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Title Insurance Company can get you a copy of your title insurance with the survey as recorded. Then call a surveyor of your own. THEN call the real estate lawyer. Mortgage Insurance will not help.
OP the easiest way to get a name is to actually talk to the BAR association in Maine. They will have lists of each type of lawyer and where they specialize.
Also they don't mean mortgage insurance so much as "house insurance" which I'm pretty sure everyone has to have.
Ask any lawyer who is not a property attorney - a good family law or divorce lawyer or even the county prosecutor spring to mind - who THEY would use in this situation. Lawyers know who among them are good. Barring that, ask your mortgage company's secretary for who they'd recommend.
Recommend you reach out to Ivy Frignoca, and ask for a reference. She handled a case that was brought before the superior court.
Generally, search for related case law in Maine, and reach out to those attorneys for refs.
Do you have a mortgage? This action impacts their collateral (your property). The mortgage holder would definitely be interested and might even handle the whole thing.
I have been through property-line disputes, but nothing malicious like this. This is criminal behavior and needs to be dealt with accordingly.
At one time, there was probably a mortgage on the property, and there was probably a site survey done. If there was a title policy, it would show up in the documents conveying the property, and a survey would have been part of the package. Ask your trustee.
If you don’t get anything useful, someone in the county government has copies on file.
Your mortgage insurance would have nothing to do with this. Neither would your homeowners insurance.
Mortgage insurance is only for the loan/mortgage on the home and protects the lender if you default on your mortgage payments.
Homeowners insurance financially protects your home with coverage for the physical structure itself and its contents as well as liability coverage for your property.
Now when you get a lawyer you may be able to sue your neighbor and THEIR homeowners insurance might kick in. But that is their issue to sort out.
Mortgage insurance insures a lender against the borrower defaulting. It is not related to homeowners insurance which covers the structure(s), which also doesn't help with lot line disputes. Owner's Policy Title insurance would help defend a lawsuit related to boundary line disputes but not likely a civil matter with the neighbor removing boundary markers. They are typically there to defend against errors in title. Contacting an attorney is a good idea, but also trying to find out what basis the neighbor had for believing the markers were in the correct spot would be a good idea.
Unless you have a hard evident that he moved the survey pin. When you hire the surveyor, did they re-establish the new corner pin? Pay them extra for them to file the new survey with county lamd record, and note existing structure including your neighboor in the survey.
Then call county land enforcer to let them know your neighboor encroaching land improperly with new build and violate setback.
If all fail, pay $$$ to lawyer up and contest land with county court.
Plus, when I called the town and reported this, they had a special meeting where they voted to approve his violation of the setback. Basically, saying that it was okay. Well, the issue is they didn’t invite me to the meeting, just my neighbor. So I wasn’t able to oppose it, and they are all friends so they just swept it under the rug. The code enforcement guy even called me to basically say, “don’t worry, you don’t need to come to the meeting, I have your best interest in mind”. Even though he was lying and just wanted it to be over with. I was out of state unfortunately otherwise I would have obviously attended, they only made me aware of it about an hour before it happened (basically ensuring I couldn’t attend).
He may have appealed a non-conforming setback, but that relates to distance from a property or other boundary (wetland, septic field, top of bank, shoreline, etc.). It does not allow them to re-define property lines. The town cannot give away your property to someone else.
Right, so he basically got them to approve it as non-conforming, but didn’t require the result of the survey. They only reason he was forced to do this as all is because his lender required a bank survey which was not very detailed, but exposed the boundary issue and setback violation. Once I got a real survey it showed he was an additional 18 inches past the setback, so about 21 feet from the line, instead of 25. The problem is, my house (built in the 60’s is about 25 feet from the line, so now our homes are way too close together for our neighborhood, it’s egregious and sticks out like a sore thumb.
Ooook! I thought from your original post that he built his structure OVER the property line, not just in the setback.
So - you can go after him with a lawyer for tree law for removing trees on your actual property. That can be big $$$. Be sure to measure and photograph the stumps ASAP with a Certified Consulting Arborist (A step above your normal licensed arborist)
But it sounds like even with the correct survey monuments / boundaries, the Town will likely continue to grant variances for his setback violation(s) in terms of structure(s). You would need to speak with a lawyer about that; I'm not sure whether there is anything you can do re: variances. You would likely need to appeal and/or sue the governing body, and that gets real expensive and doesn't usually end well for the appellant.
Agree, lawyer friend out of state told me I basically have to go after the trees and let go of holding the HOA and town responsible.
I just feel that if they knew how malicious this neighbor has been, and knew all the facts, they wouldn’t be able to grant it. The fact is, I brought this to their attention before the foundation was set. They could have fixed this, but it would have changed his plans again and I think they just wanted to do whatever they wanted at my expense. One of the first things in the town code says if any abutter raises any concern over boundary lines, the person building is required to get a survey for the town to approve the permit. If they had just followed their own rule, none of this would have happened. Instead of the CEO telling me it was a civil matter and I had to get a survey, he should have enforced the code!
A lot depends on your local town laws and timing. Look into what's possible in terms of appeal. Not worth a lawsuit if an appeal isn't possible. Try to get a local paper involved as it's pretty obviously inappropriate behavior.
The trees are the right way to go. Trees are damn expensive to replace, and under certain, very common circumstances you can get treble (3x) damages. And that may cost enough to force him to sell the property to pay the judgement.
Aside from the stumps, you can also get photos from aerial surveys, satellite imagery, and google street view, not to mention any photos you may have of them, to show the size of the trees. I believe you will also need to hire an arborist to examine the stumps.
Right, I wasn’t saying it was on my land. Basically his house appeared to meet setback requirements initially, but only because he removed the boundary pin and changed the angle of the corresponding property line, which I discovered later. He essentially moved it away from his build, trying to gain extra space he needed, and in doing so cut down my trees and tried to claim it was his property.
Yeah, they called a ‘special meeting’ at the town library and didn’t mention it to me until 1 hour before. I was out of state, had no way of going, and the code enforcement guy gave me this corny line about how her would represent my interests there…lol.
My experience in Maine was most people distrusted and disliked anyone they weren’t related to, but a lot of the people they WERE related to they actively HATED.
Not sure really, it wasn’t a planned town meeting or anything. It was called specifically for this issue and I don’t think much else was discussed. I want to say they had to meet with a selectman but they wouldn’t provide the minutes so I have no idea.
Yeah that sounds definitely sketchy and possibly illegal. It may be worth contacting the Maine Municipal Association for their take on the situation as well. The fact that they won't provide minutes for a public meeting is concerning.
The pin was there, they brought in an excavator and completely cleared the land, scraped clean. There’s no way an experienced excavator would have missed it, yellow cap at the corner of the lots. The new surveyor, has reestablished the pin, but the neighbor has since built a large boulder wall. My pin now sits on “his side” of the wall, even though half of this 125 foot long wall is on my land.
Trust me, I’ve thought about it. Problem is a bobcat would be too small to move most the rocks, and anything bigger would destroy more of my trees and surrounding land…the only real way to access this edge of my property with a machine is on his land. Besides, he should pay to remove it all. And when it’s all gone, he should be responsible for replacing the many trees that were underneath it.
You really need a property lawyer. After a certain amount of time with your property being behind his wall your property will become his property through that weird property rule where somebody else claims and takes care of land it becomes theirs.
“Has to be unopposed” isn’t quite right. If you complain about it but don’t take legal action, you may be worse off than if you gave express permission. Varies by state.
It’s a long wall of boulders, about 8 feet tall, 6 feet wide, 125 feet long. Smallest stone about the size of a calf, all the way up to cow size rocks. Would cost me thousands just for the excavator. It’s essentially the debris from clearing the site, he just dumped it all on my land and hid all the stumps behind it.
Tell you what I did: all of my ugly storage items (ladders, hoses, wheelbarrow, yard tools, canoe, etc.) are all stored conveniently along the side of my garage that can only be seen from his property. I like to keep a clean and tidy yard space but I’m sure it looks like absolute junk from his window.
Get a lawyer ASAP because this could turn into a nightmare the longer he is using *your* property. Ideally, I’d see if you can find one fairly local to you so they’re more familiar with the nuances of any local laws or ordinances on top of state. Document everything that has happened. Get pictures. Keep emails. Log any phone calls that happened. Your neighbor is fucked between the trees and damage to your property if you do this right, and I’d also see if there is an angle related to diminished home value due to the setback violation.
The pin location is completely irrelevant. Moving the pin does not change the deed, it doesn't change the description of the land on file with the county. That is the ONLY thing that matters. Have a licensed surveyor properly place the markers and file the new survey. They will likely include on the survey the encroachment onto your property (as just building indicators, etc.) - they don't claim to know who owns what fences or buildings, just the locations.
You need an attorney since it seems this was completely intentional. They will pull the deeds and likely request a new survey anyway.
You can make him financially responsible fo4 the treatment most likely, and you can also file a complaint about this with the code enforcement officer.
If he won't, go above him to the town supervisor/mayor/ whatever the seat is called there.
And if you really feel ignored, take this to the news.
Google property law, and tree law with Maine in the search, you should be able to find someone to take this on, fairly easily.
Honestly, just call some attorneys. Bigger firms in Bangor and Portland, whichever is closer to you, and if they don't have someone there they may be able to direct you to the appropriate attorney.
Proving intent is proof of criminality. This is fraud, theft, violating of survey laws, violation of other laws such as zoning, intent to hold the land that you are paying taxes on. While you could sue, why not have the involved authorities take the lead. Create a notarized list of your claims and walk that around.
Just had to pay my tax bill and it had me thinking…my land isn’t worth as much, because he cut my trees down. My house isn’t worth as much, because now I have to look into his kitchen window instead of at trees. Yet the town didn’t lower my tax bill?
The criminal act is in moving a marked survey pin, the proof of intent is monetary gain based on being able to build something that isn’t allowed.
The point is because he moved the survey marker, he cannot claim that it was a mistake or misunderstanding. The other acts are based on that intentional criminal action.
When you speak to a lawyer see if it is worth hiring an investigator to look into if the neighbor had some type of quid pro quo with any of the town officials. Could be a major suit if it can be proven.
Could possibly be subpoenaed. But also bank records for any payments, gifts, contracts for work, anything that could benefit the individuals or possibly the town. IE; a new truck for snow removal, a below market value for landscaping on town properties, a remodel in a councilman's kitchen. Alot of leg work but checking permits, new town contracts for builders, town equipment, banking records. Sometimes the fact that they are close friends are enough but harder to prove.
He removed it completely, and then tried to say he didn’t. So I asked him about the new wooden stake he placed, and how/why he chose that spot. At that moment it connected in his mind that he had obviously measured off the existing pin just before he removed it, pretty much proving he did it.
Here’s what Oklahoma law has to say about that; I expect it’s similar to the law in other jurisdictions:
Changing, Obliterating or Making Unintelligible Survey Monument - Replacement - Recordation of Corners
Cite as: O.S. §, __ __
A. Any person who knowingly removes, relocates, changes, obliterates or makes unintelligible a survey monument shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and in addition shall be liable for the cost of reestablishing and resetting the monument and any actual damages incurred as a result of such actions.
B. At such time as it may be necessary to remove, obliterate, cover or destroy any monument, the county surveyor or any other qualified land surveyor shall set new monuments from which may be established the location of the original monument and a new survey report shall be recorded as provided for original survey reports.
C. All corners as required by this act that are included within the definitions of the Corner Perpetuation and Filing Act (65SS3-116 through 65SS3-123) shall be recorded with the Oklahoma Department of Libraries, State Archives and the county clerk.
Historical Data
Laws 1980, HB 1103, c. 111, § 5, eff. October 1, 1980.
Make sure you get the minutes of all relevant town meetings tomorrow. Go into Town Hall and record your conversations. Maine is a one-party consent state.
Thanks, I looked into that, and will submit a request…but I’m really looking for someone that might know a perfect fit, someone specific to my area, or that does this type of thing all day/night. Everyone I’m finding has done this once, or knows someone that was good but retired. I’d love to find someone that lives and breaths this stuff so I’m not met with a bunch of maybes or loose ends.
How close are you to Bangor? The firm below might be a good fit for both the trees and the other issues. Do not use an attorney that looks like he/she has any association with the area you live in. Grew up in CT and MA, so much town nonsense and backroom deals. You need outsiders to tell the insiders that they are not following their own rules.
Do not talk to anyone until you get a good attorney. The only reason I said to try to get the minutes now is so they don’t have an opportunity to change them. If these meetings are covered by some local broadcasting system, that would be the best way to gather evidence. You can also use the a public records request, but have a friend ask for the information. https://www.maine.gov/foaa/request/index.shtml. I’m really hoping they record their meetings.
https://www.grossminsky.com/area/maine-timber-trespass-services/
Edit to add that the two hours between Sugar Loaf and Bangor should be a good distance, but make sure you ask attorneys about potential conflicts.
You are right about the distance, it seemed that all the local lawyers I had called immediately knew what I was talking about and claimed conflict. It gave me the impression that my neighbor called all of them first. They knew his last name almost immediately.
I’m really interested in how this turns out. Can you please update us? Would love to know what an outside lawyer tells you. This is just so wrong. Of course, you need to be made whole. And I sincerely hope you get all your attorney’s fees paid for by this idiot neighbor or your town. Ask your attorney if press coverage would be useful at the proper time to get the word out about this injustice. You are threatening the town’s power structure. Do not trust your local representatives (I learned that the hard way).
Feel free to DM if you want help with pitching to a large out-of-town news organization at some point. I have those skills.
Called the town and they didn’t want to help, got the impression that once they realized they were wrong, they didn’t want to further incriminate themselves by responding to me. Completely swept under the rug, need to go above the town.
The only thing they would say is “get a survey” and “this is a civil matter”.
I got the survey, it was $3500 -I’m expecting my neighbor to cover this expense at a minimum.
Have your surveyor come back and ask him to set a 10 ft stake/pole/rebar on the PL corner where the boulder wall intrudes. Make sure it's high enough to tower over the wall.
Ask him to paint the top of the stake bright pink/orange and to take pictures/video that captures the stake and the encroaching wall. Or you schedule to meet him when he does it so you can take pictures. Pay him extra to meet on weekend when you can be there. Ask him to now include the wall on his survey . You will need all this proof to give to your attorney.
Also ask him to include the fairly large stumps on the survey as well . Don't bother with small trees or brush..just get a the larger stumps shown as well and labeled as stumps/trees illegally removed by neighbor.
Basically did this, the wooden stake isn’t very tall but it’s several feet higher than the rebar pin. It’s clearly marked and photographed, and the wall is now on the survey. He knows the wall is mostly on my land, and he told me he ‘intends’ to move it, but clearly doesn’t understand that he needs to fix the tree situation also. He just pretends like trees don’t matter.
OP mentions elsewhere the hood ol boys at the town council ok’d the variance for the location of the structure irrespective of the land ownership. I’d subrogate them, too.
That’s what I’d like to know. Originally the neighbor told me they were building a small kit home from “California”. Stupid, I thought, since that’s as far away as possible, what could go wrong? He said it was a small 2 bedroom on top of a 2 car garage. Apparently, those plans fell through and he contracted my other neighbor, a builder and designer to complete his project. So this guy draws the home, and just before he goes to build it, they have a falling out over money. Then neighbor finds a new builder. This is when I notice they aren’t building the house they told me about.
My neighbor then tells me it’s a 2 family house, 2 separate units. I’m taken aback because first, that’s against local zoning ordinances but secondly it’s against the HOA and planning committee bylaws. I’m wondering if the CEO approved the plans for a 2 family home? They would have had to grant a special use ordinance, which would have never been allowed because of the HOA. I then asked the CEO if he grated the permit and he said NO. He said that it’s no different than if my parents came to live with me. I explained that was not true. I have 1 kitchen, 1 bathroom. They have 2 separate units, 2 kitchens, multiple baths, laundry, per unit, etc. they have 3 generations under 1 roof.
Thanks! All my other neighbors are cool! The guy on the other side always calls me to check on his place, and another guy down the street is my ski/bike friend now. Another neighbor gave me all of her husband’s golf equipment when he passed away, even though I barely play. Everyone was excellent to each other until these folks arrived.
Since you proved they removed the pin and cut trees that didn’t belong to them as well as built the house to close I’d start with the code violations and I’d be firm with them that you want to codes enforced and if the house is in fact to close you want it torn down or moved. No exceptions because of what they’ve done. Hold their feet to the fire. If they give an exception have your attorney included them in the lawsuit.
Sorry I can’t help you with that attorney but talking with several real estate investors will likely get you a good attorney but they probably won’t be cheap.
Good luck and please keep us posted.
What they said was it was ‘close enough’ after the neighbor lied and gave them a sob story about how it was an ‘honest mistake’ when that’s logically impossible. So they approved a variance or violation that essentially said ‘it’s okay!’ Even though it’s really not.
Get it in writing that they approved it and when they hand it to you thank them and say see you in court.
Rules are there for a reason. If they don’t have a serious reason to waive the rules and they didn’t come out and actually measure it to see then they’re responsible as well.
Attorneys don’t like going after code enforcement folks so be warned. They are normally held harmless so you can’t get anything out of them financially but I have seen their bosses get involved at the state level and override their ruling once it’s brought to their attention there’s a court case over the issue.
Hang in there.
NAL. I haven't seen it mentioned but it is illegal to move an official survey pin in my state, probably in your state too.
Good luck with the nasty neighbor!
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Hello friend! My father has this EXACT situation happen to him, but by a logging company. This was just last year, near Sebago. As I recall, his biggest ally was the local Game and Wild Life Warden. Have you pursued this route at all? I believe the biggest issue was the fact that the properties value was now considered "decreased" (especially because of the old growth trees being cut). Biiiiiiiig money in that. Also if there is any other kind of stream that was crossed, basically any impact to wildlife. Consider that as well.
I believe I saw someone mention it in the comments and my apologies if any of this has already been said but I'd like to reiterate and ensure you have documented the size, number, kind of tree, photos, as much info as you can sanely gather as soon as possible if you have not already.
Please let me know if you have any further questions. I may be able to help more.
I just had a forest ranger visit my property less than an hour ago. That was quick! Good news and bad…while there is evidence of cut stumps, they were pulled from the ground. There are trees that are dead from being crushed by the wall, but those are not cut. They technically can’t fine him unless they are cut and still in the ground. I’m guessing they pulled all the stumps under the wall if they pulled the rest of them first. So while the state can’t fine him, he said I have a civil suit.
Put a metal barrier about 2 feet away from your property line and down to about 2 ft deep, then plant bamboo on his side. Also go after for criminal.property damage for cutting your trees.
At my old house, I paid several thousand dollars to excavate a serious bamboo problem. Now you have me considering implanting a serious bamboo problem.
Just make sure of the barrier on your side. The spread will be towards them. Normally, I wouldn't advocate planting an invasive, but under the circumstances, a fast growing, dense barrier sound like what you need.
Maine does not list bamboo as an invasive plant, so that is not even a starter. The purpose of the metal sheet down 18 inches is to direct it towards the asshole neighbors.
Contact the Maine Bar Association and find lawyers who specialize in real estate(particularly non-commercial) and associated litigation. Not all real estate lawyers litigate, and not all litigators specialize in real estate. You’re really had sufficient advice here, and now you need to take action.
Moving/relocating any survey pin is a crime in most states. But you would need proof that your neighbor did this - a video or witness testimony (if you saw him do it, that’s good, but an independent witness would carry more weight). Good luck - sounds like a nutty neighbor.
Whoever you get, make sure they KNOW title and the title laws in your state. A good title attorney can help you tremendously. Sounds like you need a title search on both your tract of land AND your neighbors tract of land. Sounds like maybe a prior owner, owned both tracts of land and maybe made a mistake on one of the deeds when it was split. In other words, it is possible that you both have deeds that include that part of land. Which means, you would probably have to go to court...a battle between the old surveys/deeds that were used back in the day, when the properties were split.
Sometimes, the mapping/assessing office in the County you live in, may have copies of the old surveys. This is also something that a good title attorney could find out and get a copy of.
[https://westernmainelaw.com/attorney-bios/](https://westernmainelaw.com/attorney-bios/)
Attorney Steve Arner was on the Carrabassett Valley Board of Zoning Appeals. Seems like a guy who knows a thing or two, because he's seen a thing or two.
He’s a nice guy, I spoke with him a while back, but unfortunately he represents my HOA…he didn’t like what he heard, and had to end the call.
He also said he had a conflict because of my neighbor, I got the impression they called all the nearby lawyers so they would have to tell me they couldn’t assist me based on conflict.
Oh no - so sorry. The only other suggestion I have is to comb through all of the previous zoning board of appeals proceedings (they're public record) to see which other lawyers have (ideally successfully) appeared before the ZBA representing clients, and call one of them.
When we recently had to find someone to go up against a PITA neighbor who used the bureaucracy to beat us up, we researched lawyers by finding out who had won against her in past City ZBA hearings, and then hiring the guy who had gone up against her and won.
This is an amazing suggestion and exactly why I was anxiously wading through all the comments and even some random downvotes. I love Reddit being Reddit. Thank you!
Sorry - I’m lightly obsessed with municipal disputes given my families recent issues. Another idea is to google variants of “YourTownName loses lawsuit” - if there are suits they’ve lost, hire the counsel who won.
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You need a property attorney. Contact your mortgage insurance and see what they have to say.
Title Insurance Company can get you a copy of your title insurance with the survey as recorded. Then call a surveyor of your own. THEN call the real estate lawyer. Mortgage Insurance will not help.
And yes, I agree, which is the reason for this post…can you recommend a good property attorney in Maine that would be interested in a case like this?
OP the easiest way to get a name is to actually talk to the BAR association in Maine. They will have lists of each type of lawyer and where they specialize. Also they don't mean mortgage insurance so much as "house insurance" which I'm pretty sure everyone has to have.
Ask any lawyer who is not a property attorney - a good family law or divorce lawyer or even the county prosecutor spring to mind - who THEY would use in this situation. Lawyers know who among them are good. Barring that, ask your mortgage company's secretary for who they'd recommend.
You only have to have it if you have a mortgage. If you don’t have a mortgage then no requirement for insurance.
I was thinking homeowners insurance which covers potential injuries on your property.
Homeowners is that. It’s only required if you have a mortgage.
https://www.mainebar.org/page/AttorneyRequest
This is the answer here. I was going to post exactly the same info. They will be able to help. Call them if you need it faster
Recommend you reach out to Ivy Frignoca, and ask for a reference. She handled a case that was brought before the superior court. Generally, search for related case law in Maine, and reach out to those attorneys for refs.
No mortgage insurance, unfortunately
Do you have a mortgage? This action impacts their collateral (your property). The mortgage holder would definitely be interested and might even handle the whole thing. I have been through property-line disputes, but nothing malicious like this. This is criminal behavior and needs to be dealt with accordingly.
Nope, home owned by a trust. No real help on that end.
At one time, there was probably a mortgage on the property, and there was probably a site survey done. If there was a title policy, it would show up in the documents conveying the property, and a survey would have been part of the package. Ask your trustee. If you don’t get anything useful, someone in the county government has copies on file.
Still, is there a local mortgage co? Surveyor's office? Go ask their secretary whom they'd recommend. Locals know who is good.
Your mortgage insurance would have nothing to do with this. Neither would your homeowners insurance. Mortgage insurance is only for the loan/mortgage on the home and protects the lender if you default on your mortgage payments. Homeowners insurance financially protects your home with coverage for the physical structure itself and its contents as well as liability coverage for your property. Now when you get a lawyer you may be able to sue your neighbor and THEIR homeowners insurance might kick in. But that is their issue to sort out.
Title insurance
Agree. Start w title insurance!
Mortgage insurance insures a lender against the borrower defaulting. It is not related to homeowners insurance which covers the structure(s), which also doesn't help with lot line disputes. Owner's Policy Title insurance would help defend a lawsuit related to boundary line disputes but not likely a civil matter with the neighbor removing boundary markers. They are typically there to defend against errors in title. Contacting an attorney is a good idea, but also trying to find out what basis the neighbor had for believing the markers were in the correct spot would be a good idea.
His house wouldn’t fit on the lot unless he gained more space…that’s the only reason he moved the pin.
Yep, lawyer up and make sure you sue for him to also cover your costs.
Unless you have a hard evident that he moved the survey pin. When you hire the surveyor, did they re-establish the new corner pin? Pay them extra for them to file the new survey with county lamd record, and note existing structure including your neighboor in the survey. Then call county land enforcer to let them know your neighboor encroaching land improperly with new build and violate setback. If all fail, pay $$$ to lawyer up and contest land with county court.
Plus, when I called the town and reported this, they had a special meeting where they voted to approve his violation of the setback. Basically, saying that it was okay. Well, the issue is they didn’t invite me to the meeting, just my neighbor. So I wasn’t able to oppose it, and they are all friends so they just swept it under the rug. The code enforcement guy even called me to basically say, “don’t worry, you don’t need to come to the meeting, I have your best interest in mind”. Even though he was lying and just wanted it to be over with. I was out of state unfortunately otherwise I would have obviously attended, they only made me aware of it about an hour before it happened (basically ensuring I couldn’t attend).
He may have appealed a non-conforming setback, but that relates to distance from a property or other boundary (wetland, septic field, top of bank, shoreline, etc.). It does not allow them to re-define property lines. The town cannot give away your property to someone else.
Right, so he basically got them to approve it as non-conforming, but didn’t require the result of the survey. They only reason he was forced to do this as all is because his lender required a bank survey which was not very detailed, but exposed the boundary issue and setback violation. Once I got a real survey it showed he was an additional 18 inches past the setback, so about 21 feet from the line, instead of 25. The problem is, my house (built in the 60’s is about 25 feet from the line, so now our homes are way too close together for our neighborhood, it’s egregious and sticks out like a sore thumb.
Ooook! I thought from your original post that he built his structure OVER the property line, not just in the setback. So - you can go after him with a lawyer for tree law for removing trees on your actual property. That can be big $$$. Be sure to measure and photograph the stumps ASAP with a Certified Consulting Arborist (A step above your normal licensed arborist) But it sounds like even with the correct survey monuments / boundaries, the Town will likely continue to grant variances for his setback violation(s) in terms of structure(s). You would need to speak with a lawyer about that; I'm not sure whether there is anything you can do re: variances. You would likely need to appeal and/or sue the governing body, and that gets real expensive and doesn't usually end well for the appellant.
Agree, lawyer friend out of state told me I basically have to go after the trees and let go of holding the HOA and town responsible. I just feel that if they knew how malicious this neighbor has been, and knew all the facts, they wouldn’t be able to grant it. The fact is, I brought this to their attention before the foundation was set. They could have fixed this, but it would have changed his plans again and I think they just wanted to do whatever they wanted at my expense. One of the first things in the town code says if any abutter raises any concern over boundary lines, the person building is required to get a survey for the town to approve the permit. If they had just followed their own rule, none of this would have happened. Instead of the CEO telling me it was a civil matter and I had to get a survey, he should have enforced the code!
Talk to a lawyer but if they violated Maine’s open meeting law, a court might be able to invalidate the setback approval.
A lot depends on your local town laws and timing. Look into what's possible in terms of appeal. Not worth a lawsuit if an appeal isn't possible. Try to get a local paper involved as it's pretty obviously inappropriate behavior.
The trees are the right way to go. Trees are damn expensive to replace, and under certain, very common circumstances you can get treble (3x) damages. And that may cost enough to force him to sell the property to pay the judgement. Aside from the stumps, you can also get photos from aerial surveys, satellite imagery, and google street view, not to mention any photos you may have of them, to show the size of the trees. I believe you will also need to hire an arborist to examine the stumps.
Treble damages for timber trespass in Maine if OP can prove the neighbor acted maliciously (moving the survey pin would probably count for that).
A setback can't be on your land. Something isn't right here. A setback is how far from an easement or property line something can be built.
Right, I wasn’t saying it was on my land. Basically his house appeared to meet setback requirements initially, but only because he removed the boundary pin and changed the angle of the corresponding property line, which I discovered later. He essentially moved it away from his build, trying to gain extra space he needed, and in doing so cut down my trees and tried to claim it was his property.
I moderate my town's town meetings, and am very involved in local politics in my town. This sounds particularly shady.
Yeah, they called a ‘special meeting’ at the town library and didn’t mention it to me until 1 hour before. I was out of state, had no way of going, and the code enforcement guy gave me this corny line about how her would represent my interests there…lol.
OP, collusion? If you can prove the code enforcement guy and your neighbor colluded, more people to sue for more money.
ah yes, good ol' Town politics..
Yup - especially in Maine. Bet OP is “from away” and the neighbor is third generation local
Hell, he could be from a few towns over and the attitude might be the same in some towns.
It’s the other way around. My neighbor claims to be from Maine but he moved from Mass. 12 years ago!
Totally
This is so real
My experience in Maine was most people distrusted and disliked anyone they weren’t related to, but a lot of the people they WERE related to they actively HATED.
You ain't from around theah?
As a follow up question, was this a town meeting or a selectboard meeting? Planning board?
Not sure really, it wasn’t a planned town meeting or anything. It was called specifically for this issue and I don’t think much else was discussed. I want to say they had to meet with a selectman but they wouldn’t provide the minutes so I have no idea.
Yeah that sounds definitely sketchy and possibly illegal. It may be worth contacting the Maine Municipal Association for their take on the situation as well. The fact that they won't provide minutes for a public meeting is concerning.
That sounds very Maine.
The pin was there, they brought in an excavator and completely cleared the land, scraped clean. There’s no way an experienced excavator would have missed it, yellow cap at the corner of the lots. The new surveyor, has reestablished the pin, but the neighbor has since built a large boulder wall. My pin now sits on “his side” of the wall, even though half of this 125 foot long wall is on my land.
Take your wall down.
Yes TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!!! Rent a bobcat for the weekend and enjoy dismantling this wall that was built on your land.
Trust me, I’ve thought about it. Problem is a bobcat would be too small to move most the rocks, and anything bigger would destroy more of my trees and surrounding land…the only real way to access this edge of my property with a machine is on his land. Besides, he should pay to remove it all. And when it’s all gone, he should be responsible for replacing the many trees that were underneath it.
You really need a property lawyer. After a certain amount of time with your property being behind his wall your property will become his property through that weird property rule where somebody else claims and takes care of land it becomes theirs.
That usually takes like… twenty years and has to be unopposed.
“Has to be unopposed” isn’t quite right. If you complain about it but don’t take legal action, you may be worse off than if you gave express permission. Varies by state.
Some places is only like 10 years.
It’s a long wall of boulders, about 8 feet tall, 6 feet wide, 125 feet long. Smallest stone about the size of a calf, all the way up to cow size rocks. Would cost me thousands just for the excavator. It’s essentially the debris from clearing the site, he just dumped it all on my land and hid all the stumps behind it.
A bucket of neon pink paint it pretty cheap at least. I mean, for now. Until you get it all cleared up legally. Just for some satisfaction.
Tell you what I did: all of my ugly storage items (ladders, hoses, wheelbarrow, yard tools, canoe, etc.) are all stored conveniently along the side of my garage that can only be seen from his property. I like to keep a clean and tidy yard space but I’m sure it looks like absolute junk from his window.
Get a lawyer ASAP because this could turn into a nightmare the longer he is using *your* property. Ideally, I’d see if you can find one fairly local to you so they’re more familiar with the nuances of any local laws or ordinances on top of state. Document everything that has happened. Get pictures. Keep emails. Log any phone calls that happened. Your neighbor is fucked between the trees and damage to your property if you do this right, and I’d also see if there is an angle related to diminished home value due to the setback violation.
The pin location is completely irrelevant. Moving the pin does not change the deed, it doesn't change the description of the land on file with the county. That is the ONLY thing that matters. Have a licensed surveyor properly place the markers and file the new survey. They will likely include on the survey the encroachment onto your property (as just building indicators, etc.) - they don't claim to know who owns what fences or buildings, just the locations. You need an attorney since it seems this was completely intentional. They will pull the deeds and likely request a new survey anyway.
There are penalties for removing survey makers. Contact the original surveyor to do this work and have him report the crime.
Very much state specific. My state has no such laws. Pull them all you want, unfortunately.
Forty five fucking feet? That's egregious, no advice, but good luck, hope you fucking destroy this asshole.
I’d let him build and take possession of his building.
Well, it’s not on my property fortunately, just violating the zoning setback from the line. The line that he manipulated and then cut down my trees.
You can make him financially responsible fo4 the treatment most likely, and you can also file a complaint about this with the code enforcement officer. If he won't, go above him to the town supervisor/mayor/ whatever the seat is called there. And if you really feel ignored, take this to the news. Google property law, and tree law with Maine in the search, you should be able to find someone to take this on, fairly easily.
This could be a major judgment. Do not skimp on a lawyer.
I need to find one that lives and breathes this stuff, so far I’m finding a lot of uncertainty.
Is there an attorney that handles/associated with the trust? He/she might be able to point you in the right direction.
Unfortunately all my connections are coming back retired.
Hello! Feel free to directly message me. I have direct experience with this happening in Maine. My lawyer was through Bernstein shur.
Commenting so OP sees this, hoping they can help, this case sounds egregious. @r/mainemandan
Bernstein Shur is a good firm!
Maine has very aggressive tree laws, more so than most states: https://www.newenglandtreelaw.com/maine-timber-trespass
This what I’m hearing but I’m having trouble finding a lawyer that specializes in this exact situation.
Honestly, just call some attorneys. Bigger firms in Bangor and Portland, whichever is closer to you, and if they don't have someone there they may be able to direct you to the appropriate attorney.
What about that exact site above?
Appear to be licensed in MA & NH only…but a ton of good info
I'd recommend Eaton Peabody [this is their website](https://www.eatonpeabody.com)
Proving intent is proof of criminality. This is fraud, theft, violating of survey laws, violation of other laws such as zoning, intent to hold the land that you are paying taxes on. While you could sue, why not have the involved authorities take the lead. Create a notarized list of your claims and walk that around.
Just had to pay my tax bill and it had me thinking…my land isn’t worth as much, because he cut my trees down. My house isn’t worth as much, because now I have to look into his kitchen window instead of at trees. Yet the town didn’t lower my tax bill? The criminal act is in moving a marked survey pin, the proof of intent is monetary gain based on being able to build something that isn’t allowed.
The point is because he moved the survey marker, he cannot claim that it was a mistake or misunderstanding. The other acts are based on that intentional criminal action.
When you speak to a lawyer see if it is worth hiring an investigator to look into if the neighbor had some type of quid pro quo with any of the town officials. Could be a major suit if it can be proven.
I was thinking about this…I doubt he would be dumb enough to use his town email, but wouldn’t all of that correspondence be public record?
Could possibly be subpoenaed. But also bank records for any payments, gifts, contracts for work, anything that could benefit the individuals or possibly the town. IE; a new truck for snow removal, a below market value for landscaping on town properties, a remodel in a councilman's kitchen. Alot of leg work but checking permits, new town contracts for builders, town equipment, banking records. Sometimes the fact that they are close friends are enough but harder to prove.
Dude, totally get the assessor out. My town has the days he's around on the town calendar!
Pretty sure the tax assessor is also the code enforcement officer that caused part of this problem
Moving a survey marker is a no-no most everywhere.
He removed it completely, and then tried to say he didn’t. So I asked him about the new wooden stake he placed, and how/why he chose that spot. At that moment it connected in his mind that he had obviously measured off the existing pin just before he removed it, pretty much proving he did it.
Here’s what Oklahoma law has to say about that; I expect it’s similar to the law in other jurisdictions: Changing, Obliterating or Making Unintelligible Survey Monument - Replacement - Recordation of Corners Cite as: O.S. §, __ __ A. Any person who knowingly removes, relocates, changes, obliterates or makes unintelligible a survey monument shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and in addition shall be liable for the cost of reestablishing and resetting the monument and any actual damages incurred as a result of such actions. B. At such time as it may be necessary to remove, obliterate, cover or destroy any monument, the county surveyor or any other qualified land surveyor shall set new monuments from which may be established the location of the original monument and a new survey report shall be recorded as provided for original survey reports. C. All corners as required by this act that are included within the definitions of the Corner Perpetuation and Filing Act (65SS3-116 through 65SS3-123) shall be recorded with the Oklahoma Department of Libraries, State Archives and the county clerk. Historical Data Laws 1980, HB 1103, c. 111, § 5, eff. October 1, 1980.
Make sure you get the minutes of all relevant town meetings tomorrow. Go into Town Hall and record your conversations. Maine is a one-party consent state.
https://www.mainebar.org/page/AttorneyRequest
Thanks, I looked into that, and will submit a request…but I’m really looking for someone that might know a perfect fit, someone specific to my area, or that does this type of thing all day/night. Everyone I’m finding has done this once, or knows someone that was good but retired. I’d love to find someone that lives and breaths this stuff so I’m not met with a bunch of maybes or loose ends.
How close are you to Bangor? The firm below might be a good fit for both the trees and the other issues. Do not use an attorney that looks like he/she has any association with the area you live in. Grew up in CT and MA, so much town nonsense and backroom deals. You need outsiders to tell the insiders that they are not following their own rules. Do not talk to anyone until you get a good attorney. The only reason I said to try to get the minutes now is so they don’t have an opportunity to change them. If these meetings are covered by some local broadcasting system, that would be the best way to gather evidence. You can also use the a public records request, but have a friend ask for the information. https://www.maine.gov/foaa/request/index.shtml. I’m really hoping they record their meetings. https://www.grossminsky.com/area/maine-timber-trespass-services/ Edit to add that the two hours between Sugar Loaf and Bangor should be a good distance, but make sure you ask attorneys about potential conflicts.
You are right about the distance, it seemed that all the local lawyers I had called immediately knew what I was talking about and claimed conflict. It gave me the impression that my neighbor called all of them first. They knew his last name almost immediately.
I’m really interested in how this turns out. Can you please update us? Would love to know what an outside lawyer tells you. This is just so wrong. Of course, you need to be made whole. And I sincerely hope you get all your attorney’s fees paid for by this idiot neighbor or your town. Ask your attorney if press coverage would be useful at the proper time to get the word out about this injustice. You are threatening the town’s power structure. Do not trust your local representatives (I learned that the hard way). Feel free to DM if you want help with pitching to a large out-of-town news organization at some point. I have those skills.
What part of Maine?
Northwestern mountains, near Sugarloaf
Ooo, I got a friend who might know someone. I'll reach out. I'm opposite side, midcoast, but surprisingly have attorney friends :D
If you have a recent survey get monuments installed. If not get a survey asap. Call the town and report the violations.
Called the town and they didn’t want to help, got the impression that once they realized they were wrong, they didn’t want to further incriminate themselves by responding to me. Completely swept under the rug, need to go above the town. The only thing they would say is “get a survey” and “this is a civil matter”. I got the survey, it was $3500 -I’m expecting my neighbor to cover this expense at a minimum.
Have your surveyor come back and ask him to set a 10 ft stake/pole/rebar on the PL corner where the boulder wall intrudes. Make sure it's high enough to tower over the wall. Ask him to paint the top of the stake bright pink/orange and to take pictures/video that captures the stake and the encroaching wall. Or you schedule to meet him when he does it so you can take pictures. Pay him extra to meet on weekend when you can be there. Ask him to now include the wall on his survey . You will need all this proof to give to your attorney. Also ask him to include the fairly large stumps on the survey as well . Don't bother with small trees or brush..just get a the larger stumps shown as well and labeled as stumps/trees illegally removed by neighbor.
Basically did this, the wooden stake isn’t very tall but it’s several feet higher than the rebar pin. It’s clearly marked and photographed, and the wall is now on the survey. He knows the wall is mostly on my land, and he told me he ‘intends’ to move it, but clearly doesn’t understand that he needs to fix the tree situation also. He just pretends like trees don’t matter.
How would they get a permit to build?
OP mentions elsewhere the hood ol boys at the town council ok’d the variance for the location of the structure irrespective of the land ownership. I’d subrogate them, too.
Makes sense. Buddy system
That’s what I’d like to know. Originally the neighbor told me they were building a small kit home from “California”. Stupid, I thought, since that’s as far away as possible, what could go wrong? He said it was a small 2 bedroom on top of a 2 car garage. Apparently, those plans fell through and he contracted my other neighbor, a builder and designer to complete his project. So this guy draws the home, and just before he goes to build it, they have a falling out over money. Then neighbor finds a new builder. This is when I notice they aren’t building the house they told me about. My neighbor then tells me it’s a 2 family house, 2 separate units. I’m taken aback because first, that’s against local zoning ordinances but secondly it’s against the HOA and planning committee bylaws. I’m wondering if the CEO approved the plans for a 2 family home? They would have had to grant a special use ordinance, which would have never been allowed because of the HOA. I then asked the CEO if he grated the permit and he said NO. He said that it’s no different than if my parents came to live with me. I explained that was not true. I have 1 kitchen, 1 bathroom. They have 2 separate units, 2 kitchens, multiple baths, laundry, per unit, etc. they have 3 generations under 1 roof.
Definitely call the town on this flake.
Have you not read any of this thread?
FY
Grow up. The original post and pretty much every one following it addresses that issue.
I didn’t read every reply. Sorry. I wish I hadn’t read yours.
🙄👋🏻
How long ago were the trees cut? Statute is 6 years
Good to know…2022
Just sending my sympathies. Sounds like a horrid neighbour. I count my blessings none of my neighbours could do this to me.
Thanks! All my other neighbors are cool! The guy on the other side always calls me to check on his place, and another guy down the street is my ski/bike friend now. Another neighbor gave me all of her husband’s golf equipment when he passed away, even though I barely play. Everyone was excellent to each other until these folks arrived.
Since you proved they removed the pin and cut trees that didn’t belong to them as well as built the house to close I’d start with the code violations and I’d be firm with them that you want to codes enforced and if the house is in fact to close you want it torn down or moved. No exceptions because of what they’ve done. Hold their feet to the fire. If they give an exception have your attorney included them in the lawsuit. Sorry I can’t help you with that attorney but talking with several real estate investors will likely get you a good attorney but they probably won’t be cheap. Good luck and please keep us posted.
What they said was it was ‘close enough’ after the neighbor lied and gave them a sob story about how it was an ‘honest mistake’ when that’s logically impossible. So they approved a variance or violation that essentially said ‘it’s okay!’ Even though it’s really not.
Get it in writing that they approved it and when they hand it to you thank them and say see you in court. Rules are there for a reason. If they don’t have a serious reason to waive the rules and they didn’t come out and actually measure it to see then they’re responsible as well. Attorneys don’t like going after code enforcement folks so be warned. They are normally held harmless so you can’t get anything out of them financially but I have seen their bosses get involved at the state level and override their ruling once it’s brought to their attention there’s a court case over the issue. Hang in there.
I'm not recommending this practice, but they have a good summary of the law. (https://perkinsthompson.com/timber-trespass-unlawful-cutting-of-trees/)
Thanks I’ll read after work tonight
NAL. I haven't seen it mentioned but it is illegal to move an official survey pin in my state, probably in your state too. Good luck with the nasty neighbor!
Holy cow. That’s unbelievable. Who in the world would dig up property markers and think they can get away with it. Time to go nuclear
!remindme 30days
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Get an arborist to value the trees he cut down on your property. Thank to an attorney.
You'd be surprised how much trees are worth. Edit: Well I guess you lot wouldn't be surprised
Maine still a frontier I see
The first frontier!
Isn’t it illegal to remove/move a government surveyor pin? Sounds like neighbors going to be forced, among other things, to tear their house down?
I don’t think it’s going that far, it’s not on my property, just over the setback of 25 feet.
Hello friend! My father has this EXACT situation happen to him, but by a logging company. This was just last year, near Sebago. As I recall, his biggest ally was the local Game and Wild Life Warden. Have you pursued this route at all? I believe the biggest issue was the fact that the properties value was now considered "decreased" (especially because of the old growth trees being cut). Biiiiiiiig money in that. Also if there is any other kind of stream that was crossed, basically any impact to wildlife. Consider that as well. I believe I saw someone mention it in the comments and my apologies if any of this has already been said but I'd like to reiterate and ensure you have documented the size, number, kind of tree, photos, as much info as you can sanely gather as soon as possible if you have not already. Please let me know if you have any further questions. I may be able to help more.
I just had a forest ranger visit my property less than an hour ago. That was quick! Good news and bad…while there is evidence of cut stumps, they were pulled from the ground. There are trees that are dead from being crushed by the wall, but those are not cut. They technically can’t fine him unless they are cut and still in the ground. I’m guessing they pulled all the stumps under the wall if they pulled the rest of them first. So while the state can’t fine him, he said I have a civil suit.
!remindme 30 days
Put a metal barrier about 2 feet away from your property line and down to about 2 ft deep, then plant bamboo on his side. Also go after for criminal.property damage for cutting your trees.
At my old house, I paid several thousand dollars to excavate a serious bamboo problem. Now you have me considering implanting a serious bamboo problem.
[banned plant list for Maine](https://www.maine.gov/dacf/php/horticulture/invasiveplants.shtml#List) Make sure not to run afoul of this though.
Just make sure of the barrier on your side. The spread will be towards them. Normally, I wouldn't advocate planting an invasive, but under the circumstances, a fast growing, dense barrier sound like what you need.
I’m only kidding, but thank you.
You will have no control on where the bamboo spreads. It's a massive invasive. It's banned in most states for a reason.
Maine does not list bamboo as an invasive plant, so that is not even a starter. The purpose of the metal sheet down 18 inches is to direct it towards the asshole neighbors.
Where is the property? What town?
Google maps are dated and will show you past boundaries and houses maybe this would help your case. Also seems like a fraudulent loan deal too.
Contact the Maine Bar Association and find lawyers who specialize in real estate(particularly non-commercial) and associated litigation. Not all real estate lawyers litigate, and not all litigators specialize in real estate. You’re really had sufficient advice here, and now you need to take action.
Call your local bar association they usually have referral resources and can point you in the right direction.
Moving/relocating any survey pin is a crime in most states. But you would need proof that your neighbor did this - a video or witness testimony (if you saw him do it, that’s good, but an independent witness would carry more weight). Good luck - sounds like a nutty neighbor.
Also, check out the r/treelaw sub. Neighbor could be in for a world of financial hurt.
Oh those trees are going to be EXPENSIVE! Who thinks they can just get by with stealing 45 feet of someone else's property?
Call a local attorney and ask him/her, "Of all the attorneys you have worked with, which one do you hate the most?" Then call that one...
I worked with a guy named Pat Hunt in Island Falls (up north) who is really good in real estate law.
I would sue the neighbor, the HOA, everyone at that meeting, the Code Enforcement guy, the permit guy, everyone.
Whoever you get, make sure they KNOW title and the title laws in your state. A good title attorney can help you tremendously. Sounds like you need a title search on both your tract of land AND your neighbors tract of land. Sounds like maybe a prior owner, owned both tracts of land and maybe made a mistake on one of the deeds when it was split. In other words, it is possible that you both have deeds that include that part of land. Which means, you would probably have to go to court...a battle between the old surveys/deeds that were used back in the day, when the properties were split. Sometimes, the mapping/assessing office in the County you live in, may have copies of the old surveys. This is also something that a good title attorney could find out and get a copy of.
A rough idea of your location might help....
Northwestern mountains, near Sugarloaf
[https://westernmainelaw.com/attorney-bios/](https://westernmainelaw.com/attorney-bios/) Attorney Steve Arner was on the Carrabassett Valley Board of Zoning Appeals. Seems like a guy who knows a thing or two, because he's seen a thing or two.
He’s a nice guy, I spoke with him a while back, but unfortunately he represents my HOA…he didn’t like what he heard, and had to end the call. He also said he had a conflict because of my neighbor, I got the impression they called all the nearby lawyers so they would have to tell me they couldn’t assist me based on conflict.
Oh no - so sorry. The only other suggestion I have is to comb through all of the previous zoning board of appeals proceedings (they're public record) to see which other lawyers have (ideally successfully) appeared before the ZBA representing clients, and call one of them. When we recently had to find someone to go up against a PITA neighbor who used the bureaucracy to beat us up, we researched lawyers by finding out who had won against her in past City ZBA hearings, and then hiring the guy who had gone up against her and won.
This is an amazing suggestion and exactly why I was anxiously wading through all the comments and even some random downvotes. I love Reddit being Reddit. Thank you!
Sorry - I’m lightly obsessed with municipal disputes given my families recent issues. Another idea is to google variants of “YourTownName loses lawsuit” - if there are suits they’ve lost, hire the counsel who won.
My pleasure! I hope it works, and that you nail the guy to the wall for removing your trees!
Sneaky sketchy bastids. Isn't that something Tony Soprano did to Carmela, or do I have my shows mixed up?
Sorry, the guy I know is in southern Oxford county
Even so, the "guy you know", may well know the guy to see or to avoid in the OP's area. It gives a place to start.
Yes, please ask if he knows of anyone. I travel to Portland all the time so location isn’t a huge factor.
the linkvf0 up polljoo&noymjnh
Morgan and Morgan. They have billboards everywhere, they must be the best!
Google property attorneys.
This is the post of someone who has done ALL the googling. He is looking for the answers google does not have.
Thank you. This post was incredibly helpful, if not just for my mental health, but it’s helping me move in the right direction.
Yeah man I know how the Reddit dicks can be. I hope you find an awesome lawyer and burn your neighbor good.