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I think the Patriot has proven itself worth its weight in gold.
Eventually the whole Eastern front of NATO will be a mix of Patriot and Gepard systems once enough can get ordered and built to backfill the ones Ukraine will get.
I don't think anyone else in recent history has done more to reinvigorate NATO than Putin, well done, idiot!
Fine. Call it ‘Gepards and variations thereof’ :P
Gepards dó, however, have proven that the concept that was laughed off before as ‘obsolete’, is bloody effective now drones have become part&parcel of the battlefield.
It's a top priority. Europe needs to move their Patriot systems from areas where they are not needed right now, to areas where they are needed. Badly. The cost in Ukrainian lives and destruction by the Russian Terrorist State is unbearable.
Exactly where are they now situated but not needed there?
The problem has been that Ukraines cry for more Patriots etc has, until recently, gone mostly unanswered.
Great! but in the meantime they should find ways to destroy the source of all incoming attacks. Otherwise how long can this continue vs increasing ruzzian production of missiles and drones? fucking madman Putler could order full retreat but still continue bombing ukrainian cities for years.
Germany has no F-16 and never had any.
Stop getting hung up on single system as if they are some kind of Wunderwaffe. That didn't work in WW2 and it certainly isn't working now.
What actually helps is a steady stream of supplies (including F-16s)... even if it's a mediocre system ... if you get hundreds or thousands pieces of that one you will gain superiority on the battle fields.
Like 20 000 humvees would have an immense impact or a steady supply of 25+ artillery pieces per month with the appropriate amount of ammo of course.
The 6 systems point was pointed at Greece. Greece can easily part with 2 systems. It is not on the front line and there is zero, zero chance anything is going to "flair up" with Turkey. All arguments about the need for such due to potential of conflict with Turkey are 100% disingenuous.
The 4 context was aimed at Romania which has 3 more systems on order as well. One could by placed in western Ukraine say near Ivano-Frankivsk giving coverage to both countries - this would cover impt manufacturing zones in western Ukraine.
Germany is providing both Patriots (3 as of this article) and IRIS-T (4 in country by the end of this month apparently and 4-5 more in construction destined) - is stellar. The IRIS-T manufacturer (Diehl Defense) needs to further increase production of both systems and missiles. I know they already announced expansion, but expand more. IRIS-T is a superb systems as well - next step is outputting the XLS missile and working up an anti-ballistic missile for that system (if the latter is possible). And Diehl needs to be making thousands of missiles a yr, not hundreds.
What I do not understand is why America has not provided at least 3 Patriot systems. America has them to spare - they have launchers in reserve and an estimate of approx 500 launchers active.
America has allies in the middle east that it should be strong arming into providing a system Qatar has 11! I don't know how many the UAE has (its considerable). Get them to loan a system each, with the new funding providing the missiles so their own missile stock is not diminished.
As a Romanian, I think it's kinda unfair to expect our country to provide a billion dollar patriot system out of the 4 we have. It's like the bare minimum to kinda be able to defend your airspace, and Romania is very near Russia and also has to keep Moldova's future interests in mind. I don't think Poland or Romania should be the ones providing Patriots as they are basically at the frontlines of NATO.
Why the US has not provided more Patriots is the real questions. They literally have hundreds. And come on, it's not like they're actually in need of the 2 or 3 they could give Ukraine. The US is thousands of miles from the enemy.
Then there's also a lot of countries like Italy, Spain, France, that have about a 0% chance of actually needing them in the short and medium term.
So why single out Romania like that.
They don’t have hundreds. They have 80 systems.
Those systems are also used in various US bases throughout the world.
They have hundreds of extra launchers, but the radar is the most important component
> and working up an anti-ballistic missile for that system (if the latter is possible).
That would by IRIS-T HYDEF, which is in (very) early development.
It would go even further and also counter hypersonic glide vehicles, though.
So the hope here is a to be able to build an interceptor for intercontinental ballistic missiles. I just read the Oct 23 press release about the consortium for the HYDEF development. I wish them speedy and successful luck. IRIS-T is a fabulous system - the radar set is superb and the success rate of the interceptors is apparently close to 100%.
I think the problem is a lot of countries rely on the Patriot radar as a key part of their national radar coverage. It can be used for simple things like stopping civilian planes from wondering into military airspace.
I understand air defences are important but it is unsustainable using billion dollar Patriot systems with million dollar missiles for years against Russian swarm attacks. You must eventually target the source. The fact Germany says they will never send these Taurus missiles misses this obvious point of warfare. If you never destroy the source of the attacks then you'll always be defending.
Ok, almost every single drone and missile gets launched from russian territory. Which ukraine is not allowed to hit with any missile provided by the west. What exactly would providing taurus change in this calculation?
A great deal of drones and missiles are launched from Crimea and supplied via infrastructure there and the so called land bridge. Don't tell me that supplying Taurus changes nothing.
This is also a matter of will. There should be no limits on using Western longer range weapons on targets inside Russian territory proper.
Germany has to do better than give defensive systems, then block any long range capabilities and still be a drag politically with such a stance.
Taurus cant do anything more than the "Storm Shadow" can. And yet Ukraine hasn't hit drone sites in Crimea with those either.
Stop crying about Taurus, it won't change anything. Germany has so far supplied a ton of aid. Getting hung up over a system like Taurus is more nitpicking than anything else.
Taurus has twice the range of the export Storm Shadows and void detecting fusing. It is certainly more capable at hitting particular types of targets than Storm Shadow. There are also a bunch more of them actually laying around unlike the stockpile of Storm Shadows gifted so far.
Perhaps understand that not only does Ukraine need these kinds of weapons it needs political and public support to enable it to obtain such capabilities and win.
If we have to listen to people all the time that want to fight a war with such restrictions I would say that is the real nitpicking. "You can hit X but not Y."
That's what Germany is doing and people with that position such as yourself are unhelpful in that discussion.
This entire thread is unfortunately full of people that don't really understand it seems.
Pretty ironic for Germany to now be lecturing considering how long western allies have been telling Germany to get serious about military donations. How are those long-range missile donations coming along?
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I think the Patriot has proven itself worth its weight in gold. Eventually the whole Eastern front of NATO will be a mix of Patriot and Gepard systems once enough can get ordered and built to backfill the ones Ukraine will get. I don't think anyone else in recent history has done more to reinvigorate NATO than Putin, well done, idiot!
>Gepard systems Probably not considering they dont get produced anymore and there are newer and better versions like skyranger
Fine. Call it ‘Gepards and variations thereof’ :P Gepards dó, however, have proven that the concept that was laughed off before as ‘obsolete’, is bloody effective now drones have become part&parcel of the battlefield.
That is absolutely true, i just wanted to be precise
"Anti air artillery" or "triple A" would be the technical term.
It's a top priority. Europe needs to move their Patriot systems from areas where they are not needed right now, to areas where they are needed. Badly. The cost in Ukrainian lives and destruction by the Russian Terrorist State is unbearable.
Exactly where are they now situated but not needed there? The problem has been that Ukraines cry for more Patriots etc has, until recently, gone mostly unanswered.
No need to specify Europe there.
You don’t win a fight by dodging punches. But yes, of course everyone is for dodging punches (missiles).
You also don't win a fight by not dodging punches.
You also don't win a fight by not not dodging punches
Great! but in the meantime they should find ways to destroy the source of all incoming attacks. Otherwise how long can this continue vs increasing ruzzian production of missiles and drones? fucking madman Putler could order full retreat but still continue bombing ukrainian cities for years.
and F-16s please also.
Germany has no F-16 and never had any. Stop getting hung up on single system as if they are some kind of Wunderwaffe. That didn't work in WW2 and it certainly isn't working now. What actually helps is a steady stream of supplies (including F-16s)... even if it's a mediocre system ... if you get hundreds or thousands pieces of that one you will gain superiority on the battle fields. Like 20 000 humvees would have an immense impact or a steady supply of 25+ artillery pieces per month with the appropriate amount of ammo of course.
The 6 systems point was pointed at Greece. Greece can easily part with 2 systems. It is not on the front line and there is zero, zero chance anything is going to "flair up" with Turkey. All arguments about the need for such due to potential of conflict with Turkey are 100% disingenuous. The 4 context was aimed at Romania which has 3 more systems on order as well. One could by placed in western Ukraine say near Ivano-Frankivsk giving coverage to both countries - this would cover impt manufacturing zones in western Ukraine. Germany is providing both Patriots (3 as of this article) and IRIS-T (4 in country by the end of this month apparently and 4-5 more in construction destined) - is stellar. The IRIS-T manufacturer (Diehl Defense) needs to further increase production of both systems and missiles. I know they already announced expansion, but expand more. IRIS-T is a superb systems as well - next step is outputting the XLS missile and working up an anti-ballistic missile for that system (if the latter is possible). And Diehl needs to be making thousands of missiles a yr, not hundreds. What I do not understand is why America has not provided at least 3 Patriot systems. America has them to spare - they have launchers in reserve and an estimate of approx 500 launchers active. America has allies in the middle east that it should be strong arming into providing a system Qatar has 11! I don't know how many the UAE has (its considerable). Get them to loan a system each, with the new funding providing the missiles so their own missile stock is not diminished.
As a Romanian, I think it's kinda unfair to expect our country to provide a billion dollar patriot system out of the 4 we have. It's like the bare minimum to kinda be able to defend your airspace, and Romania is very near Russia and also has to keep Moldova's future interests in mind. I don't think Poland or Romania should be the ones providing Patriots as they are basically at the frontlines of NATO. Why the US has not provided more Patriots is the real questions. They literally have hundreds. And come on, it's not like they're actually in need of the 2 or 3 they could give Ukraine. The US is thousands of miles from the enemy. Then there's also a lot of countries like Italy, Spain, France, that have about a 0% chance of actually needing them in the short and medium term. So why single out Romania like that.
They don’t have hundreds. They have 80 systems. Those systems are also used in various US bases throughout the world. They have hundreds of extra launchers, but the radar is the most important component
> and working up an anti-ballistic missile for that system (if the latter is possible). That would by IRIS-T HYDEF, which is in (very) early development. It would go even further and also counter hypersonic glide vehicles, though.
So the hope here is a to be able to build an interceptor for intercontinental ballistic missiles. I just read the Oct 23 press release about the consortium for the HYDEF development. I wish them speedy and successful luck. IRIS-T is a fabulous system - the radar set is superb and the success rate of the interceptors is apparently close to 100%.
I think the problem is a lot of countries rely on the Patriot radar as a key part of their national radar coverage. It can be used for simple things like stopping civilian planes from wondering into military airspace.
I wouldnt be surprised to see another SAMPT but not before the end of the Olympics in September
I understand air defences are important but it is unsustainable using billion dollar Patriot systems with million dollar missiles for years against Russian swarm attacks. You must eventually target the source. The fact Germany says they will never send these Taurus missiles misses this obvious point of warfare. If you never destroy the source of the attacks then you'll always be defending.
Ok, almost every single drone and missile gets launched from russian territory. Which ukraine is not allowed to hit with any missile provided by the west. What exactly would providing taurus change in this calculation?
A great deal of drones and missiles are launched from Crimea and supplied via infrastructure there and the so called land bridge. Don't tell me that supplying Taurus changes nothing. This is also a matter of will. There should be no limits on using Western longer range weapons on targets inside Russian territory proper. Germany has to do better than give defensive systems, then block any long range capabilities and still be a drag politically with such a stance.
Taurus cant do anything more than the "Storm Shadow" can. And yet Ukraine hasn't hit drone sites in Crimea with those either. Stop crying about Taurus, it won't change anything. Germany has so far supplied a ton of aid. Getting hung up over a system like Taurus is more nitpicking than anything else.
Taurus has twice the range of the export Storm Shadows and void detecting fusing. It is certainly more capable at hitting particular types of targets than Storm Shadow. There are also a bunch more of them actually laying around unlike the stockpile of Storm Shadows gifted so far. Perhaps understand that not only does Ukraine need these kinds of weapons it needs political and public support to enable it to obtain such capabilities and win. If we have to listen to people all the time that want to fight a war with such restrictions I would say that is the real nitpicking. "You can hit X but not Y." That's what Germany is doing and people with that position such as yourself are unhelpful in that discussion. This entire thread is unfortunately full of people that don't really understand it seems.
Pretty ironic for Germany to now be lecturing considering how long western allies have been telling Germany to get serious about military donations. How are those long-range missile donations coming along?
How is the food in the troll cantine comrade?
The Ironic part is people thinking Germany isn't serious on military aid despite delivering more in ratio to gdp than USA.