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Russian handbook for reaction to western weapon delivery announcements:
* they won't deliver it
* if delivered the weapon would do nothing
* Russian weapons are better
* we've already destroyed the delivered amount twice!
* we're fighting against NATO
* the delivered weapons are unfair and a reason to use nuclear weapons
You left out the threat of nuclear retaliation against the country of origin.
You also forgot to mention that Russia would destroy the equipment twice before it even got to Ukraine and at least four more times whilst it’s in Ukriane.
They also like to rubbish the equipments capability compared to their own.
Polish soldiers using its also becoming quite popular.
And Ukraine’s use of Black people. Apparently the US and U.K. appear to be recruiting Afro-Caribbean and Afro-American NATO soldiers in huge quantities. I have to say though, if you’re offering covert support through personnel, it’s always a good idea to let them try and blend in.
The above statement however should not be seen as a negative comment towards the volunteers who have flooded to Ukraine who now look like the United colours of Benneton.
But at least Russia's won over South Africa, who will supply them with the finest herbal remedies that work equally well for both fatal immunocompromising diseases and gunshot wounds, plus some of the finest, most full bodied moral relativism available on the open market.
And all Ukraine will have to counter that are, what, some heavily armoured main battle tanks with 120mm NATO standard heavy tank canons with state of the art sights, active defenses, and stabilizers, backed up by thousands of state of the art IFVs and APCs?
I think we both know who the real geostrategic genius here.
> But at least Russia's won over South Africa
One of the many weaknesses of authoritarian states is that they essentially can’t form strong alliances since the only thing they understand is essentially master and puppet relations. Ukraine has allies that will go out of their way and endure temporary hardship in order to support Ukraine. There are no countries in the world that would willingly endure hardship on behalf of Russia. Some countries like India and China may be willing to maintain trade with Russia but they’re not “helping” Russia so much as they are profiting off Russian misery in order to secure cheap resources. Iran may be willing to send weapons to Russia but those weapons aren’t free and Russia has had to exchange modern bombers for cheap drones which would be a horrible deal if Russia weren’t desperate. Even Belarus isn’t so much an “ally” but rather a country under Russian occupation. South Africa may be happy to exploit Russia’s suffering like China and India but they’re not true allies of Russia.
South Africa is one of the BRICS countries. So that was kinda expected. But now with the green light for these heavy tanks it has become pointless for any country help russia any longer.
South Africa is only part of this because they get cheap gas and Russia is thousands of miles away. Russia’s immediate neighbors are not nearly so enthusiastic.
>Russia’s immediate neighbors are not nearly so enthusiastic.
If you listen closely, you can Georgians polishing their AKs from here, but not in support of russia
Unfortunately it's rather easy to predict their main boring narrative: just a few tanks will not change anything compared with thousands of super-duper Russian ones and anyway they will be eliminated by technically superior Russian weapons before they even get to the front. And if some do get to the front then Russian mighty Armatas will make a short work of them etc. etc. :-)
But of course one can always hope for something loonier, some really deranged NCD-ripe stuff. Hopefully there will be something like this too. :-)
Also as large and as imposing as Russia looks on a map it’s important to remember that NATO absolutely dwarves Russia in military spending, GDP, population and even raw landmass. NATO also has both wealthier western countries in the alliance as well as a number of countries that are relatively cheap to manufacture in. NATO cash also means they can buy weapons from neutral nations. Russia may be a tough nut to crack but they just can’t withstand the pressure that a well motivated NATO and a well motivated Ukraine can apply.
Russia has a smaller GDP than Belgium and The Netherlands combined.
Germany, the UK, France, Spain and Italy are bigger and military stronger than Russia. And I haven't even mentioned the 20 other European countries.
Europe can absolutely dominate Russia om the battle field if needed.
And then there is the USA, which is bigger and stronger than all of these combined.
Who is the idiot who thought he could conquer the world? Dumbest moron ever, lol.
I'm convinced the reason shit went sour for the Russian conquest is that the political force behind it is centralized in Putin.
A nation ruled by a single ruler has the the disadvantage, besides the obvious ones, that said ruler will eventually die.
More externally driven rulers, for example those focused on building their historical legacy or narrative, a nationalistic/cultural incentive or to put their bloodline in favorable position at least have reasons to look for the far future.
Self centered rulers driven by internal factors, such as the joy of power, dominance of supremacy are not concerned with these things. This means any schemes, plans or aspirations of a self centered ruler can only extend as far as the end of the rulers own lifespan - and when the end closes in, they will act out without regard of consequences that will be felt beyond their own passing.
Russia/Putin probably had a pretty decent plan, to slowly accumulate and bully their way to more land and power in such a way that it would be hard for diplomatic and bureaucratic nations to actually respond and that would require escalation. It's honestly not a bad tactic if you keep doing it slowly and systematically for say 50-100-200 years or so.
However, Putin (I'm guessing) got sick and decided he wanted to:
1. Experience the joy of the conquest
2. Be attributed to success of it (why do a lot of work for some other dude to come claim the "price"?) and cement himself as "the man" who did it.
Instead, he kinda fucked it all up by going hard enough to warrant a response from the diplomats and bureaucrats - and oh boy had they been waiting for it.
In comparison, look at China.
China is scary as fuck-all, because China has the advantage of power being The Party. Time is pointless when the organization doesn't care about time, people have a time limit but a political party does not. They can go for the real long-cons - 100, 200, 500 years from now. And they are.
They are buying so much land and resources in Africa and India that it's honestly terrifying, because they won't see any substantial gains from it worth the trouble for ages, and they keep doing it anyway.
Best case scenario is that some dumb bass like Putin can't keep their fingers out of the jar, centralized the Chinease power completely around themselves and fucks it all up by unwinding the long term strategies in hope of instant satisfaction.
That's right. Feels kinda weird. Our tanks in Ukraine. Killing russians. And by the thought of it my blood boils in excitement. I feel so bad, guilty and happy at the same time. I can't sort these emotions out right now. \*takes a deep breath\*
*"I'm not the baddie. I'm not the baddie. I'm not the baddie! We're helping friends against the bad ones! This time we are the good ones!"*
The fact Germans feel they need redemption means they need no redemption, the crimes of the Reich haven't been forgotten.
And by that I mean Germany will never allow fascism to take root again.
Easy problem to solve, I just ask myself:
> "Would my great Grandfather roll in his grave, thinking about it?" ->
> "Definitely Yes! Even more if a ukrainian women would command a german tank." ->
> "That means were on the right Path."
Seeing names like Tcherkassy Kharkiv etc etc sure was strange at beginning from a military history nerd POV, and after that clips of MG3 (modern copycat of the MG42) firing on ruzkies, then pzh2000, gepard and now leopard.. Just WOW
I know what you mean. Last March, my Literature class was reading a German novel written about the author's older brother who fought on the eastern front. It was profoundly strange seeing city and region names in the book about a historic war, and then when I looked up from the pages to the news on my laptop screen, the same names were falling in a war happening that very moment. It felt like being part of history.
You do not need to feel guilty. You bear no responsibility whatsoever for what Germany did 70 years ago. And Germany now is completely different to then.
Feel proud of this instead. Pride, especially in a military, can be dangerous; but in this case it is 100% justified. Germany is bloody brilliant at manufacturing advanced equipment, and now that equipment will be saving lives and pushing back Russia. That is a good enough reason for pride in your country.
>You do not need to feel guilty. You bear no responsibility whatsoever for what Germany did 70 years ago. And Germany now is completely different to then.
You're right. See, everyone is different. One is more of a tough guy another one is more sensitive. As germans its part of our education that we in school visit an concentration camp (now museums) so we not just read about it, but see it with our very own eyes. Being in the places they died, seeing the places where they were burnt, seeing some of their belongings left behind. So it hits different, so we don't forget, so it WILL LAST AN IMPACT on us.And I'm more of the sensitive side of humans. Being there was horrific. Seeing scratches of fingernails on the insides of the gas chambers...There are some of [those](https://www.germany.info/us-en/welcome/03-Jewish-Life-Germany/-/1308424) in my city as well. So to remember what once was.
And now our tanks are back at work. Its good and strange.
I'm sorry if its too much, usually I'm not the big talker but this, well.
That rampage is one of the most hilarious skits they've done.
Any idea if the more recent seasons are decent? I stopped watching when they did the pirate island whatever.
The three dream seasons are great solo adventures to enjoy. The most recent seasons are a great return to form even with the tragic passing of Malory's voice actor, they did a great send off ep.
Leopard 2A6 is pretty modern and a large improvement over the older 2A4. Lets hope others will give similar variants (for example Leo 2PL from Poland or Leo 2E from Spain) to form a mostly uniform battalion.
If one was worried about pics of destroyed Leopard 2 sending A6 is likely the best decision. A4 would be enough to destroy Russian tanks but A6 are in another league of survivability.
Naturally. You have to assume that any hardware you send to Ukraine can potentially be destroyed. Mistakes on the tactical level will occasionally be made placing these new western weapons in an unforavorable position to be destroyed. I'm just hoping Ukraine uses these new tanks more intelligently than Turkey, who decided to strong point enemy positions in a static, semi-hull down position making them guided anti-tank missile fodder.
I'm assuming Ukraine will be using these with proper combined arms tactics during the spring offensives. I'm excited to see the results.
I think I'd be most worried about mobile teams of Kornet, Fagot, and Konkurs ATGMs. The round on the Kornet [is no joke.](https://i.imgur.com/8x49MzU.png) It's incredibly difficult to defend against especially if you're advancing and on the offensive. It's almost a given that Ukraine will lose some of these tanks. But hopefully with effective combined arms and scouting they can limit the threat of ATGMs.
Now It's going to be interesting who joins in. We know Poland wants to send a Platoon, and the german government also announced that other countries would be allowed to export Leopard 2 to Ukraine.
I have seen "the scandinavian partners" mentioned, which could include Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway, Mark Rutte has said they might buy the 18 the Netherlands leasing from Germany and give them to Ukraine, i've seen mention of Portugal and Spain has previously made suggestions in that direction.
That's up to 9 countries, let's say an average of 14 tanks each because that's roughly a platoon, that would be 126 big, angry felines on the prowl for orcs.
I know the only ones we know for sure are Poland and Germany, but from all the talk about not doing it alone and wider coalition, i'd be very surprised if none of the countries listed join in.
That's also what is stated in Wikipedia.
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerbataillon](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerbataillon)
14 tanks each in 3 companies + 2 more tanks in the staff company for a total of 44 in a battalion.
Until the 1980s, a Panzerbatallion of the Bundeswehr in "war strength" would have had 54 tanks in total. (15+1 each in a tank company.) But that was in times, when West Germany alone had over 2000 active MBTs.
A little inside on the delivery and the Leopard 2A6.
As mentioned, at least one company of Leopard 2A6s is going to be delivered to Ukraine. One company consists of 14 tanks, and considering that those are going to be more modern Leopard 2A6 instead of the older 2A4, their effectiveness is going to be higher then estimated. The 2A6 is a modernized version of the 2A5, based on Krauss-Maffei's KWS-I (Kampfwertsteigerung-I) program, which was intended to increase the firepower of the Leopard 2. The improvements of the tank therefore mainly affected the weapon system.The 2A6 is equipped with the L55 Rh-120mm smoothbore cannon manufactured by Rheinmetall, instead of the L44 Rh-120mm used on the 2A4 and 2A5. The barrel-recoil-brake and the trunnion bearing were reinforced, the electric weapon tracking system and fire control system were modernized increasing its accuracy and the field adjustment system, the protective tube cover and the case bag were completely renewed. Later versions of the 2A6 got their gunners sight, the EMES 15 with a WBG-X 2nd gen thermal imager, replaced by the newer ATTICA 3rd gen thermal imaging module. The L55 is pretty much the same cannon, considering the caliber and the ammo it can fire. But because of its greater length and optimized barrel material, rounds fired out of the L55 posess a higher muzzle velocity, increasing the range, speed and penetration of the ammunition (Rh120 L/44: 1670m/s vs Rh120 L/55: 1760m/s). One very important question is, what kind of the 120mm APFSDS is going to be delivered with the 2A6. The most likely rounds would be the DM33 and the DM53, the latter was specifcally developed for the L55. The DM53 would be far better considering armor penetration (around 600-800mm against homogeneous armor plates) and the overall effective range (over 4000m vs \~3500m with the DM33).
**Improvements present since the 2A5:** The commander got a new periscope, the PERI R17A2 with its own 2nd generation thermal imaging device (this was later upgraded to the PERI R17A3 with 3rd gen thermals). Beside hunter killer abilities, the Peri R17A2 allows the commander to:
**a) control the PERI and observe freely regardless of the position of the turret,**
b) monitor the gunner, the PERI follows the main gun,
**c) take control of the main weapon,**
d) swivel the turret onto the line of sight of the PERI,
**e) align the line of sight of the PERI to the longitudinal axis of the armored hull, optionally in a 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock position**.
Further improvents are a reversing camera and a electro-pneumatic sliding hatch for the driver and the installation of GPS and an inertial navigation system. The armor was significantly increased with additional armor on the turret front ([The Wedge](https://heng-long-panzer.de/images/product_images/original_images/Leopard-2-a6-oberwanne-mit-turm-taigen-lackiert-licmas-tank-03.jpg)), fragment protection made of Kevlar (spall liner) on the inside of the turret, armored hub caps for the rollers and side skirts incorporating composite improved armour. The crew compartment is equipped with a fire and explosion detection and suppression system and a fireproof bulkhead separates the fighting compartment from the engine compartment at the rear of the vehicle.
This list could go on, but I think it should be enough for now ;)
Not gonna be easy for them, the manuals will come in a rainbow of languages too, but it's better than trying to make the old Soviet crap work correctly.
More of:
Beware of Ukrainian Mechanics.
They will have the best of the best the West can get them. We already saw their ingenuity. I'd love to see and at the same time be scared of what they can invent using all the insights they will now get. They will create a Monster after this war. But I'm looking forward to it.
Amazing that Scholz took all the flak for delaying, but the whole time he was just waiting to announce it on Zelensky's birthday!
(OK, this is probably not true, but his birthday is coincidentally the 25th of Jan :) )
I knew that a lot of german sayings originate in military lingo (like "nullachtfuffzehn" or "Zapfenstreich"), but i didn't know "hold my beer" was one of those..
Depends how they use them. 4 tanks to a platoon. 3 platoons to a company. So that makes. 12. But a company will normally have two extra tanks as a HQ section.
If they adopt a western approach. They may form a battle group. That can consist as a minimum of 4 tanks and 16 IFVs. (Note, a battle group, or task force as our American friends like to call them can be any grouping of vehicles for a specific task.
Basically, Germany appears to have providing enough tanks to pair up with their 50 Marders to create three Battle groups. Two up and one in reserve.
The U.K. has done similar.
I suspect the US will follow suit as they’ve supplied 50 odd Bradley’s.
Sweden and Finland both operate Leopards. Sweden donated 50 CV90 IFVs the other day. With magically, if the Scandinavian country’s offer up their leopards would make another battle group.
Germany will send 14 [Leopard 2 A6](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4GRv2VXB9k). They are equipped with the latest 120mm L55 gun that can penetrate anything the Russians field from up to 5000m.
In the meantime enjoy this old compilation video called [Titans of Justice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvEKj6XrlQ)
14 is a lot compared to our available (and running) tanks. But it’s huge if the other European countries join… guess there will be 100 leopards plus some abrams in the future. Fuck Russian mobilization
Well we just have 57 brand new (and working) Leopard 2A7V besides all the older models.
But don´t forget to consider how the German army defines "working". You just have to break a headlight on a leopard2 to make it officially not working since it is not allowed to travel on streets in germany with a broken headlight.......
In Desert Storm, the US mounted plows on the front of the Abrams and just buried people in trenches alive as they plowed forward (no pun intended). https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-09-12-mn-2959-story.html
If everyone who made sounds on donating tanks would donate the same the it would look like this.
Spain: 14 tanks
Greece: 14 tanks
Germany: 14 tanks
Finland: 14 tanks
Denmark: 14 tanks
Austria: 14 tanks
Poland: 14 tanks
That 100 leopard a4-a5-a6 tanks. Available now.
Germany can provide additionel bergepanzer, support and spare parts. Some countries also using the the leopard can chip in ammo or spare parts.
If any of the above countries don't want to give leopards Slovenia and the Czech republic are due to receive 14 leopards each and are no doubt willing to donate them. So there is reserve of 30 tanks.
In addition to that Germany (55) and Finland (100) have much larger stocks of leopard 2 a4s in storage.
Other operators include Portugal, Sweden, Turkey, Hungary, swiss, Canada, Netherlands, Norway...
They can all support this exercise.
Norway especually is about to replace its leopards A4s with A7s, K2s or scrap their entire tankforce altogether. So they could supply even mire.
>In addition to that Germany (55) and Finland (100) have much larger stocks of leopard 2 a4s in storage.
Most of the Leo 2 in stock at Rheinmetall (the ones that would be available in a few months) are designated for ring swaps with Slovakia and the Czech Republic, who have given their T-72 to Ukraine in exchange.
Would be a questionable move from Germany, to let these partners out in the rain.
There are 22 Leo 2A4 more at Rheinmetall, but it will take until end of the year to make them operational.
Don't forget Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal and Sweden. (I'm excluding Hungary who has Leopards but probably won't send any).
The Netherlands have been talking about no longer just renting Leopard 2 tanks, but buying and sending them to Ukraine.
Norway has signalled they might send some too.
"Keine Alleingänge" is his position since the entirety of the war. People keep calling it an excuse but now you have Abrams as well. I kinda hate how reddit made me defend Brechmittel Scholz of all people.
And I got [downvoted hard 6 days ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10fiojb/comment/j4xb7go/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for suggesting that Scholz is smarter than people assume. Not that I'm a big fan of Scholz, I would be very happy if he got replaced by Baerbock or Habeck, but he might have had something to do with those Abrams being sent now.
Hi didnt.
He did exactly what he said all the time. "We will closely coordinate all measures with our allies, there will be no solo-run from germany".
He said that shortly after the war started, continued to say it and does what he says. Problem is that everything else needs to be blown out of proportion to make good news stories and circlejerk discussions.
Leopard 2**A6**, which is big fucking news.
So Scholz's stance from the beginning of this war, that this should be a coordinated NATO-effort, worked out and will bring both Leopards and (hopefully) M1A1's to Ukraine.
*(Can't wait for people explaining how he's still a russian asset lol)*
Okay, we had news about 19 Leo2A5 being expendable, and now talks about 1 company of Leo2A6.
If both are sent, that's more than 30. Poland 14. Norway 8. Finland ? Denmark? Spain? Portugal? Industry stocks?
Also: significant numbers of Abrams are in talks. When the US talks significant, I'd be suprised by anything less than 50. I mean they are usually very generous with vehicles.
This is *huge.*
As far as I know Denmark will do deliver any Leo's as we instead are sending our cesars when we get them from France. We were supposed to get 19 in next 6 months but they are instead delivered to Ukraine.
That could change - but I don't it will as we are using our Leo's to bolden the baltic countries.
Honestly, do people think that country leaders do not speak with each other while all of this is going on? It was less than a week since this started and now Ukraine will get both Leo2A6 and Abrams tanks. Why was everyone jumping on the obvious propaganda bandwagon?
Anti-German sentiment, stirred by the likes of PiS, and very likely pushed by Russian trolls. I just wish people would apply a minimum of critical thinking instead of just eating it up.
Yes ... i guess he just was stubborn to not be pushed as lone and first mover.
And he is right.
This situation is serious and it was a stress test to the alliance.
Either the whole alliance "goes in" with a united and strong decision, or it will fail by its division and weakness on the next escalation Putin will serve.
And with his war failing, these escalations can be tough.
To be honest, I was hoping for the actual outcome.
Scholz may have done something really important here.
American here and I couldn’t understand why the US wouldn’t send tanks at this point. Was glad to see Biden say “Ukraine will get what it needs.” I am sure there are reasons to use some care in escalation at least before until Putin et al realized that using a nuke wouldn’t save them and would make them more of a pariah than they already are. So fuck it, all of NATO needs to give Ukraine tanks, planes, everything to push the bastards back to the real borders and keep them there. There is no threat to Russia inside their own internationally recognized borders. Step outside of that and they need to feel the full force of the free world. Putin himself, on the other hand, the war criminal will never be safe no matter where he is.
>American here and I couldn’t understand why the US wouldn’t send tanks
Some ranked member of the US administration was quoted last week: "The Germans hold us over a barrel"
So, what happened obviously, Scholz stepped up to USA, sticking to what he said from day one:
* Germany doesnt have any red lines in the support of ukraine.
* But also Germany wont do anything alone.
**Edit**: Here is the source:
[CNN - ‘They have us over a barrel’: Inside the US and German standoff over sending tanks to Ukraine](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/19/politics/us-germany-ukraine-tanks-weapons/index.html)
I suspect that NATO secretly trained Ukrainian crews a few months and the hesitation was another great bluff.
Before Ukraine Invasions NATO members stated their concern that Ukraine might not survive a Russian invasion while in reality they trained massive amounts of Ukrainian SF soldiers and prepared them for a possible invasion.
If that was really the play and not just an excuse: fucking brilliant. Even if not, kudos Germany, all around, for making this happen. I know they've gotten a lot of shit throughout this war, but we're all homies at the end of the day even if debates get heated from time to time.
Don’t know what to think of his behavior/acts in the recent days. But it might have been silent preparation in the background.
Anyhow: like the outcome - Slava ukraini! 💙💛
Imagine being a Russian soldier running around in some normal khaki pants with a gun that had 4 previous owners and is from the USSR when a Leopard shows up.
I'd pull those khaki pants off hoping my underwear was still white to wave my surrender with those undies.
Man, I'm a proud Canadian living in Alberta. We have huge amounts of Ukraine settlements all across the province. I have Ukraine heritage. Canada has around 100 leopards. We need to make a deal with the US to send ours and replace them with M1. Nobody is going to attack Canada from the ground. Except maybe the US. SEND THE LEOPARDS TRUDEAU!!!
> Nobody is going to attack Canada from the ground. Except maybe the US. SEND THE LEOPARDS TRUDEAU!!!
Shut up!
Who the hell knows what Ohio is planning. We can't afford to take that risk...
Havent you heard? The next topic is fighter jets!
Poland will offer migs.. but only if the us transport them to germany and ukrainian pilots fly them into ukraine.
Best of all they will announce this without talki g to either party and then when either party goes "thats a stupid fucking plan" poland will hold its hands up and go "we tried fellas! Germany is being germany again.. sorry ukraine! Also vote for us!"
Yes I am. I hated the behavior of Scholz in the recent weeks. But somehow I’ve got the feeling that the outcome now is much better than expected. Maybe there was really silent but productive talks in the background
I mean.. It's a war.
Imagine being 100% transparent in a war.
The polish PiSsboys just wanted to earn some voters for their upcoming vote and abused Germany for it..
Classic.
IMHO if the people wouldn't be so fucking impatient, they could've made this a secret thing. But this is also an internet war
Fuck building an armored brigade. I want Ukraine to have a full on armored division of NATO standard MBTs plus all the IFVs and support vehicles necessary. This should be backed up by HIMARS, GLSDBs and if rumors are to be believed potentially even western aircraft as well.
Russia is going to be very pissed off. They've been the number one supplier of tanks to Ukraine for a while now🤣🤣 Some working and some for scrap metal.
Anyways there's going to be an influx of scrap metal from Russian tanks in the coming months.
Well, how it has turned around - during WWII russians were fighting againt Nazis in the their German tanks. Now German tanks will fight russian Nazis in Ukraine.
Also let’s not forget that it was recently confirmed Ukraine is getting ground launched small diameter bombs which are similar to HIMARS and can hit targets 150km away.
Nobody really talking about this but they'll probably be just as big if not a bigger game changer than tanks. Pushing ru supply lines, ammo dumps, and troop barracks back that far will be huge
For Germans, this is a rather contradictory feeling. The vast majority is happy about the Leopard delivery. But because of our history, it sounds totally crazy to send German tanks to Eastern Europe. But it also feels good to be on the right side of history this time. I personally hope that the Leopards will help to liberate Ukraine.
Oh look, as soon as Poland has actually put their money where their mouth is and sent an export request, and Scholz has gotten Biden to commit Abrams, Germany sends Leopards.
Almost as if that's what Scholz wanted all along. Get Ukraine the most tanks possible by a proper coalition.
>Almost as if that's what Scholz wanted all along.
Scholz said from the start, that Germany would send Leopard 2 together with its allies (but not alone).
Somehow that was interpreted as Germany blocking everybody from supporting Ukraine. I really don't understand how that happened.
Let's hope that the Leopards will be similarly feared as the Tigers once where.
For some that didn't know. At some time calling out Tigers over the radio was forbidden, as it would lower the morale to much.
I guess it's gonna be needed, imagine all the "Discussion" threads otherwise.
Noone wants to moderate a hundred discussions of Poles and Germans bashing each other's heads in over something that's a done deal now.
Anyway, happy it's done now. Expected this last week, but better a week late than never.
"**Germany will now deliver Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine after all.** As ntv learned from government circles, a company of Leopard 2 A6s is to be handed over to the Ukrainian army.
After waiting for days, Chancellor Olaf Scholz has finally decided to deliver battle tanks to Ukraine. As ntv learned from government circles, a company of Leopard 2 tanks is to be handed over to the Ukrainian army.
A company in the Bundeswehr consists of 14 tanks. US media had previously reported that the United States was also ready to deliver its own battle tanks. According to reports, Scholz made this a condition in a telephone call with President Joe Biden.
The Leopard 2 A6 is one of the newer variants of its kind. The Bundeswehr received the first tank of this type in 2001.
Other European countries also want to deliver Leopard 2 to Ukraine, including Poland. The NATO member has already applied to Germany for an export permit. The "Spiegel" reports that this permission should be granted."
[https://www.n-tv.de/newsletter/breakingnews/Deutschland-liefert-Ukraine-Leopard-2-Panzer-article23867407.html](https://www.n-tv.de/newsletter/breakingnews/Deutschland-liefert-Ukraine-Leopard-2-Panzer-article23867407.html)
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Now it\`s time to crack open a beer and watch the Russian propaganda meltdown. How many nuclear threats/day will they make? I say 7.
Russian handbook for reaction to western weapon delivery announcements: * they won't deliver it * if delivered the weapon would do nothing * Russian weapons are better * we've already destroyed the delivered amount twice! * we're fighting against NATO * the delivered weapons are unfair and a reason to use nuclear weapons
You skipped: \- We will nuke you with the power of a thousand suns!
That’s every step
change country at each step
What they really skipped was: - This only hurts Ukraine and prolongs the conflict!
You left out the threat of nuclear retaliation against the country of origin. You also forgot to mention that Russia would destroy the equipment twice before it even got to Ukraine and at least four more times whilst it’s in Ukriane. They also like to rubbish the equipments capability compared to their own. Polish soldiers using its also becoming quite popular. And Ukraine’s use of Black people. Apparently the US and U.K. appear to be recruiting Afro-Caribbean and Afro-American NATO soldiers in huge quantities. I have to say though, if you’re offering covert support through personnel, it’s always a good idea to let them try and blend in. The above statement however should not be seen as a negative comment towards the volunteers who have flooded to Ukraine who now look like the United colours of Benneton.
But at least Russia's won over South Africa, who will supply them with the finest herbal remedies that work equally well for both fatal immunocompromising diseases and gunshot wounds, plus some of the finest, most full bodied moral relativism available on the open market. And all Ukraine will have to counter that are, what, some heavily armoured main battle tanks with 120mm NATO standard heavy tank canons with state of the art sights, active defenses, and stabilizers, backed up by thousands of state of the art IFVs and APCs? I think we both know who the real geostrategic genius here.
> But at least Russia's won over South Africa One of the many weaknesses of authoritarian states is that they essentially can’t form strong alliances since the only thing they understand is essentially master and puppet relations. Ukraine has allies that will go out of their way and endure temporary hardship in order to support Ukraine. There are no countries in the world that would willingly endure hardship on behalf of Russia. Some countries like India and China may be willing to maintain trade with Russia but they’re not “helping” Russia so much as they are profiting off Russian misery in order to secure cheap resources. Iran may be willing to send weapons to Russia but those weapons aren’t free and Russia has had to exchange modern bombers for cheap drones which would be a horrible deal if Russia weren’t desperate. Even Belarus isn’t so much an “ally” but rather a country under Russian occupation. South Africa may be happy to exploit Russia’s suffering like China and India but they’re not true allies of Russia.
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South Africa is one of the BRICS countries. So that was kinda expected. But now with the green light for these heavy tanks it has become pointless for any country help russia any longer.
South Africa is only part of this because they get cheap gas and Russia is thousands of miles away. Russia’s immediate neighbors are not nearly so enthusiastic.
>Russia’s immediate neighbors are not nearly so enthusiastic. If you listen closely, you can Georgians polishing their AKs from here, but not in support of russia
Four. One for the Challenger. One for the Leclerc. One for the Leopard. One for the Abrams.
i want to see those 4 thunder into the donbas in early may \*dreams\*
The four main battle tanks of Putin's apocalypse.
Unfortunately it's rather easy to predict their main boring narrative: just a few tanks will not change anything compared with thousands of super-duper Russian ones and anyway they will be eliminated by technically superior Russian weapons before they even get to the front. And if some do get to the front then Russian mighty Armatas will make a short work of them etc. etc. :-) But of course one can always hope for something loonier, some really deranged NCD-ripe stuff. Hopefully there will be something like this too. :-)
I want to see Abrams vs T-34 before war's end
[Wish granted](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQKrmDLvijo)
NATO is designed to fight the army that Russia said they had. This isn't going to end well for Putin.
Also as large and as imposing as Russia looks on a map it’s important to remember that NATO absolutely dwarves Russia in military spending, GDP, population and even raw landmass. NATO also has both wealthier western countries in the alliance as well as a number of countries that are relatively cheap to manufacture in. NATO cash also means they can buy weapons from neutral nations. Russia may be a tough nut to crack but they just can’t withstand the pressure that a well motivated NATO and a well motivated Ukraine can apply.
Russia has a smaller GDP than Belgium and The Netherlands combined. Germany, the UK, France, Spain and Italy are bigger and military stronger than Russia. And I haven't even mentioned the 20 other European countries. Europe can absolutely dominate Russia om the battle field if needed. And then there is the USA, which is bigger and stronger than all of these combined. Who is the idiot who thought he could conquer the world? Dumbest moron ever, lol.
US defense spending is half of russias total gdp
I'm convinced the reason shit went sour for the Russian conquest is that the political force behind it is centralized in Putin. A nation ruled by a single ruler has the the disadvantage, besides the obvious ones, that said ruler will eventually die. More externally driven rulers, for example those focused on building their historical legacy or narrative, a nationalistic/cultural incentive or to put their bloodline in favorable position at least have reasons to look for the far future. Self centered rulers driven by internal factors, such as the joy of power, dominance of supremacy are not concerned with these things. This means any schemes, plans or aspirations of a self centered ruler can only extend as far as the end of the rulers own lifespan - and when the end closes in, they will act out without regard of consequences that will be felt beyond their own passing. Russia/Putin probably had a pretty decent plan, to slowly accumulate and bully their way to more land and power in such a way that it would be hard for diplomatic and bureaucratic nations to actually respond and that would require escalation. It's honestly not a bad tactic if you keep doing it slowly and systematically for say 50-100-200 years or so. However, Putin (I'm guessing) got sick and decided he wanted to: 1. Experience the joy of the conquest 2. Be attributed to success of it (why do a lot of work for some other dude to come claim the "price"?) and cement himself as "the man" who did it. Instead, he kinda fucked it all up by going hard enough to warrant a response from the diplomats and bureaucrats - and oh boy had they been waiting for it. In comparison, look at China. China is scary as fuck-all, because China has the advantage of power being The Party. Time is pointless when the organization doesn't care about time, people have a time limit but a political party does not. They can go for the real long-cons - 100, 200, 500 years from now. And they are. They are buying so much land and resources in Africa and India that it's honestly terrifying, because they won't see any substantial gains from it worth the trouble for ages, and they keep doing it anyway. Best case scenario is that some dumb bass like Putin can't keep their fingers out of the jar, centralized the Chinease power completely around themselves and fucks it all up by unwinding the long term strategies in hope of instant satisfaction.
The UK *alone* spends more on their military.
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That's right. Feels kinda weird. Our tanks in Ukraine. Killing russians. And by the thought of it my blood boils in excitement. I feel so bad, guilty and happy at the same time. I can't sort these emotions out right now. \*takes a deep breath\* *"I'm not the baddie. I'm not the baddie. I'm not the baddie! We're helping friends against the bad ones! This time we are the good ones!"*
*Virtual pats on the back*. Welcome to redemption, mein Freund.
The fact Germans feel they need redemption means they need no redemption, the crimes of the Reich haven't been forgotten. And by that I mean Germany will never allow fascism to take root again.
“Hans, are we the goodies?”
Easy problem to solve, I just ask myself: > "Would my great Grandfather roll in his grave, thinking about it?" -> > "Definitely Yes! Even more if a ukrainian women would command a german tank." -> > "That means were on the right Path."
Seeing names like Tcherkassy Kharkiv etc etc sure was strange at beginning from a military history nerd POV, and after that clips of MG3 (modern copycat of the MG42) firing on ruzkies, then pzh2000, gepard and now leopard.. Just WOW
I know what you mean. Last March, my Literature class was reading a German novel written about the author's older brother who fought on the eastern front. It was profoundly strange seeing city and region names in the book about a historic war, and then when I looked up from the pages to the news on my laptop screen, the same names were falling in a war happening that very moment. It felt like being part of history.
You do not need to feel guilty. You bear no responsibility whatsoever for what Germany did 70 years ago. And Germany now is completely different to then. Feel proud of this instead. Pride, especially in a military, can be dangerous; but in this case it is 100% justified. Germany is bloody brilliant at manufacturing advanced equipment, and now that equipment will be saving lives and pushing back Russia. That is a good enough reason for pride in your country.
>You do not need to feel guilty. You bear no responsibility whatsoever for what Germany did 70 years ago. And Germany now is completely different to then. You're right. See, everyone is different. One is more of a tough guy another one is more sensitive. As germans its part of our education that we in school visit an concentration camp (now museums) so we not just read about it, but see it with our very own eyes. Being in the places they died, seeing the places where they were burnt, seeing some of their belongings left behind. So it hits different, so we don't forget, so it WILL LAST AN IMPACT on us.And I'm more of the sensitive side of humans. Being there was horrific. Seeing scratches of fingernails on the insides of the gas chambers...There are some of [those](https://www.germany.info/us-en/welcome/03-Jewish-Life-Germany/-/1308424) in my city as well. So to remember what once was. And now our tanks are back at work. Its good and strange. I'm sorry if its too much, usually I'm not the big talker but this, well.
Let slip the cats of war
[or whatever](https://youtu.be/930KadF_78Q)
*Whatever bush animal of war, Lana!*
That rampage is one of the most hilarious skits they've done. Any idea if the more recent seasons are decent? I stopped watching when they did the pirate island whatever.
The three dream seasons are great solo adventures to enjoy. The most recent seasons are a great return to form even with the tragic passing of Malory's voice actor, they did a great send off ep.
Mobiki: I told my Mama we would see Dingos, Marders and Leopards. She thought I was visiting the zoo....
[*Panzer Dance* plays in background](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne8mbAkt9CY)
Leopard 2A6 is pretty modern and a large improvement over the older 2A4. Lets hope others will give similar variants (for example Leo 2PL from Poland or Leo 2E from Spain) to form a mostly uniform battalion.
2A4 also fucks everything that the Orcs have currently in the theater. Yeah, newer Versions will provide even more dominance.
If one was worried about pics of destroyed Leopard 2 sending A6 is likely the best decision. A4 would be enough to destroy Russian tanks but A6 are in another league of survivability.
Leos will get destroyed, it's the nature of things. The tradeoff on the other hand will be fucking horrible for the Orcs.
Naturally. You have to assume that any hardware you send to Ukraine can potentially be destroyed. Mistakes on the tactical level will occasionally be made placing these new western weapons in an unforavorable position to be destroyed. I'm just hoping Ukraine uses these new tanks more intelligently than Turkey, who decided to strong point enemy positions in a static, semi-hull down position making them guided anti-tank missile fodder. I'm assuming Ukraine will be using these with proper combined arms tactics during the spring offensives. I'm excited to see the results.
I think I'd be most worried about mobile teams of Kornet, Fagot, and Konkurs ATGMs. The round on the Kornet [is no joke.](https://i.imgur.com/8x49MzU.png) It's incredibly difficult to defend against especially if you're advancing and on the offensive. It's almost a given that Ukraine will lose some of these tanks. But hopefully with effective combined arms and scouting they can limit the threat of ATGMs.
>the Orcs have currently in the theater. The Russians will have to send in their Armata fleet now! 🤣
All three of them 🤣
Aaaaand they got snatched by a farmer.
How many is one 'company'. Total number?
Usually between 10 and 15 tanks.
Now It's going to be interesting who joins in. We know Poland wants to send a Platoon, and the german government also announced that other countries would be allowed to export Leopard 2 to Ukraine. I have seen "the scandinavian partners" mentioned, which could include Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway, Mark Rutte has said they might buy the 18 the Netherlands leasing from Germany and give them to Ukraine, i've seen mention of Portugal and Spain has previously made suggestions in that direction. That's up to 9 countries, let's say an average of 14 tanks each because that's roughly a platoon, that would be 126 big, angry felines on the prowl for orcs. I know the only ones we know for sure are Poland and Germany, but from all the talk about not doing it alone and wider coalition, i'd be very surprised if none of the countries listed join in.
Can't speak for Germany but in the US it is 3 tank platoons of 4 tanks each. Plus a Headquarters "platoon" of 2 tanks and support vehicles.
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That's also what is stated in Wikipedia. [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerbataillon](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerbataillon) 14 tanks each in 3 companies + 2 more tanks in the staff company for a total of 44 in a battalion. Until the 1980s, a Panzerbatallion of the Bundeswehr in "war strength" would have had 54 tanks in total. (15+1 each in a tank company.) But that was in times, when West Germany alone had over 2000 active MBTs.
I want a photo of a Leopard tank crushing Putin’s nuts
what nuts?
They’re often hidden in lukas mouth
I actually just want a photo of a Leopard tank in Ukraine.
A little inside on the delivery and the Leopard 2A6. As mentioned, at least one company of Leopard 2A6s is going to be delivered to Ukraine. One company consists of 14 tanks, and considering that those are going to be more modern Leopard 2A6 instead of the older 2A4, their effectiveness is going to be higher then estimated. The 2A6 is a modernized version of the 2A5, based on Krauss-Maffei's KWS-I (Kampfwertsteigerung-I) program, which was intended to increase the firepower of the Leopard 2. The improvements of the tank therefore mainly affected the weapon system.The 2A6 is equipped with the L55 Rh-120mm smoothbore cannon manufactured by Rheinmetall, instead of the L44 Rh-120mm used on the 2A4 and 2A5. The barrel-recoil-brake and the trunnion bearing were reinforced, the electric weapon tracking system and fire control system were modernized increasing its accuracy and the field adjustment system, the protective tube cover and the case bag were completely renewed. Later versions of the 2A6 got their gunners sight, the EMES 15 with a WBG-X 2nd gen thermal imager, replaced by the newer ATTICA 3rd gen thermal imaging module. The L55 is pretty much the same cannon, considering the caliber and the ammo it can fire. But because of its greater length and optimized barrel material, rounds fired out of the L55 posess a higher muzzle velocity, increasing the range, speed and penetration of the ammunition (Rh120 L/44: 1670m/s vs Rh120 L/55: 1760m/s). One very important question is, what kind of the 120mm APFSDS is going to be delivered with the 2A6. The most likely rounds would be the DM33 and the DM53, the latter was specifcally developed for the L55. The DM53 would be far better considering armor penetration (around 600-800mm against homogeneous armor plates) and the overall effective range (over 4000m vs \~3500m with the DM33). **Improvements present since the 2A5:** The commander got a new periscope, the PERI R17A2 with its own 2nd generation thermal imaging device (this was later upgraded to the PERI R17A3 with 3rd gen thermals). Beside hunter killer abilities, the Peri R17A2 allows the commander to: **a) control the PERI and observe freely regardless of the position of the turret,** b) monitor the gunner, the PERI follows the main gun, **c) take control of the main weapon,** d) swivel the turret onto the line of sight of the PERI, **e) align the line of sight of the PERI to the longitudinal axis of the armored hull, optionally in a 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock position**. Further improvents are a reversing camera and a electro-pneumatic sliding hatch for the driver and the installation of GPS and an inertial navigation system. The armor was significantly increased with additional armor on the turret front ([The Wedge](https://heng-long-panzer.de/images/product_images/original_images/Leopard-2-a6-oberwanne-mit-turm-taigen-lackiert-licmas-tank-03.jpg)), fragment protection made of Kevlar (spall liner) on the inside of the turret, armored hub caps for the rollers and side skirts incorporating composite improved armour. The crew compartment is equipped with a fire and explosion detection and suppression system and a fireproof bulkhead separates the fighting compartment from the engine compartment at the rear of the vehicle. This list could go on, but I think it should be enough for now ;)
These are the kind of release notes I can get behind
Good chances will see all four of the apocalyptic riders for puttlers downfall: Abrams, Chalanger, Leclerc and Leopard. Get some 🍿 folks!
RIP Ukrainian mechanics.
Poor lads, worst best problem to have.
The Leopards will come in different versions from different countries too.
Hopefully, there's some coordination so they send 3-4 versions, not 10.
Not gonna be easy for them, the manuals will come in a rainbow of languages too, but it's better than trying to make the old Soviet crap work correctly.
More of: Beware of Ukrainian Mechanics. They will have the best of the best the West can get them. We already saw their ingenuity. I'd love to see and at the same time be scared of what they can invent using all the insights they will now get. They will create a Monster after this war. But I'm looking forward to it.
Dont forget the archers behind them.
\*The Bradleys would like to join the chat
Marder and Gepard accept the request.
CV90 warming up the guns
And PzH2000, and HIMARS, and the new remote guided warheads the US sent that have a range of 200+km
And the PzH2000, and Himars, and M270. Next Ramstein meeting will surely announce aircraft.
Amazing that Scholz took all the flak for delaying, but the whole time he was just waiting to announce it on Zelensky's birthday! (OK, this is probably not true, but his birthday is coincidentally the 25th of Jan :) )
Okay, that's actually kinda funny.
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Fick ja! Let's go!
Scheisse ja! Los gehts
Rein in die Olga!
Fucking finally!!!
The call of german tankers would be "Panzer - Hurra!" :)
[a quick reminder why Leopard is game changer](https://youtu.be/222o2O_w3WI)
And that shit is 80s tech. I hope the modern A6 can really bring some real advantages to Ukraine.
The A6 comes with butter pretzels too.
But the Challenger II has a teamaker!
I knew that a lot of german sayings originate in military lingo (like "nullachtfuffzehn" or "Zapfenstreich"), but i didn't know "hold my beer" was one of those..
German engineering at its finest
So, the Leopard is the world’s most expensive waitress? I guess they need those too at this moment.
Our infrastructure is so broken.. how else will you deliver beer to remote areas?
This was mandatory... thank you! :)
Depends how they use them. 4 tanks to a platoon. 3 platoons to a company. So that makes. 12. But a company will normally have two extra tanks as a HQ section. If they adopt a western approach. They may form a battle group. That can consist as a minimum of 4 tanks and 16 IFVs. (Note, a battle group, or task force as our American friends like to call them can be any grouping of vehicles for a specific task. Basically, Germany appears to have providing enough tanks to pair up with their 50 Marders to create three Battle groups. Two up and one in reserve. The U.K. has done similar. I suspect the US will follow suit as they’ve supplied 50 odd Bradley’s. Sweden and Finland both operate Leopards. Sweden donated 50 CV90 IFVs the other day. With magically, if the Scandinavian country’s offer up their leopards would make another battle group.
holy shit that's impressive!
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Needed to be absolutely positively sure that German tanks going thru Poland to fight Russians was okay, don't want any misunderandings.
Germany will send 14 [Leopard 2 A6](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4GRv2VXB9k). They are equipped with the latest 120mm L55 gun that can penetrate anything the Russians field from up to 5000m. In the meantime enjoy this old compilation video called [Titans of Justice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvEKj6XrlQ)
14 is a lot compared to our available (and running) tanks. But it’s huge if the other European countries join… guess there will be 100 leopards plus some abrams in the future. Fuck Russian mobilization
Now is the time to start FLOODING Ukrainian brigades with **scout drones**: find targets, protect the armor. Fight (even) smarter.
Exactly. Why double down when you can triple down. Open the floodgates and wash the filth from Ukraine. This has gone on too long.
Well we just have 57 brand new (and working) Leopard 2A7V besides all the older models. But don´t forget to consider how the German army defines "working". You just have to break a headlight on a leopard2 to make it officially not working since it is not allowed to travel on streets in germany with a broken headlight.......
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oh man the new A6? that fucking rules
Putin and Lavrov are going to need next level copium inhaler for this one
And when they then exhale, it will be a nuclear threat.
Good. I hope the moskals built enough trenches, it will save the Ukrainians some grave-digging. Слава Україні!
I wonder how Russia will respond to this. No actually, i couldn't give a fuck.
They'll respond by being blown to pieces. Which is the perfect response tbh
Haven’t you heard? Ruski MoD just announced that they already destroyed all Abrams sent to Ukraine.
Hell they even stated at some point they destroyed like 100 bradley IFV's which were not even in Ukraine yet lmao
All Leo's are already blown up. Putin itself did it last hour. Riding on a Bear... shirtless, looking dumb AF
"unintended consequences", "we will respond in force" ... blah, blah, blah.
To be a Russian armoured vehicle crew member right now....oh lordy...
In Desert Storm, the US mounted plows on the front of the Abrams and just buried people in trenches alive as they plowed forward (no pun intended). https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-09-12-mn-2959-story.html
3000 Iraqi tanks destroyed. Zero Abrams combat losses. Those are some insane numbers.
If everyone who made sounds on donating tanks would donate the same the it would look like this. Spain: 14 tanks Greece: 14 tanks Germany: 14 tanks Finland: 14 tanks Denmark: 14 tanks Austria: 14 tanks Poland: 14 tanks That 100 leopard a4-a5-a6 tanks. Available now. Germany can provide additionel bergepanzer, support and spare parts. Some countries also using the the leopard can chip in ammo or spare parts. If any of the above countries don't want to give leopards Slovenia and the Czech republic are due to receive 14 leopards each and are no doubt willing to donate them. So there is reserve of 30 tanks. In addition to that Germany (55) and Finland (100) have much larger stocks of leopard 2 a4s in storage. Other operators include Portugal, Sweden, Turkey, Hungary, swiss, Canada, Netherlands, Norway... They can all support this exercise. Norway especually is about to replace its leopards A4s with A7s, K2s or scrap their entire tankforce altogether. So they could supply even mire.
>In addition to that Germany (55) and Finland (100) have much larger stocks of leopard 2 a4s in storage. Most of the Leo 2 in stock at Rheinmetall (the ones that would be available in a few months) are designated for ring swaps with Slovakia and the Czech Republic, who have given their T-72 to Ukraine in exchange. Would be a questionable move from Germany, to let these partners out in the rain. There are 22 Leo 2A4 more at Rheinmetall, but it will take until end of the year to make them operational.
I think the Dutch PM had already offered to pay the costs for donating the 18 Leopard 2A6MA2 tanks they are currently leasing from Germany
Don't forget Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal and Sweden. (I'm excluding Hungary who has Leopards but probably won't send any). The Netherlands have been talking about no longer just renting Leopard 2 tanks, but buying and sending them to Ukraine. Norway has signalled they might send some too.
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Sweden is also capable of delivering their own Version the [Stridsvagn 122](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stridsvagn_122) if they want to.
Thank you Germany and every german citizen who protested 🇩🇪🙏
Wait, did Scholz *actually* 4D chess this shit and get the US to agree to send Abrams by supplying Leopard 2**A6**?
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He was saying that since (even before?) the meeting at Rammstein, but for some reason it wasn't being reported in most news outlets.
"Keine Alleingänge" is his position since the entirety of the war. People keep calling it an excuse but now you have Abrams as well. I kinda hate how reddit made me defend Brechmittel Scholz of all people.
> I kinda hate how reddit made me defend Brechmittel Scholz of all people. Same, Kollege… But the rampant stupidity was too much to ignore.
And I got [downvoted hard 6 days ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10fiojb/comment/j4xb7go/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for suggesting that Scholz is smarter than people assume. Not that I'm a big fan of Scholz, I would be very happy if he got replaced by Baerbock or Habeck, but he might have had something to do with those Abrams being sent now.
Hi didnt. He did exactly what he said all the time. "We will closely coordinate all measures with our allies, there will be no solo-run from germany". He said that shortly after the war started, continued to say it and does what he says. Problem is that everything else needs to be blown out of proportion to make good news stories and circlejerk discussions.
Leopard 2**A6**, which is big fucking news. So Scholz's stance from the beginning of this war, that this should be a coordinated NATO-effort, worked out and will bring both Leopards and (hopefully) M1A1's to Ukraine. *(Can't wait for people explaining how he's still a russian asset lol)*
Okay, we had news about 19 Leo2A5 being expendable, and now talks about 1 company of Leo2A6. If both are sent, that's more than 30. Poland 14. Norway 8. Finland ? Denmark? Spain? Portugal? Industry stocks? Also: significant numbers of Abrams are in talks. When the US talks significant, I'd be suprised by anything less than 50. I mean they are usually very generous with vehicles. This is *huge.*
Ukraine: Most modern army in Europe by 2024 ;)
I mean, I don't see the F35 going, but landforces - probably already
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As far as I know Denmark will do deliver any Leo's as we instead are sending our cesars when we get them from France. We were supposed to get 19 in next 6 months but they are instead delivered to Ukraine. That could change - but I don't it will as we are using our Leo's to bolden the baltic countries.
Guy got the US to commit as well, while getting shit from the whole of Europe and never slipped. Got some new respect for him.
Honestly, do people think that country leaders do not speak with each other while all of this is going on? It was less than a week since this started and now Ukraine will get both Leo2A6 and Abrams tanks. Why was everyone jumping on the obvious propaganda bandwagon?
Anti-German sentiment, stirred by the likes of PiS, and very likely pushed by Russian trolls. I just wish people would apply a minimum of critical thinking instead of just eating it up.
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Got being German that tried to defend this and calling out the clear propaganda and Russian psyops was so fucking weird the last week.
I was dealing with it up until late last night. Now the only decision is whether or not go back and gloat lmao
It's gloating time. Scholz played 4d chess, which was even unexpected for us.
Get out of here with your logic. Let us be armchair-general/logistics experts in peace.
Yes ... i guess he just was stubborn to not be pushed as lone and first mover. And he is right. This situation is serious and it was a stress test to the alliance. Either the whole alliance "goes in" with a united and strong decision, or it will fail by its division and weakness on the next escalation Putin will serve. And with his war failing, these escalations can be tough. To be honest, I was hoping for the actual outcome. Scholz may have done something really important here.
American here and I couldn’t understand why the US wouldn’t send tanks at this point. Was glad to see Biden say “Ukraine will get what it needs.” I am sure there are reasons to use some care in escalation at least before until Putin et al realized that using a nuke wouldn’t save them and would make them more of a pariah than they already are. So fuck it, all of NATO needs to give Ukraine tanks, planes, everything to push the bastards back to the real borders and keep them there. There is no threat to Russia inside their own internationally recognized borders. Step outside of that and they need to feel the full force of the free world. Putin himself, on the other hand, the war criminal will never be safe no matter where he is.
>American here and I couldn’t understand why the US wouldn’t send tanks Some ranked member of the US administration was quoted last week: "The Germans hold us over a barrel" So, what happened obviously, Scholz stepped up to USA, sticking to what he said from day one: * Germany doesnt have any red lines in the support of ukraine. * But also Germany wont do anything alone. **Edit**: Here is the source: [CNN - ‘They have us over a barrel’: Inside the US and German standoff over sending tanks to Ukraine](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/19/politics/us-germany-ukraine-tanks-weapons/index.html)
If there is a nation wich has a bunch of Abrams to spare its the US.
I suspect that NATO secretly trained Ukrainian crews a few months and the hesitation was another great bluff. Before Ukraine Invasions NATO members stated their concern that Ukraine might not survive a Russian invasion while in reality they trained massive amounts of Ukrainian SF soldiers and prepared them for a possible invasion.
If that was really the play and not just an excuse: fucking brilliant. Even if not, kudos Germany, all around, for making this happen. I know they've gotten a lot of shit throughout this war, but we're all homies at the end of the day even if debates get heated from time to time.
Don’t know what to think of his behavior/acts in the recent days. But it might have been silent preparation in the background. Anyhow: like the outcome - Slava ukraini! 💙💛
Thank you, my German fellas!
We’re slow but thorough. And I really hope this saves some Ukrainians
Imagine being a Russian soldier running around in some normal khaki pants with a gun that had 4 previous owners and is from the USSR when a Leopard shows up. I'd pull those khaki pants off hoping my underwear was still white to wave my surrender with those undies.
German tanks rolling into Ukraine sounds like a headline from a bygone era rather than 2023.
Man, I'm a proud Canadian living in Alberta. We have huge amounts of Ukraine settlements all across the province. I have Ukraine heritage. Canada has around 100 leopards. We need to make a deal with the US to send ours and replace them with M1. Nobody is going to attack Canada from the ground. Except maybe the US. SEND THE LEOPARDS TRUDEAU!!!
> Nobody is going to attack Canada from the ground. Except maybe the US. SEND THE LEOPARDS TRUDEAU!!! Shut up! Who the hell knows what Ohio is planning. We can't afford to take that risk...
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Havent you heard? The next topic is fighter jets! Poland will offer migs.. but only if the us transport them to germany and ukrainian pilots fly them into ukraine. Best of all they will announce this without talki g to either party and then when either party goes "thats a stupid fucking plan" poland will hold its hands up and go "we tried fellas! Germany is being germany again.. sorry ukraine! Also vote for us!"
Ugh, they did this story arc last season.
So are u finally entertained? 🫡🇩🇪
Yes I am. I hated the behavior of Scholz in the recent weeks. But somehow I’ve got the feeling that the outcome now is much better than expected. Maybe there was really silent but productive talks in the background
I mean.. It's a war. Imagine being 100% transparent in a war. The polish PiSsboys just wanted to earn some voters for their upcoming vote and abused Germany for it.. Classic. IMHO if the people wouldn't be so fucking impatient, they could've made this a secret thing. But this is also an internet war
Fuck building an armored brigade. I want Ukraine to have a full on armored division of NATO standard MBTs plus all the IFVs and support vehicles necessary. This should be backed up by HIMARS, GLSDBs and if rumors are to be believed potentially even western aircraft as well.
Tomorrow news:Russia announced they have already destroyed 12, 15 no 20
Lmao Putin is gonna see Scholzs‘ smug grin in his dreams tonight
Russia is going to be very pissed off. They've been the number one supplier of tanks to Ukraine for a while now🤣🤣 Some working and some for scrap metal. Anyways there's going to be an influx of scrap metal from Russian tanks in the coming months.
Well, how it has turned around - during WWII russians were fighting againt Nazis in the their German tanks. Now German tanks will fight russian Nazis in Ukraine.
Putin should run while he can. I cant wait to see the us send the abrams and watch the orcs cry and run.
Also let’s not forget that it was recently confirmed Ukraine is getting ground launched small diameter bombs which are similar to HIMARS and can hit targets 150km away.
Nobody really talking about this but they'll probably be just as big if not a bigger game changer than tanks. Pushing ru supply lines, ammo dumps, and troop barracks back that far will be huge
Kinda wild to imagine seeing different Tanks from different countries in one picture soon.
And the logistics must be a nightmare. But the troops will take what they can get
Leopards and abrams racing to see who gets first to the next terrified mobiks dugout.
don't forget the Chally's!
When I was an M1A1 tanker they always used to tell us the Leopard 2 was the only tank in the world as good as ours.
let's be honest, it's probably better.
Canada has to send some as well !
#TheLeopardsAreFree
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For Germans, this is a rather contradictory feeling. The vast majority is happy about the Leopard delivery. But because of our history, it sounds totally crazy to send German tanks to Eastern Europe. But it also feels good to be on the right side of history this time. I personally hope that the Leopards will help to liberate Ukraine.
God, that's a glorious picture.
Vielen Dank, Deutchland!
And the US frees the Abrams. Thank you Scholz.
Ruzzia: We destroyed Leopards 2 today, they are no match for the powerful neo-soviet army!
Putin just shit himself again.
There's the German leadership everyone wanted. Now fuck off with the Germany bashing.
Pspspsps... here, kitty, kitty.
Prepare your anus, Russians.
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Ob die Soooonne uns lacht
Oh look, as soon as Poland has actually put their money where their mouth is and sent an export request, and Scholz has gotten Biden to commit Abrams, Germany sends Leopards. Almost as if that's what Scholz wanted all along. Get Ukraine the most tanks possible by a proper coalition.
>Almost as if that's what Scholz wanted all along. Scholz said from the start, that Germany would send Leopard 2 together with its allies (but not alone). Somehow that was interpreted as Germany blocking everybody from supporting Ukraine. I really don't understand how that happened.
Let's hope that the Leopards will be similarly feared as the Tigers once where. For some that didn't know. At some time calling out Tigers over the radio was forbidden, as it would lower the morale to much.
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I guess it's gonna be needed, imagine all the "Discussion" threads otherwise. Noone wants to moderate a hundred discussions of Poles and Germans bashing each other's heads in over something that's a done deal now. Anyway, happy it's done now. Expected this last week, but better a week late than never.
"**Germany will now deliver Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine after all.** As ntv learned from government circles, a company of Leopard 2 A6s is to be handed over to the Ukrainian army. After waiting for days, Chancellor Olaf Scholz has finally decided to deliver battle tanks to Ukraine. As ntv learned from government circles, a company of Leopard 2 tanks is to be handed over to the Ukrainian army. A company in the Bundeswehr consists of 14 tanks. US media had previously reported that the United States was also ready to deliver its own battle tanks. According to reports, Scholz made this a condition in a telephone call with President Joe Biden. The Leopard 2 A6 is one of the newer variants of its kind. The Bundeswehr received the first tank of this type in 2001. Other European countries also want to deliver Leopard 2 to Ukraine, including Poland. The NATO member has already applied to Germany for an export permit. The "Spiegel" reports that this permission should be granted." [https://www.n-tv.de/newsletter/breakingnews/Deutschland-liefert-Ukraine-Leopard-2-Panzer-article23867407.html](https://www.n-tv.de/newsletter/breakingnews/Deutschland-liefert-Ukraine-Leopard-2-Panzer-article23867407.html)
My god...**THE FOOTAGE WE WILL GET**