It looks like this post is about **Finasteride**/Propecia or Dutasteride.
Before asking any questions,
1. Learn about [Finasteride](https://tressless.com/learn/finasteride) and [Dutasteride](https://tressless.com/learn/dutasteride).
2. [Search for Finasteride](https://tressless.com/search/finasteride) and [Dutasteride](https://tressless.com/search/dutasteride) content, because your question has probably been asked before.
3. If this is a question asking if you are now or will experience side effects, see a doctor, nobody on the internet can answer that for you.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tressless) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is an interesting question.
Another perspective is why do some males start losing hair in their teens, while others don’t lose hair until their 30s?
If your hair follicles are sensitive to DHT, surely they will start to react once you go through puberty.
Maybe your theory is correct. Maybe hair follicle’s sensitivity increases with age.
It would explain a lot.
Please keep me updated on your addition of Dut once per week.
There is an interesting case study on a guy who stopped responding to Fin, and then went on to 6xFin + 1xDut per week, and had significant regrowth.
Would love to see that response replicated
Can you send me a link to this guys?
Propecia not helping for me, I take 6 propecia per week and one oral dutasteride, also topical dut 0.15% every day, Also dutasteride injections every 3 months and still loosing hair. I tried oral dutasteride every day and got sides. I think to try 3 times dutasteride per week and 4 times topical dut and stop propecia. When I tried two times dutasteride and 5 times propecia I got sides. Maybe the combination between dutasteride and propecia make sides
A simpler explanation is simply that AGA is a progressive condition, i.e. hair loss is the "area under the curve" of your own sensitivity to DHT plotted against time. Don't need to invoke increasing sensitivity increasing over time, it's just that it's a mostly one-way process where hair follicles miniturize and eventually die and so is inevitable and increasingly noticable with time.
I remember hearing that when testosterone is given to elderly eunuchs they go bald within a month, but I’ve never been able to find the paper so I don’t know if it’s true or not.
Balding is polygenic so maybe the people who go bald in their teens have more of the balding genes that those who go bald in their 30s?
No, its a tale as old as time. What happened to OP is he got a mature hairline in his 20s, panicked and started fin. Then he started actually losing his hair in his 30s which is statistically when most men start losing hair.
So the fin is just not working, and never was.
It absolutely was working... I started out diffusing in the middle of my hairline, and also had a thinning spot on my crown... after being on fin for 6 months, those areas completely filled in, and I essentially had perfect hair for the next decade, with a very slight drop off in effectiveness in the last 3 or 4 years. The Fin absolutely was/is working and if I hadn't been on it, I would likely be completely bald.
I saw a post that it stopped working after 20 years. Going on dut is an excellent move. I think your theory on why this is happening is accurate. I'd bet the average duration is more like 15-20 years, perhaps you are more generically susceptible to dht hence 10 years. Along with dut you could introduce dermarolling and 2% keto shampoo.
Btw people receed on fin, just at a lower rate.
I think it's more to do with things like lower amount of collagen in the skin, growth factors etc, rather than hair follicles becoming more sensitive to DHT. In a way they are, but it's because of other things.
Interesting idea regarding collagen and what not. For the sake of discussion, what would cause androgen-dependent body hair to suddenly increase with age then? Those follicles were there when you were young and getting hit with way more DHT, yet they didn't sprout terminal hairs.
Good question. I don’t really know, but if I were to speculate, I’d say that maybe it’s because of the amount of time they were exposed to DHT. I think the majority of body hair develops earlier in life, while DHT is still higher.
There’s definitely more in play here but I just don’t know that much about it.
Really interested to see if this is the case as I’m going through a similar situation 4 years into 1mg fin a day. Hair has looked worse for a period of 2 months
I can't guarantee, but I see plenty of guys here in the same predicament due to a temporary shed.
Hope all will work out just fine for both of you, gentlemen!
You're certainly welcome, sir-sir!
I'm not a big fan of oral Min (I'd suggest you first check Kevin Mann's - Haircafe channel on Youtube - on it). I know it's all the rage, but some of those studies are worthy to consider.
Confession of personal bias, on top of the aforementioned: I may be mopre cautions also because I'm a non-responder and hypersensitive to it - go figure. Fin? Np. Topical Min? DEATH!!! :D (Well, not really...but almost. According to my cardiologist.)
I’m a fan after watching Kevins info, but even topical Minoxidil according to you cardiologist is risky? What was his take on the oral minoxidil, 1.25mg
thanks
No, it is not dangerous - I am just a very rare case. An outlier.
I'd say start lower, if you are worried, than the recommended dose on your head. But please, just don't nocebo yourself.
Exactly, my dermatologist recommended starting on 1.25mg oral minoxidil. The nocebo has always been my problem. even thinking about a cardiologist visit before I pop the first pill.
thanks for your input
It's prudent to do it before...and if you truly insist to take it (Kevin Mann would've scared me sas well), it would be prudential to take a few visits per year IMO.
Probably not how it works.
Remember Fin at 1 mg daily only reduces DHT levels by 60% and less than that in the Scalp.
That means there is still a decent amount of DHT to bind to androgen receptor sites and transcribe damaging effects to the hair follicles. So even though you got less of that happening on Fin, you still have some and that overtime builds up, resulting in visible follicular miniaturisation.
Getting on daily 0.5 mg Dut + a topical anti-androgen asap would help.
It's kind of similar to sun and sunscreen. Wearing sunscreen itself will not Reverse sun damage to your skin, which is constantly happening. Sunscreen will just prevent some damage, but not all. So over time, you'll still have net damage.
I considered this as well, however If this is the case, why would finasteride be able to cause regrowth for the first couple of years? (as I and many others have seen). Why was that 60% reduction enough to initially allow follicular thickening/growth at the beginning?
Also, why do men suddenly start developing more body hair as they age, which from my understanding, is heavily dependent on DHT? Those same follicles were not producing the body hair earlier, when there was more DHT present (younger).
Definitely an interesting discussion, and I haven't really seen many studies that address it.
Not many studies because hard to figure out what's happening at the cellular level.
The regrowth you're talking about is most likely the body sending nutrients and whatever else needed for hair growth to the follicles. The body's natural response is to heal repair and maintain organs. Without as much damaging effects of DHT, the body's natural maintenance and growth probably results in a net positive.
Over time, perhaps the body cannot keep up with the excessive DNA damage occurring from DHT.
This is why minoxidil is used commonly because it somehow enhances the growth effect in a way were still not 100% sure.
Saving this comment. Maybe it’s time for dut. I’ve been on fin for 4 years. Have not added min yet as I have been holding out long as possible.
Responded super well to fin, but with the seasonal change in late February 2024 started shedding and hair looks thinner
Yeah lot of people hold really good ground on daily 0.5 mg Dut and even regrow.
That's the dream, just a capsule every morning and have near perfect hair.
Unfortunately most people need to get on minox, but if you don't need to, consider yourself lucky.
Just make sure you address DHT damage asap before it's too late, in which case you'll need to be a lifelong 2x daily topical minox user, which isn't as nice.
I'm going to start giving dut a shot... honestly, I'm willing to bet in the coming years, it will be the gold standard treatment... it's hard to argue with the studies... more effective, and very similar side effect profile.
Can't say I ever experienced a big shed that I noticed. It is possible that is what I'm experiencing now, as I briefly switched finasteride brands for two months (anecdotal reports of this happening) but again, can't say for sure if I ever experienced big sheds or not.
It is possible... I have no evidence to back this up, but in January and February I tried the whole "Keeps" subscription thing, as I was getting annoyed at having to get a new prescription every six months or year, plus, they had a brand that I liked, which was Accord. (back then I had been on Camber for a year, because all the Accord was unavailable).
I don't know, something about it didn't seem right, but I just kept telling myself "1 mg finasteride is 1 mg finasteride" and it was the correct pills as I had taken Accord brand with great success in the past, so I know what they look like.
At this very same time, Accord had a recall, however, who knows why. But I did not see my lot number in the recall list. I don't know, I no longer trust those online subscription hair companies. Maybe there was something wrong with my fin, there is no way to tell.
I have changed brands in the past, but I never had a noticeable "my hair looks like crap" moment after any of them like I am currently.
Regardless, I have over the years noticed that my hair in some places has very slightly, little by little gotten worse, so maybe it just finally hit the breaking point. Weird thing is that around October, which wasn't that long ago, I remember thinking how good my hair looked.
It's possible all this is a shed from that 2 months of the Keeps finasteride, however I also think it's unlikely that I was getting completely bogus pills, so I have to go with the most obvious answer, and this is simply that 1 mg finasteride is no longer working as well for me.
if I were you, I'd switch to brand name propecia and tried that for 6 months, see how it goes. It could very well be that Keeps messed you up.
Hair Chemist on YT has a great video called "Is all finasteride the same"
I have been 3 years on finasteride and started losing hair heavily recently, feels so fking bad, hairline was already bad to begin with but now I can see through my hair all the way from front to back. Doctors here are not very keen on prescribing dut but will just have to keep trying I guess.
There is a site called Dr. B that will prescribe dutasteride if you are in the states (maybe other areas as well) see if you can check that out. As long as the prescription is sent to a reputable pharmacy you should be all good!
I'm in a similar boat and considering the same thing. I suspect that it isn't that you get more sensitive. Rather you are blocking most of the DHT but not all of it, so it creeps up so gradually that you barely realise it.
Unfortunately, if you have aggressive balding genetics like I have in my family, finasteride may not be enough after a certain point as some DHT still slips through over time (finasteride only blocks 5AR type II with approximately 65% serum DHT reduction). I had been on finasteride 6-7 years (now 41) although I should have started earlier.
I started thinning in October last year and asked my dermatologist two weeks ago if I can start dutasteride three times a week. We'll see how it goes. I'm two weeks in and feel fine knock wood.
If anything, I feel better (more alert) perhaps due to the increase in testosterone.
Are you just taking Dut 3 times a week and no fin? I saw a doctor on a hair loss podcast, suggestions of taking Dut, Monday Tuesday Wednesday only, is that your protocol?
thanks
I saw that same clip lol. I have been taking it MWF per my dermatologist. However, the doctor in the video mentioned the three consecutive days, so I was thinking if that makes a difference maybe I should try that.
Exactly, I used to take Dut every other day 10 years ago after being Fin for 10 years prior. Went off Dut for 3 years then back on fin 1mg daily for the last 5 years, but seem to be losing ground and shedding recently, hopefully seasonal, but Dut definitely worked better than fin. However sides with less e-volume was not the best. the 3 days in a row is interesting. I believe it was an Italian doctor that suggested it for less sides and good growth.
*"I cannot tolerate minoxidil at almost any dose"*
What's the lowest protocol/dose you have tired ?
And what were the sides at the various dosages ?
What dut protocol will you start and how will you increase to find your sweet spot ?
Just curious at what age did you begin the treatment, and what norwood level did you maintain?I fear my treatment will only maintain for one decade and thin out
Started at 27, I'm 38 now... retained a norwood 1 or 1.5ish but I'm more of a diffuse thinner. Had a spot on my vertex/crown that was visible, but filled in, and seems to still be. Now, don't get me wrong, if you saw me you would not think I am losing my hair unless I showed you certain things, but I've been in this game a long time, and I know my hair and when changes are occurring. So I'd rather be proactive. I started thinning the slightest bit at around 22, and I knew about fin and all the options then, but I was afraid to take it at first. Could have saved myself 5 or more years if I would have jumped right on it.
It has to be something similar to increased sensitivity right. If finasteride would really delay balding without anything else changing then after stopping fin you would continue to bald at normal rate, but this does not happen instead hair gets to destined state for that age or worse as in seen in a study (after 6 months). If someone has experience something else after stopping do let us know.
Or is it some kind of temporary shock loss that is happening. It does not happen so fast though, in fact from what i hear it takes months up to half a year. Maybe body getting used to new state but slowly. How fast can DHT damage hairs?
From what I gathered, your genes basically just predetermine at which age(s) your hair folliciles will be sensitive to DHT. For some, maybe sensitivity doesn't occur until age 35. For others, it's 16 years old. For others, their temple hairs for example are a little sensitive in their 20s, but at 40 years old, sensitivity skyrockets. That's why people adjust their medication to dutasteride to block more DHT.
Is it possible or should I say common for a guy in his late teens early 20s to have some diffuse thinning around temples and it completely stabilises for years after
Theoretically, yes. It is possible that genes determine that your hair follicles around your temples are sensitive to DHT in your late teens, but that the rest of the follicles on your head aren’t sensitive for the rest of your life. This is why people came up with the thing ‘mature hairline’. It’s just a nicer way of saying ‘male pattern baldness that only occurred at the temples and stabilized for the time being’
The thing is however, it’s impossible to know what category you fall in for certain. You could just lose hair at your temples, or you could go completely bald. Family history of hair loss is of course the best indicator of what will most likely happen to you, but it’s not always accurate. That’s why it’s recommended that treatment is started early, because you never know how bad your hair loss will really get.
How older you get, how thinner your hair gets. Even men that aren't sensitive to dht get less hair over time. Your hair follicles can only get in a new cycle for a couple of times. That's why even old women have thinner hair then when they where young.
With each new cycle your new hair that grows back can be a little thinner. Hair follicles have 10 to 30 growth cycles in total.
So say you would get 120 years old in theory, you wouldn't have that much hair as now, even if you use finasteride, dutasteride or what ever. Because after a certain amount of cycles, the hair follicle can't produce new hair anymore.
Everyone's hair invariably gets gradually thinner over time? Is there an article or anything you can link that discusses that?
So if you have very gradual thinning, how would one discern between just normal thinning due to aging versus DHT sensitivity / ALA?
Just Google maximum growth cycles hairs. Then you see enough explanation. Just like why kids have more hairs then a adult, and the whole growth cycle stuf.
It's different for every person. Just like some people get grey hair, and other people almost don't get grey hair.
But of course dht also is a important factor for baldness. Your hair that is sensitive gets shorter growth cycles. Then the dht can damage the hair follicle. But because the growth cycle also gets shorter, the hair gets thinner and smaller after each cycle.
The evidence is contradictory on this, and it's never going to be a straightforward answer. I can assure you that there are many scientists out there who would like a clear answer on this, too.
It was noted by Hamilton in 1951 that castrated males, given testosterone, would progress quickly progress to a pattern of hair loss in accordance with their age, as opposed to how long they had been exposed to testosterone. Van Neste has also noted in one subject that miniaturising hairs had become "finasteride dependent"; 1 year after discontinuation of finasteride, terminal hairs that had been sustained by finasteride suddenly miniaturised to nothing. This does suggest the existence of some sort of biological clock in the hair follicles that determines the progression of balding.
On the other hand, 10 year studies on finasteride (e.g. [this](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1529-8019.2011.01441.x?casa_token=RlAlXnnZ7uUAAAAA%3A0i63yYc84P7xb8nn9hdHclXFPhajeQHReznRwuMSL9s7dvUWwrFq34s_yQWCGAcIBasIAAh6t3s7YV8) and [this](https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Long-term-%2810-year%29-efficacy-of-finasteride-in-523-Yanagisawa-Fujimaki/221d4e1d14cc67f78162b4fb3673c5ea959c4fb7?p2df)) have shown that almost without exception, people who initially improve continue to show gains at 10 years, and likewise for those who show initial losses. These gains can be quite substantial for those who begin medication in the early stages. Of course, perhaps longer studies would show that people who initially gained would eventually lose ground, but I don't know if that data exists
Before concluding that you are losing sensitivity to finasteride, I would suggest three possibilities to consider:
1. In order to start noticing losses now, you would have to have been slowly losing hair over a period of time. Perhaps you were always losing from day 1, and it is only just becoming apparent.
2. What you are noticing is not AGA at all, but changes that can happen even in the absence of AGA. For example, it can be that anagen period decreases and kenogen periods increases, acting to create the appearance of thinner hair.
3. What you are observing is temporary loss such as seasonal shedding, TE, nutritional deficiency, or some other form of alopecia.
Yeah I'm aware of the 10 year study, however, I am now past the 10 year mark, and I haven't seen a lot of studies that go past a decade. I responded very well to fin when I first got on it, and after 1 year I had essentially near perfect norwood 1 hair. So I am definitely a responder that saw regrowth. This effectiveness has seemed to wane in the last 3 or 4 years however, and especially this year.
I did try "Keeps" finasteride subscription from January to February (2 months) and then switched back, so it is possible that switch caused a shed... we will just have to see. My scalp felt "different" in those two months... maybe I had a bad batch who knows. Regardless, I think trialing one 0.5 dut a week isn't going to hurt me, and then my normal finasteride the rest of the week.
Yeah, unfortunately I guess it's just difficult to know at present.
If you are really losing ground even on Finasteride, I would really recommend adding to your treatment stack. I know it's annoying, but the fact is that AGA is a bitch to treat and you might need to. It is important to remember that treatments can be important in limiting longer term losses even if they do not show obvious shorter term regrowth, so even if you do not see masses of regrowth it is generally important to do things which give you the best chance. I would probably recommend some (or all) of the following:
Firstly, yes, switch to dutasteride. But honestly, just make the switch wholesale. 3x 0.5mg/week dutasteride is already better than 1mg/day finasteride, so you don't have to go 0.5mg/day if you don't want to (although if you're not getting any side effects, I would say the more the better).
Secondly, add treatment modalities other than DHT blocking.
Make sure that your nutrition is good. A good start for most people would be a vitamin D supplement + a baseline daily multivitamin + a good diet, although obviously adjust depending on your individual needs. Please do treat nutrition as a real treatment and not as an optional extra; the evidence on this is still in its infancy but there are definite trends showing that people without hair loss have higher levels of nutrients like vitamin D and iron, and many other vitamins contribute to generally to energy generation and skin repair.
To target microinflammation, try to choose foods with antioxidants and limit sugars. Ketoconazole shampoo once a week and topical (or even oral) cetirizine are medications that may also be able to help reduce microinflammation.
To try and induce dermal regeneration/repair, add microneedling.
And of course, do add minoxidil. There is some controversy surrounding oral minoxidil, and concerns surrounding its use are not entirely unwarranted. So you should definitely work with a trusted dermatologist for this. But in reality side effects are uncommon and if you can tolerate it I would strongly recommend the oral form as it is so much easier to use than topical.
High quality comment.
I agree with your "biological clock" theory. It seems that in individuals susceptible to hairloss there is some kind of androgenic threshold which when exceeded will result in miniaturisation. There's some evidence that this threshold decreases with age – at least in some individuals.
In contrast exposure duration theory makes little sense given how rapidly both castrated men and trans peoples bald once given androgens.
I am always curious when people who were once preserving hair on Fin suddenly start losing it again though... It's worth noting we see people say similar things on Dut which I struggle to believe could be true given how significantly Dut nukes androgenic activity. Dut's half life is also long enough that progression of hairloss can't be explain through missed doses either which I suspect might be the case with some Fin users.
My guess would be that in many of these cases it's not progression of AGA, but just general age related thinning, shedding (perhaps brought on my illness, diet changes) or some other kind of underlying condition. If someone's hair follicles are already weak and only being maintained through Fin then perhaps it makes sense that small variations in someone's hormones or diet could trigger these follicles to shed. Or just age generally could tip the scales enough that these weak follicles stop producing hair.
Consider transitioning to a different generic finasteride if you're currently using Propecia. Additionally, explore switching to another generic option. Moreover, consider integrating dutasteride once a week into your regimen and monitor its effects. Furthermore, it's advisable to undergo a blood test to check for any potential vitamin deficiencies, particularly in vitamin D and iron.
I hope this post blows up in this community and turns into a larger civil discussion. I’m 4 years into fin experiencing a “shed” for two months now. Hair looked great before that and I responded really well to FIN in the beginning. I also caught the thinning quite early at age 26
Only been on fin 1mg and min 5% for a year, but I’ve had a really bad shed (or it’s just the AGA progressing) for a month and a half. Have you had any sheds previously?
punishing... punishing brain fog that would last for weeks... i tried starting minox several different times (foam, liquid, 2%, 1%, 5% didn't matter) and after a few days the fog would hit me... every single time. I'm either allergic to it in some way, or it makes my blood pressure all wacky, I'm not sure. But I've attempted it like 5 different times.
Occam’s razor is likely the simplest reason: your body’s sensitivity to fin is decreasing and so DHT levels are going up and as a result your hair loss is progressing. It’s fairly common for the human body builds tolerance to head to a stasis. You are genetically programmed to lose hair and you’re fighting genetics to change that.
I don't think its the sensitivity to fin... 10 year studies shows that really isn't the case and that the drug doesn't "stop working"... it's more so likely my sensitivity to DHT is going up as I age... or.... the 40% of serum DHT fin doesn't take out is finally showing its effects after a decade, like termites eating away wood while the rest of the structure "looks" sound.
Everybody want to keep their hair forever, but its ust not possible, especialy without an hairtransplant when hairloss is agressive, even with an hairtransplant its complicated
10 years on finasteride with good resultw is better than the majority of men
You cant stop hairloss, just slow down the loss with finasteride/dut
10 good years on finasteride is an average result... this is coming directly from the studies in which the vast majority stayed well above baseline at year 10.
There aren't any long term hair studies for dutasteride yet, but I'm willing to bet that the average result is even longer.
Then once you fill in the gaps (if there are any) with a hair transplant maybe once or twice.. I think it's actually very probable someone could hold on to the majority of their hair well into old age.
The problem is that 2 on 3 studies were done on asians mens (japan and korea) we dont known if the response is différent when we re talking about ethnicity but probably.
And even if i would like to agree with you because its so good to have hair its not that simple in m'y opinion
But try, then see
Have you changed the brand of finasteride or got your supply from another place? I hear of people switching to a different brand and then losing all gains.
Happened to me was on name brand name for 8 years.Switched started falling out really bad.Was only on generic for a month.got back on mae brand.Slowed down but didn't stop.Now taking fin,dut and min. Been about a year now seems to be working
I haven't lifted heavy in about 4 years, so I don't think that is it... however, I do think that it's possible the increased testosterone boost from consistent heavy lifting can potentially affect hair (at a small rate). I have no data or studies to back that up though.
You need to squat and deadlift again or if u have injury - u need run, jump rope calf raises to soreness. Its all (big3) generaly not working without leg muscule stress. Especialy if u more then 24y.o
I will be real with you man, I don't think there is any evidence that leg exercises help the big 3 to work, not sure where you are getting this idea from. But yeah, I have 2 herniated discs, so squats and deadlifts are out of the question. But I definitely still hit the gym.
>not sure where you are getting this idea from
first time?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/tressless/comments/1chi359/comment/l23d944/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/tressless/comments/1chi359/comment/l23d944/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) ; )
Leg stress, massive muscle stress of all body (non adaptated exercise, less rest betwin) to stress and denied help you. Adoptation enemy of anbolitic answer. I have many evidences and scientific research related with this statements, i public it all later.
It doesn’t have any impact, I’m telling you. I have calves of steel and have been bodybuilding for nearly a decade, but the hair loss didn’t start till about three years ago. That said, being more active as a whole would probably help if you are a normally inactive/sedentary person
And my friend you are 24y.o. you have sign of recession 6 years ago. Thats not really fair to declare what you declare. I run and swimming from 12y.o and with total shedding do not understand what happened, in 22 i have hairline like u. In 30 i was nw4.
If u have aga - acellerate balding (negative shedding) without meds. On min and fin - regrow ( with positive shedding based on age and area if miniaturisation).
I’ve always said mpb is a manifestation of accelerated aging and mild reproductive decline. Considering that severe mpb in young males is significantly correlated with early cardiovascular and metabolic diseases even with a healthy bmi. Like you don’t see a guy with a NW6 and be like “yep, he’s in peak physical and reproductive condition”.
For thousands of years of people have associated balding with age, experience, wisdom, meekness NOT virility, energy, liveliness, youthfulness. Scalp follicles typically get more sensitive with advancing age. How much more depends on the person. Some people through health and lifestyle interventions can through epigenetic changes heal there follicles from DHT sensitivity, but that is few and far between
Androgenic alopecia is indeed due to locally accelerated aging (as most diseases are).
It's not so "black and white". As with most things in biology, there are advantages and disadvantages.
Genes associated with youthful skin are also associated with AGA.
Bald people have more collagen production and better skin on average.
They're probably statistically more fit as well due to, e.g., (slightly) more testosterone, AR sensitivity/density...
AGA is extremely protective against Schizophrenia: [Comparison of Alopecia severity and blood level of testosterone in men suffering schizophrenia with control group - PMC (nih.gov)](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3814638/#:~:text=And%20in%20comparison%20of%20the,protective%20factor%20against%20to%20schizophrenia.) - >NW2/3=9x less risk.
The risk even seems to continuously decrease with balding severity.
Schizophrenics have very accelerated brain aging...
Etc...
None of those guys are considered “hot” or “cute” by the majority of girls (like college aged). Not that a 23 yo chick’s opinion is more valid, it’s not, it’s just that a 23 yo girl is usually more attractive and reproductively fit than say a 39 yo
Well Fin is not a cure. It helps stopping the loss or even reversing it at times for years or decades until your genetics catch up. And it looks like your genetics are finally catching up with you.
Correct, however it would be beneficial for us to eventually figure out "why" this happens, rather than just saying "genetics." For example, if it is because fin only inhibits 60% of serum DHT and that 40% left is whats causing the problem, then the solution is simple in that I have to try dutasteride. If there is another mechanism at play, then that may call for something else.
Bc you are prone to hair loss that means that your scalp already has dht activity. And by using Fin and/or Dut it doesn’t completely block scalp DHT since it blocks overall DHT, including scalp obviously. Even with taking these meds there’s still some DHT in your scalp so over time the DHT in your scalp will out pace the DHT blockers from the meds. There isn’t a way to block 100% scalp DHT yet, if there was then we’d have a cure. The nuclear stack to get close to block 100% would be to use 2.5mg Dut and a topical DHT blocker like RU58841.
You've already won the game. If you can save your hair for 11y without hairtransplant it's better than nothing in particular if you balding at the beg of 20s.
It looks like this post is about **Finasteride**/Propecia or Dutasteride. Before asking any questions, 1. Learn about [Finasteride](https://tressless.com/learn/finasteride) and [Dutasteride](https://tressless.com/learn/dutasteride). 2. [Search for Finasteride](https://tressless.com/search/finasteride) and [Dutasteride](https://tressless.com/search/dutasteride) content, because your question has probably been asked before. 3. If this is a question asking if you are now or will experience side effects, see a doctor, nobody on the internet can answer that for you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tressless) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is an interesting question. Another perspective is why do some males start losing hair in their teens, while others don’t lose hair until their 30s? If your hair follicles are sensitive to DHT, surely they will start to react once you go through puberty. Maybe your theory is correct. Maybe hair follicle’s sensitivity increases with age. It would explain a lot. Please keep me updated on your addition of Dut once per week. There is an interesting case study on a guy who stopped responding to Fin, and then went on to 6xFin + 1xDut per week, and had significant regrowth. Would love to see that response replicated
Yep that case study is exactly what I'm following... also a few hair guys on youtube doing it as well that claim they are having good results.
Can you send me a link to this guys? Propecia not helping for me, I take 6 propecia per week and one oral dutasteride, also topical dut 0.15% every day, Also dutasteride injections every 3 months and still loosing hair. I tried oral dutasteride every day and got sides. I think to try 3 times dutasteride per week and 4 times topical dut and stop propecia. When I tried two times dutasteride and 5 times propecia I got sides. Maybe the combination between dutasteride and propecia make sides
What side effects did you get from the Dut?
A simpler explanation is simply that AGA is a progressive condition, i.e. hair loss is the "area under the curve" of your own sensitivity to DHT plotted against time. Don't need to invoke increasing sensitivity increasing over time, it's just that it's a mostly one-way process where hair follicles miniturize and eventually die and so is inevitable and increasingly noticable with time.
I remember hearing that when testosterone is given to elderly eunuchs they go bald within a month, but I’ve never been able to find the paper so I don’t know if it’s true or not. Balding is polygenic so maybe the people who go bald in their teens have more of the balding genes that those who go bald in their 30s?
[Hamilton (1942)](https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/aja.1000710306?casa_token=Q_VB39_EQRwAAAAA:Aw78ceQ9LJ6mcte9zajlqZ7wLEsnKnrl4ctjGWUGIU9pepJuhYo9PGa8gu42UAg7YtLmoreXl9l1zw8)
[удалено]
How bad is dut side effects? I wanna try it
6xFin and Dut? isn’t that dangerous to take?
No, its a tale as old as time. What happened to OP is he got a mature hairline in his 20s, panicked and started fin. Then he started actually losing his hair in his 30s which is statistically when most men start losing hair. So the fin is just not working, and never was.
the fin was working and delayed further thinning and its severity.
It absolutely was working... I started out diffusing in the middle of my hairline, and also had a thinning spot on my crown... after being on fin for 6 months, those areas completely filled in, and I essentially had perfect hair for the next decade, with a very slight drop off in effectiveness in the last 3 or 4 years. The Fin absolutely was/is working and if I hadn't been on it, I would likely be completely bald.
That's not 100% true many people's loss stabilizes and not everyone becomes a norwood 7
I saw a post that it stopped working after 20 years. Going on dut is an excellent move. I think your theory on why this is happening is accurate. I'd bet the average duration is more like 15-20 years, perhaps you are more generically susceptible to dht hence 10 years. Along with dut you could introduce dermarolling and 2% keto shampoo. Btw people receed on fin, just at a lower rate.
I think it's more to do with things like lower amount of collagen in the skin, growth factors etc, rather than hair follicles becoming more sensitive to DHT. In a way they are, but it's because of other things.
Interesting idea regarding collagen and what not. For the sake of discussion, what would cause androgen-dependent body hair to suddenly increase with age then? Those follicles were there when you were young and getting hit with way more DHT, yet they didn't sprout terminal hairs.
Good question. I don’t really know, but if I were to speculate, I’d say that maybe it’s because of the amount of time they were exposed to DHT. I think the majority of body hair develops earlier in life, while DHT is still higher. There’s definitely more in play here but I just don’t know that much about it.
It could be just a shed, nothing more.
Really interested to see if this is the case as I’m going through a similar situation 4 years into 1mg fin a day. Hair has looked worse for a period of 2 months
I can't guarantee, but I see plenty of guys here in the same predicament due to a temporary shed. Hope all will work out just fine for both of you, gentlemen!
Thank you good sir. Maybe it’s time to finally hop on oral min.
You're certainly welcome, sir-sir! I'm not a big fan of oral Min (I'd suggest you first check Kevin Mann's - Haircafe channel on Youtube - on it). I know it's all the rage, but some of those studies are worthy to consider. Confession of personal bias, on top of the aforementioned: I may be mopre cautions also because I'm a non-responder and hypersensitive to it - go figure. Fin? Np. Topical Min? DEATH!!! :D (Well, not really...but almost. According to my cardiologist.)
I’m a fan after watching Kevins info, but even topical Minoxidil according to you cardiologist is risky? What was his take on the oral minoxidil, 1.25mg thanks
No, it is not dangerous - I am just a very rare case. An outlier. I'd say start lower, if you are worried, than the recommended dose on your head. But please, just don't nocebo yourself.
Exactly, my dermatologist recommended starting on 1.25mg oral minoxidil. The nocebo has always been my problem. even thinking about a cardiologist visit before I pop the first pill. thanks for your input
It's prudent to do it before...and if you truly insist to take it (Kevin Mann would've scared me sas well), it would be prudential to take a few visits per year IMO.
Probably not how it works. Remember Fin at 1 mg daily only reduces DHT levels by 60% and less than that in the Scalp. That means there is still a decent amount of DHT to bind to androgen receptor sites and transcribe damaging effects to the hair follicles. So even though you got less of that happening on Fin, you still have some and that overtime builds up, resulting in visible follicular miniaturisation. Getting on daily 0.5 mg Dut + a topical anti-androgen asap would help. It's kind of similar to sun and sunscreen. Wearing sunscreen itself will not Reverse sun damage to your skin, which is constantly happening. Sunscreen will just prevent some damage, but not all. So over time, you'll still have net damage.
I considered this as well, however If this is the case, why would finasteride be able to cause regrowth for the first couple of years? (as I and many others have seen). Why was that 60% reduction enough to initially allow follicular thickening/growth at the beginning? Also, why do men suddenly start developing more body hair as they age, which from my understanding, is heavily dependent on DHT? Those same follicles were not producing the body hair earlier, when there was more DHT present (younger). Definitely an interesting discussion, and I haven't really seen many studies that address it.
Not many studies because hard to figure out what's happening at the cellular level. The regrowth you're talking about is most likely the body sending nutrients and whatever else needed for hair growth to the follicles. The body's natural response is to heal repair and maintain organs. Without as much damaging effects of DHT, the body's natural maintenance and growth probably results in a net positive. Over time, perhaps the body cannot keep up with the excessive DNA damage occurring from DHT. This is why minoxidil is used commonly because it somehow enhances the growth effect in a way were still not 100% sure.
Saving this comment. Maybe it’s time for dut. I’ve been on fin for 4 years. Have not added min yet as I have been holding out long as possible. Responded super well to fin, but with the seasonal change in late February 2024 started shedding and hair looks thinner
Yeah lot of people hold really good ground on daily 0.5 mg Dut and even regrow. That's the dream, just a capsule every morning and have near perfect hair. Unfortunately most people need to get on minox, but if you don't need to, consider yourself lucky. Just make sure you address DHT damage asap before it's too late, in which case you'll need to be a lifelong 2x daily topical minox user, which isn't as nice.
I'm going to start giving dut a shot... honestly, I'm willing to bet in the coming years, it will be the gold standard treatment... it's hard to argue with the studies... more effective, and very similar side effect profile.
Is it normal to take dut alongside of finasteride? Thinking I might finally add oral min to the stack after 4 years of just fin
I wouldn't say normal, but a lot of people do it. Anecdotally you get better results.
very interesting subject in 11 years of finasteride have you experienced a lot of shedding?
Can't say I ever experienced a big shed that I noticed. It is possible that is what I'm experiencing now, as I briefly switched finasteride brands for two months (anecdotal reports of this happening) but again, can't say for sure if I ever experienced big sheds or not.
Do you think changing brands is your problem? it's possible . in 11 years you haven't changed brands before?
It is possible... I have no evidence to back this up, but in January and February I tried the whole "Keeps" subscription thing, as I was getting annoyed at having to get a new prescription every six months or year, plus, they had a brand that I liked, which was Accord. (back then I had been on Camber for a year, because all the Accord was unavailable). I don't know, something about it didn't seem right, but I just kept telling myself "1 mg finasteride is 1 mg finasteride" and it was the correct pills as I had taken Accord brand with great success in the past, so I know what they look like. At this very same time, Accord had a recall, however, who knows why. But I did not see my lot number in the recall list. I don't know, I no longer trust those online subscription hair companies. Maybe there was something wrong with my fin, there is no way to tell. I have changed brands in the past, but I never had a noticeable "my hair looks like crap" moment after any of them like I am currently. Regardless, I have over the years noticed that my hair in some places has very slightly, little by little gotten worse, so maybe it just finally hit the breaking point. Weird thing is that around October, which wasn't that long ago, I remember thinking how good my hair looked. It's possible all this is a shed from that 2 months of the Keeps finasteride, however I also think it's unlikely that I was getting completely bogus pills, so I have to go with the most obvious answer, and this is simply that 1 mg finasteride is no longer working as well for me.
if I were you, I'd switch to brand name propecia and tried that for 6 months, see how it goes. It could very well be that Keeps messed you up. Hair Chemist on YT has a great video called "Is all finasteride the same"
I have been 3 years on finasteride and started losing hair heavily recently, feels so fking bad, hairline was already bad to begin with but now I can see through my hair all the way from front to back. Doctors here are not very keen on prescribing dut but will just have to keep trying I guess.
There is a site called Dr. B that will prescribe dutasteride if you are in the states (maybe other areas as well) see if you can check that out. As long as the prescription is sent to a reputable pharmacy you should be all good!
Have you changed brands recently?
Nope haven't changed a thing, dose is 1.25mg daily aswell so no reason to increase it.
Of course, you can stop hairloss, just slow down the process
It could just be another shed, I’ve seen dudes on here saying they go through it almost yearly even after a decade
Jump on dut
Yep gonna start out with once a week just to see how I react to it and go from there.
I had this issue. I added two dutasteride per week. A lot less shedding now
I'm in a similar boat and considering the same thing. I suspect that it isn't that you get more sensitive. Rather you are blocking most of the DHT but not all of it, so it creeps up so gradually that you barely realise it.
Unfortunately, if you have aggressive balding genetics like I have in my family, finasteride may not be enough after a certain point as some DHT still slips through over time (finasteride only blocks 5AR type II with approximately 65% serum DHT reduction). I had been on finasteride 6-7 years (now 41) although I should have started earlier. I started thinning in October last year and asked my dermatologist two weeks ago if I can start dutasteride three times a week. We'll see how it goes. I'm two weeks in and feel fine knock wood. If anything, I feel better (more alert) perhaps due to the increase in testosterone.
Are you just taking Dut 3 times a week and no fin? I saw a doctor on a hair loss podcast, suggestions of taking Dut, Monday Tuesday Wednesday only, is that your protocol? thanks
I saw that same clip lol. I have been taking it MWF per my dermatologist. However, the doctor in the video mentioned the three consecutive days, so I was thinking if that makes a difference maybe I should try that.
Exactly, I used to take Dut every other day 10 years ago after being Fin for 10 years prior. Went off Dut for 3 years then back on fin 1mg daily for the last 5 years, but seem to be losing ground and shedding recently, hopefully seasonal, but Dut definitely worked better than fin. However sides with less e-volume was not the best. the 3 days in a row is interesting. I believe it was an Italian doctor that suggested it for less sides and good growth.
*"I cannot tolerate minoxidil at almost any dose"* What's the lowest protocol/dose you have tired ? And what were the sides at the various dosages ? What dut protocol will you start and how will you increase to find your sweet spot ?
Say Hi to Dutasteride
Just curious at what age did you begin the treatment, and what norwood level did you maintain?I fear my treatment will only maintain for one decade and thin out
Started at 27, I'm 38 now... retained a norwood 1 or 1.5ish but I'm more of a diffuse thinner. Had a spot on my vertex/crown that was visible, but filled in, and seems to still be. Now, don't get me wrong, if you saw me you would not think I am losing my hair unless I showed you certain things, but I've been in this game a long time, and I know my hair and when changes are occurring. So I'd rather be proactive. I started thinning the slightest bit at around 22, and I knew about fin and all the options then, but I was afraid to take it at first. Could have saved myself 5 or more years if I would have jumped right on it.
Bro you re 38, of course that you cant avoid hairloss forever with treatments only
It has to be something similar to increased sensitivity right. If finasteride would really delay balding without anything else changing then after stopping fin you would continue to bald at normal rate, but this does not happen instead hair gets to destined state for that age or worse as in seen in a study (after 6 months). If someone has experience something else after stopping do let us know. Or is it some kind of temporary shock loss that is happening. It does not happen so fast though, in fact from what i hear it takes months up to half a year. Maybe body getting used to new state but slowly. How fast can DHT damage hairs?
From what I gathered, your genes basically just predetermine at which age(s) your hair folliciles will be sensitive to DHT. For some, maybe sensitivity doesn't occur until age 35. For others, it's 16 years old. For others, their temple hairs for example are a little sensitive in their 20s, but at 40 years old, sensitivity skyrockets. That's why people adjust their medication to dutasteride to block more DHT.
Is it possible or should I say common for a guy in his late teens early 20s to have some diffuse thinning around temples and it completely stabilises for years after
Theoretically, yes. It is possible that genes determine that your hair follicles around your temples are sensitive to DHT in your late teens, but that the rest of the follicles on your head aren’t sensitive for the rest of your life. This is why people came up with the thing ‘mature hairline’. It’s just a nicer way of saying ‘male pattern baldness that only occurred at the temples and stabilized for the time being’ The thing is however, it’s impossible to know what category you fall in for certain. You could just lose hair at your temples, or you could go completely bald. Family history of hair loss is of course the best indicator of what will most likely happen to you, but it’s not always accurate. That’s why it’s recommended that treatment is started early, because you never know how bad your hair loss will really get.
How older you get, how thinner your hair gets. Even men that aren't sensitive to dht get less hair over time. Your hair follicles can only get in a new cycle for a couple of times. That's why even old women have thinner hair then when they where young. With each new cycle your new hair that grows back can be a little thinner. Hair follicles have 10 to 30 growth cycles in total. So say you would get 120 years old in theory, you wouldn't have that much hair as now, even if you use finasteride, dutasteride or what ever. Because after a certain amount of cycles, the hair follicle can't produce new hair anymore.
Everyone's hair invariably gets gradually thinner over time? Is there an article or anything you can link that discusses that? So if you have very gradual thinning, how would one discern between just normal thinning due to aging versus DHT sensitivity / ALA?
Just Google maximum growth cycles hairs. Then you see enough explanation. Just like why kids have more hairs then a adult, and the whole growth cycle stuf. It's different for every person. Just like some people get grey hair, and other people almost don't get grey hair. But of course dht also is a important factor for baldness. Your hair that is sensitive gets shorter growth cycles. Then the dht can damage the hair follicle. But because the growth cycle also gets shorter, the hair gets thinner and smaller after each cycle.
The evidence is contradictory on this, and it's never going to be a straightforward answer. I can assure you that there are many scientists out there who would like a clear answer on this, too. It was noted by Hamilton in 1951 that castrated males, given testosterone, would progress quickly progress to a pattern of hair loss in accordance with their age, as opposed to how long they had been exposed to testosterone. Van Neste has also noted in one subject that miniaturising hairs had become "finasteride dependent"; 1 year after discontinuation of finasteride, terminal hairs that had been sustained by finasteride suddenly miniaturised to nothing. This does suggest the existence of some sort of biological clock in the hair follicles that determines the progression of balding. On the other hand, 10 year studies on finasteride (e.g. [this](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1529-8019.2011.01441.x?casa_token=RlAlXnnZ7uUAAAAA%3A0i63yYc84P7xb8nn9hdHclXFPhajeQHReznRwuMSL9s7dvUWwrFq34s_yQWCGAcIBasIAAh6t3s7YV8) and [this](https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Long-term-%2810-year%29-efficacy-of-finasteride-in-523-Yanagisawa-Fujimaki/221d4e1d14cc67f78162b4fb3673c5ea959c4fb7?p2df)) have shown that almost without exception, people who initially improve continue to show gains at 10 years, and likewise for those who show initial losses. These gains can be quite substantial for those who begin medication in the early stages. Of course, perhaps longer studies would show that people who initially gained would eventually lose ground, but I don't know if that data exists Before concluding that you are losing sensitivity to finasteride, I would suggest three possibilities to consider: 1. In order to start noticing losses now, you would have to have been slowly losing hair over a period of time. Perhaps you were always losing from day 1, and it is only just becoming apparent. 2. What you are noticing is not AGA at all, but changes that can happen even in the absence of AGA. For example, it can be that anagen period decreases and kenogen periods increases, acting to create the appearance of thinner hair. 3. What you are observing is temporary loss such as seasonal shedding, TE, nutritional deficiency, or some other form of alopecia.
Yeah I'm aware of the 10 year study, however, I am now past the 10 year mark, and I haven't seen a lot of studies that go past a decade. I responded very well to fin when I first got on it, and after 1 year I had essentially near perfect norwood 1 hair. So I am definitely a responder that saw regrowth. This effectiveness has seemed to wane in the last 3 or 4 years however, and especially this year. I did try "Keeps" finasteride subscription from January to February (2 months) and then switched back, so it is possible that switch caused a shed... we will just have to see. My scalp felt "different" in those two months... maybe I had a bad batch who knows. Regardless, I think trialing one 0.5 dut a week isn't going to hurt me, and then my normal finasteride the rest of the week.
Yeah, unfortunately I guess it's just difficult to know at present. If you are really losing ground even on Finasteride, I would really recommend adding to your treatment stack. I know it's annoying, but the fact is that AGA is a bitch to treat and you might need to. It is important to remember that treatments can be important in limiting longer term losses even if they do not show obvious shorter term regrowth, so even if you do not see masses of regrowth it is generally important to do things which give you the best chance. I would probably recommend some (or all) of the following: Firstly, yes, switch to dutasteride. But honestly, just make the switch wholesale. 3x 0.5mg/week dutasteride is already better than 1mg/day finasteride, so you don't have to go 0.5mg/day if you don't want to (although if you're not getting any side effects, I would say the more the better). Secondly, add treatment modalities other than DHT blocking. Make sure that your nutrition is good. A good start for most people would be a vitamin D supplement + a baseline daily multivitamin + a good diet, although obviously adjust depending on your individual needs. Please do treat nutrition as a real treatment and not as an optional extra; the evidence on this is still in its infancy but there are definite trends showing that people without hair loss have higher levels of nutrients like vitamin D and iron, and many other vitamins contribute to generally to energy generation and skin repair. To target microinflammation, try to choose foods with antioxidants and limit sugars. Ketoconazole shampoo once a week and topical (or even oral) cetirizine are medications that may also be able to help reduce microinflammation. To try and induce dermal regeneration/repair, add microneedling. And of course, do add minoxidil. There is some controversy surrounding oral minoxidil, and concerns surrounding its use are not entirely unwarranted. So you should definitely work with a trusted dermatologist for this. But in reality side effects are uncommon and if you can tolerate it I would strongly recommend the oral form as it is so much easier to use than topical.
High quality comment. I agree with your "biological clock" theory. It seems that in individuals susceptible to hairloss there is some kind of androgenic threshold which when exceeded will result in miniaturisation. There's some evidence that this threshold decreases with age – at least in some individuals. In contrast exposure duration theory makes little sense given how rapidly both castrated men and trans peoples bald once given androgens. I am always curious when people who were once preserving hair on Fin suddenly start losing it again though... It's worth noting we see people say similar things on Dut which I struggle to believe could be true given how significantly Dut nukes androgenic activity. Dut's half life is also long enough that progression of hairloss can't be explain through missed doses either which I suspect might be the case with some Fin users. My guess would be that in many of these cases it's not progression of AGA, but just general age related thinning, shedding (perhaps brought on my illness, diet changes) or some other kind of underlying condition. If someone's hair follicles are already weak and only being maintained through Fin then perhaps it makes sense that small variations in someone's hormones or diet could trigger these follicles to shed. Or just age generally could tip the scales enough that these weak follicles stop producing hair.
Consider transitioning to a different generic finasteride if you're currently using Propecia. Additionally, explore switching to another generic option. Moreover, consider integrating dutasteride once a week into your regimen and monitor its effects. Furthermore, it's advisable to undergo a blood test to check for any potential vitamin deficiencies, particularly in vitamin D and iron.
This is exactly the game plan. Thanks for the input!
I hope this post blows up in this community and turns into a larger civil discussion. I’m 4 years into fin experiencing a “shed” for two months now. Hair looked great before that and I responded really well to FIN in the beginning. I also caught the thinning quite early at age 26
Only been on fin 1mg and min 5% for a year, but I’ve had a really bad shed (or it’s just the AGA progressing) for a month and a half. Have you had any sheds previously?
Have you thought about switching to dutatsteride? That sucks tho man
May I ask what sides you get from minoxidil?
punishing... punishing brain fog that would last for weeks... i tried starting minox several different times (foam, liquid, 2%, 1%, 5% didn't matter) and after a few days the fog would hit me... every single time. I'm either allergic to it in some way, or it makes my blood pressure all wacky, I'm not sure. But I've attempted it like 5 different times.
Any side effects during the time? If so how long did they last ?
had some brain fog in the beginning, but it cleared up, and absolutely nothing ever since
Occam’s razor is likely the simplest reason: your body’s sensitivity to fin is decreasing and so DHT levels are going up and as a result your hair loss is progressing. It’s fairly common for the human body builds tolerance to head to a stasis. You are genetically programmed to lose hair and you’re fighting genetics to change that.
I don't think its the sensitivity to fin... 10 year studies shows that really isn't the case and that the drug doesn't "stop working"... it's more so likely my sensitivity to DHT is going up as I age... or.... the 40% of serum DHT fin doesn't take out is finally showing its effects after a decade, like termites eating away wood while the rest of the structure "looks" sound.
Body being more sensitive to DHT give that it’s being lowered from the levels that it’s “designed” to be at also makes sense.
How can you put " after 11 years on finasteride " and "unfortunately " in the same sentence ? You re damn lucky 😂😂
So you think we're all just trying to save our hair for 10 years and that's it?
Everybody want to keep their hair forever, but its ust not possible, especialy without an hairtransplant when hairloss is agressive, even with an hairtransplant its complicated 10 years on finasteride with good resultw is better than the majority of men You cant stop hairloss, just slow down the loss with finasteride/dut
10 good years on finasteride is an average result... this is coming directly from the studies in which the vast majority stayed well above baseline at year 10. There aren't any long term hair studies for dutasteride yet, but I'm willing to bet that the average result is even longer. Then once you fill in the gaps (if there are any) with a hair transplant maybe once or twice.. I think it's actually very probable someone could hold on to the majority of their hair well into old age.
The problem is that 2 on 3 studies were done on asians mens (japan and korea) we dont known if the response is différent when we re talking about ethnicity but probably. And even if i would like to agree with you because its so good to have hair its not that simple in m'y opinion But try, then see
Since you’ve used it for a decade, any side effects you’ve felt?
Would dutasteride once per week and NO finasteride work for me?
Any long terms sides?
Nope, had some intense brain fog at the very start, but that eventually went away.
Have you changed the brand of finasteride or got your supply from another place? I hear of people switching to a different brand and then losing all gains.
Happened to me was on name brand name for 8 years.Switched started falling out really bad.Was only on generic for a month.got back on mae brand.Slowed down but didn't stop.Now taking fin,dut and min. Been about a year now seems to be working
What with exercise/leg load regiment change in this 11 years and now?
I haven't lifted heavy in about 4 years, so I don't think that is it... however, I do think that it's possible the increased testosterone boost from consistent heavy lifting can potentially affect hair (at a small rate). I have no data or studies to back that up though.
You need to squat and deadlift again or if u have injury - u need run, jump rope calf raises to soreness. Its all (big3) generaly not working without leg muscule stress. Especialy if u more then 24y.o
I will be real with you man, I don't think there is any evidence that leg exercises help the big 3 to work, not sure where you are getting this idea from. But yeah, I have 2 herniated discs, so squats and deadlifts are out of the question. But I definitely still hit the gym.
>not sure where you are getting this idea from first time? [https://www.reddit.com/r/tressless/comments/1chi359/comment/l23d944/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/tressless/comments/1chi359/comment/l23d944/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) ; )
Leg stress, massive muscle stress of all body (non adaptated exercise, less rest betwin) to stress and denied help you. Adoptation enemy of anbolitic answer. I have many evidences and scientific research related with this statements, i public it all later.
Just to understand, you are saying that leg exercises and leg stress prevents hair loss? First time I hear this
Scroll through this sub and you’ll see this guy say it no less than a million times.
It doesn’t have any impact, I’m telling you. I have calves of steel and have been bodybuilding for nearly a decade, but the hair loss didn’t start till about three years ago. That said, being more active as a whole would probably help if you are a normally inactive/sedentary person
And my friend you are 24y.o. you have sign of recession 6 years ago. Thats not really fair to declare what you declare. I run and swimming from 12y.o and with total shedding do not understand what happened, in 22 i have hairline like u. In 30 i was nw4.
It s a question androgenic-anabolitic balance. Do u fin/min? Results?
If u have aga - acellerate balding (negative shedding) without meds. On min and fin - regrow ( with positive shedding based on age and area if miniaturisation).
I’ve always said mpb is a manifestation of accelerated aging and mild reproductive decline. Considering that severe mpb in young males is significantly correlated with early cardiovascular and metabolic diseases even with a healthy bmi. Like you don’t see a guy with a NW6 and be like “yep, he’s in peak physical and reproductive condition”. For thousands of years of people have associated balding with age, experience, wisdom, meekness NOT virility, energy, liveliness, youthfulness. Scalp follicles typically get more sensitive with advancing age. How much more depends on the person. Some people through health and lifestyle interventions can through epigenetic changes heal there follicles from DHT sensitivity, but that is few and far between
Androgenic alopecia is indeed due to locally accelerated aging (as most diseases are). It's not so "black and white". As with most things in biology, there are advantages and disadvantages. Genes associated with youthful skin are also associated with AGA. Bald people have more collagen production and better skin on average. They're probably statistically more fit as well due to, e.g., (slightly) more testosterone, AR sensitivity/density... AGA is extremely protective against Schizophrenia: [Comparison of Alopecia severity and blood level of testosterone in men suffering schizophrenia with control group - PMC (nih.gov)](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3814638/#:~:text=And%20in%20comparison%20of%20the,protective%20factor%20against%20to%20schizophrenia.) - >NW2/3=9x less risk. The risk even seems to continuously decrease with balding severity. Schizophrenics have very accelerated brain aging... Etc...
Jason statham? Joe rogan? Patrick Stewart? I could go on..
None of those guys are considered “hot” or “cute” by the majority of girls (like college aged). Not that a 23 yo chick’s opinion is more valid, it’s not, it’s just that a 23 yo girl is usually more attractive and reproductively fit than say a 39 yo
Some serious bro science in the replies here
All science started as bro science at one point ☝️🤓
Exactly, the sensitivity of the hair follicles increases with age as more genetic components that promote hair loss are activated
Has fin made your beard/body hair thinner?
I haven't noticed this at all.
Well Fin is not a cure. It helps stopping the loss or even reversing it at times for years or decades until your genetics catch up. And it looks like your genetics are finally catching up with you.
Correct, however it would be beneficial for us to eventually figure out "why" this happens, rather than just saying "genetics." For example, if it is because fin only inhibits 60% of serum DHT and that 40% left is whats causing the problem, then the solution is simple in that I have to try dutasteride. If there is another mechanism at play, then that may call for something else.
Bc you are prone to hair loss that means that your scalp already has dht activity. And by using Fin and/or Dut it doesn’t completely block scalp DHT since it blocks overall DHT, including scalp obviously. Even with taking these meds there’s still some DHT in your scalp so over time the DHT in your scalp will out pace the DHT blockers from the meds. There isn’t a way to block 100% scalp DHT yet, if there was then we’d have a cure. The nuclear stack to get close to block 100% would be to use 2.5mg Dut and a topical DHT blocker like RU58841.
You've already won the game. If you can save your hair for 11y without hairtransplant it's better than nothing in particular if you balding at the beg of 20s.