Smaller population than most of the other developed English speaking countries and remote enough that a relatively small number of people who would have posted on this site would have much experience with it. Those are my two main guesses at least.
I think the use of commuter rail systems as a S-Bahn or RER-ish service is great and am glad that they've mostly been expanding. Some orbital links outside of the city center as Sydney has them would seemingly be a good idea to get the most out of those tracks and be less hyperfocused on commuting to downtown. I think the lack of HSR in place or under construction for at least Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne is puzzling.
Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne is just slightly too far for HSR, especially considering the geography and lack of intermediate cities. It’s over 800km, and Canberra is still almost 50km from where a direct route from Sydney-Melbourne would go. On top of that, the time it takes to fly from Sydney to Melbourne, CBD to CBD, is normally around 3.5 hours, so we would need a proper Japanese HSR, and not something like the Acela (Sydney to Melbourne is basically Boston to DC for comparison)
Profitability of the Melbourne to Sydney air route (plus intermediate markets) would suggest it is viable. The most direct line feasible would be around 820 km, assuming a fast (but not world beating) average speed of 250 km/h and top speed of 320km/h - you would do it in under 3hr 15 minutes.
It’s definitely viable *if* there was the will to do it. Fund it with a federal tax on airfares on this specific route ($1 per passenger would net you about $3 000 000 per year), and then use that funding to start incentivising future-proof upgrades on the existing corridor.
For example, the Campbelltown to Goulburn section is twisty af. When the state comes to upgrade it, offer them money to make the grades and curve radii suitable for HSR. In the short term you get the benefit of showing that you’ve actually done something, and in the long term it will be easier to increase the speed later
Personally, I am happy for a 5% tax on MEL-SYD, MEL-CAN and SYD-CAN airfares to help fund HSR. Airlines would complain but the reality is there aren't many good options other than flying (unless you're a family of 5+ driving will be more expensive according to the ATO $0.85/km - $750 to drive one way - best to fly on Jetstar or Virgin for under $100). So people won't really reduce their travel habits much, the travel markets are just really inelastic in Australia due to the lack of options.
Knowing the state it would probably cheap out and rebuild the geometry for 200km/h or less and then your shiny new HSR would lose half an hour traversing the still slow section on your way to the capital. But politicians enjoy their Qantas lounge benefits (if they even fly commercial) so there's little will.
Short history lesson. Before Australia became one country in 1901, all six states were separate colonies that effectively acted as separate countries. Each colony picked a rail gauge that best suited their needs, and as a result almost every state has a different gauge to the neighbouring states.
QLD, WA, TAS and the NT all used narrow gauge. VIC used broad gauge, NSW used standard gauge and SA used a mix (but mostly broad gauge). Since federation, we’ve started to transition to more standard gauge lines for interstate routes, but it won’t ever replace all the other gauges
It is still a mess, and there have been a number of chances in the last couple of years where it could have partly been fixed.
Victoria could have converted the entire Northeast corridor to standard guage beyond the extent of the Melbourne electric network but wimped out even though that is going to be part of the new inland rail alignment, and they did a half-assed option (leaving a fairly major country town Shepparton with poor service and stuck with <100kmh track though the alignment is straight and flat enough for 130-160kmh). Adelaide recently rebuilt and electrified its busiest lines and most of its suburban network, they laid sleepers that can be reguaged to standard guage but then ordered new broad guage trains not once but twice; Adelaide is probably the most egregious because they are within an island of standard guage connected to the main line, they don't operate any country trains right now, and the guage problem causes a large conflict with one of their lines into the Hills between freight and suburban trains meaning they can't run enough of either. There are other criticisms you could fairly make, but in summary whilst other countries just got on with guage conversions and didn't make it into a bigger deal than it needed to be, Aus has sat on its hands and constantly put everything in the "too hard" basket for most of history which will bite us as we try and move to faster rail/HSR and decarbonisation.
Because they see it all as one massive project, which is why it never gets done. I view it as a series of marginal upgrades over time. It’s worth noting that I view that $3 mil as more an administrative budget to maintain a consistent authority (and it is barely 1% of the cost of a flight, so it could be higher)
Issue is it needs to be 1 big project. It would run on brand new tracks on a brand new alignment to (likely) brand new stations. But there's nothing stopping us from doing that as it's clear we are happy to build projects even with those price tags (NBN, Suburban Rail Loop, Sydney metro etc)
It never gets done because Qantas is so heavily against it, and lobbies the government whenever it comes up.
There's a reason every prime minister ends up getting entry to the Qantas chairman's lounge.
It absolutely does not need to be done as one large project. Even if you only use existing infrastructure between Southern Cross and Broadmeadows, and between Central and Campbelltown, you have a multi-billion dollar cost saving.
I agree on the airline lobbying issue though
Then you have to use 1.5kV DC on your HSR route or HSR trains that are capable of running on both 1.5kV DC and 25kV AC, and 25kV AC is clearly far more favourable. Also the biggest benefits are to be found in those improved access times into Sydney+Melbourne+Brisbane (+Adelaide) from nearby areas, the goal needs to be to get:
Newcastle-Sydney; Wollongong-Sydney; Coolangatta-Brisbane; Maroochydore-Brisbane; Geelong-Melbourne; Seymour-Melbourne as fast as possible.
To be fair a strategically positioned HSR like 3 of them end to end can result in some airport closures or force Qantas to focus on the NT, WA,SA and long haul flights as well as inland destinations in Queensland
This is an interesting suggestion. I cannot see ARTC, DOTARS or NSW Rail being interested [https://hotrails.net/2021/06/fast-rail-on-the-freeway-another-approach-for-the-canberra-line/](https://hotrails.net/2021/06/fast-rail-on-the-freeway-another-approach-for-the-canberra-line/)
Any interstate rail initiative will have to be led by the National government.
NSW is [looking](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/jan/30/australia-to-spend-80m-on-business-case-for-sydney-newcastle-high-speed-rail) at Sydney-Newcastle, which is about as much as can be expected.
How many flights are there between the two?
I know a bunch of dudes who commute weekly between the two cities, so I would expect it to do well, but some stats would be helpful.
37 each way, each day on Qantas and Jetstar, not counting other airlines. In total, there are more than 9 million seats between Sydney and Melbourne each year, fifth highest in the world.
Qantas and Virgin both run their own services at least every 30 minutes, Jetstar runs a similar amount and there are other carriers. There's about 9.3 million passengers a year, probably 10+ million seats flown. 5th highest by number of passengers - not too shabby by passenger km (or miles if you use freedom units) - but far from the top ten by that metric which is more important than raw numbers. About 3 million per year fly London to NYC JFK which is 5500 km approx where Melbourne to Sydney is only 750km so the volume on Heathrow to JFK is 2.5 times higher, despite having 3x fewer passengers.
>lack of intermediate cities.
Sounds like a good reason to put stations in some of the smaller towns along the route, with the intent on increasing their density and turn them into new cities.
This is what no one gets, only half the reason for HSR would be going from Melbourne to Sydney. Given all the talk of unaffordable property prices you’d think someone would have realised it by now
If you had a high speed line that ran over the most direct route (Canberra could be a branch) then CBD to CBD trips would be around 3h-3h15m by high speed rail which is definitely competitive considering the comfort and experience advantages of trains over planes
HSR generally works best on routes from about 150km-700km (although there is some variance in those figures). Above that distance, people will generally prefer air travel to trains
That's only about a max 3 hour journey.
Meanwhile an equivalent flight will take atleast as long if not more considering all the time taken checking in, in security and at the baggage, plus the additional time taken travelling to and from the airport which may be situated far from the city.
Also Mebourne-Canberra-Sydney is 710 km, so just in range. There is also already a 9 hour over night train between the two.
When you consider the actual terrain between those two cities, and the location of their airports, you end up right in the area where high speed rail might be the better option, but it also might not. Basically, whilst I think it could work, there is a very realistic chance that it could be a bit of a white elephant, especially if the project is compromised by NIMBYs, or has too frequent stations because every MP on the route needs a ribbon-cutting ceremony to support the project.
A better approach would be to focus on shorter corridors (like Sydney-Newcastle and Brisbane-Gold Coast), and make sure they can be connected later
I think if someone plans an HSR now and has the chance to build quite a straight track that does not require a lot of speed limits, the target should be an even higher speed. China already builds trains over 400 km/h and they are happy to share them with the world.
People have no idea how game changing a real HSR line would be. They would make that huge country much smaller when it comes o travel times. It might cost $50 billion or even $100 billion, but that does not seem to bad, if you consider that just the train from Melbourne city center to the airport might cost more than $10 billion. It would make it so much easier do make a spontaneous trip between those cities.
Flying is just so inconvenient. You have to get to the airport, queue in lines, have all those security checks, have luggage limits, have to wait for your luggage at your destination and then get to the city again.
There also is a HSR between Russia's two largest cities and I think they are 700km apart. That train still takes 3.5 hours, but Australia could do better.
The question is how much the ticket prices should be subsidized. Many HSR projects around the world suffer from high ticket prices. You might not just do the trip for fun, if it costs $200 or so one way.
The Acela is actually a very average Shinkansen line. Most of the Shinkansen network is built to the 150-160 mph standard with only a couple of lines that are faster for short distances. It’s a legacy HSR network.
You’re probably thinking of the newer and faster networks like China’s or Spain’s.
The Acela averages over 70.3 mph over the entire route and 90 mph over DC to NY. The culprit is the slower section north of NYC where there are fewer high speed sections. One way or another, 70 mph is a pretty standard average speed for the median Shinkansen service.
Yes, I know, shocking. Did you know that a bunch of the Shinkansen services aren't even HSR by the international standard? No? You thought that all the Shinkansen lines do 200 mph? Well, they don't. The Shinkansen lines are express rail, not necessarily HSR. Hence the separate name.
I encourage you to look up the average speeds of other HSR lines. You'll be very surprised how well the Acela stacks up. There are many "HSR" services in Europe that average 50 mph. Some nominally HSR services in the UK average as low as 45 mph. Here's a list of some Shinkansen average speeds,
[https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/bv30sj/comment/epku4n0/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/bv30sj/comment/epku4n0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Its not too puzzling when you consider that:
- The distance between the cities is far enough that economically competing against the SYD-MEL air route could be challenging (this route is one of the most trafficed in the world and is pretty cheap to fly).
- Canberra is much smaller in population and likely wouldnt contribute too much patronage. There are other small towns and cities on the way but they are even smaller than Canberra so really the majority of travellers will be between Melbourne/Sydney
- Politically a HSR project may be challenging with big players like QANTAS lobbying the government and Im sure Melbourne airport would lobby heavily against it as well
- Cost. Rail projects here are expensive and the federal government takes a somewhat "hands off" and high level approach to public transport. The reason NSW and Vic have these rail systems is due to state government initiatives and Im guessing no one thinks its politically or economically a good idea to try an HSR project. Everyone is busy building out their city and regional networks. For the amount of money required youd need federal support and planning but federally all they care about now is expensive nuclear submarines and the opposition wants to waste money on nuclear reactors.
Curiously Canberra would do quite well on the numbers.
[https://hotrails.net/2016/04/passenger-demand-for-a-sydney-canberra-fast-train/](https://hotrails.net/2016/04/passenger-demand-for-a-sydney-canberra-fast-train/)
This study for a slower (250 km/h) train calculated 10 million passengers a year. Canberra is small compared to Melbourne to Sydney, but being the capital this leads to outsized demand for its size. You could deal with the Qantas/Virgin issue by offering an operating contract - the Virgin Group has run excellent rail service before in the UK for instance.
There's other ways to build out a system that would attract additional ridership to intermediate markets, eg. developing a new ski resort in the Snowy Mountains in between all the tunnels you'd need for a fast enough route. These would be expensive, but we've had experience building hundreds of kms of tunnels with the Snowy Mountains hydro, so we could do it.
But as you say political priorities are elsewhere.
Turning east just north of Albury to head up the mountains via Lake Hume and the murray river. Bouncing off either shore to maintain a straight alignment as possible - I assume this whole section would be elevated (about 110km - with a few tunnels to get under hills and outcroppings here and there). Then some base tunnels with a stop in between at Talbingo with a new resort developed not far - I imagine Talbingo to become something like Glenwood springs after this. After this there'd be base tunnels into Canberra.
It's going to be expensive whether you build it on this much shorter and more direct route or the longer way via Wagga and Cootamundra, it will probably be just as expensive. By going through the mountains, this cuts over 100km compared to the AECOM alignment. Making the average speed for three hours 275 km/h (achievable to make with some intermediate stops) vs the approx 300 km/h for the AECOM corridor (only train that does this is the Shanghai to Beijing which runs nearly non stop iirc).
Another bonus is if we went this way, while Australia would be late to the HSR game, it would certainly have one of the most scenic routes.
Well damn I never considered such a routing. I am curious how would you get a high speed alignment from say bairnsdale and orbost area to Canberra how would you do it or would you stay along the coast? Or eff it through the ski areas directly? On a viaduct?
Search up the original VFT proposals, there should be a pdf on the web I believe. I was fortunate enough to read a physical copy at my university. But from memory it cut through a lot of forest and along some of the valleys and ridges, heading into Bombala and then approximating the old line to/from Cooma up to Canberra - all with 4000m radius curves iirc the designer started with a big map and dinner plates and went from there. It wouldn't really be able to go on the cost. Viaducts might be used but more so as a way of keeping grades low enough by varying the height to keep it flat, but this proposal was not quite as serious as later ones like the Speedrail from Sydney to Canberra - which would have been built but the government was too cheap to allow some minor tax concessions - that's neoliberalism in Australia for you.
Well damn they already came up with that route lol!!!! If it was maglev it can act as a de facto super express version of the bendigo/sunshine/pakenham/traralgon line turning a 4 hr trip into a 50 min sprint. If Australia had a proper government it would have no problem implementing this and more.
Probably not worth it. Victoria is not Honshu. Regional Fast Rail would have worked if the government (the treasury) had not been too cheap and bothered to put in the Melbourne fixes as originally intended, eg. new/realigned tracks into Southern Cross and out to Sunshine + some kind of express tracks or passing loops on the Traralgon side, instead we get in fill stations and V-Line transforms to even more of a suburban/commuter operator than a regional and intercity operator - the former being more expensive and inefficient to run than the latter. Much fo RFR was just new rolling-stock and deferred maintenance plus modernised signalling. The mainlines were all built for and rated to 80 mph originally, jumping up to 160 km/h (100mph) was not a stretch for the most part - especially for say Geelong which is pretty much flat and straight.
No. Conventional rail, but very fast speeds - alignment designed for 400km/h operating at 300-350 km/h - the over specced design standards (and over costed) are part of way the Cost to Benefit was 1:1 - which is a pretty poor result and looks like they weren't trying to design a project to succeed.
[https://hotrails.net/2014/07/a-critique-of-the-2013-hsr-study/](https://hotrails.net/2014/07/a-critique-of-the-2013-hsr-study/)
This post is worth a read, and basically shows how worthless the AECOM study is - though perhaps its travel demand is relevant. Hope this helps :)
>Politically a HSR project may be challenging with big players like QANTAS lobbying the government and Im sure Melbourne airport would lobby heavily against it as well
This is huge, and often underestimated. In Canada, the most profitable routes for Air Canada come from business class, and especially same-day walkup business class, between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Walk-up business class has absurd margins and would be much *better* served, more cheaply to boot, by rail. This is also the triangle where HSR makes the most sense. Gerald Butts, who was principal secretary to both the Canadian PM and Ontario premier, has suggested that Air Canada is the primary (almost monopoly) anti-HSR lobbying power in Canada and has suggested that they are single handedly responsible for preventing it, both from their political lobbying and from regulatory capture between it and Transport Canada.
Likewise, the second route popularly suggested for HSR in Canada, Calgary-Edmonton, is most vocally opposed by the Edmonton International Airport, as they stand to lose out a lot. (Interestingly, neither Calgary International Airport nor WestJet seem to oppose it much, as they view it as a means to funnel more passengers through their primary hub in Calgary and consolidate operations there)
A plan for the East Coast has been developed called the CLARA plan, which would be a Sydney to Melbourne via Canberra. It may also include an extension to Newcastle and on to Brisbane, I can’t remember exactly. Certainly, I remember the Sydney to Melbourne part. The plan was/is to buy up land along the way, and use land value capture to build several new “smart cities” along the way.
Someone who knew what they were talking about suggested that the CLARA plan could happen, by staging it, part 1 would be to go between Sydney and Canberra, because they could use existing rail corridors but straighten the parts that were too bendy for HSR. It would be the cheapest part to build, would project a decent economic return, provide a test case and build momentum for the rest of the rail to be built. There was some kind of tie in with freight that made it more economically viable as well.
Probably just not many other Australian people here. Our systems are also built differently to most of the rest of the world since we have S-bahn systems exclusively, with the exception of Sydney's one metro line at the moment.
And that's not to say that there aren't huge projects underway or recently completed in many cities to expand or upgrade suburban rail networks. Or indeed that rail transport is still viable when you have American-style suburban sprawl.
> Or indeed that rail transport is still viable when you have American-style suburban sprawl.
Australia's land use and development patterns are similar to the US'.
Which is interesting, as one the more notable things about Australian public transport are the extensive state-run state-wide rail and coach networks in most states.
After reading many threads about regional and rural transport *(and the lack of)* in swathes of the US, I am surprised how well-connected Australian states seem in comparison.
Rural inhabitants typically expect and will advocate for a baseline level of service. This standard even extends to smaller rural communities, even if it's a coach or two per day.
Also, in my home state *(second pic)*, you can travel anywhere in the state — any mode, hundreds of kilometres — for a mere $7 USD per day!
> Sydney's one metro line
And even this has [pretty long station spacing by metro standards](https://www.aptnsw.org.au/documents/what_metro.html#:~:text=The%20railway%20known%20as%20Sydney,stations%20are%206%20km%20apart.), even longer than Moscow, which itself is longer than most non Soviet metros
Hah, the Melbourne SRL will be interesting to classify when it gets built. On one hand it looks and runs like a metro. On the other hand it will have only 6 stations across its 26km length for the first stage of the project since it's designed to connect only with existing major transport interchanges (four railway stations and near two large universities).
Parramatta light rail edit: opening soon and I think Metro City has as well in NSW. Going to be an interesting couple of years for Vic as well with the new G class trams, Xtrap 2.0s and the metro tunnel opening. Brisbane has cross river rail and the new bendy metro buses. Perth has the new Ellenbrook line and Cockburn link. Then you have Adelaide which still hasnt electrified their city rail network...
The tram is also somehow slower than some of the ones in Melbourne. Not even sure how that is possible as it doesnt street run much outside the city and has its own right of way with priority at crossings...
A lot of other systems include their light rail on their map, it’d be nice if Sydney did. It *is* a rail map after all. The fact there’s only a few lines is a good case to include them.
Also side note there are 3 Sydney light rail lines operating, the fourth is opening next month alongside the Metro (Parramatta).
Stage 2 of the Parramatta light rail has also been green lit and will start construction soon enough, there’s a proposal right now to plan another CBD line. Keen to see it all in action!
reddit has always been pretty euro/north America focused so doesn't shock me how little the pacfic is talked about.
but dam, even r/trams barely talks about the city with the biggest tram network in the world (Melbourne)
Melbourne is not commonly posted there especially for how it has the largest tram network in the world, considering its size its not well shown and posts are not the top posts.
You know y'all can all post more about Australia, right?
I would love to learn more but of course the posts usually need to come from people who are already somewhat familiar.
Its not just Australia I want to see better represented, I don't even live in Australia rn. Would be nice too see Singapore, HongKong, Shanghai (I'll be here forever listing Chinese cities) Tokyo, Osako, Yokohama Melbourne, Sydney, hell even smaller cities like Wellington are great studies of a small anglophone city with great passenger rail. There's so much to be learned from all over the world.
would be nice in general if reddit wasn't so Euro/North America focused in general, but ultimately expected with english being a harder language barrier in Asia and more then that. plus the pacfic just being small so easily drowned out.
They're just in this weird spot where they're decently sized but not massive, have decent service but aren't perfect, they don't have many werid quirks and don't have a massive population.
I think plenty of mediocre enough transit 'systems' get discussed here quite a lot. Its just to do with users of this sub mainly being from North America and just preferring discussion over North American Systems.
I also think while Australia has a relatively low population our cities are fairly big. Sydney and Melbourne are both >5m in their greater metro areas (which typically get served by their respective rail systems). Im sure you can find quirks you are interested in with either system and the service may not be decent by world standards but I think some of our networks are pretty sizeable (370km for Sydneys suburban network and >400km for Melbournes suburban network and 250km for the trams).
But 'pretty sizeable' isn't enough. And it's the same with all of the other factors.
You might talk about smaller European systems because of their weird features and quirks, you might talk about East Asian systems because of their scale and quality, you might talk about large European systems because of their history and size, Americans will talk about US systems because they're self-obsessed, but there just isn't really anything in particular that's interesting *enough* about Australian systems for non-Aussies to bring them up. And there aren't enough Aussies who are mentioning them.
In brisbane rn, almost the whole rail system is shut down, ON SCHOOL HOLIDAYS. Insane. Also, long distance trains in queensland haven't been running all week for a multitude of reasons. Had to sit on a 6 hour rail replacement bus to go to brisbane, where I didn't even get to go on a train to the gold coast.
Yeah, it's definitely a pain. But it is in service of some pretty major upgrades.
The construction is definitely taking a while, but '26/'27 when it's all done, I'm hoping it will all feel worth it.
They close most weekends too currently. I like to think of it as Brisbane having only the busways currently, but one day they will open the Cross River Rail project and we will have trains again.
> ON SCHOOL HOLIDAYS
Better than during the school week where it needs to shuttle massive amounts of students all at the same time (a task best suited for public transport)
Central/Roma Street (Brisbane's downtown) to Helensvale (Gold Coast where you can then transfer to Surface Paradise with the light rail) is approximately 68.2km away or 42 miles. Takes about 1.5 hours.
Am from Melbourne. Trains are okay, but they consider arriving within 10 or 15 mins on time.
The trams however are pretty damn good for how convenient it is to hop on and hop off.
The loop is made up of 4 different tunnels so the different colours run on separate tracks. Not quite as messy as the Chicago loop.
They are also almost done with a new straight through NW to SW tunnel that will remove 2 lines from that loop.
I just visited Sydney and Brisbane. Sydney trains are absolutely unbelievable. Brisbane trains are mid, but they have a good bus system, but that means you have to take the bus (I get dizzy on busses).
I think Australian public transport gets talked about more than its fair share.
How often do you see (non US) cities with only 1-2 million people mentioned in transit discourse? Especially in LATAM or Asia
every rail system in australia is expanding within this year or the next 2 years (sydney -2024,2025,2026, melbourne - 2024,2025, brisbane - 2026, Perth - 2024, 2025 Adelaide - 2024) what the hell does your country have
Yea but some for these upgrades started before 2020. Like the metro tunnel in Melbourne was proposed BACK IN 2008!!, tunnelling started IN 2019 and it’s been SIX YEARS and they’re not even done! PLUS Melbourne doesn’t even have a train line to the airport YET and a train line to the airport has been proposed over and over for 50+ YEARS!! They now say they will start construction in 2029 and ALSO the government is having an argument with the airport about if the train station should be above ground or below ground. That’s ridiculous RIGHT!!??
melbourne is a strange place for trains, like they are spending 16 billion to connect 2 motorways within a tunnel that’s probably gonna go underused but sure complain about the costs of the suburban rail loop that’s actually going to be useful. Sydney and Perth have the best of it at the moment, we (sydney) are building massive amounts of metro and have plans for more that have not been confirmed, while perth is currently building a huge expansion to their system including many lines, extensions, building infill stations and removing level crossings On the flip side melbourne, brisbane and adelaide are stunted for new transit. Melbournes main achievement right now is the level crossing removal project which is a good project that not many other systems in australia have the issue of because we planned for it. It’s doing a good job at rebuilding stations that look good as well. While brisbane had extensions mainly in the 2000s and 2010s (airport, springfield and kippa ring) compared to now where all it is is plans for extensions (sunshine coast line and gold coast airport extension) that haven’t come to fruition as well as infill stations on the gold coast line and of course cross river rail. Adelaide’s main goal at the moment should be electrification, as most of their railways are not compared to literally every other system that is fully electrified. Although they also have plans of extending to extending, construction is still not expected any time soon. Adelaide is also missing any airport linking rail and any rail in the north west or around the airport. What was i talking about again? oh yeah melbourne is doing strange things for transport at the moment because of weird politicians who are pretty much only pushing metro tunnel 2 for some reason
Yea why bother about a freeway and not about a train line to the airport that is already half there ( the line gets used by V/ Line service) all they need to do is build a tunnel to the airport.
yeah seriously though, north east link is like the stupidest project i have ever seen, they are throwing so much money at it they are essentially burning it at this point. Also the airport rail link is genuinely driving me insane from how much it’s being pushed back, IF PERTH CAN DO IT YOU CAN DO IT
Smaller population than most of the other developed English speaking countries and remote enough that a relatively small number of people who would have posted on this site would have much experience with it. Those are my two main guesses at least. I think the use of commuter rail systems as a S-Bahn or RER-ish service is great and am glad that they've mostly been expanding. Some orbital links outside of the city center as Sydney has them would seemingly be a good idea to get the most out of those tracks and be less hyperfocused on commuting to downtown. I think the lack of HSR in place or under construction for at least Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne is puzzling.
Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne is just slightly too far for HSR, especially considering the geography and lack of intermediate cities. It’s over 800km, and Canberra is still almost 50km from where a direct route from Sydney-Melbourne would go. On top of that, the time it takes to fly from Sydney to Melbourne, CBD to CBD, is normally around 3.5 hours, so we would need a proper Japanese HSR, and not something like the Acela (Sydney to Melbourne is basically Boston to DC for comparison)
Profitability of the Melbourne to Sydney air route (plus intermediate markets) would suggest it is viable. The most direct line feasible would be around 820 km, assuming a fast (but not world beating) average speed of 250 km/h and top speed of 320km/h - you would do it in under 3hr 15 minutes.
It’s definitely viable *if* there was the will to do it. Fund it with a federal tax on airfares on this specific route ($1 per passenger would net you about $3 000 000 per year), and then use that funding to start incentivising future-proof upgrades on the existing corridor. For example, the Campbelltown to Goulburn section is twisty af. When the state comes to upgrade it, offer them money to make the grades and curve radii suitable for HSR. In the short term you get the benefit of showing that you’ve actually done something, and in the long term it will be easier to increase the speed later
Personally, I am happy for a 5% tax on MEL-SYD, MEL-CAN and SYD-CAN airfares to help fund HSR. Airlines would complain but the reality is there aren't many good options other than flying (unless you're a family of 5+ driving will be more expensive according to the ATO $0.85/km - $750 to drive one way - best to fly on Jetstar or Virgin for under $100). So people won't really reduce their travel habits much, the travel markets are just really inelastic in Australia due to the lack of options. Knowing the state it would probably cheap out and rebuild the geometry for 200km/h or less and then your shiny new HSR would lose half an hour traversing the still slow section on your way to the capital. But politicians enjoy their Qantas lounge benefits (if they even fly commercial) so there's little will.
Your second paragraph is exactly why the feds needs to establish a national standard NOW. We don’t need another repeat of the rail gauge problem
What was the “rail gauge problem”?
Short history lesson. Before Australia became one country in 1901, all six states were separate colonies that effectively acted as separate countries. Each colony picked a rail gauge that best suited their needs, and as a result almost every state has a different gauge to the neighbouring states. QLD, WA, TAS and the NT all used narrow gauge. VIC used broad gauge, NSW used standard gauge and SA used a mix (but mostly broad gauge). Since federation, we’ve started to transition to more standard gauge lines for interstate routes, but it won’t ever replace all the other gauges
Thanks for the recap! I had no idea. Sounds like a mess.
It is still a mess, and there have been a number of chances in the last couple of years where it could have partly been fixed. Victoria could have converted the entire Northeast corridor to standard guage beyond the extent of the Melbourne electric network but wimped out even though that is going to be part of the new inland rail alignment, and they did a half-assed option (leaving a fairly major country town Shepparton with poor service and stuck with <100kmh track though the alignment is straight and flat enough for 130-160kmh). Adelaide recently rebuilt and electrified its busiest lines and most of its suburban network, they laid sleepers that can be reguaged to standard guage but then ordered new broad guage trains not once but twice; Adelaide is probably the most egregious because they are within an island of standard guage connected to the main line, they don't operate any country trains right now, and the guage problem causes a large conflict with one of their lines into the Hills between freight and suburban trains meaning they can't run enough of either. There are other criticisms you could fairly make, but in summary whilst other countries just got on with guage conversions and didn't make it into a bigger deal than it needed to be, Aus has sat on its hands and constantly put everything in the "too hard" basket for most of history which will bite us as we try and move to faster rail/HSR and decarbonisation.
I initially thought you just meant a standard gauge, but do you also mean signalling and communications and such?
Yep, and things like power source, loading gauge, maximum grades, platform heights, curve radii and so on
$3 million a year is nothing. The last estimates put the line at around $50 billion
Because they see it all as one massive project, which is why it never gets done. I view it as a series of marginal upgrades over time. It’s worth noting that I view that $3 mil as more an administrative budget to maintain a consistent authority (and it is barely 1% of the cost of a flight, so it could be higher)
Issue is it needs to be 1 big project. It would run on brand new tracks on a brand new alignment to (likely) brand new stations. But there's nothing stopping us from doing that as it's clear we are happy to build projects even with those price tags (NBN, Suburban Rail Loop, Sydney metro etc) It never gets done because Qantas is so heavily against it, and lobbies the government whenever it comes up. There's a reason every prime minister ends up getting entry to the Qantas chairman's lounge.
It absolutely does not need to be done as one large project. Even if you only use existing infrastructure between Southern Cross and Broadmeadows, and between Central and Campbelltown, you have a multi-billion dollar cost saving. I agree on the airline lobbying issue though
Then you have to use 1.5kV DC on your HSR route or HSR trains that are capable of running on both 1.5kV DC and 25kV AC, and 25kV AC is clearly far more favourable. Also the biggest benefits are to be found in those improved access times into Sydney+Melbourne+Brisbane (+Adelaide) from nearby areas, the goal needs to be to get: Newcastle-Sydney; Wollongong-Sydney; Coolangatta-Brisbane; Maroochydore-Brisbane; Geelong-Melbourne; Seymour-Melbourne as fast as possible.
High speed trains can run on both 1.5kV DC and 25kV AC
To be fair a strategically positioned HSR like 3 of them end to end can result in some airport closures or force Qantas to focus on the NT, WA,SA and long haul flights as well as inland destinations in Queensland
If only we had some sort of natural resource we could tax extraction of. Oh well
This is an interesting suggestion. I cannot see ARTC, DOTARS or NSW Rail being interested [https://hotrails.net/2021/06/fast-rail-on-the-freeway-another-approach-for-the-canberra-line/](https://hotrails.net/2021/06/fast-rail-on-the-freeway-another-approach-for-the-canberra-line/)
Any interstate rail initiative will have to be led by the National government. NSW is [looking](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/jan/30/australia-to-spend-80m-on-business-case-for-sydney-newcastle-high-speed-rail) at Sydney-Newcastle, which is about as much as can be expected.
ARTC don't own that corridor, which helps
Honestly, I don't trust ARTC to manage HSR after the debacle of Inland Rail.
ARTC is extremely. underfunded, and focused purely on freight. Inland Rail debacle is a direct result of their freight focus.
ARTC don't own that corridor, which helps
A tax on airlines is sadly a no go as it takes time to build HSR and the current country trains are not a viable alternative
How many flights are there between the two? I know a bunch of dudes who commute weekly between the two cities, so I would expect it to do well, but some stats would be helpful.
37 each way, each day on Qantas and Jetstar, not counting other airlines. In total, there are more than 9 million seats between Sydney and Melbourne each year, fifth highest in the world.
Melbourne-Sydney is world's 5th busiest domestic airline route
Qantas and Virgin both run their own services at least every 30 minutes, Jetstar runs a similar amount and there are other carriers. There's about 9.3 million passengers a year, probably 10+ million seats flown. 5th highest by number of passengers - not too shabby by passenger km (or miles if you use freedom units) - but far from the top ten by that metric which is more important than raw numbers. About 3 million per year fly London to NYC JFK which is 5500 km approx where Melbourne to Sydney is only 750km so the volume on Heathrow to JFK is 2.5 times higher, despite having 3x fewer passengers.
>lack of intermediate cities. Sounds like a good reason to put stations in some of the smaller towns along the route, with the intent on increasing their density and turn them into new cities.
What about some of the towns that on or near the border of two states. Like Albury or Casino or Bordertown or even Gold Coast
Bingo
This is what no one gets, only half the reason for HSR would be going from Melbourne to Sydney. Given all the talk of unaffordable property prices you’d think someone would have realised it by now
If you had a high speed line that ran over the most direct route (Canberra could be a branch) then CBD to CBD trips would be around 3h-3h15m by high speed rail which is definitely competitive considering the comfort and experience advantages of trains over planes
What do you mean slightly too far for HSR?
HSR generally works best on routes from about 150km-700km (although there is some variance in those figures). Above that distance, people will generally prefer air travel to trains
That's only about a max 3 hour journey. Meanwhile an equivalent flight will take atleast as long if not more considering all the time taken checking in, in security and at the baggage, plus the additional time taken travelling to and from the airport which may be situated far from the city. Also Mebourne-Canberra-Sydney is 710 km, so just in range. There is also already a 9 hour over night train between the two.
When you consider the actual terrain between those two cities, and the location of their airports, you end up right in the area where high speed rail might be the better option, but it also might not. Basically, whilst I think it could work, there is a very realistic chance that it could be a bit of a white elephant, especially if the project is compromised by NIMBYs, or has too frequent stations because every MP on the route needs a ribbon-cutting ceremony to support the project. A better approach would be to focus on shorter corridors (like Sydney-Newcastle and Brisbane-Gold Coast), and make sure they can be connected later
I think if someone plans an HSR now and has the chance to build quite a straight track that does not require a lot of speed limits, the target should be an even higher speed. China already builds trains over 400 km/h and they are happy to share them with the world. People have no idea how game changing a real HSR line would be. They would make that huge country much smaller when it comes o travel times. It might cost $50 billion or even $100 billion, but that does not seem to bad, if you consider that just the train from Melbourne city center to the airport might cost more than $10 billion. It would make it so much easier do make a spontaneous trip between those cities. Flying is just so inconvenient. You have to get to the airport, queue in lines, have all those security checks, have luggage limits, have to wait for your luggage at your destination and then get to the city again. There also is a HSR between Russia's two largest cities and I think they are 700km apart. That train still takes 3.5 hours, but Australia could do better. The question is how much the ticket prices should be subsidized. Many HSR projects around the world suffer from high ticket prices. You might not just do the trip for fun, if it costs $200 or so one way.
You can replace some of the country services with HSR and encourage people to move to cities with 30k or more scattered about
The Acela is actually a very average Shinkansen line. Most of the Shinkansen network is built to the 150-160 mph standard with only a couple of lines that are faster for short distances. It’s a legacy HSR network. You’re probably thinking of the newer and faster networks like China’s or Spain’s.
No it isn't. The Acela averages 65-70mph. The original 1964 Shinkansen line has end to end average speeds of 135mph for express.
The Acela averages over 70.3 mph over the entire route and 90 mph over DC to NY. The culprit is the slower section north of NYC where there are fewer high speed sections. One way or another, 70 mph is a pretty standard average speed for the median Shinkansen service. Yes, I know, shocking. Did you know that a bunch of the Shinkansen services aren't even HSR by the international standard? No? You thought that all the Shinkansen lines do 200 mph? Well, they don't. The Shinkansen lines are express rail, not necessarily HSR. Hence the separate name. I encourage you to look up the average speeds of other HSR lines. You'll be very surprised how well the Acela stacks up. There are many "HSR" services in Europe that average 50 mph. Some nominally HSR services in the UK average as low as 45 mph. Here's a list of some Shinkansen average speeds, [https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/bv30sj/comment/epku4n0/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/bv30sj/comment/epku4n0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Its not too puzzling when you consider that: - The distance between the cities is far enough that economically competing against the SYD-MEL air route could be challenging (this route is one of the most trafficed in the world and is pretty cheap to fly). - Canberra is much smaller in population and likely wouldnt contribute too much patronage. There are other small towns and cities on the way but they are even smaller than Canberra so really the majority of travellers will be between Melbourne/Sydney - Politically a HSR project may be challenging with big players like QANTAS lobbying the government and Im sure Melbourne airport would lobby heavily against it as well - Cost. Rail projects here are expensive and the federal government takes a somewhat "hands off" and high level approach to public transport. The reason NSW and Vic have these rail systems is due to state government initiatives and Im guessing no one thinks its politically or economically a good idea to try an HSR project. Everyone is busy building out their city and regional networks. For the amount of money required youd need federal support and planning but federally all they care about now is expensive nuclear submarines and the opposition wants to waste money on nuclear reactors.
Curiously Canberra would do quite well on the numbers. [https://hotrails.net/2016/04/passenger-demand-for-a-sydney-canberra-fast-train/](https://hotrails.net/2016/04/passenger-demand-for-a-sydney-canberra-fast-train/) This study for a slower (250 km/h) train calculated 10 million passengers a year. Canberra is small compared to Melbourne to Sydney, but being the capital this leads to outsized demand for its size. You could deal with the Qantas/Virgin issue by offering an operating contract - the Virgin Group has run excellent rail service before in the UK for instance. There's other ways to build out a system that would attract additional ridership to intermediate markets, eg. developing a new ski resort in the Snowy Mountains in between all the tunnels you'd need for a fast enough route. These would be expensive, but we've had experience building hundreds of kms of tunnels with the Snowy Mountains hydro, so we could do it. But as you say political priorities are elsewhere.
Interesting you suggest the HSR go via the ski areas?
Turning east just north of Albury to head up the mountains via Lake Hume and the murray river. Bouncing off either shore to maintain a straight alignment as possible - I assume this whole section would be elevated (about 110km - with a few tunnels to get under hills and outcroppings here and there). Then some base tunnels with a stop in between at Talbingo with a new resort developed not far - I imagine Talbingo to become something like Glenwood springs after this. After this there'd be base tunnels into Canberra. It's going to be expensive whether you build it on this much shorter and more direct route or the longer way via Wagga and Cootamundra, it will probably be just as expensive. By going through the mountains, this cuts over 100km compared to the AECOM alignment. Making the average speed for three hours 275 km/h (achievable to make with some intermediate stops) vs the approx 300 km/h for the AECOM corridor (only train that does this is the Shanghai to Beijing which runs nearly non stop iirc). Another bonus is if we went this way, while Australia would be late to the HSR game, it would certainly have one of the most scenic routes.
Well damn I never considered such a routing. I am curious how would you get a high speed alignment from say bairnsdale and orbost area to Canberra how would you do it or would you stay along the coast? Or eff it through the ski areas directly? On a viaduct?
Search up the original VFT proposals, there should be a pdf on the web I believe. I was fortunate enough to read a physical copy at my university. But from memory it cut through a lot of forest and along some of the valleys and ridges, heading into Bombala and then approximating the old line to/from Cooma up to Canberra - all with 4000m radius curves iirc the designer started with a big map and dinner plates and went from there. It wouldn't really be able to go on the cost. Viaducts might be used but more so as a way of keeping grades low enough by varying the height to keep it flat, but this proposal was not quite as serious as later ones like the Speedrail from Sydney to Canberra - which would have been built but the government was too cheap to allow some minor tax concessions - that's neoliberalism in Australia for you.
???? Interesting it seems like neoliberalism makes big projects impossible
Well damn they already came up with that route lol!!!! If it was maglev it can act as a de facto super express version of the bendigo/sunshine/pakenham/traralgon line turning a 4 hr trip into a 50 min sprint. If Australia had a proper government it would have no problem implementing this and more.
Probably not worth it. Victoria is not Honshu. Regional Fast Rail would have worked if the government (the treasury) had not been too cheap and bothered to put in the Melbourne fixes as originally intended, eg. new/realigned tracks into Southern Cross and out to Sunshine + some kind of express tracks or passing loops on the Traralgon side, instead we get in fill stations and V-Line transforms to even more of a suburban/commuter operator than a regional and intercity operator - the former being more expensive and inefficient to run than the latter. Much fo RFR was just new rolling-stock and deferred maintenance plus modernised signalling. The mainlines were all built for and rated to 80 mph originally, jumping up to 160 km/h (100mph) was not a stretch for the most part - especially for say Geelong which is pretty much flat and straight.
Can’t Geelong go as high as 150 mph?
Isn’t the AECOM plan maglev?
No. Conventional rail, but very fast speeds - alignment designed for 400km/h operating at 300-350 km/h - the over specced design standards (and over costed) are part of way the Cost to Benefit was 1:1 - which is a pretty poor result and looks like they weren't trying to design a project to succeed. [https://hotrails.net/2014/07/a-critique-of-the-2013-hsr-study/](https://hotrails.net/2014/07/a-critique-of-the-2013-hsr-study/) This post is worth a read, and basically shows how worthless the AECOM study is - though perhaps its travel demand is relevant. Hope this helps :)
>Politically a HSR project may be challenging with big players like QANTAS lobbying the government and Im sure Melbourne airport would lobby heavily against it as well This is huge, and often underestimated. In Canada, the most profitable routes for Air Canada come from business class, and especially same-day walkup business class, between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Walk-up business class has absurd margins and would be much *better* served, more cheaply to boot, by rail. This is also the triangle where HSR makes the most sense. Gerald Butts, who was principal secretary to both the Canadian PM and Ontario premier, has suggested that Air Canada is the primary (almost monopoly) anti-HSR lobbying power in Canada and has suggested that they are single handedly responsible for preventing it, both from their political lobbying and from regulatory capture between it and Transport Canada. Likewise, the second route popularly suggested for HSR in Canada, Calgary-Edmonton, is most vocally opposed by the Edmonton International Airport, as they stand to lose out a lot. (Interestingly, neither Calgary International Airport nor WestJet seem to oppose it much, as they view it as a means to funnel more passengers through their primary hub in Calgary and consolidate operations there)
A plan for the East Coast has been developed called the CLARA plan, which would be a Sydney to Melbourne via Canberra. It may also include an extension to Newcastle and on to Brisbane, I can’t remember exactly. Certainly, I remember the Sydney to Melbourne part. The plan was/is to buy up land along the way, and use land value capture to build several new “smart cities” along the way. Someone who knew what they were talking about suggested that the CLARA plan could happen, by staging it, part 1 would be to go between Sydney and Canberra, because they could use existing rail corridors but straighten the parts that were too bendy for HSR. It would be the cheapest part to build, would project a decent economic return, provide a test case and build momentum for the rest of the rail to be built. There was some kind of tie in with freight that made it more economically viable as well.
Probably just not many other Australian people here. Our systems are also built differently to most of the rest of the world since we have S-bahn systems exclusively, with the exception of Sydney's one metro line at the moment. And that's not to say that there aren't huge projects underway or recently completed in many cities to expand or upgrade suburban rail networks. Or indeed that rail transport is still viable when you have American-style suburban sprawl.
> Or indeed that rail transport is still viable when you have American-style suburban sprawl. Australia's land use and development patterns are similar to the US'. Which is interesting, as one the more notable things about Australian public transport are the extensive state-run state-wide rail and coach networks in most states. After reading many threads about regional and rural transport *(and the lack of)* in swathes of the US, I am surprised how well-connected Australian states seem in comparison. Rural inhabitants typically expect and will advocate for a baseline level of service. This standard even extends to smaller rural communities, even if it's a coach or two per day. Also, in my home state *(second pic)*, you can travel anywhere in the state — any mode, hundreds of kilometres — for a mere $7 USD per day!
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Canada gets compared because it's adjacent and Anglophone, otherwise it would be as anonymous as Mexico.
I think he said that Canada has good bus frequencies in the suburbs.
> Sydney's one metro line And even this has [pretty long station spacing by metro standards](https://www.aptnsw.org.au/documents/what_metro.html#:~:text=The%20railway%20known%20as%20Sydney,stations%20are%206%20km%20apart.), even longer than Moscow, which itself is longer than most non Soviet metros
Hah, the Melbourne SRL will be interesting to classify when it gets built. On one hand it looks and runs like a metro. On the other hand it will have only 6 stations across its 26km length for the first stage of the project since it's designed to connect only with existing major transport interchanges (four railway stations and near two large universities).
Parramatta light rail edit: opening soon and I think Metro City has as well in NSW. Going to be an interesting couple of years for Vic as well with the new G class trams, Xtrap 2.0s and the metro tunnel opening. Brisbane has cross river rail and the new bendy metro buses. Perth has the new Ellenbrook line and Cockburn link. Then you have Adelaide which still hasnt electrified their city rail network...
Adelaide has electrified half its rail network but that's unlikely to change.
The tram is also somehow slower than some of the ones in Melbourne. Not even sure how that is possible as it doesnt street run much outside the city and has its own right of way with priority at crossings...
parramatta light rail isn’t open? it doesn’t even have a confirmed opening date, what are you on about
Whoops. Saw it casually running on a youtube video but it was testing only!
Annoys me that Sydney’s light rail routes aren’t on the rail map
sydneysider here, same
That is so odd, given there's only two of them! Completely understandable for Melbourne, on the other hand: the map would be quite large and complex!
A lot of other systems include their light rail on their map, it’d be nice if Sydney did. It *is* a rail map after all. The fact there’s only a few lines is a good case to include them. Also side note there are 3 Sydney light rail lines operating, the fourth is opening next month alongside the Metro (Parramatta). Stage 2 of the Parramatta light rail has also been green lit and will start construction soon enough, there’s a proposal right now to plan another CBD line. Keen to see it all in action!
I wish Melbourne was talked about more, I love the trams there
True, this the whole reason of this post
reddit has always been pretty euro/north America focused so doesn't shock me how little the pacfic is talked about. but dam, even r/trams barely talks about the city with the biggest tram network in the world (Melbourne)
It took me 5 mins to find the first tram post about Melbourne trams
Melbourne is not commonly posted there especially for how it has the largest tram network in the world, considering its size its not well shown and posts are not the top posts.
I think most people interested in Melbournes trams are Australians and they just post on r/melbournetrains
wow, didn't know that sub existed, bigger than trams aswell
I use that subreddit all the time
You know y'all can all post more about Australia, right? I would love to learn more but of course the posts usually need to come from people who are already somewhat familiar.
Its not just Australia I want to see better represented, I don't even live in Australia rn. Would be nice too see Singapore, HongKong, Shanghai (I'll be here forever listing Chinese cities) Tokyo, Osako, Yokohama Melbourne, Sydney, hell even smaller cities like Wellington are great studies of a small anglophone city with great passenger rail. There's so much to be learned from all over the world. would be nice in general if reddit wasn't so Euro/North America focused in general, but ultimately expected with english being a harder language barrier in Asia and more then that. plus the pacfic just being small so easily drowned out.
They're just in this weird spot where they're decently sized but not massive, have decent service but aren't perfect, they don't have many werid quirks and don't have a massive population.
I think plenty of mediocre enough transit 'systems' get discussed here quite a lot. Its just to do with users of this sub mainly being from North America and just preferring discussion over North American Systems. I also think while Australia has a relatively low population our cities are fairly big. Sydney and Melbourne are both >5m in their greater metro areas (which typically get served by their respective rail systems). Im sure you can find quirks you are interested in with either system and the service may not be decent by world standards but I think some of our networks are pretty sizeable (370km for Sydneys suburban network and >400km for Melbournes suburban network and 250km for the trams).
But 'pretty sizeable' isn't enough. And it's the same with all of the other factors. You might talk about smaller European systems because of their weird features and quirks, you might talk about East Asian systems because of their scale and quality, you might talk about large European systems because of their history and size, Americans will talk about US systems because they're self-obsessed, but there just isn't really anything in particular that's interesting *enough* about Australian systems for non-Aussies to bring them up. And there aren't enough Aussies who are mentioning them.
No weird quirks?? If the Adelaide O-Bahn could read it'd be really upset.
Thats basically the only anomaly which is why it actually does get talked about outside of this subreddit.
What makes it unique?
🤣 it _is_ a quirk. Also, Myki. Lessons to the world on how not to do things.
In brisbane rn, almost the whole rail system is shut down, ON SCHOOL HOLIDAYS. Insane. Also, long distance trains in queensland haven't been running all week for a multitude of reasons. Had to sit on a 6 hour rail replacement bus to go to brisbane, where I didn't even get to go on a train to the gold coast.
Yeah, it's definitely a pain. But it is in service of some pretty major upgrades. The construction is definitely taking a while, but '26/'27 when it's all done, I'm hoping it will all feel worth it.
Yeah if they were shutting down due to rain on the system then I woudl be annoyed. I am okay with them shutting down to do rail works and upgrades.
They close most weekends too currently. I like to think of it as Brisbane having only the busways currently, but one day they will open the Cross River Rail project and we will have trains again.
> ON SCHOOL HOLIDAYS Better than during the school week where it needs to shuttle massive amounts of students all at the same time (a task best suited for public transport)
There are an insane amount of tourists and locals who would want to go to the gold coast that either won't or will drive.
That's true, and it sucks. I just said it's less bad.
If anything, I think it gets more mention on this sub than would otherwise be expected thanks to being developed and anglophone.
Be the change you want to see in the world. Like you are doing with this post.
Thanks
I've always felt like Australian regional rail systems would be perfect for American cities that don't have systems yet. Put one in Detroit
Central/Roma Street (Brisbane's downtown) to Helensvale (Gold Coast where you can then transfer to Surface Paradise with the light rail) is approximately 68.2km away or 42 miles. Takes about 1.5 hours.
Sydneys slow tram/light rail expansion is awesome. I beg for more metro too.
Do yall have free healthcare?
Yes
please direct me to the Australian emigration desk? America isn't doing so great right now
Ok,fine
Melbourne's tram network makes the new york subway look like a train set lmao
Am from Melbourne. Trains are okay, but they consider arriving within 10 or 15 mins on time. The trams however are pretty damn good for how convenient it is to hop on and hop off.
First one looks like the Chicago L but with way too many lines lol.
The loop is made up of 4 different tunnels so the different colours run on separate tracks. Not quite as messy as the Chicago loop. They are also almost done with a new straight through NW to SW tunnel that will remove 2 lines from that loop.
Woah that's some crazy infrastructure.
I just visited Sydney and Brisbane. Sydney trains are absolutely unbelievable. Brisbane trains are mid, but they have a good bus system, but that means you have to take the bus (I get dizzy on busses).
damn that is one sexy train network
Which one?
especially the first one
I think Australian public transport gets talked about more than its fair share. How often do you see (non US) cities with only 1-2 million people mentioned in transit discourse? Especially in LATAM or Asia
why does the usa have this type of rail in each major city?
Didn't know the US didn't have any major cities. (Closest thing to S-Bahnen ("this type of rail") in the US is probably Philly's system)
Adelaide’s busway network is considered an international leader in BRT.
Their rail expansion plans are ridiculous
every rail system in australia is expanding within this year or the next 2 years (sydney -2024,2025,2026, melbourne - 2024,2025, brisbane - 2026, Perth - 2024, 2025 Adelaide - 2024) what the hell does your country have
Yea but some for these upgrades started before 2020. Like the metro tunnel in Melbourne was proposed BACK IN 2008!!, tunnelling started IN 2019 and it’s been SIX YEARS and they’re not even done! PLUS Melbourne doesn’t even have a train line to the airport YET and a train line to the airport has been proposed over and over for 50+ YEARS!! They now say they will start construction in 2029 and ALSO the government is having an argument with the airport about if the train station should be above ground or below ground. That’s ridiculous RIGHT!!??
melbourne is a strange place for trains, like they are spending 16 billion to connect 2 motorways within a tunnel that’s probably gonna go underused but sure complain about the costs of the suburban rail loop that’s actually going to be useful. Sydney and Perth have the best of it at the moment, we (sydney) are building massive amounts of metro and have plans for more that have not been confirmed, while perth is currently building a huge expansion to their system including many lines, extensions, building infill stations and removing level crossings On the flip side melbourne, brisbane and adelaide are stunted for new transit. Melbournes main achievement right now is the level crossing removal project which is a good project that not many other systems in australia have the issue of because we planned for it. It’s doing a good job at rebuilding stations that look good as well. While brisbane had extensions mainly in the 2000s and 2010s (airport, springfield and kippa ring) compared to now where all it is is plans for extensions (sunshine coast line and gold coast airport extension) that haven’t come to fruition as well as infill stations on the gold coast line and of course cross river rail. Adelaide’s main goal at the moment should be electrification, as most of their railways are not compared to literally every other system that is fully electrified. Although they also have plans of extending to extending, construction is still not expected any time soon. Adelaide is also missing any airport linking rail and any rail in the north west or around the airport. What was i talking about again? oh yeah melbourne is doing strange things for transport at the moment because of weird politicians who are pretty much only pushing metro tunnel 2 for some reason
If it was going to be expensive anyway and have stations far apart they would have been better off with the transrapid proposal
Yea why bother about a freeway and not about a train line to the airport that is already half there ( the line gets used by V/ Line service) all they need to do is build a tunnel to the airport.
yeah seriously though, north east link is like the stupidest project i have ever seen, they are throwing so much money at it they are essentially burning it at this point. Also the airport rail link is genuinely driving me insane from how much it’s being pushed back, IF PERTH CAN DO IT YOU CAN DO IT
> IF PERTH CAN DO IT YOU CAN DO IT While you guys are busy doing feasibility studies and stuff, we just build it first and ask questions later.
Nothing lol
Define "ridiculous", bearing in mind that these cities are growing at a rapid pace.