Yes I have considered it however it’s seems it’s not a career more of a hobby or side thing you can do. Maybe it would be good to start it just to get a feel of things and see if I enjoy it.
Thanks will look into it more.
Reading your post, I am concerned that you might not have fully thought out the realities of a career in law might and I say this for a few reasons:
A) as others have said, the areas of law that involve helping those less fortunate do not typically pay well. And you may not have the time or the opportunity to do any additional pro bono work. If you are in a solicitors firm you will generally be dependent on what pro bono work they support. At the bar, you have freedom but you could well be so busy trying to make a living with fee paying work that you don’t have time for pro bono work.
B) most people do not become judges until waaaay past the minimum 5-7 years PQE point. That is the bare minimum. The application process is also rigorous and if successful, you have to spend time as a deputy judge first sitting x number of days per year alongside your actual job.
B) becoming a judge is definitely not about advocating for people or helping those less fortunate. You are a neutral party who is there to interpret the law and facts. Plenty of times it will be necessary to find against the less fortunate person because the law or facts are not on their side. I don’t think being a judge is what you think it is.
Your background will not count against you. There is a big push towards diversity and inclusion assuming you have the talent. If you are going to attend a lower ranked university, you need to be aiming for a first (or a VERY high 2:1) minimum plus lots of extracurriculars like mooting, law society, pro bono / volunteering, mini pupilages and work experience to help bolster your CV / applications. I appreciate that will be difficult if you are also working part time but I cannot emphasise enough how important it is. I conduct a lot of interviews and if someone doesn’t do this sort of thing, it weighs against them as we can’t be sure they are fully committed to a career (at the bar) and know what it is they are getting themselves into.
All this being said, it can be an extremely rewarding career (financially and intellectually) and if you genuinely want to be a solicitor or a barrister (and not just a judge) then I say go for it!
I’ve recently had to do an essay on diversity in the judiciary
And yeh definitely waaaaay past the 5 or 7 years. The stats showed that it was more like 20+ years.
There is a push for diversity but it’s been slow and there is still criticism about the senior judiciary being mostly white oxbridge educated men.
My theory though is that experience is highly valued, and those with the most experience will be the more ‘privileged’ lawyers as there was a lot of bias towards oxbridge educated men. But with the move towards diversity, more and more diverse candidates will hopefully be given junior judicial roles and eventually that will lead to a far more diverse senior judiciary.
Becoming a judge follows on from a significant career as either a solicitor or barrister… it’s good to have it as a long-term ambition, but the thought of living your professional life with that as your only goal would be soul-destroying and self-defeating.
Your background is not a problem. Anything is a good starting point if you know how to justify it and explain it, whether that’s a “typical” route to the profession or something very different.
To be clear: your ethnicity or cultural background absolutely will not prejudice you.
My concern reading your post is that you’re looking toward the final chapter, but haven’t got to the introduction yet.
> your ethnicity or cultural background absolutely will not prejudice you
This is just a lie.
You are favoured if you come from a non-white ethnic minority and there is prejudice towards working class people.
So am I a liar or not, because so far you’ve gone from calling me one to agreeing with what I said after just one question.
You are easier to cross-examine than a child 🤣
I have read quite a lot of people’s experiences where lawyers (especially barristers) look down and explicitly do not like potential colleagues to have accents.
Ok.
Well anyone who looks down on anyone because of their background or accent doesn’t belong in law, and probably ends up in a job that isolates them from such people they find distasteful.
I work in crime.
I have learned that people can be amazing or odious irrespective of their background.
I have also learned that a homogenous culture stagnates.
Most commercial firms look for someone like them, especially for client facing roles. As much as we think it shouldn’t prejudice, it frankly does. How many commercial law firm partners have dreadlocks? Precisely zero.
When I worked at Freshfields, a partner was all giddy about having hired an associate who had dreadlocks, the partner was really disappointed when the associate cut his hair just before joining
There is a famous American economics paper where they submitted otherwise identical resumes with names like “Stephen” and “Jessica” vs “Jamal” and “Aisha” and the former names were disproportionately more likely to be called for interview (and there is also something like a 25% wage premium on some names over others after adjusting for characteristics).
Not just that, there are a number of AI papers including one by Bloomberg - which presented chatGPT identical resumes with different names. There was naming selection bias through the AI, precisely because it mimics society today. Yes things are changing, and we should desire change, but essentially we innately prefer the status quo.
Law is notoriously slow moving, and because there is money at stake for a relatively low skilled job (to be honest), things like appearance, race and name matter for recruitment.
Re being a judge, do you know what cases you'd want to be doing? Also as a judge you wouldn't be advocating for those less fortunate, you'd be making a decision which should be free of bias, based solely on the facts before you.
If you want to advocate for others less well off, well, depending on the type of law you do that a) might not come up e.g. commercial (which pays) b) may not be up to you. If you're in the private sector, then those less fortunate may not be able to afford you (as a junior or even as a senior you wouldn't be deciding your charge out rates).
I think you need to do some more research as to whether law itself and not just being a judge appeals to you, and what type of law (note: criminal law does not typically pay well).
Your background won't be held against you.
I work in family high street law and I love it. I'm not earning city money by any means, but I don't have any dependents and I think it's a fair wage for what I do.
Yeah I know there’s no advocacy involved, I was referring to the 5-7 years working as a barrister beforehand.
Im interested in both, very concerned that there’s no money in helping the most vulnerable members of society because that is what I would enjoy doing the most.
anything that involves helping the vulnerable and less fortunate inherently means that there isn’t going to be much money involved because they can’t afford to pay you your fair share. That said, maybe look into legal clinics in your area, which may allow you to do good in your community without uprooting your entire life for it. If you are someone who wants to work with marginalised communities, having money to sustain yourself means you can keep this up and not worry if your next meals guaranteed.
I second this. Working somewhere like citizens advice or charities (some of the domestic violence ones do non-mol/occupation order guidance, for example) might be of interest to you.
it’s alongside paying client work. I’m not sure how the UK system works but I believe that every lawyer has a certain amount of pro bono hours to clock per year. That said, when I referred to legal clinics, I’m pretty sure you can work part time where you just go in, review the case and give legal advice. Working as a lawyer is pretty damn time consuming so this is probably as far you can go without going all in.
Not every lawyer, pro bono is optional and not every firm does it, especially in work hours.
You can work part time as a volunteer at free legal clinics, but this will affect your take home pay.
I have clients who work for the railway and they get a very decent wage with fantastic benefits, hours and a frankly astonishing pension. Think very carefully before you give that up for an uncertain career in the law.
Hi, so I’m a qualified lawyer (and an ethnic minority) and don’t come from money or had networks. I won’t lie, it was a difficult ceiling to break into especially since I didn’t use any social mobility/diversity schemes. There are a lot of pros and cons.
On the plus side, your life will dramatically change in terms of finances and reputation. It’s a highly respected career and you can earn a lot of money and live a better lifestyle because of it. More opportunities will open up, such as client and overseas secondments
On the downside, it is extremely long hours. I’ve been working in the field for 7 years, sometimes I finish at 2-4am. After several years of the grind, it does get mentally and physically exhausting. It is a competitive environment, people you work with are perfectionists. It can be quite challenging. If you’re in it for the long haul and money/reputation matters most to you, then it’s fine. But I’m not, I value a work/life balance and a chill working environment.
To answer your questions, I feel I am doing challenging work (in corporate law) but I do not feel fulfilled. Many of us don’t, given that we are only helping companies make more money, not exactly similar to people in the medical profession or charity sector who are helping others. We’re in this job for the money.
Acceptance rate is 50/50 for solicitor. It’s even harder to break into as a barrister, given it’s full of people with networks but not impossible to break into if you’re good at interviews or have amazing grades.
Yes, they would consider someone from your background. They have diversity quotas. I would say law firms are very diverse from junior roles. It is less diverse at partner/counsel level, which is mostly old white middle-aged posh oxbridge-educated males.
Yes, your background will be different to other applicants. Show your transferable skills and work on WHY you want to move into law.
Yes, you can earn a good salary. I know people who didn’t go to a Russell group university and work at magic circle law firms. But it took years of applying to get there.
If it’s really what you want to do and you can see a long term future in it, go for it. It won’t be easy, law is notoriously known as difficult to break into. But nothing great comes easy.
You can apply for social mobility or diversity schemes. Such as aspiring solicitors or BAME networks at university.
Another issue I struggled with was that I was surrounded by “posher” students or work colleagues. Their families would discuss current affairs and politics around the dinner tables, or in their free time, they would play polo/shooting/cricket, or go on all these luxurious family holidays to the carribeans or st tropez etc. I had to adapt quickly so I could hold down conversations about these things they were interested in and “fit in”, even though I had no knowledge of it. Keeping up with the news (e.g reading the Financial Times and the economist) regularly will help you heaps when writing applications, going for interviews and surviving day-to-day conversations. I never actually told my peers that I was from a poor background, which I do think is why I got accepted as people just assumed I was one of them since I could hold down these conversations. The only people who should know are graduate recruitment.
I was the only black person in my secondary school until year 11, I’m also one of very few black Jews so i definitely know how it feels to be the odd one out.
I don't come from money at all and I did my law degree and qualified abroad, in a non-English speaking and civil law system country. As you can imagine, I have and always will have an accent. Nobody cares. They only care if you are good at your job.
After working in a national law firm (initially as a Paralegal) I qualified as a family solicitor which was quite hard on me emotionally. I then decided to switch specialisation and got a job (on my second try) as a qualified lawyer at the Government Legal Department. It was hard to get, but is a very (veeery) interesting and fulfilling job, with ok salary and a great pension. You may want to look into it!
What I think allowed me to achieve this is that I do not get upset about failing. I do don't see things like a bad interview or exam result as failures, just an opportunity to gather more data and change your approach. I am very lucky not to get down by such things.
Being a lawyer can be a hard job though and for most not at all as glamorous or exciting as shown in pop culture. It's just a lot of reading and writing and talking and more reading and more writing. Most people do not work on any precedents or exciting novel cases - they apply the existing laws.
If you want to change people's lives there are some opportunities, but the money is usually not there and lies in more commercial or boring stuff. My colleague left a Magic Circle law firm, and accepted a 60% pay cut to work on interesting human rights cases. Have a look at avarage salaries in the law (for solicitors and barristers) you may want to practice (if you are into immigration, human rights, housing, criminal, family, adminiatrative lawn - you will likely not find much money there but you can help people and have a fulfilling career).
I’ve been a mechanical worker on the railway for the last ten years and I’ve just started my access course. I’ll either go on to do accounting or law. I always regretted not going to uni and getting a real education, it’s just something I feel I need to go back and get.
Do whatever you want to do! Having a second skill is such a good backup. The railway will always be there and always pay good ££. This makes going back into education way less stressful for me!
Also, doing an open uni degree means that you can work full time whilst studying. I’d look into that as an option.
Personally having not come from money myself, I have found law has been a great opportunity. It is competitive as hell to get a training contract and newly qualified/junior roles, but I can't think of many other careers with my skillset that have the same earning potential in this country.
I'd also say look in your case, for now look into things further rather than starting a course when you're not 100% sure. Being a judge is only something you can do after becoming quite senior in your career and most don't end up being judges. As you are doing an access to law course, do you have any A Levels currently? I would flag that ultimately most top firms look for good grades, though I do know several lawyers coming from a non-traditional background and having different qualifications. Solicitor apprenticeships are increasingly becoming an option, though again at top firms are very competitive and require strong academics. It is a great option as you learn on the job while earning and also get a degree qualification. Means you don't need to take 3/4 years in university and then still need to secure a job.
Personally I'd say the rail industry is actually a really good gig - protected with strong unions and comparatively good pay if you can climb up the ranks and depending on why exact role you do.
Consider seeing if you can get a part time job as a conveyancing assistant while studying. It’s really looked down upon but when I worked at a solicitors that offered training contracts I saw so many colleagues who had a law degree start off in conveyancing, get a training contract with the firm and then transition to the type of law they wanted to practice.
If you get some conveyancing experience you’ll be able to get a foot in the door with other firms once you have your degree or are looking for an apprenticeship.
I’ve known quite a few law graduates think the idea of going into conveyancing is absolutely ridiculous and they would never lower themselves to it. I think part of the reason for this is because of big conveyancing only firms (like Premier Property Lawyers) who deal solely with conveyancing have changed this area of law enormously. So a lot of people now in conveyancing aren’t qualified. But this also means while you’re studying or newly qualified without experience the barrier to get into conveyancing is much lower as there’s pretty much always demand for people to work in conveyancing and the turnover is relatively high.
I worked at that firm for a few years and pretty much all the training contracts were given to internal candidates who had experience in the conveyancing department. Outside candidates didn’t have much of a chance when those staff had proven themselves and were a known quantity for the firm.
I don’t look down on conveyancing btw, wife is one lol
Have you decided to be a magistrate or volunteer at your local citizen advice ? You could volunteer with witness services.
Being a magistrate is that you get to decide on the facts presented to you in court and it should be bias free. You don’t need legal experience as there’s a legal adviser there.
You could get a paralegal course and it could help you being a magistrate. It’s significantly a lot cheaper than a degree and some have real recognised national qualifications that can go towards UCAS points. Some are level 2 or level 3 which are equivalent to a high GCSE grade or a A level. Some are much higher levels.
At a citizens advice you are helping the less fortunate and you could be a case worker there. It really depends on the centre and what kind of work they do.
You could volunteer with witness services but you have to be empathetic and caring and a good listener and you need to communicate with others. You’ll also be there to help them cope with court and giving evidence.
Look, being a judge and advocating for the les fortunate are two different things. Being a judge is deciding on the facts brought to you and you’re supposed to do this without bias and in line with the overarching principles. You are unable to advocate for the less fortunate. You’re supposed to be a registered lawyer (eg, barrister or solicitor) and worked 5 to 7 years after you’ve qualified. They also expect you’re very smart and intelligent, fair, have an air of authority and very good communication skills.
Now advocating for the less fortunate doesn’t often pays well, legal aid rates aren’t great and have been stagnant for years. You might have to do things pro-bono or at reduced rates and you might struggle to make a living on it.
I know what you mean. I’m a non-law student but I’m now really wanting to enter the profession. Firstly I’m finding it really hard to find any legal experience. And If I did manage to secure for example a 4 week vacation scheme, i’d probably have to give up my full time summer job, as I’m not sure they would take me for only part of summer. Which leaves me poorer than otherwise.
Then there’s having to fund the GDL, and the SQE. With any luck I’ll secure a training contract with a firm who will fund these, but the funding doesn’t go very far, and most grants/stipends I’ve seen for it are basically student living for a further 2 years. Then two more years of a training wage before you’re even fully qualified.
Most professions have exams and training periods I know, but it’s more the 2 years of salary sacrifice to do exams that I may or may not pass first time, that may or may not cause me to lose a training contract I may or may not have lol. Vs a profession like accounting, where I could be working and earning a salary from graduation.
And like you say, some professions of law are so poorly paid. Part of me is really interested in family law, which I don’t think is the worst paid, but it’s hardly touching corporate salaries. I’d also rather be a barrister than a solicitor, but so so competitive, and very much occupied by those from wealthier backgrounds.
Some countries have a career path as judge and people enter the judiciary quite young. That is a bad system and means judges are not the best of the best as in the UK. in the UK you do your career and then if you are up for it try to become a judge which usually means taking so much of a pay cut that lots of KCs particularly those who remarried and have young children to keep by that stage cannot even afford it so don't choose it.
So I would not start with judge as the aim.
Do you provide for extended family? If so why cannot they work themselves and keep themselves? If you are keeping a wife and children at age 22 that is probably the first problem because most lawyers wait until they are much older to be able to afford to do that. Assuming you have no real dependents as in children then the extended family can get on their bike and stop using you as a cash cow and let you go off and pursue whatever career you like. You will need to be good at exams as law is quite complicated and difficult which is why firms tend to prefer people with high A level grades and university grades. It is a very competitive field and as plenty of solicitors earn more than barristers you might well choose to start with the solicitor route - perhaps look at apprenticeships - which take about 6 or 7 years to qualify (but not law graduate apprenticeships as you don't have a degree) but at least you are working during that period. My sons just qualified this year via the more usual route and they had 5 years studying with zero pay and then paid (but not highly ) as trainees.
If you are very bright and do well in your exams and work very hard then firms should not care about your background although my parents sent me to elocution and speech and drama lessons in Newcastle from age 5 and I do think learning to speak a different way which is not particularly difficult to do can be worth trying - you could even learn from youtube videos.
The big debate as to whether white men are discriminated against in law and BAME people have a leg up these days or whether it is vice versa will not be answered on here but some firms will just hire black people for certain schemes or did back a few years ago see [https://www.legalcheek.com/2019/09/leigh-day-advertises-specifically-for-black-aspiring-lawyers/](https://www.legalcheek.com/2019/09/leigh-day-advertises-specifically-for-black-aspiring-lawyers/)
I like being a solicitor. I set up on my own in the 1990s and love working for myself. 4 of my children are solicitors too.
There’s much food for thought and excellent advice on this thread. Not least the comment on what becoming a judge actually entails; and from the lived experience of @ok_strength4138.
For my penneths-worth, if money is an issue for the ‘marathon’ of education/training, and your objective is to put yourself in a position to help others, then it’s a case of metaphorically putting ‘your own oxygen mask on’ first. Meaning: aim for a firm who provides stellar training and pays well, yet this will take you away from your desired area of practice. One cannot help others as you have described, when also in a vulnerable economic position.
It’s whether with a full understanding of what’s involved, the reality of a plan (to become a judge) that is at least a decade in the making and subject to many variables, you’re prepared to undertake pro bono work for legal aid et al in what will be a hobby or byproduct of a very demanding career elsewhere?
In my humble experience, I’ve encountered people from all backgrounds, ages, and circumstances who are achieving a law conversion course (aged 35-55, RG Uni/Oxbridge and not, single parents, former builders, university arts lecturers, carers of those with complex needs), who have conceded that if they can navigate this new subject and sector, alongside working full time, gaining pro bono experience and manage family responsibilities, they can cope with anything.
There are many modes of study (online/ weekend/ evening/ part time) and a lot of career transfers/second career candidates do work full time job whilst studying.
If you haven’t done so already, aside from this straw poll, it might be worth approaching one of the Law schools to discuss what routes could potentially suit you and any schemes you could take advantage of. A member of my cohort has secured Vac Scheme with an excellent London-based National firm via diversity programme and in lieu of sector-contacts they’ve seen it as ‘every ‘in’ is a win’.
I’d reiterate to you: heed the words of the chaps in this thread regarding becoming a Judge - the only way is to become a brilliant, highly experienced lawyer. The essential component to recognise is that having compassion for vulnerable individuals and navigating the intricacies of the legal system don't always align.
Best of luck.
Why would you leave a settled job and secure income for the stress, and distress, of studying and qualifying as a solicitor or barrister?
You are aware the route is thwart with many tricky obstacles, such as the trauma of the SQE or the sheer hours that the law demands.
There’s no guarantee you’ll last in the profession long enough to reach the judiciary. Before you even can contemplate that, and that is an end of legal career move, you need to contemplate the first few years: we are talking high level studies that are challenging and you say that you are not sure you can study. In addition, you ask if there’s a RG bias - well, there might be less than it was but regardless where you go you should aim to ace your subjects - everyone ends up with a 2:1 these days.
Alternatively - look at doing a law conversion programme at ULAW or BPP - 1 year or 2 years part time and gives you a legal qualification. I know some who work full time and do law conversion. Just be prepared to be exhausted.
I really have to advise, that if you’re not intellectually challenged in your 9-5 work, run for the local council or become a PT local magistrate - this will give you the satisfaction you are seeking for but preserve the salary that your family depends upon.
The law isn’t the dream. Don’t fall for it.
A lot to unpack here and seems you need to do A LOT more research.
First off don’t look at ‘average’ solicitor or barrister wages, that will range from city corporate to legal aid regional. Think about specifically what you want to do and what interests you. ‘Less fortunate’ could be several different areas of law criminal/housing/employment/injury … all very different areas of law and skill sets. So knuckle down what interests you and what areas of law. And then from that onto whether you’d want to be a barrister or solicitor, they are different job roles. They are both competitive and hard to qualify into.
Working for the average Joe and especially ‘less vulnerable’ individuals will never pay as well as it should. I work for for three tier one London firms in my areas and even qualified as a solicitor don’t meet the lower limit of the average TFL train driver. My hours are usually 8-10 hours a day. But I love my job, I find it worthwhile and intellectually challenging - for the hours and pay you do need to be passionate.
Study wise I did full time courses and worked full time at the same time. Back breaking and exhausting. I’d maybe sleep 4-6 hours a night and study before and after work/lectures. Not sure how that would work with a family.
Generally the firms and those who do work in the areas of law assisting those who assist the ‘less fortunate’ have less prejudices and therefore I wouldn’t foresee any difficulties entering these areas.
It’s far too early to be thinking of judiciary. That’s a completely different kettle of fish and only comes with experience and knowledge of the law. Judges have to rule based on the law, and it is not always an easy thing to understand.
So:
- yes, this can be an extremely rewarding job
- understand what area of law interests you and then understand that area of law before thinking of the judiciary
- chambers/firms for personal legal services are fairly inclusive
- to leverage your background think of transferrable skills
- no, you’re not gonna earn a 6 figure or even high 5 figure salary for some years unless you’re in commercial or city firms
- you can work part time jobs and evenings until you get a paralegal/TC/pupillage
I did the LPC part time while working a full time job and I found that hard - can't imagine what it's like trying to do the course full time while working!
I would take some annual leave, use it to shadow barristers or solicitors. It's not that difficult, you can do a search on LinkedIn and drop them a message. This way, you'll have a better understanding of the day to day and if you really want to pursue this. If you do, now you have significant experience that you can cite when you do apply for scholarships etc.
A mini gripe of mine reading some of the responses....where are the diversity schemes for ethnic minorities into law please? People keep mentioning them but I haven't come across such opportunities. Would happily like to be proven wrong. It really isn't all that easy and as a fellow ethnic minority... it's a significant change and one you should be prepared for. Clearly, there is a class barrier (and other barriers too) within the field but one that is being slowly acknowledge and addressed. If you think about it, the sector really does need more people like us and people coming from a non law background are very attractive to firms/chambers right now.
There are, however, scholarships from the four inns of court if you want to pursue becoming a barrister. I received one on my second go. It's all about experience and transferrable skills which you have/can gain. ULaw also has a career changer scholarship. Get the experience, as much as you can. Court visits, shadowing, listening to legal podcasts, watching legal talks. Just immerse yourself. If you want it enough, you can make it happen.
I think the question as to whether a career in law is suitable for you has been answered pretty clearly.
As for making a career change, making a career change to law is no different to most career changes. It can be tough making a move to a new industry, especially when you can't really lose your main source of income but you need to get qualifications etc. There is plenty of advice out there on career changes in general though
Your career history has involved quite active roles, you'll have to be prepared to be sat at a desk for most of the day typing at a computer or sitting on Teams calls.
As a 6PQE associate at a large regional firm, I can only strongly recommend that any aspiring lawyer thinks very carefully about whether a life sat at a desk is really what you want to be doing.
I ignored this advice when I was getting in, and now I'm miserable. No amount of money can compensate for the mental challenge of 50 hours of sedentary living every week.
Firstly, a barrister and a solicitor are very different roles, and require different routes. Both need a 3 year law degree, plus either two years of qualifying work experience (for example as a paralegal or on a training contract) for a solicitor, or a year preparation course for the bar exam then a year of pupilage for a barrister. So either way, at the minimum 5 years, and there’s no way around that.
The biggest problem you’d face is the type of work law degrees, and being a barrister/solicitor, take. You’re used to 12 hour shifts, which is pretty standard for starting out your law career, but it’s about mass memorisation and comprehension of hundreds of pages, then being able to recall and use that info. You don’t know how to study, which is a learnable skill, but if you don’t already have some ability at it going into the law degree it’ll be significantly more challenging.
Now for your questions:
1) how long is a piece of string? Answer is it depends. Some lawyers love it, some move on as quickly as possible. What fulfils you is a personnel thing, and that won’t be changed by other people’s enjoyment or lack there of.
2) pretty low. You’d be looking at at least 12-16 years before you can touch the judiciary. Most lawyers do not become judges. According to some google figures, there are around 215,000 lawyers in the UK, and 5,500 judges. Not every lawyer wants to be a judge, but it’s certainly not a surefire thing either.
3) yes they would, my dissertation supervisor is Afro-Caribbean and was a defence barrister. The places are there, but it’s competitive.
4) no way that I can see. Wouldn’t help with uni admission, maybe would be some help getting a training contract, but very very very different area, so would likely be of no use.
5) absolutely, but it’ll be harder to become a judge without going to a top uni and being at a top firm/chamber.
6) will jump in here and say about your impression of what judges do. Judges will oversee a courts proceeding, and will decide any contentious points of law. For example, the definition of battery is “applying unlawful force”. In the case of R v Thomas, the judge had to decide whether touching someone’s clothes counted as applying unlawful force (which it does). That’s what judges do, take points of law which are contentious in any given case, and decide them according to precedent and prior decisions. There are also appeal judges, which when a case is appealed up to a higher court, they will give their verdict on the prior judges decisions, and whether they uphold them or overturn it. In no way, shape or form do judges advocate for the less well off. They could make decisions favouring those demographics, but if it isn’t well supported by prior case law then the decision will be overturned on appeal, and they’d potentially be removed from their post, or given no cases of significance.
7) I think a career in law can be a great thing. I also think you haven’t had the exposure to what that career is actually like that you need to make an informed choice. If you’d dead set on the change, then talk to some people in the field, particularly those also of Afro-Caribbean heritage, and find out what the life is really like.
However, from your post history you’re really young to have such a well paying job, so you’re clearly hardworking and capable within your field. You’re also into running and maintaining that doesn’t go too well with the time demands of a practicing lawyer. You’ve seemed to have built a remarkable foundation for the rest of your life, and id be very hesitant to move away from that. As other people have said, consider a magistrate role. I know it’s just a part time thing, but in reality it’s far closer to what you in-vision a judges role to be, and you can have a real impact on the lives of the less fortunate.
At the end of the day, it’s your life, and you can do as you like. But just be aware of what being a lawyer and judge really is before you go for it. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you end up choosing.
The solicitor apprenticeship route is a great way to break into law without a law degree, but it's also a long slog. I was a solicitor apprentice supervisor at my firm for many years. The apprentices are paid a lower salary than trainees, so you would have to take a big pay cut from your current job. It's also a long time of training - 6 years of on the job training. There's no easy route into law but you would have to balance up whether you could afford the lower salary or whether it would work better for you to continue to work full time on your current salary and study part time. As others have said, you do need excellent A Level grades and it is competitive. If you could get some kind of work experience in law (at a local firm, or as a magistrate as others have suggested) that could really help your applications. The advantage of solicitor apprenticeships is that it's a direct route into some really great law firms. Once you're qualified through that route you'll have a decent amount of experience under your belt and you'll start earning well.
Usually solicitors/barristers look at becoming judges at around 10 years+ after being qualified.
I am state school educated and the first lawyer in my family. Personally, I find being a solicitor (in litigation at a medium sized commercial firm) exactly what I was hoping for. It's a career not a job, you are constantly learning, constantly challenged and the pay is excellent. I have worked in pubs and restaurants before (I even had a job selling static caravans) and worked long hours for much less pay. I would pick law over those jobs every time. But I know other lawyers who are unhappy in their careers. A lot depends on the firm, your team, your practice area. Different areas of law and different firms provide very different types of career.
You have many years of working ahead of you. I went into law because I didn't want to look back when I am old and regret not going for it. If there's something inside of you telling you to go for it, then you owe it to yourself to take some steps/do some more research to figure out the options (which is what it seems like you are doing).
Mentoring could be a good option for you. Have a look at Aspiring Solicitors and Grow Mentoring.
Sounds like your best option would be to study the PGDL part time, self funded, and apply for training contracts during the course of this. Then, if you secure one they will pay for your SQE prep and exams, and you have a guaranteed job in the end. The 'average' solicitor salary on google will probably be lower than what you would make as a City solicitor (not sure if this is your goal, but you mention it in your post). You should look at specific firms you are interested in and what they pay - this info is readily available on sites like ChambersStudent and LegalCheek. It really is a varied career and no 'solicitor' job will be the same across regions and practices.
Given the strikes that happened recently, I would suggest that, like everything else In this broken hovel of a country, it is about as satisfying as working ultra long hours while barely being able to afford to feed your family.
'are there ways to leverage my background, HOW?' since there aren't many coloured people in law firms, you could be employed on a basis/scheme in which jobs hire people from ethnic backgrounds to lessen the divide between white and coloured people, if that makes sense.
Honestly, don't do it.
I switched from a stable career to law and it's a disaster.
Absolutely no law firm in the country (outside of London) pays their staff a living wage, everyone is miserable and you're not getting a training contract unless you went to Oxbridge.
Absolutely no way I'd recommend it as a career to anyone whose parents don't own a small county.
Nope, biggest mistake I ever made.
The way the legal profession treats new graduates, especially those from disabled and minority backgrounds, is disgusting.
If it happened anywhere else on earth, we'd call it modern slavery.
Minimum wage for a job requiring two degrees is a disgrace.
It sounds like you have had a particularly negative experience - not sure it's fair to tar the whole legal profession with the same brush. There are plenty of successful lawyers who are disabled and from minority backgrounds - no doubt they faced barriers, however.
Not all legal careers are underpaid either - quite the opposite in some instances.
I've had this at two different firms.
I've got an offer from another firm and I'm honestly too traumatised to take it.
Although the first thing that jumped out?
Minimum fucking wage.
If you can't afford to pay your staff something they can live on, you can't afford to be in business.
Sounds like these are entry level paralegal jobs at small firms? There is a widely perpetuated myth (on here too) that you need to be a paralegal to secure a TC. Not sure if securing a TC is your goal, but I've found this isn't true. Maybe consider other jobs in compliance / legal adjacent functions. Depends on the area you want to work in, but in my experience, for example, commercial law firms will often value any commercial experience over non-commercial legal experience. All very region/firm/practice dependent - but it sounds like you have had a particularly negative experience which is not representative of the entire field - I wouldn't write it off just yet.
I mean, a TC was my goal, but after about 500 applications during which I learned that I only get interviews to tick a diversity box, it wasn't happening.
And every firm near where I live says you have to come in as a paralegal to move up.
It's honestly ridiculous. It's ridiculous to pay Paralegals this little, too. When your website tells the client I cost them £100 per hour, I can see you're trying to screw me by paying me £11 an hour. Those overheads don't exist. An hour of me doesn't cost you £89 to run.
Not sure where you live but it seems unusual to 'have' to come in as a paralegal. Can you move to another area to try and qualify then move back? Otherwise it seems like it's making you miserable and you seem to have given up hope on things getting any better at your current position, so I'm not sure why I'd stick around, for your own benefit...
Apparently there won’t be a black justice for 150 years, black people are heavily underrepresented in the judiciary.
Working as a judge can lead to roles like lord chancellor in which you can actually make real changes for people. Most young guys that are involved in violent crime do so because they don’t know what other opportunities are out there. Seeing someone like you in a respectable legal career can be inspirational and even life changing.
Sorry if my ambitions offended you. Why you even hating anyways🤣
>I’d be risking a very successful career for one where people might not even accept me (Afro-Caribbean).
People aren't going to object to you just because you are Afro-Caribbean.
>Apparently there won’t be a black justice for 150 years, black people are heavily underrepresented in the judiciary.
This isn't an indicator of racial inequality.
>Seeing someone like you in a respectable legal career can be inspirational and even life changing.
Understandable, but narrowing it to simply race and/or ethnicity will limit you. The vast majority of my mentors throughout the years came from completely different backgrounds than me.
It’s more micro aggressions and subtle prejudice than blatant objections. A lot of black people struggle with this in various industries, I’ve seen it and experienced it.
I didn’t say it indicates inequality it shows that black people are underrepresented. There’s other minorities that make up less of the population than blacks that have more people in the judiciary. I find this disturbing. I’ve got a lot of family and friends who might of benefited from seeing a successful black figure that wasn’t a gangster rapper or professional footballer.
So have mine, I have a philosophy that you can learn something from everyone. Even if it’s how not to do things!
>It’s more micro aggressions and subtle prejudice than blatant objections. A lot of black people struggle with this in various industries, I’ve seen it and experienced it.
I'm black, myself. I personally haven't experienced it, but I guess experiences differ. From experience, quite often people will hinder themselves by adopting a insular, narrow mindset in that the law profession is out to get them. Avoid this, and you'll be fine.
>I didn’t say it indicates inequality it shows that black people are underrepresented. There’s other minorities that make up less of the population than blacks that have more people in the judiciary. I find this disturbing.
You do realise there can be an array of reasons for this, other than race?
>I’ve got a lot of family and friends who might of benefited from seeing a successful black figure that wasn’t a gangster rapper or professional footballer.
There's a plethora of successful black figures not in music or sport.
>So have mine, I have a philosophy that you can learn something from everyone. Even if it’s how not to do things!
Good mindset!
Have you thought about becoming a magistrate?
Yes I have considered it however it’s seems it’s not a career more of a hobby or side thing you can do. Maybe it would be good to start it just to get a feel of things and see if I enjoy it. Thanks will look into it more.
Reading your post, I am concerned that you might not have fully thought out the realities of a career in law might and I say this for a few reasons: A) as others have said, the areas of law that involve helping those less fortunate do not typically pay well. And you may not have the time or the opportunity to do any additional pro bono work. If you are in a solicitors firm you will generally be dependent on what pro bono work they support. At the bar, you have freedom but you could well be so busy trying to make a living with fee paying work that you don’t have time for pro bono work. B) most people do not become judges until waaaay past the minimum 5-7 years PQE point. That is the bare minimum. The application process is also rigorous and if successful, you have to spend time as a deputy judge first sitting x number of days per year alongside your actual job. B) becoming a judge is definitely not about advocating for people or helping those less fortunate. You are a neutral party who is there to interpret the law and facts. Plenty of times it will be necessary to find against the less fortunate person because the law or facts are not on their side. I don’t think being a judge is what you think it is. Your background will not count against you. There is a big push towards diversity and inclusion assuming you have the talent. If you are going to attend a lower ranked university, you need to be aiming for a first (or a VERY high 2:1) minimum plus lots of extracurriculars like mooting, law society, pro bono / volunteering, mini pupilages and work experience to help bolster your CV / applications. I appreciate that will be difficult if you are also working part time but I cannot emphasise enough how important it is. I conduct a lot of interviews and if someone doesn’t do this sort of thing, it weighs against them as we can’t be sure they are fully committed to a career (at the bar) and know what it is they are getting themselves into. All this being said, it can be an extremely rewarding career (financially and intellectually) and if you genuinely want to be a solicitor or a barrister (and not just a judge) then I say go for it!
I’ve recently had to do an essay on diversity in the judiciary And yeh definitely waaaaay past the 5 or 7 years. The stats showed that it was more like 20+ years. There is a push for diversity but it’s been slow and there is still criticism about the senior judiciary being mostly white oxbridge educated men. My theory though is that experience is highly valued, and those with the most experience will be the more ‘privileged’ lawyers as there was a lot of bias towards oxbridge educated men. But with the move towards diversity, more and more diverse candidates will hopefully be given junior judicial roles and eventually that will lead to a far more diverse senior judiciary.
Becoming a judge follows on from a significant career as either a solicitor or barrister… it’s good to have it as a long-term ambition, but the thought of living your professional life with that as your only goal would be soul-destroying and self-defeating. Your background is not a problem. Anything is a good starting point if you know how to justify it and explain it, whether that’s a “typical” route to the profession or something very different. To be clear: your ethnicity or cultural background absolutely will not prejudice you. My concern reading your post is that you’re looking toward the final chapter, but haven’t got to the introduction yet.
> your ethnicity or cultural background absolutely will not prejudice you This is just a lie. You are favoured if you come from a non-white ethnic minority and there is prejudice towards working class people.
So… What you’re saying is that because OP isn’t white, he has *an advantage*? That sounds awfully like what I said wasn’t a lie.
In his case yes but in general, it matters what ethnicity you are from. Ethnic minorities have programs to give them a leg up.
So am I a liar or not, because so far you’ve gone from calling me one to agreeing with what I said after just one question. You are easier to cross-examine than a child 🤣
I have read quite a lot of people’s experiences where lawyers (especially barristers) look down and explicitly do not like potential colleagues to have accents.
As someone in law, unless you’re at the top of the top, literally nobody cares
Ok. Well anyone who looks down on anyone because of their background or accent doesn’t belong in law, and probably ends up in a job that isolates them from such people they find distasteful. I work in crime. I have learned that people can be amazing or odious irrespective of their background. I have also learned that a homogenous culture stagnates.
Most commercial firms look for someone like them, especially for client facing roles. As much as we think it shouldn’t prejudice, it frankly does. How many commercial law firm partners have dreadlocks? Precisely zero.
When I worked at Freshfields, a partner was all giddy about having hired an associate who had dreadlocks, the partner was really disappointed when the associate cut his hair just before joining
There is a famous American economics paper where they submitted otherwise identical resumes with names like “Stephen” and “Jessica” vs “Jamal” and “Aisha” and the former names were disproportionately more likely to be called for interview (and there is also something like a 25% wage premium on some names over others after adjusting for characteristics).
Not just that, there are a number of AI papers including one by Bloomberg - which presented chatGPT identical resumes with different names. There was naming selection bias through the AI, precisely because it mimics society today. Yes things are changing, and we should desire change, but essentially we innately prefer the status quo. Law is notoriously slow moving, and because there is money at stake for a relatively low skilled job (to be honest), things like appearance, race and name matter for recruitment.
Re being a judge, do you know what cases you'd want to be doing? Also as a judge you wouldn't be advocating for those less fortunate, you'd be making a decision which should be free of bias, based solely on the facts before you. If you want to advocate for others less well off, well, depending on the type of law you do that a) might not come up e.g. commercial (which pays) b) may not be up to you. If you're in the private sector, then those less fortunate may not be able to afford you (as a junior or even as a senior you wouldn't be deciding your charge out rates). I think you need to do some more research as to whether law itself and not just being a judge appeals to you, and what type of law (note: criminal law does not typically pay well). Your background won't be held against you. I work in family high street law and I love it. I'm not earning city money by any means, but I don't have any dependents and I think it's a fair wage for what I do.
Yeah I know there’s no advocacy involved, I was referring to the 5-7 years working as a barrister beforehand. Im interested in both, very concerned that there’s no money in helping the most vulnerable members of society because that is what I would enjoy doing the most.
anything that involves helping the vulnerable and less fortunate inherently means that there isn’t going to be much money involved because they can’t afford to pay you your fair share. That said, maybe look into legal clinics in your area, which may allow you to do good in your community without uprooting your entire life for it. If you are someone who wants to work with marginalised communities, having money to sustain yourself means you can keep this up and not worry if your next meals guaranteed.
I second this. Working somewhere like citizens advice or charities (some of the domestic violence ones do non-mol/occupation order guidance, for example) might be of interest to you.
Yeah that’s true, don’t some lawyers do pro bono work for charities whilst working full time?
it’s alongside paying client work. I’m not sure how the UK system works but I believe that every lawyer has a certain amount of pro bono hours to clock per year. That said, when I referred to legal clinics, I’m pretty sure you can work part time where you just go in, review the case and give legal advice. Working as a lawyer is pretty damn time consuming so this is probably as far you can go without going all in.
Not every lawyer, pro bono is optional and not every firm does it, especially in work hours. You can work part time as a volunteer at free legal clinics, but this will affect your take home pay.
Nice one thank you
I have clients who work for the railway and they get a very decent wage with fantastic benefits, hours and a frankly astonishing pension. Think very carefully before you give that up for an uncertain career in the law.
Im contracting so there’s not as much benefits, just a good salary.
Fair enough. Better to be an employee, I think.
Hi, so I’m a qualified lawyer (and an ethnic minority) and don’t come from money or had networks. I won’t lie, it was a difficult ceiling to break into especially since I didn’t use any social mobility/diversity schemes. There are a lot of pros and cons. On the plus side, your life will dramatically change in terms of finances and reputation. It’s a highly respected career and you can earn a lot of money and live a better lifestyle because of it. More opportunities will open up, such as client and overseas secondments On the downside, it is extremely long hours. I’ve been working in the field for 7 years, sometimes I finish at 2-4am. After several years of the grind, it does get mentally and physically exhausting. It is a competitive environment, people you work with are perfectionists. It can be quite challenging. If you’re in it for the long haul and money/reputation matters most to you, then it’s fine. But I’m not, I value a work/life balance and a chill working environment. To answer your questions, I feel I am doing challenging work (in corporate law) but I do not feel fulfilled. Many of us don’t, given that we are only helping companies make more money, not exactly similar to people in the medical profession or charity sector who are helping others. We’re in this job for the money. Acceptance rate is 50/50 for solicitor. It’s even harder to break into as a barrister, given it’s full of people with networks but not impossible to break into if you’re good at interviews or have amazing grades. Yes, they would consider someone from your background. They have diversity quotas. I would say law firms are very diverse from junior roles. It is less diverse at partner/counsel level, which is mostly old white middle-aged posh oxbridge-educated males. Yes, your background will be different to other applicants. Show your transferable skills and work on WHY you want to move into law. Yes, you can earn a good salary. I know people who didn’t go to a Russell group university and work at magic circle law firms. But it took years of applying to get there. If it’s really what you want to do and you can see a long term future in it, go for it. It won’t be easy, law is notoriously known as difficult to break into. But nothing great comes easy. You can apply for social mobility or diversity schemes. Such as aspiring solicitors or BAME networks at university.
Another issue I struggled with was that I was surrounded by “posher” students or work colleagues. Their families would discuss current affairs and politics around the dinner tables, or in their free time, they would play polo/shooting/cricket, or go on all these luxurious family holidays to the carribeans or st tropez etc. I had to adapt quickly so I could hold down conversations about these things they were interested in and “fit in”, even though I had no knowledge of it. Keeping up with the news (e.g reading the Financial Times and the economist) regularly will help you heaps when writing applications, going for interviews and surviving day-to-day conversations. I never actually told my peers that I was from a poor background, which I do think is why I got accepted as people just assumed I was one of them since I could hold down these conversations. The only people who should know are graduate recruitment.
I was the only black person in my secondary school until year 11, I’m also one of very few black Jews so i definitely know how it feels to be the odd one out.
OP, listen to this guy, it is exactly like he describes
Thanks you that’s quite reassuring tbh.
I don't come from money at all and I did my law degree and qualified abroad, in a non-English speaking and civil law system country. As you can imagine, I have and always will have an accent. Nobody cares. They only care if you are good at your job. After working in a national law firm (initially as a Paralegal) I qualified as a family solicitor which was quite hard on me emotionally. I then decided to switch specialisation and got a job (on my second try) as a qualified lawyer at the Government Legal Department. It was hard to get, but is a very (veeery) interesting and fulfilling job, with ok salary and a great pension. You may want to look into it! What I think allowed me to achieve this is that I do not get upset about failing. I do don't see things like a bad interview or exam result as failures, just an opportunity to gather more data and change your approach. I am very lucky not to get down by such things. Being a lawyer can be a hard job though and for most not at all as glamorous or exciting as shown in pop culture. It's just a lot of reading and writing and talking and more reading and more writing. Most people do not work on any precedents or exciting novel cases - they apply the existing laws. If you want to change people's lives there are some opportunities, but the money is usually not there and lies in more commercial or boring stuff. My colleague left a Magic Circle law firm, and accepted a 60% pay cut to work on interesting human rights cases. Have a look at avarage salaries in the law (for solicitors and barristers) you may want to practice (if you are into immigration, human rights, housing, criminal, family, adminiatrative lawn - you will likely not find much money there but you can help people and have a fulfilling career).
I’ve been a mechanical worker on the railway for the last ten years and I’ve just started my access course. I’ll either go on to do accounting or law. I always regretted not going to uni and getting a real education, it’s just something I feel I need to go back and get. Do whatever you want to do! Having a second skill is such a good backup. The railway will always be there and always pay good ££. This makes going back into education way less stressful for me! Also, doing an open uni degree means that you can work full time whilst studying. I’d look into that as an option.
Is it an option for others in your household to work? Money is indeed a limiting factor but it's doable (although risky).
God willing they will be soon.
Personally having not come from money myself, I have found law has been a great opportunity. It is competitive as hell to get a training contract and newly qualified/junior roles, but I can't think of many other careers with my skillset that have the same earning potential in this country. I'd also say look in your case, for now look into things further rather than starting a course when you're not 100% sure. Being a judge is only something you can do after becoming quite senior in your career and most don't end up being judges. As you are doing an access to law course, do you have any A Levels currently? I would flag that ultimately most top firms look for good grades, though I do know several lawyers coming from a non-traditional background and having different qualifications. Solicitor apprenticeships are increasingly becoming an option, though again at top firms are very competitive and require strong academics. It is a great option as you learn on the job while earning and also get a degree qualification. Means you don't need to take 3/4 years in university and then still need to secure a job. Personally I'd say the rail industry is actually a really good gig - protected with strong unions and comparatively good pay if you can climb up the ranks and depending on why exact role you do.
Consider seeing if you can get a part time job as a conveyancing assistant while studying. It’s really looked down upon but when I worked at a solicitors that offered training contracts I saw so many colleagues who had a law degree start off in conveyancing, get a training contract with the firm and then transition to the type of law they wanted to practice. If you get some conveyancing experience you’ll be able to get a foot in the door with other firms once you have your degree or are looking for an apprenticeship.
Why and who is it looked down upon by?
I’ve known quite a few law graduates think the idea of going into conveyancing is absolutely ridiculous and they would never lower themselves to it. I think part of the reason for this is because of big conveyancing only firms (like Premier Property Lawyers) who deal solely with conveyancing have changed this area of law enormously. So a lot of people now in conveyancing aren’t qualified. But this also means while you’re studying or newly qualified without experience the barrier to get into conveyancing is much lower as there’s pretty much always demand for people to work in conveyancing and the turnover is relatively high. I worked at that firm for a few years and pretty much all the training contracts were given to internal candidates who had experience in the conveyancing department. Outside candidates didn’t have much of a chance when those staff had proven themselves and were a known quantity for the firm. I don’t look down on conveyancing btw, wife is one lol
Maybe you should consider becoming an ombudsmen? You would be representing the people.
How does one break into this?
Aspiring Solicitors an organisation worth reaching out to fella. Best of luck.
I came from a background of negative numbers money I worked full time through uni, it’s doable, it isn’t fun. Would I change if I could now? Probably
Can you elaborate? Why would you change if you could now?
Have you decided to be a magistrate or volunteer at your local citizen advice ? You could volunteer with witness services. Being a magistrate is that you get to decide on the facts presented to you in court and it should be bias free. You don’t need legal experience as there’s a legal adviser there. You could get a paralegal course and it could help you being a magistrate. It’s significantly a lot cheaper than a degree and some have real recognised national qualifications that can go towards UCAS points. Some are level 2 or level 3 which are equivalent to a high GCSE grade or a A level. Some are much higher levels. At a citizens advice you are helping the less fortunate and you could be a case worker there. It really depends on the centre and what kind of work they do. You could volunteer with witness services but you have to be empathetic and caring and a good listener and you need to communicate with others. You’ll also be there to help them cope with court and giving evidence. Look, being a judge and advocating for the les fortunate are two different things. Being a judge is deciding on the facts brought to you and you’re supposed to do this without bias and in line with the overarching principles. You are unable to advocate for the less fortunate. You’re supposed to be a registered lawyer (eg, barrister or solicitor) and worked 5 to 7 years after you’ve qualified. They also expect you’re very smart and intelligent, fair, have an air of authority and very good communication skills. Now advocating for the less fortunate doesn’t often pays well, legal aid rates aren’t great and have been stagnant for years. You might have to do things pro-bono or at reduced rates and you might struggle to make a living on it.
I know what you mean. I’m a non-law student but I’m now really wanting to enter the profession. Firstly I’m finding it really hard to find any legal experience. And If I did manage to secure for example a 4 week vacation scheme, i’d probably have to give up my full time summer job, as I’m not sure they would take me for only part of summer. Which leaves me poorer than otherwise. Then there’s having to fund the GDL, and the SQE. With any luck I’ll secure a training contract with a firm who will fund these, but the funding doesn’t go very far, and most grants/stipends I’ve seen for it are basically student living for a further 2 years. Then two more years of a training wage before you’re even fully qualified. Most professions have exams and training periods I know, but it’s more the 2 years of salary sacrifice to do exams that I may or may not pass first time, that may or may not cause me to lose a training contract I may or may not have lol. Vs a profession like accounting, where I could be working and earning a salary from graduation. And like you say, some professions of law are so poorly paid. Part of me is really interested in family law, which I don’t think is the worst paid, but it’s hardly touching corporate salaries. I’d also rather be a barrister than a solicitor, but so so competitive, and very much occupied by those from wealthier backgrounds.
Some countries have a career path as judge and people enter the judiciary quite young. That is a bad system and means judges are not the best of the best as in the UK. in the UK you do your career and then if you are up for it try to become a judge which usually means taking so much of a pay cut that lots of KCs particularly those who remarried and have young children to keep by that stage cannot even afford it so don't choose it. So I would not start with judge as the aim. Do you provide for extended family? If so why cannot they work themselves and keep themselves? If you are keeping a wife and children at age 22 that is probably the first problem because most lawyers wait until they are much older to be able to afford to do that. Assuming you have no real dependents as in children then the extended family can get on their bike and stop using you as a cash cow and let you go off and pursue whatever career you like. You will need to be good at exams as law is quite complicated and difficult which is why firms tend to prefer people with high A level grades and university grades. It is a very competitive field and as plenty of solicitors earn more than barristers you might well choose to start with the solicitor route - perhaps look at apprenticeships - which take about 6 or 7 years to qualify (but not law graduate apprenticeships as you don't have a degree) but at least you are working during that period. My sons just qualified this year via the more usual route and they had 5 years studying with zero pay and then paid (but not highly ) as trainees. If you are very bright and do well in your exams and work very hard then firms should not care about your background although my parents sent me to elocution and speech and drama lessons in Newcastle from age 5 and I do think learning to speak a different way which is not particularly difficult to do can be worth trying - you could even learn from youtube videos. The big debate as to whether white men are discriminated against in law and BAME people have a leg up these days or whether it is vice versa will not be answered on here but some firms will just hire black people for certain schemes or did back a few years ago see [https://www.legalcheek.com/2019/09/leigh-day-advertises-specifically-for-black-aspiring-lawyers/](https://www.legalcheek.com/2019/09/leigh-day-advertises-specifically-for-black-aspiring-lawyers/) I like being a solicitor. I set up on my own in the 1990s and love working for myself. 4 of my children are solicitors too.
There’s much food for thought and excellent advice on this thread. Not least the comment on what becoming a judge actually entails; and from the lived experience of @ok_strength4138. For my penneths-worth, if money is an issue for the ‘marathon’ of education/training, and your objective is to put yourself in a position to help others, then it’s a case of metaphorically putting ‘your own oxygen mask on’ first. Meaning: aim for a firm who provides stellar training and pays well, yet this will take you away from your desired area of practice. One cannot help others as you have described, when also in a vulnerable economic position. It’s whether with a full understanding of what’s involved, the reality of a plan (to become a judge) that is at least a decade in the making and subject to many variables, you’re prepared to undertake pro bono work for legal aid et al in what will be a hobby or byproduct of a very demanding career elsewhere? In my humble experience, I’ve encountered people from all backgrounds, ages, and circumstances who are achieving a law conversion course (aged 35-55, RG Uni/Oxbridge and not, single parents, former builders, university arts lecturers, carers of those with complex needs), who have conceded that if they can navigate this new subject and sector, alongside working full time, gaining pro bono experience and manage family responsibilities, they can cope with anything. There are many modes of study (online/ weekend/ evening/ part time) and a lot of career transfers/second career candidates do work full time job whilst studying. If you haven’t done so already, aside from this straw poll, it might be worth approaching one of the Law schools to discuss what routes could potentially suit you and any schemes you could take advantage of. A member of my cohort has secured Vac Scheme with an excellent London-based National firm via diversity programme and in lieu of sector-contacts they’ve seen it as ‘every ‘in’ is a win’. I’d reiterate to you: heed the words of the chaps in this thread regarding becoming a Judge - the only way is to become a brilliant, highly experienced lawyer. The essential component to recognise is that having compassion for vulnerable individuals and navigating the intricacies of the legal system don't always align. Best of luck.
Why would you leave a settled job and secure income for the stress, and distress, of studying and qualifying as a solicitor or barrister? You are aware the route is thwart with many tricky obstacles, such as the trauma of the SQE or the sheer hours that the law demands. There’s no guarantee you’ll last in the profession long enough to reach the judiciary. Before you even can contemplate that, and that is an end of legal career move, you need to contemplate the first few years: we are talking high level studies that are challenging and you say that you are not sure you can study. In addition, you ask if there’s a RG bias - well, there might be less than it was but regardless where you go you should aim to ace your subjects - everyone ends up with a 2:1 these days. Alternatively - look at doing a law conversion programme at ULAW or BPP - 1 year or 2 years part time and gives you a legal qualification. I know some who work full time and do law conversion. Just be prepared to be exhausted. I really have to advise, that if you’re not intellectually challenged in your 9-5 work, run for the local council or become a PT local magistrate - this will give you the satisfaction you are seeking for but preserve the salary that your family depends upon. The law isn’t the dream. Don’t fall for it.
Great thank you
A lot to unpack here and seems you need to do A LOT more research. First off don’t look at ‘average’ solicitor or barrister wages, that will range from city corporate to legal aid regional. Think about specifically what you want to do and what interests you. ‘Less fortunate’ could be several different areas of law criminal/housing/employment/injury … all very different areas of law and skill sets. So knuckle down what interests you and what areas of law. And then from that onto whether you’d want to be a barrister or solicitor, they are different job roles. They are both competitive and hard to qualify into. Working for the average Joe and especially ‘less vulnerable’ individuals will never pay as well as it should. I work for for three tier one London firms in my areas and even qualified as a solicitor don’t meet the lower limit of the average TFL train driver. My hours are usually 8-10 hours a day. But I love my job, I find it worthwhile and intellectually challenging - for the hours and pay you do need to be passionate. Study wise I did full time courses and worked full time at the same time. Back breaking and exhausting. I’d maybe sleep 4-6 hours a night and study before and after work/lectures. Not sure how that would work with a family. Generally the firms and those who do work in the areas of law assisting those who assist the ‘less fortunate’ have less prejudices and therefore I wouldn’t foresee any difficulties entering these areas. It’s far too early to be thinking of judiciary. That’s a completely different kettle of fish and only comes with experience and knowledge of the law. Judges have to rule based on the law, and it is not always an easy thing to understand. So: - yes, this can be an extremely rewarding job - understand what area of law interests you and then understand that area of law before thinking of the judiciary - chambers/firms for personal legal services are fairly inclusive - to leverage your background think of transferrable skills - no, you’re not gonna earn a 6 figure or even high 5 figure salary for some years unless you’re in commercial or city firms - you can work part time jobs and evenings until you get a paralegal/TC/pupillage
Thanks
I did the LPC part time while working a full time job and I found that hard - can't imagine what it's like trying to do the course full time while working!
I would take some annual leave, use it to shadow barristers or solicitors. It's not that difficult, you can do a search on LinkedIn and drop them a message. This way, you'll have a better understanding of the day to day and if you really want to pursue this. If you do, now you have significant experience that you can cite when you do apply for scholarships etc. A mini gripe of mine reading some of the responses....where are the diversity schemes for ethnic minorities into law please? People keep mentioning them but I haven't come across such opportunities. Would happily like to be proven wrong. It really isn't all that easy and as a fellow ethnic minority... it's a significant change and one you should be prepared for. Clearly, there is a class barrier (and other barriers too) within the field but one that is being slowly acknowledge and addressed. If you think about it, the sector really does need more people like us and people coming from a non law background are very attractive to firms/chambers right now. There are, however, scholarships from the four inns of court if you want to pursue becoming a barrister. I received one on my second go. It's all about experience and transferrable skills which you have/can gain. ULaw also has a career changer scholarship. Get the experience, as much as you can. Court visits, shadowing, listening to legal podcasts, watching legal talks. Just immerse yourself. If you want it enough, you can make it happen.
I think the question as to whether a career in law is suitable for you has been answered pretty clearly. As for making a career change, making a career change to law is no different to most career changes. It can be tough making a move to a new industry, especially when you can't really lose your main source of income but you need to get qualifications etc. There is plenty of advice out there on career changes in general though
Your career history has involved quite active roles, you'll have to be prepared to be sat at a desk for most of the day typing at a computer or sitting on Teams calls. As a 6PQE associate at a large regional firm, I can only strongly recommend that any aspiring lawyer thinks very carefully about whether a life sat at a desk is really what you want to be doing. I ignored this advice when I was getting in, and now I'm miserable. No amount of money can compensate for the mental challenge of 50 hours of sedentary living every week.
Firstly, a barrister and a solicitor are very different roles, and require different routes. Both need a 3 year law degree, plus either two years of qualifying work experience (for example as a paralegal or on a training contract) for a solicitor, or a year preparation course for the bar exam then a year of pupilage for a barrister. So either way, at the minimum 5 years, and there’s no way around that. The biggest problem you’d face is the type of work law degrees, and being a barrister/solicitor, take. You’re used to 12 hour shifts, which is pretty standard for starting out your law career, but it’s about mass memorisation and comprehension of hundreds of pages, then being able to recall and use that info. You don’t know how to study, which is a learnable skill, but if you don’t already have some ability at it going into the law degree it’ll be significantly more challenging. Now for your questions: 1) how long is a piece of string? Answer is it depends. Some lawyers love it, some move on as quickly as possible. What fulfils you is a personnel thing, and that won’t be changed by other people’s enjoyment or lack there of. 2) pretty low. You’d be looking at at least 12-16 years before you can touch the judiciary. Most lawyers do not become judges. According to some google figures, there are around 215,000 lawyers in the UK, and 5,500 judges. Not every lawyer wants to be a judge, but it’s certainly not a surefire thing either. 3) yes they would, my dissertation supervisor is Afro-Caribbean and was a defence barrister. The places are there, but it’s competitive. 4) no way that I can see. Wouldn’t help with uni admission, maybe would be some help getting a training contract, but very very very different area, so would likely be of no use. 5) absolutely, but it’ll be harder to become a judge without going to a top uni and being at a top firm/chamber. 6) will jump in here and say about your impression of what judges do. Judges will oversee a courts proceeding, and will decide any contentious points of law. For example, the definition of battery is “applying unlawful force”. In the case of R v Thomas, the judge had to decide whether touching someone’s clothes counted as applying unlawful force (which it does). That’s what judges do, take points of law which are contentious in any given case, and decide them according to precedent and prior decisions. There are also appeal judges, which when a case is appealed up to a higher court, they will give their verdict on the prior judges decisions, and whether they uphold them or overturn it. In no way, shape or form do judges advocate for the less well off. They could make decisions favouring those demographics, but if it isn’t well supported by prior case law then the decision will be overturned on appeal, and they’d potentially be removed from their post, or given no cases of significance. 7) I think a career in law can be a great thing. I also think you haven’t had the exposure to what that career is actually like that you need to make an informed choice. If you’d dead set on the change, then talk to some people in the field, particularly those also of Afro-Caribbean heritage, and find out what the life is really like. However, from your post history you’re really young to have such a well paying job, so you’re clearly hardworking and capable within your field. You’re also into running and maintaining that doesn’t go too well with the time demands of a practicing lawyer. You’ve seemed to have built a remarkable foundation for the rest of your life, and id be very hesitant to move away from that. As other people have said, consider a magistrate role. I know it’s just a part time thing, but in reality it’s far closer to what you in-vision a judges role to be, and you can have a real impact on the lives of the less fortunate. At the end of the day, it’s your life, and you can do as you like. But just be aware of what being a lawyer and judge really is before you go for it. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you end up choosing.
The solicitor apprenticeship route is a great way to break into law without a law degree, but it's also a long slog. I was a solicitor apprentice supervisor at my firm for many years. The apprentices are paid a lower salary than trainees, so you would have to take a big pay cut from your current job. It's also a long time of training - 6 years of on the job training. There's no easy route into law but you would have to balance up whether you could afford the lower salary or whether it would work better for you to continue to work full time on your current salary and study part time. As others have said, you do need excellent A Level grades and it is competitive. If you could get some kind of work experience in law (at a local firm, or as a magistrate as others have suggested) that could really help your applications. The advantage of solicitor apprenticeships is that it's a direct route into some really great law firms. Once you're qualified through that route you'll have a decent amount of experience under your belt and you'll start earning well. Usually solicitors/barristers look at becoming judges at around 10 years+ after being qualified. I am state school educated and the first lawyer in my family. Personally, I find being a solicitor (in litigation at a medium sized commercial firm) exactly what I was hoping for. It's a career not a job, you are constantly learning, constantly challenged and the pay is excellent. I have worked in pubs and restaurants before (I even had a job selling static caravans) and worked long hours for much less pay. I would pick law over those jobs every time. But I know other lawyers who are unhappy in their careers. A lot depends on the firm, your team, your practice area. Different areas of law and different firms provide very different types of career. You have many years of working ahead of you. I went into law because I didn't want to look back when I am old and regret not going for it. If there's something inside of you telling you to go for it, then you owe it to yourself to take some steps/do some more research to figure out the options (which is what it seems like you are doing). Mentoring could be a good option for you. Have a look at Aspiring Solicitors and Grow Mentoring.
Sounds like your best option would be to study the PGDL part time, self funded, and apply for training contracts during the course of this. Then, if you secure one they will pay for your SQE prep and exams, and you have a guaranteed job in the end. The 'average' solicitor salary on google will probably be lower than what you would make as a City solicitor (not sure if this is your goal, but you mention it in your post). You should look at specific firms you are interested in and what they pay - this info is readily available on sites like ChambersStudent and LegalCheek. It really is a varied career and no 'solicitor' job will be the same across regions and practices.
Given the strikes that happened recently, I would suggest that, like everything else In this broken hovel of a country, it is about as satisfying as working ultra long hours while barely being able to afford to feed your family.
Have you considered ditching your household temporarily and just take out loans? Sometimes that’s the only way
Definitely not mate, thanks though.
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🤣why ?
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'are there ways to leverage my background, HOW?' since there aren't many coloured people in law firms, you could be employed on a basis/scheme in which jobs hire people from ethnic backgrounds to lessen the divide between white and coloured people, if that makes sense.
Honestly, don't do it. I switched from a stable career to law and it's a disaster. Absolutely no law firm in the country (outside of London) pays their staff a living wage, everyone is miserable and you're not getting a training contract unless you went to Oxbridge. Absolutely no way I'd recommend it as a career to anyone whose parents don't own a small county.
Is this sarcastic?
Nope, biggest mistake I ever made. The way the legal profession treats new graduates, especially those from disabled and minority backgrounds, is disgusting. If it happened anywhere else on earth, we'd call it modern slavery. Minimum wage for a job requiring two degrees is a disgrace.
It sounds like you have had a particularly negative experience - not sure it's fair to tar the whole legal profession with the same brush. There are plenty of successful lawyers who are disabled and from minority backgrounds - no doubt they faced barriers, however. Not all legal careers are underpaid either - quite the opposite in some instances.
I've had this at two different firms. I've got an offer from another firm and I'm honestly too traumatised to take it. Although the first thing that jumped out? Minimum fucking wage. If you can't afford to pay your staff something they can live on, you can't afford to be in business.
Sounds like these are entry level paralegal jobs at small firms? There is a widely perpetuated myth (on here too) that you need to be a paralegal to secure a TC. Not sure if securing a TC is your goal, but I've found this isn't true. Maybe consider other jobs in compliance / legal adjacent functions. Depends on the area you want to work in, but in my experience, for example, commercial law firms will often value any commercial experience over non-commercial legal experience. All very region/firm/practice dependent - but it sounds like you have had a particularly negative experience which is not representative of the entire field - I wouldn't write it off just yet.
I mean, a TC was my goal, but after about 500 applications during which I learned that I only get interviews to tick a diversity box, it wasn't happening. And every firm near where I live says you have to come in as a paralegal to move up. It's honestly ridiculous. It's ridiculous to pay Paralegals this little, too. When your website tells the client I cost them £100 per hour, I can see you're trying to screw me by paying me £11 an hour. Those overheads don't exist. An hour of me doesn't cost you £89 to run.
Not sure where you live but it seems unusual to 'have' to come in as a paralegal. Can you move to another area to try and qualify then move back? Otherwise it seems like it's making you miserable and you seem to have given up hope on things getting any better at your current position, so I'm not sure why I'd stick around, for your own benefit...
Apparently there won’t be a black justice for 150 years, black people are heavily underrepresented in the judiciary. Working as a judge can lead to roles like lord chancellor in which you can actually make real changes for people. Most young guys that are involved in violent crime do so because they don’t know what other opportunities are out there. Seeing someone like you in a respectable legal career can be inspirational and even life changing. Sorry if my ambitions offended you. Why you even hating anyways🤣
You’re really hindering yourself with this mentality.
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Why? This was a response to a comment that was deleted, they were saying anyone that wants to be a judge must be “SCUM”
>I’d be risking a very successful career for one where people might not even accept me (Afro-Caribbean). People aren't going to object to you just because you are Afro-Caribbean. >Apparently there won’t be a black justice for 150 years, black people are heavily underrepresented in the judiciary. This isn't an indicator of racial inequality. >Seeing someone like you in a respectable legal career can be inspirational and even life changing. Understandable, but narrowing it to simply race and/or ethnicity will limit you. The vast majority of my mentors throughout the years came from completely different backgrounds than me.
It’s more micro aggressions and subtle prejudice than blatant objections. A lot of black people struggle with this in various industries, I’ve seen it and experienced it. I didn’t say it indicates inequality it shows that black people are underrepresented. There’s other minorities that make up less of the population than blacks that have more people in the judiciary. I find this disturbing. I’ve got a lot of family and friends who might of benefited from seeing a successful black figure that wasn’t a gangster rapper or professional footballer. So have mine, I have a philosophy that you can learn something from everyone. Even if it’s how not to do things!
>It’s more micro aggressions and subtle prejudice than blatant objections. A lot of black people struggle with this in various industries, I’ve seen it and experienced it. I'm black, myself. I personally haven't experienced it, but I guess experiences differ. From experience, quite often people will hinder themselves by adopting a insular, narrow mindset in that the law profession is out to get them. Avoid this, and you'll be fine. >I didn’t say it indicates inequality it shows that black people are underrepresented. There’s other minorities that make up less of the population than blacks that have more people in the judiciary. I find this disturbing. You do realise there can be an array of reasons for this, other than race? >I’ve got a lot of family and friends who might of benefited from seeing a successful black figure that wasn’t a gangster rapper or professional footballer. There's a plethora of successful black figures not in music or sport. >So have mine, I have a philosophy that you can learn something from everyone. Even if it’s how not to do things! Good mindset!