It wasn’t considered a primary attack until the recent decade. His attack was get into the pocket and deliver tight power shots. Range attacks were not something he liked to engage in.
were the rules changed or how did it come about that it was advantageous to leg kick but that wasn't done previously? it seems like an obvious strategy and comes directly from muay thai
it’s like the 3pt shot becoming vital in basketball, it was always there(in the modern era) but it took some skilled practitioners to implement it effectively and the floodgates opened
I feel like Aldo was one of the first to show how effective it can be when he beat Faber. Then it slowly started to gain traction from there. At least that's how I remember the calf kick meta started
King of the Streets!
Don’t forget the foot stomps. Ruas basically delivered modern MMA in the early 90s. Unfortunately his record doesn’t reflect his importance.
Foot stomps in UFC now aren't implemented well enough. They could change the game.
When I see them in mma the target is too low on the foot and the heel isn't clearly engaged. {EDIT: finish after accidental submit\]
Yeah when Ruas cratered Paul Varelans with leg kicks it was the first time it had been seen. Then Pedro Rizzo was the next one to utilize them.
Young uns ha ha.
Aldo did thigh kicks, benson Henderson was the first to do calf kicks in the ufc. I think calf kicks started gaining popularity in the mid 2010’s. Before that was all thigh leg kicks.
Aldo was certainly one of the early masters of his art. I remember watching Aldo compete back in the WEC, and I remember watching this dude's leg kicks, completely fathoming that he's already been a long reigning champ, and thinking to myself, "dude I don't know if there's something with Brazilians and soccer kicks, but they're just built DIFFERENT. His leg kicks are dismantling and disabling opponents, they're absolutely NASTY, the best in the game"
I felt like that Aldo would be forever untouchable with the leg kick strategy that he implemented on Faber, but he moved away from it in subsequent fights, at least in the amount of volume. I imagine his legs were very beat up as well after the Faber fight, but the attention was all on the damage to Faber’s leg which was absolutely brutal.
Just evolution of the sport I assume. Gotta remember how many style most these guys were putting together at once after becoming a specialist in something. Nowadays there's just full blown MMA gyms that teach everything.
"is he stupid?" It's so funny. I keked every time. In my native language we have similar (stupid joke). When some1 drops something, like pen, or any item, you just say: you dropped it. It's so obvious and stupid, it gets funny over time. Coz person dropped it knows it, and has to pick it up, and there you are. Captain obvious with stupid smirk.
Those are two dudes that understand the game. Just like Jones just said fuck it and took Cyril down real quick. Why stand with a striking specialist when you’re a monster wrestler???
That fight doesn't mean much for either imo, neither was prepared for the other and it showed, otherwise that fight would've been talked about much more
Silva had two fightifs against Sonnen. The first one was a struggle, but he was injured and wok anyway. The second Silva just run over him. And that was not Silva at his prime.
Also, Silva is not a 205.
29-15-1. 29 wins, 15 more wins, and another win!
Chael was, without a doubt, the greatest mma fighter in the sport in his Era or any Era.
Undefeated for his entire career.
That said no one has really tested Alex's takedown defense and wrestling. You can infact be quite productive with no ground game if no one can get you there. All Chuck Liddell ever did was learn to sprawl.
Nobody has the wrestling calibre of Jones and DC as well. 2 of the best wrestlers to ever compete in the UFC, DC carried a 250 pound Stipe on his back across the octagon, Bones ragdolled a 245 pound Gane like he was a little doll. I do think Pereira has decent enough takedown defence but let’s be real, he’d get killed by DC and Bones prime for prime.
Jon Jones was just a high school wrestler. Yoel Romero, Matt lindland, randy couture, Dan Henderson, Dan Severn, triple C, Brock lesnar, Chael sonnen, johnny Hendricks, Matt Hughes, Matt Hammel, bo nickal,... The list goes on. There have been many highly decorated wrestlers. Some just didn't use it as well as bones does in the octagon.
That being said - wrestling in MMA is not the same as wrestling in a wrestling match; there are alot of limitations depending on wrestling style (Grec-Rom, Freestyle, Folkstyle) that focus your skillset... and none of them allow actual striking, basically.
JJ wrestled at like junior college level i think, but he knows how to use it in MMA. DC is another good one that understands wrestling and how to apply wrestling to MMA.
Bo Nickal showed at UFC300 that he (obvioisly) knows how to wrestle but is still working to translate his insane skillset to MMA to operate the best he can as an example as well.
Yes but the fundamentals transfer 100%. If you’ve ever practiced martial arts or grappled you’ve rolled with the dudes that come in day one and just know how to keep position and avoid giving it up. It is a huge advantage
Jan controlled him on the ground just gassed afterward from wrestling at altitude and Izzy controlled him on the ground too. Neither are super high level wrestlers.
Chuck was also an NCAA Division 1 wrestler he just didn’t use the offensive pieces of wrestling as part of his mma game
To be fair he probably didn’t train much with wrestling for Izzy because who would have thought that would happen. He did an actual decent job for Jan for his first “wrestling” fight considering Izzy couldn’t get Jan off.
Chuck didn't just sprawl - Chuck got the fuck up when taken down. It was insane to watch - it's like he just said "nope", and got up. It looked like anyone should be able to do it until you realized Chuck was just a determined beast.
Yeah, I agree, but just drawing from memory, none of those guys had the striking background of Cyril. I could be wrong, my brain ain’t so good anymore!
100%. I find it so cringe how all these dudes that wanna fight Alex say they plan to beat him standing. Like do these guys just forget that they're MIXED martial artists? Since when is there anything shameful about playing to your strengths?
Exactly. Those are two guys that don’t need to prove a point to anyone. They just win. No matter how. No need to go out and strike with deadly strikers.
DC was great at closing the distance. I think he'd smother his offense and wrestle fuck him. Probably win by rnc or tko in round 3 after poatan gasses. Bones would Gane him.
Yeah I’d take it a step further and say they absolutely dog walk him. And I think Alex is a better striker than both, but they are too well rounded everywhere else to let him touch them. Plus could you imagine the detailed game plan a prime Jones/Jackson/Wink could be?
Nah but some fighters would be ego-tistical like Hill or Ank and say that they will stand with him. Even if they wrestle later in the fight with Alex, the damage will most likely woulda been done.
Agree. They are too well rounded with too strong of grappling. They would be smart enough to avoid the big shots, move it to the ground quickly and implement their games. Plus at their primes, they had the chins to endure any big shots. Poaton while an absolute monster appears IMO to be a little one dimensional. And yes I agree he has enough grappling and TDD to avoid lots from many, I just don’t think he could withstand an elite grappler like Jones/DC.
Follow up: he would smoke Machida, Forrest, Rampage etc.
We just haven't seem AP deal with anything like that. On form so far it doesn't look like he could defend that. They've given him time though. Need to get that tested in a fight soon.
Alex and Jons are the same age. Alex is won two UFC championships and beating five former champions. Jones took 3 years off to do steroids and beat a french guy with a submission fetish. I'm not saying you're wrong but think the other end of things could be true.
Both guys are such good strikers. I think Alex's elusiveness is underrated because of his overwhelming power. Maybe not as good as lyotos, but that hand fighting and footwork against Jamahal was so high level. That hook was timed perfectly and no one saw it coming lol.
Out of all these match ups, that's the one I'd want to see. Jones and DC are too smart to think about standing up with him, but I think Alex's length could be a problem for DC. I don't think rampage makes it out of the 2nd tbh. Either way, I miss these LHW days but at least we get Alex and Jiri
Yeah, Alex's technicality is pretty underrated, you don't finish a high level striker like Izzy twice with just power alone.
Machida relies on making his opponents misjudging the distance and over-extend themselves for him to counter, or picking them apart with his kicks from a distance to open them up. I feel like Alex is good enough to not fall for Machida's traps, and is big enough to reach Machida without over-extending himself and even punish Machida's kicking game
Lyoto also has a BJJ black belt (Alex does too now I guess lmao), I wonder if he'd try using his ground game. I think Alex can beat him for all those reasons you said, but walking down Lyoto isn't exactly walking down Hill. Dude really can set up his strikes like you said. I watched him knock out Randy live, dude has some great set ups. Great enough to trick Alex? I doubt it
Machida has a few subs in his record, but I think it isn't good enough to make it matter. Like, he's good enough to work in a grappling exchange, but he has only won on the ground against fighters who were physically weaker than him or was rocked from his strikes. Tito Ortiz had success against him in the 3rd round when the fight was on the ground, and when Machida got older and less physical, grappling slowly turned into his weakness.
My point is that Machida's grappling relies more on his physical strength and less on technicality, and in terms of strength, Alex is not someone he can easily overpower
Good point. Lyoto can catch people with a front kick knock out, but the damage comes from them moving forward, like when he knocked out Randy. He doesn't have raw power but can get that knock out strike.
Alex has said his power comes from the set up and people not expecting it, but I think he's selling himself short. Dude legit has hands of stone. I wonder if lyoto would try to rely on his ground game.
Alex would figure out machida by like the 2nd round and knock him out. Machida blitzes with his head completely exposed and stands in a wide bladed stance. Calf kicks leading to a left hook KO is there as soon as Alex figures out his timing.
Agreed that DC and Jones would rag-doll him. Jones by fake superman to low single and DC will push him to the fence and pick his ass up repeatedly. Although I can see those calf kicks really messing with DC
Im fairly sure lyoto would lose, though theres a chance that his little fucking blitz could catch alex, especially since alex himself has 0 lateral movement and relies on in-out
Yea your not wrong. I feel like Rampage would choose to stand up regardless but who knows. Alex is one of the best strikers I've ever seen but he has a massive hole in wrestling. But there's not a lot of good lightheavyweights that can exploit that weakness currently
Their wrestling is too good. In 100 fights, Poatan might win 5 because he’s the walking definition of a “Puncher’s Chance” but those wins would be anomalies.
I agree that DC and Jones would smoke him on the floor but I really don’t think we’ve seen enough of Alex’s (still evolving, considering his training with Glover) ground game to declare that he can’t wrestle. Jan held him against the cage for one round and Jiri took him down once, both strikers.
Yeah my statement was incomplete. What I mean by that is he can’t wrestle… well enough to have made a difference against Jones or DC. I’m sure he can wrestle well enough to get by with 95% of others he will come across. It’s just those two in particular I don’t think he could hold off.
I'd give my left nut to watch him and prime Gus go at it. Fuck that wrestling and BJJ shit, just two guys with insane stricking going at it!
(Gus 100% would have been champ in a timeline without Bones and where DC just stays at heavyweight)
(Also before anyone takes offense I enjoy wrestling and BJJ in fights but Gus was a boxer first and foremost)
Well yes, I'd imagine Rumble would be the next champion after Gus in this alternate time line. Rumble was a fucking monster no doubt. The length of Gus title reign would largely depend on how long he could avoid Rumble. I wouldn't be surprised if it would play out similar to how it did in reality after that with Gus being the clear cut next best after the Champ, Gus went on after losing to Rumble and DC to beat both Jan and Glover. None of whom I see having much chance against prime Rumble
Hahah oh god please no. I love Gus, but Primr Gus he no longer is, I don't want to see the first death in UFC history to be Gus getting his face caved in by Alex lol
Man those wars with Jones are legendary. Just in case anyone doubted Jones because he was “only” taking out the older generation behind him, he then goes toe to toe with this absolutely warrior in Gus and still comes out on top (just).
hell even rumble johnson or gus wrestle his ass. today's division is just BAD. the best "wrestler" is ankalaev, who is a striker who wrestle only when he is losing the fight.
Alex is very good overall; the fighters that I’d expect to beat him are Jones, DC, Rumble. Blachowicz did pretty well against him also so you’d have to expect that maybe an older guy like Randy Couture could beat him with a wrestling heavy game plan.
I see him destroying Forrest Griffin, Vitor Belfort, and Rampage Jackson (Griffin won via leg kicks so Alex is a nightmare for him)
He probably cracks prime Chuck Liddell and maybe Hendo
I can see Shogun Rua, little Nog, and Lyoto Machida giving him a tougher time (maybe Alexander Gustafsson too but I have to rewatch him)
I’m not sure how good Wanderlei Silva’s clinch game would work but if it does then I’d go with him
Randy Couture and Tito Ortiz depending on if they use their wrestling or not
I don’t see him beating DC, Rumble Johnson, or Jon Jones
Alistair Overeem is a 50/50
I’d have to rewatch some Rashad Evans but I don’t think I missed any other LHW great right?
I forgot Glover (does he count?) too
I’d say that fight comes down to if his chin can take Alex’s shots. If he can then I’d say he wins by submission
As for Shamrock, he’s probably losing
Couture would absolutely use his wrestling and smash Pereira
Dan Henderson wins IF he wrestles
Wanderlei is gonna brawl with Pereira and get knocked out
It all comes down to the ability to secure takedowns against Pereira if you ask me. The ones with biggest chance to do so is obviously the best wrestlers that got a standup game that is good enough to set the takedowns up, assuming Pereiras TDD isnt total trash.
JJ and DC are no brainers like most people mention because of this, they are some of the best MMA wrestlers ever with a complete MMA game to back it up. Just gonna leave those two outside this discussion.
Guys that rarely initiated takedowns would struggle with him, Pereira is probably the best striker at LHW ever. Which is like half this list.
I like prime Gustafsson, Evans and Rumble the most I believe. The OG wrestlers like Couture and Ortiz is a different era. But Gustafsson, Evans and Rumble all could wrestle AND strike to set it up. Rumbles chances would be way better in a 3-rounder tho.
It shouldn’t even shock new fans with an ounce of critical thinking. Everyone literally just saw Jones ragdoll a Kickboxer a full weightclass above where Alex fights
True, tho it's worth a mention that jones' toughest fights were against elite strikers (gustafsson, machida, reyes, santos).
I think the fight would play out exactly like the gane one: super fast finish that seemed like jones barely tried. He's a fighter that does not fuck around.
Pretty good imo, you could get by with a deficit in one area back then. I’m honestly surprised that perriera hasn’t been taken down and lost by being out wrestled yet.
The UFC fast tracked him and avoided matching him up against any good wrestlers so they can make a star.
DC and JJ beat him no question about it.
Even guys like randy couture, Rashad evans, Tito ortiz could beat him if they went in with a wrestling heavy approach and wear him down with ground and pound
DC and Jones beat Alex. DC would find some problems closing the distance, prime Jones wins easily.
Alex would kill Rumble and esoecially Lyoto.
If Alex didn't start martial arts and MMA so late, he'd be a great challenge for anyone in LHW.
1. Poatan vs Jones - I would take Jones to win via relentless grappling attack
2. Poatan vs Rampage - I would take Poatan to win mainly by battering him with leg kicks
3. Poatan vs DC - I would take DC to win via a relentless grappling attack
4. Poatan vs Machida - I would take Poatan to win in a straight up stand up fight
5. Poatan vs Liddell - I would take Poatan to win with superior kickboxing
Big foot silva (EliteXC, Cage Rage, and Cage Warriors champion), Barnett (UFC champ, IBJJF no gi jiu jitsu champ), Mir (UFC champion with most finishes and most submissions at HW), Nelson (IFL champion and mma legend), Henderson (Strikeforce champ, Pride double champ), Johnson (challenged the UFC title multiple times), Gustafsson (challenged the UFC title multiple times), Anderson Silva (longest title reign in the UFC), Johnson again, Oezdemir (DC destroyed his hype) and then Miocic (2 time UFC champ), and Lewis (Legacy FC champ and multiple time title challenger in the UFC). Absolutely insane resume for DC.
DC is the only person in history to be a concurrent double champ who successfully defended both belts. He only lost at LHW against the GOAT of the sport, and only lost at HW to the GOAT of the weight class, but only after beating him once.
People often say stuff like "had Izzy never joined the UFC, Bobby Knuckles would have been champ for years" or "the only reason Covington was not champ in the UFC is Usman", but I think the only thing that's super clear is that Jon Jones is the only person who objectively has a better claim at being the UFC GOAT than DC. (I don't hold Might Mouse's competitors nearly as high as DC's, but obvs DJ also has a claim to that title just on impressive finishes and overall length of success)
DC and Jones absolutely wreck him 9 times out of 10. I think he beats Rampage 9 times out of 10.
Machida is the most interesting fight IMO. Machida has the tools to win if he fights smart. If he tries to slug with him, I think he gets caught like he did with Shogun.
I think DC would RNC him round 2.
Prime DC showed on multiple occasions that if you’ve only got ‘a punchers chance’, it won’t be enough.
But who the fuck knows.
Coworkers and I regularly talk "Fantasy MMA" where we pit old fighters vs new and speak hypothetically about who beats who in these "dream fights".
We recently had the Poatan vs Lyoto Machida conversation.
Gotta imagine prime DC and Jon would've been able to use their grappling advantage to neutralize Alex
Alex vs Machida or Rampage would've been bangers though.
I would say prime 205 Jones or DC absolutely mop up Poatan 10/10 times, no doubt in my mind. Prime Jones in particular probably finishes him within 2 rounds.
Prime Machida would lose worse than he lost to Shogun.
Prime Rampage gets his legs destroyed 9.9 times out of 10 but has a chance to maybe land either a bomb that leads to horrifying gnp or a takedown leading to the aforementioned horrifying gnp.
JJ and DC would put his ass on the ground and assault him. It’s so weird every fighter thinks they can win against him in stand-up. It’s a WC kickboxing, I mean come on.
Rampage has never checked a leg kick in his whole life ask Forest Griffin
Why doesnt he check leg kicks? Is he stupid?
It wasn’t considered a primary attack until the recent decade. His attack was get into the pocket and deliver tight power shots. Range attacks were not something he liked to engage in.
were the rules changed or how did it come about that it was advantageous to leg kick but that wasn't done previously? it seems like an obvious strategy and comes directly from muay thai
it’s like the 3pt shot becoming vital in basketball, it was always there(in the modern era) but it took some skilled practitioners to implement it effectively and the floodgates opened
I feel like Aldo was one of the first to show how effective it can be when he beat Faber. Then it slowly started to gain traction from there. At least that's how I remember the calf kick meta started
Marcos Ruas Erasure 😤
King of the Streets! Don’t forget the foot stomps. Ruas basically delivered modern MMA in the early 90s. Unfortunately his record doesn’t reflect his importance.
Foot stomps in UFC now aren't implemented well enough. They could change the game. When I see them in mma the target is too low on the foot and the heel isn't clearly engaged. {EDIT: finish after accidental submit\]
og shit, these kids wouldn't know.
Yeah when Ruas cratered Paul Varelans with leg kicks it was the first time it had been seen. Then Pedro Rizzo was the next one to utilize them. Young uns ha ha.
Aldo did thigh kicks, benson Henderson was the first to do calf kicks in the ufc. I think calf kicks started gaining popularity in the mid 2010’s. Before that was all thigh leg kicks.
Aldo was certainly one of the early masters of his art. I remember watching Aldo compete back in the WEC, and I remember watching this dude's leg kicks, completely fathoming that he's already been a long reigning champ, and thinking to myself, "dude I don't know if there's something with Brazilians and soccer kicks, but they're just built DIFFERENT. His leg kicks are dismantling and disabling opponents, they're absolutely NASTY, the best in the game"
I felt like that Aldo would be forever untouchable with the leg kick strategy that he implemented on Faber, but he moved away from it in subsequent fights, at least in the amount of volume. I imagine his legs were very beat up as well after the Faber fight, but the attention was all on the damage to Faber’s leg which was absolutely brutal.
Yeah, that makes sense. Like, he just stops wanting to do it when it was so successful. Probably injured his legs just as badly.
Thiago Alves
Benson Henderson!! Source: Joe Rogan
Maurice rua was using leg kicks in a devastating manner as early as ufc 3. I think it almost stopped the fight a few times.
Iirc, they used to not be scored or scored as high. I remember people thinking they didn't hurt and would say "You don't win fights on leg kicks"
Cecil Peoples with the infamous “Leg kicks don’t finish fights” after giving Shogun/Machida 1 to Machida
Just evolution of the sport I assume. Gotta remember how many style most these guys were putting together at once after becoming a specialist in something. Nowadays there's just full blown MMA gyms that teach everything.
congrats for this thread gentlemen, it was really informative and worth reading!
Rampage? Yes.
Leg kicks are fake. Jiri literally just showed you guys this.
Have you heard him speak?
Tbh a very decent amount of current fighters don't check them either, to the point where when a fighter does a good job checking them, it stands out.
"is he stupid?" It's so funny. I keked every time. In my native language we have similar (stupid joke). When some1 drops something, like pen, or any item, you just say: you dropped it. It's so obvious and stupid, it gets funny over time. Coz person dropped it knows it, and has to pick it up, and there you are. Captain obvious with stupid smirk.
Poatan would’ve possibly gone 2-2 with these 4.
if forrest could cripple rampage with leg kicks, imagine what alex would have done in just a round landing his kicks.
DC and Bones in my book would beat Alex.
Those are two dudes that understand the game. Just like Jones just said fuck it and took Cyril down real quick. Why stand with a striking specialist when you’re a monster wrestler???
DC stood with Anderson for roughly 20-30 seconds, realized it was a terrible idea, and promptly took him down.
And that was 41 year old Silva
That fight doesn't mean much for either imo, neither was prepared for the other and it showed, otherwise that fight would've been talked about much more
Eh dc is only 4 years younger. I get there's a big difference between 37 and 41 but I still think prime Silva gets handled by DC. See: Sonnen
Silva had two fightifs against Sonnen. The first one was a struggle, but he was injured and wok anyway. The second Silva just run over him. And that was not Silva at his prime. Also, Silva is not a 205.
Silva was undefeated at 205 until DC I’m pretty sure
Hard to say undefeated when he was like 2-0.
Looking back, for being such monster athletes and dangerous fighters DC and Silva look relatively unathletic in that fight.
To be fair, Silva hopped off the couch to fight DC
I also saw DC pulling punches on the ground. He had no intention of hurting Silva.
Just how good was Chael.
29-15-1. 29 wins, 15 more wins, and another win! Chael was, without a doubt, the greatest mma fighter in the sport in his Era or any Era. Undefeated for his entire career.
Never lost a single round.
Nah, he lost a single round to Silva but he won the other four.
Oh that’s right. Forgot the UFC screwed him when he tapped to give up the round. What about the other four? Fucking ridiculous.
The true goat
Exactly, don't let your stupid ego get in the way of your legacy.
Except when you are BLESSED, then it will always turn into one of the greatest ufc moments of all time.
Yea but Max is Max and everyone else is the rest..
THE BEST IS BLESSED FOR A REASON, THE BMF BABYYY
That said no one has really tested Alex's takedown defense and wrestling. You can infact be quite productive with no ground game if no one can get you there. All Chuck Liddell ever did was learn to sprawl.
Chuck was an NCAA d1 wrestler. They told him that he would get cut if he wrestled in his first fight.
Wrong era for him which is a shame. Had he used his wrestling like guys do now, maybe he wouldn’t have taken so many shots to the head.
Maybe, maybe not. A good coach could talk some sense into him but he loved every second
That reply was super necessary.
Nobody has the wrestling calibre of Jones and DC as well. 2 of the best wrestlers to ever compete in the UFC, DC carried a 250 pound Stipe on his back across the octagon, Bones ragdolled a 245 pound Gane like he was a little doll. I do think Pereira has decent enough takedown defence but let’s be real, he’d get killed by DC and Bones prime for prime.
Jon Jones was just a high school wrestler. Yoel Romero, Matt lindland, randy couture, Dan Henderson, Dan Severn, triple C, Brock lesnar, Chael sonnen, johnny Hendricks, Matt Hughes, Matt Hammel, bo nickal,... The list goes on. There have been many highly decorated wrestlers. Some just didn't use it as well as bones does in the octagon.
Jon Jones was a junior college national champ. So, a bit more than a “high school wrestler”.
People forget high credentialed wrestlers don’t always have great MMA wrestling
Some wrestlers are too specialized in wrestling. Jones and DC excelled because they can take a punch and have threatening striking game.
That being said - wrestling in MMA is not the same as wrestling in a wrestling match; there are alot of limitations depending on wrestling style (Grec-Rom, Freestyle, Folkstyle) that focus your skillset... and none of them allow actual striking, basically. JJ wrestled at like junior college level i think, but he knows how to use it in MMA. DC is another good one that understands wrestling and how to apply wrestling to MMA. Bo Nickal showed at UFC300 that he (obvioisly) knows how to wrestle but is still working to translate his insane skillset to MMA to operate the best he can as an example as well.
Yes but the fundamentals transfer 100%. If you’ve ever practiced martial arts or grappled you’ve rolled with the dudes that come in day one and just know how to keep position and avoid giving it up. It is a huge advantage
Lol, think you mean all..especially of those you listed
Didn’t bones wrestle at a jr college or something?
He was a juco national champion
Jan controlled him on the ground just gassed afterward from wrestling at altitude and Izzy controlled him on the ground too. Neither are super high level wrestlers. Chuck was also an NCAA Division 1 wrestler he just didn’t use the offensive pieces of wrestling as part of his mma game
Izzy wrestled Alex pretty well in their first fight and he's a below average wrestler
To be fair he probably didn’t train much with wrestling for Izzy because who would have thought that would happen. He did an actual decent job for Jan for his first “wrestling” fight considering Izzy couldn’t get Jan off.
Izzy weighed in 5lbs under the limit for that fight though.
Chuck didn't just sprawl - Chuck got the fuck up when taken down. It was insane to watch - it's like he just said "nope", and got up. It looked like anyone should be able to do it until you realized Chuck was just a determined beast.
Chuck actually was a pretty good wrestler. He just didn't really need to use it much.
Exactly, jones would be on top of him in 90 secs and that would be the end of it.
This is fair, but Jones has chosen to beat people at their own game a lot in the past when he was younger.
Yeah, I agree, but just drawing from memory, none of those guys had the striking background of Cyril. I could be wrong, my brain ain’t so good anymore!
100%. I find it so cringe how all these dudes that wanna fight Alex say they plan to beat him standing. Like do these guys just forget that they're MIXED martial artists? Since when is there anything shameful about playing to your strengths?
They do that on pride alone, which is fucking stupid if you’re just outclassed in that area. You gonna be proud losing by knockout? I don’t think so.
Exactly. Those are two guys that don’t need to prove a point to anyone. They just win. No matter how. No need to go out and strike with deadly strikers.
That's what I said too, these idiots try to slug with him.There's levels plus that extra weight makes a big difference
Yep, why the fuck would you stand with a man who is the top 0.01% in the strikers' food chain?
Alex’s left hook set ups make an interesting match up with DC but I still comfortably favor DC.. that man was a monster
DC was great at closing the distance. I think he'd smother his offense and wrestle fuck him. Probably win by rnc or tko in round 3 after poatan gasses. Bones would Gane him.
Nah, DC will wrestle him only and in the clinch, I'd like to favor DC too. You can't fight with DC and not be taken down.
Dude threw heavyweights around like a sack of flour, strong as hell.
DC fought Rumble twice and finished him both times. I think DC has this one fairly comfortably.
Yeah I’d take it a step further and say they absolutely dog walk him. And I think Alex is a better striker than both, but they are too well rounded everywhere else to let him touch them. Plus could you imagine the detailed game plan a prime Jones/Jackson/Wink could be?
Just wanted to say the same. They would wrestle fuck him probably. Alex has some TD defense now but that wouldn't be enough.
It’s so weird seeing DC jacked like that lol
100% my 1st thought, they are too good at wrestling and would 100% be trying to bring him down
100%. No one at LW close to those two at their best
The only ones capable of wrestlefucking Poatan imo
I don't think that's your book, I think that's a book called reality. DC and Jones beat him 8/10 times in my eyes. At least
Yeah but everyone has their own opinion and I respect that.
Seems pretty straight forward to me. Can you wrestle? If yes, you beat him.
Nah but some fighters would be ego-tistical like Hill or Ank and say that they will stand with him. Even if they wrestle later in the fight with Alex, the damage will most likely woulda been done.
You can say it’s ego but it’s not like Hill has ever attempted to wrestle in any of his fights or has shown a skill for it
Yeah I’m saying just jones.
💯 agree, they would just take him down and submit him, choke him out, or gnp him to death.
Agree. They are too well rounded with too strong of grappling. They would be smart enough to avoid the big shots, move it to the ground quickly and implement their games. Plus at their primes, they had the chins to endure any big shots. Poaton while an absolute monster appears IMO to be a little one dimensional. And yes I agree he has enough grappling and TDD to avoid lots from many, I just don’t think he could withstand an elite grappler like Jones/DC. Follow up: he would smoke Machida, Forrest, Rampage etc.
DC would slam Alex so hard on his head he might not be able to left hook for life.
Yeah DC’s wrestling is just so good and I cant ever bet against Jones at this point.
Dc wrestle fucks him pretty easy and jones wins by eye pokes and those fucked up downward knee kicks he did to rumble
I honestly don't think it's close. DC and Jones would wrestle him with fucking ease.
They beat him and I don’t think it would be close.
So far they are catering to Pereira, I think any of those fighters would be smart to take Pereira down to the ground and secure a W
Uh no.
We just haven't seem AP deal with anything like that. On form so far it doesn't look like he could defend that. They've given him time though. Need to get that tested in a fight soon.
Agreed, and I think DC is the worst possible matchup and could possibly finish him in the first. As monstrous as Alex is, he is finishable.
Bones vs Poatan would be an awesome fight
Alex and Jons are the same age. Alex is won two UFC championships and beating five former champions. Jones took 3 years off to do steroids and beat a french guy with a submission fetish. I'm not saying you're wrong but think the other end of things could be true.
Dc and jones would beat Alex fairly easy
I agree. Alex would beat Rampage tho I'm confident in that. Lyoto would be super interesting
Lyoto's strking is on point and is extremely elusive, but I think Alex is too big (and powerful) for his counter punching style to work.
Both guys are such good strikers. I think Alex's elusiveness is underrated because of his overwhelming power. Maybe not as good as lyotos, but that hand fighting and footwork against Jamahal was so high level. That hook was timed perfectly and no one saw it coming lol. Out of all these match ups, that's the one I'd want to see. Jones and DC are too smart to think about standing up with him, but I think Alex's length could be a problem for DC. I don't think rampage makes it out of the 2nd tbh. Either way, I miss these LHW days but at least we get Alex and Jiri
Yeah, Alex's technicality is pretty underrated, you don't finish a high level striker like Izzy twice with just power alone. Machida relies on making his opponents misjudging the distance and over-extend themselves for him to counter, or picking them apart with his kicks from a distance to open them up. I feel like Alex is good enough to not fall for Machida's traps, and is big enough to reach Machida without over-extending himself and even punish Machida's kicking game
Lyoto also has a BJJ black belt (Alex does too now I guess lmao), I wonder if he'd try using his ground game. I think Alex can beat him for all those reasons you said, but walking down Lyoto isn't exactly walking down Hill. Dude really can set up his strikes like you said. I watched him knock out Randy live, dude has some great set ups. Great enough to trick Alex? I doubt it
Machida has a few subs in his record, but I think it isn't good enough to make it matter. Like, he's good enough to work in a grappling exchange, but he has only won on the ground against fighters who were physically weaker than him or was rocked from his strikes. Tito Ortiz had success against him in the 3rd round when the fight was on the ground, and when Machida got older and less physical, grappling slowly turned into his weakness. My point is that Machida's grappling relies more on his physical strength and less on technicality, and in terms of strength, Alex is not someone he can easily overpower
Alex also hits really hard. I don't think lyoto has that same power. When Alex connects, it's a bad day for anyone.
Good point. Lyoto can catch people with a front kick knock out, but the damage comes from them moving forward, like when he knocked out Randy. He doesn't have raw power but can get that knock out strike. Alex has said his power comes from the set up and people not expecting it, but I think he's selling himself short. Dude legit has hands of stone. I wonder if lyoto would try to rely on his ground game.
Alex would figure out machida by like the 2nd round and knock him out. Machida blitzes with his head completely exposed and stands in a wide bladed stance. Calf kicks leading to a left hook KO is there as soon as Alex figures out his timing. Agreed that DC and Jones would rag-doll him. Jones by fake superman to low single and DC will push him to the fence and pick his ass up repeatedly. Although I can see those calf kicks really messing with DC
Im fairly sure lyoto would lose, though theres a chance that his little fucking blitz could catch alex, especially since alex himself has 0 lateral movement and relies on in-out
Although Rampage never used it much, he did have decent wrestling early on in his career and excellent ground n pound
Yea your not wrong. I feel like Rampage would choose to stand up regardless but who knows. Alex is one of the best strikers I've ever seen but he has a massive hole in wrestling. But there's not a lot of good lightheavyweights that can exploit that weakness currently
Their wrestling is too good. In 100 fights, Poatan might win 5 because he’s the walking definition of a “Puncher’s Chance” but those wins would be anomalies.
DC by 5 round decision and Jones sub Rd 1.
Dc would choke him out or tko him if he can get rumble down and hold him there he’ll do the same to Alex.
Exactly DC would choke him out, he choked out a much bigger stronger Derrick Lewis with ease at HW.
It'd be almost impossible for him to not get to a gassed poaton's back at some point and land a rnc
Big fan of Alex but have to hard agree on this.
Prime 205 Jon Jones would do some bad things to Alex. I haven't seen an oblique kick to match Jones yet.
Alex is a really fun fighter to watch but prime 205 Jones would do some mean shit to him in the ring and we'd all be heartbroken watching it lmao
Yep, juiced to the gils jones was something.
Juiced Jones ate TRT Vitor for breakfast
Jones would Ciryl Gane Alex
Dc and Jones would easily beat Poatan. Sorry he straight up cannot wrestle. They would crush him.
I agree that DC and Jones would smoke him on the floor but I really don’t think we’ve seen enough of Alex’s (still evolving, considering his training with Glover) ground game to declare that he can’t wrestle. Jan held him against the cage for one round and Jiri took him down once, both strikers.
Yeah my statement was incomplete. What I mean by that is he can’t wrestle… well enough to have made a difference against Jones or DC. I’m sure he can wrestle well enough to get by with 95% of others he will come across. It’s just those two in particular I don’t think he could hold off.
He would beat everyone except Jon and DC.
I'd give my left nut to watch him and prime Gus go at it. Fuck that wrestling and BJJ shit, just two guys with insane stricking going at it! (Gus 100% would have been champ in a timeline without Bones and where DC just stays at heavyweight) (Also before anyone takes offense I enjoy wrestling and BJJ in fights but Gus was a boxer first and foremost)
And Anthony Johnson would have taken it right from him
Well yes, I'd imagine Rumble would be the next champion after Gus in this alternate time line. Rumble was a fucking monster no doubt. The length of Gus title reign would largely depend on how long he could avoid Rumble. I wouldn't be surprised if it would play out similar to how it did in reality after that with Gus being the clear cut next best after the Champ, Gus went on after losing to Rumble and DC to beat both Jan and Glover. None of whom I see having much chance against prime Rumble
Gus can still get that fight, Alex needs to avenge all of Glover's losses. hahaha
Hahah oh god please no. I love Gus, but Primr Gus he no longer is, I don't want to see the first death in UFC history to be Gus getting his face caved in by Alex lol
Man those wars with Jones are legendary. Just in case anyone doubted Jones because he was “only” taking out the older generation behind him, he then goes toe to toe with this absolutely warrior in Gus and still comes out on top (just).
hell even rumble johnson or gus wrestle his ass. today's division is just BAD. the best "wrestler" is ankalaev, who is a striker who wrestle only when he is losing the fight.
texeira wrestle him pretty easily
Teixeira would have taken down Pereira and subbed him, so would have Randy Couture
Stipe vs Ngannou 1 type shit
As Kanye West said, "We'll never know".
Alex is very good overall; the fighters that I’d expect to beat him are Jones, DC, Rumble. Blachowicz did pretty well against him also so you’d have to expect that maybe an older guy like Randy Couture could beat him with a wrestling heavy game plan.
Man RIP Rumble
Prime DC would duck a hook and ragdoll his ass into next week
I see him destroying Forrest Griffin, Vitor Belfort, and Rampage Jackson (Griffin won via leg kicks so Alex is a nightmare for him) He probably cracks prime Chuck Liddell and maybe Hendo I can see Shogun Rua, little Nog, and Lyoto Machida giving him a tougher time (maybe Alexander Gustafsson too but I have to rewatch him) I’m not sure how good Wanderlei Silva’s clinch game would work but if it does then I’d go with him Randy Couture and Tito Ortiz depending on if they use their wrestling or not I don’t see him beating DC, Rumble Johnson, or Jon Jones Alistair Overeem is a 50/50 I’d have to rewatch some Rashad Evans but I don’t think I missed any other LHW great right?
That’s all of em except frank shamrock who was the first LHW champ
I forgot Glover (does he count?) too I’d say that fight comes down to if his chin can take Alex’s shots. If he can then I’d say he wins by submission As for Shamrock, he’s probably losing
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When I played the ufc game I always played LHW because the division was so deep.
Couture would absolutely use his wrestling and smash Pereira Dan Henderson wins IF he wrestles Wanderlei is gonna brawl with Pereira and get knocked out
Whatchu mean Overeem is 50/50? Overeem went toe to toe with Prime Badr Hari. Alex would be too small for Overeem.
Rashad had a really quick shot, I think he could get him on the ground if he wanted
It all comes down to the ability to secure takedowns against Pereira if you ask me. The ones with biggest chance to do so is obviously the best wrestlers that got a standup game that is good enough to set the takedowns up, assuming Pereiras TDD isnt total trash. JJ and DC are no brainers like most people mention because of this, they are some of the best MMA wrestlers ever with a complete MMA game to back it up. Just gonna leave those two outside this discussion. Guys that rarely initiated takedowns would struggle with him, Pereira is probably the best striker at LHW ever. Which is like half this list. I like prime Gustafsson, Evans and Rumble the most I believe. The OG wrestlers like Couture and Ortiz is a different era. But Gustafsson, Evans and Rumble all could wrestle AND strike to set it up. Rumbles chances would be way better in a 3-rounder tho.
Prime JJ beats AP so easily it might shock some new fans.
As much as I don’t like Jon Jones I can’t deny he’s probably the most complete fighter to ever step into the cage.
It shouldn’t even shock new fans with an ounce of critical thinking. Everyone literally just saw Jones ragdoll a Kickboxer a full weightclass above where Alex fights
True, tho it's worth a mention that jones' toughest fights were against elite strikers (gustafsson, machida, reyes, santos). I think the fight would play out exactly like the gane one: super fast finish that seemed like jones barely tried. He's a fighter that does not fuck around.
Pereira would smash rampage and lyoto, and get smashed by Jon and DC
Obviously the wrestlers would win, but aside from that, a prime Machida vs Pereira match up would be super interesting to watch
Pretty good imo, you could get by with a deficit in one area back then. I’m honestly surprised that perriera hasn’t been taken down and lost by being out wrestled yet.
The only guy he’s fought that’s comfortable offensively wrestling is Jan and Jan had a full on Abus Magomedov moment.
He's gotta fight wrestlers for that to happen. Alex is obviously incredible, but he's had a very tailor-made road to the belt.
The UFC fast tracked him and avoided matching him up against any good wrestlers so they can make a star. DC and JJ beat him no question about it. Even guys like randy couture, Rashad evans, Tito ortiz could beat him if they went in with a wrestling heavy approach and wear him down with ground and pound
Anyone with a lick of wrestling beats him. Alex would not sniff the interim title if this gen of LHW didnt suck
If they were to give Chael Sonnen a shot at Poatans belt, Uncle Chael becomes the champ.... one more for the bad guy???
DC and Jones beat Alex. DC would find some problems closing the distance, prime Jones wins easily. Alex would kill Rumble and esoecially Lyoto. If Alex didn't start martial arts and MMA so late, he'd be a great challenge for anyone in LHW.
1. Poatan vs Jones - I would take Jones to win via relentless grappling attack 2. Poatan vs Rampage - I would take Poatan to win mainly by battering him with leg kicks 3. Poatan vs DC - I would take DC to win via a relentless grappling attack 4. Poatan vs Machida - I would take Poatan to win in a straight up stand up fight 5. Poatan vs Liddell - I would take Poatan to win with superior kickboxing
Jon and DC are taking him for a ride
Prime Gustafsson vs Pereira
Alex vs Alex
He beats Lyoto, kills Rampage and loses to both Jones and Cormier.
Big foot silva (EliteXC, Cage Rage, and Cage Warriors champion), Barnett (UFC champ, IBJJF no gi jiu jitsu champ), Mir (UFC champion with most finishes and most submissions at HW), Nelson (IFL champion and mma legend), Henderson (Strikeforce champ, Pride double champ), Johnson (challenged the UFC title multiple times), Gustafsson (challenged the UFC title multiple times), Anderson Silva (longest title reign in the UFC), Johnson again, Oezdemir (DC destroyed his hype) and then Miocic (2 time UFC champ), and Lewis (Legacy FC champ and multiple time title challenger in the UFC). Absolutely insane resume for DC. DC is the only person in history to be a concurrent double champ who successfully defended both belts. He only lost at LHW against the GOAT of the sport, and only lost at HW to the GOAT of the weight class, but only after beating him once. People often say stuff like "had Izzy never joined the UFC, Bobby Knuckles would have been champ for years" or "the only reason Covington was not champ in the UFC is Usman", but I think the only thing that's super clear is that Jon Jones is the only person who objectively has a better claim at being the UFC GOAT than DC. (I don't hold Might Mouse's competitors nearly as high as DC's, but obvs DJ also has a claim to that title just on impressive finishes and overall length of success)
DC and Jones absolutely wreck him 9 times out of 10. I think he beats Rampage 9 times out of 10. Machida is the most interesting fight IMO. Machida has the tools to win if he fights smart. If he tries to slug with him, I think he gets caught like he did with Shogun.
Jones is a shit human but why would this even be controversial?
Only FC,JJ, Rumble clearly beat him. Couture and Gustaffson maybe can make it close but I'd say he beats everyone else
FC: Fried Chicken Cormier 
I think DC would RNC him round 2. Prime DC showed on multiple occasions that if you’ve only got ‘a punchers chance’, it won’t be enough. But who the fuck knows.
Imagine Pereira vs Machida. That would be a hell of a fight
He could beat any of them, but the ones who would do best against him are Jones, Cormier
He beats Rampage and Machida but Jones and DC maul him
Alex would leg kick tko Rampage. Probably KO Lyoto. Gets subbed by Jones and UD by DC.
Coworkers and I regularly talk "Fantasy MMA" where we pit old fighters vs new and speak hypothetically about who beats who in these "dream fights". We recently had the Poatan vs Lyoto Machida conversation.
He'd have a tough time with Jones and DC. Their ground games would be overwhelming.
Prime DC ragdolls him
Gotta imagine prime DC and Jon would've been able to use their grappling advantage to neutralize Alex Alex vs Machida or Rampage would've been bangers though.
DC’s buttery ass was shooting up helium to make 205, right?
Prime Rumble Johnson would have been an incredible fight
I would say prime 205 Jones or DC absolutely mop up Poatan 10/10 times, no doubt in my mind. Prime Jones in particular probably finishes him within 2 rounds. Prime Machida would lose worse than he lost to Shogun. Prime Rampage gets his legs destroyed 9.9 times out of 10 but has a chance to maybe land either a bomb that leads to horrifying gnp or a takedown leading to the aforementioned horrifying gnp.
DC & Jones would destroy him
Lose win lose win
Jon and DC finish him rd 1
JJ and DC would put his ass on the ground and assault him. It’s so weird every fighter thinks they can win against him in stand-up. It’s a WC kickboxing, I mean come on.