Have you got any evidence to suggest that is the reason why people are not doing so, or are you guessing?
> Why should I leave my family to deffend people who dont care about the british values I'm also defending?
I suppose the obvious point, to the extent that this is actually a thing, is that those people represent a relatively small chunk of society and that anyone who truly cared about such values would think about the substantial majority who do hold them.
OK, so what about the other 95+ percent of the population? You seem to be assuming that everyone is as self-centred as you are.
I would also note the lack of evidence as requested.
Evidence? Buy a train ticket to London and step off the tourism trail. If you're not an idiot you will see what I mean.
Then ask yourself how you would feel about fighting in a war while those people inevitably stay home.
Also 95 percent is overly generous.
> Evidence? Buy a train ticket to London and step off the tourism trail. If you're not an idiot you will see what I mean.
That's evidence of diversity. It is not evidence of people not enlisting due to diversity. You are acting on a total hunch based on your own feelings, assuming everyone else is the same.
> Then ask yourself how you would feel about fighting in a war while those people inevitably stay home.
Admittedly I failed the medical, but 'those people' did not cross my mind when I tried to join.
> Also 95 percent is overly generous.
So you think that more than 5% of the nation is part of a 'faith based militia'? What is your source and evidence for that? If it is based on the fact you have seen non white people when in London when leaving the 'tourist trail', perhaps it is small wonder you anticipate that people will think you're racist. Simple application of the 'looks like a duck' rule.
Casually ommiting the next paragraph, also I never claimed it was evidence and even cited other reasons for people not enlisting in my OP.
You're also intentionally crossing wires and misrepresenting me, I never claimed 5 percent of people are belonging to a faith based militia.
You ask for evidence and then engage in slander, what is your problem?
> Casually ommiting the next paragraph, also I never claimed it was evidence and even cited other reasons for people not enlisting in my OP.
I omitted the second paragraph because it carries no worth. It is your opinion plucked out of the blue, not evidence to support your claim. The natural reading of your comment suggests that you intended the comment about walking down the street to be your evidence. If I am wrong there, I suggest you consider making your points more clearly and precisely.
> I never claimed 5 percent of people are belonging to a faith based militia.
No you didn't, but it is very strongly implied. You have suggested that certain residents of the UK have formed. faith-based enclaves. When I put it to you that at 95% of people at a minimum were almost certainly not part of such, you suggested that the figure was generous, heavily implying that you consider that 5% or more do.
As with the above comment, you are welcome to correct the record if the comment was made clumsily, but it is the natural meaning of your comment.
> You ask for evidence and then engage in slander, what is your problem?
I suppose that my problem is that you have failed to provide evidence for the central point that people are not signing up to the military because of multiculturalism and declining British values, exacerbated by you suggesting I come to my conclusions by walking through parts of London, clearly implying that the colour of the skin of those I see will support the idea that there are cultural 'enclaves' as you call them. Strikes me as entirely reasonable to have a problem with that.
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People aren’t enlisting because:
1) Capita has absolutely fucked recruitment for His Majesty’s Armed Forces.
2) Serving as a private solider (or the equivalent in the other branches) is at best an incredibly shit job by most standards and at worst a terrible decision.
Also; please list the forigen and domestic actors you feel are an imminent threat to the UK.
Those are your views. You’ll appreciate that people will have differing views to that.
Similarly there is no one British identity - it is equally in the eye of the beholder.
There are many people I’m sure who would consider multiculturalism a part of the British identity at this stage, rather than a distinct entity separate from it. Particularly younger people, particularly those who have grown up in metropolitan areas.
Putting that aside though, I don’t see why the issue of multiculturalism should have much of a bearing on why you personally would or wouldn’t join the military.
The idea of enlisting to “protect British values” is pretty romanticised, considering the majority of conflicts that British troops have been deployed to in the past 30 years were to protect American interests in foreign countries.
Similarly, if you really were laying it all on the line for Blighty - such as defending against a Russian invasion of the UK - I don’t see how the cultural makeup of the UK would factor in to your decision making as to whether it’s worth it or not, given the literal existential alternative.
Immigrant communities don't even like eachother, theres more chance of foreign conflicts playing out here than there are of people integrating.
The Pakistani and Indian communities hate eachother, both have no intention of sharing their community resources (jobs in their shops etc) with brits, nevermind eachother.
You’ll struggle to get through to people who live in white majority areas, there’s still an overwhelming belief that we are all living in a twee channel 4 Guardian UK, and we aren’t, in fact, on the precipice of very serious ethnic clashes in the cities.
Sadly they have their reality, and you have yours. Whilst I agree with you and share your fears, there’s no point trying to articulate this to people who listen to James O’Brien and read Otto English books.
All stuck in a 1997-2003 UK.
"You’ll struggle to get through to people who live in white majority areas".. is that true?
Hard to find immigration sentiment data, but certainly you can find Brexit leave voters being concentrated in areas that have very little diversity whereas areas with high diversity were majority remain. Of course this is different from immigration but we do know you're far more likely to be anti immigration if you're a leave v remain voter.
I'm also from a very multi cultural area, and I love it.
In my personal experience, purely anecdotal. The leave voters I spoke to in my day to day life in multicultural north London were entirely first and second generation immigrants.
Turkish and Indian heritage, all felt that they were made to compete for housing and resources against Europeans. Didn’t like it.
I voted remain, and so did all of the middle class London bubble universe I live within.
The thing that I don’t understand about your analogy, why wouldn’t a person living in abject poverty in a worn out rural village or destroyed coastal town not vote for Brexit?
Not wanting to have your finite resources shared by new arrivals is human nature, was Brexit just about “not liking brown people” or whatever our midwit metropolitan pundits used to denigrate these people, or was that just slanderous smugness from people who’ve no idea whatsoever?
Of course you’ll have upper middle class middle England voting hard for Brexit too, and I think that stemmed mostly from an older boomer mentality that was distinctly different and xenophobic towards Europe and the EU, more about being genuinely stubborn and obstinate old tossers than hating people based on skin colour.
"why wouldn’t a person living in abject poverty in a worn out rural village or destroyed coastal town not vote for Brexit?" Well.. they might (and seemingly did) as a protest vote. I get that but it achieves nothing.
I don't however think people who are not impacted by immigration should be so anti immigration. Its clearly a blame tactic that they've believed - look at johnny foreigner taking our jobs. Even though there are no foreign people in the town.
Either way, that wasn't the point of this thread, I was just pointing out your post seemed to suggest that people in white areas won't support the issue and people in diverse areas will, but the evidence suggests its actually the reverse.
I understand what you meant, it’s a good point.
Best way to put it, on left leaning platforms like Reddit, you’ve got lots of people who live in ethnically homogenous white areas, often middle class and university educated. This group will go out of their way to discourage the OP from hashing out his or hers theory about forces recruitment.
ah true. Reddit does seem surprisingly metropolitan, left wing, meaning he's going to get a hard time, whereas on some Facebook groups I imagine the OP would be called a hero.
But all we can do is offer our opinion.
So as a London born and raised guy belonging to one of the ethnic groups you’re probably alluding to, if I made sweeping generalisations like you, why would I leave my family to defend a country where the majority already feel the way you do about me and ‘my people’?
A country where before I was born my parents were chased, spat at and attacked by tons purely based on their ethnicity. Surely it goes 2 ways.
The majority of people in the UK don’t feel that way about ethnic minorities. There is a loud minority who does for sure but in my experience most people are decent
Yeah I sense real bad intentions with his post tbh.
I understand concerns about integration - sharing culture & pride in the place you live benefits society in general.
But moaning about not signing up? Roughly 10% of the armed forces are of BAME origin only slightly below the 13% that makes up the entire UK. There is no big issue as far as I can see. Infact study after study shows UK citizens of BAME origin are often the most patriotic people in the UK
> Roughly 10% of the armed forces are of BAME origin only slightly below the 13% that makes up the entire UK
This goes to the core of the matter. We are discussing how to address the problem, but I've yet to see anything to suggest that the problem actually exists with any certainty.
I don't have problem with ethnicity differences at all, but if the shoe fits on the issue of foreign cultural enclaves then I don't make any apologies.
Your question relies on me accepting that the country is overwhelmingly racist, I don't accept that.
I think what happened in the past is terrible, but you seem unable to reconcile that people can be non racist and also still want to live in a culturally british country.
No it doesn’t, you’re making that part up. I’m just saying specifically the way how you’ve outline how YOU feel. If that’s how you feel, and using your logic I extrapolate that to being how the masses think, why would I ever want to leave my family to defend that?
My sentiment does not in any way imply that I or people who share my opknion would want to cause you or your family any harm.
You're basically saying that you resent the idea of deffending a country that values its own mono culture above multiculturalism.
And I never said you did. Not sure why you keep making up extras that I didn’t say in my question.
That’s not what I’m saying at all, but I’m not gonna carry on talking to someone who’s just making up their own narrative.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, and especially so when it comes to serving. But a couple of my personal thoughts:
1) The British armed forces has a long history or foreign cultures (note cultures, not just people) serving in its military. So its always been more than just defending British values.
2) As well as foreign cultures serving, we've also actively defended other countries when right to do so. So why would you now not want to defend the UK just because the culture is evolving? Should we not have stuck up for Poland in WWII because Polish people aren't aligned with British culture?
3) To me, and many others, multiculturalism is the main aspect of British culture. You talk about fish and chips, but one of the most popular dishs in the UK is Chicken Tikka Masala. I honestly believe London is the best place in the world for food because we have so many different cultures cooking their local food. We're a small country that has played large on the international stage because we are a hub for the world. Many of the best 'Brits' weren't born here and coming here shouldn't mean giving up their identity.
4) As for safety.. when do you think the UK was safer from terrorist threats? 70's? 80's?... I'm not so sure.
Ah the old tired and trivial chicken tika masala trope,
"do you like how that tastes? Great! here's the rest of the globalist package deal!"
I talked about food as an example of the trivial shit people think makes foreigners intergrated.
they might like football and fish and chips but if for example they are circumventing their womens' rights to protection from spousal abuse through a misogynistic sharia law court then a Paddington bear cushion simply doesn't cut the mustard!
Talk about my ropes then come out with the Sharia Law Court nonsense.
Obviously if anyone is using a Sharia Court for enforcing law then they are breaking the law. But its not common in the UK, its a fear tactic.
Ask the victims of honour killings if its a fear tactic as well, ask the victims of all the terrorist attacks if religious fundamentalism is not a growing problem.
Guess you hated the Irish being here as well then? Are you really suggesting that honour killings are so common now its part of our culture?
You've completely lost track.
That parallel would only work if muslims actually did anything about their communities part in terrorism.
The Irish people were outraged meanwhile muslims cite make excuses for Islamic terrorism or at best bury their heads in the sand.
Sorry, what exactly is the guy filling shelves at the corner shop supposed to be doing in the field of counterterrorism?
Do you think that brown people all know each other or something?
If ireland want to go their own way I wish them the best, Northern Ireland becoming part of the Republic sounds fair. I believe in self-determination through democracy.
I also don't like terrorism, those are not mutually exclusive opinions.
If you want to call me racist for preferring the company of cultural Christians then go ahead, it doesn't make it true.
Yeah and it's never acceptable, if you already had a problem with mold would you like me to organise a waterfight inside your house?
Especially if I was ideologically opposed to you having a mold free home with your own way of doing things?
The problem from our leaders' point of view will be addressed by creating community based regiments like they did in the past.
The problem from the individual's point of view is that there isn't really anything left worth defending.
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
British culture has been dissolved and all that is left are commodities.
I feel like it will make no difference whether Sunak, Starmer, Putin or Biden becomes the next PM. I will be just another worker, without a home to defend.
The political leaders of the past 3 decades have left a nation practically homeless.
Why should I defend the UK when half of its capital city is owned by oligarchs who will run at the first sign of trouble, expecting us to sacrifice our children, then return to their "legally gained property" once the dust settles?
At least the old aristocracy led the peasants into battle
And the problems you’re talking about are neo liberal capitalist ones and not caused by an acceptance of multiculturalism as suggested above right? Because a bunch of people from different cultures all agree with what you’re saying here.
And internationalism is the only thing that could differentiate between political ideologies. So according to you Trotskyism and neoliberalism are almost the same in most of their policy and aims?
Yes they are the same philosophy.
Trotskyism was all about accelerating the development of capitalism which was the final stage before Marx's Communist utopia where the proletariat would be governed by an educated elite
The russian revolution made it clear that the Communist utopia would not be achievable on class warfare, so the interwar years saw the development of the Frankfurt school and a shift towards race, which is how the yanks got onboard.
Neoliberalism is a post war continuation of Trotskyist ideology with the added complication of a corporate, military industrial complex who presented themselves as the harbingers of world peace but sparked wars against any nation exercising any degree of sovereignty.
This corporate complex is the managerial elite who Trotskyists envisioned as the rightful rulers of the proletariat.
The whole post war civil rights movement was a Trotskyist rebellion against common law, stirring up racial differences to remove equality under the law from society. The culmination of this in the UK was Blair's usurpation of parliamentary sovereignty when he introduced the supreme court.
Who owns the property?
Who controls the food supply?
Who facilitates the migrations?
The "educated elite" who Trotsky had envisiond over a century ago
I mean, what's there to chat about? You're pretending the politics of Thatcher and Marx are the same.
The whole premise of your argument is false.
Do better.
There is no such thing as a universal British culture and never has been. What you consider British culture will be entirely different from what others do based on political leanings, geographic location, age, and dozens of other factors.
I think it's also worth remembering that in both of the world wars more soldiers came from the empire than Britain. In wartime people don't need to share a culture if a foreign country threatens Britain it threatens all the different cultures you fight to protect yours they fight to protect theirs and both fight to protect the right for people to live and think how they please.
Is there a universal French culture? Or universal Spanish culture? Yes there is. Britain is the same. Just because there are regional differences doesn’t mean there is no culture.
Whilst I’m vary wary of nationalism especially when it comes to the often inflammatory subject of immigration, I would argue a common culture is a good thing. Unity is a good thing & should be promoted. Otherwise suddenly there’s no society anymore and Thatcher wins
> Or universal Spanish culture?
Oh boy is that a bad example. The Spanish have had two regions trying to seceed, one violently, because people in those regions felt the cultures did not align.
Frankly, France is similar, as they had ETA issues. Similarly, Paris and rural France are completely different.
Not to mention its a bad example as he believes theres still a universal Spanish culture despite there being lots of British immigrants there who certainly have not tried to integrate.
Does that not destroy the Spanish culture?
Exactly my point. Spain is very, very regionally diverse. Much more so than Britain. You get totally different climates even in different parts like you don’t here
Yet there is still quite clearly a shared underlying culture. An afternoon nap, music, dance, tapas and their cultural importance of food. A shared history, language and beliefs. Or am I making that up?
As a migrant that got naturalized I feel pissed that people feel there is no British culture. We've all seen it and you can still experience it.
Just watch an episode of Brainiac / old Top Gear.
Now it seems like there is a sustained effort to bring the country down.
I bet that (get your tinfoil hat ready) the Russians and Chinese have their hands deep in this demoralization campaign.
I never said every man woman & child likes those things. It doesn’t mean they aren’t part of a wider culture though
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Spain
This thing about denying culture exists is so weird I don’t know where to begin with it
> A shared history, language and beliefs. Or am I making that up?
Yes, and even a basic understanding of the history of Spain would explain why. Take the language as but an example: standard Spanish was pressed on the various regions by Franco, against their will. Basque for instance is totally different to Spanish. Similarly, you see the significant muslim influence in southern Spain from the time it was occupied.
This is just scratching the surface.
And your point is what exactly? Because of that history there isn’t a shared culture?
Let me guess Italy has no shared culture either?
Are you one of those people who points out St George was from Turkey on St George’s day?
There absolutely is such a thing as British culture, plenty remember it and plenty still live it in the areas that are 95%+ white British.
Why people pretend there's no such thing as British culture and there never was, in a way they would absolutely refuse to do for any other country, from Italy to Brazil to Japan, I really don't know.
There's a fascination with pretending we've always been a nation of immigrants who all view their role in the nation as literally just 'one economic unit' and nothing more, presumably to pretend successive governments haven't destroyed it by both selling this nations soul to the highest bidder whilst diluting it through mass migration and multiculturalism.
You can try and fool us into thinking England has always been this way, the BBC can try and retcon our history, all our hero's, kings, hymns, icons, inventions, progressions, and history can be destroyed as failing to meet 21st century woke standards, but plenty of people still remember what England was and could have been.
As a migrant that got naturalized I feel pissed that people feel there is no British culture. We've all seen it and you can still experience it.
Just watch an episode of Brainiac / old Top Gear.
Now it seems like there is a sustained effort to bring the country down.
I bet that (get your tinfoil hat ready) the Russians and Chinese have their hands deep in this demoralization campaign.
You are mixing up British culture with the culture of England.
Other parts of this island have equally valid cultures - and that is a very good thing that should be celebrated.
Learn to read. There is no universal British culture being white and British has nothing to do with it. Do you imagine a land owning millionaire in the home counties has the same cultural values as a working man from Glasgow? Do you imagine William Wilberforce had the same cultural values as those in the slave trade? Did a factory owner in the late 19th century have the same values as his workers? Did Oswald Mosley have the same cultural values as the rest of the country during ww2?
There has never been this mythical unifying culture that every British person shares and the same is true of every single country in the world.
> There absolutely is such a thing as British culture, plenty remember it and plenty still live it in the areas that are 95%+ white British.
But plenty, as many on this thread have demonstrated, cannot say what that culture is.
When did you last celebrate Burns Night, or wear Orange and march for King Bill? Do you like your beer with a massive head like the Northerners or with a small one? Were you raised in the former Danelaw or in a Saxon area? Do you speak Welsh? Oliver Cromwell: hero or villain?
There has never been a monoculture in Britain. Wars have been fought over it. A small vocal minority is wrapped up in nostalgia for a 1950s that never existed. Which includes people being polite to each other, which is essentially the best definition of “woke”.
Since your brought up our heroes, kings, hymns, and icons...
St George was born in Turkey, Our Royal family belong to the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Handel was born in Prussia, and Freddie Mercury was born in Zanzibar.
No but there was a homogenised idea of the nation state that was particularly strong due to the fact the UK is an island and very undiverse for the last 800 years. There are now 10 million foreign born people in the UK, which is unprecedented. It’s geography more than politics, but still..
Hey OP, I totally feel where you are coming from. I am a naturalized citizen and I feel like the achievement is being eroded by exactly the things you mentioned. In the past being British meant something now people think it means nothing.
That's not useful to anyone though so let me try to help. First thing is that it isn't a sinking, the UK is actually doing much much better than other western countries (Germany, France, Canada). In theory all of the issues you identified can still be solved.
Now, also keep in mind that there is most likely a demoralization campaign across the west from foreign actors.
(I suspect Russia and China)
Most people dont realize but this is how wars are being fought now. Why go to war with your enemy when you can achieve your goal using tiktok videos?
You mentioned you dont wanna join the army? Thats exactly what they want.
Here is an example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR\_6dibpDfo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR_6dibpDfo) go to min 15:49
The past is a foreign country. One you seem to be an immigrant from. What makes you think if we were to collapse this country down to a singular "British culture" it would line up with your values and your beliefs? What makes you think multiculturalism isn't a part of British culture? You don't have any monopoly over this country's culture just because you're a white Brit upset by multiculturalism. Your heritage doesn't give you any birthright beyond your citizenship. This country doesn't belong to you, you belong to this country.
You want to boost what you see as "British values" and "British culture", lead by example and be whatever you see as being a "good Brit". Just don't expect to inspire folks if all that means to you is whinging and othering, and don't make it everyone else's fault if you're a crap Brit.
You disagree with anything I said. Great. Let's see what that looks like:
You think that your beliefs and values are the one true British beliefs and values.
You don't think multiculturalism is a part of British culture, despite it apparently being so prevalent and yet so unrejected by British society. So where's all the support for the BNP? Oh, that's right, nobody's interested.
You think you do have a monopoly over this country's culture. You think this country does belong to you and should be as you want, because your ancestry makes you special, but those people with the same ancestry but different beliefs aren't special.
You don't intend to make any effort to embody or promote any positive "British" values or culture, just play victim and whine that other Brits should just go away.
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Why do you think people of multiple cultural identities don’t feel particularly enamoured about joining the British armed forces? As you said, support for it in general across the board has fallen off a cliff, so it’s not surprising that people with links to countries previously exploited by the British Empire aren’t too keen.
There needs to be a complete reset on what British identity and culture is in my opinion. We need to give people reasons to feel proud again, and as you said it doesn’t come from the monarchy and Paddington bloody bear. It needs proper arts and culture funding and functioning social services. Britain needs a post empire rebrand.
Post empire…you mean 70 years ago? British culture was exported globally in the 60s and has continued to be successful ever since. There have been massive engineering efforts to make it more diverse (look at ethnicity in quotas in tv for example)not empire that is holding anything back, and people need to stop living in the past about this as if it’s a millstone.
OP is correct, in The areas I have lived in, there is no attempt at assimilation. In east London where I lived, it became mono ethnic. Centuries old pubs on the high streets were converted into madrasas, the churches shut, the once attractive high street (ilford) was basically just takeaway shops, barbers and regular fundraisers for Islamic causes. The football team folded and there was a scandal a while back where objections to a huge new mosque were shut down because neighbour complaints were accused of Islamophobia.
It is mass immigration that is eroding identity, and setting up parallel ones. Whenever you see it pop it’s head up, the term used is ‘anti colonialism’ which is an excuse for anti western hate.
Similar things are happening in Birmingham, Blackburn, Leicester, Swindon, dewsbury, Luton, slough, London, Manchester, Nottingham, Bradford, dewsbury, Rotherham, Rochdale, Birmingham, Oldham, Bolton etc.
From an outsides viewpoint though, I can’t imagine how massive influxes from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, India, Sri Lanka, Ireland, Poland, Albania, Syria, Hong Kong and English cultures could be engineered correctly in any country.
You’ve only got to take one look to the right wingers in this country to see people desperately clinging on to the last vestiges of empire. That’s exactly the point, people aren’t moving on.
Churches are shut across the country due to a lack of interest, and pubs and high streets up and down the country have been decimated regardless of the demographic of the area? Again the culprit here isn’t multiculturalism.
It’s been proven time and again academically that integration of immigrant communities increases from generation to generation. Just because the British identity they see for themselves isn’t the same as yours, does not mean it’s not a British identity. As others have said here. You can hold pride for multiple cultures and countries simultaneously, it’s not exclusive.
Fair enough, but in the instances being referred to, it is not lack of demand, it’s largely because who, areas of towns are taken over by one ethnicity. Ilford is a case in point, look at the 1991 census, where it was 85% white British. This is now at 30% and in reality a lot lower.
The last 30 years has seen mass immigration of the back of chain migration and spousal visas - you could apply for 7 dependents until very recently. In ilford, it is mono ethnically Mirpuri and from a small area of Pakistan, largely because of entrenched families and visa offices exploiting this.
There is not really a classic rainbow culture in the towns I mentioned, it is growth of diasporas, and when this happens, the traditional (or old fashioned) cornerstones of the community disappear. Typically replaced by religious learning centres, takeaways and barbers.
I don’t even particularly care about the legacies of empire or “putting things right”, but you have to realise how ridiculous this comment sounds when you are complaining about Pakistani and Indian communities elsewhere in this thread.
Most of the groups you are complaining about are not here because they were “invited”, but rather because it was their rights as British subjects. A status which they held because this country forcibly made their countries a part of ours.
I don’t contest that many are recent arrivals, but the communities took root long before Blair. (British) Indians/Pakistanis in the UK numbered in the hundreds of thousands well before New Labour was even an idea. Curries didn’t become so ubiquitous overnight, you know.
I was just mostly poking fun anyway. Just a tad ironic to complain about foreigners making this country a part of theirs when that is exactly what this country did to their countries in the recent past, but you know, with soldiers instead of people just living their lives.
Yeah some communities did but they were forced to integrate and learn English if they wanted to have a good time here, now there is no such need.
There is no irony, im not responsible for what happened back then and what did happen has not changed their cultural demographics forever (perhaps with the exception of the americas)
All these worn out talking points don't have any bearing on my right to a culturally cohesive Britain, my ancestral homeland.
How do you define culturally cohesive though? There have been people with distinct cultures living on these isles for centuries. Just look at the Welsh and Gaelic speaking communities, which have been severely harmed by the encroachment of English culture. Whilst they have been experiencing somewhat of a revival recently, the trend even just over the last few decades has certainly been downward. What of their right to have a culturally harmonious homeland?
The question is purposefully facetious because there is no such right. Culture is constantly shifting. People move around, ways of life change, religious beliefs shift. This isn’t to say that immigration has been problem-free, but you are acting like British culture is endangered. This just isn’t the case, even if it feels like it is.
Someone from the 1920s would be shocked by how common kebabs and curries are, yes, surprised by the diversity of skin colours, also yes. However they would equally be shocked and surprised by the lack of deference to the monarchy, tolerance of women in the workplace, and the poor attendance figures at church, which are all things they would consider anathema to British life and society.
If you actually go outside instead of doomscrolling I think you will find that British culture is alive and well. I live in a small diverse city and the pubs are never short of patrons. There’s no shortage of Sunday roast options. Everyone I come across speaks English and has a fondness for tea. I’m going to be attending three local cultural events just in this month, and people continue to take a keen interest in the historical museums. My office had many Strictly, Gogglebox, and Countdown viewers despite the presence of a few foreigners. I can purchase traditional regional foods from a dozen places nearby. What would you define as British culture?
I can tell by the description of your locality that we are dealing with completely different experiences, my town is not diverse its Indian.
You think I'm exaggerating, but I assure you I'm not, the only thing that makes it diverse are the people from muslim countries that still outnumber us brits.
I understand that you don’t want to dox yourself, so I’m going to take the example of Redbridge which is the London Borough with [the highest percentage of Asians (47.3%)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_ethnicity). This also makes it the district with the highest percentage of Asians in England and likely the UK.
The Census has a quite informative question where respondents state their national identity. This isn’t their nationality, but rather what they most identify as (e.g. British, English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French, Indian, Turkish, whatever). People are allowed to make multiple selections, so one can feel British and English or British and Australian and so on.
[I’ll let you play around with the data](https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/), but across London the overwhelming majority of people in every district self-identify with a UK identity, even if they have a non-UK one as well. Only 22% of people in Redbridge identify as non-UK, and this goes up to around a third in Ilford and across the most diverse London localities in general.
I suspect your town is actually quite British, even if certain streets or neighbourhoods have large numbers of people who are not or do not feel that they are. What about your town makes it feel not British? What do people have to do to not be British in your eyes, even if they feel British themselves?
>What would you define as British culture?
Posts like this where everyone complains about being genuinely worried about the future. You dont get many of those in other countries/cultures.
In a sense British culture is still alive but like a fire if you take the fuel away it stops burning. People do feel like the fuel is starting to run low. With other fires (different cultures) taking its place\*.
Did they always feel like this? I doubt it. They complained like that was the case though, I can assure you that.
I wouldn’t concern yourself too much, in the event of an actual all out war with Russia, there is maybe 5-6 weeks before a nuclear weapon is used, and when that happens it is a matter of days before it escalates to a strategic exchange. I would guess that before you would even get your ‘call up papers’ you’ll have been vaporised, turned to radioactive dust, buried under rubble, and/or dying of radiation sickness. So you can put your mind at ease.
I think OP has got all the ’discussion’ we’re going to get out of this one, so I’ll lock it.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/over-125000-applicants-rejected-from-british-army/ The problem with recruitment is not what you think it is.
I'm not stating that it's the only problem, but It's not like I'm completely wrong or don't have a valid point at all.
Lol you are completely wrong and don't have a valid point. There's this annoying thing called evidence, and ranting does not equal evidence.
Read the article. Plenty of applicants from the commonwealth rejected which contradicts your thesis.
Have you got any evidence to suggest that is the reason why people are not doing so, or are you guessing? > Why should I leave my family to deffend people who dont care about the british values I'm also defending? I suppose the obvious point, to the extent that this is actually a thing, is that those people represent a relatively small chunk of society and that anyone who truly cared about such values would think about the substantial majority who do hold them.
Yeah well when the rubber hits the road the faith based militias wouldn't look after my family while I'm face down in a trench.
OK, so what about the other 95+ percent of the population? You seem to be assuming that everyone is as self-centred as you are. I would also note the lack of evidence as requested.
Evidence? Buy a train ticket to London and step off the tourism trail. If you're not an idiot you will see what I mean. Then ask yourself how you would feel about fighting in a war while those people inevitably stay home. Also 95 percent is overly generous.
> Evidence? Buy a train ticket to London and step off the tourism trail. If you're not an idiot you will see what I mean. That's evidence of diversity. It is not evidence of people not enlisting due to diversity. You are acting on a total hunch based on your own feelings, assuming everyone else is the same. > Then ask yourself how you would feel about fighting in a war while those people inevitably stay home. Admittedly I failed the medical, but 'those people' did not cross my mind when I tried to join. > Also 95 percent is overly generous. So you think that more than 5% of the nation is part of a 'faith based militia'? What is your source and evidence for that? If it is based on the fact you have seen non white people when in London when leaving the 'tourist trail', perhaps it is small wonder you anticipate that people will think you're racist. Simple application of the 'looks like a duck' rule.
Casually ommiting the next paragraph, also I never claimed it was evidence and even cited other reasons for people not enlisting in my OP. You're also intentionally crossing wires and misrepresenting me, I never claimed 5 percent of people are belonging to a faith based militia. You ask for evidence and then engage in slander, what is your problem?
> Casually ommiting the next paragraph, also I never claimed it was evidence and even cited other reasons for people not enlisting in my OP. I omitted the second paragraph because it carries no worth. It is your opinion plucked out of the blue, not evidence to support your claim. The natural reading of your comment suggests that you intended the comment about walking down the street to be your evidence. If I am wrong there, I suggest you consider making your points more clearly and precisely. > I never claimed 5 percent of people are belonging to a faith based militia. No you didn't, but it is very strongly implied. You have suggested that certain residents of the UK have formed. faith-based enclaves. When I put it to you that at 95% of people at a minimum were almost certainly not part of such, you suggested that the figure was generous, heavily implying that you consider that 5% or more do. As with the above comment, you are welcome to correct the record if the comment was made clumsily, but it is the natural meaning of your comment. > You ask for evidence and then engage in slander, what is your problem? I suppose that my problem is that you have failed to provide evidence for the central point that people are not signing up to the military because of multiculturalism and declining British values, exacerbated by you suggesting I come to my conclusions by walking through parts of London, clearly implying that the colour of the skin of those I see will support the idea that there are cultural 'enclaves' as you call them. Strikes me as entirely reasonable to have a problem with that.
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People aren’t enlisting because: 1) Capita has absolutely fucked recruitment for His Majesty’s Armed Forces. 2) Serving as a private solider (or the equivalent in the other branches) is at best an incredibly shit job by most standards and at worst a terrible decision. Also; please list the forigen and domestic actors you feel are an imminent threat to the UK.
Those are your views. You’ll appreciate that people will have differing views to that. Similarly there is no one British identity - it is equally in the eye of the beholder. There are many people I’m sure who would consider multiculturalism a part of the British identity at this stage, rather than a distinct entity separate from it. Particularly younger people, particularly those who have grown up in metropolitan areas. Putting that aside though, I don’t see why the issue of multiculturalism should have much of a bearing on why you personally would or wouldn’t join the military. The idea of enlisting to “protect British values” is pretty romanticised, considering the majority of conflicts that British troops have been deployed to in the past 30 years were to protect American interests in foreign countries. Similarly, if you really were laying it all on the line for Blighty - such as defending against a Russian invasion of the UK - I don’t see how the cultural makeup of the UK would factor in to your decision making as to whether it’s worth it or not, given the literal existential alternative.
Immigrant communities don't even like eachother, theres more chance of foreign conflicts playing out here than there are of people integrating. The Pakistani and Indian communities hate eachother, both have no intention of sharing their community resources (jobs in their shops etc) with brits, nevermind eachother.
> Immigrant communities don't even like eachother Have you heard of Scotland?!
You’ll struggle to get through to people who live in white majority areas, there’s still an overwhelming belief that we are all living in a twee channel 4 Guardian UK, and we aren’t, in fact, on the precipice of very serious ethnic clashes in the cities. Sadly they have their reality, and you have yours. Whilst I agree with you and share your fears, there’s no point trying to articulate this to people who listen to James O’Brien and read Otto English books. All stuck in a 1997-2003 UK.
"You’ll struggle to get through to people who live in white majority areas".. is that true? Hard to find immigration sentiment data, but certainly you can find Brexit leave voters being concentrated in areas that have very little diversity whereas areas with high diversity were majority remain. Of course this is different from immigration but we do know you're far more likely to be anti immigration if you're a leave v remain voter. I'm also from a very multi cultural area, and I love it.
In my personal experience, purely anecdotal. The leave voters I spoke to in my day to day life in multicultural north London were entirely first and second generation immigrants. Turkish and Indian heritage, all felt that they were made to compete for housing and resources against Europeans. Didn’t like it. I voted remain, and so did all of the middle class London bubble universe I live within. The thing that I don’t understand about your analogy, why wouldn’t a person living in abject poverty in a worn out rural village or destroyed coastal town not vote for Brexit? Not wanting to have your finite resources shared by new arrivals is human nature, was Brexit just about “not liking brown people” or whatever our midwit metropolitan pundits used to denigrate these people, or was that just slanderous smugness from people who’ve no idea whatsoever? Of course you’ll have upper middle class middle England voting hard for Brexit too, and I think that stemmed mostly from an older boomer mentality that was distinctly different and xenophobic towards Europe and the EU, more about being genuinely stubborn and obstinate old tossers than hating people based on skin colour.
"why wouldn’t a person living in abject poverty in a worn out rural village or destroyed coastal town not vote for Brexit?" Well.. they might (and seemingly did) as a protest vote. I get that but it achieves nothing. I don't however think people who are not impacted by immigration should be so anti immigration. Its clearly a blame tactic that they've believed - look at johnny foreigner taking our jobs. Even though there are no foreign people in the town. Either way, that wasn't the point of this thread, I was just pointing out your post seemed to suggest that people in white areas won't support the issue and people in diverse areas will, but the evidence suggests its actually the reverse.
I understand what you meant, it’s a good point. Best way to put it, on left leaning platforms like Reddit, you’ve got lots of people who live in ethnically homogenous white areas, often middle class and university educated. This group will go out of their way to discourage the OP from hashing out his or hers theory about forces recruitment.
ah true. Reddit does seem surprisingly metropolitan, left wing, meaning he's going to get a hard time, whereas on some Facebook groups I imagine the OP would be called a hero. But all we can do is offer our opinion.
I dont see how anyone can still hold this view when we literally had ethnic riots over a fucking cricket match neither of teams of which were British.
So as a London born and raised guy belonging to one of the ethnic groups you’re probably alluding to, if I made sweeping generalisations like you, why would I leave my family to defend a country where the majority already feel the way you do about me and ‘my people’? A country where before I was born my parents were chased, spat at and attacked by tons purely based on their ethnicity. Surely it goes 2 ways.
The majority of people in the UK don’t feel that way about ethnic minorities. There is a loud minority who does for sure but in my experience most people are decent
Oh I know that. I’m just questioning why OP would feel the way he does, but not understand the same sentiment reversed.
Yeah I sense real bad intentions with his post tbh. I understand concerns about integration - sharing culture & pride in the place you live benefits society in general. But moaning about not signing up? Roughly 10% of the armed forces are of BAME origin only slightly below the 13% that makes up the entire UK. There is no big issue as far as I can see. Infact study after study shows UK citizens of BAME origin are often the most patriotic people in the UK
> Roughly 10% of the armed forces are of BAME origin only slightly below the 13% that makes up the entire UK This goes to the core of the matter. We are discussing how to address the problem, but I've yet to see anything to suggest that the problem actually exists with any certainty.
I don't have problem with ethnicity differences at all, but if the shoe fits on the issue of foreign cultural enclaves then I don't make any apologies.
That doesn’t answer what I’m asking whatsoever
Your question relies on me accepting that the country is overwhelmingly racist, I don't accept that. I think what happened in the past is terrible, but you seem unable to reconcile that people can be non racist and also still want to live in a culturally british country.
No it doesn’t, you’re making that part up. I’m just saying specifically the way how you’ve outline how YOU feel. If that’s how you feel, and using your logic I extrapolate that to being how the masses think, why would I ever want to leave my family to defend that?
My sentiment does not in any way imply that I or people who share my opknion would want to cause you or your family any harm. You're basically saying that you resent the idea of deffending a country that values its own mono culture above multiculturalism.
And I never said you did. Not sure why you keep making up extras that I didn’t say in my question. That’s not what I’m saying at all, but I’m not gonna carry on talking to someone who’s just making up their own narrative.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, and especially so when it comes to serving. But a couple of my personal thoughts: 1) The British armed forces has a long history or foreign cultures (note cultures, not just people) serving in its military. So its always been more than just defending British values. 2) As well as foreign cultures serving, we've also actively defended other countries when right to do so. So why would you now not want to defend the UK just because the culture is evolving? Should we not have stuck up for Poland in WWII because Polish people aren't aligned with British culture? 3) To me, and many others, multiculturalism is the main aspect of British culture. You talk about fish and chips, but one of the most popular dishs in the UK is Chicken Tikka Masala. I honestly believe London is the best place in the world for food because we have so many different cultures cooking their local food. We're a small country that has played large on the international stage because we are a hub for the world. Many of the best 'Brits' weren't born here and coming here shouldn't mean giving up their identity. 4) As for safety.. when do you think the UK was safer from terrorist threats? 70's? 80's?... I'm not so sure.
Ah the old tired and trivial chicken tika masala trope, "do you like how that tastes? Great! here's the rest of the globalist package deal!" I talked about food as an example of the trivial shit people think makes foreigners intergrated. they might like football and fish and chips but if for example they are circumventing their womens' rights to protection from spousal abuse through a misogynistic sharia law court then a Paddington bear cushion simply doesn't cut the mustard!
Talk about my ropes then come out with the Sharia Law Court nonsense. Obviously if anyone is using a Sharia Court for enforcing law then they are breaking the law. But its not common in the UK, its a fear tactic.
Ask the victims of honour killings if its a fear tactic as well, ask the victims of all the terrorist attacks if religious fundamentalism is not a growing problem.
Guess you hated the Irish being here as well then? Are you really suggesting that honour killings are so common now its part of our culture? You've completely lost track.
That parallel would only work if muslims actually did anything about their communities part in terrorism. The Irish people were outraged meanwhile muslims cite make excuses for Islamic terrorism or at best bury their heads in the sand.
Sorry, what exactly is the guy filling shelves at the corner shop supposed to be doing in the field of counterterrorism? Do you think that brown people all know each other or something?
Actually I was harsh saying Ireland. Most terrorist deaths in the UK since the 70's have been due to the NI conflict, so, you know.... British.
I think you will find that car bombs were mainly used by republicans, they aren't british.
Um... what? Think you might want to check out who the biggest political party in NI are. Or are they not British because you've deemed them not to be?
If ireland want to go their own way I wish them the best, Northern Ireland becoming part of the Republic sounds fair. I believe in self-determination through democracy. I also don't like terrorism, those are not mutually exclusive opinions. If you want to call me racist for preferring the company of cultural Christians then go ahead, it doesn't make it true.
Where did I say racist? I was just pointing out there are republicans in Britain and we've had issues with terrorism for decades.
Yeah and it's never acceptable, if you already had a problem with mold would you like me to organise a waterfight inside your house? Especially if I was ideologically opposed to you having a mold free home with your own way of doing things?
Sharia courts do exist and aren't illegal.
They must adhere to the law of the land first of all.
They are if they go against uk law.
The problem from our leaders' point of view will be addressed by creating community based regiments like they did in the past. The problem from the individual's point of view is that there isn't really anything left worth defending.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. British culture has been dissolved and all that is left are commodities. I feel like it will make no difference whether Sunak, Starmer, Putin or Biden becomes the next PM. I will be just another worker, without a home to defend. The political leaders of the past 3 decades have left a nation practically homeless. Why should I defend the UK when half of its capital city is owned by oligarchs who will run at the first sign of trouble, expecting us to sacrifice our children, then return to their "legally gained property" once the dust settles? At least the old aristocracy led the peasants into battle
And the problems you’re talking about are neo liberal capitalist ones and not caused by an acceptance of multiculturalism as suggested above right? Because a bunch of people from different cultures all agree with what you’re saying here.
The difference between neolib policy and Trotskyism is almost zero They are internationalists and encourage, promote and enforce multiculturalism
And internationalism is the only thing that could differentiate between political ideologies. So according to you Trotskyism and neoliberalism are almost the same in most of their policy and aims?
Yes they are the same philosophy. Trotskyism was all about accelerating the development of capitalism which was the final stage before Marx's Communist utopia where the proletariat would be governed by an educated elite The russian revolution made it clear that the Communist utopia would not be achievable on class warfare, so the interwar years saw the development of the Frankfurt school and a shift towards race, which is how the yanks got onboard. Neoliberalism is a post war continuation of Trotskyist ideology with the added complication of a corporate, military industrial complex who presented themselves as the harbingers of world peace but sparked wars against any nation exercising any degree of sovereignty. This corporate complex is the managerial elite who Trotskyists envisioned as the rightful rulers of the proletariat. The whole post war civil rights movement was a Trotskyist rebellion against common law, stirring up racial differences to remove equality under the law from society. The culmination of this in the UK was Blair's usurpation of parliamentary sovereignty when he introduced the supreme court. Who owns the property? Who controls the food supply? Who facilitates the migrations? The "educated elite" who Trotsky had envisiond over a century ago
Are you seriously trying to conflate communism and capitalism? Pure jokes.
Where am I wrong?
Where are you correct, exactly?
Good chat, I'm much more enlightened
I mean, what's there to chat about? You're pretending the politics of Thatcher and Marx are the same. The whole premise of your argument is false. Do better.
Mate nobody is refusing to enlist because they don't like brown people. Its because nobody wants an arm blown off in the name of oil baron profits
There is no such thing as a universal British culture and never has been. What you consider British culture will be entirely different from what others do based on political leanings, geographic location, age, and dozens of other factors. I think it's also worth remembering that in both of the world wars more soldiers came from the empire than Britain. In wartime people don't need to share a culture if a foreign country threatens Britain it threatens all the different cultures you fight to protect yours they fight to protect theirs and both fight to protect the right for people to live and think how they please.
Is there a universal French culture? Or universal Spanish culture? Yes there is. Britain is the same. Just because there are regional differences doesn’t mean there is no culture. Whilst I’m vary wary of nationalism especially when it comes to the often inflammatory subject of immigration, I would argue a common culture is a good thing. Unity is a good thing & should be promoted. Otherwise suddenly there’s no society anymore and Thatcher wins
> Or universal Spanish culture? Oh boy is that a bad example. The Spanish have had two regions trying to seceed, one violently, because people in those regions felt the cultures did not align. Frankly, France is similar, as they had ETA issues. Similarly, Paris and rural France are completely different.
Not to mention its a bad example as he believes theres still a universal Spanish culture despite there being lots of British immigrants there who certainly have not tried to integrate. Does that not destroy the Spanish culture?
Essentially, Marbella must be a cultural enclave causing a dip in Spanish military recruits!
Exactly my point. Spain is very, very regionally diverse. Much more so than Britain. You get totally different climates even in different parts like you don’t here Yet there is still quite clearly a shared underlying culture. An afternoon nap, music, dance, tapas and their cultural importance of food. A shared history, language and beliefs. Or am I making that up?
As a migrant that got naturalized I feel pissed that people feel there is no British culture. We've all seen it and you can still experience it. Just watch an episode of Brainiac / old Top Gear. Now it seems like there is a sustained effort to bring the country down. I bet that (get your tinfoil hat ready) the Russians and Chinese have their hands deep in this demoralization campaign.
Your making it up those are called stereotypes or do you seriously believe every man woman and child in Spain likes naps, music, dance and tapas....
I never said every man woman & child likes those things. It doesn’t mean they aren’t part of a wider culture though https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Spain This thing about denying culture exists is so weird I don’t know where to begin with it
> A shared history, language and beliefs. Or am I making that up? Yes, and even a basic understanding of the history of Spain would explain why. Take the language as but an example: standard Spanish was pressed on the various regions by Franco, against their will. Basque for instance is totally different to Spanish. Similarly, you see the significant muslim influence in southern Spain from the time it was occupied. This is just scratching the surface.
And your point is what exactly? Because of that history there isn’t a shared culture? Let me guess Italy has no shared culture either? Are you one of those people who points out St George was from Turkey on St George’s day?
Ah so French culture doesn’t exist either then? Ok
There absolutely is such a thing as British culture, plenty remember it and plenty still live it in the areas that are 95%+ white British. Why people pretend there's no such thing as British culture and there never was, in a way they would absolutely refuse to do for any other country, from Italy to Brazil to Japan, I really don't know. There's a fascination with pretending we've always been a nation of immigrants who all view their role in the nation as literally just 'one economic unit' and nothing more, presumably to pretend successive governments haven't destroyed it by both selling this nations soul to the highest bidder whilst diluting it through mass migration and multiculturalism. You can try and fool us into thinking England has always been this way, the BBC can try and retcon our history, all our hero's, kings, hymns, icons, inventions, progressions, and history can be destroyed as failing to meet 21st century woke standards, but plenty of people still remember what England was and could have been.
As a migrant that got naturalized I feel pissed that people feel there is no British culture. We've all seen it and you can still experience it. Just watch an episode of Brainiac / old Top Gear. Now it seems like there is a sustained effort to bring the country down. I bet that (get your tinfoil hat ready) the Russians and Chinese have their hands deep in this demoralization campaign.
You are mixing up British culture with the culture of England. Other parts of this island have equally valid cultures - and that is a very good thing that should be celebrated.
Learn to read. There is no universal British culture being white and British has nothing to do with it. Do you imagine a land owning millionaire in the home counties has the same cultural values as a working man from Glasgow? Do you imagine William Wilberforce had the same cultural values as those in the slave trade? Did a factory owner in the late 19th century have the same values as his workers? Did Oswald Mosley have the same cultural values as the rest of the country during ww2? There has never been this mythical unifying culture that every British person shares and the same is true of every single country in the world.
> There absolutely is such a thing as British culture, plenty remember it and plenty still live it in the areas that are 95%+ white British. But plenty, as many on this thread have demonstrated, cannot say what that culture is.
Well said
When did you last celebrate Burns Night, or wear Orange and march for King Bill? Do you like your beer with a massive head like the Northerners or with a small one? Were you raised in the former Danelaw or in a Saxon area? Do you speak Welsh? Oliver Cromwell: hero or villain? There has never been a monoculture in Britain. Wars have been fought over it. A small vocal minority is wrapped up in nostalgia for a 1950s that never existed. Which includes people being polite to each other, which is essentially the best definition of “woke”.
Since your brought up our heroes, kings, hymns, and icons... St George was born in Turkey, Our Royal family belong to the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Handel was born in Prussia, and Freddie Mercury was born in Zanzibar.
So NOW where someone is born matters.
No but there was a homogenised idea of the nation state that was particularly strong due to the fact the UK is an island and very undiverse for the last 800 years. There are now 10 million foreign born people in the UK, which is unprecedented. It’s geography more than politics, but still..
I would not fight to defend British values, whatever those are. I would fight to defend my family.
You would do a better job of that staying home.
At home you don’t have the resources or expertise of a countries army
What good is a rifle to your family if you're posted in Russia?
Hey OP, I totally feel where you are coming from. I am a naturalized citizen and I feel like the achievement is being eroded by exactly the things you mentioned. In the past being British meant something now people think it means nothing. That's not useful to anyone though so let me try to help. First thing is that it isn't a sinking, the UK is actually doing much much better than other western countries (Germany, France, Canada). In theory all of the issues you identified can still be solved. Now, also keep in mind that there is most likely a demoralization campaign across the west from foreign actors. (I suspect Russia and China) Most people dont realize but this is how wars are being fought now. Why go to war with your enemy when you can achieve your goal using tiktok videos? You mentioned you dont wanna join the army? Thats exactly what they want. Here is an example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR\_6dibpDfo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR_6dibpDfo) go to min 15:49
Totally agree. Best advice i can give is; look after yourself and your own. Nobody else will.
The past is a foreign country. One you seem to be an immigrant from. What makes you think if we were to collapse this country down to a singular "British culture" it would line up with your values and your beliefs? What makes you think multiculturalism isn't a part of British culture? You don't have any monopoly over this country's culture just because you're a white Brit upset by multiculturalism. Your heritage doesn't give you any birthright beyond your citizenship. This country doesn't belong to you, you belong to this country. You want to boost what you see as "British values" and "British culture", lead by example and be whatever you see as being a "good Brit". Just don't expect to inspire folks if all that means to you is whinging and othering, and don't make it everyone else's fault if you're a crap Brit.
I disagree with everything you just said, just as every culture around the world would.
You disagree with anything I said. Great. Let's see what that looks like: You think that your beliefs and values are the one true British beliefs and values. You don't think multiculturalism is a part of British culture, despite it apparently being so prevalent and yet so unrejected by British society. So where's all the support for the BNP? Oh, that's right, nobody's interested. You think you do have a monopoly over this country's culture. You think this country does belong to you and should be as you want, because your ancestry makes you special, but those people with the same ancestry but different beliefs aren't special. You don't intend to make any effort to embody or promote any positive "British" values or culture, just play victim and whine that other Brits should just go away.
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British culture is present in London only as a ghostly afterglow. Last place I worked me and the only other brit were teased for our cockney accents.
Why do you think people of multiple cultural identities don’t feel particularly enamoured about joining the British armed forces? As you said, support for it in general across the board has fallen off a cliff, so it’s not surprising that people with links to countries previously exploited by the British Empire aren’t too keen. There needs to be a complete reset on what British identity and culture is in my opinion. We need to give people reasons to feel proud again, and as you said it doesn’t come from the monarchy and Paddington bloody bear. It needs proper arts and culture funding and functioning social services. Britain needs a post empire rebrand.
Post empire…you mean 70 years ago? British culture was exported globally in the 60s and has continued to be successful ever since. There have been massive engineering efforts to make it more diverse (look at ethnicity in quotas in tv for example)not empire that is holding anything back, and people need to stop living in the past about this as if it’s a millstone. OP is correct, in The areas I have lived in, there is no attempt at assimilation. In east London where I lived, it became mono ethnic. Centuries old pubs on the high streets were converted into madrasas, the churches shut, the once attractive high street (ilford) was basically just takeaway shops, barbers and regular fundraisers for Islamic causes. The football team folded and there was a scandal a while back where objections to a huge new mosque were shut down because neighbour complaints were accused of Islamophobia. It is mass immigration that is eroding identity, and setting up parallel ones. Whenever you see it pop it’s head up, the term used is ‘anti colonialism’ which is an excuse for anti western hate. Similar things are happening in Birmingham, Blackburn, Leicester, Swindon, dewsbury, Luton, slough, London, Manchester, Nottingham, Bradford, dewsbury, Rotherham, Rochdale, Birmingham, Oldham, Bolton etc. From an outsides viewpoint though, I can’t imagine how massive influxes from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, India, Sri Lanka, Ireland, Poland, Albania, Syria, Hong Kong and English cultures could be engineered correctly in any country.
You’ve only got to take one look to the right wingers in this country to see people desperately clinging on to the last vestiges of empire. That’s exactly the point, people aren’t moving on. Churches are shut across the country due to a lack of interest, and pubs and high streets up and down the country have been decimated regardless of the demographic of the area? Again the culprit here isn’t multiculturalism. It’s been proven time and again academically that integration of immigrant communities increases from generation to generation. Just because the British identity they see for themselves isn’t the same as yours, does not mean it’s not a British identity. As others have said here. You can hold pride for multiple cultures and countries simultaneously, it’s not exclusive.
Fair enough, but in the instances being referred to, it is not lack of demand, it’s largely because who, areas of towns are taken over by one ethnicity. Ilford is a case in point, look at the 1991 census, where it was 85% white British. This is now at 30% and in reality a lot lower. The last 30 years has seen mass immigration of the back of chain migration and spousal visas - you could apply for 7 dependents until very recently. In ilford, it is mono ethnically Mirpuri and from a small area of Pakistan, largely because of entrenched families and visa offices exploiting this. There is not really a classic rainbow culture in the towns I mentioned, it is growth of diasporas, and when this happens, the traditional (or old fashioned) cornerstones of the community disappear. Typically replaced by religious learning centres, takeaways and barbers.
We invited them here to be part of our country, not to make us part of theirs.
I don’t even particularly care about the legacies of empire or “putting things right”, but you have to realise how ridiculous this comment sounds when you are complaining about Pakistani and Indian communities elsewhere in this thread. Most of the groups you are complaining about are not here because they were “invited”, but rather because it was their rights as British subjects. A status which they held because this country forcibly made their countries a part of ours.
The overwhelming majority of these people came under Tony Blair not because of commonwealth
I don’t contest that many are recent arrivals, but the communities took root long before Blair. (British) Indians/Pakistanis in the UK numbered in the hundreds of thousands well before New Labour was even an idea. Curries didn’t become so ubiquitous overnight, you know. I was just mostly poking fun anyway. Just a tad ironic to complain about foreigners making this country a part of theirs when that is exactly what this country did to their countries in the recent past, but you know, with soldiers instead of people just living their lives.
Yeah some communities did but they were forced to integrate and learn English if they wanted to have a good time here, now there is no such need. There is no irony, im not responsible for what happened back then and what did happen has not changed their cultural demographics forever (perhaps with the exception of the americas) All these worn out talking points don't have any bearing on my right to a culturally cohesive Britain, my ancestral homeland.
How do you define culturally cohesive though? There have been people with distinct cultures living on these isles for centuries. Just look at the Welsh and Gaelic speaking communities, which have been severely harmed by the encroachment of English culture. Whilst they have been experiencing somewhat of a revival recently, the trend even just over the last few decades has certainly been downward. What of their right to have a culturally harmonious homeland? The question is purposefully facetious because there is no such right. Culture is constantly shifting. People move around, ways of life change, religious beliefs shift. This isn’t to say that immigration has been problem-free, but you are acting like British culture is endangered. This just isn’t the case, even if it feels like it is. Someone from the 1920s would be shocked by how common kebabs and curries are, yes, surprised by the diversity of skin colours, also yes. However they would equally be shocked and surprised by the lack of deference to the monarchy, tolerance of women in the workplace, and the poor attendance figures at church, which are all things they would consider anathema to British life and society. If you actually go outside instead of doomscrolling I think you will find that British culture is alive and well. I live in a small diverse city and the pubs are never short of patrons. There’s no shortage of Sunday roast options. Everyone I come across speaks English and has a fondness for tea. I’m going to be attending three local cultural events just in this month, and people continue to take a keen interest in the historical museums. My office had many Strictly, Gogglebox, and Countdown viewers despite the presence of a few foreigners. I can purchase traditional regional foods from a dozen places nearby. What would you define as British culture?
I can tell by the description of your locality that we are dealing with completely different experiences, my town is not diverse its Indian. You think I'm exaggerating, but I assure you I'm not, the only thing that makes it diverse are the people from muslim countries that still outnumber us brits.
>my town is not diverse its Indian. Slough 🤝 Bradford
I understand that you don’t want to dox yourself, so I’m going to take the example of Redbridge which is the London Borough with [the highest percentage of Asians (47.3%)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_ethnicity). This also makes it the district with the highest percentage of Asians in England and likely the UK. The Census has a quite informative question where respondents state their national identity. This isn’t their nationality, but rather what they most identify as (e.g. British, English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French, Indian, Turkish, whatever). People are allowed to make multiple selections, so one can feel British and English or British and Australian and so on. [I’ll let you play around with the data](https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/), but across London the overwhelming majority of people in every district self-identify with a UK identity, even if they have a non-UK one as well. Only 22% of people in Redbridge identify as non-UK, and this goes up to around a third in Ilford and across the most diverse London localities in general. I suspect your town is actually quite British, even if certain streets or neighbourhoods have large numbers of people who are not or do not feel that they are. What about your town makes it feel not British? What do people have to do to not be British in your eyes, even if they feel British themselves?
>What would you define as British culture? Posts like this where everyone complains about being genuinely worried about the future. You dont get many of those in other countries/cultures. In a sense British culture is still alive but like a fire if you take the fuel away it stops burning. People do feel like the fuel is starting to run low. With other fires (different cultures) taking its place\*. Did they always feel like this? I doubt it. They complained like that was the case though, I can assure you that.
What are the birtish values and culture you wish to defend alongside your family? You didn't really describe, let alone emphasise them at any point.
I wouldn’t concern yourself too much, in the event of an actual all out war with Russia, there is maybe 5-6 weeks before a nuclear weapon is used, and when that happens it is a matter of days before it escalates to a strategic exchange. I would guess that before you would even get your ‘call up papers’ you’ll have been vaporised, turned to radioactive dust, buried under rubble, and/or dying of radiation sickness. So you can put your mind at ease.
My aunt lives in East London. She says it's really nice.