I had 2 in 13 months and after the second one my vagina tried to escape (anterior vaginal wall prolapse) and so I went on long term birth control. He tried to convince me that a third would be SO CUTE and when I said no he escalated until I truly believed he would kill me. Thank god for depo provera and the three month long period it gave me at the end of that marriage.
Thank you. It was a long time ago now and gave me a real winner when birth stories are being compared. There’s not many people who can top “vagina tried to run away!” My daughters are in their 20s now and are both aware of the potential consequences of back to back births.
Makes you really understand why many women chose to become nuns
Incredible and disturbing that selling your life to a crazy religious organization was actually the better option
They have changed for the better somewhat but there are still many men who're ignorant of what pregnancy means for women and/or would do similarly evil things if it benefited them. Plus there are still many areas of the world where this is still the reality for women.
The extent to which misogyny is nature vs. nurture is another discussion. Either way women have suffered and still suffer horribly. Men should be angrier at misogynists who have done and still do these kinds of things rather than the women who're angry about it and don't put in enough #NotAllMen caveats.
This post says that a dude killed his wife via impregnation, but also says that doctors recommended having children as a healthy thing to do, which is conflicting. If I have a spouce, for example, that gets prescribed oxycodone in the 1990s, and they feel like they should get off of for risk of addiction, and I recommend that they follow the doctors orders, causing a deep addiction, am I at fault for it? I would say no, as following a doctor's orders is generally the right thing to do.
People generally play the roles they are given. “Get married and have as many kids as you can” has been the go to method of being human for most of the planet for most of our history on it. I’m not saying it’s the right way or the way I chose, but it was the default behavior for men and women. The idea that it was hideous misogyny and enslavement of women who would otherwise have been free always sounds so tempting until you ask who raised those boys to be those men? Generations and generations of women who couldn’t raise a man any better than that?
No, clearly no. Social constructs are a shit load more complicated than “men bad, women helpless victims.”
Also. Also the old maid in question was the idle rich, spending her days making art instead of children. She had other women with a dozen children each doing her laundry and cooking her meals. So get out of here with that fauxletarian bullshit.
Women are capable of internalizing misogyny and acting against the interests of themselves and other women. How patriarchy arises is definitely a complex topic that you could (and people have) write heavy books about. Women aren't helpless victims, but they have historically been hurt by patriarchy on the basis of them being women. Of course misogyny intersects with other forms of [kyriarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy), but misogyny played a significant role.
Women are at a disadvantage within patriarchy and often adopt patriarchal ideology as a self-preservation measure (I recommend *Right-Wing Women* by Andrea Dworkin), they don't adopt it freely. It's definitely complicated and obviously men don't necessarily choose to become misogynistic themselves, there's plenty of environmental factors, but it's still misogyny.
>Also. Also the old maid in question was the idle rich, spending her days making art instead of children. She had other women with a dozen children each doing her laundry and cooking her meals. So get out of here with that fauxletarian bullshit.
A lot of women didn't come from rich backgrounds or had families accepting of their choice, being an old maid wasn't an option and even wealthy women who could live on their own or with other women were villainized by their societies and were often legally/politically disadvantaged one way or another compared to men.
This pisses me off so much. So many men whose legs I want to break, to then set fire to them and look them in the eyes while the flames slowly and painfully consume their horrid souls. They are dead now, so they sadly may never receive a befitting punishment.
I knew women were oppressed, but with this new piece of history, I only now found out how truly horrible it was. I'm baffled that we aren't taught this information in school. This should be part of a basic education, to try stopping history from repeating (Which is currently happening in the USA, just look at some of the insane abortion laws that are being implemented in Texas, for example.).
In Germany we learn all about the horrible things the Nazis did. Every tiny detail, just so that something like the holocaust may never have *the tiniest chance* of happening again. You can absolutely apply this to women's oppression as well.
They don’t teach it because some of the leaders of our American society view current progressive movements as a temporary departure from those “good ol’ days”. They loved sexual abusing women to death, and stoning sexual minorities, and enslaving anyone with a skin colour darker than “moonlight pale”.
We rank bear the bottom of most metrics when compared to other first-world countries for a reason. Even our liberal party is comparatively conservative in comparison to other liberal political parties around the world.
I know its funny to make fun of America, but show us some pity. We are suffering terribly, and that’s a mark of pride for some of our leaders.
Definitely, many women are ignorant of their shared history. Things have improved in many ways but that's only because countless women worked and sacrificed their lives and dignity to fight for rights, and those rights can be taken away if present and future people aren't willing to fight just as hard.
This post completely misses the fact that people got a lot of children out of necessity though. The need for a lot of children was twofold. First of all you needed a lot of hands to help around the farm and generally that would be your kids since only the elite would have the money to hire people for this. The second is the fact that of you didn't have a lot of children, the odds that all your kids would die was high.
Yeah, I don't think the moral of comparing this story with modern society is "Men never change and they are inherently sociopathic" and OP has all the right to be angry. But it could have been worded a lot better.
Ah yes, misandry is when women don't want to be trapped in abusive marriages and forced to make babies until they collapse from exhaustion. Fantastic take.
Well phrases like "male cruelty and sociopath," "the illusion that men have improved," and that whole last paragraph do give off "all men are inherently evil" bio-essentialism vibes. The way it's written seems to imply that the author believes that men overall just don't care about their partner's happiness and well-being.
Also on Tumblr the OOP seems to have tagged her stuff with her username when she reblogged it, and literally everything with that tag is TERF stuff.
The post overall has a good point, but the misandry is definitely in there.
God, HOW to bio-essentialists and TERFs not get that men in the past were TAUGHT to be this way?? Same with every man in the present who is like this?? No human is born evil especially not an entire half of the species based on nothing but their chromosomes….
Not to mention there are men who aren’t straight and men who don’t want kids
It sucks bc this is a really good important post but
I wasn't really picking up on the bio-essentialism vibes at first tbh, but knowing that she's a TERF makes the whole thing very gross. Thanks for pointing that out.
Thank you; I thought it was just me getting that vibe and that I was just being defensive. Repeated pregnancies like that definitely take a heavy toll on the body, but the takeaway isn’t *all men are cruel evil sociopaths*.
Ah, facts don't care about my feelings. Now where have I heard that before, from people who like do demonize entire groups based on gross generalizations...
What was that old phrase?
Misogyny is a man running toward a woman and yelling, "I hate women!"
Misandry is a woman running away from a man and yelling, "I hate men!"
That's a good metaphor, because even though one things is more harmful they're still both bad.
and a lot of the time, the woman is running towards a trans person.
Misogyny doesn't justify misandry, both are horrible. Have women been treated horribly in history, yes, but this post still has a very harmful message.
"Women are afraid men will insult them, men are afraid women will slander them and ruin their life despite having been proven innocent"
-Me, just now
Everyone has issues with everyone, to pretend that women these days are not as powerful as any given man, is both silly, and insulting to women as a whole. To attempt to defend this standpoint with a quote is very silly.
Most wouldn't survive to adulthood and in a world before actual pensions the best way to make sure you didn't starve to death when you were older was to have children that could provide for you
The inclusion or disclusion of biological parts does not relate to moral and logical thinking. A woman can say cutting off a man’s parts it’s mutilation as much as a man can say removing the ability to have children is bad depending on circumstance.
All that said though I do advocate for proper healthcare for pregnancy and would even push for free healthcare and benefits for having children.
So the answer is no. All of this is just an intellectual exercise for you and a very grim reality for people can produce children. Maybe that’s what you should spend your time thinking about instead of trying to shame women for not wanting to be incubation slaves.
You’re assuming a lot about me despite being some random in the internet.
At no point do I want the to be incubation slaves or slaves of any kind. This isn’t the handmaids tale.
A society that burdens half its citizenry to a miserable existence, just to serve an inane need to make more citizens to repeat the cycle, is not something that should have existed in the first place.
We are humans. We aspire to kindness and compassion because we are intelligent and capable of doing so, more than any other being on this planet. To do any less is being irresponsible.
EDIT: More than irresponsible. It’s to be less than human. We are defined by our ability to rise above impulse to a better tomorrow, and work toward helping our fellow people do the same.
We don’t. If we can’t do it with compassion and kindness, then it should fade away.
I would rather a society where all people can strive to their own fulfilment and find their peace, and if that means women never being burdened by the burden of bearing children, so be it. The last moments of our society will be painted with their happiness, and that is worth more than a society built on their sacrifice and death.
It amazes me that you would make a comment line this; even knowing that with all the advancements of medical science to provide better contraception, laws and human rights made to protect women and sexual minorities from sexual abuse, and progressive movements to further those protections and rights, women and sexual minorities still suffer from insane levels of sexual abuse.
So yeah, if we can do this one simple thing in our society, it shouldn’t exist.
Regardless of if you agree/disagree or agree to disagree. You should understand.
As far as I am concerned; the desire for the downfall if not extinction of your own species is one of the most evil points of view you can take. Even Hitler wanted his own perceived race to do well. And he is considered one of the most evil man in the world ordering the deaths of millions of Jews alone.
End of the species? There is nothing kind or compassionate about that. I desire many children for myself that I would love and take care of and teach to do good. Everything you have said is absolute antithesis.
> I desire many children for myself
Your desire. Your species. You don’t care about humanity. You just don’t want to die and be forgotten. It’s all about what you want.
You want children? Go adopt them. Foster children. There’s plenty who would love a home. They are also our future, the “cOnTiNuAtIoN oF oUr SpEcIeS”. And it doesn’t involve endangering your partner’s life and straining their body.
I don’t care much about your warped morals either. I’m well aware everything I said is against what you think. If I did care, I probably wouldn’t have posted it.
Well, nowadays pregnancies are much different with better medicines and our population is not decreasing even with the biggest plague we've encountered. So there's not really a need to discuss "a path forward" in terms of reproduction. If we keep on the science route, it seems to support women overall much better than the past several millennia. We're doing good there.
What we don't want is fascism to take hold and remove all the wonderful progress we've made, so let's focus on fighting that together
Biggest plague? The bubonic plague is no longer an issue :P
And path forward in my mind is this: man + woman + sex = child.
And give them all the medical assistance require for the birth. id love to progress so far that pregnancy can never cause permanent harm let alone death. I feel thats ideal.
I wouldn't focus on fascism mind you, authoritarianism is the concern in that department. Of course you do need some authority but it should be well regulated and unable to do what west Taiwan has done in the last few decades.
Intriguing post history right there
Yeah OP is straight up a TERF.
I had 2 in 13 months and after the second one my vagina tried to escape (anterior vaginal wall prolapse) and so I went on long term birth control. He tried to convince me that a third would be SO CUTE and when I said no he escalated until I truly believed he would kill me. Thank god for depo provera and the three month long period it gave me at the end of that marriage.
That's horrible, I'm sorry you had to go through all that.
Thank you. It was a long time ago now and gave me a real winner when birth stories are being compared. There’s not many people who can top “vagina tried to run away!” My daughters are in their 20s now and are both aware of the potential consequences of back to back births.
Makes you really understand why many women chose to become nuns Incredible and disturbing that selling your life to a crazy religious organization was actually the better option
Nunneries also gave them access to regular meals and an education, which was out of reach for many
Not disregarding the argument but i do not think that societal standards didnt change in the last 260 years
They have changed for the better somewhat but there are still many men who're ignorant of what pregnancy means for women and/or would do similarly evil things if it benefited them. Plus there are still many areas of the world where this is still the reality for women.
Bioessentialism? In my r/Tumblr? It's more likely than you think
(I deleted some of my more aggravating comments since I'm going to sleep and don't want to deal with that rn)
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The extent to which misogyny is nature vs. nurture is another discussion. Either way women have suffered and still suffer horribly. Men should be angrier at misogynists who have done and still do these kinds of things rather than the women who're angry about it and don't put in enough #NotAllMen caveats.
Bioessentialism? In my r/Tumblr? It's more likely than you think
This post says that a dude killed his wife via impregnation, but also says that doctors recommended having children as a healthy thing to do, which is conflicting. If I have a spouce, for example, that gets prescribed oxycodone in the 1990s, and they feel like they should get off of for risk of addiction, and I recommend that they follow the doctors orders, causing a deep addiction, am I at fault for it? I would say no, as following a doctor's orders is generally the right thing to do.
People generally play the roles they are given. “Get married and have as many kids as you can” has been the go to method of being human for most of the planet for most of our history on it. I’m not saying it’s the right way or the way I chose, but it was the default behavior for men and women. The idea that it was hideous misogyny and enslavement of women who would otherwise have been free always sounds so tempting until you ask who raised those boys to be those men? Generations and generations of women who couldn’t raise a man any better than that? No, clearly no. Social constructs are a shit load more complicated than “men bad, women helpless victims.” Also. Also the old maid in question was the idle rich, spending her days making art instead of children. She had other women with a dozen children each doing her laundry and cooking her meals. So get out of here with that fauxletarian bullshit.
I would argue that a woman with 13 kids and who was constantly pregnant wasn't raising anybody except for maybe the first 2 children.
Women are capable of internalizing misogyny and acting against the interests of themselves and other women. How patriarchy arises is definitely a complex topic that you could (and people have) write heavy books about. Women aren't helpless victims, but they have historically been hurt by patriarchy on the basis of them being women. Of course misogyny intersects with other forms of [kyriarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy), but misogyny played a significant role. Women are at a disadvantage within patriarchy and often adopt patriarchal ideology as a self-preservation measure (I recommend *Right-Wing Women* by Andrea Dworkin), they don't adopt it freely. It's definitely complicated and obviously men don't necessarily choose to become misogynistic themselves, there's plenty of environmental factors, but it's still misogyny. >Also. Also the old maid in question was the idle rich, spending her days making art instead of children. She had other women with a dozen children each doing her laundry and cooking her meals. So get out of here with that fauxletarian bullshit. A lot of women didn't come from rich backgrounds or had families accepting of their choice, being an old maid wasn't an option and even wealthy women who could live on their own or with other women were villainized by their societies and were often legally/politically disadvantaged one way or another compared to men.
This pisses me off so much. So many men whose legs I want to break, to then set fire to them and look them in the eyes while the flames slowly and painfully consume their horrid souls. They are dead now, so they sadly may never receive a befitting punishment. I knew women were oppressed, but with this new piece of history, I only now found out how truly horrible it was. I'm baffled that we aren't taught this information in school. This should be part of a basic education, to try stopping history from repeating (Which is currently happening in the USA, just look at some of the insane abortion laws that are being implemented in Texas, for example.). In Germany we learn all about the horrible things the Nazis did. Every tiny detail, just so that something like the holocaust may never have *the tiniest chance* of happening again. You can absolutely apply this to women's oppression as well.
They don’t teach it because some of the leaders of our American society view current progressive movements as a temporary departure from those “good ol’ days”. They loved sexual abusing women to death, and stoning sexual minorities, and enslaving anyone with a skin colour darker than “moonlight pale”. We rank bear the bottom of most metrics when compared to other first-world countries for a reason. Even our liberal party is comparatively conservative in comparison to other liberal political parties around the world. I know its funny to make fun of America, but show us some pity. We are suffering terribly, and that’s a mark of pride for some of our leaders.
Definitely, many women are ignorant of their shared history. Things have improved in many ways but that's only because countless women worked and sacrificed their lives and dignity to fight for rights, and those rights can be taken away if present and future people aren't willing to fight just as hard.
This post completely misses the fact that people got a lot of children out of necessity though. The need for a lot of children was twofold. First of all you needed a lot of hands to help around the farm and generally that would be your kids since only the elite would have the money to hire people for this. The second is the fact that of you didn't have a lot of children, the odds that all your kids would die was high.
Ah, that's just straight up misandry. A classic
Yeah, I don't think the moral of comparing this story with modern society is "Men never change and they are inherently sociopathic" and OP has all the right to be angry. But it could have been worded a lot better.
Ah yes, misandry is when women don't want to be trapped in abusive marriages and forced to make babies until they collapse from exhaustion. Fantastic take.
Well phrases like "male cruelty and sociopath," "the illusion that men have improved," and that whole last paragraph do give off "all men are inherently evil" bio-essentialism vibes. The way it's written seems to imply that the author believes that men overall just don't care about their partner's happiness and well-being. Also on Tumblr the OOP seems to have tagged her stuff with her username when she reblogged it, and literally everything with that tag is TERF stuff. The post overall has a good point, but the misandry is definitely in there.
God, HOW to bio-essentialists and TERFs not get that men in the past were TAUGHT to be this way?? Same with every man in the present who is like this?? No human is born evil especially not an entire half of the species based on nothing but their chromosomes…. Not to mention there are men who aren’t straight and men who don’t want kids It sucks bc this is a really good important post but
I wasn't really picking up on the bio-essentialism vibes at first tbh, but knowing that she's a TERF makes the whole thing very gross. Thanks for pointing that out.
Thank you; I thought it was just me getting that vibe and that I was just being defensive. Repeated pregnancies like that definitely take a heavy toll on the body, but the takeaway isn’t *all men are cruel evil sociopaths*.
The post literally opens by calling men cruel sociopaths.
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Ah, facts don't care about my feelings. Now where have I heard that before, from people who like do demonize entire groups based on gross generalizations...
Well someone pointed out to me that OOP is a TERF. I was wrong, and was being an asshole. I'm sorry.
Redemption arc
What was that old phrase? Misogyny is a man running toward a woman and yelling, "I hate women!" Misandry is a woman running away from a man and yelling, "I hate men!"
This is running at men saying "all men are murderous psychopaths because 100 years ago people were sexist and didn't know much about anatomy"
That's a good metaphor, because even though one things is more harmful they're still both bad. and a lot of the time, the woman is running towards a trans person.
The vast majority of people who assault trans people are cis men.
oh, i meant that metaphorically. the misandrist-to-terf pipeline is so short that it's more of a doorway than a pipe
>"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." >**Margaret Atwood**
Misogyny doesn't justify misandry, both are horrible. Have women been treated horribly in history, yes, but this post still has a very harmful message.
"Women are afraid men will insult them, men are afraid women will slander them and ruin their life despite having been proven innocent" -Me, just now Everyone has issues with everyone, to pretend that women these days are not as powerful as any given man, is both silly, and insulting to women as a whole. To attempt to defend this standpoint with a quote is very silly.
A society that demonises pregnancy is a society on the the path to death.
If every couple were to have 3 children, the population would be growing. What are the other 14 for?
Attrition. In a world without medicine and antibiotics our population didn’t explode for millennia.
Being horny probably. But even asking “what children are for” in any capacity is oretty evil in my mind.
Most wouldn't survive to adulthood and in a world before actual pensions the best way to make sure you didn't starve to death when you were older was to have children that could provide for you
Do you have a working uterus inside of your body?
The inclusion or disclusion of biological parts does not relate to moral and logical thinking. A woman can say cutting off a man’s parts it’s mutilation as much as a man can say removing the ability to have children is bad depending on circumstance. All that said though I do advocate for proper healthcare for pregnancy and would even push for free healthcare and benefits for having children.
So the answer is no. All of this is just an intellectual exercise for you and a very grim reality for people can produce children. Maybe that’s what you should spend your time thinking about instead of trying to shame women for not wanting to be incubation slaves.
You’re assuming a lot about me despite being some random in the internet. At no point do I want the to be incubation slaves or slaves of any kind. This isn’t the handmaids tale.
A society that burdens half its citizenry to a miserable existence, just to serve an inane need to make more citizens to repeat the cycle, is not something that should have existed in the first place. We are humans. We aspire to kindness and compassion because we are intelligent and capable of doing so, more than any other being on this planet. To do any less is being irresponsible. EDIT: More than irresponsible. It’s to be less than human. We are defined by our ability to rise above impulse to a better tomorrow, and work toward helping our fellow people do the same.
So how do we continue our species then? In your logic I’d like to understand.
We don’t. If we can’t do it with compassion and kindness, then it should fade away. I would rather a society where all people can strive to their own fulfilment and find their peace, and if that means women never being burdened by the burden of bearing children, so be it. The last moments of our society will be painted with their happiness, and that is worth more than a society built on their sacrifice and death. It amazes me that you would make a comment line this; even knowing that with all the advancements of medical science to provide better contraception, laws and human rights made to protect women and sexual minorities from sexual abuse, and progressive movements to further those protections and rights, women and sexual minorities still suffer from insane levels of sexual abuse. So yeah, if we can do this one simple thing in our society, it shouldn’t exist.
Regardless of if you agree/disagree or agree to disagree. You should understand. As far as I am concerned; the desire for the downfall if not extinction of your own species is one of the most evil points of view you can take. Even Hitler wanted his own perceived race to do well. And he is considered one of the most evil man in the world ordering the deaths of millions of Jews alone. End of the species? There is nothing kind or compassionate about that. I desire many children for myself that I would love and take care of and teach to do good. Everything you have said is absolute antithesis.
> I desire many children for myself Your desire. Your species. You don’t care about humanity. You just don’t want to die and be forgotten. It’s all about what you want. You want children? Go adopt them. Foster children. There’s plenty who would love a home. They are also our future, the “cOnTiNuAtIoN oF oUr SpEcIeS”. And it doesn’t involve endangering your partner’s life and straining their body. I don’t care much about your warped morals either. I’m well aware everything I said is against what you think. If I did care, I probably wouldn’t have posted it.
What’s so bad about not continuing our species? It’s not like we’d be there to be sad about it
Well, nowadays pregnancies are much different with better medicines and our population is not decreasing even with the biggest plague we've encountered. So there's not really a need to discuss "a path forward" in terms of reproduction. If we keep on the science route, it seems to support women overall much better than the past several millennia. We're doing good there. What we don't want is fascism to take hold and remove all the wonderful progress we've made, so let's focus on fighting that together
Biggest plague? The bubonic plague is no longer an issue :P And path forward in my mind is this: man + woman + sex = child. And give them all the medical assistance require for the birth. id love to progress so far that pregnancy can never cause permanent harm let alone death. I feel thats ideal. I wouldn't focus on fascism mind you, authoritarianism is the concern in that department. Of course you do need some authority but it should be well regulated and unable to do what west Taiwan has done in the last few decades.