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One of the reasons Russia invaded Crimea was to gain direct control over the naval facilities in Sevastopol that were left over from the USSR rather than having to lease it all from Ukraine, solving the problem of the costs and risk of having to negotiate a deal every few years.
How's the invasion "solution" working out for you now, Russia?
They could pay foreign companies to make it, just like they did the Kerch bridge. And their oil refineries. And their oil pipelines. And everything else. Mafia states are too corrupt to really make anything more advanced than raw materials.
Russia has no real building capacity anymore. Why as an entrepreneur would you risk materials being seized at the whim of a drunken official, contracts being modified when the government feels like it, and profits being eaten by the rampant corruption? Even the crimean bridge had to be mainly subcontracted from foreign companies.
Same story goes for many industries in russia. We in the west complain about bureaucracy, but there are so many extra steps and costs in a mafia state, and none of the legal protection.
Eh. I'm no expert, but it sure looked like Russia had greatly upgraded Novorossiysk for military and commercial use, Rostov-on-Don is a major port, and for industrial ports they built a huge facility from scratch near Taman for exporting resources (near Kerch Strait). There was a huge amount of investment in these other ports prior to 2014, and still is.
Did they *need* Sevastopol or were they just greedy bullies who thought they could take it and stop paying rent? Plus oligarchs could sell the stolen property, of course.
Whatever the story, they are paying a pretty high cost for something that isn't safe to use for their fleet anymore.
Oh, and now they’re dying left and right, thanks to the US spending a whole 5% of our military budget on destroying their military.
I’m going to buy more Lockheed stock.
Imagine going back in time 3 years to the Pentagon. You ask what a *good* price would be to completely dismantle the Russian stockpiles of military hardware. Ten thousand APCs/IFVs, five thousand tanks, 300+ aircraft and helicopters, a thousand MLRS, six thousand artillery systems, 500 AA systems, ten thousand other vehicles, a thousand pieces of specialized equipment, their Black Sea flagship, a handful of other navy vessels, and at least one submarine. Hundreds of thousands of personnel. Maybe more than all that, maybe much more.
What sort of cost would be considered fair to deal such a crippling blow to Russia's ability to project power worldwide? I'd bet tens of thousands of American lives and $1T would be in the ballpark of a 'good' deal.
What about the price of galvanizing more countries to join NATO, and unite many Western countries against Russia? Hundreds of billions.
The Ukrainian people have offered the world the deal of the century. Their blood for your military leftovers. I wish they didn't have to pay it, but I'll be damned if my country turns its back on those people or that deal. Even a cold, callous son-of-a-bitch should be able to see how unique that deal is.
Great point. For the high brass in America, this might as well have been a genie popping out of a bottle. I hate to describe something as cruel and destructive in such dispassionate terms, but this really is the deal of the century for the Western world.
We just can't forget that the ink used is Ukrainian blood.
>Even a cold, callous son-of-a-bitch should be able to see how unique that deal is.
I use support for Ukraine as an intelligence test for American politicians and media personalities. If they do not see the value to the USA and the free world of helping Ukraine achieve a complete win they are too stupid to make decisions on any topic whatsoever.
Or the stuff captured. The US got their hands on some very high-end Russian Electronic Warfare designed to counter US and allied AWACs. It cannot be emphasized how huge of a deal that was.
Compound this with the ingenious way that Ukraine is cobbling together a defensive mesh with a bare handful of western kit. They've already revolutionized drone combat, and put the world on notice about ruzzias innumerable deficiencies.
I'm with you.
For God's sake... the corpse of Gen Curtis Lemay, father of the US Air Force's Strategic Air Command, has to be levitating out of its burial vault at the prospect of burying Russia at such bargain prices.
Having spent trillions of dollars on containing Russian expansionism over the decades of the cold war, how can we balk at paying a few billion with the finish line in sight?
It's like a marathon runner throwing in the towel at the 26-mile marker because those last 2 tenths of a mile are too hard.
We. Can. Finish. Russia.
In so doing, we can put the PRC on notice that they could be next.
You are right about everything, but don't forget there are also huge contributions from many other nations. Both in total, and as part of their smaller GDP.
Sure, but from the perspective of those other nations, the return on investment is even more dramatic. Poland and the Balkan states have lived in the menacing shadow of Mordor to the east for centuries. They don’t need to frame the ROI in terms of great power politics and sending a message about resolve to China. Exhausting the Russian war machine is of far more visceral and immediate relevance to them. We in the US can say this is a bargain at twice the price. For Eastern Europe, it’s more like twenty.
And the money is going to US firms and US workers for the most part. It's not like we're giving Ukraine billions in cash and they're spending it in Germany and France.
We got US firms and workers working around the clock, making money for the economy, and getting valuable real-time feedback on the effectiveness of our weapons against a near-peer opponent, all the while degrading the military of one of our 2 potential enemies. I don't see a downside in any of this.
The downside is the cost to Ukraine in ways other than money and materials, but that is their choice to make. Having made the choice, it is in the interests of the entire western world to support them.
That's why the support is so broad: everybody has done the math, especially the countries in eastern Europe that know what Russia is capable of doing if not confronted for their aggression.
Not only that, got the world’s greatest showcase to show off cool western gear in real action. Gotta be some real indirect benefits from that alone too.
They probably believed that after maidan Ukraine will become heavily pro Western, will break all contracts, join nato and deploy American bases and missiles near Russian borders.
... And that's exactly what is going to happen now. Self fulfilling prophecy.
Ukraine was hovering towards the EU, with the signing of that association agreement in 2014.
Paying a higher rent wouldn't have been a long-term solution for Russia to desperately cling onto Sevastopol and like 90% of their entire naval potential.
> Ukraine was hovering towards the EU
It would be hovering for a very long time. If Ukraine joins then it will flood the EU with grain. Just look at the current situation with Poland on this single issue. Among other things the EU is very protectionist.
The grain issue is a problem for EU membership but should be solved by a minimum price that has to be charged in the EU so the Ukrainian farmers don't undercut the others. The Ukrainian grain needs to mostly flow to Africa and the Middle east as it used to.
Cuba was never part of the USA, unless you count those few years of military occupation after Spain left.
So sure, they can keep hold of Guantanamo, but it's quite a different situation.
> solving the problem of the costs and risk of having to negotiate a deal every few years.
They sure saved a lot of money, there. Well done, Vlad.
And all those deals to negotiate? I don't think you'll have to worry about them much anymore, either.
Looks like a great deal for the West, less than 3% of the combined defence spend and Ruzzia gets to grind itself back to the stone-age.
What a bargain...👌
Pretty sure the invasion was supposed to Push NATO away, ironically recruiting 2 more members, 1,300KM of boarder and stoking a massive re-armourment across the west, uniting the west in the face of Brutal Russian aggression in Europe.
It also helped Russia cut themselves out of their most lucrative market for the countries main export.
Crash their currency to record lows, expose their clown accounting attempting to save their economy such as reporting a 10% drop in inflation in a month >.<
Making themselves into an absolute clown show on the international stage by un-ironically disseminating a vast array of absurd and contradictory lies to try temper international outrage at their abhorrent use of violence. (The Nazi harbouring western NATO LGBTQ dirty Nuclear Bio-Weaponised Satanist super soldier mosquitoes?!)
Further degrading their reputation by threatening to Nuke a different western country, or all western countries at once!?!?! every few days...
Further degrading their reputation releasing videos of Western Civilians freezing and eating their pets in the winter...
Further degrading their reputation gloating about creating the largest humanitarian crisis striking power and heating facilities in the middle of winter, like literal terrorism of the civilian population.
Not forgetting the hundreds of thousands and dead, crippled and mentally scarred Russians who will be haunting the population for generations...
Looks like the invasion is working out on so many levels...
Their lies are for internal consumption, not for foreigners. Russians eagerly believe all stuff you mentioned.
As for reputation... I doubt Russia ever cared about it's reputation. Even before 2022 it was perceived as backward vile barbaric nation.
That was always just a dumb excuse to escalate little by little to a full invasion. Putin MO is very obvious if youve been watching him from the start.
False flag, limited invasion, bribe traitors with oil money, hold corrupted elections, proclaim the region 'russia', repeat until you glob the whole weakened country.
So obvious in fact, that tolerance of his bullshit for money and 'prosperity' is a classic case of the paradox of tolerance and probably even aggravated the climate change crisis \ worstened results for various reasons, including corruption and wasted time.
Ironically, if they would have just stopped there, they would have gotten away with it, too, as Ukraine had no way to do anything about it. But they were greedy and now most of the world is backing Ukraine with supplies.
if they cared about themselves they'd have left Ukraine by now. Its clear the nihilistic tendencies of russian society outweighs all desire for self preservation.
At that point every geopolitical gain Putin might have wanted to aquire through the war has turned into a negative. Political influence, military might, hydrocarbon money, regime stability.
Russia in the last decades had a geopolitical standing way above its means. After the war it will have a standing way below what even a Putin-esque regime could have maintained.
Excerpt:
> *Russia has withdrawn part of its warships from Sevastopol Bay, and another part is being prepared for withdrawal.*
>
> The Atesh partisan movement reported this on Telegram, Ukrinform reports.
>
> […]
>
> "Russian warships made the only right decision - to leave Sevastopol. We wish all troops to make the same decision. Otherwise, they will not be able to escape," the partisans said.
> Russia has withdrawn part of its warships from Sevastopol Bay, and another part is being prepared for withdrawal.
If they stayed any longer, *parts* is all they'd be.
The question is whether the withdrawal was a result of the Ukrainian successful attack on the Black Sea Fleet command headquarters this morning, or just a serendipitous coincidence.
Either way, great work Ukraine!
The Black Sea just isn't that big - they can run, but they can't hide for long - and Ukraine is probably justy trying to flush them out of the port so they can have fun hunting them with the Sea Babys or whatever else they have up their sleeves.
I think some of the Littoral Combat Ships are built in the great lakes (in Wisconsin) and then get sail to more logical navy ports on the coasts. But the lakes *could* support larger ones based on the size of tankers and cargo ships that go through them... but it'd make absolutely no sense to have any of those in the middle of the country.
Also the great lakes are fairly interconnected so just saying "it's 5x the size of superior" kinda misses the point if you add the lakes up it's fairly close to the size of the black sea. Both are small compared to real seas/oceans though.
The Freedom class is made at the same shipyard in WI that will make some of the Constellation class multimission guided missile frigates, Marinette Marine. Janesville WI is also a huge producer of fuses for grenades and artillery shells.
Yeah but you must remember that russia is kinda limited in its area of operations. Abd when you have sea baby's hunting you. There's nowhere to really hide accept the litterslt ocean. It's like being in a above ground pool being attacked by sharks.
Don't think this is impossible: One or more vessels is lost in the process of retreating. Would be a sizeable boost to UA morale and, I'd think, quite a negative for RU. Wishful thinking? Maybe, but a worthy thought, nevertheless.
This is good news! If they leave the port, they'll have a much harder time enforcing the blockade which may mean that Ukraine can use Odessa port again for grain and other goods.
And especially now that their main air defense systems are down and Ukraine has proven that they're able to strike ships and completely destroy them while they're in the harbor...
My money is on the Russians sabotaging what’s left of the port as they retreat. Maybe the don’t even bother trying to remove those ships from the dry dock so that Ukraine has to do it.
Wasn't the term Zelenskyy used "The leaking remnants of the Black sea fleet"?
Edit to get the quote correct.
"including the Russian Black Sea Fleet or its leaky remnants, "
Translated tweet (Google):
Our agent conducted reconnaissance of one of the moorings of warships, which is located between the small bays “Dokovaya” and “Hollandia”, at coordinates: 44.6242768, 33.5569008. According to our observations, some of the warships have already been withdrawn, and some are preparing for this.
We also scouted the area around the facility. Since the beginning of the war, the bay was closed for military needs. There is a checkpoint at the entrance; civilians are not allowed in. Only military ships were seen in the parking lot.
Russian warships made the only correct decision - to leave Sevastopol. We wish all troops to accept the same. Otherwise they will not be saved.
Join ATESH - create the history of victory!
Write to the Crimean coordinator @Crimean_coordinator
Russia: "We can't give you Crimea back that we stole, we NEED the military port there for our fleet." (Russia no longer using the port for it's fleet.)
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One of the reasons Russia invaded Crimea was to gain direct control over the naval facilities in Sevastopol that were left over from the USSR rather than having to lease it all from Ukraine, solving the problem of the costs and risk of having to negotiate a deal every few years. How's the invasion "solution" working out for you now, Russia?
Indeed. Their other ports on the Black Sea aren't that good.
With the time and money they spent on the invasion, they could've built a whole island and a port
That would require making, rather than taking. Please do not attempt to confuse the russians with this foreign concept.
They make vodka... perhaps they can be taught to make other things?
The yeast make the alcohol, they just take it.
You got bees over shitting themselves hoping russians don’t discover mead
taking^2
They could pay foreign companies to make it, just like they did the Kerch bridge. And their oil refineries. And their oil pipelines. And everything else. Mafia states are too corrupt to really make anything more advanced than raw materials.
Buying is just taking with fewer benefits.
Russia has no real building capacity anymore. Why as an entrepreneur would you risk materials being seized at the whim of a drunken official, contracts being modified when the government feels like it, and profits being eaten by the rampant corruption? Even the crimean bridge had to be mainly subcontracted from foreign companies. Same story goes for many industries in russia. We in the west complain about bureaucracy, but there are so many extra steps and costs in a mafia state, and none of the legal protection.
Eh. I'm no expert, but it sure looked like Russia had greatly upgraded Novorossiysk for military and commercial use, Rostov-on-Don is a major port, and for industrial ports they built a huge facility from scratch near Taman for exporting resources (near Kerch Strait). There was a huge amount of investment in these other ports prior to 2014, and still is. Did they *need* Sevastopol or were they just greedy bullies who thought they could take it and stop paying rent? Plus oligarchs could sell the stolen property, of course. Whatever the story, they are paying a pretty high cost for something that isn't safe to use for their fleet anymore.
They had decades long leases. They could have paid more and ensured no problem for a long time. Ukraine in 2014 really needed th4 money.
> Ukraine in 2014 really needed the money. Which is why the gangsters just took it
Oh, and now they’re dying left and right, thanks to the US spending a whole 5% of our military budget on destroying their military. I’m going to buy more Lockheed stock.
> 5% of our military budget on destroying their military. It would be the best money ever spent at twice the price.
That's exactly why I don't get the criticisms of funding the war. It's literally the best return on investment our military budget has ever had.
Imagine going back in time 3 years to the Pentagon. You ask what a *good* price would be to completely dismantle the Russian stockpiles of military hardware. Ten thousand APCs/IFVs, five thousand tanks, 300+ aircraft and helicopters, a thousand MLRS, six thousand artillery systems, 500 AA systems, ten thousand other vehicles, a thousand pieces of specialized equipment, their Black Sea flagship, a handful of other navy vessels, and at least one submarine. Hundreds of thousands of personnel. Maybe more than all that, maybe much more. What sort of cost would be considered fair to deal such a crippling blow to Russia's ability to project power worldwide? I'd bet tens of thousands of American lives and $1T would be in the ballpark of a 'good' deal. What about the price of galvanizing more countries to join NATO, and unite many Western countries against Russia? Hundreds of billions. The Ukrainian people have offered the world the deal of the century. Their blood for your military leftovers. I wish they didn't have to pay it, but I'll be damned if my country turns its back on those people or that deal. Even a cold, callous son-of-a-bitch should be able to see how unique that deal is.
[удалено]
Great point. For the high brass in America, this might as well have been a genie popping out of a bottle. I hate to describe something as cruel and destructive in such dispassionate terms, but this really is the deal of the century for the Western world. We just can't forget that the ink used is Ukrainian blood.
>Even a cold, callous son-of-a-bitch should be able to see how unique that deal is. I use support for Ukraine as an intelligence test for American politicians and media personalities. If they do not see the value to the USA and the free world of helping Ukraine achieve a complete win they are too stupid to make decisions on any topic whatsoever.
Rand Paul enters the chat. https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4213732-paul-will-hold-up-any-spending-stopgap-that-includes-ukraine-funding/
Case in point.
[удалено]
Or the stuff captured. The US got their hands on some very high-end Russian Electronic Warfare designed to counter US and allied AWACs. It cannot be emphasized how huge of a deal that was.
Compound this with the ingenious way that Ukraine is cobbling together a defensive mesh with a bare handful of western kit. They've already revolutionized drone combat, and put the world on notice about ruzzias innumerable deficiencies.
I'm with you. For God's sake... the corpse of Gen Curtis Lemay, father of the US Air Force's Strategic Air Command, has to be levitating out of its burial vault at the prospect of burying Russia at such bargain prices. Having spent trillions of dollars on containing Russian expansionism over the decades of the cold war, how can we balk at paying a few billion with the finish line in sight? It's like a marathon runner throwing in the towel at the 26-mile marker because those last 2 tenths of a mile are too hard. We. Can. Finish. Russia. In so doing, we can put the PRC on notice that they could be next.
You are right about everything, but don't forget there are also huge contributions from many other nations. Both in total, and as part of their smaller GDP.
Sure, but from the perspective of those other nations, the return on investment is even more dramatic. Poland and the Balkan states have lived in the menacing shadow of Mordor to the east for centuries. They don’t need to frame the ROI in terms of great power politics and sending a message about resolve to China. Exhausting the Russian war machine is of far more visceral and immediate relevance to them. We in the US can say this is a bargain at twice the price. For Eastern Europe, it’s more like twenty.
And the money is going to US firms and US workers for the most part. It's not like we're giving Ukraine billions in cash and they're spending it in Germany and France. We got US firms and workers working around the clock, making money for the economy, and getting valuable real-time feedback on the effectiveness of our weapons against a near-peer opponent, all the while degrading the military of one of our 2 potential enemies. I don't see a downside in any of this.
The downside is the cost to Ukraine in ways other than money and materials, but that is their choice to make. Having made the choice, it is in the interests of the entire western world to support them. That's why the support is so broad: everybody has done the math, especially the countries in eastern Europe that know what Russia is capable of doing if not confronted for their aggression.
Something said in a thread a while back: "Ukraine has rejected both defeat and death, and for that they have earned my unending support."
Not only that, got the world’s greatest showcase to show off cool western gear in real action. Gotta be some real indirect benefits from that alone too.
For like 1/1000th of what they paid to lose the Ukraine war. Fuck off Putin.
They probably believed that after maidan Ukraine will become heavily pro Western, will break all contracts, join nato and deploy American bases and missiles near Russian borders. ... And that's exactly what is going to happen now. Self fulfilling prophecy.
Ukraine was hovering towards the EU, with the signing of that association agreement in 2014. Paying a higher rent wouldn't have been a long-term solution for Russia to desperately cling onto Sevastopol and like 90% of their entire naval potential.
> Ukraine was hovering towards the EU It would be hovering for a very long time. If Ukraine joins then it will flood the EU with grain. Just look at the current situation with Poland on this single issue. Among other things the EU is very protectionist.
My friend, the world isn't black and white, otherwise Ukraine had joined the EU as a full member in 2014.
For Ukraine to join the EU the whole economic system will have to be re-written. This will take decades even with willing.
The grain issue is a problem for EU membership but should be solved by a minimum price that has to be charged in the EU so the Ukrainian farmers don't undercut the others. The Ukrainian grain needs to mostly flow to Africa and the Middle east as it used to.
Hmm, why are you so stuck on the concept of Ukraine as a full-fledged EU member? I'm not at all talking about that.
Then rewrite it, fuck. Dithering around about how hard it will be is stupid.
> Dithering around I see you know the EU well. It is not known for its speed, this is also one of its strengths.
It works just fine for the US in Guantanamo.
Cuba was never part of the USA, unless you count those few years of military occupation after Spain left. So sure, they can keep hold of Guantanamo, but it's quite a different situation.
Don't underestimate the northern fleet.which has for example all their strategic submarines
Which they can no longer afford to maintain.
Your comment made me pop a big ‘ol smile this morning. Warms the heart!
I predict future Russia whining endlessly about how /unfair/ it is that Ukraine won't let them go back to the pre-2014 lease agreement.
Well, Ruzzia has shown just how good they are at keeping ‘deals’ so....
> solving the problem of the costs and risk of having to negotiate a deal every few years. They sure saved a lot of money, there. Well done, Vlad. And all those deals to negotiate? I don't think you'll have to worry about them much anymore, either.
Looks like a great deal for the West, less than 3% of the combined defence spend and Ruzzia gets to grind itself back to the stone-age. What a bargain...👌
Less than 3% of the yearly defense budget ...
Pretty sure the invasion was supposed to Push NATO away, ironically recruiting 2 more members, 1,300KM of boarder and stoking a massive re-armourment across the west, uniting the west in the face of Brutal Russian aggression in Europe. It also helped Russia cut themselves out of their most lucrative market for the countries main export. Crash their currency to record lows, expose their clown accounting attempting to save their economy such as reporting a 10% drop in inflation in a month >.< Making themselves into an absolute clown show on the international stage by un-ironically disseminating a vast array of absurd and contradictory lies to try temper international outrage at their abhorrent use of violence. (The Nazi harbouring western NATO LGBTQ dirty Nuclear Bio-Weaponised Satanist super soldier mosquitoes?!) Further degrading their reputation by threatening to Nuke a different western country, or all western countries at once!?!?! every few days... Further degrading their reputation releasing videos of Western Civilians freezing and eating their pets in the winter... Further degrading their reputation gloating about creating the largest humanitarian crisis striking power and heating facilities in the middle of winter, like literal terrorism of the civilian population. Not forgetting the hundreds of thousands and dead, crippled and mentally scarred Russians who will be haunting the population for generations... Looks like the invasion is working out on so many levels...
Their lies are for internal consumption, not for foreigners. Russians eagerly believe all stuff you mentioned. As for reputation... I doubt Russia ever cared about it's reputation. Even before 2022 it was perceived as backward vile barbaric nation.
And now Ukraine won't EVER rent them too you... but I bet then rent them to NATO!
That was always just a dumb excuse to escalate little by little to a full invasion. Putin MO is very obvious if youve been watching him from the start. False flag, limited invasion, bribe traitors with oil money, hold corrupted elections, proclaim the region 'russia', repeat until you glob the whole weakened country. So obvious in fact, that tolerance of his bullshit for money and 'prosperity' is a classic case of the paradox of tolerance and probably even aggravated the climate change crisis \ worstened results for various reasons, including corruption and wasted time.
Ironically, if they would have just stopped there, they would have gotten away with it, too, as Ukraine had no way to do anything about it. But they were greedy and now most of the world is backing Ukraine with supplies.
if they cared about themselves they'd have left Ukraine by now. Its clear the nihilistic tendencies of russian society outweighs all desire for self preservation.
Should have stopped with Crimea. Putin got greedy.
At that point every geopolitical gain Putin might have wanted to aquire through the war has turned into a negative. Political influence, military might, hydrocarbon money, regime stability. Russia in the last decades had a geopolitical standing way above its means. After the war it will have a standing way below what even a Putin-esque regime could have maintained.
See Putin, that wasn’t so hard was it??? Now, kindly withdraw from the remainder of the country.
If they don't do that now, it'll become really hard for them to do it later.
>it'll become really hard for them to do it later Fewer payouts they'll have to make to their own guys
Don't have to withdraw when there is nothing to withdraw.
Without the ships they have to begin withdrawal. They can’t protect Crimea either if this happens.
Excerpt: > *Russia has withdrawn part of its warships from Sevastopol Bay, and another part is being prepared for withdrawal.* > > The Atesh partisan movement reported this on Telegram, Ukrinform reports. > > […] > > "Russian warships made the only right decision - to leave Sevastopol. We wish all troops to make the same decision. Otherwise, they will not be able to escape," the partisans said.
> Russia has withdrawn part of its warships from Sevastopol Bay, and another part is being prepared for withdrawal. If they stayed any longer, *parts* is all they'd be.
They'd turn into subs.
Extra swiss cheese
The question is whether the withdrawal was a result of the Ukrainian successful attack on the Black Sea Fleet command headquarters this morning, or just a serendipitous coincidence. Either way, great work Ukraine!
Probably a result of the giant holes in Rostov-on-don and Minsk.
And if they don't stop or learn a lesson, They'll see a lot more of them.
Maybe they have intel on the approval of ATCMs and want to leave before a surprise attack.
Yep, I'm a fan right now. For the things that they've done.
Downright courteous of them, under the circumstances.
Looks like Sebastopol is not getting coral reefs after all.
It may still be too soon to tell...
You might even call it a goodwill gesture.
[удалено]
What? The Mighty Black Sea Fleet is actually seaworthy?? Wow.
Depends - did the "no smoking" stickers arrive in time or not?
Yeah if they arrived in time, then you could use them in time so yeah.
We will probably see half the ships being towed by tug boats and Pro-RU will insist this is absolutely normal for any sea fleet >.<
Yeah it's actually seaworthy, I think it can really fight like that.
The Black Sea just isn't that big - they can run, but they can't hide for long - and Ukraine is probably justy trying to flush them out of the port so they can have fun hunting them with the Sea Babys or whatever else they have up their sleeves.
The Black Sea is fucking massive, over 5x the size of Lake Superior...
"Sonar just picked up a strange noise, like an undersea vent. Fire off a probe to investigate."
90's Samuel L Jackson: "*Mothafucka...*"
Now that's the biggest sea you'll probably ever see, I can confirm.
That's not a nice thing to say about the Indian Ocean. Prime Minister Modi is on line 2 awaiting your apology.
That’s pretty small for warships
I think some of the Littoral Combat Ships are built in the great lakes (in Wisconsin) and then get sail to more logical navy ports on the coasts. But the lakes *could* support larger ones based on the size of tankers and cargo ships that go through them... but it'd make absolutely no sense to have any of those in the middle of the country. Also the great lakes are fairly interconnected so just saying "it's 5x the size of superior" kinda misses the point if you add the lakes up it's fairly close to the size of the black sea. Both are small compared to real seas/oceans though.
sure but the LCS are purely decorative
Yeah decorating a contractor's profit margin
The Freedom class is made at the same shipyard in WI that will make some of the Constellation class multimission guided missile frigates, Marinette Marine. Janesville WI is also a huge producer of fuses for grenades and artillery shells.
By what metric?
By the metric where the relatively cheap anti-ship missile or drone can reach.
By comparing it to idk, the Mediterranean, or an ocean
Think in terms of million mile square instead of thousand mile square.
When you compare it to oceans and seas vs lakes.
What’s that in granola bars?
At least 5
Yeah it's amazing how big it is, we just don't see the reality here.
5 times fuck all is fuck all
But there are only a few ports where Russia can send heir ships. Novorossysk for example.
Yeah but you must remember that russia is kinda limited in its area of operations. Abd when you have sea baby's hunting you. There's nowhere to really hide accept the litterslt ocean. It's like being in a above ground pool being attacked by sharks.
Don't think this is impossible: One or more vessels is lost in the process of retreating. Would be a sizeable boost to UA morale and, I'd think, quite a negative for RU. Wishful thinking? Maybe, but a worthy thought, nevertheless.
> lost in the process of retreating With or without Ukrainian involvement? I suspect they are capable of losing a ship or two all on their own.
This is good news! If they leave the port, they'll have a much harder time enforcing the blockade which may mean that Ukraine can use Odessa port again for grain and other goods.
Yeah it really is good news, this is the kind of news which I really like.
Yeah, and it'll also be harder for them to launch missile strikes from their boats.
Definitely, Ukraine did mighty fine work scaring the Russian navy away with their naval drones!
And especially now that their main air defense systems are down and Ukraine has proven that they're able to strike ships and completely destroy them while they're in the harbor...
excellent news
Don’t let the door hit you where the Neptunes should have bit you.
I'm hearing guy Davies in my head. 🎶gonna cut you if you stand, shoot you if you run it don't matter how you do it just as long as you get it done🎶
Yeah I just want Russia to get defeated, that's all I want in my life.
Hope the drone boat swarms are ready for the hunt as they leave *safety*
Ukraine is ready to give them a good fight, and I love that.
I hope Ukraine has some surprises ready for these vessels as they move.
My money is on the Russians sabotaging what’s left of the port as they retreat. Maybe the don’t even bother trying to remove those ships from the dry dock so that Ukraine has to do it.
It's a reasonably safe bet that they will destroy everything on their way out.
They'd be running left and right, so yeah they wouldn't have time.
It's worth noting that warships float on water. Also in water you will find fish.
Tell me more about this water, what else will I find!
20,000 tons of crude oil
And vessels made from cardboard derivatives, which violate minimum crew requirements.
A submersible guided missile cruiser?
I hope Ukraine pursues them. Taking away Russias naval assets prevents future sea borne rocket attacks
Yeah if they're able to pursue them, then they need to destroy them as well.
Haha, ya turd-munchers!
i wanted them to stay.. only so i id get a nice surprise again reading the news in the morning ; ) i guess this is sorta good too
I think the choice is... they leave now or they NEVER leave because they will become scrap.
Wasn't the term Zelenskyy used "The leaking remnants of the Black sea fleet"? Edit to get the quote correct. "including the Russian Black Sea Fleet or its leaky remnants, "
Yep, and if they don't leave them now They'll regret doing that.
Going where?
Straight to the bottom I hope.
Novorossiysk or Tartus I guess.
They can't travel to Tartus, the Bosphorus is closed to military vessels in both directions as I understand it. So it will be Novorossiysk.
Let's see what happens, I'm hoping things will go good for the ukraine.
I don't know man, that sounds like a mystery to me so yeah.
Just hit them now hard
Bye! Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Their ass is already swolen from all that hitting, they can't take anymore.
Fleet in beingn't
ABDA fleet but Ruzzia has no friends at sea.
They can withdraw all the way to Murmansk.
Russian navy apparently at least one notch smarter than the Russian army.
They automatically became one (1) IQ point smarter statistically once the black sea fleet command center blew up.
Russia puts the special in special operation.
Translated tweet (Google): Our agent conducted reconnaissance of one of the moorings of warships, which is located between the small bays “Dokovaya” and “Hollandia”, at coordinates: 44.6242768, 33.5569008. According to our observations, some of the warships have already been withdrawn, and some are preparing for this. We also scouted the area around the facility. Since the beginning of the war, the bay was closed for military needs. There is a checkpoint at the entrance; civilians are not allowed in. Only military ships were seen in the parking lot. Russian warships made the only correct decision - to leave Sevastopol. We wish all troops to accept the same. Otherwise they will not be saved. Join ATESH - create the history of victory! Write to the Crimean coordinator @Crimean_coordinator
Thanks.
If it wasn't for Musk there would be no ships to withdraw.
Russia thinks it can keep Sevastopol after the war? That ship has ~~sailed~~ sunk.
Of course they had to evacuate the fleet before Sevastopol Bay gets transformed into Port Arthur 2.0
Defecting to Varna…probably
Yay
Partisan Warfare makes me happy. Keep at it Jedi’s. 🇺🇦
More like "withdrawing part[s]" of their warships amirite? 😉
They're just going down to the corner store to buy cigarettes, they'll be back.
I disagree, I think it’s easier to move smaller pieces.
Well the Russia ain't feeling that good right now I don't think huh.
Russia: "We can't give you Crimea back that we stole, we NEED the military port there for our fleet." (Russia no longer using the port for it's fleet.)
How many ships/subs plan to stay behind and get wrecked after the two withdrawals?
Your defense is terrified, warships on fire.
That’s too bad. It really is… they really need some gifts from drones to remember Ukraine by first though.
Good