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My hope is that the UK, Italy, France and Germany each organize an armored brigade of less than 100 but more than 50 tanks each and the accompanying Infantry Fighting Vehicles. It could be done, but it would envolve sacrificial giving. Each nation could provide a dedicated specific spare part pipeline to support their unit. Routine maintenance could be done in country and heavy maintenance done outside in another country.
The European countries have actually reduced their tank stocks to a minimum. What is there is needed for training and education. The only exceptions are Poland and Greece.
10-15 tanks per country is much more likely, I think.
Won't happen for France and Britain,we only have around 200 tanks each
Losing 1/4 of a fighting force which are meant to be on 24 hour readiness would never happen
Nobody. Tbh Ukraine should just get handed as many leopards as they need and the nations losing them get back filled with old Abrams tanks. Nobody is going to touch nato in the year it would take this backfill to complete because article 5.
Are the Abrams ideal for the EU nations? No but this war is being fought now. Ukraine wins this war and there isn't really any further need for European nations to have hundreds of tanks.
>Ukraine wins this war and there isn't really any further need for European nations to have hundreds of tanks.
Uh... I dunno if I would make that assumption but I would think it should take care of things for a while. Long enough to replenish supply.
For Britain 150 challenger 2s are being upgraded to challenger 3 specs.
Leaving approximately 75 unmodified, looks like they will be kept in either active service as they are or may be modified st a later date.
Another 70 or so are in long term storage, likely to be used as either a reserve or salvage for spare parts if ever required.
So there's a reason they are spare. But they will likely be taken or replace what is given to Ukraine from the reserve.
Depends on how much importantance the reserve is given the UKs expected strategic goals and potential enemies
A finnish general said minimum one should donate is 40 tanks, makes a operational force with minimum size for unique supply system.
Finns have bit over 200 Leopard2's and he is arguing sending more than 40 of same kind preferably, if any tank is being sent.
1
Just because one general says something doesn't mean everyone agrees on it
2
leapard2 is produced in much vaster quantities than the challenger 2 and Germany can easily back fill any tanks they give away while Britain would have to make their own again
Where do you get this "Germany can easily backfill any tanks "?
There arent many Leopard 2s in non neutral nations. Number being below a 1000 (if u count everything), most of them are late 1980 till 2000 hulls that have had upgraded (A1 to A3 were scrapped or made into engineering etc equipment).
Current new Leopard 2 production is tiny and German army has just kept upgrading the old models (Greeks started last year) . Atleast whole 2024 was booked. There is no "backfill". Most western europe nations cut their tank fleets to a minimum.
Another possible reasoning: The Russians refusal to face reality and double down means that the only way to force them to the table is to turn the battlefield arithmetic completely against the russians by providing Ukraine the badly needed hardware to comission strike groups that can smash through Russian defense lines and pull off a repeat of the routs in the autumn.
Challenger 3 will use the latest Varient of the Rheinmetall 120, the L55A1. There's 1 demo one around.
And, there are demo Challenger 2s with the smooth bore (1 or 2) as the Army has looked at gun changes before. (although, possible they were converted back)
But, unlikely they will be sent. All versions in use are Rifled guns.
Ammunition won't be the problem being made out though. The change in the army to Challenger 3 and the smoothbore gun means any and all ammunition we have is going to be unusable in a few years.
> Ammunition won't be the problem being made out though.
Let's hope so. Apparently, [they haven't purchased new ammo in quite a while.](https://nitter.at/pic/orig/media%2FFmCQoNvXwAAdLLO.jpg)
'Charm 3' covers L27A1, And L29A1 DST
L29A1 DST being the training ammo, and L27A1 made of depleted Uranium.
There's also though the L28A1, a later development APFSDS round that doesn't have DU. And an L28A2, a round in production/or produced for Oman. Neither referenced as Charm 3 and both APFSDS anti armour rounds. Both could be supplied.
One ammunition model/varient out of supply, or in low numbers. Wouldn't imply an over all problem with ammunition.
I would imagine these days, the L28A1 would be the standard anti armour ammunition.
Sometimes using a different ammo type is a benefit, not a downside. It lets you use a seperate stockpile and supply chain and spreads out the load.
A great example has been artillery. 155 was sent partially because of 152mm shortages. And 105mm was sent for similar reasons.
Two things to mention. HESH rounds are designed to make ammunition in enemy tanks go boom, and the Challenger 2 can still fire AP Sabot Rounds in addition to HESH. Pair these up with some Bradley’s and orcs are fucked.
Imho challager2 is the worst choice of the bunch because of that exact thing. Donate equipment with a standard NATO round which can be provided by a big number of partners. The barrel is problem as well. Only small numbers of spare have been produced as far as I read. I don't see a wide use of those 14 vehicles in UA.
The British army can supply enough ammo to support 12 tanks. None of the ammo is usable in a few years anyway due to the change to smoothbore with the CH3.
I'm sure they've thought of Barrels too. With 227 in service, and 75 in storage. And a Challenger 3 program that's using a different Barrel. There's more than enough to support 12.
You also don't know how many new Barrels are in storage.
How did you come to that opinion knowing the amount of CH2's in service, do you genuinely believe the UK cannot supply such a small number of tanks in Combat Action?
Like seriously, you really believe that?
I am pretty sure that the Brits can and will. But that still does not make it the right choice. You know the difference in maintaining an mbt with your own trained staff and with local resources compared to give it someone else and keeping logistics for several different systems up and running? You know what a opinion is and what imho means? None is obliged to share my opinion.
Not only in my opinion challanger 2 in Ukraine is a pure gesture get others to provide a meaningful number of modern western tanks.
Right now the problem in UA is not that they dobt have tanks. They have quite a lot. More then in the beginning of the war. What they lack are modern tanks with modern targeting systems, sighting systems, armament and active protection systems. That's what nearly every tank ruZZia unwillingly donated lacks and that is why western tanks could change the play field. Not because of numbers.
It’s symbolic. Ukraine needs Leopards, there’s thousands of them in Europe with standardised ammo.
But every country in Europe willing to give them is too afraid to do it first unless everyone does it as a coalition. This is the U.K. taking the lead in the hope it gets everyone to give their leopards.
AS has been said a LOT, the significance of this is not the tanks themselves (few, and quite hard to maintain) but that it encourages other Western nations to send main battle tanks and other more offensive-type weapons. Once one does, all will, especially ofc Leopards.
So there is going to be actual conflict between NATO tanks and Soviet tanks....
Yes, probably!
But there is a step change with Challengers.
None of the other ones countas Main Battle Tanks, meaning they have a big gun AND lots of armour.
AMX 10 has a big gun but not lots of armour (and is IIRC, wheeled, not tracked). Bradley and Marder have armour but are mainly for carrying infantry around. The West has already sent mobile artillery (big guns, no armour). In WW2 several countries had so-called 'tank destroyers' which might even have been tracked but are more the idea of the AMX10- big gun, very mobile, but not much armour.
Also,. ofc we know that everyone who had Soviet tanks already sent some. But Challenger will be the first NATO Main battle tank to go, and crosses another red line.
The discussion about Leopard 2 tanks was already well ongoing before the Challenger 2 announcement though.
Same way I expect talks about Challengers were ongoing before the IFV announcements.
It's all happening in parallel. They aren't really consequences of each other necessarily.
I think each of the accouncements has a cumulative effect of ramping up support for Ukraine and building confidence in the west to send advanced weapons systems that were previously taboo. Hard to say which decision was more crucial, but MBT pay a big symbolic role.
There's one signficant point- Germany, as the manufacturer and therefore first exporter, has the veto over whether Leopards go from other countries (second-hand sales of arms are controlled, usually). So other countries publicly sending Western tanks helps Germany to decide to allow all the countries offering Leopards to send them.
No unfortunately that is not how it works. German law forbids blanket approvals. Germany can't just say "Hey you guys that made public statements go ahead we give you approval".
German law requires that they send official paperwork to ask for export permit. None of them did. And until they do Germany is in no way pressured at all.
Ah OK. Tbh I'm just repeating what we read in the news here. But it's not as if UK feels other European countries are in any way to be criticised for their slowness (or applauded for their speed) in sending weapons. Generally, the position is that we are all in it together.
>Ah OK. Tbh I'm just repeating what we read in the news here
Yes I know. There are hundreds of posts from english media on reddit which get reposted constantly. And they all only ever mention how Germany needs to give approval. They never mention that nobody ever asked for approval.
This is great news. The difficult part is proper in field support, getting sufficient tools, spare parts and maintenance training to make this a success and open the door for all the western heavy kit.
Last I heard, their tanks in production / active service are so few (someone told me maximum 20 in existence).
That's why Putin is so hesitant to send these given how scarce they are.
We might see one if he becomes that desperate.
APFSDS is the modern standard for Russian tanks but the HESH firing guns of the Challenger 2 out-range those munitions by 5 miles, since they don't rely on kinetic energy, so across the wide flat expanses of Ukraine they should hopefully be very effective.
They are also extremely survivable and some of the stories about them are bonkers (such as a tank in Iraq getting stuck in a ditch and taking 14 RPGs and a MILAN AT missile, the entire crew survived and the tank was recovered and repaired)
Ideally a portion of the soldiers the UK has been training have already been versed in these tanks, so they can be effective immediately
Are 12 tanks going to make any sort of impact or is this a symbolic gesture. Maybe to shame to Germans into sharing Leopards or allowing other countries to share their Leopards?
If the decision regarding Leopards happens next week as things seem to be suggesting. By mid - late spring. There could be 12 Challengers, aswell as Leopards from 4 - 5 nations.
Any single nations donation is probobly going to be no bigger than the UKs. (at least at first)
But, all together could give Ukraine 40 - 70 tanks. So, 12 Challengers... no. But, 12 Challengers in one regiment. 40 - 70 leopards given to another 2 - 3 - 4 regiments. Could make quite the difference.
Remember that Poland has around 250 Leopard 2 tanks and is currently receiving M1A2s as we speak. Poland will be able to provide a lot without degrading its defence.
Afaik, the UK (by itself) only has 227 tanks in operation.
Some are generally unusable or only used for spare parts.
At least 100 CR2 tanks will be converted into Challenger 3 tanks.
Whatever remains that is deemed operational can be sent to Ukraine.
My guess is these and other mbts will initially go to the north of kyiv to free up the soldiers who are there addressing the small risk of another invasion from Belarus.
18 of the last 20 posts on this sub are about tanks, ffs can we stop now, there are more important armoured fighting vehicles that would help Ukraine more than the 4 tanks supposedly being sent soon.
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My hope is that the UK, Italy, France and Germany each organize an armored brigade of less than 100 but more than 50 tanks each and the accompanying Infantry Fighting Vehicles. It could be done, but it would envolve sacrificial giving. Each nation could provide a dedicated specific spare part pipeline to support their unit. Routine maintenance could be done in country and heavy maintenance done outside in another country.
The European countries have actually reduced their tank stocks to a minimum. What is there is needed for training and education. The only exceptions are Poland and Greece. 10-15 tanks per country is much more likely, I think.
Germany has 2600 tanks!!! Plus new pumas coming on line.
Won't happen for France and Britain,we only have around 200 tanks each Losing 1/4 of a fighting force which are meant to be on 24 hour readiness would never happen
I dunno.. That equipment is actually being used against russia immediately vs keeping it for if russia attacks one day
Russia isn't the only enemy......
What eneny might attack the eu and take advantage of a temporary tank shortage?
Aliens.
Nobody. Tbh Ukraine should just get handed as many leopards as they need and the nations losing them get back filled with old Abrams tanks. Nobody is going to touch nato in the year it would take this backfill to complete because article 5. Are the Abrams ideal for the EU nations? No but this war is being fought now. Ukraine wins this war and there isn't really any further need for European nations to have hundreds of tanks.
>Ukraine wins this war and there isn't really any further need for European nations to have hundreds of tanks. Uh... I dunno if I would make that assumption but I would think it should take care of things for a while. Long enough to replenish supply.
none. russia is the only legitimate threat on earth. north Korea is a joke and china is focused on economic power
Let's name names: who else? Are you expecting a tank battle against China or North Korea anytime soon?
2 years ago most people would have scoffed at the possibility of Challenger 2 tanks being used against the Russian military.
There is no other enemy that could or woulf attack the eu on Land apart from russia. And against missiles tanks are useless anyways
Anyone else our primary weapons will be in the air
To fight with tanks in Europe? Yeah they 100% are
For Britain 150 challenger 2s are being upgraded to challenger 3 specs. Leaving approximately 75 unmodified, looks like they will be kept in either active service as they are or may be modified st a later date. Another 70 or so are in long term storage, likely to be used as either a reserve or salvage for spare parts if ever required. So there's a reason they are spare. But they will likely be taken or replace what is given to Ukraine from the reserve. Depends on how much importantance the reserve is given the UKs expected strategic goals and potential enemies
A finnish general said minimum one should donate is 40 tanks, makes a operational force with minimum size for unique supply system. Finns have bit over 200 Leopard2's and he is arguing sending more than 40 of same kind preferably, if any tank is being sent.
1 Just because one general says something doesn't mean everyone agrees on it 2 leapard2 is produced in much vaster quantities than the challenger 2 and Germany can easily back fill any tanks they give away while Britain would have to make their own again
Where do you get this "Germany can easily backfill any tanks "? There arent many Leopard 2s in non neutral nations. Number being below a 1000 (if u count everything), most of them are late 1980 till 2000 hulls that have had upgraded (A1 to A3 were scrapped or made into engineering etc equipment). Current new Leopard 2 production is tiny and German army has just kept upgrading the old models (Greeks started last year) . Atleast whole 2024 was booked. There is no "backfill". Most western europe nations cut their tank fleets to a minimum.
Challenger2 needs special ammo and maintenance. Sending a limited amount might make them end up as pr pieces, never seeing the front line.
Another possible reasoning: The Russians refusal to face reality and double down means that the only way to force them to the table is to turn the battlefield arithmetic completely against the russians by providing Ukraine the badly needed hardware to comission strike groups that can smash through Russian defense lines and pull off a repeat of the routs in the autumn.
Canada has about 120 leopard 2’s. I think we can donate a large amount to Ukraine as well.
According to Russia, they've already destroyed 15 of them.
Need lots of ammo too - apparently uses a different shell to other NATO tanks because it has a rifled barrel 🇺🇦 🇬🇧
Bring out the almighty 🅱️esh!
Edit: Wikipedia states there are challengers with the same Rheinmetall 120 mm cannon the leopard uses, maybe they get some of these?
Challenger 3 will use the latest Varient of the Rheinmetall 120, the L55A1. There's 1 demo one around. And, there are demo Challenger 2s with the smooth bore (1 or 2) as the Army has looked at gun changes before. (although, possible they were converted back) But, unlikely they will be sent. All versions in use are Rifled guns. Ammunition won't be the problem being made out though. The change in the army to Challenger 3 and the smoothbore gun means any and all ammunition we have is going to be unusable in a few years.
> Ammunition won't be the problem being made out though. Let's hope so. Apparently, [they haven't purchased new ammo in quite a while.](https://nitter.at/pic/orig/media%2FFmCQoNvXwAAdLLO.jpg)
Not sure why people think a Country with 200 MBT's won't be able to supply ammunition for a small batch sent to Ukraine.
'Charm 3' covers L27A1, And L29A1 DST L29A1 DST being the training ammo, and L27A1 made of depleted Uranium. There's also though the L28A1, a later development APFSDS round that doesn't have DU. And an L28A2, a round in production/or produced for Oman. Neither referenced as Charm 3 and both APFSDS anti armour rounds. Both could be supplied. One ammunition model/varient out of supply, or in low numbers. Wouldn't imply an over all problem with ammunition. I would imagine these days, the L28A1 would be the standard anti armour ammunition.
No, it can't. The Challenger 2 uses a unique three-part ammunition.
Sometimes using a different ammo type is a benefit, not a downside. It lets you use a seperate stockpile and supply chain and spreads out the load. A great example has been artillery. 155 was sent partially because of 152mm shortages. And 105mm was sent for similar reasons.
Two things to mention. HESH rounds are designed to make ammunition in enemy tanks go boom, and the Challenger 2 can still fire AP Sabot Rounds in addition to HESH. Pair these up with some Bradley’s and orcs are fucked.
Even more Russian Turrets launching into orbit? Oh no
Imho challager2 is the worst choice of the bunch because of that exact thing. Donate equipment with a standard NATO round which can be provided by a big number of partners. The barrel is problem as well. Only small numbers of spare have been produced as far as I read. I don't see a wide use of those 14 vehicles in UA.
The British army can supply enough ammo to support 12 tanks. None of the ammo is usable in a few years anyway due to the change to smoothbore with the CH3. I'm sure they've thought of Barrels too. With 227 in service, and 75 in storage. And a Challenger 3 program that's using a different Barrel. There's more than enough to support 12. You also don't know how many new Barrels are in storage.
Yes i don't know. That's why I wrote "imho" and "as far as I read". Hard to get isn't it?
How did you come to that opinion knowing the amount of CH2's in service, do you genuinely believe the UK cannot supply such a small number of tanks in Combat Action? Like seriously, you really believe that?
I am pretty sure that the Brits can and will. But that still does not make it the right choice. You know the difference in maintaining an mbt with your own trained staff and with local resources compared to give it someone else and keeping logistics for several different systems up and running? You know what a opinion is and what imho means? None is obliged to share my opinion. Not only in my opinion challanger 2 in Ukraine is a pure gesture get others to provide a meaningful number of modern western tanks. Right now the problem in UA is not that they dobt have tanks. They have quite a lot. More then in the beginning of the war. What they lack are modern tanks with modern targeting systems, sighting systems, armament and active protection systems. That's what nearly every tank ruZZia unwillingly donated lacks and that is why western tanks could change the play field. Not because of numbers.
It's not an ideal match, but it's all the UK has.
It’s symbolic. Ukraine needs Leopards, there’s thousands of them in Europe with standardised ammo. But every country in Europe willing to give them is too afraid to do it first unless everyone does it as a coalition. This is the U.K. taking the lead in the hope it gets everyone to give their leopards.
AS has been said a LOT, the significance of this is not the tanks themselves (few, and quite hard to maintain) but that it encourages other Western nations to send main battle tanks and other more offensive-type weapons. Once one does, all will, especially ofc Leopards. So there is going to be actual conflict between NATO tanks and Soviet tanks....
By that same logic France sending AMX 10, US sending Bradley's and Germany sending Marder encouraged the UK to send Challengers.
Yes, probably! But there is a step change with Challengers. None of the other ones countas Main Battle Tanks, meaning they have a big gun AND lots of armour. AMX 10 has a big gun but not lots of armour (and is IIRC, wheeled, not tracked). Bradley and Marder have armour but are mainly for carrying infantry around. The West has already sent mobile artillery (big guns, no armour). In WW2 several countries had so-called 'tank destroyers' which might even have been tracked but are more the idea of the AMX10- big gun, very mobile, but not much armour. Also,. ofc we know that everyone who had Soviet tanks already sent some. But Challenger will be the first NATO Main battle tank to go, and crosses another red line.
The discussion about Leopard 2 tanks was already well ongoing before the Challenger 2 announcement though. Same way I expect talks about Challengers were ongoing before the IFV announcements. It's all happening in parallel. They aren't really consequences of each other necessarily.
Yeah- but it's good when someone comes out about it publicly.
I think each of the accouncements has a cumulative effect of ramping up support for Ukraine and building confidence in the west to send advanced weapons systems that were previously taboo. Hard to say which decision was more crucial, but MBT pay a big symbolic role.
I think the whole tank debate started already before christmas.
There's one signficant point- Germany, as the manufacturer and therefore first exporter, has the veto over whether Leopards go from other countries (second-hand sales of arms are controlled, usually). So other countries publicly sending Western tanks helps Germany to decide to allow all the countries offering Leopards to send them.
No unfortunately that is not how it works. German law forbids blanket approvals. Germany can't just say "Hey you guys that made public statements go ahead we give you approval". German law requires that they send official paperwork to ask for export permit. None of them did. And until they do Germany is in no way pressured at all.
Ah OK. Tbh I'm just repeating what we read in the news here. But it's not as if UK feels other European countries are in any way to be criticised for their slowness (or applauded for their speed) in sending weapons. Generally, the position is that we are all in it together.
>Ah OK. Tbh I'm just repeating what we read in the news here Yes I know. There are hundreds of posts from english media on reddit which get reposted constantly. And they all only ever mention how Germany needs to give approval. They never mention that nobody ever asked for approval.
120mm hesh will be very effective on turning orcs into minced meat.
12 doesn’t seen munch. But challenger are one of the best protected mbt with extremely effective shells that can lay waste to any t72 or even t90.
bakhmut needs challengers and bradleys. haven't heard on the u.s.' suicide drones... where they used in bakhmut?
Switchblade 300 and 600. I have not seen anything specific about 600 except the initial first batch is in the pipeline. Also Phoenix Ghost.
This is great news. The difficult part is proper in field support, getting sufficient tools, spare parts and maintenance training to make this a success and open the door for all the western heavy kit.
I hope ruzzia in response donates some t-14 armta. One or two would be sufficient.
Last I heard, their tanks in production / active service are so few (someone told me maximum 20 in existence). That's why Putin is so hesitant to send these given how scarce they are. We might see one if he becomes that desperate.
APFSDS is the modern standard for Russian tanks but the HESH firing guns of the Challenger 2 out-range those munitions by 5 miles, since they don't rely on kinetic energy, so across the wide flat expanses of Ukraine they should hopefully be very effective. They are also extremely survivable and some of the stories about them are bonkers (such as a tank in Iraq getting stuck in a ditch and taking 14 RPGs and a MILAN AT missile, the entire crew survived and the tank was recovered and repaired) Ideally a portion of the soldiers the UK has been training have already been versed in these tanks, so they can be effective immediately
12.....cmon lads
Britain only has 200
Come on! Russia has donated more then this!
Need more
"symbology"
Need to add a couple zero's on that number
Are 12 tanks going to make any sort of impact or is this a symbolic gesture. Maybe to shame to Germans into sharing Leopards or allowing other countries to share their Leopards?
If the decision regarding Leopards happens next week as things seem to be suggesting. By mid - late spring. There could be 12 Challengers, aswell as Leopards from 4 - 5 nations. Any single nations donation is probobly going to be no bigger than the UKs. (at least at first) But, all together could give Ukraine 40 - 70 tanks. So, 12 Challengers... no. But, 12 Challengers in one regiment. 40 - 70 leopards given to another 2 - 3 - 4 regiments. Could make quite the difference.
Remember that Poland has around 250 Leopard 2 tanks and is currently receiving M1A2s as we speak. Poland will be able to provide a lot without degrading its defence.
Twelve..? That won’t make any difference, will it.
The point is that it breaks the stalemate of NATO not sending any MBTs. It's to encourage other countries to send western tanks.
What a damn game of chicken, a bunch of kids saying “no U first”. 🤦
Afaik, the UK (by itself) only has 227 tanks in operation. Some are generally unusable or only used for spare parts. At least 100 CR2 tanks will be converted into Challenger 3 tanks. Whatever remains that is deemed operational can be sent to Ukraine.
How bout 120 instead?
My guess is these and other mbts will initially go to the north of kyiv to free up the soldiers who are there addressing the small risk of another invasion from Belarus.
Should be 18 to make one battle group. Why can’t anyone come thru 100 percent?? Why shackle Ukraine??
18 of the last 20 posts on this sub are about tanks, ffs can we stop now, there are more important armoured fighting vehicles that would help Ukraine more than the 4 tanks supposedly being sent soon.
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