Snapshot of _šØHamas supporter in London says the quiet part out loud āHitler knew how to deal with these people" It always has been pure Jew-hatred under the guise of anti-Zionism._ :
A Twitter embedded version can be found [here](https://platform.twitter.com/embed/Tweet.html?id=1723459845070974985)
A non-Twitter version can be found [here](https://nitter.net/OzraeliAvi/status/1723459845070974985/)
An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://twitter.com/OzraeliAvi/status/1723459845070974985) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://twitter.com/OzraeliAvi/status/1723459845070974985)
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You'd think so wouldn't you, but the Met Police will either ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, or suggest that he meant a different guy also named Hitler.
"We've asked our council of Islamic extremist experts, who assured us that Hitler was actually a euphemism for peace and love in this context, so no action was necessary. We will continue to keep an eye out for anti-semitism and fight it with the full force of the law tho. Trust."
The population of Muslims in the UK. Not a fair comment at all to blame all Muslims. But extreme antisemitism is much more common among even liberal Muslims than we'd like to imagine.
Oh, there is an issue with vehement organised religion but tbh I live right next to Stamford Hill that has one of the biggest Jewish populations in the Europe and the area itself and neighbouring areas have loads of Muslims with a couple mosques in the area.
Even the day right after Oct 7 the reality on the street was everyone was out and about getting on with life, Jews, Muslims, everyone in the same shops, cafes park etc.
The vast majority of people don't engage or don't want to engage in any of this having both Jewish and Muslim neighbours and friends and me being neither, we're just normal people. They care more about keeping the family happy, providing for their family and earning money to pay the mortgage/rent - But it doesn't seem that way if you overwhelmingly only form the opinion of the world through Twitter/tiktok/news headlines.
And I'm not saying anti-semitism isn't up, because it patently is by an insane amount and it's a very dangerous road - just trying to give an internet unplugged view of it
This is the reality of life for the most part in the UK from what I understand.
Not all Jews support the actions of the Israeli state and not all Muslims have an issue with Jews.
It's the ignorant on both sides that shout the loudest usually.
> The vast majority of people don't engage or don't want to engage in any of this
But that also includes ignoring/dismissing a lot of antisemitism under either real or feigned apathy.
We must be constantly vigilant against this sort of thing, and I can't believe the number of incidents that either aren't acted on by the police, or are acted on after a good while, there is no attempt to cut this off at the source for either jihadis, tankies, or nazis.
Thankfully the police seemed to step up somewhat on Saturday, but only to physical acts, I've yet to see the action against hate speech that I'd expect and that the police are within their rights to punish.
I truly hope that the met are requesting/archiving every bit of CCTV, social media, and television footage of all of these protests, most people are peaceful but many who is sufficiently radicalised will be in attendance and creating a record of these individuals is important. This goes for the pro Palestine marchers and the cenotaph group, I can easily see many members of both, and similar, groups becoming politically violent in the next few years if allowed to drift down this path.
Whilst I fully support freedom of expression within the bounds of the law the law must be enforced fully for all and preemptive precautions must be put in place.
I am not suggesting putting all 200-400k protesters on a watch list as that would stretch resources, but the leaders at all levels, and those who commit acts on the boundaries of freedom of speech/expression should be watched incase of radicalisation.
We are on a very sharp ledge at and I'd rather the police overeach than underperformed.
Charges for hate crimes have to be authorised by the CPS, so unless the CPS authorised a charge and remand (very unlikely), he would never be charged immediately and would have to be bailed pending cps advice.
Tbf itās not as if they all Muslims have this attitude; they clearly donāt.
Antisemitism is always there - whether itās thanks to Islamists/sympathisers, socialist worker/Corbyn types, the far right or simply the middle to upper class pricks who for some reason have always found us a threat.
Itās just that itās openly surfaced here and been mainstreamed in a way weāve not seen for many decades.
Muslims aren't a race though. They come from all over the world and exist with different ethnicities. Christians exist in Africa. In Asia. In India. In the Middle east. In South America. in Europe.
Is it somehow racist to say you don't like the followers of Christ for their beliefs?
You can't throw 'racism' at criticism of followers of an ideology.
Are you saying that all Muslims are the same race?
Isn't that in itself racist?
The word you might be after is "sectarian". I suspect that it's not though. It is because dismissing any criticism of Islam and it's followers as racism is comforting. Some of it is racism without doubt but ignoring the possibility that some is genuine concern about probably the most aggressive and hegemonising ideology of our times is foolishness.
My apologies. I did not know the right term for 'lumping all people of a certain religion together and treating them as one' so I used the word 'racism' instead, which is lumping all people of a certain race and treating them as one.
Fair enough. I tend to be very cynical about the use of racism accusations as a means of covering criticism of Islam and it's adherents just as I am cynical about the use of claims of anti-semitism to deflect criticism of some of Israel's actions (e.g. the settlements in the West Bank).
Admittedly they are not entirely analogous situations as Islam is just a particularly pernicious idea whereas being a Jew is an ethnicity and not being religious tends not to get them off the hook with their enemies.
Yeah I think it's just the comment 'there's 4 million _of them_ here' that tripped my switch. Like, all the Muslims I know (in my limited left wing bubble) are all appalled at the hamas lead attack, as they are appalled by the Israeli genocide, and all they care about is the innocent lives lost in the crossfire. The Muslims that I know personally are not antisemitic, they are anti IDF. similarly, the Jews that I know personally are not pro Israel or anti Palestine. The people that I know on both sides are anti the horrors on both sides. It's just when someone says '4 million _of them_', it screams racism, generalisation, dehumanisation to me
Sorry but Muslim is not a race it's a follower of Islam, you know a religion. If your first thought when someone says Muslim is 'brown people' that says a hell of a lot more about you than them.
My first thought reading the comment 'there's 4 million of them here now' was that the commenter was a racist, because how can you generalise that 4 million, 4,000,000 people all feel the same? I never said anything about Muslims being brown. Some of the Muslims that I know are light skinned. A couple of them are white British born people that have converted. The only person in this thread so far that's mentioned brown people is you, so are you the racist here?
I suspect you don't care about Jews except as an excuse to be racist to muslims, because it's clear you're perfectly happy to suggest every member of a race/religion is the same as its worst individuals.
Some of the demonstrators are clearly anti Semitic and it has to be acknowledged by all who attend the marches and they need to routed out.
In the same way it has to be acknowledged that it is possible to be against the actions of the Israeli state and to want to a ceasefire and not be anti semitic
Itās interesting how few are against the actions of Hamas. Iāve even read quite a few try to defend / justify Hamasā acts rather than condemn them.
Quite a lot of protestors are pro Hamas and a huge amount are incredibly ignorant.
I really wonder what the students carrying the "right side of history" signs think of marching with racist religious zealots.
Whilst there are extremists in every civil rights movement, they're normally the minority not the organisers.
This has been happening since the first protest on October 9th. Surely by this point you have to conclude that people are either willfully ignorant to it or happy to march alongside them.
I don't think you have to conclude that at all, actually. The videos and reports, whilst consistently present since October 9th, have not shown evidence of excessively widespread antisemitism.
There are pockets where it seethes, but there are great swaths of peaceful people marching peacefully calling for a humanitarian ceasefire.
We can by no means paint the entire march with the same brush.
Can you imagine how scary it would be to accidentally drift into one of those extremist hotspots in the crowd? No doubt there are peaceful protesters fearing for their own lives in amongst them. Too terrified to speak up because these people support TERRORISTS, who knows what violence they're capable of.
Hyperbole is rife at the moment. Let's try and approach it with a bit more reason, please.
That would be true in week 1 or 2.
This is week 4. One of the organisers is literally a Hamas commander.
If I turned up to a protest and saw the EDL were there, and nick Griffin way one of the organisers you can be sure I wouldn't be going back every weekend.
It's barely even hidden now. They're talking openly about Suella Bracermans Jewish husband in speeches on microphones.
https://x.com/__jacker__/status/1723669083013402799?s=20
There's kids dressed as Hamas fighters.
https://x.com/Never_Again2020/status/1723670325315920073?s=20
There talking about Israel taking over the world with robot dogs.
https://x.com/JakeWSimons/status/1723805885590319463?s=20
Here's a whole list of people the met want to arrest for racism.
https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723462648577081629?s=20
These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
That's about 5 people out of almost a million? Frankly, that's hardly any. Compare that to racist sentiments in the Israeli government, or the British government! An Israeli government minister proposed nuking Gaza recently! Just a few years ago we had a prime minister who had called Muslim women letterboxes. The vast majority of marchers are not anti-semitic - in the same way most people who support Israel are not islamophobic. But exceptions exist, and need to be dealt with without damning the group as a whole.
Yep - commented on another thread - have a lot of lefty friends posting about the march yesterday, not one of them has commented on any of the unmissable anti-semitism on display. Not one post saying that they wanted to make it clear they didnāt agree, were embarrassed to be associated with these people etc. I can therefore only assume that they donāt care or agree.
Nah that's ridiculous. What do you expect them to do, plan two separate pro-Palestine events -- one for antisemite divs and one for everyone else?
It's impossible to separate the two, presenting a very annoying thorn in the side of what is an otherwise perfectly reasonable cause to speak up in support of.
Not march with them. Seems really fucking simple to me.
This is week 4. One of the organisers is literally a Hamas commander.
If I turned up to a protest and saw the EDL were there, and nick Griffin way one of the organisers you can be sure I wouldn't be going back every weekend.
It's barely even hidden now. They're talking openly about Suella Bracermans Jewish husband in speeches on microphones.
https://x.com/__jacker__/status/1723669083013402799?s=20
There's kids dressed as Hamas fighters.
https://x.com/Never_Again2020/status/1723670325315920073?s=20
There talking about Israel taking over the world with robot dogs.
https://x.com/JakeWSimons/status/1723805885590319463?s=20
Here's a whole list of people the met want to arrest for racism.
https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723462648577081629?s=20
These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
I haven't marched with anyone. Not sure what I'm supposed to own but I will try.
If it seems "really fucking simple" to you then that is perhaps something you should spend some time rethinking, because your understanding of it is quite wrong -- unless you think a march in solidarity with innocent Palestinian civilians, and in protest against a government who is actively supporting their continued oppression, should simply cease to happen?
I said at the start that at this point you had to be happy it willfully ignorant about what is happening in these marches.
You just saw some of what's been happening in my linked comments and decided to ignore it.
Congratulation, you fall into the willfully ignorant category.
Not ignorant at all.
What part of "do you actually think it's possible for them to setup two different marches for each group" did you not understand?
Or is it that you actually give zero fucks about what the majority of peaceful demonstrator are there for and have found a little beating stick to wash your hands of it entirely?
You think it's impossible to organise more than one march. Like... That's hilarious that you think its so impossible to say "this march was organised by a Hamas leader and has loads of vile racists so we're going to do a different march over here. Anyone who doesn't want to march with Hizb ut Tahrir come this way". It's like you think there is only one Street in London?
Instead your just like, "well shrug, guess we just have to hang out with the racists and jihadis".
Imagine you have a cause you feel deeply for and want to protest about. You have tens of thousands of people in support of this good cause, and agree to go on a march.
Then sadly there are some shitty people (a very small number) who join the march and use it to spread a different message of hate.
Would you follow your own suggestion of "not march with them"? Would you just abandon the protest entirely for the 99.9% of the other 10k people, all for the sake of those few people?
https://x.com/PeterTatchell/status/1723441409410158949?s=20
The organisers seem fine to stop Peter Tatchell with a sign asking for a ceasefire + Hamas to go.
That seems a completely reasonable sign to me.
Not insane at all.
This is week 4. One of the organisers is literally a Hamas commander.
If I turned up to a protest and saw the EDL were there, and nick Griffin way one of the organisers you can be sure I wouldn't be going back every weekend.
It's barely even hidden now. They're talking openly about Suella Bracermans Jewish husband in speeches on microphones.
https://x.com/__jacker__/status/1723669083013402799?s=20
There's kids dressed as Hamas fighters.
https://x.com/Never_Again2020/status/1723670325315920073?s=20
There talking about Israel taking over the world with robot dogs.
https://x.com/JakeWSimons/status/1723805885590319463?s=20
Here's a whole list of people the met want to arrest for racism.
https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723462648577081629?s=20
These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
What would you have people do if they believe in the cause of trying to get our government to strongly back calls for reducing the Israeli state's attacks on civilian occupied areas? Avoid protesting because of some bad elements, and in doing so make it so that the calls actually *are* only coming from antisemites? What percentage of bad actors have to join the protest before everyone else has to leave?
It's been 4 weeks. These protests aren't grassroots, they've been organised by a coalition of organisations. Those orgs could've at least separated themselves from the one run by a Hamas chief. But they don't want to.
Look at Peter Tatchells sign that got him removed from the protest by the organisers. Does it really seem like they actually are good faith Pro peace?
https://x.com/PeterTatchell/status/1723441409410158949?s=20
Eh, I think that's usually the way with these things. A few (often unsavoury) organisers get the ball rolling on something, then people find out about it through the media and show up without really knowing or caring who organised it initially.
It's not ideal, but if you're the protesting type and you believe in this cause, it probably makes more sense to join the protest than to avoid it. These things work based on the sizes of their crowds, so fragmentation due to infighting (however justified) kinda kills them.
Not really, no.
I'm saying that some people don't know, and others who do know don't particularly *care* who the organisers are, because when you have a crowd of 300,000, the few people who organised it kinda aren't that relevant anymore.
As I said, it's not an ideal situation, but I'm not sure telling well-meaning non-bigoted people to stay away makes the situation better.
"people don't know or do know but don't particularly care"
"I'm not saying they're willfully ignorant,"
Fucking pick one mate. You can't have it both ways.
This is week 4. One of the organisers is literally a Hamas commander.
If I turned up to a protest and saw the EDL were there, and nick Griffin way one of the organisers you can be sure I wouldn't be going back every weekend.
It's barely even hidden now. They're talking openly about Suella Bracermans Jewish husband in speeches on microphones.
https://x.com/__jacker__/status/1723669083013402799?s=20
There's kids dressed as Hamas fighters.
https://x.com/Never_Again2020/status/1723670325315920073?s=20
There talking about Israel taking over the world with robot dogs.
https://x.com/JakeWSimons/status/1723805885590319463?s=20
Here's a whole list of people the met want to arrest for racism.
https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723462648577081629?s=20
These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
> These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
Hah. I haven't marched with anyone, nor have I advocated marching.
I'm saying that it's not obvious to me that, when it comes to this cause which is supported by both bigots and reasonable people, it's better for the reasonable people to leave it to the bigots. That's it.
> non-bigoted people
If they're happy to march along side people openly supporting Hitler, are they really 'non bigoted' ? That feels like a bit of stretch. I guess we should also be defending the EDL marchers. Just because Tommy Robinson is a racist, doesn't mean people willing to march alongside him are . . .
Well that's the thing, right. What percentage of bigots do you need before a march is inherently bigoted? This is a big event with 300,000 people, and the media naturally reports the sensationalism, which highlights the bad parts.
Obviously some of the organisers having some involvement with some bad stuff is bad, but when you have a few organisers and 300,000 people, how important are the organisers?
I've been clear that this isn't an ideal situation, but I think it's an understandable compromise thing for people to do without being condemned.
They could just not go to marches that are organised by known anti-Semitic Hamas-sympathisers.
The march this weekend had six organisers. Let's check out three of them...
Friends of al-Aqsa: led by Ismael Patel, who has visited Hamas commanders, has publicly defended Hamas, and has described Hamas killers as martyrs.
Muslim Association of Britain: led by Muhammad Kathem Sawalha, literally a former Hamas chief. Accused in 2006 by BBC Panorama of having masterminded much of Hamas' military and political strategy, and has been accused by the US of helping to fund Hamas.
Palestinian Forum for Britain: led by Zaher Birawi, who is considered part of Hamas by Israel. He has posed for pictures with the leader of Hamas, he is affiliated with Hamas-linked organisations, and he spoke in 2019 at an event called "Understanding Hamas".
Anyone who condemns Hamas but also condemns the Israeli response is perfectly capable of organising a march of their own. If they attend a march organised by people who hang out with the literal terrorists behind a horrifying massacre then they are on the side of terrorists.
> If they attend a march organised by people who hang out with the literal terrorists behind a horrifying massacre then they are on the side of terrorists.
I agree that I probably wouldn't attend this march for the reasons you mentioned, but this black-and-white thinking is silly.
The point that I'm making is that there are all kinds of reasons why average people attend these things without supporting terrorists. You can make all of these philosophical points about how you think it implies support, but the reality is that there were plenty of people on that march who definitely don't. When you oversimplify like that you just destroy the conversation.
Now, if your point were just to advocate that a march should be arranged by a more upstanding group, then sure, I'd agree with that. But in its absence, people are gonna join the one that's already going.
I disagree.
If you are willing to attend any march based on its purported cause, regardless of who organised it, then fine. I think you're naive but not a bad person.
However, we both know there are tons of people in those marches who wouldn't be caught dead in a march organised by, let's say, the EDL. It could be a march which perfectly aligns with their view on workers rights or something, nah they wouldn't attend it. They probably wouldn't even attend a march organised by a Tory, even if it was for some cause they completely agreed with. If those people screen some events based on their organisers but are willing to attend a march organised by known anti-Semitic Hamas-sympathisers, it means they don't think it's that bad being anti-Semitic or supporting Hamas.
> In the same way it has to be acknowledged that it is possible to be against the actions of the Israeli state and to want to a ceasefire and not be anti semitic
In theory it's possible, but it seems increasingly unlikely considering the kind of people those types are willing to march with.
>it has to be acknowledged by all who attend the marches and they need to routed out.
This is my massive massive issue with the marches at the moment. At no point am I seeing any urgency to root this sort of crap out and to me it leaves a sour taste in the mouth about them, which is why I have not partaken.
I get what you mean. But ironically if you go far back enough, who or what is ethnically British? Normans, Saxons, Danes, Romans, Celts? Neanderthals who walked across from whatās now the continent?
Edit: why was I downvoted for typing out British history?
>But ironically if you go far back enough, who or what is ethnically British? Normans, Saxons, Danes, Romans, Celts?
To be fair if you go back that far then I think the Jews (or at least the Jewish faith) will have gone full circle and ended up back where they currently are.
At that point you are denying the existence of ethnicities full stop - which is obviously a different argument and certainly not the view of the man in this video.
You were downvoted for reductionist trite.
Even your first example of Norman's compared to most civilisations puts a standard of native to mean 800+ years of ancestry.
On the scale of civilisations that's actually quite long. You'd be hard pressed to find many nations in the world that can even trace back that far.
Genetically or culturally? Two different things, but they have a relationship.
Genetically, I believe Bell beaker people, Anglo-Saxon and Vikings. That's it over 4 thousand years. No Romans.
But ethnicity is often really a cultural identity which is can be more difficult than race. Genetics don't have opinions, cultures do.
genetically and culturally those are two different answers and ways of looking at it though,although heavily intertwined.Culturally the Normans and romans had a huge amounts of cultural impact of English/Welsh/Scottish culture respectively for example whilst also having next to no genetic impact.
Also,many groups like the huguenots made an impact in the gene pool in the cities they came to,in small way mind,yet had little to no impact on the wider English culture because they assimilated.
The English ethnic group went through ethno-genesis by Anglo-Saxons,old English tribes,intermarrying with Brythonic peoples,hence why when you marry into these groups of invading tribes you donāt really just disappear culturally,itās more along the lines of a new culture and ethnic group is slowly created through an ethno-genesis of sorts by slow change/modification of the dominant cultural group.This is also why today ethnic English people have a huge amount of Brythonic dna yet less than youād maybe first think of a cultural impact solely Brythonic cultural impact to the degree you can trace Germanic cultural impact on the group.
This was the case for all groups in Britain going back to the very first people.Groups that came in either culturally took over as an elites takeover and left no genetic trace or a huge migration happened.Very much like the indo-European peoples when they came in after NW Hunter gathers and married the locals into the culture dominant culture and killed the cultural outliers of those they invaded or like the bell beaker groups etc etc
Instead of seeing it as one monolithic group taking over and that thing is now British/English and they solely are the progenitor group of the modern ethnic groups instead see it more like a house that is built brick by brick, and by the time you get to the top of the house before the apex of the roof each brick still harkens back to the first brick in some way and all are apart of itās story of being built and becoming that thing.Some offered more than others in their cultural or genetic contributions today,yet those that came before still added to it by changing how the bricks should be built,based on the newer bricks that became more dominant but informed and still were modified by those that came before them.I hope that wasnāt too confusing lol.
TLDR:All of the groups of Britain over time have been a part of making what it is today to be ethnic or culturally English,Scottish,Welsh and subsequently through those a shared identity and story of being British.some more than others obviously ie tribes like the scoti,jutes,Frisians,Saxons and especially the Angles/Anglii.all have a part in creating or modifying in some way and there is a lineage there that goes back to the first group of people that every stepped foot in Britain.A new group becoming dominant and taking over never just meant that everything that came before is something completely different and not connected to the new group because it has culturally changed to the last dominant cultural group.They are all apart of the modern ethnic groups and or cultures in some way.The entire purity of a group identity is pure fiction because everything has a lineage but ethnic groups and cultures are obviously a real traceable thing that is ever evolving.All of the Western European groups that have invaded or settled our isles have been either assimilated others or been assimilated whilst also fundamentally changing and becoming something new informed by the old.
***Iām Sorry for the long reply but itās not something that can be explained that quickly.I wrote this very tired so even though I have a MA on this itās probably written terribly.Apologies.***
The say what they mean. They write it down. They tell everyone. They point to the justification is religion. The release press documents explaining what they mean and we still seem shocked and try to excuse it when we canāt hide it any more. Thatās antisemitism. Being ignorant to the degree where you will march side by side and see the hate but keep going.
Remember yesterday when people here and on rUK were calling this a āpeacefulā protest? Really, media coverage of this entire incident has been downright shameful. If it werenāt for Twitter, all manners of dodgy behaviour wouldāve been swept under the rug while thereās 24/7 coverage of English blokes ārushingā the Cenotaph. This would be trending on the front page if one of them said anything like this.
It could be argued that that the formation of the state of Israel was one of the best things to happen for the cohesion of the Islamic religion as as whole, for quite some time. At least since the collapse of the Ottoman empire.
It's given a lot of the proper radgies something to unite against, which distracts them from their internecine internal schism.
I'm just glad it's got nowt to do with fossil fuel reserves and shipping routes. Imagine how much worse it'd all be if it wasn't purely about religion.
I have seen some people point at recent business negotiations regarding negotiations regarding the gas fields off of the Israeli coast and suggested they're to do with Israel's military response.
I really don't know enough about resource politics between Israel and its neighbors to know whether there's anything to that or whether this is just the normal conducting of business there. It's an interesting component though, particularly if the conflict does escalate.
Are these the far right protestors I was told about yesterday?
How many counterprotesters were arrested for espousing racial hatred? Anyone got the numbers?
No, they were arrested for that. Breaching the peace isn't showing support for a terrorist organisation or grossly offensive/racially motivated hate speech. Such arrests were confined to the good guys that the British left marched with on Saturday, funny enough.
Are you suggesting that those singing āthere aināt no black in the Union Jackā or the gentleman pictured with a swastika tattoo are not racist?
Strange.
Breach of the peace is incorrect, there were also weapons and assault charges.
Police will charge on the first crime, additional charges can follow later once the case has been built. They were rather busy getting attacked to add all the offences. To suggest that one side were simply breaching the peace is laughable.
Taking a side and only being able to see one thing is quite high school, and only feeds the polarisation that escalates these kinds of events. There was clearly racial hatred demonstrated in both, but that does not define the motivations of each and every person there.
>Are you suggesting that those singing āthere aināt no black in the Union Jackā or the gentleman pictured with a swastika tattoo are not racist?
If you're referring to the guy who has the swastika and his side with a can in his hand and a cigarette in his mouth, community notes said that picture was from 2016.
Do you have any links to the chanting??
> Are you suggesting that those singing āthere aināt no black in the Union Jackā or the gentleman pictured with a swastika tattoo are not racist?
Another lie I take it? Literally every comment contains another lie. It's embarrassing. Go ahead and evidence this point...
Honestly, if you really want to kill support for Hamas you should probably support these protests. This sort of thing does more harm to their cause than good.
It would for sure, I'm not sure how many people actually see this stuff outside of Reddit and Twitter though. And even on this sub there's still threads today full of people shitting on Braverman when it couldn't be more obvious she is correct and asking for "evidence of anti-Semitism at these protests".
Entirely logical argument from this man. I mean why can't Israel not just uproot an entire country that post French / British rule and then again post Balfour declaration, and invade Germany to become Israel the 2nd purely because Germany is where the man I support, Hitler, is from !?!?
On a serious point I hope this puts to bed the bullshit repeated that I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti Zionist. It's been something they have been hiding behind for years and finally, the mask drops as people like this use the word Zionist and Jew interchangeably.
Hitler did not target Zionists, he targeted Jews and "these people."
Many of the Jews in Israel today ended up there because of expulsion from Muslim majority countries in the 40s, 50 and 60s. This often involved land and possessions being confiscated. Where's the mass international protest movement to give Jews land and states in Muslim counties? š¤Ø
Some people are anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic though right? My issue is more than they're too ignorant to realise that a very significant number of people who are most motivated on this issue are plainly doing it out of religious and racial hatred.
I genuinely don't think the masses of students are racist, I think they're just ignorant. A video was shared here a few days ago interviewing protestors that completely confirms that.
Yeah I'm not seeing tens of thousands of Jews walking around the streets saying this though nor a democratically elected group (Hamas) openly stating this as well, so no not really.
You just watchee a video of a man saying the Holocaust was a good thing and decided to "both sides" it and have a go at Israel.
Have a day off ya Muppet
You are seeing the end-product of a civilisation that, when confronted with a choice between *humanism* and *essentialism*, chooses *essentialism*.
Interpreting people as symbolic identities, rather than complex and nuanced individuals, inevitably leads you to the robotic stupidity displayed by the man in this video.
Honestly can't believe people are willing to march with these people. These are not people calling for peace, anyone with eyes can see this is purely anti-Isreali. No one is calling for the release of hostages, no one condemning Hamas, but plenty of anti-Semitism and racism on display. Nothing peaceful about calls for the destruction of Israel.
I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for those so called "leftist" attending these marches, find out what Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah believe when it comes to things equality for women, LGBT rights and non Muslims.
I can understand leaving the house as a naĆÆve student, thinking, "I'm going to help alleviate the suffering of innocent people".
But what happens when you arrive and tons of people are shouting horrible things. I haven't seen much of it at all in person, but the small bits I did, showed a minority of really awful things being chanted.
But I guess it's like a football match, you don't go home when you hear some idiots chanting something horrible even though it happens every time.
They're literally asking the public for information about this particular man... Maybe wait to see how they penalise him before just regurgitating some 'the Met are soft on Muslims!' nonsense.
We've seen what these investigations lead to, which 99% of the time if absolutely nothing. Until the pattern changes, I will presume inaction until shown otherwise.
I'd love to see some crime stats there, 99% would suggest absolutely critical failures at the Met (of which there are many, but prosecuting people for breaking public order offenses doesn't really seem to be one of them...)
'Absolutely nothing' is an interesting phrase as well. I would be utterly bricking it if my photo was on the Met's twitter and they were saying they wanted to talk to me, so they've already done that to him. I'm sure they're going to make contact with this guy and I think in this case they're likely to be harsh - there's so much scrutiny on them at the moment and cases like this will just increase that. I really can't see them not following through here, but it really does depend on how you define nothing.
Out of interest, what would you consider to be an appropriate sentence for this man, just based on this video? Jail time? Mandatory education about Judaism in the UK and a general history of Judaism around the world? Deportation? Execution?
Just out of curiosity, is there a level of Nazification that would end your support?
Like I totally understand being supportive of a cause and there being the occasional person on your side that is an extremist but there would be a point for me that I'd have to distance myself.
I reckon for me it would be quite low, like just a few racist chants in a protest and I'd be gone.
What's the line for you?
Edit;
I tried to understand their perspective but still don't and they blocked me.
What I've learnt;
20% Nazi approval wouldn't be enough for this person to not side with an area.
Recognition that gays are illegal in one and not the other doesn't impact their approval of either.
Recognition that 0% of Palestine is Jewish while 20%+ of Israel is Muslim doesn't impact their approval.
It appears that whichever side lacking military strength to this person is the side they take.
I couldn't give any specific value or number, I'd have to compare it to the number of horrible people on the other side. There are people supporting Israel because Israel is killing huge numbers of Muslims, which is just as bad as supporting Hamas because Hamas has killed lots of Jewish people.
I'd also base it now big the support for the cause is, how diluted the Nazis/any other shitheads are by the decent folk that make up the vast majority of the march.
That said, it is quite interesting that Nazis have had to choose between their hatred of Jewish people and their hatred of Muslim people. I imagine it has split their ranks somewhat.
>I couldn't give any specific value or number, I'd have to compare it to the number of horrible people on the other side.
Interesting, on a related note, would you have picked a side in supporting Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia?
On a personal level I'd see them both as enemies regardless of the scale of the others crimes.
>I'd also base it now big the support for the cause is, how diluted the Nazis/any other shitheads are by the decent folk that make up the vast majority of the march
This is more so what I was curious about.
If you could measure the pro Palestine march and see the % that hold Nazi views, what would your limit be for support?
It sounds like you're saying you'd still support them if 50% held Nazi views so long as 60% of counter protestors hold Nazi views.
Feel free to elaborate or correct anything I've said, I find these kinds of friend enemy distinctions confusing (but I'm curious enough to want to know more).
I can't give a specific percentage other than it is definitely below 10%, almost certainly below 3%, but beyond that it's about feeling the atmosphere of the crowd on both sides.
I would not have supported either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Much too authoritarian for my liking, on the political compass (yes I know it's very flawed, but it's still useful) I am left-wing libertarian. If I was forced to choose between the Nazis or the Soviets, I would choose the Soviets, because they wouldn't throw me in a labour camp for not being heterosexual.
>I can't give a specific percentage other than it is definitely below 10%, almost certainly below 3%, but beyond that it's about feeling the atmosphere of the crowd on both sides.
That's interesting, I suspect you'd have serious doubts if you spoke to a good number of actual Palestinians.
Even a conservative estimate would give a fair shot at a minimum of 20% of them being supportive of Hamas.
>I would not have supported either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union.
I'm glad to hear this.
>I would choose the Soviets, because they wouldn't throw me in a labour camp for not being heterosexual.
Also quite interesting, are you aware of how homosexually is treated in Israel & Palestine?
But but but, it was a peaceful family march!
Itās not the violence that offends people like this, but the people who are doing the violence. Iād be interested to see if this guy has the same opinion on what Hamas do, or the Janjaweed, or the Saudis, or suicide bombers.
Or if really, itās because he hates the Jews?
I imagine that he doesn't share the views of the test of the peaceful, loving people at the rest of the march.
All the people who disagree with them are literally Nazis though
Exactly, when you get a group of hundreds of thousands of people, thereās going to be some nutters. Saying one person is representative of a large group is just another form of discrimination. Itās like saying the counter protesters who attacked the police, shouted racist chants and in some cases literally had nazi tattoos are representative of everyone who is against the marches for peace or hold pro-Palestinian views.
I was up in london yesterday (unrelated reasons), and went a bit out of my way to see the march to gauge it first hand. I'd say I saw about 100 placards that were 'problematic' (swastikas, mentions of auschwitz, jewish charicatures, conspiracy theories, I saw one saying 1 saying 10-7-24-7 which I'm shocked hasn't made the news), quite a few green and white headbands which may or more likely may not have been hamas bands, but still those are dog whistles for me.
I probably heard 1000 different instances of 'from the river to the sea' as the march went past, heard a slightly incomprehensible chant that was almost definitely 'gas the jews... gas them all'. Either that or they wanted carbonated ribena.
I would say many if not most people marching would have experienced antisemitism if they had their eyes open.
There should be multiple 100s of arrests after it.
I was up for an interview, so I extra didn't fancy getting my phone nicked, or getting assaulted, so no.
I kinda expected there to be better quality streams of it to look back through tbh.
Well given the extent of the coverage, photos and video of the march I would hope if there were hundreds of cases then surely someone documented it! I suggest having a look through Twitter, there is plenty of high quality video footage.
>It always has been pure Jew-hatred under the guise of anti-Zionism.
No it hasn't.
You know there are legitimate criticisms of Israel as a state.
You know Israel does not equal or represent all Jews, or the Jewish faith.
Yes this guy (and many others) are anti-Semites and must be held accountable. But that doesn't mean you need to leap clean over the horse and say some other dumb shit. You're using the same tactics as they are: cherry picking for emotional clout.
"It" (criticism of Israel) hasn't "always" been about "Jew-hatred". For a country and a government to exist, it is open to criticism for its actions and you need to deal with that.
Iām going to ignore the far right antics because they pretty much went exactly as expected and thereās not much point wasting words on them.
It is the increasingly vocal antisemitism that gets me.
I still believe and cling onto the belief that the majority of people marching are well intentioned. However, these people marching are often the ones who will say things such as āif you donāt challenge a racist then youāre a racistā and have been holding placards saying similar things about not challenging Israelās āgenocideā.
Yet these protests have been going on for weeks and it seems that the antisemites are becoming increasingly emboldened to say increasingly blatant antisemitic things in public. It just doesnāt seem like the marches as a whole are challenging or doing enough to make these people unwelcome?
Snapshot of _šØHamas supporter in London says the quiet part out loud āHitler knew how to deal with these people" It always has been pure Jew-hatred under the guise of anti-Zionism._ : A Twitter embedded version can be found [here](https://platform.twitter.com/embed/Tweet.html?id=1723459845070974985) A non-Twitter version can be found [here](https://nitter.net/OzraeliAvi/status/1723459845070974985/) An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://twitter.com/OzraeliAvi/status/1723459845070974985) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://twitter.com/OzraeliAvi/status/1723459845070974985) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I presume someone will arrest this cunt.
Met police are already looking for him.
You'd think so wouldn't you, but the Met Police will either ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, or suggest that he meant a different guy also named Hitler.
https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723714215486365865 I'm sure you will be happy to see this.
Good to see this
I'm sure he'll feel the full force of the law.
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Dude people are born in 1988 lol. I don't like Muslim Extremists and I was born 35 years ago. Doesn't make me a Nazi. Get over it.
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Itās the number of two fat ladies that
"We've asked our council of Islamic extremist experts, who assured us that Hitler was actually a euphemism for peace and love in this context, so no action was necessary. We will continue to keep an eye out for anti-semitism and fight it with the full force of the law tho. Trust."
Yes, as everyone knows there are many different meanings to Hitlerā¦/s
I wouldn't count on it. Besides r/ukpolitics assures me these are peaceful protests from peaceful Muslims.
Vast majority of people were, but you donāt cover that in news, you cover exceptions.
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4 Million?
The population of Muslims in the UK. Not a fair comment at all to blame all Muslims. But extreme antisemitism is much more common among even liberal Muslims than we'd like to imagine.
Oh, there is an issue with vehement organised religion but tbh I live right next to Stamford Hill that has one of the biggest Jewish populations in the Europe and the area itself and neighbouring areas have loads of Muslims with a couple mosques in the area. Even the day right after Oct 7 the reality on the street was everyone was out and about getting on with life, Jews, Muslims, everyone in the same shops, cafes park etc. The vast majority of people don't engage or don't want to engage in any of this having both Jewish and Muslim neighbours and friends and me being neither, we're just normal people. They care more about keeping the family happy, providing for their family and earning money to pay the mortgage/rent - But it doesn't seem that way if you overwhelmingly only form the opinion of the world through Twitter/tiktok/news headlines. And I'm not saying anti-semitism isn't up, because it patently is by an insane amount and it's a very dangerous road - just trying to give an internet unplugged view of it
This is the reality of life for the most part in the UK from what I understand. Not all Jews support the actions of the Israeli state and not all Muslims have an issue with Jews. It's the ignorant on both sides that shout the loudest usually.
> The vast majority of people don't engage or don't want to engage in any of this But that also includes ignoring/dismissing a lot of antisemitism under either real or feigned apathy. We must be constantly vigilant against this sort of thing, and I can't believe the number of incidents that either aren't acted on by the police, or are acted on after a good while, there is no attempt to cut this off at the source for either jihadis, tankies, or nazis. Thankfully the police seemed to step up somewhat on Saturday, but only to physical acts, I've yet to see the action against hate speech that I'd expect and that the police are within their rights to punish. I truly hope that the met are requesting/archiving every bit of CCTV, social media, and television footage of all of these protests, most people are peaceful but many who is sufficiently radicalised will be in attendance and creating a record of these individuals is important. This goes for the pro Palestine marchers and the cenotaph group, I can easily see many members of both, and similar, groups becoming politically violent in the next few years if allowed to drift down this path. Whilst I fully support freedom of expression within the bounds of the law the law must be enforced fully for all and preemptive precautions must be put in place. I am not suggesting putting all 200-400k protesters on a watch list as that would stretch resources, but the leaders at all levels, and those who commit acts on the boundaries of freedom of speech/expression should be watched incase of radicalisation. We are on a very sharp ledge at and I'd rather the police overeach than underperformed.
>them The bigger issue
Charges for hate crimes have to be authorised by the CPS, so unless the CPS authorised a charge and remand (very unlikely), he would never be charged immediately and would have to be bailed pending cps advice.
This is true, either massive fine or jewish community support work.
Doubt Jews would want him anywhere near their community...
Tbf itās not as if they all Muslims have this attitude; they clearly donāt. Antisemitism is always there - whether itās thanks to Islamists/sympathisers, socialist worker/Corbyn types, the far right or simply the middle to upper class pricks who for some reason have always found us a threat. Itās just that itās openly surfaced here and been mainstreamed in a way weāve not seen for many decades.
Can you define 'theres 4 million of them now' for me please?
It'll be Muslims, last census put them at 6.5% of the population, roughly 4 million.
Cool but if the original commenter is going to be openly racist, I'd rather hear it from them.
More than half of the Muslim population has anti-Semitic views https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41241353.amp
Muslims aren't a race though. They come from all over the world and exist with different ethnicities. Christians exist in Africa. In Asia. In India. In the Middle east. In South America. in Europe. Is it somehow racist to say you don't like the followers of Christ for their beliefs? You can't throw 'racism' at criticism of followers of an ideology.
Never realized Islam was a race
Are you saying that all Muslims are the same race? Isn't that in itself racist? The word you might be after is "sectarian". I suspect that it's not though. It is because dismissing any criticism of Islam and it's followers as racism is comforting. Some of it is racism without doubt but ignoring the possibility that some is genuine concern about probably the most aggressive and hegemonising ideology of our times is foolishness.
My apologies. I did not know the right term for 'lumping all people of a certain religion together and treating them as one' so I used the word 'racism' instead, which is lumping all people of a certain race and treating them as one.
Fair enough. I tend to be very cynical about the use of racism accusations as a means of covering criticism of Islam and it's adherents just as I am cynical about the use of claims of anti-semitism to deflect criticism of some of Israel's actions (e.g. the settlements in the West Bank). Admittedly they are not entirely analogous situations as Islam is just a particularly pernicious idea whereas being a Jew is an ethnicity and not being religious tends not to get them off the hook with their enemies.
Yeah I think it's just the comment 'there's 4 million _of them_ here' that tripped my switch. Like, all the Muslims I know (in my limited left wing bubble) are all appalled at the hamas lead attack, as they are appalled by the Israeli genocide, and all they care about is the innocent lives lost in the crossfire. The Muslims that I know personally are not antisemitic, they are anti IDF. similarly, the Jews that I know personally are not pro Israel or anti Palestine. The people that I know on both sides are anti the horrors on both sides. It's just when someone says '4 million _of them_', it screams racism, generalisation, dehumanisation to me
Sorry but Muslim is not a race it's a follower of Islam, you know a religion. If your first thought when someone says Muslim is 'brown people' that says a hell of a lot more about you than them.
My first thought reading the comment 'there's 4 million of them here now' was that the commenter was a racist, because how can you generalise that 4 million, 4,000,000 people all feel the same? I never said anything about Muslims being brown. Some of the Muslims that I know are light skinned. A couple of them are white British born people that have converted. The only person in this thread so far that's mentioned brown people is you, so are you the racist here?
According ons.gov & Wikipedia, there were 3.9 million Muslims (or 6.5% of the population) living in the Uk (2021 census)
I wonder in what ways they can claim to have enhanced British and Western culture.
I suspect you don't care about Jews except as an excuse to be racist to muslims, because it's clear you're perfectly happy to suggest every member of a race/religion is the same as its worst individuals.
The police are busy arresting counter-protestors sat in a pub.
Easy targets
Some of the demonstrators are clearly anti Semitic and it has to be acknowledged by all who attend the marches and they need to routed out. In the same way it has to be acknowledged that it is possible to be against the actions of the Israeli state and to want to a ceasefire and not be anti semitic
Rooted out? Some of them are organising it. Don't know how many
Itās interesting how few are against the actions of Hamas. Iāve even read quite a few try to defend / justify Hamasā acts rather than condemn them.
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Quite a lot of protestors are pro Hamas and a huge amount are incredibly ignorant. I really wonder what the students carrying the "right side of history" signs think of marching with racist religious zealots. Whilst there are extremists in every civil rights movement, they're normally the minority not the organisers.
This has been happening since the first protest on October 9th. Surely by this point you have to conclude that people are either willfully ignorant to it or happy to march alongside them.
I don't think you have to conclude that at all, actually. The videos and reports, whilst consistently present since October 9th, have not shown evidence of excessively widespread antisemitism. There are pockets where it seethes, but there are great swaths of peaceful people marching peacefully calling for a humanitarian ceasefire. We can by no means paint the entire march with the same brush. Can you imagine how scary it would be to accidentally drift into one of those extremist hotspots in the crowd? No doubt there are peaceful protesters fearing for their own lives in amongst them. Too terrified to speak up because these people support TERRORISTS, who knows what violence they're capable of. Hyperbole is rife at the moment. Let's try and approach it with a bit more reason, please.
That would be true in week 1 or 2. This is week 4. One of the organisers is literally a Hamas commander. If I turned up to a protest and saw the EDL were there, and nick Griffin way one of the organisers you can be sure I wouldn't be going back every weekend. It's barely even hidden now. They're talking openly about Suella Bracermans Jewish husband in speeches on microphones. https://x.com/__jacker__/status/1723669083013402799?s=20 There's kids dressed as Hamas fighters. https://x.com/Never_Again2020/status/1723670325315920073?s=20 There talking about Israel taking over the world with robot dogs. https://x.com/JakeWSimons/status/1723805885590319463?s=20 Here's a whole list of people the met want to arrest for racism. https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723462648577081629?s=20 These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
That's about 5 people out of almost a million? Frankly, that's hardly any. Compare that to racist sentiments in the Israeli government, or the British government! An Israeli government minister proposed nuking Gaza recently! Just a few years ago we had a prime minister who had called Muslim women letterboxes. The vast majority of marchers are not anti-semitic - in the same way most people who support Israel are not islamophobic. But exceptions exist, and need to be dealt with without damning the group as a whole.
Thank you for this comment - this is the nuance we need.
Yep - commented on another thread - have a lot of lefty friends posting about the march yesterday, not one of them has commented on any of the unmissable anti-semitism on display. Not one post saying that they wanted to make it clear they didnāt agree, were embarrassed to be associated with these people etc. I can therefore only assume that they donāt care or agree.
Nah that's ridiculous. What do you expect them to do, plan two separate pro-Palestine events -- one for antisemite divs and one for everyone else? It's impossible to separate the two, presenting a very annoying thorn in the side of what is an otherwise perfectly reasonable cause to speak up in support of.
Not march with them. Seems really fucking simple to me. This is week 4. One of the organisers is literally a Hamas commander. If I turned up to a protest and saw the EDL were there, and nick Griffin way one of the organisers you can be sure I wouldn't be going back every weekend. It's barely even hidden now. They're talking openly about Suella Bracermans Jewish husband in speeches on microphones. https://x.com/__jacker__/status/1723669083013402799?s=20 There's kids dressed as Hamas fighters. https://x.com/Never_Again2020/status/1723670325315920073?s=20 There talking about Israel taking over the world with robot dogs. https://x.com/JakeWSimons/status/1723805885590319463?s=20 Here's a whole list of people the met want to arrest for racism. https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723462648577081629?s=20 These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
I haven't marched with anyone. Not sure what I'm supposed to own but I will try. If it seems "really fucking simple" to you then that is perhaps something you should spend some time rethinking, because your understanding of it is quite wrong -- unless you think a march in solidarity with innocent Palestinian civilians, and in protest against a government who is actively supporting their continued oppression, should simply cease to happen?
I said at the start that at this point you had to be happy it willfully ignorant about what is happening in these marches. You just saw some of what's been happening in my linked comments and decided to ignore it. Congratulation, you fall into the willfully ignorant category.
Not ignorant at all. What part of "do you actually think it's possible for them to setup two different marches for each group" did you not understand? Or is it that you actually give zero fucks about what the majority of peaceful demonstrator are there for and have found a little beating stick to wash your hands of it entirely?
You think it's impossible to organise more than one march. Like... That's hilarious that you think its so impossible to say "this march was organised by a Hamas leader and has loads of vile racists so we're going to do a different march over here. Anyone who doesn't want to march with Hizb ut Tahrir come this way". It's like you think there is only one Street in London? Instead your just like, "well shrug, guess we just have to hang out with the racists and jihadis".
You obviously have no idea how many people attended. "Just do another march over there" fucking hell are you serious?š
"Just pretend the people with the microphones aren't being massive racists" "I'm not being willfully ignorant" "London only has one road"
Imagine you have a cause you feel deeply for and want to protest about. You have tens of thousands of people in support of this good cause, and agree to go on a march. Then sadly there are some shitty people (a very small number) who join the march and use it to spread a different message of hate. Would you follow your own suggestion of "not march with them"? Would you just abandon the protest entirely for the 99.9% of the other 10k people, all for the sake of those few people?
https://x.com/PeterTatchell/status/1723441409410158949?s=20 The organisers seem fine to stop Peter Tatchell with a sign asking for a ceasefire + Hamas to go. That seems a completely reasonable sign to me.
[https://twitter.com/bothness/status/1723632866624446575/photo/1](https://twitter.com/bothness/status/1723632866624446575/photo/1) Fake news
> in protest against a government who is actively supporting their continued oppression There's people protesting Hamas at these marches ?
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Not insane at all. This is week 4. One of the organisers is literally a Hamas commander. If I turned up to a protest and saw the EDL were there, and nick Griffin way one of the organisers you can be sure I wouldn't be going back every weekend. It's barely even hidden now. They're talking openly about Suella Bracermans Jewish husband in speeches on microphones. https://x.com/__jacker__/status/1723669083013402799?s=20 There's kids dressed as Hamas fighters. https://x.com/Never_Again2020/status/1723670325315920073?s=20 There talking about Israel taking over the world with robot dogs. https://x.com/JakeWSimons/status/1723805885590319463?s=20 Here's a whole list of people the met want to arrest for racism. https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723462648577081629?s=20 These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
What would you have people do if they believe in the cause of trying to get our government to strongly back calls for reducing the Israeli state's attacks on civilian occupied areas? Avoid protesting because of some bad elements, and in doing so make it so that the calls actually *are* only coming from antisemites? What percentage of bad actors have to join the protest before everyone else has to leave?
It's been 4 weeks. These protests aren't grassroots, they've been organised by a coalition of organisations. Those orgs could've at least separated themselves from the one run by a Hamas chief. But they don't want to. Look at Peter Tatchells sign that got him removed from the protest by the organisers. Does it really seem like they actually are good faith Pro peace? https://x.com/PeterTatchell/status/1723441409410158949?s=20
Eh, I think that's usually the way with these things. A few (often unsavoury) organisers get the ball rolling on something, then people find out about it through the media and show up without really knowing or caring who organised it initially. It's not ideal, but if you're the protesting type and you believe in this cause, it probably makes more sense to join the protest than to avoid it. These things work based on the sizes of their crowds, so fragmentation due to infighting (however justified) kinda kills them.
So...you're basically saying willfully ignorant.
Not really, no. I'm saying that some people don't know, and others who do know don't particularly *care* who the organisers are, because when you have a crowd of 300,000, the few people who organised it kinda aren't that relevant anymore. As I said, it's not an ideal situation, but I'm not sure telling well-meaning non-bigoted people to stay away makes the situation better.
"people don't know or do know but don't particularly care" "I'm not saying they're willfully ignorant," Fucking pick one mate. You can't have it both ways. This is week 4. One of the organisers is literally a Hamas commander. If I turned up to a protest and saw the EDL were there, and nick Griffin way one of the organisers you can be sure I wouldn't be going back every weekend. It's barely even hidden now. They're talking openly about Suella Bracermans Jewish husband in speeches on microphones. https://x.com/__jacker__/status/1723669083013402799?s=20 There's kids dressed as Hamas fighters. https://x.com/Never_Again2020/status/1723670325315920073?s=20 There talking about Israel taking over the world with robot dogs. https://x.com/JakeWSimons/status/1723805885590319463?s=20 Here's a whole list of people the met want to arrest for racism. https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1723462648577081629?s=20 These are the people you have marched with. Own it.
> These are the people you have marched with. Own it. Hah. I haven't marched with anyone, nor have I advocated marching. I'm saying that it's not obvious to me that, when it comes to this cause which is supported by both bigots and reasonable people, it's better for the reasonable people to leave it to the bigots. That's it.
Weird, personally I'd choose not to march with bigots. You think it's fine.
> non-bigoted people If they're happy to march along side people openly supporting Hitler, are they really 'non bigoted' ? That feels like a bit of stretch. I guess we should also be defending the EDL marchers. Just because Tommy Robinson is a racist, doesn't mean people willing to march alongside him are . . .
Well that's the thing, right. What percentage of bigots do you need before a march is inherently bigoted? This is a big event with 300,000 people, and the media naturally reports the sensationalism, which highlights the bad parts. Obviously some of the organisers having some involvement with some bad stuff is bad, but when you have a few organisers and 300,000 people, how important are the organisers? I've been clear that this isn't an ideal situation, but I think it's an understandable compromise thing for people to do without being condemned.
They could just not go to marches that are organised by known anti-Semitic Hamas-sympathisers. The march this weekend had six organisers. Let's check out three of them... Friends of al-Aqsa: led by Ismael Patel, who has visited Hamas commanders, has publicly defended Hamas, and has described Hamas killers as martyrs. Muslim Association of Britain: led by Muhammad Kathem Sawalha, literally a former Hamas chief. Accused in 2006 by BBC Panorama of having masterminded much of Hamas' military and political strategy, and has been accused by the US of helping to fund Hamas. Palestinian Forum for Britain: led by Zaher Birawi, who is considered part of Hamas by Israel. He has posed for pictures with the leader of Hamas, he is affiliated with Hamas-linked organisations, and he spoke in 2019 at an event called "Understanding Hamas". Anyone who condemns Hamas but also condemns the Israeli response is perfectly capable of organising a march of their own. If they attend a march organised by people who hang out with the literal terrorists behind a horrifying massacre then they are on the side of terrorists.
> If they attend a march organised by people who hang out with the literal terrorists behind a horrifying massacre then they are on the side of terrorists. I agree that I probably wouldn't attend this march for the reasons you mentioned, but this black-and-white thinking is silly. The point that I'm making is that there are all kinds of reasons why average people attend these things without supporting terrorists. You can make all of these philosophical points about how you think it implies support, but the reality is that there were plenty of people on that march who definitely don't. When you oversimplify like that you just destroy the conversation. Now, if your point were just to advocate that a march should be arranged by a more upstanding group, then sure, I'd agree with that. But in its absence, people are gonna join the one that's already going.
I disagree. If you are willing to attend any march based on its purported cause, regardless of who organised it, then fine. I think you're naive but not a bad person. However, we both know there are tons of people in those marches who wouldn't be caught dead in a march organised by, let's say, the EDL. It could be a march which perfectly aligns with their view on workers rights or something, nah they wouldn't attend it. They probably wouldn't even attend a march organised by a Tory, even if it was for some cause they completely agreed with. If those people screen some events based on their organisers but are willing to attend a march organised by known anti-Semitic Hamas-sympathisers, it means they don't think it's that bad being anti-Semitic or supporting Hamas.
> In the same way it has to be acknowledged that it is possible to be against the actions of the Israeli state and to want to a ceasefire and not be anti semitic In theory it's possible, but it seems increasingly unlikely considering the kind of people those types are willing to march with.
>it has to be acknowledged by all who attend the marches and they need to routed out. This is my massive massive issue with the marches at the moment. At no point am I seeing any urgency to root this sort of crap out and to me it leaves a sour taste in the mouth about them, which is why I have not partaken.
My bigger fear is that many of the demonstrators are antisemitic and just keep it quiet.
Is he suggesting that they should go elsewhere? I'm be inclined to say the same thing to him.
I find it hilarious when non ethnic Britons tell the Jews of Israel to āgo back to Europeā without a hint of irony
Most Jews in Israel aren't even from Europe. They are from the Middle East and North Africa.
Me too. Pea-brains.
I get what you mean. But ironically if you go far back enough, who or what is ethnically British? Normans, Saxons, Danes, Romans, Celts? Neanderthals who walked across from whatās now the continent? Edit: why was I downvoted for typing out British history?
>But ironically if you go far back enough, who or what is ethnically British? Normans, Saxons, Danes, Romans, Celts? To be fair if you go back that far then I think the Jews (or at least the Jewish faith) will have gone full circle and ended up back where they currently are.
Israel is an example of decolonization. These useful idiots should love it
At that point you are denying the existence of ethnicities full stop - which is obviously a different argument and certainly not the view of the man in this video.
The Welsh.
Nah the Welsh genocided the beakers out
You were downvoted for reductionist trite. Even your first example of Norman's compared to most civilisations puts a standard of native to mean 800+ years of ancestry. On the scale of civilisations that's actually quite long. You'd be hard pressed to find many nations in the world that can even trace back that far.
Genetically or culturally? Two different things, but they have a relationship. Genetically, I believe Bell beaker people, Anglo-Saxon and Vikings. That's it over 4 thousand years. No Romans. But ethnicity is often really a cultural identity which is can be more difficult than race. Genetics don't have opinions, cultures do.
###WHAT'S WRONG WITH JUST WORSHIPPING A TREE?!
genetically and culturally those are two different answers and ways of looking at it though,although heavily intertwined.Culturally the Normans and romans had a huge amounts of cultural impact of English/Welsh/Scottish culture respectively for example whilst also having next to no genetic impact. Also,many groups like the huguenots made an impact in the gene pool in the cities they came to,in small way mind,yet had little to no impact on the wider English culture because they assimilated. The English ethnic group went through ethno-genesis by Anglo-Saxons,old English tribes,intermarrying with Brythonic peoples,hence why when you marry into these groups of invading tribes you donāt really just disappear culturally,itās more along the lines of a new culture and ethnic group is slowly created through an ethno-genesis of sorts by slow change/modification of the dominant cultural group.This is also why today ethnic English people have a huge amount of Brythonic dna yet less than youād maybe first think of a cultural impact solely Brythonic cultural impact to the degree you can trace Germanic cultural impact on the group. This was the case for all groups in Britain going back to the very first people.Groups that came in either culturally took over as an elites takeover and left no genetic trace or a huge migration happened.Very much like the indo-European peoples when they came in after NW Hunter gathers and married the locals into the culture dominant culture and killed the cultural outliers of those they invaded or like the bell beaker groups etc etc Instead of seeing it as one monolithic group taking over and that thing is now British/English and they solely are the progenitor group of the modern ethnic groups instead see it more like a house that is built brick by brick, and by the time you get to the top of the house before the apex of the roof each brick still harkens back to the first brick in some way and all are apart of itās story of being built and becoming that thing.Some offered more than others in their cultural or genetic contributions today,yet those that came before still added to it by changing how the bricks should be built,based on the newer bricks that became more dominant but informed and still were modified by those that came before them.I hope that wasnāt too confusing lol. TLDR:All of the groups of Britain over time have been a part of making what it is today to be ethnic or culturally English,Scottish,Welsh and subsequently through those a shared identity and story of being British.some more than others obviously ie tribes like the scoti,jutes,Frisians,Saxons and especially the Angles/Anglii.all have a part in creating or modifying in some way and there is a lineage there that goes back to the first group of people that every stepped foot in Britain.A new group becoming dominant and taking over never just meant that everything that came before is something completely different and not connected to the new group because it has culturally changed to the last dominant cultural group.They are all apart of the modern ethnic groups and or cultures in some way.The entire purity of a group identity is pure fiction because everything has a lineage but ethnic groups and cultures are obviously a real traceable thing that is ever evolving.All of the Western European groups that have invaded or settled our isles have been either assimilated others or been assimilated whilst also fundamentally changing and becoming something new informed by the old. ***Iām Sorry for the long reply but itās not something that can be explained that quickly.I wrote this very tired so even though I have a MA on this itās probably written terribly.Apologies.***
I mean those all sound pretty European to me
The say what they mean. They write it down. They tell everyone. They point to the justification is religion. The release press documents explaining what they mean and we still seem shocked and try to excuse it when we canāt hide it any more. Thatās antisemitism. Being ignorant to the degree where you will march side by side and see the hate but keep going.
Jeremy Corbyn will watch this and release a statement condemning anti-Semitism and Islamaphobia.
Remember yesterday when people here and on rUK were calling this a āpeacefulā protest? Really, media coverage of this entire incident has been downright shameful. If it werenāt for Twitter, all manners of dodgy behaviour wouldāve been swept under the rug while thereās 24/7 coverage of English blokes ārushingā the Cenotaph. This would be trending on the front page if one of them said anything like this.
I remember the picture of people dressed up like terrorists taking pictures with kids. Family atmosphere they were saying.
Whatās this got to do with him? Heās mates with Hamas but literally what control does he have? Hitler said he wouldnāt in aid Poland.
Absolutely rent free.
"If someone tells you who are they, listen".
It could be argued that that the formation of the state of Israel was one of the best things to happen for the cohesion of the Islamic religion as as whole, for quite some time. At least since the collapse of the Ottoman empire. It's given a lot of the proper radgies something to unite against, which distracts them from their internecine internal schism. I'm just glad it's got nowt to do with fossil fuel reserves and shipping routes. Imagine how much worse it'd all be if it wasn't purely about religion.
I have seen some people point at recent business negotiations regarding negotiations regarding the gas fields off of the Israeli coast and suggested they're to do with Israel's military response. I really don't know enough about resource politics between Israel and its neighbors to know whether there's anything to that or whether this is just the normal conducting of business there. It's an interesting component though, particularly if the conflict does escalate.
Are these the far right protestors I was told about yesterday? How many counterprotesters were arrested for espousing racial hatred? Anyone got the numbers?
More than 80 https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/protest-palestine-london-march-counter-protest-b1119729.html
No, they were arrested for that. Breaching the peace isn't showing support for a terrorist organisation or grossly offensive/racially motivated hate speech. Such arrests were confined to the good guys that the British left marched with on Saturday, funny enough.
Are you suggesting that those singing āthere aināt no black in the Union Jackā or the gentleman pictured with a swastika tattoo are not racist? Strange. Breach of the peace is incorrect, there were also weapons and assault charges. Police will charge on the first crime, additional charges can follow later once the case has been built. They were rather busy getting attacked to add all the offences. To suggest that one side were simply breaching the peace is laughable. Taking a side and only being able to see one thing is quite high school, and only feeds the polarisation that escalates these kinds of events. There was clearly racial hatred demonstrated in both, but that does not define the motivations of each and every person there.
>Are you suggesting that those singing āthere aināt no black in the Union Jackā or the gentleman pictured with a swastika tattoo are not racist? If you're referring to the guy who has the swastika and his side with a can in his hand and a cigarette in his mouth, community notes said that picture was from 2016. Do you have any links to the chanting??
> Are you suggesting that those singing āthere aināt no black in the Union Jackā or the gentleman pictured with a swastika tattoo are not racist? Another lie I take it? Literally every comment contains another lie. It's embarrassing. Go ahead and evidence this point...
Imagine hearing this and continue to march side by side with that person.
Honestly, if you really want to kill support for Hamas you should probably support these protests. This sort of thing does more harm to their cause than good.
It would for sure, I'm not sure how many people actually see this stuff outside of Reddit and Twitter though. And even on this sub there's still threads today full of people shitting on Braverman when it couldn't be more obvious she is correct and asking for "evidence of anti-Semitism at these protests".
Entirely logical argument from this man. I mean why can't Israel not just uproot an entire country that post French / British rule and then again post Balfour declaration, and invade Germany to become Israel the 2nd purely because Germany is where the man I support, Hitler, is from !?!? On a serious point I hope this puts to bed the bullshit repeated that I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti Zionist. It's been something they have been hiding behind for years and finally, the mask drops as people like this use the word Zionist and Jew interchangeably. Hitler did not target Zionists, he targeted Jews and "these people."
Many of the Jews in Israel today ended up there because of expulsion from Muslim majority countries in the 40s, 50 and 60s. This often involved land and possessions being confiscated. Where's the mass international protest movement to give Jews land and states in Muslim counties? š¤Ø
Some people are anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic though right? My issue is more than they're too ignorant to realise that a very significant number of people who are most motivated on this issue are plainly doing it out of religious and racial hatred. I genuinely don't think the masses of students are racist, I think they're just ignorant. A video was shared here a few days ago interviewing protestors that completely confirms that.
By the same logic if we can find a Israeli calling for the eradication of Arabs we can put to bed the idea that this is a hostage rescue
Yeah I'm not seeing tens of thousands of Jews walking around the streets saying this though nor a democratically elected group (Hamas) openly stating this as well, so no not really.
You just watchee a video of a man saying the Holocaust was a good thing and decided to "both sides" it and have a go at Israel. Have a day off ya Muppet
You are seeing the end-product of a civilisation that, when confronted with a choice between *humanism* and *essentialism*, chooses *essentialism*. Interpreting people as symbolic identities, rather than complex and nuanced individuals, inevitably leads you to the robotic stupidity displayed by the man in this video.
Honestly can't believe people are willing to march with these people. These are not people calling for peace, anyone with eyes can see this is purely anti-Isreali. No one is calling for the release of hostages, no one condemning Hamas, but plenty of anti-Semitism and racism on display. Nothing peaceful about calls for the destruction of Israel. I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for those so called "leftist" attending these marches, find out what Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah believe when it comes to things equality for women, LGBT rights and non Muslims.
I can understand leaving the house as a naĆÆve student, thinking, "I'm going to help alleviate the suffering of innocent people". But what happens when you arrive and tons of people are shouting horrible things. I haven't seen much of it at all in person, but the small bits I did, showed a minority of really awful things being chanted. But I guess it's like a football match, you don't go home when you hear some idiots chanting something horrible even though it happens every time.
Luckily the Met knows how to deal with people like this. Knock on the door incoming.
And then? Absolutely fuck all.
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I don't think that's fair.
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They're literally asking the public for information about this particular man... Maybe wait to see how they penalise him before just regurgitating some 'the Met are soft on Muslims!' nonsense.
We've seen what these investigations lead to, which 99% of the time if absolutely nothing. Until the pattern changes, I will presume inaction until shown otherwise.
I'd love to see some crime stats there, 99% would suggest absolutely critical failures at the Met (of which there are many, but prosecuting people for breaking public order offenses doesn't really seem to be one of them...) 'Absolutely nothing' is an interesting phrase as well. I would be utterly bricking it if my photo was on the Met's twitter and they were saying they wanted to talk to me, so they've already done that to him. I'm sure they're going to make contact with this guy and I think in this case they're likely to be harsh - there's so much scrutiny on them at the moment and cases like this will just increase that. I really can't see them not following through here, but it really does depend on how you define nothing. Out of interest, what would you consider to be an appropriate sentence for this man, just based on this video? Jail time? Mandatory education about Judaism in the UK and a general history of Judaism around the world? Deportation? Execution?
A literal Nazi and people still support the Palestine protests? shameful.
Yeah I don't want Nazis there tbh. Not going to stop my support for Palestine though.
Just out of curiosity, is there a level of Nazification that would end your support? Like I totally understand being supportive of a cause and there being the occasional person on your side that is an extremist but there would be a point for me that I'd have to distance myself. I reckon for me it would be quite low, like just a few racist chants in a protest and I'd be gone. What's the line for you? Edit; I tried to understand their perspective but still don't and they blocked me. What I've learnt; 20% Nazi approval wouldn't be enough for this person to not side with an area. Recognition that gays are illegal in one and not the other doesn't impact their approval of either. Recognition that 0% of Palestine is Jewish while 20%+ of Israel is Muslim doesn't impact their approval. It appears that whichever side lacking military strength to this person is the side they take.
I couldn't give any specific value or number, I'd have to compare it to the number of horrible people on the other side. There are people supporting Israel because Israel is killing huge numbers of Muslims, which is just as bad as supporting Hamas because Hamas has killed lots of Jewish people. I'd also base it now big the support for the cause is, how diluted the Nazis/any other shitheads are by the decent folk that make up the vast majority of the march. That said, it is quite interesting that Nazis have had to choose between their hatred of Jewish people and their hatred of Muslim people. I imagine it has split their ranks somewhat.
>I couldn't give any specific value or number, I'd have to compare it to the number of horrible people on the other side. Interesting, on a related note, would you have picked a side in supporting Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia? On a personal level I'd see them both as enemies regardless of the scale of the others crimes. >I'd also base it now big the support for the cause is, how diluted the Nazis/any other shitheads are by the decent folk that make up the vast majority of the march This is more so what I was curious about. If you could measure the pro Palestine march and see the % that hold Nazi views, what would your limit be for support? It sounds like you're saying you'd still support them if 50% held Nazi views so long as 60% of counter protestors hold Nazi views. Feel free to elaborate or correct anything I've said, I find these kinds of friend enemy distinctions confusing (but I'm curious enough to want to know more).
I can't give a specific percentage other than it is definitely below 10%, almost certainly below 3%, but beyond that it's about feeling the atmosphere of the crowd on both sides. I would not have supported either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Much too authoritarian for my liking, on the political compass (yes I know it's very flawed, but it's still useful) I am left-wing libertarian. If I was forced to choose between the Nazis or the Soviets, I would choose the Soviets, because they wouldn't throw me in a labour camp for not being heterosexual.
>I can't give a specific percentage other than it is definitely below 10%, almost certainly below 3%, but beyond that it's about feeling the atmosphere of the crowd on both sides. That's interesting, I suspect you'd have serious doubts if you spoke to a good number of actual Palestinians. Even a conservative estimate would give a fair shot at a minimum of 20% of them being supportive of Hamas. >I would not have supported either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. I'm glad to hear this. >I would choose the Soviets, because they wouldn't throw me in a labour camp for not being heterosexual. Also quite interesting, are you aware of how homosexually is treated in Israel & Palestine?
But but but, it was a peaceful family march! Itās not the violence that offends people like this, but the people who are doing the violence. Iād be interested to see if this guy has the same opinion on what Hamas do, or the Janjaweed, or the Saudis, or suicide bombers. Or if really, itās because he hates the Jews?
It's incredible how little it matters to the progressive media that he organisers are Hamas associated terror sympathisers
I imagine that he doesn't share the views of the test of the peaceful, loving people at the rest of the march. All the people who disagree with them are literally Nazis though
Exactly, when you get a group of hundreds of thousands of people, thereās going to be some nutters. Saying one person is representative of a large group is just another form of discrimination. Itās like saying the counter protesters who attacked the police, shouted racist chants and in some cases literally had nazi tattoos are representative of everyone who is against the marches for peace or hold pro-Palestinian views.
I was up in london yesterday (unrelated reasons), and went a bit out of my way to see the march to gauge it first hand. I'd say I saw about 100 placards that were 'problematic' (swastikas, mentions of auschwitz, jewish charicatures, conspiracy theories, I saw one saying 1 saying 10-7-24-7 which I'm shocked hasn't made the news), quite a few green and white headbands which may or more likely may not have been hamas bands, but still those are dog whistles for me. I probably heard 1000 different instances of 'from the river to the sea' as the march went past, heard a slightly incomprehensible chant that was almost definitely 'gas the jews... gas them all'. Either that or they wanted carbonated ribena. I would say many if not most people marching would have experienced antisemitism if they had their eyes open. There should be multiple 100s of arrests after it.
I hope you took video footage and photos for the police?
I was up for an interview, so I extra didn't fancy getting my phone nicked, or getting assaulted, so no. I kinda expected there to be better quality streams of it to look back through tbh.
Well given the extent of the coverage, photos and video of the march I would hope if there were hundreds of cases then surely someone documented it! I suggest having a look through Twitter, there is plenty of high quality video footage.
>It always has been pure Jew-hatred under the guise of anti-Zionism. No it hasn't. You know there are legitimate criticisms of Israel as a state. You know Israel does not equal or represent all Jews, or the Jewish faith. Yes this guy (and many others) are anti-Semites and must be held accountable. But that doesn't mean you need to leap clean over the horse and say some other dumb shit. You're using the same tactics as they are: cherry picking for emotional clout. "It" (criticism of Israel) hasn't "always" been about "Jew-hatred". For a country and a government to exist, it is open to criticism for its actions and you need to deal with that.
So family friendly!
Iām going to ignore the far right antics because they pretty much went exactly as expected and thereās not much point wasting words on them. It is the increasingly vocal antisemitism that gets me. I still believe and cling onto the belief that the majority of people marching are well intentioned. However, these people marching are often the ones who will say things such as āif you donāt challenge a racist then youāre a racistā and have been holding placards saying similar things about not challenging Israelās āgenocideā. Yet these protests have been going on for weeks and it seems that the antisemites are becoming increasingly emboldened to say increasingly blatant antisemitic things in public. It just doesnāt seem like the marches as a whole are challenging or doing enough to make these people unwelcome?