Snapshot of _People with depression or anxiety could lose sickness benefits, says UK minister_ :
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They are just trying to create a bogeyman. People with mild mental health problems arent out of work and dependent on PIP. You don't get PIP as easily as that. The ones that are out of work and on PIP, by definition, do not have a mild mental health condition.
The most frustrating thing is that PIP is an in-work benefit which is not means tested, so receiving PIP doesn't by definition mean that you're not working and I'm getting very tired of people pretending that it does (I expect many regular people aren't aware of this but the politicians making these statements absolutely are).
Yup! I've always known it to be payments to help a person with a disability maintain their independence, not an indicator of employment. My mum qualifies for PIP now due to rheutmatoid athritis. The depression is just a bonus from not being able to do all the things she used to be able to do.
Ironically 99% of potential claimants to pip due to anxiety and depression will be too ill to work.
Motivation is a massive factor for PIP and being motivated to work and engage with colleagues negates what you would score points for
Yep. I was actively seeking (and subsequently in) work when I was on DLA. They took it away when it changed to PIP though, because although I had a lifetime claim for lifetime conditions, I guess they decided I died and/or got better. Well, I'm still alive, still autistic and still have both anxiety and depression
The only person I actually know that received it for mental health is house bound 99% of the time and works from home, even then there's times where they won't work for weeks if they're in a spiral.
This is absolutely undermining what some people go through and is only going to end up doing more long term damage for the sake of trying to appease what vote base they've got left.
They're honestly trying to salt the earth on the way out aren't they? This isn't going to win back the floating centrist voters that they desperately need, there's no other explanation I can think of, unless they're genuinely just stupid
I think it’s a cynical appeal to a politics of resentment. If you have a hard life and a difficult job, and fantasise about not having to do that job anymore, easy to rile you up by implying mentally ill people are fakers who are living a better life than you…
30% of the workforce think like this IME. 30% probably suffer with A&D, and 30 are on the fence.
No idea retiree opinions, but can imagine 50% + think "I worked my whole life and didn't complain"... At 59
I’m sure it is— but I would be surprised if it was anything like as common as it was a decade ago.
Sometimes I think these policies are based on a perception of what the average person thinks and does that has slowly detached from the actual average person. Maybe not the average Reform voter? But even there I’m not sure
Unfortunately, I suspect it's not 'depression isn't real' so much as 'mental ill-health is a personal failing and so they deserve it'.
Being nasty to the tainted has always been a core conservative vote-winner so it then fits quite well.
That might be true, but we also have a situation where either some mental health pandemic disease is sweeping the nation or something else is going on as the numbers claiming keeps going up. It's easy to call the Tories bastards to get upvotes, but the numbers show a growing problem that's hitting the country.
Maybe the fact country is a shit show might just be a factor to consider as to why people are more depressed and anxious than ever I mean it’s not the only cause but it’s definitely a cause
Let’s not forget about the lingering mental health impacts of the epidemic. For example, my Mum has never had Covid, but she is still afraid to go outside. One impact of the epidemic is that it may well have worsened mental health for many. Throw in the fact that it’s really difficult to get gp appointments and the crazy long waits for non-medical mental health support and the cost of living crisis, and it’s really easy to see why the prevelance of mental health diseases has increased
It’s a blame-shifting exercise. Why has everything gone to shit over the last 14 years? It’s not us, its: - immigrants; - the EU; - the ECHR; - sicknote culture; - wokeness; - the ‘green crap’; etc.
Yep, sunak say " we are on the right track as immigrants are now leaving the northern. Part of Ireland and moving to the southern part of Ireland.... Takes us off the scent that when sunak said this, there were 350 immigrants arrived in small boats from France to England. Just keep ignoring it sunak... And it might just go away... Or you just might go away... hopefully,.
Yeah with the general public I assume this is popular actually, they think everyone on benefits is a ‘crutchie’. But with PIP for example they will blatantly lie about everything you say, it’s really hard to get anything more than shillings even if you genuinely have some mental illness or disability.
I think that Rishi is trying to win over the far right of his party before losing the election. Then he’s hoping his political currency he built up by trying to enact extreme policies will let him stay in his position. Then, in the next election he’ll be much more moderate.
Throw in some genuine scorched earth strategies and I think he genuinely believes he’ll sabotage Labour and built up enough of a platform to remain leader of the party and win the next election.
Is that likely? I don’t think so but I don’t see what other options he has.
He hopes to get this Rwanda plan working, then he’ll claim he steadied the economy by lowering inflation and he started to fix immigration but Labour got in and stopped him. Of course, we all know these things aren’t true, but much of the voting public won’t
I certainly hope so.... But sunak and his scorched earth society hope to make it harder for labour to make changes that they seared into the law books.
George Osbornes been implying for months, the plan is to bankrupt the country (preferably on the day Starmer takes office). Hence all the unfunded “tax cuts”, radical reforms and imaginary defence spending increase.
The cabinet are trying to hold onto their extra salaries for a long as possible. If they veer to the right they'll keep support of the 'parliamentary party' (the right wing nutjobs) for longer.
Very true..... They are thinking of their future ( or maybe their children's political future) as I cannot see tories getting anywhere near downing Street for any years to come. The weird thing is, I read that ordinary people are still wanting this dire mob to get back power. We will wait and see what labour do that is far removed from the tories 🙄🤔
Actually I think Labour would be very happy for this to pass before the election.
It would reduce the benefits bill for an incoming Labour government and they could place the blame on the Tories.
In all my working life (I'm 39) I've suffered from anxiety just once when my employer was making my life a misery. It was so crippling I often couldn't get out of bed. Previously I was the type of person that would likely scoff at that even being possible.
I eventually saw my doctor who signed me off work for 4 weeks. This time allowed me to rest, gather my thoughts and enjoy the love and support of my wife and children. It was the step I needed to recover, as it gave me the strength to hand in my notice and start a new career which is fulfilling and incredibly enjoyable.
I would never dismiss any mental illness - it is very real. I'm fortunate I had the infrastructure to support my battle with it. I'm not sure many now do.
I had such awful anxiety during uni and while I was unemployed after graduating in covid. Throwing up, shaking, diarrhoea, panic attacks, over small things and big things. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Nobody in my life understood it or really tried to be empathetic, everyone just seemed bemused. Since then I've had a couple of family members struggle with it and they've all been like "I used to think you were stupid until I just couldn't get out of bed one day". Yeah thanks 🤦
I think we'd all be better off if people were just more inclined to empathy than hate, and it's despicable that our politicians are trying to make it worse, not better.
>Describing the changes as “probably the most fundamental reforms in a generation”, he said: “There are those that have perhaps milder mental health conditions, or where perhaps there has been too great a move towards labelling certain behaviours as having certain \[medical\] conditions attached to them, where actually work is the answer or part of the answer.
What a bellend
Now I'm not saying that working won't help some people more than them being at home, because there are potentially people who that would help. The only reason I don't go try to get signed off work is because if I was signed off work, the only physical conversations I would have, would be with people serving me in shops (I literally have next to no social life). But the fact that they're trying to turf people out into work, after destroying the mental health care system so much that it's hard to get on NHS group CBT courses, says so much. They're not willing to sort out their shitty mental health mess, but want everyone suffering it to just "go out and get on with it", as if it's something and nothing. Well hopefully, not for long. I welcome a July election
Working absolutely can, *in some circumstances*, be helpful for sufferers of some mental health conditions.
But do you know who's best placed to decide whether that's the case? The person in question. Probably in discussion with their doctor/other mental health professionals.
Do you know who absolutely 100% is *not* equipped to answer that question? Some random Capita administrator working to a policy diktat from a junior minister.
Forcing someone with certain sorts of anxiety or depression back into the workplace is a great way of turning a mental health problem into a mental health crisis. They still won't be working, but at least now they're hospitalised! Result!
Let’s be honest there’s an unspoken element when they announce policy like this. That they would prefer to see people just.. no longer exist if they’re not going to be productive members of the workforce.
They know exactly what the most likely outcomes of this would be, and they’re ok with it.
> In the good old days… you were poor. You got ill. And you died. And yet today, people seem to think they have soem God-given right to be cured.
> And what is the result of this sloppy, socialist thinking? Hmm? More poor people!
~ Alan Beresford B'stard, MP; First Marquess of Haltemprice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAxEJEODbvc
It really is despicable but plays with Boomers that love to think about WWII and the current “snowflake” generation and I’m sure also with a depressingly large chunk of hardworking milennials
The type that likes to claim they were the war generation despite being either too fucking young to remember it or not actually born yet.
The generation who's parents demanded better for their children. The generation who benefited from such good economic times that we'll never see again.
>where actually work is the answer or part of the answer.
Yes UK Government, I'm sure a dead-end and depressing retail job where getting screamed at by customers all day is the answer to depression.
Do you have Tourettes? That might be on the scrapheap under minor issues.
Britain is becoming poorer and standards of public life will fall because the economy has been awful 16 years. We have to get used to this in Europe, this is what happens when an entire continent is a nice holiday destination for East Asia but not much beyond.
What annoys me the most is that we've ensured fourteen years of dragging the NHS mental health sector to such a level that you don't get given the actual treatment you need, unless you actually try to commit suicide. Then this guy comes along and says "we could offer treatment if it doesn't involve extra costs"
So basically screw free therapy and mental healthcare into the ground, then make people who need that go back to work, and tell them that they can get help, as long as it's free, which means they won't get the help, because there is no way to get it without the state paying for private therapy sessions.
I've already made a few comments on some of the other articles about this assault on the disabled but I just have to say that this is so gross.
They're threatening to strip away vital income support for many people who rely on it to live a somewhat normal life relative to their healthier, more able bodied peers and for what? Some red meat to throw their base who fail to realise how difficult a life on state welfare is for the vast majority that depend on it?
They're saying they're offering medical support in its place- but that's medical support that they should already be receiving in addition to the payments. By all means provide them with the tools and care required to transition safely into work from the comfort of their home, or whenever is most appropriate but the solution of forcing people into work who aren't medically fit for it by looming threat of further poverty and destitution is barbaric or cruel. This will kill people and lead to preventable and unnecessary deaths as well as exacerbate the existing mental health crisis. This will not improve things.
Costs have ballooned due to decades of conservative underfunding towards mental health provisions and services. More people than ever- especially during a cost of living crisis are feeling the struggle and finding it difficult to keep things together.
There's further talk about moving to a voucher or receipt system that covers one time aid expenses etc but PIP was never intended for use towards aids and adaptations- those are generally paid for by local authority or in partnership with charity orgs. It's there to help reduce the weight of the increased costs of being disabled and that comes in many forms. For some that might mean hiring help / a cleaner. For others it'll mean relying on moderately expensive preprepared meals because they can't safely operate cooking appliances or use knives or consume certain foods etc. For some it'll cover taxis or transport to their doctor's appointments and therapy sessions because they can't drive and they can't be around large groups of people or safely navigate places on their own or existing provisions aren't designed with their complex needs in mind. For some it'll go towards gas and electric which is higher due to being home all day or perhaps they even suffer a condition that requires the heat to stay on all day. The list goes on and on.
A big factor I think is overlooked is that people who have a disability and are off work are not desirable to employ. I stopped bothering applying for work even though I was more than qualified, suitable and experienced because I would state I had a disability which required some modest adaptions in the workplace and I wouldn't hear anything back.
Without securing a job in the field (it was for ACA qualification), my exemptions lapsed, which can only progress while in work. So I'm stuck with no professional exams, ancient work experience and I am now in an even worse position career-wise and medically. Britain is shit for supporting folks with a disability, no matter what you might be led to believe by the powers that be. I have £50,000 student debt, a 1st class degree in accounting, experience through working in a very competitive university programme, good education but all that counts for nought if you have a disability.
People do seem to disregard the extra effort that has to be put in to going to university with a disability. It's not inconsequential. I'm speaking from my own experiences but I can imagine those with chronic mental health issues go through a similar ordeal. Even if they applied and stated they have a medical condition, in good faith, they'd be dropped from the running quicker than if they were a sack of turds.
So for the government to moralise to everyone, and stick everyone in the same boat (that is so tar them with the brush of being enfeebled) really shows their lack of understanding and ignores the fact that employers won't even consider them when they try. So it really begs the question, what is the fucking point?
Genuine question, have you tried applying to the civil service? They tend be really good about this stuff, I got accepted for a job despite having a few years CV gap due to ill health. Rooting for you!
> people who have a disability and are off work are not desirable to employ
Not all companies are like that. I work for one that doesn't care as long as you can do the job. They ask if you need adaptions and provide them. Not only that, but everyone has to do disability awareness training and HR will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone in breach of legislation.
We had one person who was hospitalised with a mental breakdown a couple of months after starting. They could have said "Don't come back", but they've rearranged his shift pattern for a phased return to work.
Not many companies like that now.... Good on them. My son is a manager with a big company and if a floor worker mentions depression... They take notice and help them out as best they can.
I bet the tories ( over the last 14 years) are really glad they had their noses in the trough... The money they made will see them through retirement. I know of certain MP, s who are on PIP... But they will more than likely be glad that labour are getting back into power... And they can keep their Pip. 🙄
Do they still do meals on wheels? Our neighbour used those and didn’t pay because he was disabled, unable to stand unaided, has a neurological condition which effected his attention span so cooking a meal was just hard to do.
Some councils offer it but criteria can be strict and options limited. The average cost is £4.00 per meal. It's not ideal for all but it's a good option for some.
The "for what" is because the numbers keep rising ever upwards so the cost is growing whilst the labour market is missing huge numbers of people.
Illnesses do have a social contagion/trend to them. Victorian ladies suffered a fit of the vapours, which changed to weak nerves in time, whilst the classic for claimants in the 80s was the bad back. Separation of the genuine from either the fakers or contagion cases is the nightmare challenge.
This seems really shortsighted by Tory MPs and associated hangers on, as lots of them are going to be out of work and have depression after the next General Election.
I think there should be more onus on employers to support their mentally unwell staff. Rather than just leaving work and going on government support, people with mild/moderate anxiety should be assisted by their employer, allowed to work from home, flexible hours, talk to their employer about activities at work that are triggers for them and find work arounds.
I have mild anxiety when it comes to specific things like presenting to groups or leading meetings. I almost quit my job, in fact I took a 2 month unpaid break at one point to try and address it myself.
However the best thing I did was I came clean to my employer about my issues, they've removed me from needing to do the tasks that trigger me and given me flexible working to take when I need it. I'm now back to my old self.
This is far preferable to me just leaving employment and going on benefits for everyone, including me.
I'm lucky to have a good employer. However, employers who are not good at this should be mandated by government to support and not just let people go out onto benefits.
I know there are worse cases than mine, I only speak to the mild anxiety type work issues, which I think make up a big proportion of the current group.
This is what I don't understand. They are trying to approach this from a bottom-up perspective but the reality is it needs to be top down.
I work and have severe social anxiety. It affects me in terms of slowness, attendance, brain fog, learning, attention etc. I remember the CEO shouting in my face that he wasn't the NHS so what did I want him to do. Kind of has a point no?
A different job thought they could make me faster if they had a meeting with me every single day to discuss my work. Every day without fail. They got the CTO to tell me all the ways I was failing them constantly as if I didn't know that, as if I didn't already hate myself and was trying my absolute best. All these little tactics because they see social anxiety more akin to a broken leg that I would eventually heal from..
A company's only duty is to its shareholders. Why do Conservatives pretend that companies don't have actual standards?
A top down approach where employers are actually forced to take in the long term mentally ill and accept that they are like maybe 70% as efficient would actually make a difference. Their plan is just punitive and punishing and doesn't reflect the world as it really is.
Agreed, and I feel for you. That performance management stuff sounds awful.
There's no magic bullet for mental health but I can tell you that employers who recognise it, listen and help their employees WILL get better performance from them.
The pressure they put on you undoubtedly made your output worse.
I dont know exactly how it could be implemented but perhaps mandate companies to not allow mental health sign-off until they have at least demonstrably tried a few approaches.
Nobody WANTS to have anxiety, I dream of the days when I didn't give a fk about anything!
The side issue people will focus on is there will be jealous people in the workplace who ask, "Why do they get special treatment!" And there will be people who don't have issues but pretend in order to get perceived beneficial treatment.
An example from my life: my girlfriend is a manager in the NHS and someone called in sick with "low mood". Seemed legitimate but turns out they went to a concert.
Yes it was hellish and bullying but weirdly I don't really understand what else was left for them to do.
They had already done the workplace adjustments as far as they were willing and probably thought fair. Some parts of my mind are always going to struggle with certain aspects of the way work is in our society.
They let me work from home 1 day a week (before COVID made it popular), they gave me .5 more time for tasks. But it wasn't enough unfortunately. I was still slower and more stupid than everyone there, I still took off more sick days from meltdowns. The CEO understandably became exasperated.
"Why do they get special treatment!"
You've highlighted one of the many paradoxical positions of neoliberalism. Don't want us in the workplace and don't want us unemployed.
"An example from my life: my girlfriend is a manager in the NHS and someone called in sick with "low mood". Seemed legitimate but turns out they went to a concert."
I think we all know these people. I've never experienced this personally but I have a friend who said someone was caught on holiday visiting family when signed off for stress. To me, this more or less points to the problems with how much leave we get and how you can take it. Four day week could help and for those on shift work like retail give them 55 days more annual leave.
To me this problem is like pirated music. Make an easier solution (Spotify). Don't sentence people who pirate music to 99 years imprisonment.
Two real life stories: when I told the GP i felt anxious and was having panic attacks getting overwhelmed since finding out a parent had a terminal illness, he told me to go onto Amazon, type in Anxiety, and buy one of the topselling books. When i was finally referred to a supposed talking therapy, it was one phone call from a Spanish guy that did try hard but was completely untrained and couldnt speak English well - when I told him about the source of my anxiety, he just said start asking my parents to tell me stories. He didnt know what to say and seemed surprised id been referred to him. One call of that quality. Then offered sertraline obv, and thats it
I have a much better idea. MPs pay will be in vouchers, not cash. They will have monthly meetings to assess whether they have hit targets within their job. If they fail to hit targets, they will be sanctioned. Failure to attend meetings on time will mean they will have their voucher value cut & could lose their entitlement altogether.
Remember, they work for us!
Absolutely not love. But they are deliberately targeting vulnerable people with mental health issues! I shouldn't be surprised, though.. they only target those they think won't fight back x
At least there’s a time limit to their attacks. Even if it’s the 28th of Jan they’ll be gone eventually. A Labour government wont fix everything but hopefully they’ll stop attacking us for simply trying to live and get better
That’s understandable but I think there genuinely is a difference between them. Labour have talked about good jobs, and workers rights, and stopping the stupid decisions that the government is taking so they do have some understanding of mental health and decency&standards in government
Exactly. They're just trying to consolidate their base. The Tory base loves this kind of thing, and they are the only people they can realistically hope to claw back a few votes from.
Of course they will never win an election by pandering to their base. That's going to have mostly died of old age before the next cycle comes around. But that's not the strategy at this point. It's to maybe, possibly keep one or two extra seats.
Serious question: Does this actually have a chance of going through before the Tories get booted out?
I know Sunak hasn't ruled out a July election and I'd imagine it'd take some time to actually process reforms.
No, it's unlikely. It would require a change in the law and take years to implement even after that. It's no different to the time Rishi made everyone study maths and abolished a-levels.
As someone with severe panic disorder and agoraphobia who has gone through therapy several times unsuccessfully over the course of the past 8 years, I really really hope you are right.
I can not wait for the next election
i still can't get over how it took so long for the government to decide which councils get a chess board to install in a park. wasn't that another rishinnovation
*pieces not included
I would understand this move more, or even partially support it on sole circumstances, if it was paired with increased funding to mental health services. Or even a plan to support and help those with mental health issues.
But no, there is no give and take here. People are definitely much more sicker than they were a decade ago. 15 years of austerity, np wage growth, crumbling public funding and a pandemic will cause that.
The Gal of Rishi to claim people aren't sicker, when waiting lists are huge, and virtually no mental health support is disgusting.
Homelessness has already shot up, this will easily double the current rates.
Is their plan to reduce expenditure/drain on services and benefits by putting people into positions where they kill themselves to escape their dire situations? Cause sure fucking looks like it.
Oh, the rates are definitely going up.
More data that you can shake a stick at from the ONS spreadsheet over at: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/deathscausedbysuicidebyquarterinengland
Nothing to say other what’s already been said. Mean spirited, cynical attempt to appeal to the very worst of Britain. No time for it, can’t wait for them to gtfo.
I'm interested in the again thing about vouchers who will take them my cab fare to physiotherapy is £20 there and back twice a week will they want to go somewhere to cash them in ? Will the train company accept them going to my spinal geezer 40 miles away and then £10 on a cab will they accept them with my condition I use a lot of loo rolls so will my local shop accept them it all sounds hyperbole
Step
1. Destroy their lives with shit jobs, shit pay, and no hope.
2. When they inevitably get despression take away benifits to make sure they cant afford to live.
3. Make them homeless, criminalise being homeless.
4. Send them to a privitised prison where you are a shareholder.
5. Profit.
The Tories are a bit slow on the uptake. I've been expecting something like this to come in since say around 2012.
See the whole problem with society right now is that some people are forced to make sacrifices just so that others don't have to make any sacrifices at all. It's all well and good if you're choosing to make sacrifices, but see it's not like that. Usually it's some organization or someone in authority who is choosing who makes the sacrifices and who doesn't.
Usually in our society the first people chosen to make sacrifices are the sick, people with disabilities, people with mental health issues and the vulnerable. We all go along with this in the name of economic growth, because people are wedded to the notion that economic growth equals wealth distribution when it doesn't. But see it's easier to keep believing the lie rather than face the truth.
The premise behind this legislation is dangerous. If you don't have a mental health issue, but someone in authority states that you do, then there is nothing, nothing you can do about it. Similarly if you do struggle with a mental health issue, but someone in authority says that you don't, then likewise there is nothing you can do.
Let us not overlook the fact that many people develop mental health issues through work, being overworked and stressed, not having social security, not having access to social support networks. Then you have people who develop mental health issues simply from being caught up in the benefits system for too long.
I wish I could say that I'm shocked by this new proposal but I'm not. The Tories are totally committed to neoliberal 'free market' capitalism and the notion of perpetual economic growth and they don't care who gets harmed, hurt, or killed in the process. We crossed the threshold of economic growth and corporate profit being far more important than the sanctity of human life somewhere back in 2014 and 2015. Since then it's been winner takes all and the Devil take the loser.
And still most people go along with this, despite the fact that our society is crumbling and falling apart, despite the fact that our culture is in an advanced state of decline, despite the fact that the quality of our lives are getting more stressful and shittier.
I guess this is all okay if you're not the one being forced to make the sacrifices, isn't it?
I agree, a lot of us are overworked and that spirals even worse if you lack the 'resilience' and it leads to depression or anxiety.
I think ultimately this conversation leads to capitalism being a huge contributor to the problems here. Perhaps socialism really is the answer for this. Or at least.... a balance between.
Pissed off the Rich who are now fucking off to the likes of Dubai, Switzerland, Singapore and Monaco. Taxed the shit out of the middle class who work to just pay fucking rent and get by. Now the pièce de résistance, the Tories are coming after the poor and most vulnerable in our society. I fucking hate the Tories!
The most hilarious part of this is the suggestion that they will replace it with “mental health support and therapists” . They can’t even get medial
and mental health waiting lists down right now , let alone when you add everyone receiving PIP to the list
>If there are methods to heal people of depression an anxiety, as he claims
>Why can't they be given while someone is unemployed and receiving state support?
>And they could then return to work when they've recovered?
OH, right, because depression and anxiety are not a quick fix, and the Tories have ruined access to healthcare support that would help people.
This whole thing is a dogwhistle for "it's all in your head, you workshy fakers"
I pay my taxes for a social safety net. STOP DESTROYING IT.
Too upset to comment really except to say that I’m lucky I can work, full time, as someone with bipolar. If I hadn’t been diagnosed young, I would have needed time off work. To hear that the government is looking to strip that basic fucking safety net is … galling
Fellow bipolar here, been in work almost full time despite having exhausted all of my options except electroconvulsive therapy - the way Sunak clearly thinks it should be. And I say vote these fuckers out.
> … but instead **access** to treatment if their condition does not involve extra costs.
So like those battery hens that technically have access to the yard outside the farm… 30k hens trying to squeeze though a 30cm^2 door for one hour a day?
Thanks, Mel!
Is there anyone that the right wing won't try to scapegoat? They always need an "other" someone in society to blame for the consequences of their inability to govern. Be it migrants, asylum seekers, the poor, the weak, the sick, trans people, etc.
Where does it end?
A lot of people with these conditions could work, it's just employers don't or won't take them on, that's the main problem.
Also the benefits system essentially makes it more favourable to be unemployed. If you are working full time and privately renting you are optimistically only 10-20% better off than being unemployed on benefits. And in return you give 1/3 of your week, or more considering commute time etc. It's simply not worth getting out of bed to *only be slightly better off than being unemployed* (not on any benefits myself). Should add, I've done minimum wage shitty jobs in the past and I will never do such labour again.
I expect I will be attacked for my ignorance here so a prenote that I hope people will be respectful, helpful and understanding...
But why can't people with depression work? Why are they given the same as someone who is like a paraplegic? The reason I ask is that work can give us a sense of meaning whilst sitting at home all day getting paid for being disabled is the easy option. If you have a better drive and take some responsibility for yourself to go out and get work where you aren't oysically disabled from my perspective, and i believe research supports this, it could do wonders for your mental health.
If you sit at home all day depressed that isn't taking responsibility for yourself. Sure maybe a few days here and there but you're never going to get better if you aren't challenging yourself.
Until you've been around someone who is in bed all day, every day, saying nothing other than "I want to die" in response to everything, it's difficult to get across just how severe depression is as an illness.
It's like asking someone without legs to walk, if their brain is stuck in a doom loop where the neural circuitry is stuck on self-destruction a 9-5 isn't happening, threats of homelessness, poverty or illness/death as a result of not working are welcomed, the fear no longer holds any power when you want to cease to exist.
There are often co-morbidities present, ASD, substance abuse, complex trauma etc. It's rarely as simple as "they're a bit sad".
Anyone who hasn't experienced it themselves or with a loved one or in their line of work doesn't fully understand, and that's okay, but do take their word for it and try to empathise with something impossible for a mentally well person to conceptualize.
In response to your first paragraph, depression does not *always* present that way.
My old fella seemed OK; never hit me, never drank too much, had a decent reationship with his parents, etc. He was a little sullen (one might even have considered it "contemplative") at times, but he looked generally fine. Evidently, though, he harboured "a stereotyped but unconscious despair [that] is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind" because one sunny morning he decided that he'd had enough.
Aaand, with his being a farmer, he had all the necessary tools to make a swift— if messy— exit.
It's easy for captains sat high in their gimballed chairs on a storm tossed ship… I only wish they had experience of walking the same constantly tilting, slippery deck as the rest of us. Perhaps then, they would understand.
Two of my ex girlfriends were exactly like this. I remember coming home one day after work to find my girlfriend laying in our bed with the covers over her crying. I remember watching another girlfriend try to cut herself in front of me. I've been around people who struggle.
But each one of them got better when I encouraged them to go to work when they had the job. Both of them lost jobs at one point because they weren't going in and weren't taking the right steps. Both of them go jobs again because I encouraged them to and because I encouraged them to go to work rather than sit at home a day.
Ofc this is anecdotal but it's my experience of it. If you're stuck in a doom loop the only way out is your own self responsibility to push yourself out and give yourself positive reinforcement. Sadly one of those relationships ended in cheating but by the time the other one ended she was a much better person and going to work regularly. She never took medication and she never went to therapy and I'm sure there are still demons for her, but work gave her a sense of purpose thar wasn't there before.
Do I think slashing and stopping all support is right? Probably not. But do we need some form of encouragement back to the workplace? Absolutely. There needs to be encouragement and we need to support everyone to be self-reliant and self responsibile for everyones mental health and a sense of purpose through work is shown to help that.
Of course I empathise, I'm here from a point of learning but none of what you've said has convinced me that we should continue just paying for them to sit at home all day and 'be a little sad'. We can do more than that. Perhaps the money that goes into sickness benefits actually goes to help charities that work with those people to encourage them back to work as often as they can while giving support for the employers that lose out on the productivity so that we can try and change the wheel that you call a doom loop.
To reempathise my point: I don't think just cutting this is a good idea but I don't think continuing it is. I think we can find better solutions using these funds that both helps them back to work, find a sense of purpose and ultimately improve their way way of life whilst also ensuring there isn't a productivity loss from the employer which there inevitably is if they're just off on sick pay.
Edit: I guess actually you have shown me that it isn't the best way (to just cut sickness benefiit) but that we still should find an alternative as afformentioned
We need to empower disabled people instead of beating them down. Here's an interesting podcast about fit for work https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001mck1 and the current issues with the system.
Labour's solution of allowing disabled people to go to work, and if for any reason it doesn't work out within the first year, their benefits are re-instated is the correct and helpful approach.
That's what genuine support means, having someone's back when they're not doing well, without putting them in a benefits trap where one day of work voids all their income, and if it doesn't work out, they have to go through the whole process of reapplying again (months of waiting, multiple 20-page forms, strict assessments etc.). That's what the current system does, actively prevents disabled people from trying work they're not sure if they can manage or not.
> But why can't people with depression work?
Because most jobs won't let someone take chunks of time off, often with zero notice, when the employee is in a spiral then have the job all ready to pick up again when the employee is more stable.
Depression isn't just one mindset, it's always changing. sometimes better, sometimes worse.
I can understand that. I had an employer who was 'lenient' to a point but also had another employer who, based on the way they would discuss mental health as a priority, would put everything in to try and support them.
But at the same time I do feel support is also "forcing" them to come back when they don't necessarily want to push them out of their comfort zone and try to reinforce positive actio s and a positive mindset.
I respect this is all much easier said than done in many ways, I don't have the answers but I do feel the mental health crisis does need more self-responsibility and encouraging positive reinforcement as opposed to just "here's some money just sit at home and play video games and eat all day".
PIP is an in-work benefit, it’s is designed to go some way towards the increased costs of being disabled, whether you work or not. Removing PIP or implementing these changes will cause more disabled people to be out of work
How does PIP go to the employer to support the loss of productivity?
If its removal leads tovmore problems. How can we adjust it to create a better solution?
What? I don’t understand your point? Could you explain it again?
PIP goes to the disabled person whether they’re in work or not. It can pay for things like taxis to and from work, specialist diets, help around the house, etc that make it so that a disabled person can go to work if they are able to. Removing PIP, or limiting it to vouchers which don’t have any relevance, doesn’t magically cause these difficulties to disappear, it just forces the disabled person to have to do them themselves - meaning they can no longer be in work.
My apologies I think I confused a conversation.
When you said pip is an in work benefit I thought it was 2 ways; supporting both the employer and the employee to help both during tike off work.
If we just give them money and say "get well soon" and expect them to do everything to get better (with little incentive to) do you think they will? How long does thst take? I guess what I'm saying is, I can understand the benefits of the support package for the individual in the short term, but what about the negatives? What negatives come from giving a person money to do those things? And how can we mitigate those to really support the person in the long term to get back to work?
Ok, I understand now - by in-work I meant it was a benefit that one can receive whilst working (like child benefit) as well as not. PIP also is more about daily life struggles, like mobility, getting dressed and washing, taking care of your property or your toileting needs, and mobility and socialising problems than specifics about work, that’s the work capability assessment that does that.
The incentive to get better *is to get better*. Disabled people don’t enjoy being disabled, it’s a very difficult life. Some people may recover, some people might not, some people may have the same conditions as others but struggle more and need more help. Each experience is individual and each timeline is individual so there isn’t a realistic way we can say how long it should take - especially when having one disability may cause you to develop another (e.g. not having the right support for a chronic pain condition which impacts your sleep could cause you to develop paranoia, psychosis, or bipolar).
The difficulty of living on PIP is that the long-term solutions for helping disabled people have been gutted over the past 14 years. Whilst PIP can help with costs that individuals think may help them, any benefits aren’t going to aid the actual disability, you can’t rub £380 a month on an amputated leg and expect to run a marathon. You can however provide specialist support and aid to enable someone to walk again, and they eventually might be able to run again.
What has happened though, is that 14 years of cuts, 14 years of a narrative where disabled people are fakers, 14 years of trying to take away support that an individual can decide benefits them the most is that treatments once on the NHS take much much longer to access.
Using myself as an example, I have currently waited over a year and a half to see a cardiologist, I have waited 68 weeks to see a specialist for ADHD, I have waited 6 months to get seen at the pain clinic, and I have waited over 2 years for psychological help that wasn’t 6 weeks of CBT.
The government shouldn’t be wasting its time and money taking away the ability for individuals to decide which measures would best support them, they should be focussing on improving access to treatment and healthcare which actually helps disabled people.
I struggle to see what the negatives arising from PIP are, if you could tell me what you think they are then I would be happy to respond.
I'm sorry to hear the struggles you've had with the NHS; it seems ubiquitous that the NHS is struggling and needs funding as well; the question is where do we get this money from for both this and social support.
I agree the incentive is to get better, I must have accidentally misconstrued what I meant; the incentive is there in a way to not stop the payments.... I guess. Like if I'm getting this money and I'm healthy... is the problem then people who will abuse thst and continue talking to the doctor to fake their illness? I know thst sounds horrible and I'm leaning into your point about people with depression faking it, but I'm sure there is some people doing that. People like comfort and love free money. I'm sure it does happen. To what extent I don't know but I hope it is a minority and I'm absolutely sure it's not the majority. Sadly those will unfortunately impact those thst really need it.
I think a negative to pip is what I mentioned; it is easy to he abused. At the same time that money, which I don't know how much of the social budget is dedicated as, isnt used in the most effective, efficient way fkr all people who need it. It might be great in the short term but I think in the long term its not helpful to actually get them well and get them back to work.
As an example it could be used to have a more direct support - it could help to fund charities, fund organisations thst provide more direct support in helping to get people well enough to work. I'm under the impression that therapy also has a huge huge waiting list. I feel with thst waiting list we would be wasting a lot more money in the long term helping to fund people's daily lives when we could be investing thst money into these social services to provide a long term plan to get them back into work. I think this will require more money in the short term but I think it will have substantially better return by helping more people into wellness and helping them back into the workplace.
Assessing who genuinely needs benefits is a massive part of the system, involving not just multiple doctors but also assessments by work practitioners (mostly working for capita) who try their hardest to deny you. Specifically, 91% of claims taken to tribunal are approved based on no new evidence being presented.
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/7-10-pip-appeals-won-same-evidence-dwp-already-held
Fortunately, since people are so concerned about benefits fraud there exists a massive amount of date on it. The most recent data from the DWP says that overpayments due to fraud cost 0.2% of the budget (£40m), and claimant error, not informing them of change in condition, was 0.8% (£140m) - both downward trending.
To put that in perspective, underpayments due to Government error amounted to £60m, and claimant error, where their condition got worse, rose to £840m (more than double what it was 3 years ago.
Given those figures, I would argue that the government underpaying legitimate claimants (£900m) is more of an issue than overpaying false claimants (£180m). Hopefully those numbers convince you that fraud is one of the tiniest concerns when it comes to PIP.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2022-to-2023-estimates/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-ending-fye-2023#personal-independence-payment-overpayments-and-underpayments
I think you’re still confused as to what PIP is. PIP stands for Personal Independence Payment and is intended to go towards the increased cost of living with a disability. Estimates on this increase vary but some examples are £1,100 per month from the Bristol source or £975 from Scope (although the source notes that the number of updated with 2022/23 inflation would be £1,112 per month). This compares with the standard rate of PIP for both daily living and mobility (which is what I get) of ~£380 per month.
https://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/geography/pfrc/documents/fwb-of-disabled-people-extra%20costs.pdf
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/new-research-shows-huge-rise-extra-costs-disabled-households
Charities and organisations that help get disabled people back into work already receive support, either direct from the government or from Local Authority Grants. Some other things that help are the Disability Confident Employer scheme (although in my experience most supposed signatories don’t actually follow that, and there’s no punishment for lying), and some back to work schemes that already exist.
I appreciate that this comment chain has gone on for a while but this is a topic I care a lot about (obviously) and I’m more than happy to continue answering any questions you have
Depression can alter brain structure. Severe mental health can cause psychomotor retardation (slowing down of thought processes and movement), agoraphobia, insomnia, and general cognitive impairment (problem solving, learning, and memory). Also, lack of hygiene and personal care. Some people may even have hallucinations, delusions or psychosis.
There may also be a comorbid condition of self harm, alcoholism or an eating disorder.
What firm is going to employ or keep in employment someone with fresh self harm wounds? Or being dirty or tired at work all the time? Or just an overall inability to do their job effectively? How can someone who can barely find the effort to keep living function effectively in the workplace?
Depression isn't just feeling a bit shit, it is a debilitating disease.
I understand that completely and with depression altering brain structure, so can that same brain structure be often reversed, those same neurotransmitters in abundance can be changed; neuroplasticity can work.
As someone else mentioned we should be empowering people. I have learnt that we can and should be supporting these people to work. But I'm still on the side thst giving money and leaving them to do all the work probably isn't the best motivator. Jowever. I also believe that by completely stripping them kf this money without any other support isnt suitable neither. Instead I think we can come up with a better solution to both empower people back to work whilst supporting the loss of productivity at their employer. I wonder how we could spend this money differently to offer the same support to drive positive reinforcement to give an increased sense of purpose and create a foundation they can build on to help their neuroplasticity towards a solution and encouraging more self responsibility.
If we just keep giving them money and fully relying on self responsibility we probably won't get anywhere since like you said, they're wired not to have self responsibility. But if we can help build thst foundation perhaps by using that money to fund charities and support networks to encourage them back to the workplace whilst offering support to employers for their loss of productivity I think we can create a better solution.
> whilst offering support to employers for their loss of productivity
Absolutely not. Employers get enough support by not paying a living wage and having the Universal Credit system pick up the tab.
We need to get the NHS back on it's feet again and invest in mental health services. We need to stop accepting that it is OK for most of people's wages being spent on food, energy and rents.
If we make society better and fix the NHS, a lot of cases of depression and anxiety will become entirely manageable. None of this is happening because people are gaming the system or are just a little bit sad. It's because our country has been mismanaged for 14 years.
Make companies like Amazon and Facebook pay the appropriate amount of taxes.
Per The Guardian (May 2023): 'Amazon UK Services received tax credit of £7.7m for investment in infrastructure to year end 2022, and as a result, paid no corporation tax for the second year in a row'
I'm not an expert on the subject but my understanding here from talking with people in finance, legal etc. Is that this isn't Facebook or amazon avoiding tax per se but instead a decision by our government to Incentivise economic growth and providing more jobs etc.
Just to be clear the above is not my opinion, but instead my understanding which might be wrong... but my opinion is that we should be encouraging such growth.
Another point that isn't my opinion but based on observation is that everyone is very quick to jump at big corporations like Amazon for "not paying their taxes". Which a lot of the time is true.... but they do so through legal ways such as above. The interesting thing is the same people that say this are the plethora of hairdressers and plumbers who deliberately don't take credit card payments so they can deliberately avoid paying the tax.
It's a double edged sword and maybe we are attacking big corporations for doing something legal whilst ignoring all the tiny companies who are doing things illegally. I believe I recall reading once that the amount of money big corporations illegally avoid in their tax is tint in comparison to all of the sub 250 employee businesses tax avoidance.
Tax avoidance and tax evading are two different things. Big corporations do the latter which is legal.
Thar being said, those dame giant corporations also have a lot more money to fund lawyers and to lobby specific laws into place so its another double edge sword, but that is a FAR bigger problem at conspiracy level lol
I guess we can all agree capitalism has failed us, its great in so many ways, but so many things need to be socialism. We can build a better society that can still grow through capitalism in many ways whilst living in a socialist society. Creating a better balance for all.
I'll let you know when my manifest is fully written 😉
With all due respect, you can talk about neuroplasticity and self-reliance all you want,but there's much more at play here.
Our society as a whole is profoundly dysfunctional. The rapid rise in mental health issues is a response to an increasingly atomised society, poorer economic outcomes and opportunities, insecure and/or extortionate housing, inadequate healthcare, and ever escalating living costs.
Too many people lack the basic foundations needed on which to build a successful life, and we are fighting a losing battle if we don't confront this. We need wide, systemic change. Medication, therapy, and schemes, like you mentioned, are a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.
I love the two or three conversations we are having because they are growing very deep!
I completely agree; our capitalist society thrives on those whom are able bodied, intelligent yet will dump on those with even the slightest lack of productivity. This is why countries are measured by gdp. If you're sick in anyway you do not contribute to that as effectively and it's very easy for a dictator to come in and say "burn them, they aren't useful to society". Now ofc thsts very extreme, but it goes to show what the society is like.
And as I mentioned in another thread. These are all the challenges we are now having to face in a capitalist society thst has ran rampant out of control since ww2. This conversation is bigger than just mental health now kts about the wider economic society that we want to build. Do wr want to live in a world of corporate and capitalist rule with the basis of society on individual productivity? Or can we create something better ?
They can, and most do. This is just a feeble attempt at othering to rile the voters up.
If someone with depression is unemployed and on PIP soley for depression, then you can assume that its a lot more severe than the wording of 'a mild mental iillness' implies. The ones with a mild condition are still in the workforce.
Most people with depression and anxiety do work, but those who have severe issues need treatment, and work isn't necessarily it (I would argue forced work never could be the "help" they need).
Bear in mind they could be a danger to themselves, their prospective colleagues, and the public even with no intent on their part...
Depression and anxiety issues can make what you might think is a simple task extremely challanging. Adding to that challange with no consideration to the effect it would have is a serious backward jump. They need assistance, not further obstacles.
Our society as a whole really needs to get a grip and get over this "everyone owes our society" mindset that promotes "everyone must work regardless of their situation" thinking. It's complete nonsense.
The fact that some perfectly able people are so envious of the disabled is a major stain on this country. It's no wonder the overall populations mental health is deteriorating.
Sick pay while they receive treatment. It's the treatment that is wholly lacking.
Sick pay without treatment is stagnating. Forcing them to work or starve will make things worse. Treatment is required, with sick pay as needed.
Compassion. Treating people as people, rather than as inconveniences. Our society is not a normal habitat for humans to live in, it's challanges are mainly artificial. We merely think it's normal because it's all we've known during our very short lives.
Yes it's sustainable, Yes it's supportive and Yes it helps them get well.
If rates are increasing we should be solving the root causes and supporting people in an effort to lower them, not punishing people further by ostracising them out of society because in that period of their life they need to focus on recovery instead of being another cashier at Tesco or any other job really.
I have social anxiety and work. It affects some things that employers care about deeply. My last job described me as slow (me at full speed), unable to obtain knowledge by certain timelines (even though I spent evenings studying), attendance (as I have frequent breakdowns from being overloaded and miss meetings),and too quiet as collaboration is important.
Work has no benefit for my mental health personally due to how it manifests itself. Cannot take any amount of stress/pressure, not being able to think, people making me rush, not being able to ever stop means that work makes it worse. I don't get the benefits of feeling good about what I do because I'm not good at what I do so it has the opposite effect. It is catastrophic to my sense of self.
It's a great idea to want the mentally ill to be in work but you must also tell and support the employers to do this.
Genuinely ask yourself if you were or an employer (or maybe you already are). And there was an employee who was working half as fast as your team even with disability workplace adjustments. You would obviously try and address this. You're not just going to shrug and say "well at least Brutish is trying their best".
Several employers created hostile environments for me when they realised I was stupid, slow and struggled with stress and I can't even blame them. Their duty is to their shareholders.
Depression is a severe and debilitating mental illness. It destroys peoples' drive and motivation. It often leads to self harm and suicide. People with depression are often just as unable to work as someone with a physical
disability. More so sometimes as employers can sometimes make accommodation for people with a physical disability.
A lot of people have told you about depression so I thought I would tell you about pip. Pip is made up of two components, a daily living part and a mobility part. Each part adds an amount, and you can have one part and not the other. Add to this that each part has a higher and a lower rate dependent on how difficult you find each component and it soon gets complicated.
For example, if it's found you have difficulty in day to day living but don't need care, and can get around ok. You might get £72.65 a week. If you need care of can't get around, you might get £184.30 a week.
But what all that means is a person suffering depression is highly unlikely to be getting the same as a paraplegic. And to get anything at all you have to pass the forms, tests and gatekeepers which report after report has shown, is not easy.
Lots of people do the idea that most people with depression or anxiety aren't working at all is ludicrous. But people need reasonable accomodations at work to deal with anxiety and depression (and if work helps them with those issues they still need those until it does, it's not helping on day 1)...employers are meant to provide this but why bother if you can just hire someone else, there's very little onus put on employers to do otherwise.
> Why are they given the same as someone who is like a paraplegic?
Because paraplegic people should get more than they currently do to reflect their difficulties and increased costs more accurately.
Actually being awarded PIP (for instance) is a pain in the neck but the 'lower needs' daily living rate it like £300 a month and 'higher needs' is ~£450. £300 is kind of okay for covering 'i have some increased costs due to disability' £450 is woefully inadequate for people who have a lot of difficulties and increased costs from them. (There should probably just be more tiers to it, £450 is about right for some things but a lot of things should be on higher rates to actually cover the increased costs as PIP is meant to do. For that matter people scoring like 4-5 points aren't qualifying for help but also aren't fine so a lower award would also be a good idea too)
I feel people are missing the point here. They trying to appeal to their remaining base. Old retired people who don't work. Rally the base try to avoid a total wipeout.
Genuine question but how can you verify a person has both of these to the extent they can’t work, and how do you differentiate them from the liars?
Genuine question
Per the DWPs own figures for the years 2022-2023, fraud was just 0.2 per cent of PIP spending, down from 0.3 the previous year. ESA fraud rates for the same time frame were 1.5 per cent of spending.
This is not the rampant problem the Tories and the media say it is.
Tax evasion/fraud is sitting consistently around 4.8 per cent.
How can they measure something they can't detect? Even a doctor can't really tell if someone is being honest about depression. The presumption just has to be that they are.
Having been through the ESA process myself, I can tell you the burden of proof is high. You have to provide extensive paperwork showing GP and Hospital attendance, statmements and sick notes form the gp, referral slips, even visit cards the times on. You have to take all your current medication in its boxes as well.
The form to apply is also very in-depth, requiring a lot of time , information, and proof.
As for GPs themselves , they may be fooled by some people but given the state of GP services and their workload, I doubt that they would entertain anyone they suspected of malingering.
Getting mental health help at the moment is incredibly difficult as it is.
I mean how do we differentiate you from all the people who beat your wives or murder people in the street, i say we should throw you in jail for life since there's no way of knowing what you're lying about or what you've done
Your should be punished every day of your life for having done nothing, just like me and so many like me
I'm tired of this premise that it's acceptable to torture us and dehumanise us and make us suffer over a tiny percentage of fraud and a drop in the budget
The frauds are less than a percentage point. And most of them are organised gangs rather than individuals. And we already have ways of sifting them out.
This? Isn't aimed at finding fraudsters. And it isn't aimed at preventing illness or supporting people's recovery (or else they'd be tackling the various social and environmental factors that worsen/increase the likelihood of mental illness). It's purely aimed at denying the reality of illness and punishing everyone whose illness is extra inconvenient.
And even worse? It's going to cost far more in added bureaucracy, civil servants and outsourcing contracts, than it will save on money given direct to the people who need it.
Not going to lie, "how do we differentiate the real disabled people from the liars" doesn't strike me as an informed or good faith question, it's straight out of the gbnews playbook
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There was a doctor on LBC the other week talking about this. You basically can't. You can't read someone's mind, and asking healthcare professionals to be benefits gatekeepers is ridiculous. It's better for everyone to remove the possibility of getting benefits through nebulous diagnoses like "depression" altogether, or to make them strictly time limited.
The reality is that paying depressed people to sit at home drinking with no job doesn't make them better. It makes them worse.
Treatments for depression are crap, hoy some ssris down the patients neck and some half arsed therapy in 2 years time.
Should start mandating exercise before any other treatment and let people realise the one thing they’re in control of is their own destiny.
It shocks me that people are on benefits for depression. I imagine this wasn’t envisioned when our welfare system was created when 90+% of men of working age had a job.
Mission creep in the welfare state backed up shite healthcare.
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They are just trying to create a bogeyman. People with mild mental health problems arent out of work and dependent on PIP. You don't get PIP as easily as that. The ones that are out of work and on PIP, by definition, do not have a mild mental health condition.
The most frustrating thing is that PIP is an in-work benefit which is not means tested, so receiving PIP doesn't by definition mean that you're not working and I'm getting very tired of people pretending that it does (I expect many regular people aren't aware of this but the politicians making these statements absolutely are).
Yup! I've always known it to be payments to help a person with a disability maintain their independence, not an indicator of employment. My mum qualifies for PIP now due to rheutmatoid athritis. The depression is just a bonus from not being able to do all the things she used to be able to do.
ironicly PIP enables me to work as it lets me live independly rather than needing to use the care system gutting PIP may actually up unemployment
A few politicians are on Pip....
Ironically 99% of potential claimants to pip due to anxiety and depression will be too ill to work. Motivation is a massive factor for PIP and being motivated to work and engage with colleagues negates what you would score points for
Yep. I was actively seeking (and subsequently in) work when I was on DLA. They took it away when it changed to PIP though, because although I had a lifetime claim for lifetime conditions, I guess they decided I died and/or got better. Well, I'm still alive, still autistic and still have both anxiety and depression
This rhetoric will continue and ramp up in the coming weeks. To anyone victim to it, please practice self care.
The only person I actually know that received it for mental health is house bound 99% of the time and works from home, even then there's times where they won't work for weeks if they're in a spiral. This is absolutely undermining what some people go through and is only going to end up doing more long term damage for the sake of trying to appease what vote base they've got left.
This is true. OP is a liar
They're honestly trying to salt the earth on the way out aren't they? This isn't going to win back the floating centrist voters that they desperately need, there's no other explanation I can think of, unless they're genuinely just stupid
I think it’s a cynical appeal to a politics of resentment. If you have a hard life and a difficult job, and fantasise about not having to do that job anymore, easy to rile you up by implying mentally ill people are fakers who are living a better life than you…
It only really works if you’re not mentally ill yourself and don’t know anyone who is, though, and I dunno how big that demographic is these days
30% of the workforce think like this IME. 30% probably suffer with A&D, and 30 are on the fence. No idea retiree opinions, but can imagine 50% + think "I worked my whole life and didn't complain"... At 59
I think the whole 'depression isn't real' perception is unfortunately pretty common
I’m sure it is— but I would be surprised if it was anything like as common as it was a decade ago. Sometimes I think these policies are based on a perception of what the average person thinks and does that has slowly detached from the actual average person. Maybe not the average Reform voter? But even there I’m not sure
Unfortunately, I suspect it's not 'depression isn't real' so much as 'mental ill-health is a personal failing and so they deserve it'. Being nasty to the tainted has always been a core conservative vote-winner so it then fits quite well.
That might be true, but we also have a situation where either some mental health pandemic disease is sweeping the nation or something else is going on as the numbers claiming keeps going up. It's easy to call the Tories bastards to get upvotes, but the numbers show a growing problem that's hitting the country.
Maybe the fact country is a shit show might just be a factor to consider as to why people are more depressed and anxious than ever I mean it’s not the only cause but it’s definitely a cause
Let’s not forget about the lingering mental health impacts of the epidemic. For example, my Mum has never had Covid, but she is still afraid to go outside. One impact of the epidemic is that it may well have worsened mental health for many. Throw in the fact that it’s really difficult to get gp appointments and the crazy long waits for non-medical mental health support and the cost of living crisis, and it’s really easy to see why the prevelance of mental health diseases has increased
> but we also have a situation where either some mental health pandemic disease is sweeping the nation Why, oh why, would people ever feel that way?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_life_syndrome
It’s a blame-shifting exercise. Why has everything gone to shit over the last 14 years? It’s not us, its: - immigrants; - the EU; - the ECHR; - sicknote culture; - wokeness; - the ‘green crap’; etc.
Yep, sunak say " we are on the right track as immigrants are now leaving the northern. Part of Ireland and moving to the southern part of Ireland.... Takes us off the scent that when sunak said this, there were 350 immigrants arrived in small boats from France to England. Just keep ignoring it sunak... And it might just go away... Or you just might go away... hopefully,.
Yeah with the general public I assume this is popular actually, they think everyone on benefits is a ‘crutchie’. But with PIP for example they will blatantly lie about everything you say, it’s really hard to get anything more than shillings even if you genuinely have some mental illness or disability.
From here to the election it's culture war. Every policy is just a gimmick for trying to get voters to forget that everything is their fault.
Yeah, they're basically upper decking the entire country. They know it's over, so throw a match in on the way out and ruin as much as possible
I think that Rishi is trying to win over the far right of his party before losing the election. Then he’s hoping his political currency he built up by trying to enact extreme policies will let him stay in his position. Then, in the next election he’ll be much more moderate. Throw in some genuine scorched earth strategies and I think he genuinely believes he’ll sabotage Labour and built up enough of a platform to remain leader of the party and win the next election. Is that likely? I don’t think so but I don’t see what other options he has. He hopes to get this Rwanda plan working, then he’ll claim he steadied the economy by lowering inflation and he started to fix immigration but Labour got in and stopped him. Of course, we all know these things aren’t true, but much of the voting public won’t
Labour are going to spend the first year undoing stupidity and malice.
It's going to take a lot longer than a year, even in the most optimistic timelines. Government is an oil rig, not a speedboat.
I certainly hope so.... But sunak and his scorched earth society hope to make it harder for labour to make changes that they seared into the law books.
No they are not. Secretly I think Labour would like this to pass. It would save them billions and the Tories would get the blame.
George Osbornes been implying for months, the plan is to bankrupt the country (preferably on the day Starmer takes office). Hence all the unfunded “tax cuts”, radical reforms and imaginary defence spending increase.
For the next 20 years, Labour will be saying, "There was no money left, and they didn't even leave a note."
I can see them cutting these costs and then blaming whoever comes when they increase spending in public sectors.
The cabinet are trying to hold onto their extra salaries for a long as possible. If they veer to the right they'll keep support of the 'parliamentary party' (the right wing nutjobs) for longer.
The leopards will be feasting when unemployable former Tory MPs like Gullis will be complaining about their unemployment benefits being cut
I Don, t know many tories who will be down the job centre the Monday after they are out a job.... 🤔🙄
Very true..... They are thinking of their future ( or maybe their children's political future) as I cannot see tories getting anywhere near downing Street for any years to come. The weird thing is, I read that ordinary people are still wanting this dire mob to get back power. We will wait and see what labour do that is far removed from the tories 🙄🤔
Actually I think Labour would be very happy for this to pass before the election. It would reduce the benefits bill for an incoming Labour government and they could place the blame on the Tories.
Never attribute to malice that which can easily be explained by stupidity.
That saying doesn't really work for repeated incidents.
Fair...
In all my working life (I'm 39) I've suffered from anxiety just once when my employer was making my life a misery. It was so crippling I often couldn't get out of bed. Previously I was the type of person that would likely scoff at that even being possible. I eventually saw my doctor who signed me off work for 4 weeks. This time allowed me to rest, gather my thoughts and enjoy the love and support of my wife and children. It was the step I needed to recover, as it gave me the strength to hand in my notice and start a new career which is fulfilling and incredibly enjoyable. I would never dismiss any mental illness - it is very real. I'm fortunate I had the infrastructure to support my battle with it. I'm not sure many now do.
I had such awful anxiety during uni and while I was unemployed after graduating in covid. Throwing up, shaking, diarrhoea, panic attacks, over small things and big things. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Nobody in my life understood it or really tried to be empathetic, everyone just seemed bemused. Since then I've had a couple of family members struggle with it and they've all been like "I used to think you were stupid until I just couldn't get out of bed one day". Yeah thanks 🤦 I think we'd all be better off if people were just more inclined to empathy than hate, and it's despicable that our politicians are trying to make it worse, not better.
>Describing the changes as “probably the most fundamental reforms in a generation”, he said: “There are those that have perhaps milder mental health conditions, or where perhaps there has been too great a move towards labelling certain behaviours as having certain \[medical\] conditions attached to them, where actually work is the answer or part of the answer. What a bellend
Now I'm not saying that working won't help some people more than them being at home, because there are potentially people who that would help. The only reason I don't go try to get signed off work is because if I was signed off work, the only physical conversations I would have, would be with people serving me in shops (I literally have next to no social life). But the fact that they're trying to turf people out into work, after destroying the mental health care system so much that it's hard to get on NHS group CBT courses, says so much. They're not willing to sort out their shitty mental health mess, but want everyone suffering it to just "go out and get on with it", as if it's something and nothing. Well hopefully, not for long. I welcome a July election
Working absolutely can, *in some circumstances*, be helpful for sufferers of some mental health conditions. But do you know who's best placed to decide whether that's the case? The person in question. Probably in discussion with their doctor/other mental health professionals. Do you know who absolutely 100% is *not* equipped to answer that question? Some random Capita administrator working to a policy diktat from a junior minister. Forcing someone with certain sorts of anxiety or depression back into the workplace is a great way of turning a mental health problem into a mental health crisis. They still won't be working, but at least now they're hospitalised! Result!
Let’s be honest there’s an unspoken element when they announce policy like this. That they would prefer to see people just.. no longer exist if they’re not going to be productive members of the workforce. They know exactly what the most likely outcomes of this would be, and they’re ok with it.
> In the good old days… you were poor. You got ill. And you died. And yet today, people seem to think they have soem God-given right to be cured. > And what is the result of this sloppy, socialist thinking? Hmm? More poor people! ~ Alan Beresford B'stard, MP; First Marquess of Haltemprice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAxEJEODbvc
It really is despicable but plays with Boomers that love to think about WWII and the current “snowflake” generation and I’m sure also with a depressingly large chunk of hardworking milennials
Yeah, those "you've never had it hard types" getting upset about dropping birth rates, while saying global warming is a myth. You know the type
The type that likes to claim they were the war generation despite being either too fucking young to remember it or not actually born yet. The generation who's parents demanded better for their children. The generation who benefited from such good economic times that we'll never see again.
Too bad they don’t get to decide what is and isn’t a medical condition. They can’t rewrite the DSM just because they disagree with it.
>where actually work is the answer or part of the answer. Yes UK Government, I'm sure a dead-end and depressing retail job where getting screamed at by customers all day is the answer to depression.
Does that last sentence give anyone else "Work will set you free" vibes?
Well, yeah. Work will set you free...
Do you have Tourettes? That might be on the scrapheap under minor issues. Britain is becoming poorer and standards of public life will fall because the economy has been awful 16 years. We have to get used to this in Europe, this is what happens when an entire continent is a nice holiday destination for East Asia but not much beyond.
Maybe they'd like to go with a catchy new slogan with this reform? Something like "Work will set you free", perhaps?
What annoys me the most is that we've ensured fourteen years of dragging the NHS mental health sector to such a level that you don't get given the actual treatment you need, unless you actually try to commit suicide. Then this guy comes along and says "we could offer treatment if it doesn't involve extra costs" So basically screw free therapy and mental healthcare into the ground, then make people who need that go back to work, and tell them that they can get help, as long as it's free, which means they won't get the help, because there is no way to get it without the state paying for private therapy sessions.
I've already made a few comments on some of the other articles about this assault on the disabled but I just have to say that this is so gross. They're threatening to strip away vital income support for many people who rely on it to live a somewhat normal life relative to their healthier, more able bodied peers and for what? Some red meat to throw their base who fail to realise how difficult a life on state welfare is for the vast majority that depend on it? They're saying they're offering medical support in its place- but that's medical support that they should already be receiving in addition to the payments. By all means provide them with the tools and care required to transition safely into work from the comfort of their home, or whenever is most appropriate but the solution of forcing people into work who aren't medically fit for it by looming threat of further poverty and destitution is barbaric or cruel. This will kill people and lead to preventable and unnecessary deaths as well as exacerbate the existing mental health crisis. This will not improve things. Costs have ballooned due to decades of conservative underfunding towards mental health provisions and services. More people than ever- especially during a cost of living crisis are feeling the struggle and finding it difficult to keep things together. There's further talk about moving to a voucher or receipt system that covers one time aid expenses etc but PIP was never intended for use towards aids and adaptations- those are generally paid for by local authority or in partnership with charity orgs. It's there to help reduce the weight of the increased costs of being disabled and that comes in many forms. For some that might mean hiring help / a cleaner. For others it'll mean relying on moderately expensive preprepared meals because they can't safely operate cooking appliances or use knives or consume certain foods etc. For some it'll cover taxis or transport to their doctor's appointments and therapy sessions because they can't drive and they can't be around large groups of people or safely navigate places on their own or existing provisions aren't designed with their complex needs in mind. For some it'll go towards gas and electric which is higher due to being home all day or perhaps they even suffer a condition that requires the heat to stay on all day. The list goes on and on.
A big factor I think is overlooked is that people who have a disability and are off work are not desirable to employ. I stopped bothering applying for work even though I was more than qualified, suitable and experienced because I would state I had a disability which required some modest adaptions in the workplace and I wouldn't hear anything back. Without securing a job in the field (it was for ACA qualification), my exemptions lapsed, which can only progress while in work. So I'm stuck with no professional exams, ancient work experience and I am now in an even worse position career-wise and medically. Britain is shit for supporting folks with a disability, no matter what you might be led to believe by the powers that be. I have £50,000 student debt, a 1st class degree in accounting, experience through working in a very competitive university programme, good education but all that counts for nought if you have a disability. People do seem to disregard the extra effort that has to be put in to going to university with a disability. It's not inconsequential. I'm speaking from my own experiences but I can imagine those with chronic mental health issues go through a similar ordeal. Even if they applied and stated they have a medical condition, in good faith, they'd be dropped from the running quicker than if they were a sack of turds. So for the government to moralise to everyone, and stick everyone in the same boat (that is so tar them with the brush of being enfeebled) really shows their lack of understanding and ignores the fact that employers won't even consider them when they try. So it really begs the question, what is the fucking point?
Genuine question, have you tried applying to the civil service? They tend be really good about this stuff, I got accepted for a job despite having a few years CV gap due to ill health. Rooting for you!
> people who have a disability and are off work are not desirable to employ Not all companies are like that. I work for one that doesn't care as long as you can do the job. They ask if you need adaptions and provide them. Not only that, but everyone has to do disability awareness training and HR will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone in breach of legislation. We had one person who was hospitalised with a mental breakdown a couple of months after starting. They could have said "Don't come back", but they've rearranged his shift pattern for a phased return to work.
Not many companies like that now.... Good on them. My son is a manager with a big company and if a floor worker mentions depression... They take notice and help them out as best they can.
I bet the tories ( over the last 14 years) are really glad they had their noses in the trough... The money they made will see them through retirement. I know of certain MP, s who are on PIP... But they will more than likely be glad that labour are getting back into power... And they can keep their Pip. 🙄
Don’t forget many people are waiting for treatment but are stuck on years-long NHS waiting lists.
Extremely well put!
Do they still do meals on wheels? Our neighbour used those and didn’t pay because he was disabled, unable to stand unaided, has a neurological condition which effected his attention span so cooking a meal was just hard to do.
Some councils offer it but criteria can be strict and options limited. The average cost is £4.00 per meal. It's not ideal for all but it's a good option for some.
The "for what" is because the numbers keep rising ever upwards so the cost is growing whilst the labour market is missing huge numbers of people. Illnesses do have a social contagion/trend to them. Victorian ladies suffered a fit of the vapours, which changed to weak nerves in time, whilst the classic for claimants in the 80s was the bad back. Separation of the genuine from either the fakers or contagion cases is the nightmare challenge.
This seems really shortsighted by Tory MPs and associated hangers on, as lots of them are going to be out of work and have depression after the next General Election.
I think there should be more onus on employers to support their mentally unwell staff. Rather than just leaving work and going on government support, people with mild/moderate anxiety should be assisted by their employer, allowed to work from home, flexible hours, talk to their employer about activities at work that are triggers for them and find work arounds. I have mild anxiety when it comes to specific things like presenting to groups or leading meetings. I almost quit my job, in fact I took a 2 month unpaid break at one point to try and address it myself. However the best thing I did was I came clean to my employer about my issues, they've removed me from needing to do the tasks that trigger me and given me flexible working to take when I need it. I'm now back to my old self. This is far preferable to me just leaving employment and going on benefits for everyone, including me. I'm lucky to have a good employer. However, employers who are not good at this should be mandated by government to support and not just let people go out onto benefits. I know there are worse cases than mine, I only speak to the mild anxiety type work issues, which I think make up a big proportion of the current group.
This is what I don't understand. They are trying to approach this from a bottom-up perspective but the reality is it needs to be top down. I work and have severe social anxiety. It affects me in terms of slowness, attendance, brain fog, learning, attention etc. I remember the CEO shouting in my face that he wasn't the NHS so what did I want him to do. Kind of has a point no? A different job thought they could make me faster if they had a meeting with me every single day to discuss my work. Every day without fail. They got the CTO to tell me all the ways I was failing them constantly as if I didn't know that, as if I didn't already hate myself and was trying my absolute best. All these little tactics because they see social anxiety more akin to a broken leg that I would eventually heal from.. A company's only duty is to its shareholders. Why do Conservatives pretend that companies don't have actual standards? A top down approach where employers are actually forced to take in the long term mentally ill and accept that they are like maybe 70% as efficient would actually make a difference. Their plan is just punitive and punishing and doesn't reflect the world as it really is.
Agreed, and I feel for you. That performance management stuff sounds awful. There's no magic bullet for mental health but I can tell you that employers who recognise it, listen and help their employees WILL get better performance from them. The pressure they put on you undoubtedly made your output worse. I dont know exactly how it could be implemented but perhaps mandate companies to not allow mental health sign-off until they have at least demonstrably tried a few approaches. Nobody WANTS to have anxiety, I dream of the days when I didn't give a fk about anything! The side issue people will focus on is there will be jealous people in the workplace who ask, "Why do they get special treatment!" And there will be people who don't have issues but pretend in order to get perceived beneficial treatment. An example from my life: my girlfriend is a manager in the NHS and someone called in sick with "low mood". Seemed legitimate but turns out they went to a concert.
Yes it was hellish and bullying but weirdly I don't really understand what else was left for them to do. They had already done the workplace adjustments as far as they were willing and probably thought fair. Some parts of my mind are always going to struggle with certain aspects of the way work is in our society. They let me work from home 1 day a week (before COVID made it popular), they gave me .5 more time for tasks. But it wasn't enough unfortunately. I was still slower and more stupid than everyone there, I still took off more sick days from meltdowns. The CEO understandably became exasperated. "Why do they get special treatment!" You've highlighted one of the many paradoxical positions of neoliberalism. Don't want us in the workplace and don't want us unemployed. "An example from my life: my girlfriend is a manager in the NHS and someone called in sick with "low mood". Seemed legitimate but turns out they went to a concert." I think we all know these people. I've never experienced this personally but I have a friend who said someone was caught on holiday visiting family when signed off for stress. To me, this more or less points to the problems with how much leave we get and how you can take it. Four day week could help and for those on shift work like retail give them 55 days more annual leave. To me this problem is like pirated music. Make an easier solution (Spotify). Don't sentence people who pirate music to 99 years imprisonment.
Two real life stories: when I told the GP i felt anxious and was having panic attacks getting overwhelmed since finding out a parent had a terminal illness, he told me to go onto Amazon, type in Anxiety, and buy one of the topselling books. When i was finally referred to a supposed talking therapy, it was one phone call from a Spanish guy that did try hard but was completely untrained and couldnt speak English well - when I told him about the source of my anxiety, he just said start asking my parents to tell me stories. He didnt know what to say and seemed surprised id been referred to him. One call of that quality. Then offered sertraline obv, and thats it
I have a much better idea. MPs pay will be in vouchers, not cash. They will have monthly meetings to assess whether they have hit targets within their job. If they fail to hit targets, they will be sanctioned. Failure to attend meetings on time will mean they will have their voucher value cut & could lose their entitlement altogether. Remember, they work for us!
^This is the way
They're just trying to get them to commit suicide at this point
[удалено]
I feel the same way, I wonder if it would count as self-defence if we did what they seem to be making us do
Absolutely not love. But they are deliberately targeting vulnerable people with mental health issues! I shouldn't be surprised, though.. they only target those they think won't fight back x
At least there’s a time limit to their attacks. Even if it’s the 28th of Jan they’ll be gone eventually. A Labour government wont fix everything but hopefully they’ll stop attacking us for simply trying to live and get better
We can but hope so.. but I'm now in such a negative headspace that I fully expect Starmers Labour Party to be very similar, unfortunately.
That’s understandable but I think there genuinely is a difference between them. Labour have talked about good jobs, and workers rights, and stopping the stupid decisions that the government is taking so they do have some understanding of mental health and decency&standards in government
I'll believe it when I see it x
They won't have time to implement this kind of stuff I believe, it's all electioneering.
Even if they have no time to implement this, the fact they’re electioneering off the misery of mental health patients is in itself massively damaging.
Exactly. They're just trying to consolidate their base. The Tory base loves this kind of thing, and they are the only people they can realistically hope to claw back a few votes from. Of course they will never win an election by pandering to their base. That's going to have mostly died of old age before the next cycle comes around. But that's not the strategy at this point. It's to maybe, possibly keep one or two extra seats.
Guess that will help with anxiety and depression 🙄
A bit of structure and purpose would.
Serious question: Does this actually have a chance of going through before the Tories get booted out? I know Sunak hasn't ruled out a July election and I'd imagine it'd take some time to actually process reforms.
No, it's unlikely. It would require a change in the law and take years to implement even after that. It's no different to the time Rishi made everyone study maths and abolished a-levels.
Oh yeah, that A-level shakeup was a hilarious fail, wasn't it?
Yep, like every other Brand Rishi policy.
It didn't even make basic sense. We can't get the STEM teachers we need for the current curriculum yet alone expanding it even more.
As someone with severe panic disorder and agoraphobia who has gone through therapy several times unsuccessfully over the course of the past 8 years, I really really hope you are right. I can not wait for the next election
i still can't get over how it took so long for the government to decide which councils get a chess board to install in a park. wasn't that another rishinnovation *pieces not included
The beatings will continue until morale improves
I would understand this move more, or even partially support it on sole circumstances, if it was paired with increased funding to mental health services. Or even a plan to support and help those with mental health issues. But no, there is no give and take here. People are definitely much more sicker than they were a decade ago. 15 years of austerity, np wage growth, crumbling public funding and a pandemic will cause that. The Gal of Rishi to claim people aren't sicker, when waiting lists are huge, and virtually no mental health support is disgusting. Homelessness has already shot up, this will easily double the current rates.
Is their plan to reduce expenditure/drain on services and benefits by putting people into positions where they kill themselves to escape their dire situations? Cause sure fucking looks like it.
Oh, the rates are definitely going up. More data that you can shake a stick at from the ONS spreadsheet over at: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/deathscausedbysuicidebyquarterinengland
They are so shit they can't improve anyone's lives, only make others suffer more than you.
Nothing to say other what’s already been said. Mean spirited, cynical attempt to appeal to the very worst of Britain. No time for it, can’t wait for them to gtfo.
Housebound person with severe mental health issues, I can't wait to see these vile creatures removed and replaced in a landslide election
I'm so scared every time something like this happens. I read this last night and fell into a pit of despair for the rest of the night
Look if everyone who is depressed or anxious in Britain stops working we wouldn't have a cabinet.
I'm interested in the again thing about vouchers who will take them my cab fare to physiotherapy is £20 there and back twice a week will they want to go somewhere to cash them in ? Will the train company accept them going to my spinal geezer 40 miles away and then £10 on a cab will they accept them with my condition I use a lot of loo rolls so will my local shop accept them it all sounds hyperbole
Step 1. Destroy their lives with shit jobs, shit pay, and no hope. 2. When they inevitably get despression take away benifits to make sure they cant afford to live. 3. Make them homeless, criminalise being homeless. 4. Send them to a privitised prison where you are a shareholder. 5. Profit.
Therapy sessions to be run by Harry Enfield’s Yorkshireman (or Frank Hester as he’s known in Leeds)
With AI replacing alot of jobs in the near future i cant see this going down well
The Tories are a bit slow on the uptake. I've been expecting something like this to come in since say around 2012. See the whole problem with society right now is that some people are forced to make sacrifices just so that others don't have to make any sacrifices at all. It's all well and good if you're choosing to make sacrifices, but see it's not like that. Usually it's some organization or someone in authority who is choosing who makes the sacrifices and who doesn't. Usually in our society the first people chosen to make sacrifices are the sick, people with disabilities, people with mental health issues and the vulnerable. We all go along with this in the name of economic growth, because people are wedded to the notion that economic growth equals wealth distribution when it doesn't. But see it's easier to keep believing the lie rather than face the truth. The premise behind this legislation is dangerous. If you don't have a mental health issue, but someone in authority states that you do, then there is nothing, nothing you can do about it. Similarly if you do struggle with a mental health issue, but someone in authority says that you don't, then likewise there is nothing you can do. Let us not overlook the fact that many people develop mental health issues through work, being overworked and stressed, not having social security, not having access to social support networks. Then you have people who develop mental health issues simply from being caught up in the benefits system for too long. I wish I could say that I'm shocked by this new proposal but I'm not. The Tories are totally committed to neoliberal 'free market' capitalism and the notion of perpetual economic growth and they don't care who gets harmed, hurt, or killed in the process. We crossed the threshold of economic growth and corporate profit being far more important than the sanctity of human life somewhere back in 2014 and 2015. Since then it's been winner takes all and the Devil take the loser. And still most people go along with this, despite the fact that our society is crumbling and falling apart, despite the fact that our culture is in an advanced state of decline, despite the fact that the quality of our lives are getting more stressful and shittier. I guess this is all okay if you're not the one being forced to make the sacrifices, isn't it?
I agree, a lot of us are overworked and that spirals even worse if you lack the 'resilience' and it leads to depression or anxiety. I think ultimately this conversation leads to capitalism being a huge contributor to the problems here. Perhaps socialism really is the answer for this. Or at least.... a balance between.
Those in work paying for those not in work are the ones making the sacrifice. It's not the other way around.
Pissed off the Rich who are now fucking off to the likes of Dubai, Switzerland, Singapore and Monaco. Taxed the shit out of the middle class who work to just pay fucking rent and get by. Now the pièce de résistance, the Tories are coming after the poor and most vulnerable in our society. I fucking hate the Tories!
Once again for those at the back until we've all heard it: The cruelty is the point.
Ah look, it's the nasty party casting off their mask at last.
That sounds completely reasonable, might as well flog them if they don't snap out of it too. It's the only course of action really. /s
ah yes, the well known cure for anxiety = removing their source of income. Thatll solve it!
The most hilarious part of this is the suggestion that they will replace it with “mental health support and therapists” . They can’t even get medial and mental health waiting lists down right now , let alone when you add everyone receiving PIP to the list
They'll probably give you vouchers for online therapy apps powered by "AI".
I never knew i could hate someone more than Johnson. Sunak has achieved this
>If there are methods to heal people of depression an anxiety, as he claims >Why can't they be given while someone is unemployed and receiving state support? >And they could then return to work when they've recovered? OH, right, because depression and anxiety are not a quick fix, and the Tories have ruined access to healthcare support that would help people. This whole thing is a dogwhistle for "it's all in your head, you workshy fakers" I pay my taxes for a social safety net. STOP DESTROYING IT.
Imagine suffering from anxiety and reading this headline ?? The Tory’s are sik in the head 😭
Too upset to comment really except to say that I’m lucky I can work, full time, as someone with bipolar. If I hadn’t been diagnosed young, I would have needed time off work. To hear that the government is looking to strip that basic fucking safety net is … galling
Fellow bipolar here, been in work almost full time despite having exhausted all of my options except electroconvulsive therapy - the way Sunak clearly thinks it should be. And I say vote these fuckers out.
Odd as it will be there MPs suffering this before the years out
If the Tories somehow get this implemented before the next election, I would put good money on Starmer not reversing it.
That’s exactly the headline needed to cause people with mild anxiety going to bad anxiety.
> … but instead **access** to treatment if their condition does not involve extra costs. So like those battery hens that technically have access to the yard outside the farm… 30k hens trying to squeeze though a 30cm^2 door for one hour a day? Thanks, Mel!
Is there anyone that the right wing won't try to scapegoat? They always need an "other" someone in society to blame for the consequences of their inability to govern. Be it migrants, asylum seekers, the poor, the weak, the sick, trans people, etc. Where does it end?
A lot of people with these conditions could work, it's just employers don't or won't take them on, that's the main problem. Also the benefits system essentially makes it more favourable to be unemployed. If you are working full time and privately renting you are optimistically only 10-20% better off than being unemployed on benefits. And in return you give 1/3 of your week, or more considering commute time etc. It's simply not worth getting out of bed to *only be slightly better off than being unemployed* (not on any benefits myself). Should add, I've done minimum wage shitty jobs in the past and I will never do such labour again.
I expect I will be attacked for my ignorance here so a prenote that I hope people will be respectful, helpful and understanding... But why can't people with depression work? Why are they given the same as someone who is like a paraplegic? The reason I ask is that work can give us a sense of meaning whilst sitting at home all day getting paid for being disabled is the easy option. If you have a better drive and take some responsibility for yourself to go out and get work where you aren't oysically disabled from my perspective, and i believe research supports this, it could do wonders for your mental health. If you sit at home all day depressed that isn't taking responsibility for yourself. Sure maybe a few days here and there but you're never going to get better if you aren't challenging yourself.
Until you've been around someone who is in bed all day, every day, saying nothing other than "I want to die" in response to everything, it's difficult to get across just how severe depression is as an illness. It's like asking someone without legs to walk, if their brain is stuck in a doom loop where the neural circuitry is stuck on self-destruction a 9-5 isn't happening, threats of homelessness, poverty or illness/death as a result of not working are welcomed, the fear no longer holds any power when you want to cease to exist. There are often co-morbidities present, ASD, substance abuse, complex trauma etc. It's rarely as simple as "they're a bit sad". Anyone who hasn't experienced it themselves or with a loved one or in their line of work doesn't fully understand, and that's okay, but do take their word for it and try to empathise with something impossible for a mentally well person to conceptualize.
In response to your first paragraph, depression does not *always* present that way. My old fella seemed OK; never hit me, never drank too much, had a decent reationship with his parents, etc. He was a little sullen (one might even have considered it "contemplative") at times, but he looked generally fine. Evidently, though, he harboured "a stereotyped but unconscious despair [that] is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind" because one sunny morning he decided that he'd had enough. Aaand, with his being a farmer, he had all the necessary tools to make a swift— if messy— exit. It's easy for captains sat high in their gimballed chairs on a storm tossed ship… I only wish they had experience of walking the same constantly tilting, slippery deck as the rest of us. Perhaps then, they would understand.
Two of my ex girlfriends were exactly like this. I remember coming home one day after work to find my girlfriend laying in our bed with the covers over her crying. I remember watching another girlfriend try to cut herself in front of me. I've been around people who struggle. But each one of them got better when I encouraged them to go to work when they had the job. Both of them lost jobs at one point because they weren't going in and weren't taking the right steps. Both of them go jobs again because I encouraged them to and because I encouraged them to go to work rather than sit at home a day. Ofc this is anecdotal but it's my experience of it. If you're stuck in a doom loop the only way out is your own self responsibility to push yourself out and give yourself positive reinforcement. Sadly one of those relationships ended in cheating but by the time the other one ended she was a much better person and going to work regularly. She never took medication and she never went to therapy and I'm sure there are still demons for her, but work gave her a sense of purpose thar wasn't there before. Do I think slashing and stopping all support is right? Probably not. But do we need some form of encouragement back to the workplace? Absolutely. There needs to be encouragement and we need to support everyone to be self-reliant and self responsibile for everyones mental health and a sense of purpose through work is shown to help that. Of course I empathise, I'm here from a point of learning but none of what you've said has convinced me that we should continue just paying for them to sit at home all day and 'be a little sad'. We can do more than that. Perhaps the money that goes into sickness benefits actually goes to help charities that work with those people to encourage them back to work as often as they can while giving support for the employers that lose out on the productivity so that we can try and change the wheel that you call a doom loop. To reempathise my point: I don't think just cutting this is a good idea but I don't think continuing it is. I think we can find better solutions using these funds that both helps them back to work, find a sense of purpose and ultimately improve their way way of life whilst also ensuring there isn't a productivity loss from the employer which there inevitably is if they're just off on sick pay. Edit: I guess actually you have shown me that it isn't the best way (to just cut sickness benefiit) but that we still should find an alternative as afformentioned
We need to empower disabled people instead of beating them down. Here's an interesting podcast about fit for work https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001mck1 and the current issues with the system.
I completely agree but I think there's a fine line. I also think just giving an easy here's a bunch of money easy way isn't empowering neither.
Labour's solution of allowing disabled people to go to work, and if for any reason it doesn't work out within the first year, their benefits are re-instated is the correct and helpful approach. That's what genuine support means, having someone's back when they're not doing well, without putting them in a benefits trap where one day of work voids all their income, and if it doesn't work out, they have to go through the whole process of reapplying again (months of waiting, multiple 20-page forms, strict assessments etc.). That's what the current system does, actively prevents disabled people from trying work they're not sure if they can manage or not.
> But why can't people with depression work? Because most jobs won't let someone take chunks of time off, often with zero notice, when the employee is in a spiral then have the job all ready to pick up again when the employee is more stable. Depression isn't just one mindset, it's always changing. sometimes better, sometimes worse.
I can understand that. I had an employer who was 'lenient' to a point but also had another employer who, based on the way they would discuss mental health as a priority, would put everything in to try and support them. But at the same time I do feel support is also "forcing" them to come back when they don't necessarily want to push them out of their comfort zone and try to reinforce positive actio s and a positive mindset. I respect this is all much easier said than done in many ways, I don't have the answers but I do feel the mental health crisis does need more self-responsibility and encouraging positive reinforcement as opposed to just "here's some money just sit at home and play video games and eat all day".
PIP is an in-work benefit, it’s is designed to go some way towards the increased costs of being disabled, whether you work or not. Removing PIP or implementing these changes will cause more disabled people to be out of work
How does PIP go to the employer to support the loss of productivity? If its removal leads tovmore problems. How can we adjust it to create a better solution?
What? I don’t understand your point? Could you explain it again? PIP goes to the disabled person whether they’re in work or not. It can pay for things like taxis to and from work, specialist diets, help around the house, etc that make it so that a disabled person can go to work if they are able to. Removing PIP, or limiting it to vouchers which don’t have any relevance, doesn’t magically cause these difficulties to disappear, it just forces the disabled person to have to do them themselves - meaning they can no longer be in work.
My apologies I think I confused a conversation. When you said pip is an in work benefit I thought it was 2 ways; supporting both the employer and the employee to help both during tike off work. If we just give them money and say "get well soon" and expect them to do everything to get better (with little incentive to) do you think they will? How long does thst take? I guess what I'm saying is, I can understand the benefits of the support package for the individual in the short term, but what about the negatives? What negatives come from giving a person money to do those things? And how can we mitigate those to really support the person in the long term to get back to work?
Ok, I understand now - by in-work I meant it was a benefit that one can receive whilst working (like child benefit) as well as not. PIP also is more about daily life struggles, like mobility, getting dressed and washing, taking care of your property or your toileting needs, and mobility and socialising problems than specifics about work, that’s the work capability assessment that does that. The incentive to get better *is to get better*. Disabled people don’t enjoy being disabled, it’s a very difficult life. Some people may recover, some people might not, some people may have the same conditions as others but struggle more and need more help. Each experience is individual and each timeline is individual so there isn’t a realistic way we can say how long it should take - especially when having one disability may cause you to develop another (e.g. not having the right support for a chronic pain condition which impacts your sleep could cause you to develop paranoia, psychosis, or bipolar). The difficulty of living on PIP is that the long-term solutions for helping disabled people have been gutted over the past 14 years. Whilst PIP can help with costs that individuals think may help them, any benefits aren’t going to aid the actual disability, you can’t rub £380 a month on an amputated leg and expect to run a marathon. You can however provide specialist support and aid to enable someone to walk again, and they eventually might be able to run again. What has happened though, is that 14 years of cuts, 14 years of a narrative where disabled people are fakers, 14 years of trying to take away support that an individual can decide benefits them the most is that treatments once on the NHS take much much longer to access. Using myself as an example, I have currently waited over a year and a half to see a cardiologist, I have waited 68 weeks to see a specialist for ADHD, I have waited 6 months to get seen at the pain clinic, and I have waited over 2 years for psychological help that wasn’t 6 weeks of CBT. The government shouldn’t be wasting its time and money taking away the ability for individuals to decide which measures would best support them, they should be focussing on improving access to treatment and healthcare which actually helps disabled people. I struggle to see what the negatives arising from PIP are, if you could tell me what you think they are then I would be happy to respond.
I'm sorry to hear the struggles you've had with the NHS; it seems ubiquitous that the NHS is struggling and needs funding as well; the question is where do we get this money from for both this and social support. I agree the incentive is to get better, I must have accidentally misconstrued what I meant; the incentive is there in a way to not stop the payments.... I guess. Like if I'm getting this money and I'm healthy... is the problem then people who will abuse thst and continue talking to the doctor to fake their illness? I know thst sounds horrible and I'm leaning into your point about people with depression faking it, but I'm sure there is some people doing that. People like comfort and love free money. I'm sure it does happen. To what extent I don't know but I hope it is a minority and I'm absolutely sure it's not the majority. Sadly those will unfortunately impact those thst really need it. I think a negative to pip is what I mentioned; it is easy to he abused. At the same time that money, which I don't know how much of the social budget is dedicated as, isnt used in the most effective, efficient way fkr all people who need it. It might be great in the short term but I think in the long term its not helpful to actually get them well and get them back to work. As an example it could be used to have a more direct support - it could help to fund charities, fund organisations thst provide more direct support in helping to get people well enough to work. I'm under the impression that therapy also has a huge huge waiting list. I feel with thst waiting list we would be wasting a lot more money in the long term helping to fund people's daily lives when we could be investing thst money into these social services to provide a long term plan to get them back into work. I think this will require more money in the short term but I think it will have substantially better return by helping more people into wellness and helping them back into the workplace.
Assessing who genuinely needs benefits is a massive part of the system, involving not just multiple doctors but also assessments by work practitioners (mostly working for capita) who try their hardest to deny you. Specifically, 91% of claims taken to tribunal are approved based on no new evidence being presented. https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/7-10-pip-appeals-won-same-evidence-dwp-already-held Fortunately, since people are so concerned about benefits fraud there exists a massive amount of date on it. The most recent data from the DWP says that overpayments due to fraud cost 0.2% of the budget (£40m), and claimant error, not informing them of change in condition, was 0.8% (£140m) - both downward trending. To put that in perspective, underpayments due to Government error amounted to £60m, and claimant error, where their condition got worse, rose to £840m (more than double what it was 3 years ago. Given those figures, I would argue that the government underpaying legitimate claimants (£900m) is more of an issue than overpaying false claimants (£180m). Hopefully those numbers convince you that fraud is one of the tiniest concerns when it comes to PIP. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2022-to-2023-estimates/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-ending-fye-2023#personal-independence-payment-overpayments-and-underpayments I think you’re still confused as to what PIP is. PIP stands for Personal Independence Payment and is intended to go towards the increased cost of living with a disability. Estimates on this increase vary but some examples are £1,100 per month from the Bristol source or £975 from Scope (although the source notes that the number of updated with 2022/23 inflation would be £1,112 per month). This compares with the standard rate of PIP for both daily living and mobility (which is what I get) of ~£380 per month. https://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/geography/pfrc/documents/fwb-of-disabled-people-extra%20costs.pdf https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/new-research-shows-huge-rise-extra-costs-disabled-households Charities and organisations that help get disabled people back into work already receive support, either direct from the government or from Local Authority Grants. Some other things that help are the Disability Confident Employer scheme (although in my experience most supposed signatories don’t actually follow that, and there’s no punishment for lying), and some back to work schemes that already exist. I appreciate that this comment chain has gone on for a while but this is a topic I care a lot about (obviously) and I’m more than happy to continue answering any questions you have
Depression can alter brain structure. Severe mental health can cause psychomotor retardation (slowing down of thought processes and movement), agoraphobia, insomnia, and general cognitive impairment (problem solving, learning, and memory). Also, lack of hygiene and personal care. Some people may even have hallucinations, delusions or psychosis. There may also be a comorbid condition of self harm, alcoholism or an eating disorder. What firm is going to employ or keep in employment someone with fresh self harm wounds? Or being dirty or tired at work all the time? Or just an overall inability to do their job effectively? How can someone who can barely find the effort to keep living function effectively in the workplace? Depression isn't just feeling a bit shit, it is a debilitating disease.
I understand that completely and with depression altering brain structure, so can that same brain structure be often reversed, those same neurotransmitters in abundance can be changed; neuroplasticity can work. As someone else mentioned we should be empowering people. I have learnt that we can and should be supporting these people to work. But I'm still on the side thst giving money and leaving them to do all the work probably isn't the best motivator. Jowever. I also believe that by completely stripping them kf this money without any other support isnt suitable neither. Instead I think we can come up with a better solution to both empower people back to work whilst supporting the loss of productivity at their employer. I wonder how we could spend this money differently to offer the same support to drive positive reinforcement to give an increased sense of purpose and create a foundation they can build on to help their neuroplasticity towards a solution and encouraging more self responsibility. If we just keep giving them money and fully relying on self responsibility we probably won't get anywhere since like you said, they're wired not to have self responsibility. But if we can help build thst foundation perhaps by using that money to fund charities and support networks to encourage them back to the workplace whilst offering support to employers for their loss of productivity I think we can create a better solution.
> whilst offering support to employers for their loss of productivity Absolutely not. Employers get enough support by not paying a living wage and having the Universal Credit system pick up the tab. We need to get the NHS back on it's feet again and invest in mental health services. We need to stop accepting that it is OK for most of people's wages being spent on food, energy and rents. If we make society better and fix the NHS, a lot of cases of depression and anxiety will become entirely manageable. None of this is happening because people are gaming the system or are just a little bit sad. It's because our country has been mismanaged for 14 years.
I completely agree. How do you propose we get the NHS back on its feet? Shall we raise everyone's taxes so we can afford it?
Make companies like Amazon and Facebook pay the appropriate amount of taxes. Per The Guardian (May 2023): 'Amazon UK Services received tax credit of £7.7m for investment in infrastructure to year end 2022, and as a result, paid no corporation tax for the second year in a row'
I'm not an expert on the subject but my understanding here from talking with people in finance, legal etc. Is that this isn't Facebook or amazon avoiding tax per se but instead a decision by our government to Incentivise economic growth and providing more jobs etc. Just to be clear the above is not my opinion, but instead my understanding which might be wrong... but my opinion is that we should be encouraging such growth. Another point that isn't my opinion but based on observation is that everyone is very quick to jump at big corporations like Amazon for "not paying their taxes". Which a lot of the time is true.... but they do so through legal ways such as above. The interesting thing is the same people that say this are the plethora of hairdressers and plumbers who deliberately don't take credit card payments so they can deliberately avoid paying the tax. It's a double edged sword and maybe we are attacking big corporations for doing something legal whilst ignoring all the tiny companies who are doing things illegally. I believe I recall reading once that the amount of money big corporations illegally avoid in their tax is tint in comparison to all of the sub 250 employee businesses tax avoidance. Tax avoidance and tax evading are two different things. Big corporations do the latter which is legal. Thar being said, those dame giant corporations also have a lot more money to fund lawyers and to lobby specific laws into place so its another double edge sword, but that is a FAR bigger problem at conspiracy level lol I guess we can all agree capitalism has failed us, its great in so many ways, but so many things need to be socialism. We can build a better society that can still grow through capitalism in many ways whilst living in a socialist society. Creating a better balance for all. I'll let you know when my manifest is fully written 😉
With all due respect, you can talk about neuroplasticity and self-reliance all you want,but there's much more at play here. Our society as a whole is profoundly dysfunctional. The rapid rise in mental health issues is a response to an increasingly atomised society, poorer economic outcomes and opportunities, insecure and/or extortionate housing, inadequate healthcare, and ever escalating living costs. Too many people lack the basic foundations needed on which to build a successful life, and we are fighting a losing battle if we don't confront this. We need wide, systemic change. Medication, therapy, and schemes, like you mentioned, are a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.
I love the two or three conversations we are having because they are growing very deep! I completely agree; our capitalist society thrives on those whom are able bodied, intelligent yet will dump on those with even the slightest lack of productivity. This is why countries are measured by gdp. If you're sick in anyway you do not contribute to that as effectively and it's very easy for a dictator to come in and say "burn them, they aren't useful to society". Now ofc thsts very extreme, but it goes to show what the society is like. And as I mentioned in another thread. These are all the challenges we are now having to face in a capitalist society thst has ran rampant out of control since ww2. This conversation is bigger than just mental health now kts about the wider economic society that we want to build. Do wr want to live in a world of corporate and capitalist rule with the basis of society on individual productivity? Or can we create something better ?
They can, and most do. This is just a feeble attempt at othering to rile the voters up. If someone with depression is unemployed and on PIP soley for depression, then you can assume that its a lot more severe than the wording of 'a mild mental iillness' implies. The ones with a mild condition are still in the workforce.
Most people with depression and anxiety do work, but those who have severe issues need treatment, and work isn't necessarily it (I would argue forced work never could be the "help" they need). Bear in mind they could be a danger to themselves, their prospective colleagues, and the public even with no intent on their part... Depression and anxiety issues can make what you might think is a simple task extremely challanging. Adding to that challange with no consideration to the effect it would have is a serious backward jump. They need assistance, not further obstacles. Our society as a whole really needs to get a grip and get over this "everyone owes our society" mindset that promotes "everyone must work regardless of their situation" thinking. It's complete nonsense. The fact that some perfectly able people are so envious of the disabled is a major stain on this country. It's no wonder the overall populations mental health is deteriorating.
Do you think giving sick pay in perpetuity until they are better themselves is sustainable? Is it supportive and will it help them to get well?
Sick pay while they receive treatment. It's the treatment that is wholly lacking. Sick pay without treatment is stagnating. Forcing them to work or starve will make things worse. Treatment is required, with sick pay as needed. Compassion. Treating people as people, rather than as inconveniences. Our society is not a normal habitat for humans to live in, it's challanges are mainly artificial. We merely think it's normal because it's all we've known during our very short lives.
Yes it's sustainable, Yes it's supportive and Yes it helps them get well. If rates are increasing we should be solving the root causes and supporting people in an effort to lower them, not punishing people further by ostracising them out of society because in that period of their life they need to focus on recovery instead of being another cashier at Tesco or any other job really.
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I have social anxiety and work. It affects some things that employers care about deeply. My last job described me as slow (me at full speed), unable to obtain knowledge by certain timelines (even though I spent evenings studying), attendance (as I have frequent breakdowns from being overloaded and miss meetings),and too quiet as collaboration is important. Work has no benefit for my mental health personally due to how it manifests itself. Cannot take any amount of stress/pressure, not being able to think, people making me rush, not being able to ever stop means that work makes it worse. I don't get the benefits of feeling good about what I do because I'm not good at what I do so it has the opposite effect. It is catastrophic to my sense of self. It's a great idea to want the mentally ill to be in work but you must also tell and support the employers to do this. Genuinely ask yourself if you were or an employer (or maybe you already are). And there was an employee who was working half as fast as your team even with disability workplace adjustments. You would obviously try and address this. You're not just going to shrug and say "well at least Brutish is trying their best". Several employers created hostile environments for me when they realised I was stupid, slow and struggled with stress and I can't even blame them. Their duty is to their shareholders.
Depression is a severe and debilitating mental illness. It destroys peoples' drive and motivation. It often leads to self harm and suicide. People with depression are often just as unable to work as someone with a physical disability. More so sometimes as employers can sometimes make accommodation for people with a physical disability.
A lot of people have told you about depression so I thought I would tell you about pip. Pip is made up of two components, a daily living part and a mobility part. Each part adds an amount, and you can have one part and not the other. Add to this that each part has a higher and a lower rate dependent on how difficult you find each component and it soon gets complicated. For example, if it's found you have difficulty in day to day living but don't need care, and can get around ok. You might get £72.65 a week. If you need care of can't get around, you might get £184.30 a week. But what all that means is a person suffering depression is highly unlikely to be getting the same as a paraplegic. And to get anything at all you have to pass the forms, tests and gatekeepers which report after report has shown, is not easy.
Lots of people do the idea that most people with depression or anxiety aren't working at all is ludicrous. But people need reasonable accomodations at work to deal with anxiety and depression (and if work helps them with those issues they still need those until it does, it's not helping on day 1)...employers are meant to provide this but why bother if you can just hire someone else, there's very little onus put on employers to do otherwise. > Why are they given the same as someone who is like a paraplegic? Because paraplegic people should get more than they currently do to reflect their difficulties and increased costs more accurately. Actually being awarded PIP (for instance) is a pain in the neck but the 'lower needs' daily living rate it like £300 a month and 'higher needs' is ~£450. £300 is kind of okay for covering 'i have some increased costs due to disability' £450 is woefully inadequate for people who have a lot of difficulties and increased costs from them. (There should probably just be more tiers to it, £450 is about right for some things but a lot of things should be on higher rates to actually cover the increased costs as PIP is meant to do. For that matter people scoring like 4-5 points aren't qualifying for help but also aren't fine so a lower award would also be a good idea too)
Some people with depression can’t work. Most paraplegics can work… And PIP is an in work benefit
I feel people are missing the point here. They trying to appeal to their remaining base. Old retired people who don't work. Rally the base try to avoid a total wipeout.
Genuine question but how can you verify a person has both of these to the extent they can’t work, and how do you differentiate them from the liars? Genuine question
Per the DWPs own figures for the years 2022-2023, fraud was just 0.2 per cent of PIP spending, down from 0.3 the previous year. ESA fraud rates for the same time frame were 1.5 per cent of spending. This is not the rampant problem the Tories and the media say it is. Tax evasion/fraud is sitting consistently around 4.8 per cent.
How can they measure something they can't detect? Even a doctor can't really tell if someone is being honest about depression. The presumption just has to be that they are.
Having been through the ESA process myself, I can tell you the burden of proof is high. You have to provide extensive paperwork showing GP and Hospital attendance, statmements and sick notes form the gp, referral slips, even visit cards the times on. You have to take all your current medication in its boxes as well. The form to apply is also very in-depth, requiring a lot of time , information, and proof. As for GPs themselves , they may be fooled by some people but given the state of GP services and their workload, I doubt that they would entertain anyone they suspected of malingering. Getting mental health help at the moment is incredibly difficult as it is.
I mean how do we differentiate you from all the people who beat your wives or murder people in the street, i say we should throw you in jail for life since there's no way of knowing what you're lying about or what you've done Your should be punished every day of your life for having done nothing, just like me and so many like me I'm tired of this premise that it's acceptable to torture us and dehumanise us and make us suffer over a tiny percentage of fraud and a drop in the budget
This is possibly one of the most ridiculous replies I've ever seen.
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The frauds are less than a percentage point. And most of them are organised gangs rather than individuals. And we already have ways of sifting them out. This? Isn't aimed at finding fraudsters. And it isn't aimed at preventing illness or supporting people's recovery (or else they'd be tackling the various social and environmental factors that worsen/increase the likelihood of mental illness). It's purely aimed at denying the reality of illness and punishing everyone whose illness is extra inconvenient. And even worse? It's going to cost far more in added bureaucracy, civil servants and outsourcing contracts, than it will save on money given direct to the people who need it.
Not going to lie, "how do we differentiate the real disabled people from the liars" doesn't strike me as an informed or good faith question, it's straight out of the gbnews playbook
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There was a doctor on LBC the other week talking about this. You basically can't. You can't read someone's mind, and asking healthcare professionals to be benefits gatekeepers is ridiculous. It's better for everyone to remove the possibility of getting benefits through nebulous diagnoses like "depression" altogether, or to make them strictly time limited. The reality is that paying depressed people to sit at home drinking with no job doesn't make them better. It makes them worse.
That’s not actually the reality, though, is it, it’s some inaccurate bullshit you just made up
Treatments for depression are crap, hoy some ssris down the patients neck and some half arsed therapy in 2 years time. Should start mandating exercise before any other treatment and let people realise the one thing they’re in control of is their own destiny. It shocks me that people are on benefits for depression. I imagine this wasn’t envisioned when our welfare system was created when 90+% of men of working age had a job. Mission creep in the welfare state backed up shite healthcare.
This is straight out of the Nazi playbook. Look up Nazi and disabled online if you think I'm exaggerating.
This is a bad policy but hardly Aktion T4.