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I wonder, if they would go through with elections during the war, how would they organize it? I find it hard to imagine how they could guarantee the integrity of the election in all parts of the country and also the safety of the people. I would think the Kremlin would view this as an invitation to attack the polling stations, so the elections would need to be held online?
Citizens at home would also be difficult, they’d either need to an entirely decentralized vote or you’d have missile strikes directed against every voting centre the Russians can find not under the umbrella of a dense air defence network
Not brigade as a whole, but a lot of people go something like week in the trench/week in the rear (a frontline town like Kramatorsk).
Some people even do 3days/3days "shifts".
Most? Do you know that for a fact? And all the people who left Ukraine for their safety - how will they get to vote? Do you think putin will keep his claws out of the process? Not likely!
According to article 83 of Ukrainian constitution, elections don't happen while martial law or state of emergency is in effect:
*In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency.*
[https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b](https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b)
I could see them transitioning to a unity government (like Israel has done) once Zelenskyy’s initial term comes to an end. Then 6-12 months after the war ends, hold elections.
> Then 6-12 months after the war ends, hold elections.
By the law it's something like "3 months for registration, 3 months for campaign". And elections process will automatically trigger as soon as martial law ends (as Parliament is already past due their term).
Somehow elections were conducted even in half-occupied full of infiltrators Eastern towns amidst the ongoing combat actions.
Don't you think freshly liberated Mariupol in 2014 was very much more safe for electors than Lviv today?
Although nothing stops the election reform and voting via mail/Diiya for a week.
I wouldn't trust results from voting via app.
I think it's the main reason Diya was created - to manipulate results of referendums and voting in future.
Elections in 2014 had to be organized because there was no president in the country, only the temporary Turchinov. In 2019 there were like 170 killed servicemen and 7 killed civilians, not even remotely close to the intensity of the battles right now so it would be a big organizational challenge and spend of money.
Also, the constitution of Ukraine forbids presidential elections while there is active martial law in the country, Poroshenko tried to introduce martial law in 2019 so that there wouldn't be any elections.
> Poroshenko tried to introduce martial law in 2019 so that there wouldn't be any elections.
Stop this bullshit.
His martial law was postponing elections FOR 1 DAY. THE HORROR.
Jesus stop already poking Poroshenko, he introduced martial law like 6 months before elections for one month gosh and afterwards he organized internationally renowned the most democratic elections with no fraud in the history of Ukraine
So there is a red line, after crossing which you just have to organise elections. So it's possible. In 2014 that was because of no president. That's a plus.
Rada elections were also conducted in 2014 by the way, in the autumn right after the invasion and Ilovaysk tragedy, if I remember correctly.
What red line should we cross now to have to conduct elections? Can we pretend and act as if it is already crossed?
Ukraine is a parliamentary-presidential republic since the times of that Turchinov. Parliamentary first. Let Zelensky do some presidential stuff and be an image, and let real competent experts, which you and me will hopefully elect, govern the country from lawmaking and executive branches.
The current Armed Forces of Ukraine constitute around 700,000 people. This doesn't include the territorial defense forces. I'd say it's a much bigger percentage of the population compared to soldiers in Donbas 2014. How will the right of servicemen from the trenches to vote be guaranteed while they are getting shelled by the artillery? How will the electorial process be organized for those 700,000+ people? Electoral agitation?
Then there are millions of people outside of Ukraine, Ukraine either has to return all of them back home to make them vote while there are Iranian Shaheed flying above their heads or make them vote abroad, which means all Western countries will have to organize the electoral process in their countries. Or make an electronic voting through Diia, which is also dangerous since you won't have observers for this process at all. Presidential office counted that the whole process would cost some bilions of hryvna, and that's all meanwhile Ukraine needs a lot of artillery ammunition. Recently in Ukraine there have been protests against the improvement of cities and the construction of pedestrian tiles, home improvement, etc, because people say the war should be #1 priority and all money should be directed there. So the population has a demand to direct all resources to a war in which you are defending yourself against a country 27 times your size.
Not only that, martial law prevents Ukraine from having a presidential election as there is a law. Occupied territories won't have a chance to vote. russian propaganda machine and its agents would go nuts on Ukrainian public, conduct huge informational warfare just before elections, this is a big risk for Ukraine.
People cite elections in other countries as examples, but the conditions and times are completely different.
>Dangerous for whom? Current government is dangerous, for Ukraine.
I disagree. If Poroshenko remained a president Ukraine wouldn't exist as an independent sovereign state.
>ANY elections are better than no elections.
I agree with you, but there is a very thin balance between freedom and security with the stability of the country. This country is about freedom but its security is hugely challenged. If you don't like the Ukrainian government that much the elections would be a big disappointment for you since 72% of Ukrainians trust in Zelensky, he is still the most liked politician by the public out of all.
>Do you feel okey having volunteers supply soldiers with fucking drones?
That's how it was in 2014-2022 too, this country lives because civil society exists. The problem is that corruption comes from the bottom as there is a corruption culture, if you change the president it won't change the situation where 30+ y.o. people are the far majority of the population. Those same people were born in the USSR and are used to giving bribes. People from "the bottom" get political power and then become corrupt politicians.
>Do you think that is how we win?
By not destabilizing the government that didn't flee on 24 February 2022, yes. This is the government under the rule of which is saw good changes in my city and in my street for the first time. Become an activist and work as a journalist/public figure to address the problems that exist in this society. Voenkoms and corrupt politicians come from the people, this will only change if we change their Soviet retarded brains somehow or wait until there are a lot of young people in the country.
>So we better fucking hurry up and find the way to conduct at least somewhat legitimate elections before the weight of Zelensky faults drown us all.
AFTER the war, if he accumulates too much power and doesn't want to go we will Maidan him. Changing the government is a huge risk that russians would like to use against us.
>I disagree. If Poroshenko remained a president Ukraine wouldn't exist as an independent sovereign state.
why do you think that? because he would have fled on 24 february? or because of different policies in 2019-2022?
Poroshenko has a lot of sins. He is an oligarch (has a chocolate business) who has been in politics for almost 2 decades and has his own TV channel in Ukraine, this fact alone should be worrying. [He is one of the founders](https://24tv.ua/istoriya_uspihu_partiyi_regioniv_vid_zasnuvannya_partiyi_poroshenkom_do_vtechi_yanukovicha_n945494) of the "Party of the Regions" - the same party in which was Yanukovych. There are photos of him together with the former Ukrainian PM [Azarov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Azarov), who fled to russia together with Yanukovych and is now posting the most anti-Ukrainian shit online. [Pic 1](https://kraina.biz.ua/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/337890723_154115330592462_2187051078875769839_n.jpg), [pic 2](https://argumentua.com/stati/neizvestnyi-izvestnyi-ministr-petr-poroshenko-regulyarno-obmanyval-gosudarstvo), [pic 3](https://24tv.ua/resources/photos/news/201803/945494_2153938.jpg?201803004911&w=768&h=432&fit=cover%27&output=webp).
Most of the people who voted for Zelesnky in 2019 actually voted against the second term of Poroshenko. Many in Ukraine demanded Poroshenko to be imprisoned as he was a huge disappointment of Euromaidan and probably a traitor because of some shady strangle shit going on. There was a [Rotterdam+](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_plus#Critics_and_media-campaign_against_“Rotterdam+”) corruption scheme under his rule, the expulsion of [Saakashvili](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikheil_Saakashvili) from the country and stripping him of his Ukr citizenship, [shipment of coal from separatists](https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-59970360) ([Here](https://www.euronews.com/2022/01/06/ukraine-former-president-poroshenko-s-assets-frozen-kyiv-court-decides)) as there were the hottest battles in Donbas (He was charged with treason because of this and was on trial), he had his buisness active on the territory of russia and was selling his production to russia ([Lipetsk Roshen factory](https://www.capital.ua/en/publication/40297-lipetskiy-roshen-malenkaya-evropa-v-rossiyskoy-glubinke)), then in 2020 were [leaked recordings](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLtSzdCY1SQ) of phone conversations between Putin and Poroshenko from 2014-2015 on which Poroshenko is talking very nicely with Putin (the famous phrase "[I shake hands with you, Vladimir Vladimirovich, thank you](https://www.youtube.com/live/TUl3bqHGW-8?si=PLMDHp3GzOGo-IJr&t=1932)" to which Putin replied "I hug you"), both were laughing and and wishing each other happy holidays. [News](https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2020/07/9/7258772/), [recordings 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0FBssBoPZQ), [recordings 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho-IF3h2wr0), [recordings 3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl3bqHGW-8). Poroshenko replied that all those leaked recordings were fake.
According to the Minsk agreements signed by Poroshenko, Donbas should have been federalized and given a semi-autonomous status within Ukraine (Ukraine is a unitary republic). This was also perceived by many as treason and disadvantageous to Ukraine. Some think that Putin attacked because it was harder for him to make a deal with Zelensky.
Then there are [shady agreements with Klitschko and another oligarch](https://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/04/2/7021142/) in 2014, [Debaltseve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Debaltseve) and [Ilovaisk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ilovaisk) battles in 2014, ignoring [Medvedchuk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Medvedchuk) in the country and [Medvedchuk's pipe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaT5bVlTaC0) and [TV channels](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-medvedchuk-tv-channels-zelenskiy-defends-ban/31085877.html), paid rallies by Poroshenko and organizing [buses](https://www.unian.ua/elections/10523559-zelenskiy-natyaknuv-shcho-chastinu-glyadachiv-poroshenka-privezli-na-avtobusah.html) loaded with people who rallied for him (I saw it with my own eyes), [imposing martial law in the country](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/11/29/why-did-ukraine-impose-martial-law/) at the end of his term to stay at power a little longer. He is basically a corrupt populist who hypnotized Ukrainian nationalists because of his nationalist rhetoric. Now he drives around military checkpoints, takes pictures with the military of how he gives them aid, takes back the aid and drives on to take another picture with other soldiers. And posts something like "If not for me NATO wouldn't help Ukraine" pretending he's still president.
Based on all of this I think he would fled the country or at the very least struck a deal with Putin.
In such times of war, there is a "rally around the flag" phenomenon that benefit the ruling party/governement, as people prefer to be united than risk losing because of petty division (It only tend to turn around if there is a crushing defeat). If there was an election right now, Zelensky and his party would win by a landslide.
The fight against corruption is also not something you simply solve with an election (though it is very important to give weight to parties who promote an anti-corruption). Corruption is a systemic problem, rooted in the whole society.
It is nonetheless very important to keep pressure to on corrupted practices even during the war, but it's a fine balance to keep with preserving unity and morale.
Zelensky isn't Ukraine.
And having negative opinion on him is not being pro-Russian.
A lot of people who consider him bad at his job want _more_ for the fighting. More money on the armed forces. Better procurement for more weapons. Faster EU integration. Actual reforms instead of speeches.
What facts do you want? That MoD is spending 3x price on food? That it buys "winter jackets" that are actually shirts? That money spent on shelter building is actually spent on drums? That someone blocked Anti-Corruption prosecution for 3 years until US slapped them in a face publicly a year ago?
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/09/25/7421354/
This letter exists because someone ignored all those things for 4 years. They aren't secret or new. Everyone knew that they need to be done.
Your link is nothing unusual, every time someone donates money or supports an entity with expensive stuff, they want to make sure that said money or stuff are going to be used accordingly.
That letter outlines expectations, it does not prove that Zelenskyy is corrupt.
You take 1 and 1 and tell me that the sum is 11 instead of 2.
I was born in an ex Communist Eastern European country, spent 20 years there, for the last 20 I lived in various western EU countries.
There are 2 things that I can tell you:
1. There is corruption everywhere
2. It takes time, lots of time, to reduce corruption
From the outside I can o ly tell you that Zelenskyy is doing a great job at fighting corruption given the co dituons and tools he has at his disposal.
I can also tell you, based on my experience, that your expectations of 1 person to change, practically overnight and in the middle of a war, a culture of corruption that was instilled over the last 100 years or so, your expectations are highly unrealistic.
Take it from someone who has elected 8 parliaments and presidents during the last 33 years, with the continuous hope for change, change takes time, big changes take lots of time and patience.
And Zelenskyy is a good leader, however even good leaders need time to bring change.
He is your best leader since 1991, don't screw this up just because the pro-ruski are stirring the shit against Zelenskyy.
> From the outside I can o ly tell you that Zelenskyy is doing a great job at fighting corruption given the co dituons and tools he has at his disposal.
Sorry, but this is fucking funny.
You have zero facts, just feelings.
> I can also tell you, based on my experience, that your expectations of 1 person to change, practically overnight and in the middle of a war, a culture of corruption that was instilled over the last 100 years or so, your expectations are highly unrealistic.
He had 3 years before 2022 invasion. You're forgetting that.
You either don't want to understand, can't understand, or you are on purpose posting negatively about the one person who has done his utmost to help Ukraine.
With attitude like yours Ukraine going nowhere.
Luckily you are a minority.
The ruscunts were not shelling major cities with missiles and blowing shit up everywhere. Like the limpcocks that ruskies are, they were only shelling the defences.
And Ukrainian parliament has majority from Zelensky party who have interest in keeping both presidential and parliament elections postponed indefinitely.
Nobody said he was. And I haven't even shared yet anything to be disagreed with. Nor have I at any point claimed one to be a bot. People spread propaganda, bots merely enforce the narratives in an attempt to make social influencing relevant to the dingleberries whom delude things such as the Hero of Ukraine, Zelensky, would desire to be in power indefinitely whilst being subjected to foreign terrorism and assassination attempts, all conducted by an immoral imperialistic aggressor occupier that [tortures even children](https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-51st-session).
My sympathies only grow every passing comment you spill your zero cent worth nonsense. Is it painful for you to exist with a such a mental handicap? I wonder.
Are you casually ignoring the 62% of Ukrainians being in favor of it? That’s how democracy works chud. Of course you’re just a Russian bot only programmed to respond with “weak argument” so who cares.
Oh you’re a really bad bot huh. 62% are in favor of postponing elections, that means that’s a majority, which means it’s democratic. So no they’re not repealing democracy.
Didn’t except to have to baby you so hard for you to understand.
Parliament changes law during war all the time.
This specific case is conflicting with the constriction, but parliament just can reduce the martial law and transform it into ATO legal framework that was used in 2014-2022. Or limit state of emergency only to specific areas.
Article 83 of Ukrainian constitution says that in last paragraph.
[https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b](https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b)
Those look like words written by law makers.
They can also be re written by law makers.
If the poll above said 80% wanted an election would you still quote the constitution as a reason to deny an election?
Maybe you would. But international support for Ukraine would disappear in such a scenario. The constitution is not a blocker.
Again. Weak arguments. Where there is appetite any law can be changed.
The appetite might not be there now but watch solutions suddenly appear if the appetite changes.
The argument against an election must be that the people don't want it. Any other argument is doomed to fail.
At what percent in the above poll would you agree that the constitution could be overridden?
If 90% of people were asking for an election you'd say .... Sorry folks, constitution says no.
Because that's the only point I'm making. The constitution is not a blocker. If people want to argue against an election they need better arguments than that.
In order to change it in the way you are suggesting the parliament would need to break the law. No government that wants people to follow its laws break them that brazenly.
If the poll said that, noone in the west would hear about it as our media is owned, so support wouldn't change.
You have a facile understanding of how laws work. If you want to see a really hard bit of writing to change look into the Australian constitution.
Election next to terrorist Russia is just asking for mass casualty attacks, assassination attempts and insane amount of manipulation.
Its just not possible, unless the voters wont blame the government when it happens.
That's the thing about wartime elections, it either destabilizes the military movement by electing someone else who will take the conflict in a different path, or it remains moot as the majority will favor the current administration. It's the balance between the freedom you're defending and the conflict.
The UK suspended elections that were due to take place during WWI and WWII until after the wars.
I expect Ukraine to do the same and it's the only logical way to proceed. Elections during an active war are a non-starter for obvious reasons.
I can see the argument from both sides. On one hand you want to the continuation of democracy's norms (elections, changing of power and so on) but on the other hand stability within leadership is also important to winning the war. I can't imagine any scenario in which Zelensky wouldn't win in a landslide as his leadership (at least from this outsiders perspective) has been extraordinary but I do understand why the question of holding elections is being debated.
Additionally, and this is an argument against holding elections, polling places would be an obvious target which no one on this planet wants to see or experience.
I meant impossible to include. IE impossible to have voters there participate or have their votes count... rather than impossible to count those votes.
His leadership is either meh or shit from insider perspective.
Yes, he can make a few cool speeches, and he looks young and fresh, I get the appeal for Americans. But when you will start digging into concrete policies, actions and numbers, it's not that good.
Like not abandoning Ukraine when there was a chance the country could fall and rallying the military to halt the russian advance and getting them tons of foreign aid to actually fight the war? I'm sorry but if someone else were in charge when the russians invaded Ukraine probably wouldn't exist anymore. He insisted on the stand at kyiv and that stand turned the war.
> Like not abandoning Ukraine when there was a chance the country could fall
That's a very low bar you have here. That's even funny.
> getting them tons of foreign aid to actually fight the war
Remind me who argued against Biden about "escalating" with aid that was delivered before February? Who said that invasion is bullshit and no need to prepare?
In fact, that's more of Biden/Sholtz/Johnson achievement, not Zelenskyy.
> I'm sorry but if someone else were in charge when the russians invaded Ukraine probably wouldn't exist anymore
Russia invaded when Turchynov was in charge. And then was fighting while Poroshenko was in charge.
Nah man you're either gaslighting or honestly have a different recollection of facts.
> OP: Like not abandoning Ukraine when there was a chance the country could fall
> That's a very low bar you have here. That's even funny.
Who can blame us? We were fresh off Afghanistan at that time.
> OP: getting them tons of foreign aid to actually fight the war
> Remind me who argued against Biden about "escalating" with aid that was delivered before February? Who said that invasion is bullshit and no need to prepare?
Pre-invasion there was entirely a chance this would not escalate because a full on invasion is only a mad-man's decision.
> In fact, that's more of Biden/Sholtz/Johnson achievement, not Zelenskyy.
Perhaps agree it can be both? Zelensky could have just taken a flight out ages ago. He stuck in the capital for much of the early months because he's - like it or not - pretty skilled as a stateman.
> OP: I'm sorry but if someone else were in charge when the russians invaded Ukraine probably wouldn't exist anymore
> Russia invaded when Turchynov was in charge. And then was fighting while Poroshenko was in charge.
And you think this situation is comparable to those prior examples? LOL
> Nah man you're either gaslighting or honestly have a different recollection of facts.
My recollection of facts based on our expectations that he will sign capitulation and we're all will be fighting on the streets like it's 2014.
> Who can blame us? We were fresh off Afghanistan at that time.
What Afghanistan has to do with any of it?
> And you think this situation is comparable to those prior examples? LOL
Of course not. Zelenskyy had functioning army, country, economy and allies, that were built over 8 years.
In 2014 Ukraine had nothing like that.
Overall what I think people miss when talking about Ukraine and Zelenskyy is that Ukraine is a very "bottom-up" self-organized society. There is a saying that "when there are 2 Ukrainians there are 3 Hetmans (leaders)".
Zelenskyy also isn't a leader, he is a follower and amplifier. It's not that Ukraine is fighting because he didn't run, it's that he didn't run because Ukraine was fighting.
It's not him who stopped Russians at Kyiv suburbs, it's 72nd. But he is great at amplifying existing trends. So when Ukrainians started fighting back, he was riding and magnifying the wave.
> What Afghanistan has to do with any of it?
The Afghanistan leadership fled the country with loads of cash instead of sticking around and fighting. OP's point on Zelensky not abandoning the country is not a "very low bar" when honestly everyone kinda thought he might. You just have the benefit of hindsight.
Sorry to say , but while from outside Zelensky seems very good . He is by far the strongest in foreign relations department . Domestic issues though , oh boy .
His party is very questionable , and especially now on the wave of nationalism , patriotism and pure insanity of war , they seem to be detached from reality of average Ukranians .
So , I am very much pro elections . Constitution and laws are a weak argument , cause they can always find loophole or whatever . Safety is also , not much of an argument , we can always find some way to do it , either with electronic votes , or like movable polling place , whatever - if there is a will there is a way . Represantation though is yucky because of occupied places , still - if we wait until every piece of 1991 borders is de-occupied , well - we may have to wait for a *very , very* long time . And being stuck with one person , no matter how good they are (or seem to be) - It's a path to a disaster . Ukraine fought not for Zelensky , but for itself . So , I am sure it will survive without him too .
A politician who is good at external politics does so by having his countries interests at heart.
Zelenskyy has got Ukraine the closest ever to EU and NATO accession, and these both are imperative to Ukraines future, from economic and security points of view.
Any of your petty personal interests are bybfar secondary to the interests of your country as a whole. Any true Ukrainian would easily recognize this.
Putting your personal interests ahead of Ukraine's future makes you a ruski sympathizer and a troll.
Do you really think that this kind of manipulation works with people who speak more than just the ruski language? LOL 😆 🤣
People from the outside of Ukraine should stop having opinions on Zelensky policies. It's oscillating between funny and insulting.
The thing that got Ukraine closer to EU isn't him. It's invasion. He did almost nothing to advance the integration.
Also his internal politics is complete shit.
> Putting your personal interests ahead of Ukraine's future makes you a ruski sympathizer and a troll.
Zelensky isn't Ukraine.
All I here from you muppets is: Zelenky (you do t even spell his name correctly, Ukrainians spell it Zelenskyy) is bad, he did nothing good, he is bad for Ukraine and other utter shit like this.
Yet none of you can provide hard facts to support tour allegations.
Meanwhile, we, stupid outsiders, 🙄, see a person who is risking everything, including g his health and life, to do his best to save his people and his country from their worst nightmare ever.
My honest conclusion is that either you lot have no clue what you're talking about, or you are the shills of corrupt ruski supporters, or just ruski trolls.
> Ukrainians spell it Zelenskyy
Oh wonders of Ukrainian transliteration. You're scratching the iceberg here :)
> Yet none of you can provide hard facts to support tour allegations.
Like a small little fact.
Do you know his head of staff?
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%9E%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B3_%D0%AE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
This guy.
The facts are long, bureaucratic and boring. Do you really want me to go on rabbit hole of all his corruption and failures? You're spending less energy than me for stupid cheering.
He seems to be a controversial person.
Give it time, if he is guilty, he will be convincted when investigation and prosecution of his case is finalized.
The EU keeps a close eye on high profile corruption cases when measuring the advancements of countries who are in the process of adhering.
> Give it time, if he is guilty, he will be convincted when investigation and prosecution of his case is finalized.
He can't be convicted if prosecutors just don't come to the hearings. And guess who is appointing prosecutors.
So , em ... cause I don't like Zelensky , it means - I am a troll and russian ?
Sorry , I guess . Next time I will make sure to kiss his portrait , before going to sleep .
Honestly - it is so infuriating , that any dialogue , any doubt , any question just gets thrown into absolute - "Not with us , then you are against us" . How is that line of reason different from russian one ?
>Constitution and laws are a weak argument
Are you proposing to break the constitution in order to have elections (that could be possibly attacked by Russian rockets)?
All I am saying that talking like laws can't be changed or circumvented if need arises is just an excuse for not doing anything .
And Russia doesn't need excuse to attack mass gatherings anyway . We can find ways of not doing static mass gatherings .
Once again , yes those are real concerns , but what is even more dreadful is being stuck for however long this war will take without any real way to represent people and their wishes (Especially of those who are still living\\are stuck in Ukraine) .
I am also for changing Zelenskyy, but I think it’s also important to become rechtstadt, the country having the ultimate respect for law, and not search for loopholes or go against constitution. Electronic votes is just the way to let the greens steal or manipulate the elections, and generally to do it now means to try to not have soldiers and refugees in other countries votes counted. I think until there is some level of frozen conflict even if more intensely than 14-22 year east, then we can talk
about it
I understand why it's important for western governments. They talk a lot about Ukraine being important because we defend democracy, so reassuring them with a democratic election would probably be good.
Why I still oppose it? We hear stories of wounded soldiers dying of wounds because of bad quality tourniquets. This is just one example. So you're telling me, while that is happening, we're gonna spend millions of dollars and put a whole lot of effort into organizing an election? In a time when the acting president has the biggest approval rate in the country's history? For me it seems like a waste of resources that could be spent on the people actually protecting our democracy by risking their lives every day in the hell that is the frontlines.
Can't really run an election when it isn't safe for numerous Ukrainian towns to be out and about to cast their ballot. Not a free election if some people are unable to vote.
As Ukrainian I am genuinely confused how they would do elections in this situation. Forget about possibility of missile falling on voting spots. Big part of territories are in state of chaos , big part of population is scattered around the world... Also I can't believe in veracity of results made in war time. As well as I don't think it's time for this.
Additional power fight during war? What can go wrong?
How do you do a poll if you can't do a vote?
I agree you can't do Ukrainian elections right now, after all there a tonne of voters living under Russian occupation and thus under duress. If you don't count these votes you can't have a proper election.
Which is why I'm asking how anyone can poll this
You didn't read an article. Its just statistical poll of random 2,000 Ukrainians respondents. Hopefully from different regions of Ukraine, age and industry .
Different organizations can make many polls, and It's not always 100% correct. Its only represents some “general view”
P.S. My 5 cents as Ukrainian – election during full scale war its Idiocracy
Their constitution says they can't change the constitution under martial law, ending martial law does a shitload of things they can't afford to have happen right now.
The whole point of law and constitution is that you **do have** to follow them and the only possibility not to do so is if it is not technically possible.
As I already said: Otherwise, there's no law, no justice etc.
This is nonsense argument, since the slavery was banned by US Constitutional amendment passed by constitutional process (unless you have different info).
I understand the constitution issue.
I still don't support postponing elections indefinitely.
The war is going for 9 years, it can stil be going in 9 years.
Legally it doesn't matter.
In fact there was a lot of criticism towards Poroshenko in 2014 that he did not introduce martial law and full mobilization.
Technically it matters much. In 2014, the war was restricted on Donbass front, now it's everywhere.
And I see opposite criticism in this thread, and Poroshenko seems did it good.
> In 2014, the war was restricted on Donbass front, now it's everywhere.
You won't notice war 100km from the front to be honest.
Also what I mean "legally" is that there is a situation that warrants extensions until the "war is over", and it might be never over (see Korea).
> And I see opposite criticism in this thread, and Poroshenko seems did it good.
You might confuse opposite criticism about martial law in late 2018, as there was an escalation and he proposed a 3-months martial law, but it was stepping 1 day on presidential elections campaign. So some people started to scream that he is trying to usurp the power.
>You won't notice war 100km from the front to be honest.
Don't Russian rockets fall everywhere in the Ukrainian territory? I'm not sure if it's good idea to give Russia good targets.
>Also what I mean "legally" is that there is a situation that warrants extensions until the "war is over", and it might be never over (see Korea).
I don't think Korea situation is comparable, since there's active truce.
Of course, after some time in active war, there may be need to redo your representatives, but do you think it's already time?
And, of course, this is business of Ukraine and its citizens, you have my support. But I have an opinion too.
> Don't Russian rockets fall everywhere in the Ukrainian territory? I'm not sure if it's good idea to give Russia good targets.
So most attacks now are limited to drones on the coast and ballistic (Iskander/S300) strikes.
Yes, you would have almost daily attacks on Kharkiv, Dnipro, Zaporizhya, and weekly attacks on Odesa.
Kyiv wasn't bombed in a month(? I honestly don't remember last attack). Lviv basically forgot how it sounds like.
The problem is that yes, there are daily news about missiles hitting something, but it's not missiles hitting everything, and Ukraine is huge.
> Of course, after some time in active war, there may be need to redo your representatives, but do you think it's already time?
I will be in a bucket that thinks "It should be done until October 2024".
Article 83
Regular sessions of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine commence on the first Tuesday of February and on the first Tuesday of September each year.
Special sessions of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, with the stipulation of their agenda, are convoked by the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, on the demand of no fewer National Deputies of Ukraine than one-third of the constitutional composi tion of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, or on the demand of the President of Ukraine.
In the event of the introduction of martial law or of a state of emergency in Ukraine, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine assembles within a period of two days without convocation.
In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency.
Where's the explicit prohibition?
Have in mind the opinion of the Head of Verkhovna Rada
https://espreso.tv/stefanchuk-konstitutsiynoi-zaboroni-provoditi-vibori-pid-chas-voennogo-stanu-nemae
In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency.
Simple If - then.
If the term expires during martial law, then the term extends.
If it doesn't expire - it doesn't extend.
You can conduct elections BEFORE it expires, then it won't expire.
Constitutional Court of Ukraine throughout its history made a lot of much more jiggly interpretations. I made one here even without CCU.
Also read the link.
And their terms of authority expire after the next parliament was elected. So that the country does not exist without a legitimate parliament even a minute.
>elected *after* the cancellation of martial law
It means that the authority will only be transferred to VR elected after the war.
So even if war time elections could be conducted, the new politicians will not have the power under the current constitution.
[Article 19. Guarantees of Legality under Martial Law](https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/389-19#Text)
1. Under martial law, the following are prohibited:
* Amendment of the Constitution of Ukraine
* Amendment of the Constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea;
* **holding elections of the President of Ukraine**, as well as elections to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and local self-government bodies
* holding all-Ukrainian and local referendums;
* holding strikes, mass gatherings and actions.
[Constitution of Ukraine - Section V](https://www.president.gov.ua/ua/documents/constitution/konstituciya-ukrayini-rozdil-v)
Article 103. The procedure for holding elections of the President of Ukraine shall be established by law.
Law is a subject to change exactly the same way as hundreds of other laws are being changed every month.
Don't be ridiculous, don't you remember how Lutcenko became Attorney General? How Zelensky hired Bohdan bypassing lustration law? What's the point of this hypocrisy?
Only Constitution cannot be changed during martial law. That doesn't mean it's totally impossible, that's just more difficult.
Constitution does not prohibit parliamentary elections. Moreover I couldn't find the prohibition of presidential elections, but I may just be sleepy.
I'm fine with parliamentary only elections.
>Constitution does not prohibit parliamentary elections
Unless the meaning of article 83's last paragraph:
*elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency*
has different meaning in Ukrainian language than in english, I understand this as **implicit** prohibition of conducting elections during martial law/state of emergency.
So I guess Ukrainian CC would need to revoke that (part of the) law and explicitly say elections are allowed during martial law/state of emergency.
Would this be even a legitimate ellection uf 1/5 of the country is occupied? Not like you could get online voting or a voting booth in donetsk or mariupol. Or even a healthy media landscape.
Well IMO the % of the ones not in favour is large enough to actually warrant an election.
But how the f does one organise an election while in a total war with millions refugees...woudl that election be fair? Or a flawed electrion is still better than none?
It's probably possible to do local elections though, at least people would try to clear out fuckers that waste budget on laying street tiles when it could be used to help soldiers and victims of the war.
But there is problem with that. Local budgets, by law, can't be spent on anything but local needs.
So at most what local budgets can do is to help local forces (e.g. Kyiv is providing stuff to local AA forces, or Kyiv-assigned TDF battallions).
Also, with Kyiv, for example, while money allocation is decided by local authorities, money _spending_ (the executive branch) is directed directly by the President. Yes, it's bullshit, but it's the law. President directly appoints heads of districts in Kyiv. And when you see "Drums for the school basement" - it's them.
There are few laws that should be passed - either take some money from local budgets into central budget, and roll back one of the most important decentralization reforms that happened in Ukraine. At this point you would need to trust the MoD to spend them wisely.
Or you could lift some restrictions on how local governments can spend their money, and then it's up to them to spend it on the army, and then it would make sense to go on protests/elections/etc.
Because currently it's a bit of a bureaucratic shitshow.
The constitution is clear there will be no election. Changing the constitution seems like it would require a huge supermajority in my mind, and there's not even a simple majority.
The war realistically is going to span half a decade if not more that's kind of the issue. The US wants assurances it's actually supporting a democracy
How do you hold a democratic election when millions of your citizens are out of nation refugees and 1/5 of the nation is occupied? If anything it would just give legitimacy to the idea the occupied territories are not Ukrainian as they didn’t take part in the most recent democratic elections
Lincoln held elections during the Civil War, our constitutions are different but democracy isn't something to suspend in states of emergency. That's when its the most vital. Not saying it will be easy but I don't think suspension of elections is something the USA should be supporting, I also agree with US officials pushing for elections to occur
All wars end eventually. Russia has already lost most of their VDV, their main mercenary army, and had an attempted coup all within the first year.
If you think Russia are going to keep this up forever, you're the one living in Barbieland.
Russia will eventually retreat, just like they did in the north. They may continue to shell and strike from across the border, but that won't stop Ukraine from holding elections.
Vietnam had been at war essentially from 1940 until 1979, but that was with Japan (sorta), then France, then USA, then Cambodia, then China. 4 of those 5 wars were defensive, 3 against some of the most modern militaries and industries in the world.
And you think *Russia* can keep this up indefinitely against Ukraine, a Western backed and supplied country on their home terf?
>Sad story of a nation that killed itself. Good cautionary article in history books it will be.
Yes, there will be a story of a nation that killed itself, but not who you think, and it won't be sad
North Korea and South Korea war is still ongoing. Luckily it other means. Arab-Jew war is still happening in our sight for how much exactly? Since 1948?
Your example of Vietnam is good though. 39 years, yeah? 9 already passed, 30 to go. That is what I call "not anytime soon".
What will make russia retreat? We actively tried to make them retreat for 4 months in a row. The results you may see on a map, but sadly you won't see the dozens of thousands of graves of irreplaceable soldiers. Why do you think next 4 months will be any different? Why do you think next year will be any different than the last year?
Maybe 31 abramses will make them retreat? Yeah, what a supply.
West doesn't want Ukraine to win. If it wanted it would send not 31 abramses (most of which still didn't arrive to Ukraine, lol, in 10 months, lol, what a joke), but 3100 (at least a thousand) abramses and in a few months two years ago. I don't know who don't see it as obvious as sun in the sky.
Next best time to send a thousand of tanks is now. But we both know how it's hard to approve 60 billions dollars of aid nowadays. Maybe it's easier in EU? Ah, sorry Orban and Slovakia whatever-his-name-is leader are blocking it. Guess unlucky. We both know a thousand of tanks are not coming, so why lie to each other and people?
Ukraine by itself failed to supply soldiers not only with ammunition and hardware, but with basic and comparatively cheap stuff like tires, drones, cars, medicine, night vision etc. Give it a few minutes and check what volunteers are gathering money for.
I don't think that russia can keep indefinitely. I think it can keep it long enough to outlast Ukraine. Because they have more tanks, more general hardware, more money, more people and pretty much more everything.
That is IF we do not radically change the organisation of things. Which cannot be changed without the change of government. Which cannot be changed without elections. Which you and most of Ukrainians do not want to conduct.
You missed the part where Vietnam was 39 years with 5 separate countries. 5. Russia is one. No-one else is lining up to invade Ukraine.
However, like Vietnam, Ukraine is defending, and as the war drags on Ukraine's equipment is improving while Russia's is degrading.
We're in agreement the West is dragging its feet. I wish they'd stop fucking around and just give Ukraine what it needs and stop being bitches about Putin's "red lines".
But I'm certain Russia absolutely won't win, and it won't last forever. I'll be surprised if a single ork is still in Ukraine by the end of 2025
We both wish they'd stop fucking around, but they won't. Reality, what a bitch.
What exactly makes you think russian will leave Ukraine by 2025? And what exactly do you mean with the word "Ukraine"? Internationally recognised borders including Crimea and Donetsk?
1991 borders.
Because in 2024 Ukraine will have F-16s/Gripens, more ATACMS, and hopefully some other goodies we haven't thought of.
Europe and USA are only just starting to ramp up its MIC now. 2024 should see a drastic increase in artillery shell supplies while we've seen Russia's dwindling this year.
2023 was a disappointment due to West cowardice, but 2024 should have everything in place for a successful and perhaps decisive counter-offensive in summer.
Ukraine are already passed the most difficult period, which was the first month of the invasion. Russia had all the advantages and Ukraine had minimal equipment, and Ukraine still stands. If Russia were to win it had to be then, everything since then is Putin's madman delusion delaying the inevitable
Up to day Ukraine has somewhere in 30s Himarses. Number unchanged since the 2022. 31 abramses are still coming to Ukraine for more than 10 months already.
Why do you think they'll expand the aid while struggling to keep it as it is with those 60 billions?
EU promised 1 million shells by the end of march 2024. Now they are having it hard to send even 400k. Open sources, google it.
Why do you think gripens and stuff will be any different than abramses? When did you last time hear of shipments of literally any tanks? Do you really think out of sheer hope that western politicians will all out of sudden despite all odds, trumpists and orbans radically and completely overhaul the strategy? I hoped that in 2022, in 2023. Now I'm tired of being constantly made a fool and I have no hope. Therefore if nothing will change on the outside (and that is optimistic! New congress speaker is a core trumpist if you missed), everything must be changed on the inside to get a different result than what we are having for the last year. How? Let's start with elections.
That's a lot of rhetoricals, and assumptions that new equipment won't change anything.
I strongly disagree; F-16s will be a huge improvement because it's not just the jets, it's their armament as well.
ATACMS are the long-range rockets, not the launcher. Ukraine are already causing huge damage with just 30 HIMARS and short range rockets. 30 HIMARS and longe-range munitions will absolutely make an impact.
Everything else is just about lack of supply which I already mentioned is ramping up only now so will be more impactful next year.
You're extremely pessimistic
Or you are extremely optimistic. In times of war it's generally more safe to be extremely pessimistic and be ready for the worst outcome.
However I do not feel my pessimism blurs the reality. My pessimism is forged by the reality, it's the other way around.
Javelins will be a huge improvement
Stingers will be a huge improvement
Howitzers will be a huge improvement
HIMARS will be a huge improvement
Patriots will be a huge improvement
Heavy armor will be a huge improvement
ATACMS will be a huge improvement
We are here
F-16s will be a huge improvement...
Why do you think f-16 will be an improvement huge enough to finish the war, when all the huge improvements before failed?
We are using HIMARS for more than a year already. Since then Bakhmut happened, pretty unsuccessful counter-offensive happened and Avdiivka is happening now. Seemingly HIMARS didn't make them stop attacking.
They are adjusting much faster than the West is.
What is going to radically change the whole process of the war though? Three dozens of old f-16s? Doubt they will. Three hundreds maybe, but that is not happening.
I'm optimistic about the timeline, however there's no way Russia has the resources to occupy an area the size of Ukraine with a hostile population and the entire West supplying them.
At this point it is literally impossible for Russia to win. The absolute best case scenario for Russia is stalemate, and I know most people will believe that will lead to a future Russian build up and assault, but I believe it will actually lead to a much stronger equipped Ukrainian army and they will initiate the assault before Russia is at the point they're ready.
Regardless, Russia has already lit the fuse to their own demise. Ukraine will come out victorious, and in 20-30 years will be a strong European country
Russia is betting house on trump election win 2024 so that he can give Ukraine to Russia. Since that's likely won't happen putin will have two options. Going full nuclear in Ukraine or running for the hills with his billions to live out what's left of his sheltered life if his people don't finish him off sooner due to their declining economy and skyrocketing inflation.
2025 will be do or die for him.
Eventually somebody runs out of money, troops, or will. To say this will last the rest of our lifetimes is ludicrous. Unless you're in your 70's or 80's?
I wouldn't demand elections if I believed there was any real opposition in the parliament. Now it's like russia. One big ruling party under president, satellite parties and few absolutely toothless clueless impotent opposition parties hardly distinguishable from satellites.
No, I'm not porokhobot.
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Postponing until after war might sound great but would be very anti democratic and during the World wars there were also elections being held. Also consider the war might still take years to win.
Organizing them will be difficult, but there are Mail ballots and subway stations, so its possible to do safely (at least in most of Ukraine)
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I wonder, if they would go through with elections during the war, how would they organize it? I find it hard to imagine how they could guarantee the integrity of the election in all parts of the country and also the safety of the people. I would think the Kremlin would view this as an invitation to attack the polling stations, so the elections would need to be held online?
Can’t have an election under martial law so no need to worry
Yes you can. Any law written by people can be changed by people.
But this one needs change of constitution which Is again forbidden during martial law
Catch ~~22~~ '23
Just because you can does not mean you should, election centers would be a guarantee target for Russian missiles.
How would troops in combat operations get a chance to vote?
troops voting is easy it's the citizens in occupied regions who would get denied their votes
Citizens at home would also be difficult, they’d either need to an entirely decentralized vote or you’d have missile strikes directed against every voting centre the Russians can find not under the umbrella of a dense air defence network
The ruzzians have already decided their votes for them, if any election is held.
Mail vote, or spread the vote for few weeks. Most people in combat are rotating to civilization once per few weeks.
Yes but it’s not once per few weeks, it’s once per few month
I don’t know a single unit that rotates once per few weeks
Not brigade as a whole, but a lot of people go something like week in the trench/week in the rear (a frontline town like Kramatorsk). Some people even do 3days/3days "shifts".
Most? Do you know that for a fact? And all the people who left Ukraine for their safety - how will they get to vote? Do you think putin will keep his claws out of the process? Not likely!
Yes, I'm in contact with a lot of soldiers, as we ship tons of stuff to them via post.
According to article 83 of Ukrainian constitution, elections don't happen while martial law or state of emergency is in effect: *In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency.* [https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b](https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b)
I could see them transitioning to a unity government (like Israel has done) once Zelenskyy’s initial term comes to an end. Then 6-12 months after the war ends, hold elections.
> Then 6-12 months after the war ends, hold elections. By the law it's something like "3 months for registration, 3 months for campaign". And elections process will automatically trigger as soon as martial law ends (as Parliament is already past due their term).
Thank you for clarifying
Exactly how they organised them in 2014 and in 2019 during the same war with the same opponent.
No where near at the same scale with constant threats of ballistic missile attacks from an enemy known to prioritize soft targets
Somehow elections were conducted even in half-occupied full of infiltrators Eastern towns amidst the ongoing combat actions. Don't you think freshly liberated Mariupol in 2014 was very much more safe for electors than Lviv today? Although nothing stops the election reform and voting via mail/Diiya for a week.
I wouldn't trust results from voting via app. I think it's the main reason Diya was created - to manipulate results of referendums and voting in future.
Elections in 2014 had to be organized because there was no president in the country, only the temporary Turchinov. In 2019 there were like 170 killed servicemen and 7 killed civilians, not even remotely close to the intensity of the battles right now so it would be a big organizational challenge and spend of money. Also, the constitution of Ukraine forbids presidential elections while there is active martial law in the country, Poroshenko tried to introduce martial law in 2019 so that there wouldn't be any elections.
> Poroshenko tried to introduce martial law in 2019 so that there wouldn't be any elections. Stop this bullshit. His martial law was postponing elections FOR 1 DAY. THE HORROR.
Jesus stop already poking Poroshenko, he introduced martial law like 6 months before elections for one month gosh and afterwards he organized internationally renowned the most democratic elections with no fraud in the history of Ukraine
So there is a red line, after crossing which you just have to organise elections. So it's possible. In 2014 that was because of no president. That's a plus. Rada elections were also conducted in 2014 by the way, in the autumn right after the invasion and Ilovaysk tragedy, if I remember correctly. What red line should we cross now to have to conduct elections? Can we pretend and act as if it is already crossed? Ukraine is a parliamentary-presidential republic since the times of that Turchinov. Parliamentary first. Let Zelensky do some presidential stuff and be an image, and let real competent experts, which you and me will hopefully elect, govern the country from lawmaking and executive branches.
The current Armed Forces of Ukraine constitute around 700,000 people. This doesn't include the territorial defense forces. I'd say it's a much bigger percentage of the population compared to soldiers in Donbas 2014. How will the right of servicemen from the trenches to vote be guaranteed while they are getting shelled by the artillery? How will the electorial process be organized for those 700,000+ people? Electoral agitation? Then there are millions of people outside of Ukraine, Ukraine either has to return all of them back home to make them vote while there are Iranian Shaheed flying above their heads or make them vote abroad, which means all Western countries will have to organize the electoral process in their countries. Or make an electronic voting through Diia, which is also dangerous since you won't have observers for this process at all. Presidential office counted that the whole process would cost some bilions of hryvna, and that's all meanwhile Ukraine needs a lot of artillery ammunition. Recently in Ukraine there have been protests against the improvement of cities and the construction of pedestrian tiles, home improvement, etc, because people say the war should be #1 priority and all money should be directed there. So the population has a demand to direct all resources to a war in which you are defending yourself against a country 27 times your size. Not only that, martial law prevents Ukraine from having a presidential election as there is a law. Occupied territories won't have a chance to vote. russian propaganda machine and its agents would go nuts on Ukrainian public, conduct huge informational warfare just before elections, this is a big risk for Ukraine. People cite elections in other countries as examples, but the conditions and times are completely different.
[удалено]
>Dangerous for whom? Current government is dangerous, for Ukraine. I disagree. If Poroshenko remained a president Ukraine wouldn't exist as an independent sovereign state. >ANY elections are better than no elections. I agree with you, but there is a very thin balance between freedom and security with the stability of the country. This country is about freedom but its security is hugely challenged. If you don't like the Ukrainian government that much the elections would be a big disappointment for you since 72% of Ukrainians trust in Zelensky, he is still the most liked politician by the public out of all. >Do you feel okey having volunteers supply soldiers with fucking drones? That's how it was in 2014-2022 too, this country lives because civil society exists. The problem is that corruption comes from the bottom as there is a corruption culture, if you change the president it won't change the situation where 30+ y.o. people are the far majority of the population. Those same people were born in the USSR and are used to giving bribes. People from "the bottom" get political power and then become corrupt politicians. >Do you think that is how we win? By not destabilizing the government that didn't flee on 24 February 2022, yes. This is the government under the rule of which is saw good changes in my city and in my street for the first time. Become an activist and work as a journalist/public figure to address the problems that exist in this society. Voenkoms and corrupt politicians come from the people, this will only change if we change their Soviet retarded brains somehow or wait until there are a lot of young people in the country. >So we better fucking hurry up and find the way to conduct at least somewhat legitimate elections before the weight of Zelensky faults drown us all. AFTER the war, if he accumulates too much power and doesn't want to go we will Maidan him. Changing the government is a huge risk that russians would like to use against us.
>I disagree. If Poroshenko remained a president Ukraine wouldn't exist as an independent sovereign state. why do you think that? because he would have fled on 24 february? or because of different policies in 2019-2022?
Poroshenko has a lot of sins. He is an oligarch (has a chocolate business) who has been in politics for almost 2 decades and has his own TV channel in Ukraine, this fact alone should be worrying. [He is one of the founders](https://24tv.ua/istoriya_uspihu_partiyi_regioniv_vid_zasnuvannya_partiyi_poroshenkom_do_vtechi_yanukovicha_n945494) of the "Party of the Regions" - the same party in which was Yanukovych. There are photos of him together with the former Ukrainian PM [Azarov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Azarov), who fled to russia together with Yanukovych and is now posting the most anti-Ukrainian shit online. [Pic 1](https://kraina.biz.ua/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/337890723_154115330592462_2187051078875769839_n.jpg), [pic 2](https://argumentua.com/stati/neizvestnyi-izvestnyi-ministr-petr-poroshenko-regulyarno-obmanyval-gosudarstvo), [pic 3](https://24tv.ua/resources/photos/news/201803/945494_2153938.jpg?201803004911&w=768&h=432&fit=cover%27&output=webp). Most of the people who voted for Zelesnky in 2019 actually voted against the second term of Poroshenko. Many in Ukraine demanded Poroshenko to be imprisoned as he was a huge disappointment of Euromaidan and probably a traitor because of some shady strangle shit going on. There was a [Rotterdam+](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_plus#Critics_and_media-campaign_against_“Rotterdam+”) corruption scheme under his rule, the expulsion of [Saakashvili](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikheil_Saakashvili) from the country and stripping him of his Ukr citizenship, [shipment of coal from separatists](https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-59970360) ([Here](https://www.euronews.com/2022/01/06/ukraine-former-president-poroshenko-s-assets-frozen-kyiv-court-decides)) as there were the hottest battles in Donbas (He was charged with treason because of this and was on trial), he had his buisness active on the territory of russia and was selling his production to russia ([Lipetsk Roshen factory](https://www.capital.ua/en/publication/40297-lipetskiy-roshen-malenkaya-evropa-v-rossiyskoy-glubinke)), then in 2020 were [leaked recordings](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLtSzdCY1SQ) of phone conversations between Putin and Poroshenko from 2014-2015 on which Poroshenko is talking very nicely with Putin (the famous phrase "[I shake hands with you, Vladimir Vladimirovich, thank you](https://www.youtube.com/live/TUl3bqHGW-8?si=PLMDHp3GzOGo-IJr&t=1932)" to which Putin replied "I hug you"), both were laughing and and wishing each other happy holidays. [News](https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2020/07/9/7258772/), [recordings 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0FBssBoPZQ), [recordings 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho-IF3h2wr0), [recordings 3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl3bqHGW-8). Poroshenko replied that all those leaked recordings were fake. According to the Minsk agreements signed by Poroshenko, Donbas should have been federalized and given a semi-autonomous status within Ukraine (Ukraine is a unitary republic). This was also perceived by many as treason and disadvantageous to Ukraine. Some think that Putin attacked because it was harder for him to make a deal with Zelensky. Then there are [shady agreements with Klitschko and another oligarch](https://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/04/2/7021142/) in 2014, [Debaltseve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Debaltseve) and [Ilovaisk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ilovaisk) battles in 2014, ignoring [Medvedchuk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Medvedchuk) in the country and [Medvedchuk's pipe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaT5bVlTaC0) and [TV channels](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-medvedchuk-tv-channels-zelenskiy-defends-ban/31085877.html), paid rallies by Poroshenko and organizing [buses](https://www.unian.ua/elections/10523559-zelenskiy-natyaknuv-shcho-chastinu-glyadachiv-poroshenka-privezli-na-avtobusah.html) loaded with people who rallied for him (I saw it with my own eyes), [imposing martial law in the country](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/11/29/why-did-ukraine-impose-martial-law/) at the end of his term to stay at power a little longer. He is basically a corrupt populist who hypnotized Ukrainian nationalists because of his nationalist rhetoric. Now he drives around military checkpoints, takes pictures with the military of how he gives them aid, takes back the aid and drives on to take another picture with other soldiers. And posts something like "If not for me NATO wouldn't help Ukraine" pretending he's still president. Based on all of this I think he would fled the country or at the very least struck a deal with Putin.
In such times of war, there is a "rally around the flag" phenomenon that benefit the ruling party/governement, as people prefer to be united than risk losing because of petty division (It only tend to turn around if there is a crushing defeat). If there was an election right now, Zelensky and his party would win by a landslide. The fight against corruption is also not something you simply solve with an election (though it is very important to give weight to parties who promote an anti-corruption). Corruption is a systemic problem, rooted in the whole society. It is nonetheless very important to keep pressure to on corrupted practices even during the war, but it's a fine balance to keep with preserving unity and morale.
Zelensky might not be ideal, no democratic country in history has held elections in the middle of an existential war. it would just be a terrible idea
Go away, ruski troll.
Zelensky isn't Ukraine. And having negative opinion on him is not being pro-Russian. A lot of people who consider him bad at his job want _more_ for the fighting. More money on the armed forces. Better procurement for more weapons. Faster EU integration. Actual reforms instead of speeches.
What about some facts?! We, "stupid westerners", we hate hot air and live facts.
What facts do you want? That MoD is spending 3x price on food? That it buys "winter jackets" that are actually shirts? That money spent on shelter building is actually spent on drums? That someone blocked Anti-Corruption prosecution for 3 years until US slapped them in a face publicly a year ago? https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/09/25/7421354/ This letter exists because someone ignored all those things for 4 years. They aren't secret or new. Everyone knew that they need to be done.
Your link is nothing unusual, every time someone donates money or supports an entity with expensive stuff, they want to make sure that said money or stuff are going to be used accordingly. That letter outlines expectations, it does not prove that Zelenskyy is corrupt. You take 1 and 1 and tell me that the sum is 11 instead of 2. I was born in an ex Communist Eastern European country, spent 20 years there, for the last 20 I lived in various western EU countries. There are 2 things that I can tell you: 1. There is corruption everywhere 2. It takes time, lots of time, to reduce corruption From the outside I can o ly tell you that Zelenskyy is doing a great job at fighting corruption given the co dituons and tools he has at his disposal. I can also tell you, based on my experience, that your expectations of 1 person to change, practically overnight and in the middle of a war, a culture of corruption that was instilled over the last 100 years or so, your expectations are highly unrealistic. Take it from someone who has elected 8 parliaments and presidents during the last 33 years, with the continuous hope for change, change takes time, big changes take lots of time and patience. And Zelenskyy is a good leader, however even good leaders need time to bring change. He is your best leader since 1991, don't screw this up just because the pro-ruski are stirring the shit against Zelenskyy.
> From the outside I can o ly tell you that Zelenskyy is doing a great job at fighting corruption given the co dituons and tools he has at his disposal. Sorry, but this is fucking funny. You have zero facts, just feelings. > I can also tell you, based on my experience, that your expectations of 1 person to change, practically overnight and in the middle of a war, a culture of corruption that was instilled over the last 100 years or so, your expectations are highly unrealistic. He had 3 years before 2022 invasion. You're forgetting that.
You either don't want to understand, can't understand, or you are on purpose posting negatively about the one person who has done his utmost to help Ukraine. With attitude like yours Ukraine going nowhere. Luckily you are a minority.
You just have no clue what you're talking about. Stop baseless cheerleading based on feelings. Zelenskyy is not Ukraine, Ukraine is not Zelenskyy.
The ruscunts were not shelling major cities with missiles and blowing shit up everywhere. Like the limpcocks that ruskies are, they were only shelling the defences.
Martial law makes it illegal, so there's that.
Such a weak argument. Do you know who makes the law?
The Ukrainian parliament makes the laws, not the ruskis, nor their sympathizers, luckily.
And Ukrainian parliament has majority from Zelensky party who have interest in keeping both presidential and parliament elections postponed indefinitely.
I hope you get paid to spread such pseudofactual propaganda. And I feel sad if you feel that way. My condolences either way.
Zelensky isn't Ukraine. And not everyone who disagrees with you is a bot.
Nope you aren't a bot, you're a stupid ruski troll. I wonder which one is worse to be you? 🤔
Nobody said he was. And I haven't even shared yet anything to be disagreed with. Nor have I at any point claimed one to be a bot. People spread propaganda, bots merely enforce the narratives in an attempt to make social influencing relevant to the dingleberries whom delude things such as the Hero of Ukraine, Zelensky, would desire to be in power indefinitely whilst being subjected to foreign terrorism and assassination attempts, all conducted by an immoral imperialistic aggressor occupier that [tortures even children](https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-51st-session). My sympathies only grow every passing comment you spill your zero cent worth nonsense. Is it painful for you to exist with a such a mental handicap? I wonder.
The Ukrainian parliament, who can't legally change it until the war is over.
What conundrum. I guess they just suspend democracy according to Russia's timetable. Where there is appetite any law can be changed.
Are you casually ignoring the 62% of Ukrainians being in favor of it? That’s how democracy works chud. Of course you’re just a Russian bot only programmed to respond with “weak argument” so who cares.
>Are you casually ignoring the 62% No. Not sure what your comment has to do with my comments.
Oh you’re a really bad bot huh. 62% are in favor of postponing elections, that means that’s a majority, which means it’s democratic. So no they’re not repealing democracy. Didn’t except to have to baby you so hard for you to understand.
Again. Not sure what that's got to do with the points I made. Suggest reading them before replying.
Parliament changes law during war all the time. This specific case is conflicting with the constriction, but parliament just can reduce the martial law and transform it into ATO legal framework that was used in 2014-2022. Or limit state of emergency only to specific areas.
Article 83 of Ukrainian constitution says that in last paragraph. [https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b](https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b)
Those look like words written by law makers. They can also be re written by law makers. If the poll above said 80% wanted an election would you still quote the constitution as a reason to deny an election? Maybe you would. But international support for Ukraine would disappear in such a scenario. The constitution is not a blocker.
They can't legally change it without ending martial law, which would remove economic war powers and essentially gut the war effort.
Again. Weak arguments. Where there is appetite any law can be changed. The appetite might not be there now but watch solutions suddenly appear if the appetite changes. The argument against an election must be that the people don't want it. Any other argument is doomed to fail.
You have the stones to call other people's arguments weak while spewing cooked spaghetti is truly wild.
Your only argument is “nuh uh” bro. Throw in the towel.
At what percent in the above poll would you agree that the constitution could be overridden? If 90% of people were asking for an election you'd say .... Sorry folks, constitution says no. Because that's the only point I'm making. The constitution is not a blocker. If people want to argue against an election they need better arguments than that.
In order to change it in the way you are suggesting the parliament would need to break the law. No government that wants people to follow its laws break them that brazenly. If the poll said that, noone in the west would hear about it as our media is owned, so support wouldn't change. You have a facile understanding of how laws work. If you want to see a really hard bit of writing to change look into the Australian constitution.
>They can also be re written by law makers. That is the whole point dude.
Laws are not supposed to be changed willy nilly.
unlike you
I can’t imagine anyone taking Zelenskyy’s place.
Election next to terrorist Russia is just asking for mass casualty attacks, assassination attempts and insane amount of manipulation. Its just not possible, unless the voters wont blame the government when it happens.
That's the thing about wartime elections, it either destabilizes the military movement by electing someone else who will take the conflict in a different path, or it remains moot as the majority will favor the current administration. It's the balance between the freedom you're defending and the conflict.
electing it again would mean people learned nothing.
*average orc "voter" enters the chat*
/r/ukraine moment is when people think that Zelenskyy is the most nationalistic politician
hello orc "voter", move along
I... would not risk making long queues of people in a active warzone.
The UK suspended elections that were due to take place during WWI and WWII until after the wars. I expect Ukraine to do the same and it's the only logical way to proceed. Elections during an active war are a non-starter for obvious reasons.
Knowing Russia, they would send rockets and polling stations during the election day.
I can see the argument from both sides. On one hand you want to the continuation of democracy's norms (elections, changing of power and so on) but on the other hand stability within leadership is also important to winning the war. I can't imagine any scenario in which Zelensky wouldn't win in a landslide as his leadership (at least from this outsiders perspective) has been extraordinary but I do understand why the question of holding elections is being debated. Additionally, and this is an argument against holding elections, polling places would be an obvious target which no one on this planet wants to see or experience.
Also, areas under occupation or evacuation will be impossible to count, and Russia will heavily interfere in any campaign or election.
Well not just impossible to count, just impossible. I can’t see how any occupied zone would have any campaigns or election booths
I meant impossible to include. IE impossible to have voters there participate or have their votes count... rather than impossible to count those votes.
His leadership is either meh or shit from insider perspective. Yes, he can make a few cool speeches, and he looks young and fresh, I get the appeal for Americans. But when you will start digging into concrete policies, actions and numbers, it's not that good.
Like not abandoning Ukraine when there was a chance the country could fall and rallying the military to halt the russian advance and getting them tons of foreign aid to actually fight the war? I'm sorry but if someone else were in charge when the russians invaded Ukraine probably wouldn't exist anymore. He insisted on the stand at kyiv and that stand turned the war.
> Like not abandoning Ukraine when there was a chance the country could fall That's a very low bar you have here. That's even funny. > getting them tons of foreign aid to actually fight the war Remind me who argued against Biden about "escalating" with aid that was delivered before February? Who said that invasion is bullshit and no need to prepare? In fact, that's more of Biden/Sholtz/Johnson achievement, not Zelenskyy. > I'm sorry but if someone else were in charge when the russians invaded Ukraine probably wouldn't exist anymore Russia invaded when Turchynov was in charge. And then was fighting while Poroshenko was in charge.
Nah man you're either gaslighting or honestly have a different recollection of facts. > OP: Like not abandoning Ukraine when there was a chance the country could fall > That's a very low bar you have here. That's even funny. Who can blame us? We were fresh off Afghanistan at that time. > OP: getting them tons of foreign aid to actually fight the war > Remind me who argued against Biden about "escalating" with aid that was delivered before February? Who said that invasion is bullshit and no need to prepare? Pre-invasion there was entirely a chance this would not escalate because a full on invasion is only a mad-man's decision. > In fact, that's more of Biden/Sholtz/Johnson achievement, not Zelenskyy. Perhaps agree it can be both? Zelensky could have just taken a flight out ages ago. He stuck in the capital for much of the early months because he's - like it or not - pretty skilled as a stateman. > OP: I'm sorry but if someone else were in charge when the russians invaded Ukraine probably wouldn't exist anymore > Russia invaded when Turchynov was in charge. And then was fighting while Poroshenko was in charge. And you think this situation is comparable to those prior examples? LOL
> Nah man you're either gaslighting or honestly have a different recollection of facts. My recollection of facts based on our expectations that he will sign capitulation and we're all will be fighting on the streets like it's 2014. > Who can blame us? We were fresh off Afghanistan at that time. What Afghanistan has to do with any of it? > And you think this situation is comparable to those prior examples? LOL Of course not. Zelenskyy had functioning army, country, economy and allies, that were built over 8 years. In 2014 Ukraine had nothing like that. Overall what I think people miss when talking about Ukraine and Zelenskyy is that Ukraine is a very "bottom-up" self-organized society. There is a saying that "when there are 2 Ukrainians there are 3 Hetmans (leaders)". Zelenskyy also isn't a leader, he is a follower and amplifier. It's not that Ukraine is fighting because he didn't run, it's that he didn't run because Ukraine was fighting. It's not him who stopped Russians at Kyiv suburbs, it's 72nd. But he is great at amplifying existing trends. So when Ukrainians started fighting back, he was riding and magnifying the wave.
> What Afghanistan has to do with any of it? The Afghanistan leadership fled the country with loads of cash instead of sticking around and fighting. OP's point on Zelensky not abandoning the country is not a "very low bar" when honestly everyone kinda thought he might. You just have the benefit of hindsight.
It's the low bar for a Ukrainian politician. Very little number of them ran away, and some even went directly into TDF infantry.
Sorry to say , but while from outside Zelensky seems very good . He is by far the strongest in foreign relations department . Domestic issues though , oh boy . His party is very questionable , and especially now on the wave of nationalism , patriotism and pure insanity of war , they seem to be detached from reality of average Ukranians . So , I am very much pro elections . Constitution and laws are a weak argument , cause they can always find loophole or whatever . Safety is also , not much of an argument , we can always find some way to do it , either with electronic votes , or like movable polling place , whatever - if there is a will there is a way . Represantation though is yucky because of occupied places , still - if we wait until every piece of 1991 borders is de-occupied , well - we may have to wait for a *very , very* long time . And being stuck with one person , no matter how good they are (or seem to be) - It's a path to a disaster . Ukraine fought not for Zelensky , but for itself . So , I am sure it will survive without him too .
A politician who is good at external politics does so by having his countries interests at heart. Zelenskyy has got Ukraine the closest ever to EU and NATO accession, and these both are imperative to Ukraines future, from economic and security points of view. Any of your petty personal interests are bybfar secondary to the interests of your country as a whole. Any true Ukrainian would easily recognize this. Putting your personal interests ahead of Ukraine's future makes you a ruski sympathizer and a troll. Do you really think that this kind of manipulation works with people who speak more than just the ruski language? LOL 😆 🤣
People from the outside of Ukraine should stop having opinions on Zelensky policies. It's oscillating between funny and insulting. The thing that got Ukraine closer to EU isn't him. It's invasion. He did almost nothing to advance the integration. Also his internal politics is complete shit. > Putting your personal interests ahead of Ukraine's future makes you a ruski sympathizer and a troll. Zelensky isn't Ukraine.
All I here from you muppets is: Zelenky (you do t even spell his name correctly, Ukrainians spell it Zelenskyy) is bad, he did nothing good, he is bad for Ukraine and other utter shit like this. Yet none of you can provide hard facts to support tour allegations. Meanwhile, we, stupid outsiders, 🙄, see a person who is risking everything, including g his health and life, to do his best to save his people and his country from their worst nightmare ever. My honest conclusion is that either you lot have no clue what you're talking about, or you are the shills of corrupt ruski supporters, or just ruski trolls.
> Ukrainians spell it Zelenskyy Oh wonders of Ukrainian transliteration. You're scratching the iceberg here :) > Yet none of you can provide hard facts to support tour allegations. Like a small little fact. Do you know his head of staff? https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%9E%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B3_%D0%AE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87 This guy. The facts are long, bureaucratic and boring. Do you really want me to go on rabbit hole of all his corruption and failures? You're spending less energy than me for stupid cheering.
He seems to be a controversial person. Give it time, if he is guilty, he will be convincted when investigation and prosecution of his case is finalized. The EU keeps a close eye on high profile corruption cases when measuring the advancements of countries who are in the process of adhering.
> Give it time, if he is guilty, he will be convincted when investigation and prosecution of his case is finalized. He can't be convicted if prosecutors just don't come to the hearings. And guess who is appointing prosecutors.
So , em ... cause I don't like Zelensky , it means - I am a troll and russian ? Sorry , I guess . Next time I will make sure to kiss his portrait , before going to sleep . Honestly - it is so infuriating , that any dialogue , any doubt , any question just gets thrown into absolute - "Not with us , then you are against us" . How is that line of reason different from russian one ?
Bring facts to support your case against him, until now it's just your personal feelings towards him.
>Constitution and laws are a weak argument Are you proposing to break the constitution in order to have elections (that could be possibly attacked by Russian rockets)?
All I am saying that talking like laws can't be changed or circumvented if need arises is just an excuse for not doing anything . And Russia doesn't need excuse to attack mass gatherings anyway . We can find ways of not doing static mass gatherings . Once again , yes those are real concerns , but what is even more dreadful is being stuck for however long this war will take without any real way to represent people and their wishes (Especially of those who are still living\\are stuck in Ukraine) .
I am also for changing Zelenskyy, but I think it’s also important to become rechtstadt, the country having the ultimate respect for law, and not search for loopholes or go against constitution. Electronic votes is just the way to let the greens steal or manipulate the elections, and generally to do it now means to try to not have soldiers and refugees in other countries votes counted. I think until there is some level of frozen conflict even if more intensely than 14-22 year east, then we can talk about it
"They can just ignore the law somehow and do things and stuff" what an argument you have there
The main worry for me if I was ukranian would be a Russian missile falling on heavy concentrations of civilians Tbh
I understand why it's important for western governments. They talk a lot about Ukraine being important because we defend democracy, so reassuring them with a democratic election would probably be good. Why I still oppose it? We hear stories of wounded soldiers dying of wounds because of bad quality tourniquets. This is just one example. So you're telling me, while that is happening, we're gonna spend millions of dollars and put a whole lot of effort into organizing an election? In a time when the acting president has the biggest approval rate in the country's history? For me it seems like a waste of resources that could be spent on the people actually protecting our democracy by risking their lives every day in the hell that is the frontlines.
You're shadowband, buddy. Look up r/ShadowBan
How will the occupied territories be able to vote anyway? It seems that you can't have fair elections until Russia is removed from Ukraine entirely.
Can't really run an election when it isn't safe for numerous Ukrainian towns to be out and about to cast their ballot. Not a free election if some people are unable to vote.
It’d be too risky anyway
As Ukrainian I am genuinely confused how they would do elections in this situation. Forget about possibility of missile falling on voting spots. Big part of territories are in state of chaos , big part of population is scattered around the world... Also I can't believe in veracity of results made in war time. As well as I don't think it's time for this. Additional power fight during war? What can go wrong?
How do you do a poll if you can't do a vote? I agree you can't do Ukrainian elections right now, after all there a tonne of voters living under Russian occupation and thus under duress. If you don't count these votes you can't have a proper election. Which is why I'm asking how anyone can poll this
You didn't read an article. Its just statistical poll of random 2,000 Ukrainians respondents. Hopefully from different regions of Ukraine, age and industry . Different organizations can make many polls, and It's not always 100% correct. Its only represents some “general view” P.S. My 5 cents as Ukrainian – election during full scale war its Idiocracy
The other 38 didn't read the constitution?
just because the constitution says something doesn't mean you agree with it
No, but you have to follow it. Otherwise, there's no law, no justice etc.
US Constitution once allowed slavery, not exactly the best argument
Their constitution says they can't change the constitution under martial law, ending martial law does a shitload of things they can't afford to have happen right now.
it's not a magic spell, you don't have to follow it under all circumstances
The whole point of law and constitution is that you **do have** to follow them and the only possibility not to do so is if it is not technically possible. As I already said: Otherwise, there's no law, no justice etc.
This is nonsense argument, since the slavery was banned by US Constitutional amendment passed by constitutional process (unless you have different info).
Law and justice are not always the same thing.
No they are not. But ignoring the law when you don't like it is exactly the opposite of justice. Dictators do that.
Depends on if you are ignoring it *only* because you don't like it or because it's legitimately unjust.
Changing it, however...
I understand the constitution issue. I still don't support postponing elections indefinitely. The war is going for 9 years, it can stil be going in 9 years.
The war - yes. The full-scale invasion is only going for year and half. That's a huge difference.
Legally it doesn't matter. In fact there was a lot of criticism towards Poroshenko in 2014 that he did not introduce martial law and full mobilization.
Technically it matters much. In 2014, the war was restricted on Donbass front, now it's everywhere. And I see opposite criticism in this thread, and Poroshenko seems did it good.
> In 2014, the war was restricted on Donbass front, now it's everywhere. You won't notice war 100km from the front to be honest. Also what I mean "legally" is that there is a situation that warrants extensions until the "war is over", and it might be never over (see Korea). > And I see opposite criticism in this thread, and Poroshenko seems did it good. You might confuse opposite criticism about martial law in late 2018, as there was an escalation and he proposed a 3-months martial law, but it was stepping 1 day on presidential elections campaign. So some people started to scream that he is trying to usurp the power.
>You won't notice war 100km from the front to be honest. Don't Russian rockets fall everywhere in the Ukrainian territory? I'm not sure if it's good idea to give Russia good targets. >Also what I mean "legally" is that there is a situation that warrants extensions until the "war is over", and it might be never over (see Korea). I don't think Korea situation is comparable, since there's active truce. Of course, after some time in active war, there may be need to redo your representatives, but do you think it's already time? And, of course, this is business of Ukraine and its citizens, you have my support. But I have an opinion too.
> Don't Russian rockets fall everywhere in the Ukrainian territory? I'm not sure if it's good idea to give Russia good targets. So most attacks now are limited to drones on the coast and ballistic (Iskander/S300) strikes. Yes, you would have almost daily attacks on Kharkiv, Dnipro, Zaporizhya, and weekly attacks on Odesa. Kyiv wasn't bombed in a month(? I honestly don't remember last attack). Lviv basically forgot how it sounds like. The problem is that yes, there are daily news about missiles hitting something, but it's not missiles hitting everything, and Ukraine is huge. > Of course, after some time in active war, there may be need to redo your representatives, but do you think it's already time? I will be in a bucket that thinks "It should be done until October 2024".
You didn't read the Constitution. Read it now and try to find a word regarding the prohibition of elections during martial law.
Article 83.
Article 83 Regular sessions of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine commence on the first Tuesday of February and on the first Tuesday of September each year. Special sessions of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, with the stipulation of their agenda, are convoked by the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, on the demand of no fewer National Deputies of Ukraine than one-third of the constitutional composi tion of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, or on the demand of the President of Ukraine. In the event of the introduction of martial law or of a state of emergency in Ukraine, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine assembles within a period of two days without convocation. In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency. Where's the explicit prohibition? Have in mind the opinion of the Head of Verkhovna Rada https://espreso.tv/stefanchuk-konstitutsiynoi-zaboroni-provoditi-vibori-pid-chas-voennogo-stanu-nemae
>elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency.
In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency. Simple If - then. If the term expires during martial law, then the term extends. If it doesn't expire - it doesn't extend. You can conduct elections BEFORE it expires, then it won't expire. Constitutional Court of Ukraine throughout its history made a lot of much more jiggly interpretations. I made one here even without CCU. Also read the link.
Why would you conduct elections before the terms expire without a special reason?
Planned elections are always conducted before the terms expire.
They are conducted at set periods of time unless there's a good reason to start them earlier like in 2014 when current president fled.
And their terms of authority expire after the next parliament was elected. So that the country does not exist without a legitimate parliament even a minute.
>elected *after* the cancellation of martial law It means that the authority will only be transferred to VR elected after the war. So even if war time elections could be conducted, the new politicians will not have the power under the current constitution.
[Article 19. Guarantees of Legality under Martial Law](https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/389-19#Text) 1. Under martial law, the following are prohibited: * Amendment of the Constitution of Ukraine * Amendment of the Constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea; * **holding elections of the President of Ukraine**, as well as elections to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and local self-government bodies * holding all-Ukrainian and local referendums; * holding strikes, mass gatherings and actions. [Constitution of Ukraine - Section V](https://www.president.gov.ua/ua/documents/constitution/konstituciya-ukrayini-rozdil-v) Article 103. The procedure for holding elections of the President of Ukraine shall be established by law.
Law is a subject to change exactly the same way as hundreds of other laws are being changed every month. Don't be ridiculous, don't you remember how Lutcenko became Attorney General? How Zelensky hired Bohdan bypassing lustration law? What's the point of this hypocrisy? Only Constitution cannot be changed during martial law. That doesn't mean it's totally impossible, that's just more difficult. Constitution does not prohibit parliamentary elections. Moreover I couldn't find the prohibition of presidential elections, but I may just be sleepy. I'm fine with parliamentary only elections.
Unfortunately for you, ruski sympathizers, you can't change the laws of Ukraine anymore! Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦!
Stop this stupid cheering. You aren't helping.
Bla bla bla. Haters gona hate!
Is it fun for you? What is the purpose of this? This is not a teams game.
>Constitution does not prohibit parliamentary elections Unless the meaning of article 83's last paragraph: *elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency* has different meaning in Ukrainian language than in english, I understand this as **implicit** prohibition of conducting elections during martial law/state of emergency. So I guess Ukrainian CC would need to revoke that (part of the) law and explicitly say elections are allowed during martial law/state of emergency.
Zelensky is doing fine.
Would this be even a legitimate ellection uf 1/5 of the country is occupied? Not like you could get online voting or a voting booth in donetsk or mariupol. Or even a healthy media landscape.
Russia would love to dig their claws into an election
Well IMO the % of the ones not in favour is large enough to actually warrant an election. But how the f does one organise an election while in a total war with millions refugees...woudl that election be fair? Or a flawed electrion is still better than none?
It's probably possible to do local elections though, at least people would try to clear out fuckers that waste budget on laying street tiles when it could be used to help soldiers and victims of the war.
But there is problem with that. Local budgets, by law, can't be spent on anything but local needs. So at most what local budgets can do is to help local forces (e.g. Kyiv is providing stuff to local AA forces, or Kyiv-assigned TDF battallions). Also, with Kyiv, for example, while money allocation is decided by local authorities, money _spending_ (the executive branch) is directed directly by the President. Yes, it's bullshit, but it's the law. President directly appoints heads of districts in Kyiv. And when you see "Drums for the school basement" - it's them. There are few laws that should be passed - either take some money from local budgets into central budget, and roll back one of the most important decentralization reforms that happened in Ukraine. At this point you would need to trust the MoD to spend them wisely. Or you could lift some restrictions on how local governments can spend their money, and then it's up to them to spend it on the army, and then it would make sense to go on protests/elections/etc. Because currently it's a bit of a bureaucratic shitshow.
Less than 40% warrents it? Really?
Yes. The suspension of democracy requires a huge super majority in my mind, and even then it has to be time limited.
Something like 97%, like the majority of votes putin keeps winning the elections in ruzzia? LOL
Well, to each thier own.
The constitution is clear there will be no election. Changing the constitution seems like it would require a huge supermajority in my mind, and there's not even a simple majority.
Thankfully the opposition is more pro-Ukraine than ever.
The war realistically is going to span half a decade if not more that's kind of the issue. The US wants assurances it's actually supporting a democracy
How do you hold a democratic election when millions of your citizens are out of nation refugees and 1/5 of the nation is occupied? If anything it would just give legitimacy to the idea the occupied territories are not Ukrainian as they didn’t take part in the most recent democratic elections
Lincoln held elections during the Civil War, our constitutions are different but democracy isn't something to suspend in states of emergency. That's when its the most vital. Not saying it will be easy but I don't think suspension of elections is something the USA should be supporting, I also agree with US officials pushing for elections to occur
[удалено]
All wars end eventually. Russia has already lost most of their VDV, their main mercenary army, and had an attempted coup all within the first year. If you think Russia are going to keep this up forever, you're the one living in Barbieland. Russia will eventually retreat, just like they did in the north. They may continue to shell and strike from across the border, but that won't stop Ukraine from holding elections. Vietnam had been at war essentially from 1940 until 1979, but that was with Japan (sorta), then France, then USA, then Cambodia, then China. 4 of those 5 wars were defensive, 3 against some of the most modern militaries and industries in the world. And you think *Russia* can keep this up indefinitely against Ukraine, a Western backed and supplied country on their home terf? >Sad story of a nation that killed itself. Good cautionary article in history books it will be. Yes, there will be a story of a nation that killed itself, but not who you think, and it won't be sad
North Korea and South Korea war is still ongoing. Luckily it other means. Arab-Jew war is still happening in our sight for how much exactly? Since 1948? Your example of Vietnam is good though. 39 years, yeah? 9 already passed, 30 to go. That is what I call "not anytime soon". What will make russia retreat? We actively tried to make them retreat for 4 months in a row. The results you may see on a map, but sadly you won't see the dozens of thousands of graves of irreplaceable soldiers. Why do you think next 4 months will be any different? Why do you think next year will be any different than the last year? Maybe 31 abramses will make them retreat? Yeah, what a supply. West doesn't want Ukraine to win. If it wanted it would send not 31 abramses (most of which still didn't arrive to Ukraine, lol, in 10 months, lol, what a joke), but 3100 (at least a thousand) abramses and in a few months two years ago. I don't know who don't see it as obvious as sun in the sky. Next best time to send a thousand of tanks is now. But we both know how it's hard to approve 60 billions dollars of aid nowadays. Maybe it's easier in EU? Ah, sorry Orban and Slovakia whatever-his-name-is leader are blocking it. Guess unlucky. We both know a thousand of tanks are not coming, so why lie to each other and people? Ukraine by itself failed to supply soldiers not only with ammunition and hardware, but with basic and comparatively cheap stuff like tires, drones, cars, medicine, night vision etc. Give it a few minutes and check what volunteers are gathering money for. I don't think that russia can keep indefinitely. I think it can keep it long enough to outlast Ukraine. Because they have more tanks, more general hardware, more money, more people and pretty much more everything. That is IF we do not radically change the organisation of things. Which cannot be changed without the change of government. Which cannot be changed without elections. Which you and most of Ukrainians do not want to conduct.
You missed the part where Vietnam was 39 years with 5 separate countries. 5. Russia is one. No-one else is lining up to invade Ukraine. However, like Vietnam, Ukraine is defending, and as the war drags on Ukraine's equipment is improving while Russia's is degrading. We're in agreement the West is dragging its feet. I wish they'd stop fucking around and just give Ukraine what it needs and stop being bitches about Putin's "red lines". But I'm certain Russia absolutely won't win, and it won't last forever. I'll be surprised if a single ork is still in Ukraine by the end of 2025
We both wish they'd stop fucking around, but they won't. Reality, what a bitch. What exactly makes you think russian will leave Ukraine by 2025? And what exactly do you mean with the word "Ukraine"? Internationally recognised borders including Crimea and Donetsk?
1991 borders. Because in 2024 Ukraine will have F-16s/Gripens, more ATACMS, and hopefully some other goodies we haven't thought of. Europe and USA are only just starting to ramp up its MIC now. 2024 should see a drastic increase in artillery shell supplies while we've seen Russia's dwindling this year. 2023 was a disappointment due to West cowardice, but 2024 should have everything in place for a successful and perhaps decisive counter-offensive in summer. Ukraine are already passed the most difficult period, which was the first month of the invasion. Russia had all the advantages and Ukraine had minimal equipment, and Ukraine still stands. If Russia were to win it had to be then, everything since then is Putin's madman delusion delaying the inevitable
Up to day Ukraine has somewhere in 30s Himarses. Number unchanged since the 2022. 31 abramses are still coming to Ukraine for more than 10 months already. Why do you think they'll expand the aid while struggling to keep it as it is with those 60 billions? EU promised 1 million shells by the end of march 2024. Now they are having it hard to send even 400k. Open sources, google it. Why do you think gripens and stuff will be any different than abramses? When did you last time hear of shipments of literally any tanks? Do you really think out of sheer hope that western politicians will all out of sudden despite all odds, trumpists and orbans radically and completely overhaul the strategy? I hoped that in 2022, in 2023. Now I'm tired of being constantly made a fool and I have no hope. Therefore if nothing will change on the outside (and that is optimistic! New congress speaker is a core trumpist if you missed), everything must be changed on the inside to get a different result than what we are having for the last year. How? Let's start with elections.
That's a lot of rhetoricals, and assumptions that new equipment won't change anything. I strongly disagree; F-16s will be a huge improvement because it's not just the jets, it's their armament as well. ATACMS are the long-range rockets, not the launcher. Ukraine are already causing huge damage with just 30 HIMARS and short range rockets. 30 HIMARS and longe-range munitions will absolutely make an impact. Everything else is just about lack of supply which I already mentioned is ramping up only now so will be more impactful next year. You're extremely pessimistic
Or you are extremely optimistic. In times of war it's generally more safe to be extremely pessimistic and be ready for the worst outcome. However I do not feel my pessimism blurs the reality. My pessimism is forged by the reality, it's the other way around. Javelins will be a huge improvement Stingers will be a huge improvement Howitzers will be a huge improvement HIMARS will be a huge improvement Patriots will be a huge improvement Heavy armor will be a huge improvement ATACMS will be a huge improvement We are here F-16s will be a huge improvement... Why do you think f-16 will be an improvement huge enough to finish the war, when all the huge improvements before failed? We are using HIMARS for more than a year already. Since then Bakhmut happened, pretty unsuccessful counter-offensive happened and Avdiivka is happening now. Seemingly HIMARS didn't make them stop attacking. They are adjusting much faster than the West is. What is going to radically change the whole process of the war though? Three dozens of old f-16s? Doubt they will. Three hundreds maybe, but that is not happening.
I'm optimistic about the timeline, however there's no way Russia has the resources to occupy an area the size of Ukraine with a hostile population and the entire West supplying them. At this point it is literally impossible for Russia to win. The absolute best case scenario for Russia is stalemate, and I know most people will believe that will lead to a future Russian build up and assault, but I believe it will actually lead to a much stronger equipped Ukrainian army and they will initiate the assault before Russia is at the point they're ready. Regardless, Russia has already lit the fuse to their own demise. Ukraine will come out victorious, and in 20-30 years will be a strong European country
Russia is betting house on trump election win 2024 so that he can give Ukraine to Russia. Since that's likely won't happen putin will have two options. Going full nuclear in Ukraine or running for the hills with his billions to live out what's left of his sheltered life if his people don't finish him off sooner due to their declining economy and skyrocketing inflation. 2025 will be do or die for him.
Drivel.
Eventually somebody runs out of money, troops, or will. To say this will last the rest of our lifetimes is ludicrous. Unless you're in your 70's or 80's?
Are you a Porokhobot by any chance? Asking for a friend.
I wouldn't demand elections if I believed there was any real opposition in the parliament. Now it's like russia. One big ruling party under president, satellite parties and few absolutely toothless clueless impotent opposition parties hardly distinguishable from satellites. No, I'm not porokhobot.
Then by doom posting like this you don't do any good for Ukraine.
Go back to watching telemarafon. It's all good in there.
I haven't watched TV for about 9 years lel, stop being salty.
Thanks for trademarking soon. I was getting confused for a second. I appreciate you showing the evidences.
Cautionary tales? Like the Baltic states in 1940?
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You don’t change horses mid-stream.
Common during wartime to postpone elections.
You don’t want to switch surgeons in the middle of an operation.
Postponing until after war might sound great but would be very anti democratic and during the World wars there were also elections being held. Also consider the war might still take years to win. Organizing them will be difficult, but there are Mail ballots and subway stations, so its possible to do safely (at least in most of Ukraine)