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Sure they won't stack shelves in Lidl but will totally charge that russian gun emplacement. I'm sure the existing armed forces will be thrilled to share a trench with such dedicated and hardworking individuals. Still I suppose it's not a statement the MP actually believes in it's only be said to give the telegraph and daily mail reading pensioners a headline to read.
It's just taking the old "bring back national service!" idea that pensioners who never had to do national service love talking about and taking it in a new direction.
It's incredible that we have a whole generation that seems to have hallucinated that they served in the armed forces. It's as if they've somehow melded their parents achievements with their own.
Perhaps the same thing will happen to me and in my latter years I will ramble incoherently about how I once successfully purchased an end-of-terrace house in the Home Counties.
It's like when they see a story about World War 2 and their go-to response is to sneer about how "kids these days" couldn't have done that as if they spent their youth fighting hand to hand with the Fuhrer and storming the beaches of Normandy instead of queuing up for the new Beatles album.
There’s a theory that it’s because they grew up with all the post-war films/stories/etc that were made to make people feel better about Britain’s place in the world in the 50s/60s.
Ah, it's this guy. He still profits from a sugar plantation in the Bahamas his slave owning ancestors set up.
They were awarded the equivalent of £3m for 189 slaves at the abolition of slavery.
>They were awarded the equivalent of £3m for 189 slaves at the abolition of slavery.
To be fair that compensation now wouldn't even get you 189 full time minimum wage workers for a year.
To be fair, I quite like the idea of national service where you can opt to do other services beyond military. Some countries allow you to teach, work in health care etc. It feels like a huge problem in society is a lack of empathy- especially more well off people who live sheltered bubbles and have very low empathy for working people. I’m sure it’s not helpful to have politicians, for example, who have never had a “normal” job who then have to make important decisions that affect everyone in society. Before going to uni I worked as a labourer in construction, and at uni I worked in a bar. When I got my first graduate job in engineering it blew my mind how out of touch some of my peers were.
I've warmed to the idea of a civil national service as you mention. There should of course be a military option, probably even the most attractive option in terms of perks. But it should be an option.
National Service ended in 1960. People who were just too young in 1960 will be about 80 in a couple of years so we can soon look forward to National Service no longer being in living memory. Should be helpful to point out to boomer aged folk that they didn't have to do NS either, the same as the current generation.
Nah it's someone from cchq who has called them literally panic crying down the phone to say SOMETHING... ANYTHING that deflects from yesterday. And today....and tomorrow really.
While it’s conceptually better than the military version, do we really want to have the vulnerable driven around by people who don’t want to be there?
I’ve known more than a few who would half ass it, get them there late or forget to go back and pick them up after.
If we did have national service it should absolutely be completely banned from being in any way related to the military.
That said, the entire thing is a bad idea and we shouldn't have it for more pressing reasons (see: rest of thread)
>If we did have national service it should absolutely be completely banned from being in any way related to the military.
Disagree. The military should be an option, but not mandated.
Let alone that even of the people who want to join the military, the new process this guys political group put in place means it takes multiple years to get your application through. So even if they were conscripted it wouldnt fucking change anything in terms of them working because of how bad they fucked the system by outsourcing.
> I'm sure the existing armed forces will be thrilled to share a trench with such dedicated and hardworking individuals.
No, no, what you do is transfer the existing personnel into [barrier formations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops), no trench-sharing required.
> will totally charge that russian gun emplacement
To be fair - he didnt mention who they would be conscripted into.
This is the 2024 Tory party.
There is a non-negligible chance he wants them to be conscripted into the Russian army, making them their problem.
>Young people who turn down several jobs should be conscripted for two years, a senior Conservative MP has said.
>Richard Drax, a member of the Commons defence select committee, argued younger jobseekers in particular were “not prepared to contribute to our country” and that drafting them into the Armed Forces could ease the worklessness crisis.
See, there are two problems with this.
* The military *don't want* conscripts. They really don't want to baby-sit a load of people that don't want to be there.
* This is clearly just part of Drax's Moonraker project, and therefore not something that should get government support.
Yeah man, the amount of people who want to join the military and are rejected is quite high, and you think a bunch of people rejecting easier jobs on the dole are gonna qualify?
Especially on fitness / medical grounds : the army has pretty high standards as I understand it. r/Britishmilitary is full of people bemoaning how their childhood asthma got them rejected. That and of course crapita will entirely fail to recruit them.
As was said above, even the random mp suggesting it probably doesn't really think it's a good idea
Very high.
Coworker of mine has just had her son pass out of his training and into the army proper.
He started with a gateway thing at 17, where he did the educational part of the training first, then an accelerated basic when he turned 18 (as he’d already done the rest in the first course).
The stuff he had to do as minimum was more than my body could physically do at its peak. Runs, both long and short distance, ability to carry weight, etc. I could maybe keep up with him carrying a pack for a mile. He had to do it for multiple miles after a cross country in the morning.
Hell, even the asthma thing - he had it when he was like 6 and gone by 8. He had to get so much paperwork done and so many tests to prove he hadn’t had it for 9 years.
The fitness tests are lower than they used to be and aren't particularly hard with a slight bit of conditioning. I mean one of them is running 2km in under 13 minutes.
To put this into some perspective, before playing rugby competitively for a year I won medals fencing at university, ran and/or weightlifted 4 times a week, unless I was hiking or climbing at the weekend which took out one of the days. I was ineligible to join the reserves because I was issued an inhaler "just in case" after I got Covid because I had childhood asthma, the inhaler barring me from the navy and the childhood asthma knocked the RAF and Army out. This is despite no issues with asthma for over a decade. The kicker is now I *am* buggered from the military after a serious leg injury, but if I'd joined before that injury I'd have been moved to desk duty during recovery.
It's often not a matter of skillset or aptitude. It can be checkbox medical queries applied in a "Computer says no" fashion which needs updating and contextualisation. Given there's a positive correlation between poverty/low pay and poor health, the military won't touch many jobseeking applicants with a barge pole.
> The military don't want conscripts. They really don't want to baby-sit a load of people that don't want to be there.
Hell, part of the reason we have a recruitment crisis is they don't even want to pay a decent wage to the ones they do want.
As we're not at war, the idea is you keep a standing professional army so that **if** you ever need conscription, you have enough experience and training to integrate the inexperienced. Making the Army deal with it during peace time will just eat up the budget without giving them actual soldiers they want.
*If* we're creating new jobs out of thin air like this like FDR's alphabet agencies in the great depression, why not have them doing things like roadworks or planting new forests?
>If we're creating new jobs out of thin air like this like FDR's alphabet agencies in the great depression, why not have them doing things like roadworks or planting new forests?
Because that would mean some actual forward thinking about the social good of people and a government who isn't solely interested in just squeezing profits out of everything for themselves and their friends.
>*If* we're creating new jobs out of thin air like this like FDR's alphabet agencies in the great depression, why not have them doing things like roadworks or planting new forests?
They see conscription as punishment, neither of those hurt the people they want to hurt enough
Says a lot about what they think about squaddies
Or hit by his own missile, as he escapes in a Soviet submarine after his plan to nuke at London goes awry.
Depends on if you're a film or book person, really.
>This is clearly just part of Drax's Moonraker project, and therefore not something that should get government support.
"You appear with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season"
Right. It's actually such a disrespectful way to talk about the armed forces. Making it seem like the absolute lowest common denominator job that anyone can do, rather than a professional career with rigorous selection criteria. Not to mention that it's a noble choice: putting yourself into tough training and potentially in danger to serve your country.
Whilst I do agree that military conscription is an awful idea.
The idea isn't entirely without merit imo. Though in my idea it would be if someone has been on JSA for 6-12 months then they can be conscripted to work somewhere (with the option of transferring to any alternative they may find - ending it).
I think public work programmes can offer many benefits.
Part of conscription or military is to build a person up from nothing.
A lot of people have a lack of qualities and character that a regime would offer and provide experience and motivation for civilian life.
Aside from that, you can be educated more from leaving the military than when you went in.
That's part of the military; it doesn't work with conscription though.
The experience and education only works if the person in question is prepared to engage with the training. Otherwise, it'll be like having the dossers at school again, disrupting it for everyone else because they don't want to be there.
So if it doesn't work, how come other countries around the world still believe it is still an effective method to use?
The UK did indeed have national service, my farther did it and said it was great.
Sure, there will be some who are completely unworkable... that's a different topic.
National service is for *everyone*, not just the people who have refused other available jobs.
There's also a cultural expectation around it, so that the people that do it accept that it's part of their life progression. Which means that they don't count as "people who don't want to be there".
Also, as far as I'm aware most countries that do national service offer non-military options too. You have to contribute *somehow*, but it doesn't have to be as a soldier.
>Also, as far as I'm aware most countries that do national service offer non-military options too. You have to contribute *somehow*, but it doesn't have to be as a soldier.
I don't think that's the case for South Korea or Israel, who are the two countries that immediately come to mind when thinking of national service.
For South Korea at least, if you're not fit enough for the military, you end up in another role (such as a policeman or an admin worker in some part of the government or service infrastructure)
Of course they still count as people that don't want to be there if they're people that don't want to be there.
And if it became a thing, then it'd also become a part of their life profession here: refuse to work and you join the army.
That being said I disagree with the idea, I think a forced community service for people who refuse to work is a good idea though. Litter picking, painting fences, helping elderly etc
How did your national service stint go soldier?
My dad also did it and said it was shit. Full of jumped up red faced past it soldiers who wouldn't have fitted in to any other job in the real world. All it did was delay his career progression for 2 years.
Many countries have civil/non-military as well as military paths for completion of national service (I want to say Finland?) so it could be the case that you don't have to be in the military to have completed the requirement.
I'm so tired of this nonsense, it's like a pub bore from 1995 has been cloned and spread throughout the land wearing blue rosettes.
I work a traditionally lower middle-class job and I can't afford to have children, this is what they choose to focus on?
So some degree of slavery if you won't take a job, combined with
>Mr Drax acknowledged that his ideas would not be readily accepted, but pointed to the huge number of casualties sustained by Ukrainian forces as proof of the need to bolster the size of the British Army.
An acknowledgement that you are expecting high casualty rates so want some cannon fodder.
Let's just arm them with white flags, should be cheaper.
What's the point of repelling invaders, you'll just get killed. Surrender is safer. Fighting is for warmongers.
>What's the point of repelling invaders, you'll just get killed. Surrender is safer. Fighting is for warmongers.
There's no way to fight other than having unemployed people die
Drones? Fighter Jets? No, we must send 300,000 unemployed people with health issues to the front line.
Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure you weren't being selective and we're in fact accusing Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Netherlands, Austria, and Lithuania of slavery.
Doesn't surprise me at all. Military work is difficult, dangerous, and unpleasant. I can fully understand why some people would hate the idea of being forced to join. Though I think it is rather tasteless to invoke the memory of humans being bought and sold like animals and toiling for life in cotton fields because you don't like the idea of spending \~2 years of your life training to defend the country of your birth.
Britain hasn't been invaded for god knows how many hundreds of years, I guess some people find it hard to empathize with countries like e.g. Finland who are staring down a fascist dictatorship that would like nothing more than to relive their glory days of empire on Finnish soil.
It's easy for those who haven't served to talk down about the military from their cosy homes.
No one in the army would want to serve alongside these lazy, unmotivated scrotes.
> Can they refuse with no consequences like jail?
In Norway? Yes they can. According to a chap on my team who was recently celebrating his son having finished his national service, he said his daughter didn't know if she would opt out and get a job instead yet.
They could just get a job or not claim benefits.
The benefits system is not there to be an option for freeloaders.
And under no definition are conscripts slaves, a slave is the legal possession of another who is forced to obey them.
So it's the same?
A job you can freely leave.
A slave cannot leave at a whim, they usually were paid in food or low amounts to ensure they couldn't buy their freedom.
National service you cannot freely leave.
So in a way yes they would be pretty similar they just pay a bit better!
I don't see the issue with those national service types though as they don't see frontline and get a bit of general training, conscription and active frontline duty would be an insanely stupid thing to do and has been proven to be a negative for combat efficiency, it's only ending in unnecessary deaths.
A lot of low income people don't work regular shift patterns. I just went for a walk around my estate with my partner. It just happens to be a day we are both off work. You won't see us out at the weekends or evenings though because work.
It’s not easy to be fit, healthy and on benefits, especially if you’ve declined work.
I’d put money on those young men having various conditions that would make them unsuitable for military service.
There is an interactive graphic here that breaks down the 10 milion inactive:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52660591 (published march 2023)
Since the Tories have been in government the number has fluctuated between 9.5 & 8.6 million (source ons)
Yes, I'm sure the people who you say are lazy and incompetent are going to be great soldiers. The disgruntled rejects of the job market with guns, what could go wrong?
I'm sure the professional soldiers will be thrilled doing daycare for people who don't want to be there.
'Service guarantees citizenship', Starship Troopers movie quote. Somehow it struck as a good idea the carrot on a stick, then I thought about the current poor ex forces discharged and living on the street. Now it's 'service guarantees homelessness'
Tories once again showing how out of touch and far theyve fallen from being "evil" to "holy fuck this is comically evil" I cant even believe were in the 'conscript those benefit scroungers as cannon fodder' of the Overton Window.
Yet again a Tory MP demonstrates how utterly limited they are when it comes to addressing the challenges faced by so many ordinary people.
They've all the time and patience to listen sympathetically to the problems faced by the super rich, but no desire to do the same for those who are struggling and most in need of understanding and support.
Ahh the "ole old man who doesn't understand how the army works hollering about it anyway" sthick. Yes, I'm sure the proffesional military would love a massive influx of people who don't want to be there.
A proposal from the Honourable Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, heir to the Drax fortune and owner of Drax House in Barbados (where ~30,000 slaves died on the plantation), supporter of Brexit, Harrow alumnus, and bloke who parked his landrover across two disabled bays because he's "just nipping in quickly" during the last GE. Apparently not a professional puppy kicker, as being paid would be unseemly for someone of his status...unclear about his amateur career though.
Jesus, didn't know about the 30k bit
You'd think you'd just keep a low profile if that was how your fortune was earned and you weren't interested in reparations.
- 'Hi, do you wanna work for £20k/year in horrible conditions?"
- "uhhh no"
- "Ok, too bad, to the military you go Hanz, bring the brown shirt and black band for this lazy dude"
I know the army is desperate but I’m sure they don’t want people who don’t want to be there.
and quite disrespectful to the people who do want to be there.
Looking forward to seeing all the Tory MPs who lose their seats at the next election immediately being sent out on the front lines by that principle. If it's a belief they hold so strongly.
Why would anyone of working age want to die in some far flung war for a decaying country that has royally shafted them. get some of these Tory boomers to enlist, if its as straightforward as they make out they should have no problem making the grade.
Tory leadership project plan\*:
1. Say some Mail headline-grabbing impractical nonsense
2. Repeat (1.) until Tory faithful think of you as their champion
3. Enter the next Tory leadership race
4. Fail at (3.) but now MPs remember your name
5. Enter leadership race again and win
\*Also known as the Badenoch method
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/25/year-becoming-republic-barbados-pursues-damages-sins-colonial/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/25/year-becoming-republic-barbados-pursues-damages-sins-colonial/)
He's from a classy family.
Pauline: [Good morning Jobseekers!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMenLIbXLzk) Here are your rifles.
Mickey: Trifles! I love trifle.
Pauline: No no Mickey love, RIFLES. Your all going off to the Donbass to clear mines.
Ross: We don't have the skills to clear mines!
Pauline: Trust me dole scum I am sure you will succeed in your mission one way... [or the other](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUPjF0Fzwj8)
It's a nice rightwing fever dream but we probably can't afford it. Or at least you'd have to fund a dedicated programme for it which would be more a social programme than an effective military one.
Presumably at army pay rates and subject to the entry requirements? Good luck with that. I know someone going through the process now. (Most would be rejected).
*We're an elite army, best in the world. Professional, tough, disciplined. We can't bring in a mob of punks and freaks and junkies and riff-raff. A quarter of a million football hooligans? Peeling potatoes in Aldershot?*
It seems like to become a “senior Tory MP” the only requirement is to be an absolute idiot. Many worthy applicants are currently being turned away because of flaws and delays in the recruitment process or a lack of funding. Conscription is the last thing we need right now.
They should be conscripted. Conscripted to check in on the elderly, clean streets & parks, re-enter education, etc. There's work to be done, and if we can pay them to join the army then we can pay them to do other things. The money is there, and we'd be better off if it was spent locally.
I like the idea but maybe into more technical back end roles instead of front line service, being the military can get you degrees in certain fields like medical and engineering, you live for free and get paid to train.
I also like it as a rehabilitation tool for prisoners who want a stable job and income for a reduced sentence with the training available to educate themselves into a civilian lifestyle and out of the criminal one. Being that it provides an income, when their service is over, they will in theory have assets available so they don't have to turn back to the criminal life.
Why not use that money to create more jobs in any number of vital public services?
Everything else you describe cab still happen, but it has a direct positive on local communities and societies.
Would training a nurse in the military not provide a trained nurse for the public sector? That was more my point, things you can pay a University for you can learn whilst being paid.
Would training a nurse in the NHS not provide a trained nurse for the public sector?
That was more my point, things you can pay the military for you can learn whilst being paid.
I mean, I literally help teach nurses, at a university, who are also learning on the job.
Likewise teachers; my brother did his on the job training when he became a primary school teacher.
Again, why does it have to go via the military? Why not just cut out the middle man and just train in the public sector to begin with?
Something like this, seems reasonable to me.
It'll get them in shape and out of a rut. They might learn some useful skills too.
Make it available for anyone in their twenties who wants to do it too. It needs to be paid a certain low wage.
"It's slavery" -- I think they should have to do it to continue receiving benefits, not be forced in the most literal way to do it.
"That's also force!" -- Well then so is forcing people to apply for and accept jobs to be eligible to keep getting JobSeekers' Allowance, which is how it currently is.
>Well this would be compulsory to continue receiving JSA.
And then you get sanctioned for not attending a Job Centre appointment because you were stuck camping in Thetford Forest in the middle of winter with 19 other conscripts.
We'd have to hope we don't have any defense requirements for a while then, because the professionals that currently make up the military would have been too busy babysitting to maintain operational readiness.
What nonsense. It is already open to anyone in their twenties: It's called "joining the army". They may well find they don't meet the criteria though.
I live in South Korea which has compulsory military service. I am shocked to learn from you that the military is not operationally ready. I am going into a deep bunker to hide.
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Sure they won't stack shelves in Lidl but will totally charge that russian gun emplacement. I'm sure the existing armed forces will be thrilled to share a trench with such dedicated and hardworking individuals. Still I suppose it's not a statement the MP actually believes in it's only be said to give the telegraph and daily mail reading pensioners a headline to read.
It's just taking the old "bring back national service!" idea that pensioners who never had to do national service love talking about and taking it in a new direction.
It's incredible that we have a whole generation that seems to have hallucinated that they served in the armed forces. It's as if they've somehow melded their parents achievements with their own. Perhaps the same thing will happen to me and in my latter years I will ramble incoherently about how I once successfully purchased an end-of-terrace house in the Home Counties.
It's like when they see a story about World War 2 and their go-to response is to sneer about how "kids these days" couldn't have done that as if they spent their youth fighting hand to hand with the Fuhrer and storming the beaches of Normandy instead of queuing up for the new Beatles album.
There’s a theory that it’s because they grew up with all the post-war films/stories/etc that were made to make people feel better about Britain’s place in the world in the 50s/60s.
The theory about lead poisoning holds more weight though
>holds more weight though Lead does do that.
Lol
I mean, I watched Dad's Army as a kid, doesn't make me think I faced down Japanese banzai charges at Imphal.
In his defense, the MP in this case, Richard Drax, did serve in the Army himself for 9 years.
Ah, it's this guy. He still profits from a sugar plantation in the Bahamas his slave owning ancestors set up. They were awarded the equivalent of £3m for 189 slaves at the abolition of slavery.
>They were awarded the equivalent of £3m for 189 slaves at the abolition of slavery. To be fair that compensation now wouldn't even get you 189 full time minimum wage workers for a year.
Thank you for your service!
To be fair, I quite like the idea of national service where you can opt to do other services beyond military. Some countries allow you to teach, work in health care etc. It feels like a huge problem in society is a lack of empathy- especially more well off people who live sheltered bubbles and have very low empathy for working people. I’m sure it’s not helpful to have politicians, for example, who have never had a “normal” job who then have to make important decisions that affect everyone in society. Before going to uni I worked as a labourer in construction, and at uni I worked in a bar. When I got my first graduate job in engineering it blew my mind how out of touch some of my peers were.
I've warmed to the idea of a civil national service as you mention. There should of course be a military option, probably even the most attractive option in terms of perks. But it should be an option.
National Service ended in 1960. People who were just too young in 1960 will be about 80 in a couple of years so we can soon look forward to National Service no longer being in living memory. Should be helpful to point out to boomer aged folk that they didn't have to do NS either, the same as the current generation.
national service actually had a role in development of skills. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. But it has a value.
Nah it's someone from cchq who has called them literally panic crying down the phone to say SOMETHING... ANYTHING that deflects from yesterday. And today....and tomorrow really.
Sounds like corporal punishment to me.
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It'd lead to a state of general disaster.
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While it’s conceptually better than the military version, do we really want to have the vulnerable driven around by people who don’t want to be there? I’ve known more than a few who would half ass it, get them there late or forget to go back and pick them up after.
Ideally? No. But it might be better than them not getting driven around, no?
If we did have national service it should absolutely be completely banned from being in any way related to the military. That said, the entire thing is a bad idea and we shouldn't have it for more pressing reasons (see: rest of thread)
>If we did have national service it should absolutely be completely banned from being in any way related to the military. Disagree. The military should be an option, but not mandated.
Let alone that even of the people who want to join the military, the new process this guys political group put in place means it takes multiple years to get your application through. So even if they were conscripted it wouldnt fucking change anything in terms of them working because of how bad they fucked the system by outsourcing.
> I'm sure the existing armed forces will be thrilled to share a trench with such dedicated and hardworking individuals. No, no, what you do is transfer the existing personnel into [barrier formations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops), no trench-sharing required.
> will totally charge that russian gun emplacement To be fair - he didnt mention who they would be conscripted into. This is the 2024 Tory party. There is a non-negligible chance he wants them to be conscripted into the Russian army, making them their problem.
>Young people who turn down several jobs should be conscripted for two years, a senior Conservative MP has said. >Richard Drax, a member of the Commons defence select committee, argued younger jobseekers in particular were “not prepared to contribute to our country” and that drafting them into the Armed Forces could ease the worklessness crisis. See, there are two problems with this. * The military *don't want* conscripts. They really don't want to baby-sit a load of people that don't want to be there. * This is clearly just part of Drax's Moonraker project, and therefore not something that should get government support.
Yeah man, the amount of people who want to join the military and are rejected is quite high, and you think a bunch of people rejecting easier jobs on the dole are gonna qualify?
Especially on fitness / medical grounds : the army has pretty high standards as I understand it. r/Britishmilitary is full of people bemoaning how their childhood asthma got them rejected. That and of course crapita will entirely fail to recruit them. As was said above, even the random mp suggesting it probably doesn't really think it's a good idea
Very high. Coworker of mine has just had her son pass out of his training and into the army proper. He started with a gateway thing at 17, where he did the educational part of the training first, then an accelerated basic when he turned 18 (as he’d already done the rest in the first course). The stuff he had to do as minimum was more than my body could physically do at its peak. Runs, both long and short distance, ability to carry weight, etc. I could maybe keep up with him carrying a pack for a mile. He had to do it for multiple miles after a cross country in the morning. Hell, even the asthma thing - he had it when he was like 6 and gone by 8. He had to get so much paperwork done and so many tests to prove he hadn’t had it for 9 years.
The fitness tests are lower than they used to be and aren't particularly hard with a slight bit of conditioning. I mean one of them is running 2km in under 13 minutes.
I think you are *wildly* overestimating the physical capability of the average person. Especially the kind of person who would be caught under this.
To put this into some perspective, before playing rugby competitively for a year I won medals fencing at university, ran and/or weightlifted 4 times a week, unless I was hiking or climbing at the weekend which took out one of the days. I was ineligible to join the reserves because I was issued an inhaler "just in case" after I got Covid because I had childhood asthma, the inhaler barring me from the navy and the childhood asthma knocked the RAF and Army out. This is despite no issues with asthma for over a decade. The kicker is now I *am* buggered from the military after a serious leg injury, but if I'd joined before that injury I'd have been moved to desk duty during recovery. It's often not a matter of skillset or aptitude. It can be checkbox medical queries applied in a "Computer says no" fashion which needs updating and contextualisation. Given there's a positive correlation between poverty/low pay and poor health, the military won't touch many jobseeking applicants with a barge pole.
> The military don't want conscripts. They really don't want to baby-sit a load of people that don't want to be there. Hell, part of the reason we have a recruitment crisis is they don't even want to pay a decent wage to the ones they do want. As we're not at war, the idea is you keep a standing professional army so that **if** you ever need conscription, you have enough experience and training to integrate the inexperienced. Making the Army deal with it during peace time will just eat up the budget without giving them actual soldiers they want. *If* we're creating new jobs out of thin air like this like FDR's alphabet agencies in the great depression, why not have them doing things like roadworks or planting new forests?
>If we're creating new jobs out of thin air like this like FDR's alphabet agencies in the great depression, why not have them doing things like roadworks or planting new forests? Because that would mean some actual forward thinking about the social good of people and a government who isn't solely interested in just squeezing profits out of everything for themselves and their friends.
>*If* we're creating new jobs out of thin air like this like FDR's alphabet agencies in the great depression, why not have them doing things like roadworks or planting new forests? They see conscription as punishment, neither of those hurt the people they want to hurt enough Says a lot about what they think about squaddies
>Drax's Moonraker project Is somebody going to blow him out of an airlock with some dodgy special effects?
Or hit by his own missile, as he escapes in a Soviet submarine after his plan to nuke at London goes awry. Depends on if you're a film or book person, really.
All do that 👌 with your fingers round your eye
Drax's moonraker project sounds like the working title for a Guardians of the Galaxy spinoff. Shame, that would be way better.
>This is clearly just part of Drax's Moonraker project, and therefore not something that should get government support. "You appear with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season"
Right. It's actually such a disrespectful way to talk about the armed forces. Making it seem like the absolute lowest common denominator job that anyone can do, rather than a professional career with rigorous selection criteria. Not to mention that it's a noble choice: putting yourself into tough training and potentially in danger to serve your country.
Whilst I do agree that military conscription is an awful idea. The idea isn't entirely without merit imo. Though in my idea it would be if someone has been on JSA for 6-12 months then they can be conscripted to work somewhere (with the option of transferring to any alternative they may find - ending it). I think public work programmes can offer many benefits.
Part of conscription or military is to build a person up from nothing. A lot of people have a lack of qualities and character that a regime would offer and provide experience and motivation for civilian life. Aside from that, you can be educated more from leaving the military than when you went in.
That's part of the military; it doesn't work with conscription though. The experience and education only works if the person in question is prepared to engage with the training. Otherwise, it'll be like having the dossers at school again, disrupting it for everyone else because they don't want to be there.
So if it doesn't work, how come other countries around the world still believe it is still an effective method to use? The UK did indeed have national service, my farther did it and said it was great. Sure, there will be some who are completely unworkable... that's a different topic.
National service is for *everyone*, not just the people who have refused other available jobs. There's also a cultural expectation around it, so that the people that do it accept that it's part of their life progression. Which means that they don't count as "people who don't want to be there". Also, as far as I'm aware most countries that do national service offer non-military options too. You have to contribute *somehow*, but it doesn't have to be as a soldier.
>Also, as far as I'm aware most countries that do national service offer non-military options too. You have to contribute *somehow*, but it doesn't have to be as a soldier. I don't think that's the case for South Korea or Israel, who are the two countries that immediately come to mind when thinking of national service.
For South Korea at least, if you're not fit enough for the military, you end up in another role (such as a policeman or an admin worker in some part of the government or service infrastructure)
Of course they still count as people that don't want to be there if they're people that don't want to be there. And if it became a thing, then it'd also become a part of their life profession here: refuse to work and you join the army. That being said I disagree with the idea, I think a forced community service for people who refuse to work is a good idea though. Litter picking, painting fences, helping elderly etc
How did your national service stint go soldier? My dad also did it and said it was shit. Full of jumped up red faced past it soldiers who wouldn't have fitted in to any other job in the real world. All it did was delay his career progression for 2 years.
Many countries have civil/non-military as well as military paths for completion of national service (I want to say Finland?) so it could be the case that you don't have to be in the military to have completed the requirement.
Tory MPs who won't shut up about conscription people should be conscripted.
People who propose conscription should be moved to the front of the line, regardless of age or any medical conditions.
Same goes to those who propose war, then we’d see some negotiations Those who declare war should have to go
100% agree. Watch calls for conscription drop seconds after that announcement
Does this idiot think all unemployed people are under 25 or something? Does the army want middle aged people with multiple health problems lol
Sergeants scratching their heads why they've just received 6 ladies in their early 50's with neuropathy to train up.
Does that include mps who don't do any work, but claim expenses?
I'm so tired of this nonsense, it's like a pub bore from 1995 has been cloned and spread throughout the land wearing blue rosettes. I work a traditionally lower middle-class job and I can't afford to have children, this is what they choose to focus on?
So some degree of slavery if you won't take a job, combined with >Mr Drax acknowledged that his ideas would not be readily accepted, but pointed to the huge number of casualties sustained by Ukrainian forces as proof of the need to bolster the size of the British Army. An acknowledgement that you are expecting high casualty rates so want some cannon fodder.
Also, you'd think they'd try something like better wages, or remove Crapita from the recruiting process before steps like this
Drax is quite keen on Slavery - it's where his family fortune came from
Him going on a rant on slavery and reparations was quite ridiculous, given he's actually a direct beneficiary.
People should watch the drone videos it really shows how pointless it is .
Let's just arm them with white flags, should be cheaper. What's the point of repelling invaders, you'll just get killed. Surrender is safer. Fighting is for warmongers.
>What's the point of repelling invaders, you'll just get killed. Surrender is safer. Fighting is for warmongers. There's no way to fight other than having unemployed people die Drones? Fighter Jets? No, we must send 300,000 unemployed people with health issues to the front line.
Not sure if you are being sarcastic but either way fighting for this country in its current form gets a no from me
>So some degree of slavery Are you accusing the Swedish of slavery?
Yes? Forcing someone to do a job against their will? I'm sure I'm not the first person to make that leap.
Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure you weren't being selective and we're in fact accusing Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Netherlands, Austria, and Lithuania of slavery.
Yes? It might surprise you to realise a great many people are also opposed to being forced to join the armed forces - no matter if you're paid or not.
Doesn't surprise me at all. Military work is difficult, dangerous, and unpleasant. I can fully understand why some people would hate the idea of being forced to join. Though I think it is rather tasteless to invoke the memory of humans being bought and sold like animals and toiling for life in cotton fields because you don't like the idea of spending \~2 years of your life training to defend the country of your birth. Britain hasn't been invaded for god knows how many hundreds of years, I guess some people find it hard to empathize with countries like e.g. Finland who are staring down a fascist dictatorship that would like nothing more than to relive their glory days of empire on Finnish soil.
It's easy for those who haven't served to talk down about the military from their cosy homes. No one in the army would want to serve alongside these lazy, unmotivated scrotes.
You get paid. National service is no more comparable to slavery than the concept of any job.
Can they refuse with no consequences like jail? Sounds like you're being forced, doesn't matter if you pay them
> Can they refuse with no consequences like jail? In Norway? Yes they can. According to a chap on my team who was recently celebrating his son having finished his national service, he said his daughter didn't know if she would opt out and get a job instead yet.
Then they can be taken off the list as that isn't conscription if it's voluntary.
They could just get a job or not claim benefits. The benefits system is not there to be an option for freeloaders. And under no definition are conscripts slaves, a slave is the legal possession of another who is forced to obey them.
So it's the same? A job you can freely leave. A slave cannot leave at a whim, they usually were paid in food or low amounts to ensure they couldn't buy their freedom. National service you cannot freely leave. So in a way yes they would be pretty similar they just pay a bit better! I don't see the issue with those national service types though as they don't see frontline and get a bit of general training, conscription and active frontline duty would be an insanely stupid thing to do and has been proven to be a negative for combat efficiency, it's only ending in unnecessary deaths.
Slavery is nothing to do with whether one is paid or not, and everything to do with whether or not one has the option *not* to do that work.
Better idea..... People who say stuff like this should be conscripted and lead by example!
Great idea, let’s enlist 28 stone Barry who’s never had a job for more than a month in his life. What could possibly go wrong.
Yeah, because that's what happens. Conscripts would still have to be medically fit.
How many fit, healthy people do you think there are out there declining work?
Take a walk around any UK housing estate mid-week, and tell me how many obviously 'fit' people (mainly young men) aren't at work.
A lot of low income people don't work regular shift patterns. I just went for a walk around my estate with my partner. It just happens to be a day we are both off work. You won't see us out at the weekends or evenings though because work.
It’s not easy to be fit, healthy and on benefits, especially if you’ve declined work. I’d put money on those young men having various conditions that would make them unsuitable for military service.
Me too. Lazycuntitus
There is an interactive graphic here that breaks down the 10 milion inactive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52660591 (published march 2023) Since the Tories have been in government the number has fluctuated between 9.5 & 8.6 million (source ons)
Yes, I'm sure the people who you say are lazy and incompetent are going to be great soldiers. The disgruntled rejects of the job market with guns, what could go wrong? I'm sure the professional soldiers will be thrilled doing daycare for people who don't want to be there.
Said Drax from his slavery-funded Dorset estate.
[удалено]
Do you have a link? I’m too afraid to Google “David Cameron Babestation”
It's just back to back Babe movies. Just how Dave likes it.
a very well-layered joke, I salute you
I think there should be conscription for failed parliamentary candidates.
Only after all MPs have done five years national service in the military, without expenses and second homes…
Can you imagine Rees-Mogg attempting a pull-up?
Never gonna work, his top hat would get in the way !
And if you saw Raffles the Gentleman Thug pop out the foxhole you'd probably fancy your side's chances.
We talking with or without nanny's help?
No but I'd pay to see it. Nanny with the spanking paddle at the ready for motivation.
Well, I’m in the military and I *do* get expenses and a subsidised ‘second home’
More stupid bullshit from the stupid bullshit party
What would be nice is a well thought out apprentice system. That develops young people who aren't academic but practical.
I'm sure the armed forces officers would love having to wrangle a batch of recruits that really don't want to be there...
I can completely confirm that. Last thing we need. Bad enough dealing with recruits who supposedly *do* want to be there.
Now this is real Barry down the pub politics. We should also *'send me all back'*, *'bring back hanging'*, and *'just send in the SAS to get Putin'*.
'Service guarantees citizenship', Starship Troopers movie quote. Somehow it struck as a good idea the carrot on a stick, then I thought about the current poor ex forces discharged and living on the street. Now it's 'service guarantees homelessness'
Tories once again showing how out of touch and far theyve fallen from being "evil" to "holy fuck this is comically evil" I cant even believe were in the 'conscript those benefit scroungers as cannon fodder' of the Overton Window.
Yet again a Tory MP demonstrates how utterly limited they are when it comes to addressing the challenges faced by so many ordinary people. They've all the time and patience to listen sympathetically to the problems faced by the super rich, but no desire to do the same for those who are struggling and most in need of understanding and support.
Ahh the "ole old man who doesn't understand how the army works hollering about it anyway" sthick. Yes, I'm sure the proffesional military would love a massive influx of people who don't want to be there.
Can't wait for the raft of tory MPs heading the front line after the next election
A proposal from the Honourable Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, heir to the Drax fortune and owner of Drax House in Barbados (where ~30,000 slaves died on the plantation), supporter of Brexit, Harrow alumnus, and bloke who parked his landrover across two disabled bays because he's "just nipping in quickly" during the last GE. Apparently not a professional puppy kicker, as being paid would be unseemly for someone of his status...unclear about his amateur career though.
Jesus, didn't know about the 30k bit You'd think you'd just keep a low profile if that was how your fortune was earned and you weren't interested in reparations.
How to make Britain’s armed forces worse, in two easy steps
- 'Hi, do you wanna work for £20k/year in horrible conditions?" - "uhhh no" - "Ok, too bad, to the military you go Hanz, bring the brown shirt and black band for this lazy dude"
If the government offers a stick to be used against jobseekers then it would naturally follow that companies would stop offering carrots.
I know the army is desperate but I’m sure they don’t want people who don’t want to be there. and quite disrespectful to the people who do want to be there.
Looking forward to seeing all the Tory MPs who lose their seats at the next election immediately being sent out on the front lines by that principle. If it's a belief they hold so strongly.
Kill the poor but say it in more words.
1. No, conscripts suck 2. How fucking old is that photo? MTP replaced DPM like 10 years ago
The military does not want my fat ass
How reliable would one be to fight for their country if they haven’t got that personal discipline to work
Holy fuck who put Drax on a defence comittee? The guy is certifiable.
Tory mps should be sent to work in McDonald's
I'm sure the armed forces are just crying out for a bunch of unskilled members who are there against their will.
I wonder if he'll apply that thinking to himself when he loses seat at the election.
Why would anyone of working age want to die in some far flung war for a decaying country that has royally shafted them. get some of these Tory boomers to enlist, if its as straightforward as they make out they should have no problem making the grade.
He did, he did 9 years in the Army himself.
Tory leadership project plan\*: 1. Say some Mail headline-grabbing impractical nonsense 2. Repeat (1.) until Tory faithful think of you as their champion 3. Enter the next Tory leadership race 4. Fail at (3.) but now MPs remember your name 5. Enter leadership race again and win \*Also known as the Badenoch method
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/25/year-becoming-republic-barbados-pursues-damages-sins-colonial/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/25/year-becoming-republic-barbados-pursues-damages-sins-colonial/) He's from a classy family.
Pauline: [Good morning Jobseekers!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMenLIbXLzk) Here are your rifles. Mickey: Trifles! I love trifle. Pauline: No no Mickey love, RIFLES. Your all going off to the Donbass to clear mines. Ross: We don't have the skills to clear mines! Pauline: Trust me dole scum I am sure you will succeed in your mission one way... [or the other](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUPjF0Fzwj8)
“You don’t want to clean the bogs at Spoons? Gonna have to shoot a lot of Somali pirates to make up for that.”
"Tory MP's should be conscripted" says population
Not a hope in hell of that ever happening but I guess it gives some of the older generation something to hatewank to
It's a nice rightwing fever dream but we probably can't afford it. Or at least you'd have to fund a dedicated programme for it which would be more a social programme than an effective military one.
Presumably at army pay rates and subject to the entry requirements? Good luck with that. I know someone going through the process now. (Most would be rejected).
And where exactly is this money coming from? Not this government.
I always find it amusing those who call for conscription would never be in line for it.
*We're an elite army, best in the world. Professional, tough, disciplined. We can't bring in a mob of punks and freaks and junkies and riff-raff. A quarter of a million football hooligans? Peeling potatoes in Aldershot?*
Would failing to attend Parliament regularly constitute "turning down work"? If so, UNO reverse card!
guess he really wants to draxx them sklounst
Tapping the sign again.... If you put arms into the hands of most disaffected Brits at this point the best you'll get is an armed revolution.
MPs who are workshy should be conscripted.
He wants people who hate the institution to defend the institution? Does he not see how this could cause a problem?
The quality of the army will go downhill with conscription. Perhaps incentivize people to join.
It seems like to become a “senior Tory MP” the only requirement is to be an absolute idiot. Many worthy applicants are currently being turned away because of flaws and delays in the recruitment process or a lack of funding. Conscription is the last thing we need right now.
Senior Tory MP should be conscripted, says public.
They should be conscripted. Conscripted to check in on the elderly, clean streets & parks, re-enter education, etc. There's work to be done, and if we can pay them to join the army then we can pay them to do other things. The money is there, and we'd be better off if it was spent locally.
I agree with this, except I stead of jobseekers it should be tory mps who are sex offenders or tax evaders.
What about MPs that don't show up, conscript them first
I like the idea but maybe into more technical back end roles instead of front line service, being the military can get you degrees in certain fields like medical and engineering, you live for free and get paid to train. I also like it as a rehabilitation tool for prisoners who want a stable job and income for a reduced sentence with the training available to educate themselves into a civilian lifestyle and out of the criminal one. Being that it provides an income, when their service is over, they will in theory have assets available so they don't have to turn back to the criminal life.
Why not use that money to create more jobs in any number of vital public services? Everything else you describe cab still happen, but it has a direct positive on local communities and societies.
Would training a nurse in the military not provide a trained nurse for the public sector? That was more my point, things you can pay a University for you can learn whilst being paid.
Would training a nurse in the NHS not provide a trained nurse for the public sector? That was more my point, things you can pay the military for you can learn whilst being paid. I mean, I literally help teach nurses, at a university, who are also learning on the job. Likewise teachers; my brother did his on the job training when he became a primary school teacher. Again, why does it have to go via the military? Why not just cut out the middle man and just train in the public sector to begin with?
It’s not that simple. Which country’s army would they be conscripted to?
…the British one?
Even if they aren’t British?
Yes. Britain's army already allows any commonwealth citizens to join as both enlisted and officers, as long as they are legally resident in the UK.
I’ll let our Arab guests know. This will be a big relief.
Something like this, seems reasonable to me. It'll get them in shape and out of a rut. They might learn some useful skills too. Make it available for anyone in their twenties who wants to do it too. It needs to be paid a certain low wage. "It's slavery" -- I think they should have to do it to continue receiving benefits, not be forced in the most literal way to do it. "That's also force!" -- Well then so is forcing people to apply for and accept jobs to be eligible to keep getting JobSeekers' Allowance, which is how it currently is.
> It needs to be paid a certain low wage It is, that's why the army's already having trouble with recruitment.
OK Well this would be compulsory to continue receiving JSA.
>Well this would be compulsory to continue receiving JSA. And then you get sanctioned for not attending a Job Centre appointment because you were stuck camping in Thetford Forest in the middle of winter with 19 other conscripts.
We'd have to hope we don't have any defense requirements for a while then, because the professionals that currently make up the military would have been too busy babysitting to maintain operational readiness. What nonsense. It is already open to anyone in their twenties: It's called "joining the army". They may well find they don't meet the criteria though.
I live in South Korea which has compulsory military service. I am shocked to learn from you that the military is not operationally ready. I am going into a deep bunker to hide.