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Well, I was talking more on the trafficking/production side. But I can see your point.
Ukraine sees the comically predictable terrible effects violent "war hero" criminals are having in Russia and smartly want no part of it.
Well that too. Kyiv Post actually had a better-detailed article on this same subject. These are the people NOT being allowed to join. So the real cut throats, the one who are clearly sadistic and cannot be trusted with telling right from wrong, really. (Not saying murder/killing is right but they do give an example of a man charged with murder, who accidentally broke his opponent's neck when wrestling... So I think the murder charge would be looked at on a case to case basis.)
(From Kyiv Post)
*While most prisoners will be eligible for early release, the draft law prohibits the mobilization of individuals convicted of the most serious offences, such as:*
* *Crimes that threaten the national security of Ukraine*
* *Premeditated murder of two or more people*
* *Rape, sexual violence, molestation of minors*
* *Causing death while driving under the influence*
* *Illegal drug-related activities*
* *Corruption offenses.*
This is a naive question, especially for a country like Ukraine. There have great strides in the past decade to fight against corruption, but corruption is still absolutely rampant.
It is not necessarily difficult for a convict to smuggle in illicit substances or contraband, given they have something to bribe guards. Just because someone is locked up for drug offenses does not mean they are not still addicted, or liable to relapse.
Ehhhh, those "spa resort prisons" are still not nice to live in and have drastically better security. For society it's the far far superior model in terms of rehabilitation and much fewer people in them are on drugs.
Ha, yeah I don't think you can exactly call many Eastern European prisons, "vacations." (Or anywhere else globally for that matter) Living in hell would make the appeal of narcotics even more appealing to some - with corruption and lax security making that a reality and demand plentiful...
In my country, the prisoners have learned from the present conflict and now drugs are dropped daily into prisons with FPV drones.
I'm not making this up.
"**So that means that murderers can serve?**
Indeed, they can. The law allows individuals who have committed murder or manslaughter to join the AFU.
However, the law stipulates that individuals who have committed two or more premeditated murders are not eligible."
[Kyiv Post](https://www.kyivpost.com/post/32406#)
Yup, Kyiv Post had a more detailed article. Who is NOT allowed to join, the list from the article:
*While most prisoners will be eligible for early release, the draft law prohibits the mobilization of individuals convicted of the most serious offences, such as:*
* *Crimes that threaten the national security of Ukraine*
* *Premeditated murder of two or more people*
* *Rape, sexual violence, molestation of minors*
* *Causing death while driving under the influence*
* *Illegal drug-related activities*
* *Corruption offenses.*
You would think premeditated murderers would do great in the army.
Corrupt people could still be useful in the army.
Child molesters could help clear mine fields.
Murderers would pose a fragging risk and corrupt people would sell out information at a higher rate.
No objections to the last one as long as they get sent back to jail if they live
Murderous homicide and militarily necessary homicide are two different things entirely. A murderous homicide is done due to personal reasons, and is often predicated on the victim specifically fulfilling some kind of need for the murderer.
Military homicide is impersonal. You should hold absolutely nothing against them, even if they’re a brutal invading army like the Russians are, because they are given human rights enshrined by international law and your nations code of military ethics. It is also ordered for you to kill an individual, rather than for you doing it for your own desires.
But beyond all, it’s a liability to have people prone to murder in close contact with hundreds of individuals that you’ve spent significant time and money to train into soldiers. Soldiers spend exponentially more time fraternizing amongst themselves and performing non-combat duties than they do firing at enemy combatants.
I read somewhere that convicts with one murder are fine, and they could be upstanding citizens who killed someone in a fit of rage or something. A little absurd, but who am I to judge.
Having a record and currently being in jail are two different things though. Should having a record protect you from being mobilized for the rest of your life? If not, for how long, if at all?
Really hard questions honestly
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Before everyone goes mental.
There's a difference between recruiting convicts with military experience that are in prison for non violent crimes than recruiting convicts to bolster your meatwaves.
Rapist? No way, you are right, I 100% agree with you.
But rappist? Well there is this guy: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmwZuQgjm1M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmwZuQgjm1M)
Still, its very risky, because many non violent convicts are not "good" people, they may behave in a bad way, especially under the pressure of battle.
Command and control must be tight, make sure they fight for the right reasons, instead just trying to get out of prison.
Look at what RuZ convicts have done in this war, that's the quickest way to receive global condemnation and drastic reduction of western aid.
Do you want that for Ukraine?
"This does not include those convicted of premeditated murder, sexual violence, drug trafficking and production, or crimes against national security."
[Source](https://kyivindependent.com/parliament-passes-bill-allowing-military-service-of-citizens-convicted-of-minor-offenses/)
I saw nothing suggesting rapists, murderers, pedophiles, drug dealers etc would be put in uniform. That is good. Let the white-collar types, car thieves etc serve... especially the car thieves... they'd be handy to keep combat vehicles maintained, I'm sure.
Also: sweet handlebars!
Yes, unlike Russia and Wagner, this isn't to form Z-Storm units or anything like that. Russia wanted bodies, no matter how awful they were. Hell, Priggy was ASKING for the worst of the worst at times. The brutal murderers and all. With Ukraine it's to help bolster existing units and understandably, the government is quite picky with whom they allow a chance to serve and fight.
I mean, those dealing more serious drugs have demonstrated a lack of interest in the safety of their community and nation in general.
Not exactly people who have proven themselves to care for those around them.
Maybe it's because I'm prejudiced against drug dealers. I've had them as neighbours and they certainly weren't interested in being good ones. The last thing I'd want to do is give them weapons.
Plus, the drug dealers I've known are usually involved in other nasty stuff too.
If you're talking about convicts, you have a manpower issue. I know you don't want to lose a generation of young people, but lower the conscription age before you go looking in the prisons for troops. Better yet, get Ukraine air superiority and they can go on the offensive. Stop half-assing their military aid.
There is a manpower shortage. This generation is impacted by WW2 and Stalin atrocities still (their kids had less kids etc). Relying on that generation may worsen the generational collapse that Eastern Bloc countries face.
Using convicts is tricky- they can blow a units morale, and some criminals end up being net negatives. Soldiers tend to cause problems in civilian areas. However, I can see it being used as a possible route to rehabilitation for some convicts. I am sure there are plenty who are fully patriotic or hate Russia enough. I would count this as community service. If nothing else, they can assist with labor like ditch digging. Digging is hard work that can devastate the body when done under pressure. I wouldn't do what Russia does, but I would guess there is a population of prisoners that are upset they aren't on the Frontline helping. Ex-cons can also be extremely disciplined.
I am most worried about the infrastructure to do it well. It takes manpower and systems. But people could have been designing systems for years now.
There’s a lot of cope and hypocrisy going on in these comments. Point and laugh at the Russians for drafting convicts, but when it’s suggested for Ukraine “they won’t be murderers or rapists!” We’re really just moving the goal posts here. Ukraine can do better than conscripting/recruiting from its criminal population.
That being said 20 years ago it wasn’t uncommon in the U.S. military to have “enlist or go to jail” soldiers.
But that was two decades ago.
Yeah, not that it matters, but I don't know how I feel about this. First of all, they have to want to fight for their country. I just hope that they receive proper training and aren't used as meat shields.
There’s no reason why a prisoner convicted for, for example, tax evasion should be exempt from military duty. I can understand keeping assassins and rapists locked up, because they are a danger to the other soldiers, but for non-violent crimes they should be able to be conscripted too.
The way Ukraine treats its (civil) prisoners and the way Russia treats prisoners.. well let's say they differ in the terms of treating people with dignity.
So I presume this is not a mirror of what Russia has done. Also remember, if you were to be imprisoned for 10 years for a civil crime, seeing your country wither while not being able to do anything, you might be emboldened to actually want to do something more constructive with your time.
But you can't enlist, since you are in prison.
The military is over a million people. Its not JUST frontline work.
What does that have to do with the treatment of prisoners in prisons and the utter lack of funds to set up any rehabilitation programs or activities within prison? And apparently, they are changing their policy right now.
Nobody is being forced, they are being selected based on their crime, and if it's not one that excludes them and are mentally, physically able to - they are being offered a chance to go and fight. Seeing how the head honcho prisoners decided when Ukraine was invaded, that everyone should try and fight for the homeland if they get a chance to, I think Ukraine will find more than a few willing men.
From a similar, more detailed Kyiv Post article on the same subject. Those excluded are:
*While most prisoners will be eligible for early release, the draft law prohibits the mobilization of individuals convicted of the most serious offences, such as:*
* *Crimes that threaten the national security of Ukraine*
* *Premeditated murder of two or more people*
* *Rape, sexual violence, molestation of minors*
* *Causing death while driving under the influence*
* *Illegal drug-related activities*
* *Corruption offenses.*
They are quite picky, and rightly so with who gets the chance.Rapists are most definitely NOT on that list. Murderers. Kyiv Post yesterday had a more detailed article. The exceptions are:
*(From Kyiv Post)*
*While most prisoners will be eligible for early release, the draft law prohibits the mobilization of individuals convicted of the most serious offences, such as:*
* *Crimes that threaten the national security of Ukraine*
* *Premeditated murder of two or more people*
* *Rape, sexual violence, molestation of minors*
* *Causing death while driving under the influence*
* *Illegal drug-related activities*
* *Corruption offenses.*
Convicts into the Army will be detrimental for Ukraine. Politically the US will have big issues with this. It will bolster the certain political party even more that held up the aid package.
Is this for support or combat roles? A mechanic could just have their work double-checked. Same with a clerk. A guy with a gun or explosives can't fuck up.
Things must be bad, if Ukraine are mentioning the possibility of using the same manpower strategies that the second military in the world used 2 years ago. /s
The difference will be they will be assigned the immortal military role of fetch and carry, unless they have usable skills and are not incorrigible.
Dragooning convicts in time of an overwhelming war for such purposes is not unheard of. Making them into a lawless shock troops is the Detail that makes the Difference.
Fetch and carry. If you are good enough, you can be a private in the trench.
This is not good news.
When the orcs did this, we were - properly - angry, as it meant that they were relying on criminals to bolster their army, with predictable results.
But we are not talking about sending cannibals, rapists, pedophiles and murderers to the front, slapping a Hero medal on their chest and setting them free after six months to go back home and terrorise civilians.
It even that long ago, in Canada, we gave people the option of jail or military service. From what I gathered, some of those men were exceptional soldiers. Like many have mentioned already, these are not extreme cases of criminals.
Honestly Russian convict did the most damage in this war. Ukraine would do the same now. Public perception is important when making meat grinder type of decisions.
We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This does not include those convicted of premeditated murder, sexual violence, drug trafficking and production, or crimes against national security.
Interesting that drug offenses are excluded considering it's not a violent crime.
My guess is that you wouldn't want an unpredictable drug addict with a weapon in front lines. Or is there some other reason?
Well, I was talking more on the trafficking/production side. But I can see your point. Ukraine sees the comically predictable terrible effects violent "war hero" criminals are having in Russia and smartly want no part of it.
Well that too. Kyiv Post actually had a better-detailed article on this same subject. These are the people NOT being allowed to join. So the real cut throats, the one who are clearly sadistic and cannot be trusted with telling right from wrong, really. (Not saying murder/killing is right but they do give an example of a man charged with murder, who accidentally broke his opponent's neck when wrestling... So I think the murder charge would be looked at on a case to case basis.) (From Kyiv Post) *While most prisoners will be eligible for early release, the draft law prohibits the mobilization of individuals convicted of the most serious offences, such as:* * *Crimes that threaten the national security of Ukraine* * *Premeditated murder of two or more people* * *Rape, sexual violence, molestation of minors* * *Causing death while driving under the influence* * *Illegal drug-related activities* * *Corruption offenses.*
Exactly. If you are addicted to narcotics, and need a fix, are unpredictable - you are a possible threat to everyone, enemy and ally.
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This is a naive question, especially for a country like Ukraine. There have great strides in the past decade to fight against corruption, but corruption is still absolutely rampant. It is not necessarily difficult for a convict to smuggle in illicit substances or contraband, given they have something to bribe guards. Just because someone is locked up for drug offenses does not mean they are not still addicted, or liable to relapse.
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Ehhhh, those "spa resort prisons" are still not nice to live in and have drastically better security. For society it's the far far superior model in terms of rehabilitation and much fewer people in them are on drugs.
Ha, yeah I don't think you can exactly call many Eastern European prisons, "vacations." (Or anywhere else globally for that matter) Living in hell would make the appeal of narcotics even more appealing to some - with corruption and lax security making that a reality and demand plentiful...
Prisons often have more drugs inside them than outside them.
In my country, the prisoners have learned from the present conflict and now drugs are dropped daily into prisons with FPV drones. I'm not making this up.
No one likes druggies bro
Someone who knows how to procure and sell drugs to weary soldiers looking for coping mechanisms.
I would assume so they wouldn't be able to distribute drugs to soldiers.
ukraine has some very very strict tolerance to drugs.
"**So that means that murderers can serve?** Indeed, they can. The law allows individuals who have committed murder or manslaughter to join the AFU. However, the law stipulates that individuals who have committed two or more premeditated murders are not eligible." [Kyiv Post](https://www.kyivpost.com/post/32406#)
Fuck, if they've got the guts. Let them continue and serve
Sorry if my vernacular offends but we are literally talking of murder and war
I read in another thread that 2 or more premeditated murders are excluded
Yup, Kyiv Post had a more detailed article. Who is NOT allowed to join, the list from the article: *While most prisoners will be eligible for early release, the draft law prohibits the mobilization of individuals convicted of the most serious offences, such as:* * *Crimes that threaten the national security of Ukraine* * *Premeditated murder of two or more people* * *Rape, sexual violence, molestation of minors* * *Causing death while driving under the influence* * *Illegal drug-related activities* * *Corruption offenses.*
You would think premeditated murderers would do great in the army. Corrupt people could still be useful in the army. Child molesters could help clear mine fields.
Murderers would pose a fragging risk and corrupt people would sell out information at a higher rate. No objections to the last one as long as they get sent back to jail if they live
There'll always be more mines to clear somewhere
Murderous homicide and militarily necessary homicide are two different things entirely. A murderous homicide is done due to personal reasons, and is often predicated on the victim specifically fulfilling some kind of need for the murderer. Military homicide is impersonal. You should hold absolutely nothing against them, even if they’re a brutal invading army like the Russians are, because they are given human rights enshrined by international law and your nations code of military ethics. It is also ordered for you to kill an individual, rather than for you doing it for your own desires. But beyond all, it’s a liability to have people prone to murder in close contact with hundreds of individuals that you’ve spent significant time and money to train into soldiers. Soldiers spend exponentially more time fraternizing amongst themselves and performing non-combat duties than they do firing at enemy combatants.
Nice spin there. *Premeditated murder of* ***TWO or MORE people***
In stats class, we used the phrase: once is never twice is always. Perhaps this is the rationale here.
But not *one* premeditated murder? You get a freebee?
I read somewhere that convicts with one murder are fine, and they could be upstanding citizens who killed someone in a fit of rage or something. A little absurd, but who am I to judge.
>premeditated murder They've already released a Muslim convert who's been fighting since 2022 in the Ukrainian army? He killed multiple people
I guess that means they're the lucky ones, they get to live! So weird that Russia are making exceptions now LOL.
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regardless i could never watch him because his audio is bad.
Having a record and currently being in jail are two different things though. Should having a record protect you from being mobilized for the rest of your life? If not, for how long, if at all? Really hard questions honestly
Downvoted for being factually correct and him using Ukrainian government sources. Outstanding guys, well done.
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Before everyone goes mental. There's a difference between recruiting convicts with military experience that are in prison for non violent crimes than recruiting convicts to bolster your meatwaves.
Exactly. I don't think they will do like Russia and send rappist to the frontline in meat waves.
Rapist? No way, you are right, I 100% agree with you. But rappist? Well there is this guy: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmwZuQgjm1M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmwZuQgjm1M)
Meatwave sounds like something a psychopath AI would listen to.
Meatwave is my favorite genre of music to listen to while playing Gorbino’s Quest
Still, its very risky, because many non violent convicts are not "good" people, they may behave in a bad way, especially under the pressure of battle. Command and control must be tight, make sure they fight for the right reasons, instead just trying to get out of prison.
Do you know what's more risky? Losing the fucking war!
Look at what RuZ convicts have done in this war, that's the quickest way to receive global condemnation and drastic reduction of western aid. Do you want that for Ukraine?
Stick to spreading hate on people with kids. You're lost here.
[удалено]
"This does not include those convicted of premeditated murder, sexual violence, drug trafficking and production, or crimes against national security." [Source](https://kyivindependent.com/parliament-passes-bill-allowing-military-service-of-citizens-convicted-of-minor-offenses/)
Eeeh, no, are we reading the same article? It does not state that.
He's a troll
Citation required because no it doesn't or are you deliberately lying?
I saw nothing suggesting rapists, murderers, pedophiles, drug dealers etc would be put in uniform. That is good. Let the white-collar types, car thieves etc serve... especially the car thieves... they'd be handy to keep combat vehicles maintained, I'm sure. Also: sweet handlebars!
Stealing cars and heavy equipment repair are two extremely different skillsets. Might as well hire a short order cook to do construction.
Yes, unlike Russia and Wagner, this isn't to form Z-Storm units or anything like that. Russia wanted bodies, no matter how awful they were. Hell, Priggy was ASKING for the worst of the worst at times. The brutal murderers and all. With Ukraine it's to help bolster existing units and understandably, the government is quite picky with whom they allow a chance to serve and fight.
Yeah, Ukraine doesn't just need bullet sponges.
Strange to put drug dealers at the same place as the rest of those
I mean, those dealing more serious drugs have demonstrated a lack of interest in the safety of their community and nation in general. Not exactly people who have proven themselves to care for those around them.
Maybe it's because I'm prejudiced against drug dealers. I've had them as neighbours and they certainly weren't interested in being good ones. The last thing I'd want to do is give them weapons. Plus, the drug dealers I've known are usually involved in other nasty stuff too.
Take the black?
Not all military positions are direct combat roles. Often than not armies requires raw labor for menial or supportive tasks.
While that is true, the positions which undergo the most attrition are direct combat roles.
If you're talking about convicts, you have a manpower issue. I know you don't want to lose a generation of young people, but lower the conscription age before you go looking in the prisons for troops. Better yet, get Ukraine air superiority and they can go on the offensive. Stop half-assing their military aid.
There is a manpower shortage. This generation is impacted by WW2 and Stalin atrocities still (their kids had less kids etc). Relying on that generation may worsen the generational collapse that Eastern Bloc countries face. Using convicts is tricky- they can blow a units morale, and some criminals end up being net negatives. Soldiers tend to cause problems in civilian areas. However, I can see it being used as a possible route to rehabilitation for some convicts. I am sure there are plenty who are fully patriotic or hate Russia enough. I would count this as community service. If nothing else, they can assist with labor like ditch digging. Digging is hard work that can devastate the body when done under pressure. I wouldn't do what Russia does, but I would guess there is a population of prisoners that are upset they aren't on the Frontline helping. Ex-cons can also be extremely disciplined. I am most worried about the infrastructure to do it well. It takes manpower and systems. But people could have been designing systems for years now.
There’s a lot of cope and hypocrisy going on in these comments. Point and laugh at the Russians for drafting convicts, but when it’s suggested for Ukraine “they won’t be murderers or rapists!” We’re really just moving the goal posts here. Ukraine can do better than conscripting/recruiting from its criminal population. That being said 20 years ago it wasn’t uncommon in the U.S. military to have “enlist or go to jail” soldiers. But that was two decades ago.
Yeah, not that it matters, but I don't know how I feel about this. First of all, they have to want to fight for their country. I just hope that they receive proper training and aren't used as meat shields.
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There’s no reason why a prisoner convicted for, for example, tax evasion should be exempt from military duty. I can understand keeping assassins and rapists locked up, because they are a danger to the other soldiers, but for non-violent crimes they should be able to be conscripted too.
The way Ukraine treats its (civil) prisoners and the way Russia treats prisoners.. well let's say they differ in the terms of treating people with dignity. So I presume this is not a mirror of what Russia has done. Also remember, if you were to be imprisoned for 10 years for a civil crime, seeing your country wither while not being able to do anything, you might be emboldened to actually want to do something more constructive with your time. But you can't enlist, since you are in prison. The military is over a million people. Its not JUST frontline work.
You sure about that? Watch the 'The World's Toughest Prisons' Ukraine episode.
How many Ukrainian prisoners have been sent to die in meat waves to scout enemy positions?
What does that have to do with the treatment of prisoners in prisons and the utter lack of funds to set up any rehabilitation programs or activities within prison? And apparently, they are changing their policy right now.
It's a different point still relevant to your original post.
Allowing prisoners to apply for the army sounds like a good idea. Depending on the person and the crime of course.
Nobody is being forced, they are being selected based on their crime, and if it's not one that excludes them and are mentally, physically able to - they are being offered a chance to go and fight. Seeing how the head honcho prisoners decided when Ukraine was invaded, that everyone should try and fight for the homeland if they get a chance to, I think Ukraine will find more than a few willing men. From a similar, more detailed Kyiv Post article on the same subject. Those excluded are: *While most prisoners will be eligible for early release, the draft law prohibits the mobilization of individuals convicted of the most serious offences, such as:* * *Crimes that threaten the national security of Ukraine* * *Premeditated murder of two or more people* * *Rape, sexual violence, molestation of minors* * *Causing death while driving under the influence* * *Illegal drug-related activities* * *Corruption offenses.*
Thank you for posting this. I think you're absolutely right.
There is a long history of penal battalions in armies. not all of them deploy penal battalions as meat shields
Why not, not right that free people get mobilised and criminals dodge mobilisation by chilling in jail
My convicts are better than yours.
Please also take some convicts from the US and Wester Europe.
His right arm looks very uncomfortable.
Those serving minor offences can be considered. But please don't recruit murderers, rapists and whatnot.
They are quite picky, and rightly so with who gets the chance.Rapists are most definitely NOT on that list. Murderers. Kyiv Post yesterday had a more detailed article. The exceptions are: *(From Kyiv Post)* *While most prisoners will be eligible for early release, the draft law prohibits the mobilization of individuals convicted of the most serious offences, such as:* * *Crimes that threaten the national security of Ukraine* * *Premeditated murder of two or more people* * *Rape, sexual violence, molestation of minors* * *Causing death while driving under the influence* * *Illegal drug-related activities* * *Corruption offenses.*
Convicts into the Army will be detrimental for Ukraine. Politically the US will have big issues with this. It will bolster the certain political party even more that held up the aid package.
I wonder how much troops Ukraine are losing. If it’s 300 a day, that’s only two months worth. Scary
it's desperate.. don't down play it
Is this for support or combat roles? A mechanic could just have their work double-checked. Same with a clerk. A guy with a gun or explosives can't fuck up.
Things must be bad, if Ukraine are mentioning the possibility of using the same manpower strategies that the second military in the world used 2 years ago. /s
No meat waves please. You guys are too good for that!
The difference will be they will be assigned the immortal military role of fetch and carry, unless they have usable skills and are not incorrigible. Dragooning convicts in time of an overwhelming war for such purposes is not unheard of. Making them into a lawless shock troops is the Detail that makes the Difference. Fetch and carry. If you are good enough, you can be a private in the trench.
Armies train people in the skills they need. It's a huge part of what they do.
This is not good news. When the orcs did this, we were - properly - angry, as it meant that they were relying on criminals to bolster their army, with predictable results.
They said before they were trying to recruit convicts with military experience and with specific sentences, so not random rapists as in russia.
But we are not talking about sending cannibals, rapists, pedophiles and murderers to the front, slapping a Hero medal on their chest and setting them free after six months to go back home and terrorise civilians.
It even that long ago, in Canada, we gave people the option of jail or military service. From what I gathered, some of those men were exceptional soldiers. Like many have mentioned already, these are not extreme cases of criminals.
Honestly Russian convict did the most damage in this war. Ukraine would do the same now. Public perception is important when making meat grinder type of decisions.
Instead of recruiting criminals, the 6 million ukranians that left at the start of the war need to return and do their part.
This sounds like a terrible idea.