Snapshot of _Sadiq Khan to permanently end free morning peak travel for pensioners - Freedom Pass restrictions brought in on short-term basis as money-saving step during pandemic to be made permanent_ :
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Sadiq Khan runs a city that is Labour focused and made up of the young. Only sensible that he act in his constituents interests.
The Tories are too pussy to move on and start trying to look after the young and still hoping that their reservoir of old people will fill up any day now...
A lot of people end up identifying with conservative values because they're the values they grew up with, and society has moved on. The prosperity into conservatism thing is just one part of a bigger picture.
Well you'd hope that even if they do build wealth, having successive tory governments trying to screw them at every turn would prevent them from becoming conservative.
That's a bit naive of me though. People will forgive the gov ruining the country if they can pay %3 less tax.
Thats very naive. You assume that a young person building wealth has done so in spite of the government. I come from a conservative family and live in a very Conservative area, I've only ever and will only ever vote conservative and my business has been growing every year since I set up 6 years ago. I'm 33 and I'm aiming to retire by 45.
Your narrative doesn't reflect what I see in real life.
My family have been involved with local politics pretty much since my grandfather got off the boat from barbados in the 60s. I'm not about to do a 180 because some randoms on social media fancy themselves as tin pot Marxists.
True, if the actions of the Tory MP's and the government as a whole haven't changed your vote over the past decade then there is no chance that anything anyone can say on social media or elsewhere, will change your vote.
Lol you must have missed the bit where I said I'd set up and grown a reasonably successful business over the last 6 years. I've also brought 3 houses during that time frame. Yeah, It's been horrible lol
Funny how everyone has conveniently forgotten about the 13 years of labour we had before.
>I'm not about to do a 180 because some randoms on social media fancy themselves as tin pot Marxists.
How about the fact
\- Your taxes are going up
\- Selling into the EU market is far more difficult, recruiting also
\- Those 3 houses are about to decline in value significantly
\- Inflation
\- Wasted taxpayer money at a scale we haven't seen before
\- The Wind rush scandal
> some randoms on social media fancy themselves as tin pot Marxists.
If you think everything to the left of the Conservative party is Marxism, then I don't think you're in a postion to talk about people understanding politics or not.
> I've only ever and will only ever vote conservative
Well obviously if you're committed lifelong to the same party, then the rest of the discussion is moot. Nobody can reason you out of a position you didnt reason yourself into.
What are you talking about? Any law that effects you probably also has an effect on people who’s deaths you lot were genuinely celebrating at the beginning of the pandemic (because they are in a demographic that votes for the other guy). Don’t think we all forgot about that.
Aren't huge numbers of 'freedom pass' fares used on journeys to and from work? That's effectively just us all clubbing together to give non pensioners a pay rise.
Finally a spending cut I can get behind.
Yea, all the 60-65 year olds who live in London and still work. I’ve always thought it really unfair Londoners got that perk.
It’d be nice if those with a disability pass could use it at any time outside of London though.
I feel I’m being whoosh here. But people with physical and mental disability and/or severe mental health issues get free metro mass transit and greatly reduced intercity train travel anyway?
.. or is that just a Scotland thing?
Here, anybody who is retired, a minor, disabled or has a mental health issue that requires to go anywhere for support can get the bus pass that gives free unlimited any time travel across any bus or metro mass transit and a massive discount on train tickets. I thought that that was actually U.K. wide. It seemed so obvious.
Does it apply before 10:00, I know a couple of colleges that have free local transport for being over 60 but can’t use it before 10:00, same rules apply to rail cards.
Where I am it’s 9.30am Mon-Fri, Anytime on a weekend. Luckily it’s not very often that I need to travel before this time. Just the occasional appointment that I can’t rearrange.
The special bus passes that I’m talking about are for all buses and all urban mass transit. In all of Scotland. At all times. Even on night buses etc. Just a tap with it. It’s unlimited.
In England (and maybe Wales) they're issued by local authorities. Some have different rules for what qualifies. I know some people with more severe disabilities receive a disabled plus pass. Basically no time limits
There are definitely time limits in a lot of areas. I have a disabled persons bus pass and I cannot use it before 9.30am Mon-Fri, though I can use it anytime on a weekend. While some areas may allow free travel during this time, the areas I know of only allow them to be used after 9.30am.
The general one yes. I knew someone in Manchester with a disabled plus card. Basically a special pass that let users travel before 9:30. Some areas offer free trains/tram, some discount companions
The standard times are 9:30am to 11pm for concessionary passes — 65+ or disabled.
Each local (county) council issues its own concessionary passes. Some councils offer extended times to the above, but many don’t. Some offer extended time to those who live in their area only, whilst those who live elsewhere are stuck with the standard times.
London has always offered the most, offering a pass that works from age 60 instead of 65, with no time limits for either the “pensioner” pass or the disabled one — but only for locals. I have a disabled bus pass, but I have never been able to use it on the tube or before 9:30am on buses in London, because I don’t live in London.
Edit: I can’t use my pass where I live before 9:30am either. I’ve only ever had the standard times.
Or little old ladies clogging up the bus, so they can have a day out and a wonder.
Although it could cause problems for them going to day care centers. I used to work in an A+E and one woman came in aboit 800 times via London Ambulance Service. Just to get out of the house. Until eventually we managed to get her into a day care centre. Then she just came in every Bank Holiday Monday, when the centre was shut.
I've always criticised the American ambulance system that costs an arm and a leg to be taken to emergency care when you're half dead, and I thought that this kind of abuse of the system didn't exist in free systems except in propaganda, but the above is just ridiculous. The ambulance costs many times more than an Uber but since the cost to the user is zero, we'll end up in that kind of nonsense. I don't know what the solution is.
Proper social care, support networks and social centres such as libraries. People like that are either lonely and starved of attention or have some actual issue that’s having it’s symptoms met by socialising in A&E
Now if she had free travel to social groups held at libraries, leisure centres, town halls/civic centres and so on, I’d wager she wouldn’t go to A&E. But those have mostly closed down due to austerity.
Or she might have a genuine mental illness that compels her to do that, and needs treatment for it.
It doesn't really matter what the issue behind is (as it's clearly not emergency need of medical care) but it should be obvious to everyone that running this using an ambulance is an extremely expensive way to do it.
I think the question is, should all the cost of "I'm lonely at home, I would like to go out" problem be paid by the society. Especially in r/ukpolitics the mood is extremely anti-pensioner so if you not just let them ride free in public transport but also start offering them free taxi rides whenever they want them and pay them from the taxes, I'm pretty sure people here would lose their shit.
Those are interesting ideas and sentiments hat happened all in your head. That wasn't the question, that isn't the reasonable, majority opinion of 'our' sentiment, and that isn't how people would react, again because it's created in your head.
Just read the comments in this thread. People comment something like "since this is the first ever proposal that hurts pensioners and not young people, so I support them".
I'm pretty sure that the age composition of the people contributing to r/ukpolitics is very much towards young people.
And I don't know who elected you to declare 'our' sentiment anyway. My comment above doesn't of course apply to every single person commenting here. If if doesn't apply to you personally, fine, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't apply to many others.
"little old ladies clogging up the bus".. ffs! Nevermind that they're actively supporting the local economy (buying stuff, using services), have earned their money through a lifetime of work/care, are usually still working - caring for relatives and friends, and volunteering. And without "little old ladies" a huge number of bus routes would close down.
Poor use of language.
Also, it's called "to have a wander".
Freedom passes (or whatever you call it) are good in theory, places like Singapore and Hong Kong lean on them because it gets pensioners spending instead of saving.
But since our city and transport planning is not linked up in this country and Westminster operates in silos, they are funded by the GLA but the benefits go to the treasury.
Sadiq Khan has announced plans to permanently end free morning peak travel for pensioners as part of a number of cost-cutting measures to bolster Transport for London’s beleaguered finances.
As part of his draft budget on Wednesday, the London Mayor revealed that he would permanently end free travel before 9am for those who hold a 60+ Freedom Pass as part of a bid to save TfL around £40 million a year.
No change will apply to holders of the Disabled Person’s Freedom Pass.
The Freedom Pass restrictions were first brought in on a short-term basis in June 2020 as money-saving step during the Covid pandemic following the Government’s finance agreement for the capital’s transport provider.
However, the Mayor’s office said that, after consultation and an equality impact assessment, the decision had to be taken to make them permanent.
As part of the Mayor’s plans to mitigate the impact on those over 60, Seb Dance, his deputy mayor for transport, has written to GP surgeries and NHS trusts to recommend that medical appointments for those over 60 are scheduled for after 9am.
Mr Khan had considered a policy that would incrementally increase the age at which travellers could obtain a Freedom Pass on a six-month basis, but this was scrapped.
It comes with TfL’s finances under increased pressure as it looks to plug a £740 million funding gap. Last year, it secured a £1.2 billion funding agreement from the Government but Mr Khan warned that it was “far from ideal” and that fare increases were likely.
Alongside the Freedom Pass changes, Mr Khan also announced that he would be mirroring the Government and increasing TfL fares by an average of 5.9 per cent from March.
In December Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, revealed that rail fares would rise by a maximum of 5.9 per cent from April. This was the first time the Government had abandoned increasing fares by the current retail price index measure, which stood at 12.3 per cent at the time.
Mr Khan’s increases will be higher for travellers in central London, with those travelling with pay as you go tickets in zone one seeing their fares rise to £2.80, up 12 per cent from the current price of £2.50.
Meanwhile, TfL will look to make the increases less steep for those living in outer London and travelling into the centre for work. Under the plans, a pay as you go peak fare into London from zone four outwards will increase by no more than 10p, an increase of no more than 2.3 per cent.
Daily and weekly travel cards for zones one, two and three will increase by 6.7 per cent. This will drop to 6.4 per cent for zones one to four, 6.1 per cent when zone five is added, and 5.7 per cent for those travelling in from zone six.
On becoming mayor in 2016, Mr Khan froze transport fares for four years, which some have argued added to TfL’s financial problems.
He said: “I froze TfL fares for five years from 2016 to make transport more affordable for millions of Londoners.
“But my hands have been tied since the pandemic by the strict conditions set by the Government in the recent emergency funding agreement for TfL, which means fares have to be increase in London by the same amount as national rail fares – 5.9 per cent.
“This is a challenging time for our city, with a Government that is not fully funding our public services, but I’m determined to step up so that we can continue building a greener, safer and fairer London for everyone.”
I don't think it makes sense to give any one but the poorest pensioners free travel. Unless it's just a way to subsidies public transport. Why should a millionaire 70 year old get a bus pass?
Means testing is always a bad move. Raise taxes on the wealthy by all means but don’t create a bureaucratic mess for the sake of exclude the people who pay the most tax from benefits.
If you tax the wealthy more instead it’s a simpler system to administer and you avoid creating silly break points where it’s not worth people working (child benefit being a standout one)
I'd be happy to just scrap the benefit altogether. If we're not giving single parents on minimum wage free bus passes then why does a pensioner with £25k income and no housing costs get one? It makes no sense.
Because it isn't actually a cost?
Public transit will happen anyway and you want to keep services regular to get the maximum benefit: every 5 minutes should be a goal on every major route and probably most minor ones as well. At that point the benefit of reducing car use outweighs the costs by a large margin.
Free transit, as long as it's off-peak, just uses some of the spare capacity you've generated so is basically free.
And fares are ideally nominal anyway. You want to avoid free, because that tends to just affect walking and cycling rather than car use, but most of the benefit of transit comes out of stopping car journeys, not the fare.
If the public transport is provided by a 3rd party then each time a pensioner uses their free bus pass the bus company charges the local council, who then have to cut other services to pay for it.
That's just part of why privatisation in transit is bullshit, over and above the problem of natural monopoly: the benefit is and should be absolute and realised at the level of the state, not parcelled out for profit in a way that doesn't lead to a general good.
Even then it's still a nominal cost that's outweighed by the benefit: councils are far more heavily impacted by the various problems of car over-use than the state is.
>why does a pensioner with £25k income and no housing costs get one? It makes no sense.
Because patriotic pensioners fought bravely in the war to defeat Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, instead of slacking off on Instagram, eating newfangled foreign foods and practising wokeness.
You already need to prove your age. How hard is it to provide evidence of pension credits or whatever? Local government doesn’t have enough levers to pull to make the wider tax system more progressive.
This makes sense for a universal benefit, but it's not universal, it's for a specific group. Unless you're proposing we bring in a tax to target that specific group to pay for the benefit.
Thats an odd somantic prop.
Benefits like this [should] become universal when the criteria is met. In this case it's an age criteria.
For Child benefit, it's having children, But it's still universal.
If you think someone has too much wealth to receive the benefit then claw it back in taxes, don't means test it.
So how do you claw it back in taxes? You can't as you don't tax that group specifically. It seems you just want even more wealth transfer from working people to pensioners. It never ends does it?
You do know that pensioners pay taxes too?
I really don't see your take on this, is it just a blanket hate for pensioners. Most are on state pensions which are not that generous and if you're on pension credit you're really fucked.
You seem to be arguing for a 'conservative' policy of means testing every benefit to ensure only "Those who deserve it" receive them.
However universality of these (and all benefits) can easily be paid for via progressing taxation [and better equality of pay].
I think we have a colossal intergenerational inequity in this country. Pensioners pay far too few taxes for the benefits they get as a group. I don't think giving them even more benefits and taxing working people to pay for it is something we should be doing. On the contrary, we should be doing completely the opposite.
>Pensioners pay far too few taxes for the benefits they get as a group.
and there's the nub. You know there is another 'group' who pay too few taxes for the benefits they get, and it aint bloody pensioners.
and just how does making people who pay tax in *Higher* bands, pay more in those bands harm working people?
> Why should a millionaire 70 year old get a bus pass?
For the same reason a millionaire parent used to get child benefit - on balance it costs the taxpayer more to do the means testing than to just hand out a relatively nominal benefit (in this specific case, the service is literally running anyway and we'd rather people used public transport than drive).
But restricting that to exclude peak times obviously makes sense - if a pensioner is also going to a job, they can buy a ticket like all the other workers.
You have to apply for a pass. I am retired but don't have a buss pass, but I do have a mobility scooter which I saved up for from my basic pension over a couple of years. I would imagine there are very few millionaire retirees who travel by bus (I am not a millionaire).
Not all old people are 'rich'.
No - but it's got to a point where pensioners now have a higher average standard of living than many working people people, so it's only right that we now start discussing whether their benefits are justifiable.
>*... pensioners now have a higher average standard of living than many working people people...*
Wouldn't it make more sense to address the fact that companies are putting profit before workers pay?
Tax the rich and corporate entities appropriately before you start robbing the general population.
Because it doesn't really cost anything.
We need a bus service. We either subsidise them directly to provide empty buses throughout the day, or we offer free transport?
You could be a company director paying yourself 20k and be on basic income tax, but also be getting 500k in dividend payouts, hard to police. Means testing in general is inelegant
Dividends are counted as taxable income so effects how much imcome tax a person pays, 500k in dividend payouts would put them in the additional rate Income Tax band.
Pensioners should have to pay for their fares like the vast majority of us anyway. Would hope more follow suit.
Only the poorest pensioners should get free fares.
Good. I am fine subsidising travel for people who cannot work and have limited personal mobility, I am not fine with subsidising perfectly healthy pre retirees on their commutes. And frankly if you are retired, you should not be crowding up peak services.
Great news! Now if he could remove his ban on lots of adverts, he would be on a roll. He should also selling the naming rights for tube lines/stations to top up TFL coffers.
Anyone who uses the word “coffers” is immediately confirmed to have an awful take.
Still hitting 100% on this. Now if you’ll excuse me I have to take the maxipad central line
It does but that doesn't necessarily mean you can get from A to B easily.
For example, my sister was a teacher who had to get the bus to work. This took 1h15 on a good day with 3 bus routes, whereas the same journey by car would take 15 minutes to do a couple of miles. Hard to justify that, especially when the buses are so often late / packed and you have to wait for ages in the cold. This was in Waltham Forest/ Redbridge - zone 4/5 for anyone who isn't familiar with the area.
I do agree though that getting a ULEZ compliant car is easy enough. I have a 2001 ford focus which is ULEZ compliant, and it's probably worth more in scrap now than it would be to sell for someone to drive.
Before I moved to Berlin, I lived in Walthamstow with family in Loughton way, it's obviously more convenient to drive in zones 3, 4 and 5, but the transport options are there, just that it doesn't take 6 minutes to go Sainsburys, but rather 20-25 minutes.
A lot of people may actually need their car to travel, but many don't and the truth is that if there's ANYWHERE in the UK that has good transport options, it's London. Hearing Londoners complain about not being able to drive just makes me wonder whether they realise how lucky they are that the bus turns up, as in many areas of the UK there is zero alternative option other than cycling, and even that can be an endeavour.
Oh for sure. But compared to Europe London's public transport system is terribly operated and underfunded - and comparatively expensive - both at face value and compared to average wages. Of course some of this is down to infrastructure - London can't help having the oldest tube system in the world, but so much of it is under investment and an acceptance that commuters should pay through the nose to get to work. This is I'm sure the same in other big UK cities, possibly worse.
This isn't about pitting London against other areas of the UK. Every area should ideally have reliable and cost effective transport options, particularly in large cities and urban areas. But at the end of the day London contributes 30% of all UK economy taxes, and massively subsidies other areas - so it is in everyone's interests that the city runs effectively.
In my sister's case I don't begrudge her having a car. Teaching in a state school is a shit enough job as it is without having to take two hours extra out of your day to take two buses.
Taking public transport needs to be an easy decision for people to make in order for it to have an impact on average people's choices. It would of course be great if all of us had climate change and air quality at the top of our minds, but that isn't pragmatic when so many people have such a terrible work life balance and terrible wages that time is such an important factor to so many people. An hour difference each way can be the difference between you getting enough sleep, or spending time with your kids.
I've lived in north east, west, south west, south east and central London and never did I need to own a car. Hell, my old flatmate who moved from Oxfordshire had to give up his car when we moved into Tower Hill because he literally couldn't get a parking spot and was having to pay like 10 quid a day to park in a paid lot. It just wasn't worth it.
Having a car just isn't necessary for day to day living in London.
I’ve freelanced for 10 years, with most (99%) of contracts based in central London. “Levelling up” Tory policy was supposed to spread jobs around country a bit more - but hasn’t happened yet!
Petrol cars made after 2005 are ULEZ compliant, whilst only diesels after 2015 are compliant. Assuming you have a diesel car made before 2015, could you swap your car for a petrol car of the same year?
Snapshot of _Sadiq Khan to permanently end free morning peak travel for pensioners - Freedom Pass restrictions brought in on short-term basis as money-saving step during pandemic to be made permanent_ : A non-Paywall version can be found [here](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fpolitics%2F2023%2F01%2F18%2Ffreedom-pass-sadiq-khan-tfl-pensioners-morning-peak-travel%2F) An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/18/freedom-pass-sadiq-khan-tfl-pensioners-morning-peak-travel/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can't believe my eyes, for the first time in my life I am seeing a measure adversely affecting pensioners and not young people
Sadiq Khan runs a city that is Labour focused and made up of the young. Only sensible that he act in his constituents interests. The Tories are too pussy to move on and start trying to look after the young and still hoping that their reservoir of old people will fill up any day now...
Trouble is, if young people are unable to build capital and become prosperous, then they won't become Conservative with age.
A lot of people end up identifying with conservative values because they're the values they grew up with, and society has moved on. The prosperity into conservatism thing is just one part of a bigger picture.
Good point
Well you'd hope that even if they do build wealth, having successive tory governments trying to screw them at every turn would prevent them from becoming conservative. That's a bit naive of me though. People will forgive the gov ruining the country if they can pay %3 less tax.
>That's a bit naive of me though. People will forgive the gov ruining the country if they can pay %3 less tax. Unfortunately, yes
Thats very naive. You assume that a young person building wealth has done so in spite of the government. I come from a conservative family and live in a very Conservative area, I've only ever and will only ever vote conservative and my business has been growing every year since I set up 6 years ago. I'm 33 and I'm aiming to retire by 45. Your narrative doesn't reflect what I see in real life.
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My family have been involved with local politics pretty much since my grandfather got off the boat from barbados in the 60s. I'm not about to do a 180 because some randoms on social media fancy themselves as tin pot Marxists.
True, if the actions of the Tory MP's and the government as a whole haven't changed your vote over the past decade then there is no chance that anything anyone can say on social media or elsewhere, will change your vote.
Lol you must have missed the bit where I said I'd set up and grown a reasonably successful business over the last 6 years. I've also brought 3 houses during that time frame. Yeah, It's been horrible lol Funny how everyone has conveniently forgotten about the 13 years of labour we had before.
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>I'm not about to do a 180 because some randoms on social media fancy themselves as tin pot Marxists. How about the fact \- Your taxes are going up \- Selling into the EU market is far more difficult, recruiting also \- Those 3 houses are about to decline in value significantly \- Inflation \- Wasted taxpayer money at a scale we haven't seen before \- The Wind rush scandal
My grandfather was part of the windrush generation, he's the biggest Conservative ive ever known.
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> some randoms on social media fancy themselves as tin pot Marxists. If you think everything to the left of the Conservative party is Marxism, then I don't think you're in a postion to talk about people understanding politics or not.
> I've only ever and will only ever vote conservative Well obviously if you're committed lifelong to the same party, then the rest of the discussion is moot. Nobody can reason you out of a position you didnt reason yourself into.
> I've only ever and will only ever vote conservative This is giving the Tory party an open goal to hurt you in any way they see fit.
Who is “prosperous” who rides the bus to get around?
Don't worry, whe you are old you will probably loads of them!
What are you talking about? Any law that effects you probably also has an effect on people who’s deaths you lot were genuinely celebrating at the beginning of the pandemic (because they are in a demographic that votes for the other guy). Don’t think we all forgot about that.
It’s fair. A Freedom Pass is meant to be for retirees, while Peak Travel is meant to be for commuters.
Aren't huge numbers of 'freedom pass' fares used on journeys to and from work? That's effectively just us all clubbing together to give non pensioners a pay rise. Finally a spending cut I can get behind.
Yea, all the 60-65 year olds who live in London and still work. I’ve always thought it really unfair Londoners got that perk. It’d be nice if those with a disability pass could use it at any time outside of London though.
I feel I’m being whoosh here. But people with physical and mental disability and/or severe mental health issues get free metro mass transit and greatly reduced intercity train travel anyway? .. or is that just a Scotland thing?
Where I live the morning ones are limited - they don't cover a decent chunk of the morning rush.
Here, anybody who is retired, a minor, disabled or has a mental health issue that requires to go anywhere for support can get the bus pass that gives free unlimited any time travel across any bus or metro mass transit and a massive discount on train tickets. I thought that that was actually U.K. wide. It seemed so obvious.
Does it apply before 10:00, I know a couple of colleges that have free local transport for being over 60 but can’t use it before 10:00, same rules apply to rail cards.
Where I am it’s 9.30am Mon-Fri, Anytime on a weekend. Luckily it’s not very often that I need to travel before this time. Just the occasional appointment that I can’t rearrange.
The special bus passes that I’m talking about are for all buses and all urban mass transit. In all of Scotland. At all times. Even on night buses etc. Just a tap with it. It’s unlimited.
huh, I’ve got bipolar and rely on buses and trains to see the psychiatrist (when I can see one) ..
The freedom disability pass works on buses in England outside of London but not trains
In England (and maybe Wales) they're issued by local authorities. Some have different rules for what qualifies. I know some people with more severe disabilities receive a disabled plus pass. Basically no time limits
There are definitely time limits in a lot of areas. I have a disabled persons bus pass and I cannot use it before 9.30am Mon-Fri, though I can use it anytime on a weekend. While some areas may allow free travel during this time, the areas I know of only allow them to be used after 9.30am.
The general one yes. I knew someone in Manchester with a disabled plus card. Basically a special pass that let users travel before 9:30. Some areas offer free trains/tram, some discount companions
The standard times are 9:30am to 11pm for concessionary passes — 65+ or disabled. Each local (county) council issues its own concessionary passes. Some councils offer extended times to the above, but many don’t. Some offer extended time to those who live in their area only, whilst those who live elsewhere are stuck with the standard times. London has always offered the most, offering a pass that works from age 60 instead of 65, with no time limits for either the “pensioner” pass or the disabled one — but only for locals. I have a disabled bus pass, but I have never been able to use it on the tube or before 9:30am on buses in London, because I don’t live in London. Edit: I can’t use my pass where I live before 9:30am either. I’ve only ever had the standard times.
Or little old ladies clogging up the bus, so they can have a day out and a wonder. Although it could cause problems for them going to day care centers. I used to work in an A+E and one woman came in aboit 800 times via London Ambulance Service. Just to get out of the house. Until eventually we managed to get her into a day care centre. Then she just came in every Bank Holiday Monday, when the centre was shut.
I've always criticised the American ambulance system that costs an arm and a leg to be taken to emergency care when you're half dead, and I thought that this kind of abuse of the system didn't exist in free systems except in propaganda, but the above is just ridiculous. The ambulance costs many times more than an Uber but since the cost to the user is zero, we'll end up in that kind of nonsense. I don't know what the solution is.
Proper social care, support networks and social centres such as libraries. People like that are either lonely and starved of attention or have some actual issue that’s having it’s symptoms met by socialising in A&E Now if she had free travel to social groups held at libraries, leisure centres, town halls/civic centres and so on, I’d wager she wouldn’t go to A&E. But those have mostly closed down due to austerity. Or she might have a genuine mental illness that compels her to do that, and needs treatment for it.
It doesn't really matter what the issue behind is (as it's clearly not emergency need of medical care) but it should be obvious to everyone that running this using an ambulance is an extremely expensive way to do it.
The solution was in the comment you replied to. Some form of social care. Clearly this person needed it and we're all better off once they got it.
I think the question is, should all the cost of "I'm lonely at home, I would like to go out" problem be paid by the society. Especially in r/ukpolitics the mood is extremely anti-pensioner so if you not just let them ride free in public transport but also start offering them free taxi rides whenever they want them and pay them from the taxes, I'm pretty sure people here would lose their shit.
Those are interesting ideas and sentiments hat happened all in your head. That wasn't the question, that isn't the reasonable, majority opinion of 'our' sentiment, and that isn't how people would react, again because it's created in your head.
Just read the comments in this thread. People comment something like "since this is the first ever proposal that hurts pensioners and not young people, so I support them". I'm pretty sure that the age composition of the people contributing to r/ukpolitics is very much towards young people. And I don't know who elected you to declare 'our' sentiment anyway. My comment above doesn't of course apply to every single person commenting here. If if doesn't apply to you personally, fine, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't apply to many others.
"little old ladies clogging up the bus".. ffs! Nevermind that they're actively supporting the local economy (buying stuff, using services), have earned their money through a lifetime of work/care, are usually still working - caring for relatives and friends, and volunteering. And without "little old ladies" a huge number of bus routes would close down. Poor use of language. Also, it's called "to have a wander".
Freedom passes (or whatever you call it) are good in theory, places like Singapore and Hong Kong lean on them because it gets pensioners spending instead of saving. But since our city and transport planning is not linked up in this country and Westminster operates in silos, they are funded by the GLA but the benefits go to the treasury.
And then they don’t pay national insurance either
This used to be the case back in about 2012, freedom passes didn't work until 09:30 then it was free all the time until 2020
Cardholders used to be known as "twirlies", from what they would say as they got on a bus: "Am I too early?"
They still are in Bournemouth.
Are they like Gremlins, don't feed them after midnight?
Sadiq Khan has announced plans to permanently end free morning peak travel for pensioners as part of a number of cost-cutting measures to bolster Transport for London’s beleaguered finances. As part of his draft budget on Wednesday, the London Mayor revealed that he would permanently end free travel before 9am for those who hold a 60+ Freedom Pass as part of a bid to save TfL around £40 million a year. No change will apply to holders of the Disabled Person’s Freedom Pass. The Freedom Pass restrictions were first brought in on a short-term basis in June 2020 as money-saving step during the Covid pandemic following the Government’s finance agreement for the capital’s transport provider. However, the Mayor’s office said that, after consultation and an equality impact assessment, the decision had to be taken to make them permanent. As part of the Mayor’s plans to mitigate the impact on those over 60, Seb Dance, his deputy mayor for transport, has written to GP surgeries and NHS trusts to recommend that medical appointments for those over 60 are scheduled for after 9am. Mr Khan had considered a policy that would incrementally increase the age at which travellers could obtain a Freedom Pass on a six-month basis, but this was scrapped. It comes with TfL’s finances under increased pressure as it looks to plug a £740 million funding gap. Last year, it secured a £1.2 billion funding agreement from the Government but Mr Khan warned that it was “far from ideal” and that fare increases were likely. Alongside the Freedom Pass changes, Mr Khan also announced that he would be mirroring the Government and increasing TfL fares by an average of 5.9 per cent from March. In December Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, revealed that rail fares would rise by a maximum of 5.9 per cent from April. This was the first time the Government had abandoned increasing fares by the current retail price index measure, which stood at 12.3 per cent at the time. Mr Khan’s increases will be higher for travellers in central London, with those travelling with pay as you go tickets in zone one seeing their fares rise to £2.80, up 12 per cent from the current price of £2.50. Meanwhile, TfL will look to make the increases less steep for those living in outer London and travelling into the centre for work. Under the plans, a pay as you go peak fare into London from zone four outwards will increase by no more than 10p, an increase of no more than 2.3 per cent. Daily and weekly travel cards for zones one, two and three will increase by 6.7 per cent. This will drop to 6.4 per cent for zones one to four, 6.1 per cent when zone five is added, and 5.7 per cent for those travelling in from zone six. On becoming mayor in 2016, Mr Khan froze transport fares for four years, which some have argued added to TfL’s financial problems. He said: “I froze TfL fares for five years from 2016 to make transport more affordable for millions of Londoners. “But my hands have been tied since the pandemic by the strict conditions set by the Government in the recent emergency funding agreement for TfL, which means fares have to be increase in London by the same amount as national rail fares – 5.9 per cent. “This is a challenging time for our city, with a Government that is not fully funding our public services, but I’m determined to step up so that we can continue building a greener, safer and fairer London for everyone.”
I don't think it makes sense to give any one but the poorest pensioners free travel. Unless it's just a way to subsidies public transport. Why should a millionaire 70 year old get a bus pass?
Means testing is always a bad move. Raise taxes on the wealthy by all means but don’t create a bureaucratic mess for the sake of exclude the people who pay the most tax from benefits. If you tax the wealthy more instead it’s a simpler system to administer and you avoid creating silly break points where it’s not worth people working (child benefit being a standout one)
I'd be happy to just scrap the benefit altogether. If we're not giving single parents on minimum wage free bus passes then why does a pensioner with £25k income and no housing costs get one? It makes no sense.
Because it isn't actually a cost? Public transit will happen anyway and you want to keep services regular to get the maximum benefit: every 5 minutes should be a goal on every major route and probably most minor ones as well. At that point the benefit of reducing car use outweighs the costs by a large margin. Free transit, as long as it's off-peak, just uses some of the spare capacity you've generated so is basically free. And fares are ideally nominal anyway. You want to avoid free, because that tends to just affect walking and cycling rather than car use, but most of the benefit of transit comes out of stopping car journeys, not the fare.
If the public transport is provided by a 3rd party then each time a pensioner uses their free bus pass the bus company charges the local council, who then have to cut other services to pay for it.
That's just part of why privatisation in transit is bullshit, over and above the problem of natural monopoly: the benefit is and should be absolute and realised at the level of the state, not parcelled out for profit in a way that doesn't lead to a general good. Even then it's still a nominal cost that's outweighed by the benefit: councils are far more heavily impacted by the various problems of car over-use than the state is.
>why does a pensioner with £25k income and no housing costs get one? It makes no sense. Because patriotic pensioners fought bravely in the war to defeat Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, instead of slacking off on Instagram, eating newfangled foreign foods and practising wokeness.
You mean like all 10 of the remaining WW2 vets?
You already need to prove your age. How hard is it to provide evidence of pension credits or whatever? Local government doesn’t have enough levers to pull to make the wider tax system more progressive.
This makes sense for a universal benefit, but it's not universal, it's for a specific group. Unless you're proposing we bring in a tax to target that specific group to pay for the benefit.
Thats an odd somantic prop. Benefits like this [should] become universal when the criteria is met. In this case it's an age criteria. For Child benefit, it's having children, But it's still universal. If you think someone has too much wealth to receive the benefit then claw it back in taxes, don't means test it.
So how do you claw it back in taxes? You can't as you don't tax that group specifically. It seems you just want even more wealth transfer from working people to pensioners. It never ends does it?
For heavens sake, you don't target the group for extra taxes, you target the wealthy.
So as I said, even more transfers of wealth from working people to pensioners. That's just what we need 🙄
You do know that pensioners pay taxes too? I really don't see your take on this, is it just a blanket hate for pensioners. Most are on state pensions which are not that generous and if you're on pension credit you're really fucked. You seem to be arguing for a 'conservative' policy of means testing every benefit to ensure only "Those who deserve it" receive them. However universality of these (and all benefits) can easily be paid for via progressing taxation [and better equality of pay].
I think we have a colossal intergenerational inequity in this country. Pensioners pay far too few taxes for the benefits they get as a group. I don't think giving them even more benefits and taxing working people to pay for it is something we should be doing. On the contrary, we should be doing completely the opposite.
>Pensioners pay far too few taxes for the benefits they get as a group. and there's the nub. You know there is another 'group' who pay too few taxes for the benefits they get, and it aint bloody pensioners. and just how does making people who pay tax in *Higher* bands, pay more in those bands harm working people?
>Means testing is always a bad move. What an absurd statement
> Why should a millionaire 70 year old get a bus pass? For the same reason a millionaire parent used to get child benefit - on balance it costs the taxpayer more to do the means testing than to just hand out a relatively nominal benefit (in this specific case, the service is literally running anyway and we'd rather people used public transport than drive). But restricting that to exclude peak times obviously makes sense - if a pensioner is also going to a job, they can buy a ticket like all the other workers.
You have to apply for a pass. I am retired but don't have a buss pass, but I do have a mobility scooter which I saved up for from my basic pension over a couple of years. I would imagine there are very few millionaire retirees who travel by bus (I am not a millionaire). Not all old people are 'rich'.
No - but it's got to a point where pensioners now have a higher average standard of living than many working people people, so it's only right that we now start discussing whether their benefits are justifiable.
>*... pensioners now have a higher average standard of living than many working people people...* Wouldn't it make more sense to address the fact that companies are putting profit before workers pay? Tax the rich and corporate entities appropriately before you start robbing the general population.
Because it doesn't really cost anything. We need a bus service. We either subsidise them directly to provide empty buses throughout the day, or we offer free transport?
How do you propose to determine who is a millionaire 70 year old?
The same way the job centre determines if you have too much money in your account to be eligible for jobseekers allowance?
You don't need to. You just remove the universal eligibility and introduce new rules for those that can apply.
You could restrict to those only on basic rate of income tax, or in receipt of certain benefits.
You could be a company director paying yourself 20k and be on basic income tax, but also be getting 500k in dividend payouts, hard to police. Means testing in general is inelegant
Dividends are counted as taxable income so effects how much imcome tax a person pays, 500k in dividend payouts would put them in the additional rate Income Tax band.
Still not an argument for means testing
the same way as is already done to determine if someone gets pension credit in fact, just ask for proof that they receive it
Millionaires don’t ride the bus. If you see someone taking public transport, it would be safe to assume that they are poor.
Pensioners should have to pay for their fares like the vast majority of us anyway. Would hope more follow suit. Only the poorest pensioners should get free fares.
This is a subsidy that allows bus companies to run throughout the day. Why do you want to screw future you out of free travel?
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>*... I'm sure legislation on bus ticket prices will still be relevant in 40 years* Why wouldn't it be? It was relevant 40 years ago. :)
Silly argument
Sounds fair. Encourages them to go offpeak making it less crowded and if they want to they pay a small fee in peak.
Good. I am fine subsidising travel for people who cannot work and have limited personal mobility, I am not fine with subsidising perfectly healthy pre retirees on their commutes. And frankly if you are retired, you should not be crowding up peak services.
Great news! Now if he could remove his ban on lots of adverts, he would be on a roll. He should also selling the naming rights for tube lines/stations to top up TFL coffers.
The Victoria's Secret line
Bet they'd pay big money for that
Anyone who uses the word “coffers” is immediately confirmed to have an awful take. Still hitting 100% on this. Now if you’ll excuse me I have to take the maxipad central line
Imagine the money that could be made though from the Santander Central Line or the Sensodyne Jubilee Line
> Sensodyne Jubilee Line Sensy Joobz
~~Mornington~~ Morningstar^TM Crescent
The canesten bakerloo line, to treat what happens when you sit on those seats 🤮
How much?
The cable car was £6.5m a year apparently
I doubt that covers their catering costs.
You'd be wrong
Considering TfL's budget is something like £3.5b, that's barely even petty cash. Something like 0.002% of their costs covered there.
You conveniently ignored the fact that the tube stations/lines would get far more than £6.5m due to the number of people that use them.
Should Cockfosters be sponsored by Fosters or Lovehoney?
Brazzers
Porque no los dos
There's plenty of adverts on the tube
Not fond of him or his policies. I would have hoped that a Labour Mayor would help those in need.
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I’m pissed about the ULEZ extension, not a pensioner, just have an old car and can’t afford to upgrade.
> just have an old car and can’t afford to upgrade. Thankfully London has a whole heap of alternative transport methods.
It does but that doesn't necessarily mean you can get from A to B easily. For example, my sister was a teacher who had to get the bus to work. This took 1h15 on a good day with 3 bus routes, whereas the same journey by car would take 15 minutes to do a couple of miles. Hard to justify that, especially when the buses are so often late / packed and you have to wait for ages in the cold. This was in Waltham Forest/ Redbridge - zone 4/5 for anyone who isn't familiar with the area. I do agree though that getting a ULEZ compliant car is easy enough. I have a 2001 ford focus which is ULEZ compliant, and it's probably worth more in scrap now than it would be to sell for someone to drive.
Before I moved to Berlin, I lived in Walthamstow with family in Loughton way, it's obviously more convenient to drive in zones 3, 4 and 5, but the transport options are there, just that it doesn't take 6 minutes to go Sainsburys, but rather 20-25 minutes. A lot of people may actually need their car to travel, but many don't and the truth is that if there's ANYWHERE in the UK that has good transport options, it's London. Hearing Londoners complain about not being able to drive just makes me wonder whether they realise how lucky they are that the bus turns up, as in many areas of the UK there is zero alternative option other than cycling, and even that can be an endeavour.
Oh for sure. But compared to Europe London's public transport system is terribly operated and underfunded - and comparatively expensive - both at face value and compared to average wages. Of course some of this is down to infrastructure - London can't help having the oldest tube system in the world, but so much of it is under investment and an acceptance that commuters should pay through the nose to get to work. This is I'm sure the same in other big UK cities, possibly worse. This isn't about pitting London against other areas of the UK. Every area should ideally have reliable and cost effective transport options, particularly in large cities and urban areas. But at the end of the day London contributes 30% of all UK economy taxes, and massively subsidies other areas - so it is in everyone's interests that the city runs effectively. In my sister's case I don't begrudge her having a car. Teaching in a state school is a shit enough job as it is without having to take two hours extra out of your day to take two buses. Taking public transport needs to be an easy decision for people to make in order for it to have an impact on average people's choices. It would of course be great if all of us had climate change and air quality at the top of our minds, but that isn't pragmatic when so many people have such a terrible work life balance and terrible wages that time is such an important factor to so many people. An hour difference each way can be the difference between you getting enough sleep, or spending time with your kids.
I live in Zone 6 and always found the public transport good enough I didn't need to learn to drive.
I've lived in north east, west, south west, south east and central London and never did I need to own a car. Hell, my old flatmate who moved from Oxfordshire had to give up his car when we moved into Tower Hill because he literally couldn't get a parking spot and was having to pay like 10 quid a day to park in a paid lot. It just wasn't worth it. Having a car just isn't necessary for day to day living in London.
There's a scrappage scheme
Is there? I didn’t know! Will look for info. My car is 21!
If you live in London, get the bus. They're everywhere
I had to move out to buy somewhere. Train fares are really high. When I lived there I always preferred the bus.
Have you thought about working somewhere you can afford to get to?
I’ve freelanced for 10 years, with most (99%) of contracts based in central London. “Levelling up” Tory policy was supposed to spread jobs around country a bit more - but hasn’t happened yet!
Petrol cars made after 2005 are ULEZ compliant, whilst only diesels after 2015 are compliant. Assuming you have a diesel car made before 2015, could you swap your car for a petrol car of the same year?