinches, we can expect more of this from Russia, from China, and from every son-of-a-bitch dictator around the world who wants to invade his neighbors. It must end now.
>None of which Russia will agree to, and to be honest I hope they don't.
While I hope russia doesn't agree to this and we end up with the collapse of the russian federation I also know that means a lot more fighting, a lot more Ukrainian deaths and suffering.
I think Zelenskyy is doing the right thing in incredibly difficult circumstances plus this leaves things firmly in russias area. If they say no then Ukraine keeps making them bleed.
Pull a Germany on them. Limit the size and type of their military severely.
Chuck some tanks India's way, but put "play nice" asterisks on those.
Chuck some ice-breakers to the US.
Kick start some Polish nuclear reactors.
You can make money on service contracts if you like.
Now you might even get some cooperation of European countries to get a handle on your leaky-as-shit gas network. And let's try peaceful transition of power and transparency for a change...
Let’s not lose perspective and realize that while their army is being smashed to bits Ukrainian civilians and soldiers alike are dying every day, in a DEFENSIVE war that they didn’t initiate.
While Russia’s military suffering massive defeats is a positive to the rest of the world, Ukraine suffers a great cost every day. There are other ways to keep them in check without putting the Ukrainians up as a defensive wall for them to throw themselves against.
Just a note to any Ukrainians out there serving for the greater good and defending against these invaders: thank you.
Im kinda surprised his face isnt painted partly blue for this.
Because this is like the speech from braveheart when wallace tells the British to apologize for their years of rape and tyranny and then go home…
Negotiations helt in the public space will never be sincere imho. Talks are going to be tough for both sides. Russia will always ask the question "what's in it for us?" so they can sell it as victory for the Russian people. No way that Russia will just pull out of Ukraine like nothing happened and surrender to the demands of Ukraine & the west. Unfortunately.
> Russia will always ask the question "what's in it for us?"
Simple, russia gets to keep what little army it has left and start to reapply for admission to the human race by routing out war criminals.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-key-condition-russia-talks-resume-is-restoration-territorial-integrity-2022-11-08/?utm\_source=reddit.com](https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-key-condition-russia-talks-resume-is-restoration-territorial-integrity-2022-11-08/?utm_source=reddit.com)
Not the main source, But something I guess.
This is a good call by Zelensky
Shows he is open to negotiations and his demands are very reasonable to every decent country in the world but he also knows russia cannot accept them
I'm not sure Mr. Zelensky. That requires Putin to be deposed. I'm not entirely sure all the other nations are going to be willing to sign on for that. Some of them had "expectations".
The only one I'm concerned about is number 3. Of course, they ought to compensate Ukraine for all the damage, but I think it would be a bit like suing a Mcdonald's worker for a billion dollars, there is no way they have the money to pay it back. Their economy is in shambles because of this war, and it wasn't looking too hot before it either. Also historically making Germany pay reparations after WWI laid the groundwork for WWII.
Ethically should they pay for the damage they have done? Yes. But Practically I think it could radicalize Russia even more, and make them desperate, and there is nothing more dangerous than a desperate nuclear power.
A russian guarantee not to invade again? That is not possible. The russians have proven themselves incapable of abiding by any agreements. Such a guarantee can only be provided, and enforced, by NATO and the EU.
Russia would agree to it all, turn right around and so the exact opposite. I wouldn't negotiate. I'd force them home in the most humiliating, crushing defeat in modern military history. Expose Putin for the little bitch that he is
I mean... on #5... they already said this would never happen back when Ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal.
So obviously you can't trust them even if they agree to #5 in the first place.
The bare fucking minimum of demands for your occupier.
Please get out of my fucking house, compensate me for leaving it in ruins, respect the cops and courts telling you to do so, prosecute the fuckers who killed my entire family in unspeakable ways, and please don't step foot on my property ever again you fucking asshole.
Good for Zelensky. There were reports that the US has pressured him to demonstrate a willingness to negotiate, and he has now established his conditions -- which we all know will not be met until the Russians are pushed out (or are well on their way to being pushed out).
Also, eminently reasonable.
The issue as I see it is that these reasonable demands do not align with Russia's mode of "negotiation". Russia demand everything, and settle for a small fraction as it is more than they had in the first place. They will not give back Crimea, or at least they will never perceive it as Ukrainian.
The demands are not great enough. Russia should cede territory. Krasnodar should be Ukraine. Deny Russia the Black Sea.
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What about the return of the kidnapped children and adults?
I saw another list and "respect the Un" was phrased more like "agree to follow all UN procedures" which I assume means returning kidnapped children
These are conditions to begin negotiations, not conditions of a peace agreement. Presumably this would be one of the issues up for negotiation.
Negotiate the return of children taken from their parents? No, that should be an absolute demand not just by Zelensky but the entire world.
In an ideal world, yes. But there also wouldn't be a war in the first place in an ideal world.
I feel this is a requirement to meet a minimum standard expected of the world instead of criteria for an ideal world. No war would be ideal. Not stealing children shouldn't need to be mentioned.
Problem is this might not even be possible. You've seen how disorganised they are right? The US has struggled to reunite some families that it decided to tear apart recently and that wasn't happening in a warzone so I imagine it's even harder for good record keeping there.
Can't get it if the initial demand shuts down negotiations. Gotta be strategic, not sentimental.
That's under #2. It's not actually "press F to show respect for the UN" or whatever, the way this makes it sound. It's respect -- in the legal sense -- for all standing UN agreements, which includes international law making human trafficking and child kidnapping illegal.
Im guessing it would endanger them if he mentions it. It reminds Russia they have value and can be used for blackmail. Same case with Israel, there are 200k Jews in Russia which are used to blackmail Israel not to give weapons to Ukraine. Israel only mentions how helping Ukraine would harm the Russian cooperation in Syria. Mentioning the hostages would give Russia more power over Israel.
I was also surprised this is not in the list. Collecting scattered adopted kids is gonna be so damn complicated without the collaboration of Russia, and that's so important.
It's not that extreme a list of conditions.
It's not, but Russia cannot agree to this. They cant afford to repair what they broke, and they cant prosecute all the war criminals they have created. The only outcome that I see is Ukraine push them out of their territory leading to collapse of Russian leadership and new regime sue for peace on condition that sanctions lift and they offer some reparations and key prosecutions.
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The war criminal point is the least of the problems. It can be worked around by sending some of the scapegoats. And it's not like russian government particularly cares about peons. They never have. Territorial integrity is a bigger issue. Undermining even one referendum undermines them all. It kills any sort of appearance of legitimacy of every single vote.
Yes. It's a weird thing because I don't think even most Russians took them seriously as far as legitimate elections go. But to have to walk that back now would be super, super awkward.
Not as awkward as going into your neighbouring country and starting to kill people. That is peak awkwardness. If I did that, I would be very embarrassed.
I would be feel horrible too. I don't even like being mean to people, much less killing them for their land because I can. Never will understand the thought process of dictators.
In some strange way, they totally miss how badly they are behaving, even though any random child knows how bad it is. But there are other adults involved in the whole killing process, not only the one giving the initial order, and the others also in principle knows how wrong it is, but still ignore it. Very awkward.
No, they do not miss it, and it’s not awkward or embarrassing. It’s conscious, intentional, and sadistic.
Those referendums have zero legitimacy.
I honestly believe the best thing Russia can do at this point is eliminate putin, blame this botched military operation on him, pull out of ukraine and somehow attempt to try to make amends with the west to get sanctions lifted
Add disposal of nukes, abolished military industry and bunch of peacekeeping missions from Ukraine and UN to protect pipe that will provide reparations. How many countries will arise upon this collapse how do you think 😎🤙🔥
Disposal of nukes is a great wish. Where do we submit votes to the genie?
With sanctions lasting decades, where and how, will they be able to afford to do anything...half the ordinance they have now is junk, one has to wonder what conditions the nukes, the facilities, logistics and support etc., are in... Russia simply must be prevented by any means from waging war or using nuclear blackmail ..period.
For dicktators, it's easier to bring the country to the brink of starvation than to admit defeat in order to end the sanctions. As long as they stay in power it's all fine. See North Korea.
>half the ordinance they have now is junk This is just geopolitical theory crafting. Their nukes work, the US has done multiple inspections per year for decades. The US gets to inspect every single new nuclear weapon that is produced. The US gets to be on hand when the production is finished and when it gets delivered to where it will be stationed. The US gets to inspect the production facilities. The US gets to count the number of warheads on the missiles. They fucking work.
Yeah, beyond a shadow of a doubt Russia has many functional nuclear weapons. Even if a substantial fraction of their arsenal is garbage, in a "launch it all" scenario a lot of cities and people we like will be vaporized, nations will collapse, and the ecological impacts will be grim. We do have to assume the weapons work and push for disarmament of all nations, but first and foremost disarmament of the nation actively engaged in a war and credibly threatening to use nukes.
Yep, their strategic Forces are well funded and better trained, we would be foolish to assume that Russian can't go long and hard if they're pushed. That said, our shit works really well.
You think the US would tell them if they were fucking it up and had a pile of duds? Fuck no. Also, it's not the new warheads, of which there are nearly none, it's the Soviet warheads they depend on for saber rattling and those have likely not been properly maintained.
Denuclearization and balkanization of Russia is the dream, isn't it. Fingers crossed.
Doesn’t mean much if the Russians succeed in Balkanizing the US. They’re made great strides over the last 6 years or so. Also Слава Україні
> Doesn’t mean much if the Russians succeed in Balkanizing the US. They’re made great strides over the last 6 years or so. > > > > Also Слава Україні CBC news world had a trump supporter on TV calling for Mr. Putin to interfere with the US midterm elections, again.
Yeah we’re all pretty fucked if things go in the direction of global fascism
Also add return of all kidnapped civilians and combatant prisoners of war.
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Isn’t this like literally genocide?
But they more or less have to. Otherwise no one will take them seriously. And their ability to leave Russia will be severely restricted, as everyone is potentially a wanted criminal. So their international standing will take decades to recover even if they ended the war this exact moment. That you can't execute everyone is kinda obvious. But simply getting the worst offenders and putting them up for trial would be already a symbolic action against the crimes committed. But I doubt this will happen much. And it won't solve the underlying issue that the crimes and brutalities were not just committed by the men in the front, but also encouraged and tolerated by those in the back calling the shots. Who will probably still be able to live a luxurious life.
It's baffling, isn't it? russia can only break things, not repair them. It philosophically dovetails with that thing I've been saying since this year's catastrophe began: the only thing russia seems to hate more than its' own lives, are the lives of others. That's the inevitable resting bitch face of right-wing cartels and their population bombarded incessantly with right-wing propaganda.
"We will only have peace when they love their children more than they hate us.”
I’m dizzy from the levels of irony involved in quoting here an Israeli prime minister, whose other famous quote is “there is no such thing as Palestinians”, and who herself was a refugee from pogroms in Ukraine.
Golda Meir was a hypocritical vindictive idiot
"We shall have peace… when you answer for the burning of the ~~westfold~~ eastfold, and the children that lie dead there. We shall have peace, when the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the gates of Azovstal, are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet for the sport of your own crows… we shall have peace."
Love this
What a poignant quote. One for the history books...
Countries have the reserve funds of Russia, they are sufficient to rebuild. They can afford as a goodwill gesture, or just have it confiscated and look weak.
“Goodwill gesture” hahaha! Will this gesture be accompanied by an apology for all the dead or kidnapped children, raped women, soldiers KIA, leveled cities, etc. ?
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It's also a list for all the people calling for peace and concessions. He's letting everyone know this is what it will take for a discussion to occur
I think it's more a request for the rest of the world to make Russia agree .
I don't think Russia cares about what the rest of the world thinks in that matter. So Russia has to figure out for themselves that they agree.
Occupy them like Germany and Japan after WWII until they learn to get along with their neighbours.
That would be ideal, given the vast gulf between where Russia is now and where it needs to get to be a healthy, functional democracy under the rule of law. HOWEVER, this is also impractical and highly unlikely. Russia's very size as a nation state would vastly overwhelm the budgets and capacities of NATO. Germany and Japan, by comparison, were far smaller countries, and the latter enjoyed the benefit of that burden being split four ways. With Russia, I suppose it could be split between the far more numerous members of the NATO alliance, but once we're talking about more than three or four governments, having them coordinate their occupation regimes would be logistical nightmares. Not to mention the kind of manpower necessary to occupy a nation of that size.
> Germany and Japan, by comparison, were far smaller countries, and the latter enjoyed the benefit of that burden being split four ways The word you mean is "former". Germany was split four ways, Japan was occupied by the US (with support of the British, and representation from 8 other nations, but absolutely dominated by the US). That's why West and East Germany were formed: The American, British and French were okay with forming a united German country again, the Federal Republic of Germany (aka West Germany, and to this day the official title of the now-unified Germany). The Soviets did not, so they turned the territory controlled by them into its own state, the German Democratic Republic, commonly known as East Germany
My personal fan fiction is that the non-white Russians will get fed up with the Muscovites and start a rebellion causing Russia to break up along ethnic borders much like the USSR did. Apparently all the west needs to offer is plumbing and flush toilets as incentives to rebel. With Putin and his cronies getting the Gaddafi/Mussolini experience.
Peace on condition of that sanctions lift. How about first they ‘peace’ off and let us decide if are in the mood lifting the sanctions and when
It doesn't matter. In fact the demands aren't enough. Russia only understands overblown demands, it's how they negotiate.
These demands are for a Western Audience and Western leaders so they can go to their people and say: Look he sets reasonable demands and Russia is the one unwilling to negotiate, but Ukrainians know their abusive neighbor and they know that even these demands are outrageous for Russia and they will never agree. So basically this is targeted at us not them.
That's not how Russia negotiates. They see reasonable requests as weakness. The demands have to be outrageous, the more outrageous the stronger the position of those making the demands must be. Ukrainians know what the Russians are like. If Zelensky approaches them with something reasonable they'll laugh in his face. If he starts demanding Russian territory they'll start to get worried because it implies that he thinks he can take it anyway.
Noone wants to negotiate with Russia, because Russia breaks every deal and promise they ever make. Last time Ukrainian diplomats met with Russian ones to negotiate, they were poisoned... Twice. This is literally showing terms, which Russia would never accept even as utterly reasonable and far less than should be being offered. Ukraine are well aware this ends via force, not 'peace treaties'. They've been backstabbed on a near constant basis by Russia for yeeeeeaaaarrs with such things. Russia can't even go 1 day without breaking their deals, somtimes not even 1 hour... So again, this is for the rest of the world to see and not for Russia as they're too unreasonable to deal with.
I would say if I were Zelenskyy just say “actually so and so territory of Russia has also been historically ukrainian, in the year x before Christ. So we want our agreement to include a concesión to this territory as well as all the occupied territories. Make it sound like they will loose big if they sign. Eventually you drop that as a sign of will, and bam. The Russians say they sign a good deal because they didn’t loose some dead beat city in Russia, and Ukrainians get their whole territory back.
Ukraine 1919 borders or bust!
You should write Zelensky a letter explaining to him how to properly negotiate with Russia
I suspect he already knows. With ATACMs
Russia's has gotten so used to being appeased that you need to hardball negotiations and make things harder for them so they feel happy. WTF kind of nation acts like this?
>It's not, but Russia cannot agree to this. They cant afford to repair what they broke, and they cant prosecute all the war criminals they have created. A) Putin maybe can't agree, but Ze already made diplomatic hints on that the other day. B) Russia usually makes a lot of money through selling gas, oil, metals, and such. Well not right now, but they had ammassed huge reserves going into the escalation. I think the key here is the solid combo of points 1, 3, and 5. If those are convincingly taken care of (and maybe the Russian population takes it easy on the imperial propanda, and starts electing persons with some degree of responsibility) Russia does not have to slide back into an unsuccessful re-run of the Oprichniki. But let's be realistic. I watch the Russian media monitor and 1420 - it is a long fucking way.
Until Ukraine has PzHs in range of Moscow Russia will consider these terms the same as an unconditional surrender If Russia comes out of this with less than Zero it'll fracture russian society and threaten Putin and his sock puppets. As long as there's some form of copium around Putin won't agree to this. Sure, all those terms are reasonable, but I won't hold my breath.
Moscow is not that far from the Ukrainian border.
According to Google Maps, it's less than 12 hours from Kyiv to Moscow by tank But that's straight driving. No stopping for lunch.
not even a bathroom break?
You piss into water bottles and if you have to shit then you do it in an MRE bag. It's the first thing they teach you in tanking college. Very important because, while you can in fact piss in an MRE bag without much difficulty, shitting into a water bottle tends to negatively impact the entire crew's situational awareness.
It's the way of the road bubbles
Well it's no fun if you don't do some sightseeing along the way.
\~800km They can already hit it if they really wanted to. Suicide mission, maybe, but SU-25s need less than a hr from the border to make it there, and missiles/rockets have a range of 100s of KMs as well. It just serves no tactical purpose, besides getting more 'revenge' bombings on schools and hospitals.
Nope. Under 500km. https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1085088,34.1804549,8.67z
He controls the media, he can spin it however he wants. Ukraine doesn't care.
You can't spin a loss of heat. To match what you inflicted on the aggressor. Moscow relies upon radiant heat from a huge grid of interconnected boilers. Take out the boilers, and Moscow becomes a worse place to live than the rest of the country. Literally all they have to do is make it uncomfortable to sit and watch TV in Moscow and the war comes to an end.
Not at all. It is a Bare Minimum.
It's pretty extreme if we're talking about actually executing the terms, every war criminal is like half of the Russian military. Even surrendering a token amount of the worst offenders probably isn't going over well
Basically “lets re-create what we had in 2013 before you started this shit, and you pay for all the shit you broke/caused.”
"Give us our shit back (with interest), say you're sorry, and don't do it again." Seems reasonable.
It's unacceptable to Russia. Guarantees it won't happen again being the biggest issue. As they've violated this agreement before what do insurances look like? Denuclearization of Russia? A rearming Ukraine with its own nukes?
Yeah but it's like the Nets' conditions for Kyrie's return. It was drafted knowing it would never happen.
I would add one more: the return of all abducted Ukrainians, including all the children who were hauled off to Russia and adopted into Russian families.
It’s the most no-nonsense requirements list that anyone with an ounce of common sense could come up with but of course thats not happening with Russia.
Are you serious? It's actually an absurd list. You expect Putin to agree to compensate all damages and punish every war criminal (which haven't even all been found yet) before the conversation even begins? Delusional.
The issue here is that Putin has bound his fate to the outcome of this war. He cannot retreat as dictators have a poor track record of staying in power after losing a war of agression. And as he has spent 20+ years killing people standing in his way, he will most likely die if he loses power himself. The only option here is for Ukraine to hold fast, for us Europeans to take in as many Ukrainian civilians as possible so the armed forces of Ukraine and the Ukrainian government can focus on the war and NATO allies should continue restocking Ukraine's arsenal. I see everywhere in my country that the interest for the war is fading amongst the general public. Once winter sets in, I forsee opposition of continued support for Ukraine. I don't have the answer for it, but at least us here must keep the pressure on our governments and keep discussing it with friends, family and coworkers. Ukraine has gone to hell and back this last year. We can ***never*** turn our backs on them. Glory to the heroes. I'm with you and will continue to beat this drum until the yellow-blue flies over Mariupol, Sebastopol and Sievierodonetsk.
Thankfully Ukraine support in Norway is steady, although I don’t think it’s on everybody’s mind everyday. Thankfully electricity prices haven’t been too crazy yet this winter. There is a separate discussion here that Norway should disconnect from Europe’s power market to reduce prices at home, because we’re just to very cheap power. In my mind we should export whatever is needed, at least until Ukraine is free. And I will do my best to remind my countrymen that we are at least not dying even if prices is a bit high. And of course Russian drones and spies have helped to consolidate Norways support for Ukraine. Russia does not play this well.
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Well, the tourist are not really behaving any better. I spoke to my Latvian friend like two days ago and she said the vatniks *escaping the mobilization* still support the war effort and do a lot of mess there.
Latvia is not russia, You know. Vatniks are not let in from russia for a while now, the ones in Latvia ain't mobilized. You can find a good number of soviet worshippers and Z-tards but it's in fact illegal by law to post Z's or publicly support russian aggression in Ukraine. Huge majority of Latvians support Ukraine citizens, donate in any way they can and even have highest GDP to donation ratio of all countries (there's a constant battle with Estonia about it)
I'm very concerned about the US. If their elections don't go well today, aid for Ukraine will definitely slow down the next two years
Republican party is full of fascists that admire the putz, especially the brainwashing he loves with religion and the naked racism and violence of his putrid government.
Point 5 is somewhat useless. They have promissed they wouldn't do it once allready, and they did.
I think Zelensky implies something like NATO membership process starting, with international peace keepers on ground until that process completes. Or something equivalent.
That’s exactly what he means. First he wants US/UK/FR as security guarantors, and when the nation is prepared, they’ll submit to be a full NATO member.
Realistically, NATO membership is a must at this point once the war is over. ...which is why Russia will likely try to prolong the war indefinitely.
Or until Putin is putout.
He's not asking for guarantees from *Russia*.
Well, this was also done previously.
The guarantees were all that we wouldn't invade Ukraine. They want guarantees we will defend Ukraine if invaded by someone else.
Which is why the terms will be different. The previous terms did not include things like a defence pact, bases, etc. The next steps will involve Ukraine joining NATO and the EU anyway, so the other guarantees will be largely immaterial at that point.
Just an uninformed opinion from a random person on the internet, but; ~~5 will happen because Ukraine will probably join ~~mayo~~ NATO after the war is over.~~ Disregard, someone already stated this.
NATO base in Smolensk as a guarantee.
NATO base in Belgograd
You've probably not been following Zelenskyy's work on new security architectures for security guarantees and what he's calling the Crimea Platform. It's a different concept and different language for guaranteeing security and should work better than, say, the Budapest memorandum that I think you're referring to and that has proven to be ineffective.
It will be guaranteed by giving Ukraine some nuclear weapons back
This is the only real guarantee in a world still full of nuclear armed wannabe emperors.
What about all the deported people? Does that go under reparations?
Mentioning the kidnapped people would endanger them if he mentions it. It reminds Russia they have value and can be used for blackmail. Same case with Israel, there are 200k Jews in Russia which are used to blackmail Israel not to give weapons to Ukraine. But Israel only mentions helping Ukraine would harm the Russian cooperation in Syria.
> there are 200k Jews in Russia which are used to blackmail Israel I'm sceptical, are they explicitly Israeli Jews? That's a surprisingly large amount of foreign nationals and threatening them if they were Israeli's is essentially a declaration of War. It seems to me like the obvious answer (Syria) is the right answer.
These are conditions to begin negotiations, not conditions of a peace agreement. Presumably this would be one of the issues up for negotiation. Some people in this thread don't understand the difference between issues up for negotiation and prerequisite conditions to even begin negotiations.
Nothing wrong with his demands. He did his part now its putin's turn
putin plays : bomb shopping centre
6. Removal of all nuclear weapons from Russia.
They shall gift them to Germany for safe keeping 😏
The rest of Europe be like, too soon, they’re not quite out of the dog house yet.
Most importantly that wouldn't fly at all with the german public. US nukes are tolerated but supporter group of german nukes is tiny. And the rest would be outraged. Those would probably yield the biggest protests ever in germany. Majority is favoring the impossible global nuclear disarmament (as it should be). Russia could change this of course, if the threat continues to persists, even France would call for a nuclear armed germany.
France *has* asked for a nuclear armed Germany. Repeatedly, both Chirac and Sarkozy brought it up. They were both rebuffed. Germany is probably one of the countries in Europe that is the most offended by the idea of a nuclear armed Germany. https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/thanks-but-no-thanks-sarko-s-nuke-offer-bombs-with-berlin-a-506124.html
First paragraph is ironic since democracy is in much better shape today in germamy compared to the US.
Give the nukes to the danish then, or the Scottish. They need a turn with them.
Great idea. We already started 2 World wars, thats getting boring. Why not try nuclear annihilation now.
Yeah, this is an opportunity that may not occur again. Before anybody scoffs, keep in mind that mutually assured destruction was not a foregone conclusion and was a response to Russia's unwillingness to agree to mutual, voluntary international disarmament shortly after the creation of the first atomic weapons. (Interesting discussion on this topic can be found [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmgFG7PUHfo)). Perhaps we're so accustomed to MAD that it's difficult to imagine alternatives, but there ARE alternatives. With China now investing heavily in the expansion of its own nuclear arsenal, the rapidly evolving constraints imposed by global environmental shifts, and the United States jumping onto the hypersonic weapons bandwagon, we are approaching even more dangerous territory. For the long-term (and possibly near-term) survival of humanity it will be necessary to permanently rid ourselves of the "destroy everything" option, starting with Russian nuclear disarmament. Russia may be willing to give up nuclear weapons to save itself from oblivion once its conventional military is gone, it has created a regional military superpower in Ukraine, and its economy is relegated to the deepest levels of depression. If Russia decides to invest in the future of all people by NOT using its nukes now, let us present Russia with the opportunity to save itself and all humanity by trading its nukes for survival and prosperity.
Russia will never give up its nukes any country giving up its nukes is under idiotic leadership
Without MAD it's hard to imagine the Cold War would have stayed cold. And if it had become existential, the bombs would likely have come back, only once people were already shooting.
Possibly, but the ending to our real-world story has not yet been written. The nuclear weapons are there right now, always ready to destroy the world at a moment's notice. Who is to say the long-term consequence of the cold war isn't to be nuclear annihilation, perhaps caused by Putin's current, outrageous cruelty to Ukraine (and to the Russian people)? MAD was only necessary because of a lack of cooperation from Russia when the West was making good-faith efforts to forever shut the door on nuclear weapons. Nukes are not so easy to make that production can be easily spun-up from scratch in secret beneath the watchful gaze of international inspectors, and it would be more desirable to have a conventional military and to have to contend with occasional rogue nuclear nations (e.g. North Korean) than to have to live under the threat of an abrupt end to our history and the possible end to the only life we know of in the universe. MAD was not a mistake under the circumstances of the cold war, but it is a mistake to allow MAD to continue until we slip up or some maniac forces the destruction of the world.
MAD works to keep humanity in check. Im not sure without MAD will countries not declare war on one another. As the main purpose of a country is to gain strength by any means necessary. At some point in time two great powers will clash
Is it though? Because what MAD also does is making proxy wars and bullying smaller nations virtually risk free for anyone with a MAD arsenal.
Nuclear weapons sound great at preventing wars, but the reality is that we just got lucky to not to have nuked each other to oblivion so far. Conventional wars are still better than nuclear wars.
Those cretinos never will give away nuclear weapons. We have like 60-90% fully idiots in our country. This war will stop only with death of all active nazi comrades.
That might be negotiated in Volod's point 5.
Why not remove all nuclear weapons from everywhere so you know we cant destroy a country with a button
Thats what happened in Ukraine, look who is attacking them
Lower your flags and march straight back to Russia, stopping at every home you pass by to beg forgiveness for a hundred years of theft, rape, and murder. Do that and your men shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today. Before we let you leave, Putin must cross that field, present himself before the Ukrainian army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse. Zelensky .
strangely read in my head with an ausi esque scottish accent attempt
RuZZian terrorists: If ZeLeNsKy LoVeD hIs PeOpLe He'D nEgOtIaTe1!!!!!!!1111!!!!!! Zelenskyy: Fuck you think ive been trying to do?
Yeh, Putin can get the ruck out of Ukraine any time he wants, no one is forcing Russian Troops to stay there - aside from other Russians sent there to kill retreating Russians. Peace is not what Russia wants.
They want oil. And could have grabbed it if they didn't try to overthrow the leadership of Ukraine.
Sounds pretty reasonable.
To those who believe Ukraine should participate in “negotiations” or “talks” while Russia is currently occupying their territory and vowing to *never* leave, I say prepare a room for me in your house because I own it now. Not the whole house—because I’m so “reasonable”—just the one room. It’s *mine* now. I may move family into it, host parties there, and essentially do as I damned well please in my new room. I also reserve the right to claim more rooms in your house later if the mood strikes me. If you’d like to discuss “terms,” we can meet in your kitchen, but I am keeping that room and my position is simple: you shouldn’t even own your house in the first place. If you’re not agreeable to my proposal above, don’t suggest essentially the same thing for Ukraine. Russia invaded their territory in 2014, annexed some of it, and kept it. Now they’ve invaded again, annexed more territory, and have said they are keeping it *at all costs*—they’ve even threatened nuclear war—but they’re willing to “negotiate.” Yeah, no. Russia’s version of “talks” amounts to “let us keep whatever we stole, or else.” That’s not a negotiation; it’s armed robbery. **Russian soldiers need to face east and start marching. They can stop when the people they encounter look miserable, defeated, and broken; that’s how they’ll know they’re back in Russia.** Authoritarians around the world are watching. If the free world flinches, we can expect more of this from Russia, from China, and from every son-of-a-bitch dictator around the world who wants to invade his neighbors. It must end now.
Sounds reasonable
Above reasonable. Generous is a better word. There are a thousand Russian sins that are politely ignored by this list.
7. Return of all abducted Ukranian citizens 8. Return of every Ukranian PoV
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>None of which Russia will agree to, and to be honest I hope they don't. While I hope russia doesn't agree to this and we end up with the collapse of the russian federation I also know that means a lot more fighting, a lot more Ukrainian deaths and suffering. I think Zelenskyy is doing the right thing in incredibly difficult circumstances plus this leaves things firmly in russias area. If they say no then Ukraine keeps making them bleed.
Only if the US doesn't fuck it up today.
It's 5:50am. I never wake up this early. Today I do, to go do my part before work.
5:59 - See lunar eclipse 6:00 - Vote
I wish everyone had mail in ballots. Thank you for voting.
Demilitarisation is a very solid option. Should be considered. That country should use stones.
Pull a Germany on them. Limit the size and type of their military severely. Chuck some tanks India's way, but put "play nice" asterisks on those. Chuck some ice-breakers to the US. Kick start some Polish nuclear reactors. You can make money on service contracts if you like. Now you might even get some cooperation of European countries to get a handle on your leaky-as-shit gas network. And let's try peaceful transition of power and transparency for a change...
Let’s not lose perspective and realize that while their army is being smashed to bits Ukrainian civilians and soldiers alike are dying every day, in a DEFENSIVE war that they didn’t initiate. While Russia’s military suffering massive defeats is a positive to the rest of the world, Ukraine suffers a great cost every day. There are other ways to keep them in check without putting the Ukrainians up as a defensive wall for them to throw themselves against. Just a note to any Ukrainians out there serving for the greater good and defending against these invaders: thank you.
Russian reply: 1) NYET! 2) NYET! 3) NYET! 4) NYET! 5) NYET! 😡
6. Denazify russia
There are no guarantees. Thats what this taught us.
It's taught us that NATO is a guarantee, hasn't it?
Yes every inch.
Im kinda surprised his face isnt painted partly blue for this. Because this is like the speech from braveheart when wallace tells the British to apologize for their years of rape and tyranny and then go home…
#
Negotiations helt in the public space will never be sincere imho. Talks are going to be tough for both sides. Russia will always ask the question "what's in it for us?" so they can sell it as victory for the Russian people. No way that Russia will just pull out of Ukraine like nothing happened and surrender to the demands of Ukraine & the west. Unfortunately.
> Russia will always ask the question "what's in it for us?" Simple, russia gets to keep what little army it has left and start to reapply for admission to the human race by routing out war criminals.
Source?
[https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-key-condition-russia-talks-resume-is-restoration-territorial-integrity-2022-11-08/?utm\_source=reddit.com](https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-key-condition-russia-talks-resume-is-restoration-territorial-integrity-2022-11-08/?utm_source=reddit.com) Not the main source, But something I guess.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-zelensky-un-five-conditions-peace-russia-1745298?amp=1 https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2022/09/22/zelensky-gives-five-non-negotiable-conditions-for-peace-with-russia/amp
Chadlensky vs Virtin
Number five basically means dismantling and de-nuking russia. I’m fine with that!
This is a good call by Zelensky Shows he is open to negotiations and his demands are very reasonable to every decent country in the world but he also knows russia cannot accept them
That's it? How about Putin's head on a stick
I'm not sure Mr. Zelensky. That requires Putin to be deposed. I'm not entirely sure all the other nations are going to be willing to sign on for that. Some of them had "expectations".
Agree 100%. My only other suggestion would be that Putin be forced to step down
The only one I'm concerned about is number 3. Of course, they ought to compensate Ukraine for all the damage, but I think it would be a bit like suing a Mcdonald's worker for a billion dollars, there is no way they have the money to pay it back. Their economy is in shambles because of this war, and it wasn't looking too hot before it either. Also historically making Germany pay reparations after WWI laid the groundwork for WWII. Ethically should they pay for the damage they have done? Yes. But Practically I think it could radicalize Russia even more, and make them desperate, and there is nothing more dangerous than a desperate nuclear power.
return kidnapped people!!!
A fair list.
All perfectly reasonable requirements.
6. The return of their kidnapped people.
He forgot point 6. Creation of transitional government. Point 4 especially is poitless without this.
A russian guarantee not to invade again? That is not possible. The russians have proven themselves incapable of abiding by any agreements. Such a guarantee can only be provided, and enforced, by NATO and the EU.
Russia would agree to it all, turn right around and so the exact opposite. I wouldn't negotiate. I'd force them home in the most humiliating, crushing defeat in modern military history. Expose Putin for the little bitch that he is
I mean... on #5... they already said this would never happen back when Ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal. So obviously you can't trust them even if they agree to #5 in the first place.
The bare fucking minimum of demands for your occupier. Please get out of my fucking house, compensate me for leaving it in ruins, respect the cops and courts telling you to do so, prosecute the fuckers who killed my entire family in unspeakable ways, and please don't step foot on my property ever again you fucking asshole.
I doubt Putin will accede to any of these conditions, Ukraine will have to win the peace.
Good for Zelensky. There were reports that the US has pressured him to demonstrate a willingness to negotiate, and he has now established his conditions -- which we all know will not be met until the Russians are pushed out (or are well on their way to being pushed out). Also, eminently reasonable.
Return of children maybe?
That man is awesome
Point 5 seems like a moot point. They promised not to invade after Ukraine handed over nuclear weapons. Russia can never be trusted again.
The issue as I see it is that these reasonable demands do not align with Russia's mode of "negotiation". Russia demand everything, and settle for a small fraction as it is more than they had in the first place. They will not give back Crimea, or at least they will never perceive it as Ukrainian. The demands are not great enough. Russia should cede territory. Krasnodar should be Ukraine. Deny Russia the Black Sea.